Louis Lyons's page

I'm preparing to start Ironfang Invasion and really enjoy the plot progression through books 1-4 of the AP. Book 6 looks very creative and is well packaged as the finale of the AP also. My problem (not only with this AP but many of Paizo's) is that the focus of the campaign shifts too far from the goals of the players as the story progresses. Book 5 is a great example of this.

Why would the party spend the time and risk so much when diving into the Fangwood? I just don't think that the history of this scarey fey-filled land would lead many to believe the denizens would get involved in the war. The side quest of gaining the aid of anything within this forest is lending more to the production of the necessary number of volumes for the AP and the publisher's requirements rather than fortifying the great classic story of the Ironfang Invasion.

What would you recommend changing to make the story work when slicing out book 5 (other than CR modifications in book 6)?

Am I missing something and making a big mistake in the narrative by shortening the AP?

If anyone else has done this or is considering it, what have you done to make dropping book 5 work for your group?

Thanks for your feedback!

I completely understand your sentiment. Now, me, personally, I would replace the 5th book of Ironfang Invasion with the 3.5 Module Red Hand of Doom (leveling up and converting a lot of the enemies in that book appropriately). Because I think if the players are dealing with and attempting to stop an invasion of Hobgoblins, many of them are going to want to actually stop the invasion of Hobgoblins. I have a copy of that module and was going to use particular elements in it for my game at the appropriate juncture, so there is an idea for you.

I was going to go with a dramatic origin story where the paladin was given his powers fighting some chaotic evil attack and entered a contract to fight evil forever. I like the paladin being constantly high instead.

The opium throws off his perceptions about what is the greater evil to face allowing him to worship Asmodeus without thinking anything of it. Giving his oppenents 1d8 of temp hp with every swing seems like an honorable thing to do.

Maybe go with the chosen one archetype. Wait would that let you get an imp familiar as a paladin. You could have it start as a raven that only speaks infernal and tells our erstwhile crusader what to do. then it turns into an imp. If it is on golarion he could help our paladin constantly plan his crusade to purge the moon of evil.

Don Quixote style crusading sounds better than rigid enforcer.
ain't no rule saying paladins can't do all the drugs. Heck lay on hands and lesser restoration can get rid of the ability damage.

Alright, while I do give you points for fun zaniness, this does not jive from either a mechanical or RP perspective. And perhaps you could play a drug-addled fallen Paladin who thinks he is a wonderful person who has been given amazing divine powers by Asmodeus, when in reality your character is just delirious junky with delusions of grandeur. Because I cannot see how you would have any goodly divine powers whatsoever.

First, from whence would this hypothetical Paladin's powers actually emerge? In order to be a Paladin, you have to be both lawful and good, and stand for justice and abide by the Paladin's Code. While you do not necessarily have to worship a Good God like Clerics do, you do have to abide by the Paladin's code. Worshipping and following the moral precepts of an Evil God isn't simply "associating" with a lesser evil in order to defeat a greater evil. You are making yourself a servant to one of the greatest evils in the multiverse...Asmodeus is literally the divine embodiment of tyranny and oppression. And again, your character is LITERALLY WORSHIPPING HIM AND PUTTING HIS FAITH IN HIM. This isn't a mere "association" or "alliance of convenience," unless your understanding of religious conviction is like that of Beni Gabor's from The Mummy. Just wear a holy symbol and mutter some incantations. That's all a religion is!

Second, being a drug addict generally means you are giving into your most base desires (the pursuit of physical pleasure through drug highs) at the cost of other important moral duties. I do not know if you have had to deal with drug-addicted people IRL who are constantly high. The novelty of being around someone who constantly puts him/herself in a pleasurable drug-induced stupor wears off very quickly.

Now, perhaps you can play a Paladin who is able to maintain both his lawful good alignment while still being a slave to his drug addiction, never breaking any moral precepts or being derelict in his duties all the while being addicted to opium. A lot of drug addicts are able to live relatively normal lives and can function while in the grip of addiction, and can continue to do so as long as they can feed their addiction (at least until their addiction interferes with their lives and things fall apart and they choose to continue feeding their addiction over maintaining their other social responsibilities). In that same vein, the moment your paladin character has to choose between following his alignment and code, or feeding his addiction, what does he do? If he always follows his code lives up to his alignment and his code and does not fall...what exactly was the point from an role playing perspective? Why is he a drug addict if you are not going to play him as a drug addict? And if you are playing someone who you know is going to be unable to maintain his alignment when push comes to shove, why on earth be a Paladin?

I mean, if you want to play a character who is destined to fail and basically fall in the first play session, bully for you. I cannot think of a better character concept for such purposes. But, again, why not play the drug-addicted fighter or rogue? Or wizard or alchemist for that matter? Why do you want to play a character that you are essentially trying to cripple right out of the gate?

Alright, while I have read the campaign, I wanted to know how great an in-game time-span others feel the adventure takes? Several months? A year? Two years? How long do other people feel this adventure should take?

PossibleCabbage wrote:

VigorBird wrote:

It shouldn't be an abstraction if Detect Alignment spells are a real game mechanic for determining a character's moral compass.

A 5' square grid is also a real game mechanic for determining how everything moves around, but we understand this is an abstraction to enhance the tactical aspect of playing the game, rather than something people in the diagesis think about ever.

Well, I firmly believe 5' grids are the basis for Pathfinder physics. A human cannot stand in the middle of a traditionally-aligned ten foot by ten foot room; they will be drawn by inexorable forces to one of the corners.

Or go into a 15 x 15 room in order to find his center.

Another similar one is in Paizo's 3.5 Module Clash of the Kingslayers.

I generally do group initiative for this reason: Time management. I have played in games where the GM insists on rolling individual initiative for every single last combatant, and things slow to an absolute crawl, adding at least a half hour to an hour to our combats. Now I realize that this isn't the sole factor in causing combats to come to a crawl, and some GMs are better than others at planning out and executing their battle strategies (or reacting quickly to changes), while others take a bit more time to plan or look things up. The same goes for players as well. But I feel that individual initiative rolls for groups of statistically-identical NPC adversaries do slow things down. The same goes for players as well.

When I run, my groups tend to have a good number of players (5-6 on average) and I often put in several adversaries to up the challenge level for them. Because of this, when I have them fighting, say, a group of eight elite hobgoblin warriors plus their commander and supporting battle cleric, I will roll separate initiative for the commander, separate for the cleric, and group the eight elite warriors together (or perhaps two groups of 4-member squads, one ranged, one melee or something similar). My combats tend to go rather swiftly, and my players do not have to wait 15 to 30 minutes for their turn tapping the table impatiently or playing Candy Crush, and I think that rolling group initiatives helps to achieve this.

