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Vedavrex Misraria

Lune's page

Pathfinder Society Member. 1,516 posts. No reviews. No lists. 1 wishlist. 2 Pathfinder Society characters.


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As a DM I think it is a poor idea to fix character build issues by throwing extra gear at them. I do not reward failure. I certainly do not reward failure more than success.

"Let him learn his lesson on his own" comes across as harsh but it is close to the concept I go with. I would not drop extra loot only one character could use in excess of what other characters have. This breeds jealousy among players. It is likely they would be concerned why one player is getting more loot than another and plead favoritism.

I would rather the game unfold naturally and if he discovers that his build has left him wanting to offer to help him. Perhaps along the way you could point out where some of his weak spots are if he has them and offer advice.

In the end, it really is the player's choice how they build their character. Right? I mean, it isn't like you are going to tell him he isn't allowed to build his character any certain way, are you? So what is the real question here, anyway?


Take a look at this thread for some inspiration.


Get the chain shirt now. Shoot for Celestial Chain later.

The numbers don't lie, man. 22>18 (or 20)


zanbato13: If you are coming here asking for advice on how to make your character more survivable and better at doing what you want them to do then you have come to the right place. Rynjin is an experienced player and character builder, I would listen to his advice. It is all sound advice. Your saves and AC are too low for what you would expect to face at your level. He has showed that.

The only thing that I somewhat disagree with is the "spread too thin via multiclassing" thing. I have never been in the "you have to stay in one class to get the good stuff" camp. Multiclassing is used frequently for effective builds. The major exception being full casters. In fact, you can typically pick up some good saves via multiclassing.


Emparawr: You are mistaken that the Eldritch Heritage for Sylvan Bloodline has had an official ruling against it. It has been a hotly debated topic on the boards, I'll grant you that. However, people sharing their opinions here do not make it an official ruling. In fact, it isn't official until it has been errata'd. It appearing in a FAQ is the next best thing. Even a rules guy (like Sean K. Reynolds, but not someone like James Jacobs) would be something. Unfortunately, we have none of that.

So you are left with making a ruling based on your reading of the rules and if you think it is balanced or not.

You can ask us our opinion on it but I'm not sure how much that matters to you or your group. My personal opinion is that it is both RAW and RAI for Eldritch Heritage to work for not only any Wildblooded Bloodline but for Sylvan Bloodline specifically. I also do not believe that there is a balance issue with allowing this.

For the record, I do not think that a fair measuring stick is to compare it to Leadership. That is the most banned feat in Pathfinder games for a reason. It is the most powerful feat in the game by far. However, if you are trying to make a more limited version of Leadership (without followers and giving a limited selection) I believe that Eldritch Heritage Sylvan accomplishes that just fine. A 3 feat tax for a CL-1 Animal Companion seems balanced to me. A 2 feat tax for a CL-5 Animal Companion also seems balanced to me.


To that last feat I want to say, "Get your 4E mechanics out of my Pathfinder!"

But yeah. That is cheesey but completely legit. I agree that it is only invisibility though.


For those interested in this guide but not interested in Diabolists (like me) a repetition would be appreciated. If you think of it positively you already have the work done, you just need to transcribe it.

Also, yeah. There are a lot of outsiders. Want some help? How could we best assist?


Devilkiller: I understand and don't have an issue with it. Also, if you have a gun with multiple rounds loaded ahead of time you can still full attack with that gun.


A think that a list of common things (items, spells, feats, etc) that could improve your Charisma check would be helpful. That tends to be the biggest part you can control as a player about whether the spell works as intended or not.

Likewise, I agree with pad300 - choices of what to summon and the advantages of these would be helpful. Even if it isn't a complete list and just touches on the best choices.


Mmm... yeah. You are right. I somehow missed the "only". I guess I figured that it was using the same wording as the animal shaman archetypes and glossed over it. I declare it fairly balanced. (maybe still on the powerful side)


That is too powerful when compared to other archetypes.


Hrm... 3rd party?
I do not expect it to have a large impact (pun intended).


