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Vedavrex Misraria

Lune's page

Pathfinder Society Member. 1,212 posts. No reviews. No lists. 1 wishlist. 2 Pathfinder Society characters.


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Oh, my thread is old. I doubt it will be updated. Still some good advice and inspiration in there though.

Hm. Looking back over it I think my best suggestion is to go with Half-Elf and take the Elf Favored Class Bonus. This allows you to get the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat for free at first level and the extra 1/6 aracana per level. Of course this was all assuming going Hexcrafter rather than Kensai (Hexcrafter is better for debuff stacking). If you go Kensai then it is moot as you get the Exotic Weapon Proficiency for free from Kensai.

I had a very similar idea. Check here for some possible inspirations. I'll keep an eye on this thread for some inspirations of my own. :)

IMO you should not adjust encounters to fit a party. I have this opinion both from a DM and player experience.

As a DM I believe that it is the player's responsibility to creatively find a way to thrive as a party. From a player's experience I would actually be offended if I found that my DM was catering encounters to make it easier for myself or my party. It would make me think that the DM thinks that either my character or my party is inadequate. If I found this to be the case then I would seek to find ways to fill the gap either with my character or via suggestions to the other players as to how to fill those gaps.

And I think that is what needs to happen here. Others have filled in the reason why. It wouldn't be so bad if the Summoner wasn't purposefully removing himself and his Eidolon from melee combat as a potential target. That is just going to serve to make things more difficult as it is going to leave the rest of the party to be taking just as many hits among fewer targets.

If the Witch focuses on battlefield control and the cleric is a passable tank then this might help. Having the Cleric focus a bit on summoning might help to give more targets as well. If all else fails there are always hirelings and pets.

1 person marked this as a favorite.

On the topic of PCs knowing about the existence of all the magic items present in the Pathfinder books...

I'm with wraithstrike on this one. Why would they not? We do. As players most of us know the properties of most of the magic items. I don't think I am nearly as intelligent as many of the characters with ranks in knowledge: arcana or spellcraft are. Or at least not as skilled in those fields. But how is it that I could know more than they do on those particular topics?

Does anyone honestly think that it is beyond a PC's ability to read a 300 page book and commit it to memory? Or at least the section about magic items?

The way I prefer to handle it in game is with knowledge checks for some things that might not be so common of knowledge but for many magic items it is assumed they know.

As for the topic at hand I think that the RAW method is a quick and easy way of going about a moderate approach to availability. As for the roleplaying aspect of this, well... I think that depends on where the PCs are at that they are shopping for said items. It so greatly depends on this that I can't think of any general advice to give.

JoCa: No problem on the thread necro. I actually appreciate the subject getting more attention.

I agree with your evaluation of it's uses, just that there aren't a lot of good extracts on the Alchemist list to use for it. You are right though and perhaps some spell research is called for here. The Poison spell seems like a good choice. Perhaps Contagion?

We have a Witch in my party with the Brew Potion feat so that might help. I'd rather be more self sufficient though but perhaps even having her teach my character some spells would help with spell research. *shrug*

It might help if I post the build for the character. Here it is.

The whole thread is not moot. There are other things you can use touch injection for. You just didn't bold them in the description you linked. I assure you, they are there.

♣♠Magic♦♥ wrote:
Also, and I'm being as polite as I can here: you might get more answers if you were being a little less acidic with the responses to posts you don't like. You may not be trying to or realize that you are, but you're coming off as being kind of rude.

My responses were meant to be taken exactly as I wrote them. They were not rude responses. It is possible that someone took them that way but whether they did or not that has nothing to do with my intent.

I am frustrated and annoyed however when I specifically say "Lets go with the assumption that the GM in question would disallow any personal range spells like Skinsend. I would assume any sane GM would not allow that but more importantly mine does not." ...and then the next posts contain 3 posts on that exact kind of spell. Then I point that out again and to please not suggest that same thing. What happens? BAM. Same suggestion again. At that point I move off from my kid mittens and call the person out for suggesting that very thing again.