Trail of the Hunted says a lot about how much time they're going to spend in the Fang Wood - like the crazy storm that thrashes your camp if you're not already moved into the Trog Cave. My question is, what's a good way to keep track of time but also a good way to drag out the time they spend in the woods so they do all of the events? I'm thinking of limiting my players to 3 excursions a week, the rest will be spent maintaining their gear, healing, tending to the refugees, and maintaining the militia. Any suggestions?

I'm facing the same question myself because I want to keep track of time in a way that feels natural and organic and to mark the passage of time. I intend to simply buy a regular day planner calendar (though a wall calendar will work), replace the months with Golarion Months, and cross of the days as they go by since the beginning. That way I can keep track of in-game time as the weeks and months go by, as well as the seasons, so that I can add environmental and weather changes such as snow, ice, winds and rain as the seasons change. I intend for the game to begin at the start of Spring (the market Festival will be held on the Vernal Equinox). And of course I can calendar particular future events and encounters that will happen.

Personally? On top of the list you have given, I would recommend:

1. Pathfinder Player Companion: Animal Archive, because this is the first AP where you can take your animal companion EVERYWHERE.

2. Pathfinder Player Companion: Legacy of the First World, because of the ties to the Fey Wild.

I've read through the first Ironfang Invasion book, but I've been hesitant to buy more until I know whether or not I'm gonna run it. Now that we're (almost) at the end, what's the overall impression people have of the adventure? Any weak sections/books? How does it compare to other adventure paths?

Since I am preparing to run the Ironfang Invasion as my main campaign in the next few months, my overall impression of it is extremely favorable and I would recommend it. One's mileage may vary, of course, but most of the Adventure Paths written by Paizo that I have truly enjoyed generally have one or two books that feel "out of place" or just do not match the tone set up by the prior books (or just plain do not work for me). For example, becoming the Kwizatz Haderach for the Shoanti Tribes in Book 4 of Curse of the Crimson Throne springs to mind as a massive departure from the general tone of a dark urban Gothic Horror adventure that I simply found jarring (it felt more like it belonged in Rise of the Runelords if anything, but that is neither here nor there). The Ironfang Invasion is the first Adventure Path where I do not feel that anything feels out of place. Everything seems to connect. And I love it.

As far as the adventure itself, and whether you would want to run it, it depends on what you enjoy. Here are some of the adventure's selling points:

1. It has a very classic Dungeons & Dragons feel, in that it takes place away from major civilization; Large portions involve wilderness exploration and survival; There are several dungeons to explore and delve into; and, of course, the adversaries are classic creatures of D&D, including an army of evil goblins, dragons, and a wicked fairy queen to defeat.

2. There is a wide array of environments too keep things interesting, but they are much more grounded in classic fantasy adventure. It involves forests, hills and plains, mountains and valleys, and the Darklands/Underdark, and later, extraplanar locations such as the Fey Wild and the Elemental Plane of Earth.

3. This is a game that involves careful resource management, and I do not just mean the new survival points subsystem, but that the characters must learn to use limited supplies, weaponry and items wisely. In the first two books, the players will not have the luxury of buying or selling much in the way of magic items, with the exception of the svirfneblin merchant if they find her. Even then, they can only buy and sell a limited number of things once per week. This changes of course when the players get to Longshadow and later to Kraggodan (or other locations in Nirmathas/Molthune if the GM allows). Speaking as a player, I love being able to survive by the skin of my teeth for the first several levels with limited resources before I get access to being able to purchase the fun toys that are higher level magic items.

4. The AP overall as others have mentioned is very sandboxy, so the world is both yours and your players' oyster. Because the campaign area is mainly open wilderness and frontier, this gives the GM many opportunities to put in encounters and dungeon locations in such a way as they do not feel forced or arbitrary. Nirmathas already has ancient Elven locations (such as Fangwood Keep), as well Dwarven ruins, not to mention Vault Builders. I plan on running Crypt of the Everflame, and having locations from Hollow's Last Hope/Crown of the Kobold King, and, of course, Fangwood Keep for my players to run across.

However, what are selling points for me may not be selling points for you, or, just as important, for many of your players. If you are gaming with players who have gotten used to being able to immediately go back to town to rest, recuperate and sell their loot and commission new custom weapons, armor, equipment and/or magic items, and they expect that from the early game onwards that is definitely going to be a problem. If your group wants to run an adventure that is much more heavily urban-based, or WAY more dungeon crawls, this is not for them (look to CoCT or Shattered Star). And if your players do not enjoy the sandbox, and prefer an adventure with much more clearly mapped-out goals to start off with (other than mere survival), then that might be a problem too for the first couple of books. Additionally, the classic feel itself, despite being polished to a mirror shine (whether the environment, the plot, the characters, the adversaries, etc.), may feel stale to some players who prefer to eschew the familiar and focus on novel or perhaps even outlandish adventures (I'm looking at you, Iron Gods).

So in the end, it is up to you as to whether you would wish to spend the money, time and effort purchasing the books or pdfs and running this adventure. I certainly did, and I think this is a phenomenal AP. But only you know what you enjoy, and, just as importantly, what your players enjoy. Take that into consideration above all else.

Dot

Hey guys

so my players are slowly working through Crown of the Kobold King. My LG War Priest has succumbed to the kiss of a Vargouille.

Now the only solution I can see out of this situation is the Heartripper Blade at the end of the dungeon. But using he has to sacrifice a creature which I would consider an evil act

do you think that using it should have ramifications on his alignment/spells/abilities in some way?

I find it helps to bring some moral clarity to most alignment questions, and many might be best solved by a version of the Golden Rule.

Most alignment questions seem to boil down to this:

"This Player of mine is proposing to commit [X Action] against [Particular Character] to achieve [Supposed Good Result]. Is [X Action] an evil act under the circumstances?"

Just replace [Particular Character] with someone you love and care for deeply. Perhaps your spouse or life partner; perhaps your child; perhaps a sibling or dearest friend.

Now, if [X Action] were committed against your loved one in a real life situation, would you consider it a heinous act? Would it shatter your life, traumatize your and perhaps permanently ruin your psyche knowing such an act were committed against someone you loved and treasured so much? If the answer to any of these questions is yes...it is probably an evil action.

Sawing someone's heart out while they are still alive and devouring it to cure a life threatening illness is probably squicky when you are sitting around the table passing the chips and Mountain Dew. Now try to imagine that being done to your son or daughter. In my opinion, you can call the person who did that many things. Good is not one of them. Even if they claim "But I really, REALLY needed to do that! Honest!"

In my opinion, I think you made the right call, Dylan.

