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Vedavrex Misraria

Lune's page

Pathfinder Society Member. 1,795 posts. No reviews. No lists. 1 wishlist. 3 Pathfinder Society characters.


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Toppling Spell works well with Magic Missile.

Also, as others have stated... play an Arcanist.


Eltacolibre: Become a prisoner to rescue a prisoner. Hm... I like it.

What's in the box?: Many of your ideas I have already used. Some of them I haven't. Swamp gas causing them to get lost is a great idea.

I did think of doing the whole "this happens" thing. That could be problematic as well. It has the potential, I think, to make them equally upset. I will mull it over, though. Maybe do a sort of choose your own adventure type thing for a bit and their decisions lead to outcomes but the net outcome is capture. But they can make the circumstances of their capture better. Perhaps someone knows where their gear is being held. Another person knows where the keys to their shackles are at. One of them could have got word out to allies about their location.

I have some creative juices flowing now...


I agree with The Shaman. However, in PFS they don't really care what your views on such matters are. They only care what the rules state.

What race is your character? There is an Aasimar racial trait that could help...


In a home game that I am running I am planning on trying to capture the party. I was wondering if anyone has ever participated or (perhaps more valuable to me) ran a game where you did this.

I want to avoid OOC animosity from my players regarding this. However, I have never been the type of DM to run a game where every encounter is one that can be won outright. The party I am DMing for has opted to run headlong into a difficult quest without doing proper research or preparation first.

Now, originally they had to act quickly to get to the swamp that they are now in and rescue the son of a noble who had been captured in an attack that devastated a city. However, they have since rescued him and are now working to cure a blight infecting creatures of the swamp. Basically, currently there is no particular rush. I have done my best to make that clear through information given by NPCs. But I am also roleplaying the NPCs who realize that the party is their best (if not only) means of helping them. The NPCs are pleading with the party to get them to help them as soon as possible as they do not want to allow them time to leave and possibly reconsider.

The PCs have went into this situation woefully unprepared. Worse, they are not expecting any real resistance that they may not be able to deal with well. A couple examples of things that they know: they know they will have to fight "Swarmlords" and they have few ways of successfully laying damage down against swarms. They do not have an arcane caster among them and only really have one party member with a wand of fireballs CL5. Secondly, they are dealing Fey and things that have DR/Cold Iron with no cold iron weapons. This is particularly hurting the archer of the group. I feel a little bit bad for them but I can't feel too bad; they knew what they were likely to go up against and didn't properly prepare for it.

All this being said, I do not have a vendetta against the party; but neither do I want to cater to an ill prepared party. I'm not interested in doing this to prove a point; but hopefully by the end of it they do look at future situations more carefully and come better prepared. The real reason I am doing it is because it seems like a fun reprieve and a good opportunity to look at the situation they have tangled themselves into in a new light.

I guess if there is another alterior motive it would be that I have introduced several NPCs along the way whom the party has become involved in the affairs of. They have rescued some, worked with others, even been at odds with before realizing common goals. One way or another they have made some strong allies. I think it would be interesting if their party were to be captured only to have to be rescued by the NPCs that they have built strong relationships and community with. I think a fun way of doing this might be to write up character sheets for each of these NPCs and when the party gets captured to lay them out in front of them. I could make up a sort of bidding system and let them pick which NPC they want to play for this mission. Then, later, once the NPCs rescue the PCs, I will take control over the NPCs again (a bit burdensome for me) and have a nice battle royale against their captors.

I know I am taking a lot of creative license and leaning heavily on something I think may be fun without knowing if the players will or not. But don't we always do that as DMs? In fact, I think we have to.

There are some pitfalls I know I want to try to avoid. First, I want to make sure it doesn't feel railroaded. I don't think this will be a major issue plotwise as what I have planned should fall in nicely with the plot. It also makes sense from the affairs of who they are fighting and where they are at. On the other hand I don't want them to feel purposefully overwhelmed though that is exactly what is happening as there aren't a lot of good ways of capturing them without having an encounter over their APL CR.

Second, I don't want them to think that I am doing this out of any sort of animosity or anything directed at them. I also do not want them to think I am setting them up for failure. But then again, even adventurers don't always succeed in everything they do. Everyone fails sometimes.

Anyway, if anyone has any advice on this I am open to hearing it. I plan on running this on Saturday so, you know... no pressure on posting before then or anything. ;)


Ah. I was going to ask about Crafter's Fortune.

Also, thanx for the link Tamec.