Yeah, I don't think the problem is there me being rude. I asked nicely. Twice. You suggest the same thing again expect to be called out for reading retention fail. That is the last I'll say on that. You got a problem with something I say then bring it up with me privately and leave it out of this thread. It is no longer a constructive course of conversation (and never really was).

The rest of your suggestions were somewhat helpful. Thank you for remaining constructive.

Tomos: I do not care if you think it should be ruled one way and not another. I disagree. You will not change my mind on this, I'm sure I will not change yours. Moreover, you could not possibly change my DM's mind as he isn't even here for you to convince. I will ask you once again to please move off the topic of Skinsend and Polypurpose Panacea. Your suggestions on that topic are not helpful.

Tomos wrote:
I think a size large enemy with a greataxe would be more than inconvenienced by dropping to size medium. Guess that's just my opinion though.

Really? Why? His Greataxe moves to size small as well. He can still use it. In fact, you just gave him a +2 Dex, +2 AC (including the Dex), +1 Ref save, and +1 to hit. All for taking a -2 to Str? That could easily be considered a buff.

I think our theories on what is considered "very useful" vary pretty widely.

LessPopMoreFizz wrote:
I said it was the point of Infusion. Not Touch Injection. Touch Injection is just an alternate delivery method for liquids. Some liquids can be infusions.

Ah, yes. I guess I misread that. My mistake. It probably comes from all the people wanting to argue with my DM's ruling in this thread (not helpful!). You are correct. However, I will not be getting Infusion. I am the party's tank so I will need to be focusing my feats and discoveries on that. So, unfortunately in my circumstance it is moot.

Rushley son of Halum: I actually am a Chirurgeon and while Breath of Life is awesome and awesomely useful for this I will not be getting it as I will never get to 10th level Chirurgeon. I will be going into Master Chymist. Also... he is a half-orc, but no great sword. He does have a merciful greataxe but rarely uses it. Instead he typically fights with natural attacks that he has permanent +3 greater magic fang on.

... on a weapon? I do not understand how that is a weapon enhancement.

Wait... what? This is a weapon enhancement that helps someone you heal?

LessPopMoreFizz: I respectfully disagree. I think that the whole point of it is to allow spells that target "creature touched", not personal range no save spells that are meant only for voluntary use by one's self. In fact, I am willing to bet that if you ran this by a developer or JJ that they would back me up on it. Furthermore, I can't think of any situation of where a sane GM would allow this to happen more than once.

But this is irrelevant. Because my GM doesn't allow it. Period. Move on from Skinsend and Polypurpose Panacea, please.

I still feel that I am missing some good stuff here. Surely someone has used Touch Injection (or as LessPopMoreFizz pointed out, Poisoner's Glove or a Medlance) before.

Can't look at the enhancement right now to see what it does but does it work with Channel Smite?

I think that all the posts that start with this assumption need to add a disclaimer. Something like, "Assuming, for the moment, that these things statck..." Just so the threads don't get derailed into further debates on it. Maybe add to the disclaimer the link that Under a Bleeding Sun posted stating, "If you would like to discuss whether or not this works or not please follow this link and click FAQ."

Personally per RAW I am for it working. From a balance perspective though... I dunno, it is pretty strong. I can't think that something so obvious was an oversight though, so perhaps it is intended. I dunno, I'm on the fence.

I had thought that ruling was to allow you access to classes that just needed casting. But DD's prereqs are a bit more steep. I do not believe it works.

Well, it is true that it can help with allies. It wouldn't really necessarily ruin your action economy though as the spell can be cast into it in advance of an encounter. I guess I was just looking for a way to make it apply to combat.


Tomos: Read the first line of my first post. Then read my last post. Stop suggesting Skinsend.

Blindness isn't on the Alchemist list. And I challenge you to find the offensive spells on the Alchemist list (as I requested in the original post). Am I blind? Because I'm not seeing them. That is kinda what this whole post is about. I'll even make it easier on you. Here is a list.