Yes, I definitely prefer an opener to give the party a reason to know and like each other beyond mere survival. I am going to be running "Hollow's Last Hope." The abandoned monastery will be located in Fangwood and was erected by Droskarite exiles from the Dwarven Sky Citadel of Kraggodan centuries prior. The worg Graypelt, meanwhile, will be a scout for the Ironfang Legion, who has helped map out the woods and find the location of the three Chernasardo ranger forts.

I'm looking forward to running this.

So here is my question to fellow GMs and the staff at Paizo: By the time the PCs become high enough level (say, after Assault on Longshadow), what is to stop them from leading an attack to liberate Phaendar and its surviving enslaved inhabitants from the Ironfang Legion’s clutches? The reason I ask is because if I was playing a character with deep connections to Phaendar, my goal would be to liberate my hometown. Or, if taking Phaendar would be too costly, at the very least staging a rescue of its enslaved inhabitants and bring them to safer territory.

By the time the players are finished with Assault on Longshadow, and assuming they have achieved victory, the PCs are now at 11th or perhaps even 12th level. They are no longer on the run and surviving by the skin of their teeth. Presuming that things went as well as they could have during the siege, they have the economically prosperous town of Longshadow in their pocket; the refugees from the first AP are safe either in their forest hold or in Longshadow; the Chernasardo rangers are behind them; and many inhabitants of Longshadow realize the Ironfang legion is definitely a long-term threat, and may be willing to join the PCs going far afield in order to stop the Legion from ever threatening their homes and loved ones again. Presuming the players use the Militia Rules, they should have a fairly well-established militia with teams to carry out their goals across southern Nirmathas. And by this time, the PCs are responsible for having crushed an Ironfang army, killing, capturing and scattering over two thousand hobgoblin soldiers and their allies. If they did superlatively well during the siege, it is likely that the PCs might be more than a little drunk off their own victory (or may simply wish to capitalize on their success) and itching to take the fight to the Ironfang Legion.

With all that in mind, it certainly isn’t unreasonable to think that many PCs forced to flee in the first AP as their hometown burned around them and their friends and loved ones were killed or dragged into slavery will be either be (1) hopeful that they can rescue the surviving enslaved people of Phaendar and (2) thirsty for revenge, and now have the power and wherewithal to exact it. What are some possible rewards for capturing the newly fortified citadel of Phaendar? What would the challenges be? Are there any modules out there that could give a GM like myself some ideas of assaulting/infiltrating a heavily fortified base to rescue hundreds of civilians? Or would such an idea be overly disruptive, derailing the campaign as the Adventure Path is written if the PCs did so? If Phaendar is practically a hopeless deathtrap at this point, what are some good ideas to discourage headstrong PCs from rushing headlong to their doom?

...OR am I getting ahead of myself and a section in one of the upcoming APs has been devoted to carefully detailing the possibility of retaking Phaendar and rescuing its people?

Hey Louis, that was a great post, but I think you accidentally posted it three times.

Ugh, the embarrassment. Thanks, Axial. I flagged the extra posts.

Trail of the Hunted contains several references to hobgoblin soldiers being paid in gold for services or bounties. There's even an army payroll that comes up at one point.

Where do they spend it?

I thought that in Golarion, hobgoblins raid and pillage and use slave labor (and the downtrodden non-soldier hobgoblin underclass) to get the goods and services they need. Maybe I'm wrong, but I wasn't under the impression that there was a well established enough goblinoid civilization for them to have their own economy and commerce (except Kaoling in Tian Xia and maybe in the Darklands) and most cities don't really welcome hobgoblins (at least not in army platoon form.)

What's the point of coin, if you don't have anywhere to spend it?

I can think of a couple few places where they could, like Kaer Maga and Urgir, but it seems like a long way to go to spend your foot-soldier wages.

Honestly, I could copy/paste this query for most situations involving "monster-folk" carrying coin pouches when they don't seem to have an opportunity to participate in trade and commerce.

Very good questions. First, let us look at the hobgoblin people as a whole. Unlike orcs, Hobgoblins are not a barbaric hunter-gatherer society. Unlike their kin the goblins who live in relatively small tribes, or bugbears which gather in small familial bands, Hobgoblins form themselves into massive armies that need literal tons of foodstuffs each day to stay functional when at war. At the very least, even at peacetime, the hobgoblins need to be able to feed themselves. Even if they only eat meat (I cannot remember if Hobgoblins are carnivorous; I thought they were omnivorous?), they still need cattle, sheep, goats, and the fodder with which to feed them. They would thus need the means of growing massive amounts of food that only agricultural societies are capable of producing. But as has been established in the canon, Hobgoblins are not farmers or herders. They are warriors and slave masters. The only tools fit for hobgoblin hands are the sword and the whip, not the plow or shepherd's crook. In spite of their violent nature, Hobgoblins are one of the most "civilized" of the monster races and are capable of developing complex, hierarchical societies with functioning economies. As has been shown in your cited example of Kaoling, this is one example of a major Hobgoblin society and it is a brutally rigid, stratified caste system reminiscent of Japan's government during the Edo Period under the Tokugawa Shogunate. The Hobgoblins act as the Samurai caste, and non-hobgoblins are serfs who must demonstrate absolute obedience and provide goods and services to their military masters in exchange for protection.

With that extremely long preamble out of the way, as for what hobgoblins in general spend their money on in a practical sense, they would most likely spend their money trading for goods that they do not have the ability to make (or force their slaves to produce) with traders and societies who are too powerful for them to conquer or enslave outright. The second thing that Hobgoblins spend their spoils or military pay on, most likely, would be slaves. As a helotistic society, the center of Hobgoblin life and its economy, both in war time and in peacetime is slavery. Third, the hobgoblins would pay each other for the products of their respective slaves' labor. A hobgoblin who owns several shepherd slaves and sheep would probably sell meat to hobgoblins who like the taste of fresh mutton lamb and want something more than the standard military fare (which probably consists of heavily salted or dried meats); or might sell wool to a hobgoblin who owns a family of enslaved weavers, and in turn sells woolen cloaks and clothing to hobgoblins who want warm-weather gear, etc. And finally, the Fourth thing that Hobgoblins would spend their money on would be land to either purchase or lease. The reason I say land is because what good would be owning a bunch of slaves whose only useful skill is farming if they have no land with which to farm? Or slave miners if there are no mines or quarries that their owner has a right to use? Or for that matter, land on which the slaves would live while their master is off to war?