Why not just use Clustered Shots like everyone else?


Oh for the love of...

wraithstrike: Agreeing partially is a form of agreement. And that was what I was referring to. It is almost like you are arguing for the sake of argument now. It may behoove you to find places where you can agree on rather than focusing on the negative.

I did read his post. I didn't get the same thing out of it as you did. To me it sounded like he was saying that regardless of how much damage a Barbarian (example) can do when full attacking that in play the ranged attacker comes out more powerful if he can down a foe and move on to another. Even if he only barely downs the first foe and just simply scratches the second foe. The Barbarian could do 1 BILLION damage but the everything past their HP+1 goes to waste.

I don't think he has a problem with that per se, I think he was just pointing out that when comparing numbers on DPR meters that often people forget to take gameplay into consideration.

And I agree with him on that point. I think you do too.

I don't think his point is "OMGZ Ranged ppl are broken, where iz mah nerf stick?!" Of course, if that is what he meant then I will allow him to correct me and retract my agreement. ;)


Mmm, I think I hit a nerve. Sorry, wraithstrike. Look, at the very least I think you and Judokai agree on more than you disagree on for this topic. And I think you agree on where the major issues lie.

I mean, for my part I had also been saying from the start that combining Dex to damage with attacking touch AC was the issue. For my part I feel sufficiently vindicated that the numbers tend to agree. I'll bow out of the actual conversation now and just watch at the sidelines.

Also, I don't actually wanna see two dudes kissing. Figure of speech, I swear!


Mathwei, I share your frustration. But, I do not think it was all for naught. With the proper guidance I think that everyone has reached the same conclusion now.

I think that there have been several miscommunications. I take responsibility for my part in that, I know that text isn't always the easiest form of communication. It took a while to get to the crux of the matter but I think everyone is on the same page now.

kestral287 wrote:
I might be in the minority on that one but it looks like a grey area at best.

What is the grey area then? I think I got lost in your description of what you disliked. Is it something about Feral Combat Training?

Anyway, thank you for running the numbers with the IUAS and FCT in. Perhaps it would have been easier if I just would have posted sooner that a natural attacking build should include that. I do not mean it as a personal slight but I thought it should be an easy assumption to make. I think if that build went with Kensai it would work well too. I would try to include Multiattack as well but that would likely have to be pushed back significantly due to other feats being higher priority. I understand that it is with DM permission only but I haven't found a DM who wouldn't regularly allow that feat for a character who can take advantage of it regularly. Those two things should push the DPR up significantly.

I think we are all in agreement than the answer to the OP's original question is: "Yes. In fact, it can work fairly well." Maybe we should create another thread and see how far we can optimize it? I'd be down for giving some suggestions.


wraithstrike wrote:
Jodakai I may have asked this before but I don't remember. How do you determine how much DPR is too much to be able to consistently be dealt?

Now now, no fair asking questions you haven't given a straight answer to yourself.

I honestly think you two need to kiss and makeup. You agree on this topic!
Again...

Judokai wrote:


I mean we all know how powerful archers are, imagine an archer that gets DEX to damage and gets to use touch AC.

An archer that gets DEX to damage and goes against touch AC is stupid powerful.

An ARCHER with touch arrows and DEX to damage? Really? You don't see how game breaking that is?

Gunslingers do everything archers can but use touch AC's, so they never miss, and do DEX to damage.

For the record Touch AC's combined with DEX to damage is broken. Not just one or the other.

I can't imagine the damage she'd do if used touch attacks and got to add her DEX to damage.

Gunslingers do everything archers can but use touch AC's, so they never miss, and do DEX to damage.

And like I said before...

Me, earlier wrote:
]Yeah... I'm pretty sure that Judokai hit the nail on the head there, wraithstrike. You proved it with numbers, but he was saying that the problem seemed to be touch AC with Dex to damage. You can add the double barreled guns but I doubt they would even be an issue if the other two weren't.

And unless you are disagreeing with him that it is effective to be able to hit more targets after your first target is down and at range then I think we are all in agreement. Am I wrong?