Title about says it all.

Do things that add to your Craft, Profession or Perform (or whatever other skill you are using) add to your Day Job check? Are there exceptions?

Class abilities? Spells? Etc?...


BBT: To me it is mostly 7 and 9. I kinda need to know that for character building purposes.


In case anyone wants a history lesson on this topic I have a fairly thorough post from another thread here:

Lune wrote:

Ok, I just wasted two f%$^ing hours of my life trying to figure out what the hell a Scorpion Whip does. What have I accomplished in that time? Well, obviously I have become fairly annoyed but other than that, not much.

I don't honestly get upset about rulings on things ever. I can't even explain why this has me so annoyed. I think it is mostly because there is just no explanation on it.

This was the latest thread I could find on the topic so rather than starting a new one (which I may still do) I figured I would post here first as this has already been marked as a FAQ candidate multiple times.

Lets review.

This thread is a stinking pile of trash that got me started on my trek for an answer. No offense to the OP or anyone who posted in it. My animosity comes from lack of answers and increase in confusion, not towards any individuals. Nonetheless it does contain some links to developer's posts on the topic.

...including this one. We have blackbloodtroll to thank for getting those answers from JJ. Unfortunately he gave 6 answers to 7 questions and didn't number them so it is anyone's best guess as to which answers belong to which questions. So, no offense to JJ, I'm sure it was an honest mistake but due to this problem his post is a complete waste. :(

There is this additional resources section which refers to Pathfinder Society play and what is legal. Let me shorten it up for you, it says this:

Quote:

Ultimate Equipment...

The scorpion whip found in this book is no longer legal. Please refer to the Adventurer’s Armory for the legal version.

It makes no other mention of the scorpion whip anywhere else in that document.

There is also this thread. Let me shorten...


76 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 2 people marked this as a favorite.

*does his summon Paizo Devs dance*

Please Paizo, Devs. We are looking for an answer on the Scorpion Whip. These are things that have desperately needed to be answered for years an have never been made clear. I know it is just one weapon but there are a lot of people waiting to use this pending a ruling but unwilling to use it without one due to the dreaded "table variation".

I think most of these could be answered if we simply asked:
Could you give a description of everything that a Scorpion Whip can do without referencing the Whip.

...then, tell us what it can also do if you have the Whip Proficiency without referencing the Whip.

But if you have to have it in sections then consider these questions, please:
1) Does it function with Whip feats, such as Whip Mastery, or Weapon Focus(Whip)?

2) Can you deal nonlethal, without penalty?

3) Does it threaten?

4) Does it provoke when used?

5) Is it finessable?

6) Can it be enchanted, as a whip?

I'll add a couple more:

7) Does it have reach? How much? Does it threaten within all of it's reach?

8) What special materials can it be made out of?

9) Which feats that apply to Whips can apply to Scorpion Whips? (Whip Mastery line of feats, Weapon Focus, etc.)


Well, what, then, does everyone want answered? I'm thinking that BBT's list would be a good start. So we have:

1) Does it function with Whip feats, such as Whip Mastery, or Weapon Focus(Whip)?

2) Can you deal nonlethal, without penalty?

3) Does it threaten?

4) Does it provoke when used?

5) Is it finessable?

6) Can it be enchanted, as a whip?

I'll add a couple more:

7) Does it have reach? How much? Does it threaten within all of it's reach?

8) What special materials can it be made out of?

9) Which feats that apply to Whips can apply to Scorpion Whips? (Whip Mastery line of feats, Weapon Focus, etc.)

I think most of these could be answered if we simply asked:
Could you give a description of everything that a Scorpion Whip can do without referencing the Whip.

...then, tell us what it can also do if you have the Whip Proficiency without referencing the Whip.

Do we need anything else?


Has there already been a thread on this?

Basically, what I am looking for is a guide for improving your skill checks with items. Perhaps something that lists items that give bonuses by skill and by bonus type for stacking purposes. Then sorted by cost. And then perhaps some situational items that do not directly improve the skill but add other uses to it (like the gloves that let you disarm at a distance, cant remember their name). I also would have to note items that help all skills like the Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone and the Luckstone and Luckstone.

I don't want to reinvent the wheel but if nothing has been done for this yet I very well may sit down and do it myself. I have a character that I'm working on that is a skill monkey and I want to improve my skill modifiers and am looking into the order I want to purchase gear in to improve my skills.