With that in mind, looking at the Hobgoblins of the Ironfang Invasion (and depending on how the series of APs unfolds), it would be necessary for them to develop a monetary system for their own internal trade economy for the above reasons. First, they are capturing large swathes of territory and enslaving many thousands of people who will act their tillers of soil, hewers of wood, and drawers of water. These enslaved people will literally be the means of production who would provide the goods and services to their hobgoblin overlords. Working under the presumption that individual hobgoblins of whatever rank can purchase and own slaves, the mark of wealth and prestige in their society would be the number of slaves one owns as well as any particular slave's individual talents. I imagine that a hobgoblin who owns a dwarven blacksmith slave would be considered of far greater prestige (and probably would have had to have been of higher rank to afford purchasing such a talented slave) than a hobgoblin who owned, say, a family of turnip farmer slaves.

I just want to point out that is a famous moral dilemma discussed for years. The tram problem.

The tram problem goes as follows: there is a tram traveling down a track towards a fork. One side of the fork has multiple people tied to it. The other side has one. The tram will hit the many people unless you pull a level to send it down the other fork.
The same situation could apply to people walking across the forks. Not tied down. So no third party has any blame.

There are also defined moral reasons to explain how people have been arguing this. I can't for the life of me remember the names. One says that any action or inaction is wrong as it results in death. Utilitarian morals I believe they are called, state that inaction is the wrong choice as action to shift the cart protects more human life.

I believe that when all other options are exhausted, one must approximate to the best of their ability which choice is the objectively better. Inaction or action.

Inaction in this matter might be horrible. But it is just that. Inaction. You are not responsible for someone's death if you did not put the events in motion that led to that death. You are not the killer if you do not jump in front of the bullet. On the other hand, one must consider both the moral and possibly the legal ramifications of such an action. You see, intentionally changing the tracks when you have considered the consequences and are absolutely sure that doing so will lead to someone's death (i.e., premeditation upon the action) has a very specific word attached to it. It is known as "Murder."

Of course, there are justifications for knowingly taking action that lead to someone's death, including self-defense and defense of the lives of others. But that is only a defense if the person being killed is the aggressor, not if they are innocent of any wrongdoing.

So here is the REAL question for any "Greater Good" advocate: Would you, in real life, or would your character in the game, after having killed an innocent person or group of innocents for the net "greater good" be willing to turn yourself over the authorities and face your punishment for having killed those people? After having made the relatively easy decision to sacrifice others, will you stand by your principles and make the far more difficult decision to sacrifice yourself?

In this case, slaughtering the family is a net good.

A net good. Wonderful. But it is still the murder of an innocent family of men women and children that has done no wrong to warrant such an end. Perhaps you can justify it from a philosophical standpoint and debates with net goods versus net evil. Try justifying it to a Court of Law and a jury of your peers.

And turning to the personal for a moment: would you accept such justifications if it were your family who was on the tracks or up for being slaughtered for the supposed greater good?

While inaction is an objectively evil act.

Inaction is quite literally not an "act."

It is not good to simply not kill anyone. It is evil to allow people to die when you had an option to save them where net life is saved

And what do you tell the families of those people you murdered? "The deaths of your mother/father/brother/sisters/sons/daughters were necessary in order to prevent more people from dying. I could not have acted in any other way other than to kill those you loved and cherished in order to maintain my moral principles."? I mean, perhaps that is what you/your character would say. Just as long as you are okay with being led to the gallows or into a prison cell for the rest of your life afterwards.

You know, I just thought of a plausible scenario in which killing a single family of innocent people would save many many more families.

Think of a Game of Thrones-style Medieval civil war, in which numerous noble families are fighting over a throne. The countryside is being ravaged by war, and two noble families have legitimate claim to the throne. As long as a single member of the rival royal family lives, supporters will flock to and rally around that family in order to put them on the throne; and the supporters have already risked and sacrificed too much already to come to terms and seek peace now. Further, the noble houses on the losing side of this war will face execution, exile, and dispossession of their lands and titles; they have no choice but to fight on to the bitter end for their own survival.

This war has already raged on for a few years, and has led to tens of thousands of innocent people being killed in raids and ten times that number dead because of starvation and being displaced off their lands. As long as the war rages on, many, many more will die. The only thing that will stop this is if peace and stability is returned to the land. But in order to do that, one of the two royal family's entire bloodline must be wiped out, down to the last crying infant in their crib, so that no one can claim a legitimate right to the throne.

Dot

Quote:

Erastil even could count for a kind of boring, conventional, settled down form of love.

Ah, but that's the richest, deepest, most fruitful kind of love... if you persist at it, and have patience as well as passion.

You mean agape? As in true, lasting, selfless love? Pssshhh. It's all about eros, bro.

The existence of pirates actually brought about major reforms in the Navy.

The Navy was forced to treat its sailors better, stop conscription, pay them decently and so forth, just to stop them from defecting to the pirates who were basically all-volunteer and democratic, with much better pay and treatment.

As for raiding when you have nothing...that's at best neutral, and more likely still a Chaotic act. A Lawful society would probably try to organize trade, or formally go to war (itself a form of population control to manage resources). Raiding is basically thievery with violence, after all.
raiding to survive would be Neutral. Raiding for phat lewt would be chaotic.

==Aelryinth

I would argue that "raiding" is more often an evil act, depending on the circumstances. Historical instances of raiding usually led to destruction of homes, rapine, and slaughter of all those who got in the way, or for simple pleasure. Further, even if no one is killed in the initial raiding, we are still talking about the theft of things that would leads to mass starvation of the raided population.

And I generally do not buy the "we were raiding to survive" argument. Raiding is almost always done to supplement an already well-stocked land with extra plunder. After all, if a group of people can fashion swords to raid, they can fashion plowshares to plow and farm their land. If they can build raiding boats, they can build fishing boats.

If there is one thing that I am growing tired of, it is the idea that Lawful Evil is seen as the "Good kind of evil." Yes, Lawful Evil characters CAN maintain certain behavioral standards and follow codes of conduct that many may consider moral and decent. But you know what? So can Neutral Evil and Chaotic Evil Characters.

For example, can just as easily have a Neutral Evil character who cares deeply about his/her society and will do absolutely anything to protect it, up to and including torture, assassination and outright genocide. They are willing to get their hands bloody and their souls blackened for the greater good.

Likewise, you can have a Chaotic Evil freedom fighter who genuinely wants to free oppressed people from the bondage of their cruel overlords. But how does he do this? By spreading terror through murder, rape, and arson against the cruel overlords, and those near and dear to the cruel overlords.

Characters of any evil alignment can have goals, which on their face may seem positive. What makes these characters evil is the horrible means by which the seek to achieve their positive ends. Evil characters will often seek to justify these actions by saying that they were reasonable and necessary to bring about positive change.