Also, I can tell that Mathwei agrees with me about Accurate Strike working as he said this, here:

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

4. Caliking, you only get 4 natural attacks (the other 2 or iterative attacks with weapons) making all of them at BaB-5 and your iterative attacks are also at -5 (except the first one). You get a lot of attacks but with the natural penalty and the spell combat penalty you will be missing a lot. Arcane accuracy will remove the penalty (mostly) but any of the other forms will give you so much more from it.

(Calikang is nice but please remember you only get what's on their stat block so only 4 natural attacks and nasty penalties if you try to wield manufactured weapons. A sorceror or witch/hexcrafter who can grow claws however would get all 6 attacks).
Also all of it's special abilities are lost since the polymorph school doesn't allow you to get ANY of it's powers. It's a nice form but not good enough.

For the record he didn't rate Calikang strongly. As you can see, it is his 4th choice. The point is that he agrees that Arcane Accuracy works with natural attacks. Honestly, I do not understand where this disagreement comes from.


kestral287 wrote:
Now, if Precise Strike didn't include that line about not working with natural attacks, I'd be all for it.

Well then...

Monk's Unarmed Strike wrote:
A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

I'm not sure what you meant by "Precise Strike" because the only thing by that name I could find is a teamwork feat. I am going to assume you meant Accurate Strike which says:

Accurate Strike wrote:

Accurate Strike (Ex)

Prerequisite: Magus 9

Benefit: The magus can expend 2 points from his arcane pool as a swift action to resolve all of his melee weapon attacks until the end of his turn as melee touch attacks.

I do not see where it specifies that they have to be manufactured weapons. It says "melee weapon attacks". But even if it does have to be a manufactured weapon the above quoted part in Monk's Unarmed Strike takes care of that.

As for that working with your natural attacks that is what Feral Combat training is for.

Feral Combat Training wrote:

Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus with selected natural weapon.

Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.

Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature.

I would not base the effectiveness of a build on Accurate Strike though considering the speed at which that would eat up your Arcane Pool. However, for DPR calculations I would definitely want it there.

kestral287 wrote:
And when the thread opens by asking how well it works, mechanically

Actually, that is not what the original post was asking. Its right there in the topic. It is asking "A Natural Attacking Magus, Can it Work?". To which I think we have found that the answer is a resounding "yes".

Weirdo wrote:
That doesn't mean he can't be wrong. Look at the evidence in this thread. Look at the fact that you thought the build kestral used - Mathwei's build - "was a pretty bad build to be honest."

It also doesn't mean that he is automatically wrong because the build that was posted is suboptimal. Nor does this go towards answering the question that was posed.

Also see above about the difference between Precise Strike (a teamwork feat?) and Accurate Strike (a Magus Arcana).

What you say about the Catfolk build is close to what I had in mind. I would probably use Kensai rather than Eldritch Scion but I can see why you chose that.


kestral287 wrote:
...the other five are all at -5 BAB...

You must have missed where I said, "Multiattack"? ...and suddenly all those extra attacks are at only -2.

kestral287 wrote:
An optimized Magus would look very different from what I posted.

Well, I'm glad you agree because that is exactly what I was just saying. But you are the self proclaimed Magus expert. Why not make an optimized build yourself? Then pit it against the rapier Magus? Hey, that way you wont even be proving me right. You will be proving yourself right. And I know how much you like that.

Weirdo: Being that Mathwei has wrote a guide on Magus (albeit a limited guide) I would tend to believe that he knows what he is talking about. I would not say that you do not know what you are talking about either. However, I can see the strengths of it. I'm not sure about "optimal" but I can definitely see it as being effective and even competitive.

As I said before as I do not proclaim myself as an expert on Magus I would prefer not to post a build myself. I will leave that to people who have more experience than me. I will point out that even without knowledge of Magus I can see the effectiveness without a full build in front of me. I can imagine some things that would go into the build. So I can likewise imagine that you (and the other naysayers) can as well.