You can't make a potion of Fireball because the rules state:

The Rules wrote:
It can duplicate the effect of a spell of up to 3rd level that has a casting time of less than 1 minute and targets one or more creatures or objects.

The only thing even remotely useful you have offered is Reduce Person which I find a hard time classifying as "offensive" though "inconvenienced" might be a better description. Even that is iffy.

To everyone who suggested the exact same thing repeatedly: Yes. I do mean outside of Panacea.

Please reread my original post where I said:

Me. Just earlier on the very first line of my post. wrote:
Lets go with the assumption that the GM in question would disallow any personal range spells like Skinsend. I would assume any sane GM would not allow that but more importantly mine does not.

Joe: Thank you for that useful suggestion. I was looking at the other drugs too. I was thinking of some way to combine it with Imbue With Addiction.

Lets go with the assumption that the GM in question would disallow any personal range spells like Skinsend. I would assume any sane GM would not allow that but more importantly mine does not.

Also, I would prefer spells or alchemical items that the Alchemist would have access to himself rather than from an outside source. However, if it is just too good to pass up, please enlighten me.

I'm not seeing a lot, to be honest. Poisons are fairly hard to come by from my experience and ridiculously hard to manufacture if you use the rules for crafting mundane items. The Alchemist extract list doesn't really lend itself too well to offensive spells that you could put in them.

For the record I am thinking of using these for a Hyde type Alchemist that I am playing currently. I was thinking of combining them with Deliquescent Gloves, Greater Magic Fanged natural attacks (I know there is nothing official but my GM allows the delivery via natural and unarmed attacks), Touch Injection, and a Spell Storing Amulet of Mighty Fists. Maybe some other things if I can think of them. I actually really wanted to think of a way to mix up some concoction in one of the gloves using an Admixture Vial and something in the other glove using a Hybridization Funnel. Maybe even using Drugs (GM ok'ed this as well).

Perhaps it is a distinct lack of creativity but I am coming up a bit short of things that would be good to combine here. I need some inspiration.

I am assuming you are using the Crossblooded Rager archetype? I know that this is more of a thought experiment but I would like to point out that Ragechemist is never a good choice. This is particularly true when mixing with the Crossblooded Rager. This character would at best be a liability to any party he would be in, at worst be the source of a TPK.

I also question why to go with a Bloodrager anyway as the Bloodrage ability doesn't stack with the bloodline granted morale bonus. It just kinda seems a waste unless I'm missing something?

I would suggest taking a look over this thread to see if you get any inspiration.

I might also suggest reflavoring the Clustered Shots feat as the mechanics of it support it actually coming from one shot even though it uses multiple attacks to accomplish.

I favor Dragonchess Player's build so far. It makes for the most versatile character with the focus you want. It would add a lot to a party at all levels. I would add the Vital Strike line of feats to that build.

Just seems like he is going for a "one big hit" build. Channel Smite fits with that well with a character who has Channel. So does Extra Channel, for that matter.

How about adding Channel Smite?

Alright, well that IS the way it reads. I'm not certain it is within the spirit of the feat, though. I guess that is subject to opinion unless officially clarified. I wonder how many people house rule this. I will definitely be bringing it up to my DM just so we are on the same page regardless of what ruling he makes.

So let me make sure I understand how the rest of this would work:
If you take non-lethal damage while you have temporary hit points these are actually tracked serpately even from your normal hit points. Thus if the character has 100 hp and 10 temporary hit points and takes 10 points of lethal damage while he has Ablative Barrier up; 5 points of the damage would be converted to non-lethal damage (keep a seperate running total), and 5 points would be taken off of his temporary hit points.

If the next round the same character took 15 points of lethal damage, 5 points would get taken off his temporary hit points which would completely deplete his temporary hit points. 5 points would taken off his normal hit point total and 5 points would be converted to non-lethal damage due to Ablative Barrier (which is being recorded sepeartely). This would have effectively healed him for 10 points of damage that turn (5 lethal, 5 non-lethal).