2. The second one isn't really Golarion specific, but more of some good rules to use when building a home. The "Stronghold Builder's Guide" is the only resource I have right now, but frankly... it's not that great. The prices seem *way* too high for a lot of things (a small bathroom is a crappy tub and bucket and it costs hundreds and hundreds of gold). Is there anything else like this resource out there that people can recommend? Maybe for Pathfinder?

I would recommend "Red Dragon Inn: The Guide to Inns and Taverns" by Slugfest Games. It has a lot of resources when it comes to basic furniture and living accommodations.

Here's how I take it. The first set are "Neutral" virtues. The second set are "Good" virtues. Remember, Xin was a Lawful Neutral overlord, not a Lawful Good one. Therefore, the first set are the actual virtues that Xin wanted exemplified in each of his Runelord apprentices for betterment of the self and civilization.

The evil sins represent the betterment of the self at the expense of others.

The neutral virtues represent the betterment of the self in order to establish a better civilization.

The good virtues represent the betterment of the lives of all, and are thus to be considered more heroic.

That was my interpretation, anyway.

Can we expect a few sub-races of Orcs, like the kind that have been seen in the Tome of Horrors?

LazarX wrote:

Do you understand that that was EXACTLY the case for most of Earth's history? In perhaps thirty five thousand years of human existence, many civilizations had innovations that died with them, because the things you take for granted, such as mass education, mass communication, cheap printing, the vectors which enabled technology to take off like a rocket in the 19th and later centuries DID NOT EXIST. About ninety percent of total technological and scientific progress was made in the lifetimes of you and your parents.

Prior to then technology and scientific progress was a mix of fitful isolated starts with frequent reverses... like the Dark Ages, and the burning of the Library of Alexandria, the collapse of civilization on Rapa Nui (Easter Island)

Not really...

First, 35,000 is a long time for humans. We really didn't even start farming until 12,000 years ago. Prior to that there was still potentially other human subspecies running around. Heck, 35,000ya there was still Neandertal man.

The thing is, technological advancement never really stopped. There was no time the world went backwards. Bits of information and certain techniques were lost, but technology as a whole only ever progressed.

Things certainly declined in Europe following the collapse of Rome during the early Middle Ages (aka the Dark Ages) but the scientific and technological advancements just shifted to the Middle East and the rising Arabic empire. When that empire began to decline, the Europeans resumed discovery using the texts translated and preserved by the Arabs and various monks.

The best example of a culture decline would be the fall of various Chinese dynasties, as some were incredibly advanced. But their knowledge was seldom lost, just their ability or desire to use the technology.

@JesterDavid:

In the words of Napoleon Bonaparte "Ability is nothing without opportunity."

Geniuses and potential innovators may indeed pop up in the quasi-Medieval societies of Golarion, but that does not mean that they will have the opportunity to develop their discoveries, or, indeed, discover anything at all. What good is it if you are potentially the most brilliant scientific or mathematical mind of your generation when you are, say, living in the serfdom caste and cannot leave your farm without your lord's permission? What good is it if you may be the greatest musical composer of all time when you have just been forced to join a levy and will be butchered as cannon fodder against the Orcish Hordes of Belkzen?

Going further, technological and scientific invention, innovation and progress is by no means an inevitability, nor is it evenly distributed when it occurs, as Human history certainly demonstrates. For example, Europe achieved incredible scientific and technological advances during the Renaissance and Enlightenment periods and up through the modern age. However, many other countries did not. Imperial China for example most advanced places on earth in terms of its riches, scholastic achievements and technology, especially when compared to medieval Europe. However, it basically stagnated, and was left behind. The farming techniques and systems of governance remained largely the same for millennia. The same goes for Japan under the various Shogunates. These two societies were essentially ossified and remained in a relatively stable state with only minor technological advances, only modernizing with the advent of foreign intrusion.

So with Nidal, I guess you could treat it like Tokugawa Japan: to an outside observer an incredibly insular, isolated society that accepts trade from other countries but has extremely strange, some might even say cruel and barbaric traditions. However, the people of Nidal do not see it as cruel, but the harsh necessities of surviving in a world of monsters, demons, and a gigantic world-destroying God trapped in the center of the world trying to escape and kill everyone and everything in creation.

Unfortunately not; that is the inscription I would give it.

I take it from the Confederate State's motto "Deo Vindice," i.e., "Under God, our Vindicator." I thought it would be appropriate for a militaristic, expansionistic, slave-owning empire.

I'm running Shattered Star at the moment, and I have made a few major changes to the campaign setting in doing so.

I've upped the populations of many of the major cities to make them a tad more realistic basically doubling the population of most of Magnimar and Korvosa.

I have set my campaign after the closure of the World Wound, and now most of Avistan is focused on containing the Hold of Belkzen, which is becoming a losing struggle for two reason: First, unlike Demons, orcs are not affected by Ward Stones. Second, I have essentially made the Hold of Belkzen united under the leadership of Grask Uldeth and the Empty Hand, whose banners fly from every corner of the Hold. He united the tribes through brutal conquest and integration, and properly organized an effective orcish military system à la Shaka Zulu.

As a result, the orcs have spread out from every direction from the Hold of Belkzen, taking large swathes of the largely undefended territory in Varisia, the Realm of the Mammoth Lords, and Ustalav. Only Lastwall has managed to hold Uldeth's hordes back, but only just barely.

It is this invasion that is the impetus driving the players to try and find the pieces to the Sihedron, which they have been led to believe is the key to pushing back the orcs that are pouring over the Storval Plateau. I mainly did this because the AP really lacked any real motivation for the players to risk their lives looking for the Sihedron, other than adventurous curiosity. Plus, I love orcs in the role of the primary antagonists in the Campaign Setting.

I am running the Shattered Star AP and one of my players is playing a goblin rogue much in the same vein as your character.

Normally, I would say Cap of Disguise, but that is not a cost-effective option at lower levels. Instead, I would recommend the Cap of Human Guise from Ultimate Equipment:

This threadbare hat allows its wearer to alter her appearance at will as with a disguise self spell, except she can only appear as a plainly dressed Small human child, adult halfling, or adult gnome, such as a peasant, blacksmith, or shopkeeper. The wearer can slightly alter the cap’s appearance as part of the disguise, but otherwise must match the overall unremarkable look of the illusory form. Though invented and primarily used by Small humanoids, it can be used by any Small or Medium humanoid creature.

And best of all, it only costs 800 gp versus 1,800 gp for the Cap of Disguise.

They hate everything that has a structure or form. They hate your rules and your labels. They're a combination of anarchists, thirteen year olds who hate their parents, and anyone you've ever met who is still living in the past and can't move on with their lives.