To add on to what Magda is saying: If you can't use it in two hands then it doesn't work with BotAK which specifically says it has to be two hands. It also specifically says that Flagbearer works with it. So... you do the math. ;)


I'm flagging that post for making a threat to topple these boards! Thats where I like to talk about all my Pathfinder stuffs!

TheBobJones: Arcanist seems like the class for you as you can take both Bloodline Development and some good parts of Wizard Schools. Basically lets you do the same things without dipping.


As previously mentioned, among many other reasons. Drag and Reposition.


You have come to a message board filled with geeks. This is probably the most likely place you could go to find people to point out grammar errors. Especially if they are funny.

My advice: develop a thicker skin and a sense of humor. I thought it was a rather funny mistake. *shrug*

On topic: Arcanists (and perhaps anarchists) can use wizard schools.


/facepalm

The Trip quality is not functionally useless. I gave specifics on it and even provided a link. At this point your argument is tantamount to shaking your head fiercely while saying, "Nuh uh!"

Luckily, I do not need to convince you of anything. The rules are on my side as I plainly laid out. If there is misinformation being given I will point to the rules and what they say. If you feel you would like to argue, argue with the rules, not me.


Bran Towerfall: I'm not sure if you are referring to a Whip or a polearm (or other weapon). If you trip someone with a weapon that does not have the Trip weapon quality you can not drop your weapon to avoid being knocked prone. Weapon cord or not.


But Improved Unarmed Strike and TWF can.


Actually care less about HOW it works so long as there is clarification. I just want to know how to build my characters. And I would really prefer a cut and dried answer before having to deal with "table variation" at PFS tables.

You know, I think what would work best is if we just asked for this:
Could you give a description of everything that a Scorpion Whip can do without referencing the Whip.

...then, tell us what it can also do if you have the Whip Proficiency without referencing the Whip.


Barbarian doesn't really fit the build very well though.

Seriously. Just go Monk and use Improved Unarmed Strike and TWF. It completely works.


Insain Dragoon wrote:
Yes whip has a few other little boons, but being a "trip weapon" doesn't mean much since any weapon can be used to trip.

Wrong again. It means that you can drop your weapon instead of being knocked prone if you fail by 10 or more on your CMB check. You can also use a trip weapon to do drag and reposition combat maneuvers.


And I never said that you made mention of using Lunge to increase reach during your opponents turn.

What you said:

Quote:
Those feats be expensive and you can get the same deal out of lunge for one feat and -2 AC.

That is not true. With a Whip you threaten ALL squares within the 10'. With a polearm you do not. And you can attack in any of those squares all the time. If you get the Whip Mastery Feats you threaten in those squares as well. If you get Lunge with a Whip you can attack at further away than you can with a polearm. Furthermore, increasing your reach with other things (like Enlarge, Long Arm, Combat Patrol, Aberant Bloodline, Pliant Gloves, etc.) all increase your attack and threaten zone even greater with a Whip than with a polearm.

There are other benefits of using a Whip that not all polearms have.

Spoiler:
A Whip is a Trip weapon
A Whip can deal non-lethal damage without taking a -4 which is great for things like Enforcer
You can use it to grab stuff
You can use a Whip as a Grappling Hook
You can use it in a Grapple
You can use it one handed or two handed
If you use it with one hand in a grapple you take no penalty
You can use it to Tie Up an opponent
You can Tie Up an opponent without having them Pinned at a -5 penalty

I didn't get tripped up (pun, right?) at all. I think you may have.


Insain Dragoon: You are wrong. Lunge only increases reach during YOUR turn, not your opponent's turn.


NoooOOo!!1!one!

Don't let the thread die. 12 FAQ votes aren't nearly enough to get Dev attention.
...and I'd rather not start a new thread.


Insain Dragoon wrote:
Those feats be expensive and you can get the same deal out of lunge for one feat and -2 AC.

Not true. Lunge only increases reach during YOUR turn, not your opponent's turn.

Even if it were true, you could still get Lunge on top of using a Whip and increase your reach further.


It works with Monk's Improved Unarmed Strike though, and with Two Weapon Fighting.


I know that the message was supposed to mean something but from all of the "redacted" I do not understand any of it.


Combat Patrol + Reach Weapon + anything that increases reach + Combat Reflexes + a bunch of Trip feats.

Stand Still and the Step Up line of feats wouldn't hurt either.