Then if this character activated his Spontaneous Healing/Healing Touch discovery he would heal 5 points of lethal damage which would bring him back up to full hit points. He would also heal an equal amount of non-lethal damage which is being tracked seperately. He would then have 5 points of non-lethal damage remaining.

Is that all correct?

I also wonder what happens if the character has taken 101 points of non-lethal damage and then is granted temporary hit points. Would this make him become conscious? this also a good time to mention that the same character has a level of Barbarian and can gain a buffer of Rage hit points as well? It gets complicated here, you see.

I am familiar with everything here. I am looking for other people's opinions as there are some clarity issues within the rules. This, actually has been an issue since 3.x as Die Hard and non-lethal damage rules haven't really changed since then. If you do not believe me then I welcome you to do a google search for "D&D Die Hard non-lethal" and take a look at some of the forum posts. Since Pathfinder didn't really clarify those rules at all we are left with the same issue.

So, let me get your opinion straight. I'm not saying it is wrong, I just want to make sure I understand your outlook.
You believe that the general rules for non-lethal damage overule the specific rules of Die Hard. In other words, you believe that:
1. Assuming the character with Die Hard has 100 HP and an 18 Con and takes 101 points of damage that they would be Staggered but could keep fighting until at 118 damage (or -18) and would fall dead.

2. Assuming the character with Die Hard has 100 HP and an 18 Con and takes 101 points of non-lethal damage that because this was non-lethal the Die Hard feat would not kick in and they would fall unconscious rather than being staggered? Is this opinion just because Die Hard doesn't specifically mention non-lethal damage as the reason your HP total is below 0?

I am in agreeance with everything you stated except about Die Hard.

Say I have 80hp and have taken 90hp worth of non-lethal damage. Would I still be conscious? Or because it is non-lethal damage would I be unconscious?

What if I have taken 101hp worth of damage and I have a 20 Con? Then I would be more than 20 points below my maximum. Would Die Hard stop functioning at that point and I actually go unconscious? (Since the character has Lingering Spirit this cap would actually be at 130hp in this example)

What if in both of the above examples he also has 1 point of lethal damage?

How do you believe these things interact?

I have an Alchemist that I am playing in a game who will soon be using these in combination. If I cast False Life and Ablative Barrier and then take damage how is that recorded? How will this heal when using Fast Healing via Spontaneous Healing/Healing Touch Discoveries?

...and to further complicate issues: the character also has the Die Hard feat and Lingering Spirit Discovery. So he can go to negative hit points and keep fighting. But... how does this interact with the non-lethal damage caused by Ablative Barrier?

This is one reason I was sad that they removed ECL from Pathfinder. My suggestion would be to look back at the old ECL rules and those from Savage Species. They give a solid outline of how to judge the power levels of something with racial hit dice opposed to that of a party with class levels. They can still be implemented in Pathfinder and I have done it to large extent. Doing a Savage Progression like suggested in Savage Species does seem to be the way to go.

Make sure you know how you are going to rule on both the RP side (seems like you have a solid handle on that) and the rules side of things. It is important to decide how you are going to handle item slots, manufactured armor, feats and skills to prohibit and other things like this before the campaign starts. Just because he is awakened doesn't mean that he would have proper training to take the types of feats he would need. For instance it would likely be fairly difficult to teach a tiger how to use Improved Unarmed Strike. It would just be against their nature. You need to know how you will rule on these sorts of things and be sure you convey them to the player before hand so he can make a sound judgement on if he still wishes to do it with your rulings.

Might I second the suggestion of at least 3 levels in Zen Archer and the rest wherever you'd like (even Ranger)?

Zen Archer gets you Wis to hit and with a Guided weapon (RAW allows it to be applied to ranged weapons, check with DM first) you can get Wis to damage as well. This would allow you to forgoe strength for ranged attacks. If you wanted to use Dex as well that could still be a good choice to up your AC further and your saves. Another advantage of this build is the high unarmored AC.

Your melee damage would still suffer until you get an Agile or Guided melee weapon. Piranha Strike would still be a great feat choice.