Protean are not insane or evil. They're just angry.

Under your rubric, Slaad at least have the excuse of being insane. Proteans do not seem to have any such excuse. They are simply malevolent. I have always conceptualized that Chaotic Neutral ultimately stands for "Do What Thou Wilt." Proteans are not free-willed anarchists; Proteans are apparently going out of their way to impose their views on the universe and destroy everyone else in the process.

I would argue that anyone who ends/destroys the lives of innocent people simply because they are angry is morally indistinguishable from one who ends/destroys the lives of innocent people because they enjoy inflicting pain. Especially if they comprehend what they are doing and understand that they are inflicting pain on others.

For that I would argue that Proteans, as they are currently written, are Chaotic Evil, with a greater emphasis on the Chaos rather than the Evil, as their evil comes from their indifference to suffering, rather than sadism.

A little while ago, I was in a discussion about Chaotic Neutral exemplar outsider races, such as Proteans, Chaos Beasts, and Slaad. My thoughts on these races are simply this: The writers do not appear to know what to do with them.

Slaad and, to a lesser degree, Proteans, are portrayed as races of violently insane psychotics who will rip your arms off, beat you over the head with them, and then transform your quivering remains into prismatic horrors as an afterthought. In essence, they behave just like demons, but Smite Evil does not work on them.

And this seems to be how they are written almost every single time. They are almost invariably violent psychotics. While this is certainly one way to go, and could be one aspect of Chaotic Neutral outsiders, I would imagine that there would be a greater deal of variety with races that are literal representations of entropy.

So I am curious, how do other gamers portray them, or believe they should be portrayed? Or are Chaotic Neutral races being constantly and violently psychotic really the only practicable way to go?

Perhaps Scion is driven to become a new nascent or full-on Demon Lord, and is building an army, but not to take over the world. A single world on the Material Plane is chump change. No. Scion wants to carve out his own section of the Abyss with an army of constructs and cold-iron golems immune to the supernatural powers of the other Demon Lords' armies. He simply needs the planet to be his starting base of operations, a resource hub for his cold iron mines, as well as a golem factory. Perhaps what makes Scion truly dangerous is that he wants to find a way to open up a reverse-Worldwound and invade the Abyss, turning the planet into a ravaged warzone and beachhead for his invasion.

Also, I do not think it would necessarily make sense that there would be a Tiefling "Ghetto" as Tieflings are not a distinct racial AND ethnic group like Elves or Dwarves, but are united solely by their unusual supernatural genetic heritage. The existence of a tiefling Ghetto would be as likely as the formation of an "Albino Ghetto" or something like that.

"Asmodeus Vindice."

I'm not sure if I would want to date any of the iconic gals (they are too stylized for me to find them attractive), but could I get Valeros to be my wingman?

Can we please not call them that? The problem with that name (and any permutation thereof, like "ISIS" or "ISIL") is that it dignifies an atrocity-committing death cult by lending them religious and political legitimacy that they have absolutely no right to. It claims in that name to represent all Muslims in the world - something that the vast majority of Muslims never consented to and obviously have a problem with. The actions of that group would actially make them apostates and heretics according to the Qur'an.

Secondly, they are not a "state". That would mean being a real sovereign nation, and using real troops (lawful combatants) not terrorists, and so forth. They have not been diplomatically recognized by any nation in the world. Rather, they have declared war on the world. They are nothing but murderous, raping, slaving, rampaging thugs with delusions of grandeur. Let's not spread their vile propaganda for them.

Also, there are a lot of women and girls in the world named after the goddess Isis that would rather their name not go the way of "Adolf" and be forever associated with a gang of genocidal barbarians.

A better way to refer to this group is "Daesh" - this is a term derived from the Arabic acronym of what they call themselves, and it roughly translates to "oppressor" or "trod underfoot". Bonus points because this terrorist group hates being called "Daesh" (kinda like how the government of Democratic People's Republic of being obviously none of those things Korea hates being called "North Korea").

Let's not call the bad guys by the ostentatious titles they want, mkay?.

This isn't just a meaningless argument over semantics. The way we speak influences the way we think. And the way we think influences the way we vote. Do you want this festering boil of ultraviolent degenerates to ever be recognized as as a sovereign state like North Korea is? Do you want their representatives enjoying diplomatic immunity riding in a limo to the U.N. building in NYC? You want a Daesh consulate down the street from where you live? Everything they stand for seeks to eradicate the progress of the last several thousand years of human civilization. And so, like the Nazis before them, they need to be fought and eliminated, not appeased for some delusional dream of "peace in our time".

This isn't the typical "let's compare something we don't like to Nazis" cliche - for those of you that know your history, in this case, the analogy fits eerily well. Consider how tired everyone from the outside has become of the long, bloody "foreign wars" fought in that region - and how much disenfranchisement that has caused among the people living there. Then along comes a charismatic demagogue with an extremist ideology of expansion through conquest that rallies these disenfranchised masses by promising them strength and retribution against those that wronged them. This group gathers military momentum, accumulating materiel, claiming victories, and taking ground, and committing unthinkable acts of enslavement and genocide against "undesirable" groups, while the major foreign powers that arguably have the ability to do something about it pussyfoot around the issue and nurse their wounds from the last struggle, not wanting to risk committing themselves to another bleak war.

Sound familiar?

I do not disagree with anything you have said. I referred to the terror group as "Islamic State" because that is what they are currently called by most people, in the same way that the DPRK is more commonly referred to as North Korea. I do not recognize their legitimacy, anymore than I recognize the legitimacy of, say, the Confederate States of America as ever having been a legitimate sovereign entity.

The reason I use them as a point of comparison is because I think that like IS/ISIS/ISIL/Daesh, Razmir behaves in an almost identical manner. Razmir relies on mindless fanatics at the front lines carrying out the bloody business fighting or recruiting for their God, when in reality they are being manipulated by an oligarchy of cynical megalomaniacs willing to sacrifice any number of sincere devotees to maintain their position of power and glory. And like IS/Daesh, Razmir's true power does not lie in his actual physical power, but in a magnificently well-crafted and choreographed propaganda campaign that continues to draw in a steady stream of recruits.

Louis Lyons wrote:

Razmir appears to be a God. An amazing, benevolent, caring god actually interested in helping his followers, but a god nonetheless.

Fixed that for you :P

Razmir has a phenomenal Public Relations committee to be sure.

So how many much of Avistan that has heard of this guys smells b.s. about the whole "living god" thing?

Pathfinder Chronicles Gazetteer, page 50 says:

"Razmir claims to have used the Starstone in Absalom to achieve divinity, but any who have visited the City at the Center of the World know this to be false. The truth is totally suppressed in his realm, with “spreaders of sedition” facing a host of harsh sentences, from exile to execution.