What I'm considering right now for a build I have in mind is depending on how Whip/Scorpion Whip works whether it is better to go Human for the extra feat up front or Half-Elf and take Ancestral Arms to start with proficiency in both Whip and Scorpion Whip and also gain access to the Half-Elf Favored Class bonus to get an 1/6th of an Extra Arcana.

...and if doing that whether it would be better to go with a Kensai Whip Magus or a Spelldancer Whip Magus. Currently I'm very torn. The rest of my build looks much like yours, TheOddGoblin. I wanted to do the Shadowdancer thing too with the Dimensional feats... but actually I think they are not needed upon closer examination.


First of all I strongly recommend starting all games with giving a perquisite during character creation of alignment expectations and a purpose that binds the characters together. Something like, "As part of your character background (that is, of course, required to play in my game) you need to include that you are somehow positively associated with this NPC. This NPC is in some way a mentor, leader or someone your character looks up to. You also have to include that your character is bound to work with other associates of this NPC (the rest of the party) despite any personal aspirations they might have this must be paramount to your character's existence. And it must be paramount to your character's existence in my game for if this one rule is not followed then you will not play in my game."

Then of course disagreements will happen. When they do if they are unresolvable then let them fight it out. Whatever happens you are down one disruptive character. If it is a player problem you can follow suit by being down one disruptive player as well. If they retort then you can always point back to the rule noted in my first paragraph.

I do this for every game I run. So far I haven't had a problem with inter-party conflicts since. My players all know that when the game becomes un-enjoyable for me that the game stops. That hurts everyone. I have few rules (well, several minor house rules) but the ones I have I have for a reason. That reason is typically the enjoyment of all at the table. That includes me.


Duiker wrote:
This messageboard really needs a keyboard shortcut for just posting "talk to each other like mature adults".

Well that might be the "right" way but you have to ask yourself... is it the FUNNEST way?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I say steel cage-match of death. It is the only permanent solution that is also entertaining.


Meh, I'm fine with using this thread. Lets just all flag the initial post. Flagging my post I don't think will do much. We can start a FAQ campaign. Mention it to all your friends! ;)

We want action and we want it now!
Hm.. I'm bad at thinking of things to put on picket signs. Now... pitchforks and torches. I'm good at that. heh heh >:D


Hamatulatsu isn't PFS legal? Oh hell, your right. Weapon Versatility it is!

edit: Hrm... I don't own either book. I'll have to add that to my purchase list.


Hamatulatsu + Swashbuckler's Finesse works well. Agile works with everything then.


TheOddGoblin wrote:

1: Weapon Finesse (Human), Weapon Focus (Kensai), Whip Mastery

3: Slashing Grace (Whip), Flamboyant Arcana
5: Dodge, Combat Reflexes (Kensai)
6: Arcane Deed: Precise Strike
7: Mobility

That can't be right. You do not meet the requirements for Whip Mastery at level one. It gives me an idea of your feats though. Thanx.

Anexor: IMO just get Glammered on your weapon. You can make it look like whatever you want. Just use a whip and sometimes it can look like a sword. In fact, maybe talk to your GM about allowing it to not provoke if you have it look like a sword and swing it at an adjacent enemy.


dragonhunterq: There are 3 printings of the Scorpion Whip. (AA first printing, UE, and AA second printing) Which stat line do you think it should use as they are all different? As an example: not all of them are light weapons so are you sure about the weapon finesse ruling?

There have been multiple Dev rulings on it which do not completely agree. Which Dev ruling should we go with?

Did you read my post? Did you see the questions that BBT posted? If you doubt that there is any confusion on this matter I suggest re-reading my post and actually following the links and reading the questions people have asked. I seriously do not know how someone could come to the conclusion that the Scorpion Whip is a cut and dried issue. I don't even know anyone, other than you, who has said that they think they completely understand it. No one does. I don't think there is even a Dev who does, honestly.

Like I said before, I am upset about the issue but not at anyone in particular. I'm mostly just upset that YEARS have went by without this being addressed anywhere officially. No FAQ or Errata. Even after several threads with several FAQ requests, some of which being listed with "answered in FAQ" when it hasn't been.


Lets do it.
...but should we start a new thread?


Since Whip and Scorpion Whip were brought up multiple times in this thread I felt it applicable to post here that I resurrected the latest thread on that topic that I could find.


Oterisk, I haven't seen you around in a long time. If I have just missed your posts then ignore this. Otherwise, welcome back!

I remember you posting a build similar to that way back in one of my very first posts on these boards years ago. It looks like you have developed it pretty far.