WalterGM is still around.


kestral287 wrote:
So yeah. Does that appease you enough to stop the passive-aggressive b@#**%$!, Lune?

First of all I think I wasn't being passive aggressive at all. I think my statements ("agressive"ness) were pretty straight forward. But to answer your question... not really. I thought it was a pretty bad build to be honest and it isn't surprising it did poorly against your rapier Magus.

Weirdo wrote:

A rapier magus at level 1, without spell combat, gets 1 attack.

If using spell combat to cast a non-touch spell, 1 attack.
If using spell combat to cast a touch spell, 2 attacks.

A magus with claw/claw/bite, without spell combat, gets 3 attacks.
If using spell combat to cast a non-touch spell, 1 attack*.
If using spell combat to cast a touch spell, 2 attacks**.

Yes, I follow. We agree here. I can see that the rapier Magus is getting the same number of attacks as the natural weapon Magus. This does not appear inferior to me. In fact, it looks fairly even.

Weirdo wrote:
They do work well, but then your entire build revolves around FCT...

I'm sorry... perhaps I was mistaken. I had thought that you were on the other side of this debate. So, your stance is that natural weapon Magus is a viable build that does work well if build correctly?

I want to point out something that I am fairly certain is being missed. With a single level of Monk you could take all of your iterative attacks, get the rest of his natural attacks that are not using that "hand", use Spell Combat and Spellstrike. To be fair, a rapier Magus could do this too. Well, that is, if he invested in IUAS or a Monk level. But he wouldn't be getting things that would improve his natural attacks as it wouldn't be part of his normal schtick. A natural attacking Magus would.

So...while the 10th level rapier Magus is getting his third attack with his Rapier and having to deal with the increasing negatives of iterative attacks the natural attacking Magus can get all of his iterative attacks with IUAS, his natural attacks that are not using that "hand" and still take advantage of Spell Combat and Spellstrike. That should be at minimum 4 more attacks that the rapier Magus isn't getting. They are secondary attacks so suffer the -5 penalty, but it is only a single -5 penalty. When his BAB goes up to allowing 3 iterative attacks he can make all of those at the increasing negatives just like a rapier Magus but still keeps his natural attacks at only the -5. If he gets Multi Attack it is only -2. And all of those attacks benefit from AoMF, GMF, etc.


Read this FAQ.

The FAQ wrote:


Magus: When using spell combat, can the weapon in my other hand be an unarmed strike or a natural weapon?

Yes, so long as the weapon is a light or one-handed melee weapon and is associated with that hand. For example, unarmed strikes, claws, and slams are light melee weapons associated with a hand, and therefore are valid for use with spell combat. A tail slap is not associated with a hand, and therefore is not valid for use with spell combat.

Spell Combat does not go to waste. And why does Spellstrike not work? I think it would for the same reason Spell Combat does in the above FAQ.

I was referring to getting GMF made permanent. It can stack with an AoMF. But you are absolutely correct, Wands work as well. Strong Jaw would be excellent for a Wand.

Good call on those feats but I feel like those are for niche builds. Whip Master is for sure.

IUAS + FCT are not a heavy feat tax. Certainly not any worse than Fencing Grace or Dervish Dance and Weapon Finesse. Especially considering you can make your full iterative attacks with IUAS and follow up with your natural attacks all at -5. Then you are getting use out of your FCT as well. If you go with Kensai you could pick Unarmed Strike as your "chosen weapon" and use Perfect Strike with it and/or your natural attacks.

I guess I'm just not seeing why they wouldn't work well.


Clausyre... I mean, Peter Green, I agree. That is the style of game that I think all of the players besides the problem player want to play in. And that is the style of game the DM wants to run. But he is... as I say, contrary.


It kinda just gives the middle finger to DR. I might have to stat something up. Unless prototype00 would rather?


Well, he didn't "attack the party" per se. He charmed them. It was a charm chain. He just wanted them to agree with him, so he forced them to.

I know. Hazy ground on whether that is actually "attacking" them. I get your meaning either way. I'm not going to defend his actions.