Razmiran’s neighbors view the expansion of its cult into their lands as a plague. The willing defection of several border communities to the banner of the Living God underscores the danger posed by Razmir, pushing his neighbors ever closer to taking up arms against him."

This is because the Starstone Cathedral has 4 bridges - 1 for every successful attempt at apotheosis. Razmir does not have one, because, contrary to his claims, he never passed the test, therefore, he obviously cannot be a god. The real gods of Golarion are objectively provable - they grant their followers spells and domain powers and guidance and a place for their souls to rest in the afterlife. Razmir grants his lackeys nothing more than any other powerful wizard-king (like Nex or Geb) could.

I would contend that very few people would have caught on. Presuming Avistan largely cleaves to the equivalent of Europe's Late Medieval/Renaissance period, this would mean the majority of people rarely travel 20 miles away from the place of their birth. While I am sure most people of Avistan have heard of the Holy City of Absalom and the Ascension of the newer Gods, the vast majority of Avistan natives would not have traveled there unless they were nobles, diplomats, merchants/traders, pilgrims, or sailors working for the first four groups. I doubt the majority of people in Avistan have the time or disposable income to pack up and leave their home for months (or even years) to go to Absalom to determine the veracity of Razmir's claims.

The clergy and intelligentsia of various countries may be able to dispute Razmir's claims to divinity, but as for the other 99% of people who are ignorant of the Test of Starstone? Razmir appears to be a God. A frightening, tyrannical, controlling god more interested in worldly affairs than most, but a god nonetheless.

As for how Razmir is viewed by the rest of the world, I would say he, his country and his followers are all viewed more like North Korea, or the Islamic State, rather than Scientology, i.e., an extremely dangerous, insular, enigmatic force with sinister motives. Even if most of the surrounding countries and their leaderships doubt Razmir's divinity, they still do not know what he is. What is known is that Razmir is extremely powerful, ruthless, and is willing to spread his putative faith across the face of Golarion through coercion and violence. And his faith and following is growing by the day, because like the Islamic State or North Korea, they have a great propaganda and recruitment campaign that works upon the ignorant and unwary.

I am in support of Paizo publishing "The Maelstrom Unleashed," or something along similar lines, if only to clarify the nature of Proteans and the realm in which they abide.

Here is the problem I find with Proteans, Slaads, and most other Chaotic Neutral Outsiders that have been written over the years: Few authors know how to write them without making them come off as Chaotic Evil. Proteans, like Slaads, come off as violently insane. At best, they are indifferent towards others, and at worst they are extremely vicious and delight in the ruination of others. Why can't there ever be a Protean/Slaad who shows some measure of kindness or decency, if only for a moment? How about a Protean who was chasing after the party trying to rip out their lungs then jumps in front of a villain's axiomatic arrow fired at the party's bard? And as the party gathers around the dying Protean and ask why it sacrificed itself on their behalf, it smiles and answers "It seemed like a good idea at the time."

But no. Violent psychotics, the lot of them. It seems that Proteans are simply cruel, capricious outsiders who are just as destructive as any demon, if just slightly less sadistic. As far as I am concerned, the only real difference between Proteans and Demons is that Paladins' Smite Evil ability and Holy Weapons have no effect on them.

I think the impact of magic would definitely alter laws in some unusual ways, especially when Raise Dead (and related spells), Reincarnate and actual Undeath become issues.

Each country may have different ways of dealing with them too - a country where undead hold rulership positions is going to have a different take on Undead Property Rights than, say, a country that isn't keen on undead running around.

I also think Golarion, as a whole, is probably more gender neutral when it comes to inheritance and estates - rather than the first born son inheriting an estate, it may be more the norm of "first born" (period). Using Earth as an analog (and it's historically patriarchal bent in the last couple of thousand years in certain cultures - and yes, I know, that's an over simplification) isn't really a good fit for Golarion and it's gods.

Also - just a kudos to Voin and Louis, especially that link to the Statute of Winchester - it was worth the read, thanks!

You are quite welcome, Dracovar. It was my pleasure.

I personally prefer the one city = 64 pages approach. The 'boxed set, four books of total 300 pages, six foldout maps, every house detailed down to how many giants rats are in the basement' way leaves way to little wiggle room for the DM and tends to cost a million in terms of overseas shipping.

I find Magnimar and Kaer Maga books perfectly fine in terms of scope. Cities of Golarion is too brief for my tastes, while Ptolus/City of Brass is just way too overwhelming.

As much as I would love the 300 pager big city book, if we could press the Paizo publishing staff to do more 64-page books on cities of interest, I would honestly be more than satisfied. We are overdue.

I'll take up two issues, specifically Property Law and Weapons Laws.

First, if any law is developed at all I would say the most important would be how property ownership is decided and how it is divided and passed from one set of hands to another. In Avistan, just as in Medieval Europe, wealth appears to tied to the ownership of land and that which can be taken from it, either by farming, lumber, mining, etc. Though property laws can vary and be very simple or very Byzantine, one thing that is necessary to prevent internal division and outright civil war is the clear marking of boundaries between one person's land and another's. In most cases, property ownership may ultimately rest with a sovereign, such as a King/Queen/Emperor/Grand Duke, etc. who owns all the land in a realm, but allows nobles to care for it, and pass down their ownership (or caretaker) rights to their descendants. If the Noble who has title to the land betrays the sovereigns trust, ownership rights can be legally stripped by the sovereign and transferred to other more worthy nobles. This would probably be the case in Cheliax, Taldor and Brevoy. Other times, the sovereign entity may not be a Monarch, but the state itself such as in Andoran or Galt.

With regard to the issue of weapons laws, and whether or not someone would be allowed to wear armor and carry around swords, bows, axes, I would say it depends entirely on the region. However, even though Golarion (or Avistan to be precise) is a something of a pale reflection of Medieval/Renaissance Europe, keep in mind that Golarion is a world wherein trolls, bugbears, dragons, and orcs exist and prey upon people.

It would make little sense (even in the more authoritarian countries) to limit people's access to arms in order to allow them to defend themselves, unless that authoritarian government invests a huge amount of money and resources garrisoning every city, town and village with soldiers loyal to the government to keep them safe. Keep in mind having large standing armies is hugely expensive, and is a relatively modern invention with only a few notable exceptions in history (such as the Roman Republic and Empire). Further, many powerful nations may depend on calling up levies (the Medieval/Renaissance equivalent of an involuntary draft) to fill up the ranks of their armies when war appears imminent, with the nobility serving as officers.