Questions: If you are getting Dim Door as a 3rd level spell you qualify for Dimensional Agility by 7th and Dimensional Assault at the same level. You can have Dimensional Dervish at 9th level. Is there some reason to have Combat Expertise where it is?

Also, once you hit either 7th or 9th level would you recommend using the retraining rules from Complete Campaign?


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Ok, I just wasted two f%$^ing hours of my life trying to figure out what the hell a Scorpion Whip does. What have I accomplished in that time? Well, obviously I have become fairly annoyed but other than that, not much.

I don't honestly get upset about rulings on things ever. I can't even explain why this has me so annoyed. I think it is mostly because there is just no explanation on it.

This was the latest thread I could find on the topic so rather than starting a new one (which I may still do) I figured I would post here first as this has already been marked as a FAQ candidate multiple times.

Lets review.

This thread is a stinking pile of trash that got me started on my trek for an answer. No offense to the OP or anyone who posted in it. My animosity comes from lack of answers and increase in confusion, not towards any individuals. Nonetheless it does contain some links to developer's posts on the topic.

...including this one. We have blackbloodtroll to thank for getting those answers from JJ. Unfortunately he gave 6 answers to 7 questions and didn't number them so it is anyone's best guess as to which answers belong to which questions. So, no offense to JJ, I'm sure it was an honest mistake but due to this problem his post is a complete waste. :(

There is this additional resources section which refers to Pathfinder Society play and what is legal. Let me shorten it up for you, it says this:

Quote:

Ultimate Equipment...

The scorpion whip found in this book is no longer legal. Please refer to the Adventurer’s Armory for the legal version.

It makes no other mention of the scorpion whip anywhere else in that document.

There is also this thread. Let me shorten that up for you. From JJ we get the following:

JJ wrote:
Yup; if you're proficient with a whip, you can use a scorpion whip. Doesn't mean you can use a scorpion whip to do all the things a whip can do, though... just what a scorpion whip can do.

There is also this.

Here is what SKR said:
SRK wrote:
A scorpion whip uses the same rules as the whip in the PFRPG Core Rulebook, except (1) it deals lethal damage, even to creatures with armor bonuses, and (2) the stats in the table.

The problem here is that was printed back in 2010 before the 2nd printing of Adventurer's Armory or before Ultimate Equipment.

So where does that leave us? NOWHERE! Arg, it is so frustrating. Honestly, it gets us right back to the same questions that BBT posted to JJ. It is amazing that there have been this many FAQ requests, threads have even been marked as "answered in the FAQ" but they weren't, and we are no closer to an answer on this than when it was first printed. I just want to know what it does.

Seriously, it is ruining character concepts for me right now before I even build them. If I knew which way it worked then I could build around it. It doesn't matter to me which way it works, I just don't want to make a build and then have to change it mid-stream, get hammered by a nerf stick and told I do not get a free rebuild in PFS or something. I am hesitant to even post build concepts to have them attacked by other posters saying, "You can't do that with a Whip/Scorpion Whip." or, "Those feats don't work like that for that weapon." or any number of other things. I wouldn't blame them for posting but because there is absolutely no clarity on this weapon I would feel better avoiding it altogether until a ruling is made.

I seriously do not mean this to come off as a rant. I am upset but at no one in particular. Mostly, I am upset that so much time has passed and the subject has only become MORE complex, not less.


Yes. They can't say "Iroran" on pfsrd due to copyright issues. They use general names for things like that.


TheOddGoblin: Your build sounds interesting to me. Could you post it?


Kyrrion: Sure, it can work. But have you checked the maker's mark on all of your magical gear? What brand do you wear?


So if this is no magic to help the martial character what about magic items? I mean... you know who made those things, right?


Buri: My group plays by the playtest rules as it is just too silly to imagine that the classes stack in some respects but not others. But hey, if the SLA ruling is any gauge then maybe Paizo will make a reversal on this as well. ;)


Cory Stafford 29 wrote:
Yeah. I skipped a lot. That bites. Glad I didn't go mt for one of my pfs tieflings.

Guessing you haven't been reading the thread in its entirety. PFS characters who already have at least one level in a PrC based on the previous ruling get grandfathered in. So if anything you would be upset you didn't get a character in under the wire on that one.


My biggest beef is that they didn't leave in the whole "you can't use the base classes if you use a hybrid class" thing.


Xethik: Not everyone has Eschew Materials.


You do need ink. It is the material component.

I think Ipslore got it. You could potentially double your writing speed.

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