You also wouldn't need to get natural attacks as you get Improved Unarmed Strike for free. You lose out on flurry of blows in melee but if you are only looking for single melee attacks and always threatening for AoOs then this is the way to go. Or, you know... just use your bow unless it is an AoO.

Plus, if you do go with Ranger your high Wis wont go to waste on spellcasting.

Piranha Strike. Oh. And Dragon Style feats.

I feel like using a race with racial HD would put me even further behind the curve. Good catch though.

If your GM is open minded then I suggest looking at the 3.5 Prestige Class the Arcane Heirophant. They get the ability to combine their Familiar and their Animal Companion into a Familiar Companion that advances on both lists just as you wanted. It, of course, has spell casting requirements though.

That too. It seems like more than just oversight that the Hexcrafter was left without a way to use a Hex with Spell Combat too though. Heck, even making it an arcana would be fine.

I dunno... "sleep effects they cast". Might be some wiggle room there. No official ruling on it that I know of.

I'd like to say right now before the thread gets going. Gees, Grimmzorch. Thanx for opening up this can of worms! I predict a heated debate coming.

I have been thinking about this very subject for the Hexcrafter guy that I have been working on. It kinda sucks for action economy. It seems like they would have made a specific exception for Hexcrafters. They sorta did with Accursed Strike but that doesn't help with Hexes.

With my characters build already being extremely feat tight I can't justify spending another feat on IUS and Hex Strike.

And I did. Twice. And if the OP posts again and tells us what he is looking for then I will continue to be as useful as possible.

Am I off the hook now, boss?

Ah, didn't know that Vivisectionist wasn't PFS legal.

Alexandros Satorum: I respectfully disagree. Often times people come to these boards and say "I want to do X, Y and Z. How can B class accomplish this best." The answer is often that they can not accomplish X, Y and Z best but another class can. Often the OP walks way appreciative of another viewpoint they haven't considered because they weren't aware of how something worked.

And anyway, I didn't do that aside from the Vivisectionist suggestion that isn't PFS legal anyway. If you do not like Deadmanwalking's, or BBT's suggestions (Slayer/Barbarian or Wild Stalker/Trapper Ranger respectively) then please direct your complaints to them. They are the ones who made suggestions of other classes. Not me.

Ciaran: You are not the forum police. I can suggest what I like. I am being constructive. You are not. Drop it.

sentaiexpress: Personally, I like the builds that have less rogue and more martial. If you have to take rogue levels I would suggest taking 1, 2 or 3 levels. Those are the best cutoff points IMO.

If you go with Deadmanwalking's suggestion I would take Piranha Strike and Weapon Finesse. Also, Vivisectionist Alchemist would stack really well with that too and it keeps the rogue feel. Even just a couple of levels is great.

I suspect it is for some overly nostalgic association with "sneak attack" being how you "stab someone on the back". BBT is correct though. It is difficult and often not worth it to make reliable sneak attacks. Even then it is situational damage as opposed to static damage that will hurt anything.

EvilPaladin's advice isn't bad if you absolutely gotta have rogue. His build at least doesn't rely fully on situational damage, it has both. I would, however, consider what it is you actually want out of rogue.

Most things rogue better than rogue. Its a sorry situation, but it is true.


Me...earlier wrote:
This is mostly just theory crafting for some possible future game that I'll likely never get to play in. I know that isn't a big motivator but you know me... I love making character concepts. So... I guess I can't answer the question of what is available but I would say probably the more widely available things the better.

Thats 3 traits unless i go half orc. Then i miss out on wayang spellhunter. Guess i could take extra traits.

I was also going to use a spiked gauntlet until he gets improved whip mastery.

Also to do lethal with a scorpion whip takes a seperate ewp feat or else i would be taking a -4 to attack.

Scorpion whip doesnt do nonlethal for enforcer though.

Hm... Sylph. That is an interesting option. Not sure how I would picture a Sylph Warlock.