Mmm... I think I may have just broke something.

I have potentially two questions.

1. Does Feral Combat Training work with Pummeling Style? I read the errata to both and I believe it does.

2. Assuming the answer to 1. is a "yes" ... did I just make the Conquerer Ooze build top the DPR meters?

Being able to charge, full attack with a flurry of uberslam, free action trip and do everything else that slam can do (stunning fist, etc) seems very powerful. Very. Powerful.

PS. Welcome back, prototyp00!


By the way, as an update I can tell you that not much about the situation has changed.

We got sent a new party leader from Moon Base Alpha. She is some sort of divine caster and has a cohort that is also some kind of divine caster. They cleared everyone's (including the familiar's) blindness. The familiar was cured very reluctantly and she gave a warning to the Witch that the familiar issues have been known for some time and would be dealt with upon her return to Moon Base Alpha.

That made me feel somewhat relieved... until she said we wouldn't be returning right away. We needed to finish our mission and that meant exploring a fort to the north. On our journey we were attacked by a pair of boulder throwing Hill Giants. Honestly, our archer could have handled them solo and I only got a single full attack in on them. Not much of a challenge to our party. The physical monsters rarely are. Then we met a Stone Giant trying to sell rune stones. The Witch was interested even though she couldn't use them. The Giant offered to take the Familiar in trade and said that he would be happy to help it, guard it and keep it as a pet. He said he could do a fair better job of it than the Witch could too. I tried to convince the Familiar that this was a better fate for it than what awaited it by staying with us. I think I almost convinced it.

Our archer is also our scout and when he tried scouting he failed some Stealth checks. He was spotted and some bugbears attacked him. He ... like any great scout ... yelled and brought them back to his party. (/facepalm) We dealt with them but not without being noticed by their encampment outside the fort. In a rush we all used potions provided mostly by my character and entered the fort invisibly. All except the archer, that is, as there wasn't enough to go around and we figured he would have the best chance of entering without being spotted.

... we were spotted just after entering. That is where we ended.

So basically my party is stuck dealing with the stupid Quasit until we can get back to the Moon Base. It is going to be dealt with in some way then according to what my DM says. I don't know what he has in mind. I offered some of the suggestions from my last post. He didn't tell me what he has in mind, but it is clearly something as he didn't think the solutions I offered would work with what he had in mind. I'll leave it to him, I guess. It is probably the best solution to let him resolve it anyway.

Well, I guess I can just hope that the character gets killed. Hm... maybe that is what he has in mind...


Thank you, Peter. I have done it before. I do not think that I am a better DM. In fact, I'm not comfortable making that kind of judgement at all. However, I will say that the one thing that I learned is that the problem player's agenda can be curbed. I gave a set of rules for character creation before we started playing. I said if you want in the game you have to abide by these rules. He made his character according to those rules and I think it is the smoothest game we have ever played with him.

...unfortunately it still ended in him turning on the party. To my defense he was charmed by a Siren, though. A lot of those things that would normally give your character a save he denied the save for saying that it was within his character to act close to the way she was directing him to. He was right, really. It did upset the party, they had gripes they brought up and basically everyone lost interest in playing that game. I wasn't broken up by it, though. Our current DM and I typically go back and forth as being the ones who DM. I was ready to tag off.

I DMed again and ran everyone through The Red Hand of Doom module as my son's first formal group experience in playing Pathfinder. I gave very similar rules to character creation that time. We made it all the way through that module with everyone being constructive. The only time he was even a little contrary was when he had to hold the paladin (current DM's character) back from attacking the Ghost Lord. If you are familiar with the module, it is a good thing he did too. That entire campaign went off without a hitch.

I get your meaning, though. I guess at this point I am looking for ways to petition the GM. I hate pointing out problems without bringing a solution. For this I believe it has to involve an in character solution as well as an out of character solution. And the DM has to be onboard 100%. So I am looking for ideas for the DM to use, basically.