BBT: Caravan Drover. Hm. I'll have to take a look at that. This is mostly just theory crafting for some possible future game that I'll likely never get to play in. I know that isn't a big motivator but you know me... I love making character concepts. So... I guess I can't answer the question of what is available but I would say probably the more widely available things the better.

revaar: Awesome catch!

Oh, and I thought of going Elf for the extra arcana favored class option but losing out on EWP at first level isn't really doable even though it would net me the equivalent of 2 bonus feats/arcanas/hexes. The stat bonuses would be good, though.

So you can't do both Kensai and Hexcrafter as they both replace Spell Recall. That puts a bit of a kink in my build. However, this is what I have so far:

Replacing Adaptability to get Ancestral Arms for EWP: Whip
Replacing low-light vision with Drow-Blooded for Dark Vision (this is good as I will be using stealth)

1st - Magus 1: Arcane Pool, Cantrips, Spell Combat, Weapon Finesse (1st), EWP Whip (Half-Elf)
2nd - Fighter 1: Weapon Focus (bonus)
3rd - Magus 2: Spellstrike, Whip Mastery (3rd)
4th - Magus 3: Arcane Accuracy
5th - Magus 4: Evil Eye (bonus), Rime Spell (5th)
6th - Fighter 2: Combat Expertise (bonus), Enforcer (bonus)
7th - Fighter 3: Maneuver Mastery, Improved Whip Mastery (7th)
8th - Fighter 4: Improved Trip (bonus)
9th - Magus 5: Dazzling Display (9th), Shatter Defenses (bonus)
10th - Magus 6: Misfortune
11th - Magus 7: Knowledge Pool, Medium Armor, Extra Arcana: Accursed Strike (11th)
12th - Magus 8: Improved Spell Combat
13th - Magus 9: Fury's Fall (13th)
14th - Magus 10: Fighter Training
15th - Magus 11: Combat Reflexes (15th), Cackle (bonus)
16th - Magus 12: Agony,
17th - Magus 13: Heavy Armor, Greater Trip (17th)
18th - Magus 14: Greater Spell Combat
19th - Magus 15: Disruptive (arcana), Quicken SLA (19th)
20th - Magus 16: Counterstrike

That gets everything I wanted except the Rogue (Thug) stuff. I think it makes up for it in spells and Hexes though. Everything is fairly delayed from where I want it to be, though. Waiting until 9th to setup the Shatter Defenses/Enforcer abuse is kinda sucky. I kinda need the whip feats where they are at though to decrease the suckyness of using a whip for a weapon and actually making it viable. I guess I could switch around Shatter Defenses and Improved Trip.

I would love to do Rime Spell at first level but there is honestly no room without delaying Weapon Finesse and that just seems bad with a low Str high Dex build. Likewise I will have to get Whip Mastery as early as possible so I can actually damage anything. Cant get that til I get Weapon Focus so I have to wait til 3rd.

Also I have never played a Magus. Not sure all of what kinda tricky stuff I can do with the spells yet. I haven't looked into it much.

I dunno. I feel like it could use some improvement. What do you think?

/facepalm Oh yeah. Forgot I got it free with Kensai.

Actually, I rather liked the idea of keeping spare whips around to use just for Greater Whip Mastery. Grappled is a debuff. :)

Ok, just found the Whip Mastery line of feats. How did I miss these before? Oh yeah... its cause they do not appear on this list. God, all of these seem good for this build. If I go this route I could use a Whip rather than a Scorpion Whip and still be effective. It would also free up a trait from Blade of Mercy.

...its just more feats though. UGH!

I'm kinda just mulling over an idea here. I'm thinking of a warlock type character (Hexcrafter Magus) that uses a Whip and Spiked Gauntlet in one hand (for threat area so he threatens adjacent at least) and casts with the other. I'm going for a melee striker/debuffer here.

For race it would probably be Half-Elf for the free Exotic Weapon Proficiency and other elfy goodness. Maybe even going with Drow Blooded and Drow Magic for Stealthy stuffs.