Weirdo posted a build. Mathwei posted a build. Kudos to you two! Good builds too. You would think this would be an easy feat for someone who is writing a guide to do.

Weirdo, the way I see it the difference is between iterative vs. natural attack:

Natural attacks have the advantage of all hitting with the same attack boni. The other advantage being that many things that enchant a single natural attack enchant them all. The downfall being that you have to pay more for the enchantment to your attack. Another benefit is that there are several things that can enchant your natural attacks beyond what can be done for a weapon (Greater Magic Fang, Body Wraps, etc). There are also things that can increase the base damage of natural attacks like Improved Natural Attack, Strong Jaw, etc and these work for several natural attacks at a time. I can't think of any feats that work for manufactured weapons (Equipment Trick, I guess?) that will not work for natural attacks but the same isn't true the other way around. Feral Combat Training opens up a lot of possibilities and there are feats like Dragon Style, etc that help as well. These feats do not work for a manufactured weapon.

Iterative attacks have to use the decreasing by -5 for each attack routine. You can increase the existing enhancements to your weapon just like you can with natural attacks but the benefit is that it is cheaper and easier to get a magic weapon. The downfall is that while you get several iterative attacks you are probably getting less total attacks than the natural attacking character and at a decreasing bonus. While manufacture weapons have Lead Blades as an answer to Strong Jaw, Strong Jaw is more powerful. Threat range is often going to be greater with manufactured weapons, what with a Scimitar being so popular and all. Natural attacks can have their threat range increased as well but it isn't as good.

There are things that work on both like size increase. These kinds of things benefit natural attacks more than they do manufactured weapons because you are going to be hitting more often with more attacks with a natural attack routine. I am not by far an expert on Magi, nor do I feel a need to post a build as I do not have anything to prove here. Nor do I think that without a fair amount of research could I post a competitive build for one. However, these are things that hold true for all types of characters when considering manufactured weapons vs. natural weapons. I saw the builds and I still do not really see how the manufactured weapon Magus pulls out ahead. The natural weapon magus has more available to it to increase the effectiveness of it's attacks.

So if you will pardon my ineptitude perhaps you can point out where the flaw in this logic is?


It is definitely a more pricey option but for ideas you may want to take a look into Alea Tools. If you are a handy person you could make them yourself.


Hmm: Tentacles? O.o ... tell me more. You have peaked my interest. ;P

Braxon: Do I get the idea that your wife is more of the "build me a character that does X, I want to get to the playing ASAP" type? If so, I understand. I have been there/done that before.

Typically once they are hooked on gaming they develop an interest in building the character eventually. If she isn't that type, I agree with Hmm. We want to say hello to her. You should have her make an account on the forums so she can post. :) Just tell her we are pro's at taking the scariness out of the multitude of options.

I can't speak for everyone but I can tell you that Hmm, myself and several others are parents of children that we game with. Sometimes I know it is helpful to get advice from people who have been where you are at now.


Braxon,

I hope you guys have a lot of fun with it and that our suggestions are helpful. Feel free to come back any time. I can speak from experience in saying that I agree that kids can pick up the game quickly. Well, depending on the kid, of course. My son is 12yrs old and we talk to each other about character builds as one of our favorite past times. He actually has turned out to be very insightful.


Angry Wizard: Thanx for the bump! :) I have been thinking about this more lately and adding to my collection. I still have to check out if Broken Zenith made any advancement on his site for this stuff. Can't view it while at work.

I have found several recent songs to add to my list. Honestly a search for "Symphonic Metal" tends to offer some great battle songs. Some of them are great for dungeons as well.


Ah, someone posted in this thread again.

Hazrond: I would suggest making a new thread and describe what you want to accomplish, what is allowed, stat array, etc for more directed advice.

Looks like kestral287 never got around to posting a build either. Can't say I'm surprised. I would say Mathwei's build works just peachy.


The stat boost that Just a Mort was referring to is the one gained at every fourth level due to leveling.


That seems rather arbitrary.