I was actually also considering combining it with Kensai and pumping Int and Dex and forgoing Strength completely. This would work especially well if I get Combat Reflexes ... the only problem is the Whip doesn't threaten.

Actually, the Whip as a whole is a problem. I wanted to combine it with Enforcer to give the Shaken Condition. The problem is that with things with armor I will have trouble even damaging them. So... that is pretty terrible. Maybe if I take the Blade of Mercy trait? Then I could use the Scorpion Whip, right? Its slashing. Still doesn't solve the issue with not being able to threaten with a Whip.

I honestly considered a Small sized Flying Blade... but that is just silly and I don't want to eat the potential -4 to hit (goes to +0 on AoOs though!).

I was also going to go with the Rime Spell + Wayang Spellhunter + Frostbite + Enforcer to give them Entangled, Fatigued and Shaken. Possibly even doing this from first level depending on what I select for a first level feat.

As for the rest of the melee side I was also going to go with some tripping feats later on. Obviously I would need Weapon Finesse if I'm going to forgo Strength. I would also need Combat Expertise to even go into any of the Trip feats. So then there is Improved Trip, Fury's Fall, Greater Trip, maybe even Fury's Snare. There was also the afore mentioned Combat Reflexes. Since I was going for the Striker/Debuffer thing I would also really love to fit in Shatter Defenses which requires Weapon Focus and Dazzling Display. That also will make Deadly Stroke look pretty tasty later on too.

So... how the hell am I going to get all those feats? Welp... if I go with Kensai/Hexcrafter the Kensai side would give me Weapon Focus. There is honestly no way that I am going to put a dent in those feats without some Fighter levels. Lore Warden seems in theme both mechanically and fluffy. For 2 levels I would get 3 feats. The lack of Armor Proficiencies wouldn't hurt with being a Kensai and all. 3 levels would get me a +2 on all CMB and CMD. Hell, if I'm going for 3 I might as well stick around for 4 to get another bonus feat. 4 feats in 4 levels and a +2 to CMB and CMD doesn't seem too shabby.

I realize it slows down spell progression but Magus isn't really a full caster anyway. I also realize that I would be giving up some effectiveness to fit theme, but I'm ok with that so long as it doesn't completely gimp the character.

Now for the caster side of things...

First of all I would love to fit in a Familiar but only if I could get Improved Familiar (Faerie Dragon so good!!) and with everything else going on with the build I just don't think it is in the cards. I just don't think I have enough room to fit it in. So, I'm just going to skip that for now.

The Hexes that I am looking at primarily are Evil Eye (to start the debuffing madness), Misfortune (to make it worse) and Cackle (to continue it). I do not want to go with Prehensile Hair. I dislike it for this concept and it can become nearly game breakingly powerful. Same with Slumber, that is just boring. Pass. Flight is good but I don't know if I will be able to fit it in before it loses its luster. Accursed Strike is definitely going to happen.

For Magus Arcana Arcane Accuracy is going to start looking REALLY good towards mid level. It will also help with landing those trips. Disruptive could be great if I could manage to threaten with a Whip. Same with Spellbreaker. Honestly, I just haven't played with enough of this stuff to know what would be good for this type of build.

I may not get a lot of room for Major Hexes in the build and if I go with more than 2 levels in anything other than Magus then I'll never get a Grand Hex. I'm not overly broken hearted about that. None of them really seem great for the build anyway.

As for Metamagic I definitely want Rime Spell. Not interested at all in Dazing Spell cheese. Merciful Spell might open up some possibilities with Enforcer. Persistant Spell could be good later on. Sickening Spell is good to lay on the debuffs. I will likely have to rely on Metamagic Rods for many of these though. I do not tend to play primary casters often so advice here would likely be helpful.