Ah. Whew! ;)

Wait, were they never allowed in PFS? Or was there some change? ...I don't keep up on PFS stuff.


Silenced Adamantine Morningstar "Master Key". I like it. *yoink*


We used to refer to characters in the old school MMOs as "toons". Like in Ultima Online and EverQuest. In fact, I haven't heard of it much outside of those games. I'm not sure where the original term came from though.


Wait... did I miss something? Do Aasimars and Tieflings no longer qualify for Mystic Theurge from their SLAs? Or is that not what you were saying?


Yep. You are right. Use Armor Spikes instead.

Out of curiosity... have Armor Spikes ever dropped for anyone as treasure? ...like... ever? I mean, I am guessing that one always has to have their armor spikes enchanted separately from their armor. One might find armor that is enchanted but rarely spiked armor with the armor spikes already enchanted. ...and never armor spikes separately. On the other hand, I would think the odds of finding an enchanted spiked gauntlet are far higher (though likely low in comparison to most other weapons).


Also, I believe that Broken Zenith started a collection up on his site based on suggestions in that thread. Here is a link.


Is it time for a revival of The Epic Pathfinder Music Thread?!


It is campaign specific and while I can understand the sentiment of not allowing it, I would. The only campaign specific things that I typically disallow are things that only make sense in a particular setting. That is something that seems generally useful and has no flavor leaning it towards a specific setting. These are all opinions, of course. I am just presenting the options available. YMMV


I don't think we disagree. I was saying that a class (not necessarily a Summoner itself) that was dedicated to summoning isn't typically going to make a great buffer. I agree that Summoners do a passable job of that though it isn't their primary role. It is actually debatable whether Summoners are the best summoners in the game. There are several threads talking about it. Personally, I believe that a Samsaran Wizard is the best summoner.

It seems we agree on the complication being an issue for what the OP is wanting, though. We also agree that Evangelist would be good. Good call on Arcanist Occultist as well.

I think we still agree on most things. And you still have an attractive avatar. ;)


Oh, there is also a Trait that gives Trapfinding.


Secret Wizard: I think you can paint with a broader brush than that. ;) Rogues need love in general.

I would also second the suggestions to go Slayer. Slayers make better Rogues than Rogues do. (In fact, most things make better Rogues than Rogues do, unfortunately.) I think it makes more sense for this build too.

Also, if you haven't discovered it already, www.d20pfsrd.com is a great resource for seeing what all these other archetypes, classes, feats, etc are that we are mentioning. I still am a proponent of buying the books that you find a lot of these resources in, but this allows you to see what resources you want to buy the books for. It is a great business model, IMO.


I want to read this rant. Post it immediately, please.


You mention the guide to class guides. Honestly, there isn't likely to be any information that we can give here that isn't touched on in those guides without some more direction for what your wife wants to do with the character.

Summoning is a great option but Sorcerer is one of the worst classes to do it with. They do not get standard action summons like other classes can. Cleric or Druid can easily do this with Archetypes or feats. This is doubly bad for Sorcerer as when they apply metamatic feats to spells it makes them full round actions so even their non-summoning spells that are metamagiced are going to be full round actions. While I do not normally suggest it if you want a summoning based character the most direct route is summoner.

Two things I would warn you away from summoner, though. First, while they are good at battlefield control they do not serve the buffing role you are referring to. Second, you said you wanted to keep it simple(ish) for her. Summoners are far from it. There are things you can do to make it easier (think like flash cards with stats for frequent selections for summons on them) but it is still one of the most complex classes in the game.

IMO, if you are looking for a summoning buffing character I would strongly suggest taking a look at the Evangelist Cleric Archetype. It has everything you are looking for. ...but I wouldn't suggest a summoner.

If you are looking for a background buffer then a couple of good options would be a Bard or perhaps check out the new class Skald. There are a lot of straight forward buffing options with both.

One other thing to mention: If you are using your spells mostly as buffs rather than things that require your opponent to make a save then you typically do not need a stellar casting stat. High casting stat is usually more important for spell saves than for bonus spells.

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