You are going to hate me for this... but it would also be sweet to throw in a few levels of the Thug rogue Archetype. Hear me out on this, though. Frightening extends shaken and can potentially Frighten my opponent. Frighten is an one of the best debuffs in the game (especially if I can find a way to threaten with the Whip... GR!). Sticking around for 2 levels nets me a Rogue Talent. There are so many good ones to choose from. Befuddling Strike or Offensive Defense are both good for the debuffing schtick. I could also just pick up Finesse Rogue or Combat trick to shore up my need for all these feats. Taking Ninja Trick to gain Pressure Points or Style Master (Crane Style) seems good. Staying for 3 levels gives me Brutal Beating to apply Sickened.

The problem is I don't think I can fit this all into a build.

I mean...
Lore Warden 4, Thug 3, Hexcrafter/Kensai 13 wouldn't be terrible, would it?
It would get me 4 bonus feats from Lore Warden (including Combat Expertise), 1 from Thug, 3 from Hexcrafter/Kensai (including Weapon Focus). It gets a free Hex, and will at some point gain a single Major Hex... though I don't know which one. Plus 10 feats over levels that comes out to 19 feats/hexes/talents/arcana or whatever. 20 if you include the one from Half-Elf.

It falls short of a 16 BAB though, which is unfortunate. I could shave off a Rogue or Fighter level, I guess. I would also get rewarded with Iajutsu Focus if I did so.

I dunno. I got a lot going on here. What do you think of where this all falls together as a concept?

RavingDork: Thank you for your post. I thought you might chime in eventually. I couldn't agree more.

Fruian Thistlefoot:
Independant of what the topic was that was being discussed you still chose to use a very generalized blanket statement. If you do not stand behind that statement you are welcome to retract it. It seems like you have done that to some extent already as you are now saying that a multi-layered defense is best which I would have agreed with if this was said originally. Either way, I do not need to defend my position as I believe it was done fairly well by the rest of the board goers. If you would like to argue your point then I would like to direct you to them.

I would, however, like to make some clarifications.

1. Making the Full Plate Barding out of Mithril adds 9K gold and doesn't add anything to AC. For the sake of just an AC based build you could safely remove that. ACP isn't going to be much of a negative to an Ankylosaurus anyway. Heck, you could make it out of adamantine if you'd prefer and the cost is only 6K more. That would give you 3/- DR for the whole layered defense approach. Or just have it made of steel and save the 9K to apply elsewhere.

2. I never made any claim that miss chance wasn't good. It is. This does not invalidate AC being good as well.

3. Getting mirror image on your Animal Companion seems to be more difficult than you think. If you are a druid it isn't on your spell list. As was pointed out potions of it do not exist. Wands exist but you need UMD for it as it can't be cast via share spells by anyone but the druid. If this is something that you are doing frequently then it is still an investment. It is an investment in something that isn't perminant, requires skill points to perform and likely has to be reapplied several times per day. In fact, due to the short duration of the spell you are likely using a combat round doing this when you could be doing something more effective. Personally, all things considered, I prefer a defense that is always on or at least has a long duration.

This is all fairly tertiary to the main issue that I had here. Its something that happens too often on these boards. I believe I gave good advice in that one good method of improving animal companions was to take armor proficiency feats to up their AC. I said this because AC is not a useless stat. Now, anyone can feel free to disagree, thats fine. Thats what message boards are for: sharing opinions.

But that isn't how it happened. My opinion was attacked calling it out as "a trap", a "double trap" and a "triple trap". Worse still to emphasize the point a blanket statement was made saying that AC itself is useless. Honestly, I don't think that was meant. I think it was simply something that was said out of frustration to drive a point home. But it was said. I think it also had to do with the thought that one person's opinion was more valid than another's probably based on the assumption that I was a neophyte and new to the system or the boards for making such a suggestion. I can assure you that neither are true. You could easily check up on this if you'd like but I don't feel like flashing my creds to validate my opinions as I don't feel that it is relavent to a constructive discussion.

By posting the question here I didn't take the statement out of context as the context was included in the statement itself. It was stated that AC is useless for PCs and animal companions. It appears that the popular opinion is that this is not true, that AC is a important part of the multi-layered defense particularly for a front-liner. I feel sufficiently validated.

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