This is my long, roundabout way of saying that I believe that most nations in Golarion would be very liberal compared to Earth concerning the ownership of arms. In fact, depending on the region, ownership of arms may very well be mandatory, either for the common defense, or to be kept in case subjects/citizens are called up for war. One of the more famous examples of such a Medieval mandatory arms ownership law is England's Statute of Winchester of 1285, which commanded all freemen between the ages of 15 and 60 to purchase and keep arms and armor, with specifications of what they were to buy based on their level of wealth. At the very least, I would imagine any community of significant size would have a militia that are the de facto if not de jure police/military force and that would train with weapons regularly to respond to raiders, bandits and wandering monsters.

Hey guys,

I wanted to pick the brains of the community who have played/run Serpent's Skull. One of the most interesting features of the game is, of course, the lost city of Saventh-Yhi. However, the books surrounding this magnificent location are a tad threadbare as to the contents of the dungeons below the city ruins (at least from what I have read thus far). My player group is generally very exploration-hungry, and would probably expect massive dungeons existing below the ruins, and perhaps even find the sacred tomb of Savith herself.

With this in mind, I was wondering if anyone had suggestions as to a good Mega-Dungeon that could be woven into the campaign and would work well with the whole "Lost City" vibe of Saventh-Yhi?

Pregnancy has little effect on the functioning of spellcasters. We tend to place a lot of value on protecting pregnant people, it's a racial compulsion. Drow are probably not immune to it, and the fact a pregnant spellcaster can still Meteor Swarm you means they are not helpless.

While there are no rules in the canon regarding the effects of pregnancy on elves or any other race (not to my knowledge anyway), those of us who have had pregnant women in our lives can tell you that pregnancy generally can and does have a pretty major impact on women. If elven biology is anything remotely similar to humans or other terrestrial mammals, with dramatic hormonal shifts, pregnancy can end up being a major hindrance. Sure, the Drow Matriarch can cast Meteor Swarm, but what happens when she suddenly suffers from the nauseated condition brought on by Elven Morning Sickness? I suppose that they could have a loyal/dominated midwife cleric casting Remove Sickness on them at all hours. But that is probably a luxury that most drow could not afford.

Kadasbrass Loreweaver wrote:

I always like the section of DMG II from DnD 3.5 that detailed Saltmarsh. It might not have been hundreds of pages long but it did a good job of detailing a city with several shadowy elements for you to make a campaign around.

YAY!

As the one who wrote that section, it's always cool to see folks remember it! I quite love how it turned out, and wish more folks knew about it. :-)

Then I would ask that you push for another project like it. Both Paizo and Pathfinder should be around for years to come; certainly long enough to plan, promote and publish a successful hardcover city guide. If the statements on this thread are any indication, it should certainly be a best-seller if done right.

Thinking about it some more, Earth has had Chaotic Evil societies that have persisted for decades without experiencing catastrophic population loss, and when somebody does invade them, they tend to regret it even if they technically succeeded and can't admit that the invasion was a bad decision. They tend to have warlords without demon lords, but despite differences in technical detail, the basic idea is similar to Drow society. The slow maturation rate of Drow just means that they have to do the whole failed state thing in slow motion, or have a larger than average disparity between the base and tip of the age pyramid.

I realize that it may be somewhat controversial, but just out of curiosity, what would be your examples of Earthly Chaotic Evil societies?

Drow worship Lamashtu as well as the other demon lords, right?

For all we know, that crazy demon goddess has blessed them with fertility...

That might be a reasonable explanation. We do not know anything about the Drow birthrate one way or the other. If Drow women give birth to, say, quintuplets every couple of years, at least the problem of replenishing their numbers is somewhat solved if there is always a gargantuan new generation of Drow on the edge of maturity at any given time. Taking into account their century-long maturation rate, for every adult Drow, I imagine that there would have to be dozens if not hundreds of Drow children and adolescents at varying levels of maturity. If this were the case, Drow daycares must be the biggest overcrowded hellholes on Golarion. Overpopulation and overcrowding might even lend some context to their constant infighting and backstabbing.

Zhangar wrote:

Yeah, the drow should be chaotic evil, not chaotic stupid. Being too psychotic to even engage in basic trade takes them into chaotic stupid territory.

So I assume that generally, the drow aren't that psychotic.

Or if they actually are, it's a recent development that's going to cause a population crash.

I could probably buy it if the drow's current stupidity is just a recent thing. Chaotic Evil "almighty empires" in general strike me as rather implausible—instability is inherently problematic—but we let Andoran get away with it, so why not?

The drow's current decadence would definitely make sense as a plateauing point, though: The height from which they'll inevitably fall.

I think a Chaotic Evil Empire is a possibility: It would simply require an immensely powerful unifying figure at its center who rules with fear and brutality. Of course, one can expect it to crumble the second the unifying figure is gone. One of the better and realistic examples of this is the Hold of Belkzen. The Orcs of Golarion did have an empire at one time under the warlord Belkzen, whose rule was absolute. But the moment he died/disappeared, everything descended into fractious tribalism and infighting.

Orfamay Quest wrote:

Spook205 wrote:

DnD Drow were expressly indicated by Salvatore (who's responsible for most of the houses of drow, thing) to not be a functional culture. They rely on Lolth coming in and basically acting like a lifestyle commissar to keep things operational (do not kill those children today, we need them! Yes I told you to kill all the kids you came across, that was then, this is now!)

That goes a long way towards the explanation of why a society that is so rigidly structured was still CE. The entire society existed a the ever changing, unpredictable whims of a deific despot. Dungeons and Dragons drow basically live in magical North Korea, albeit with better economy.

Pathfinder drow have this sort of ridiculously malicious thing designed around making them seem horrible.

And yet the drow's demoniacal patrons are still capable of providing them with all the support they need, for their own twisted amusements. Whether you call that patron Lolth, Abraxas, Mazmezz, or Snugglebunniefoofoo is rather beside the point.

Yeah but in DnD, the drow were basically Lolth's belongings. Society followed the theocratic aims of Lolth. There was one cook stirring that pot.

Put in a bunch of different houses worshipping different CE demons and all of a sudden that ability to administrate and control the cat's nest would seem to logically start having trouble.

If your house worships multiple demonic patrons, it just gets odder. Mazmezz might demand you have a moratorium on male child murder for a year, meanwhile Baphomet might be demanding it. And the demon lord of fire ants might be demanding the house next to yours go on a random 'arson for fun' spree.

I agree with these thoughts whole-heartedly, and I totally forgot to bring it up in the original discussion. Thanks for reminding me, Spook205.

It would be one thing if the Drow were united in the worship of a single Demonic patron; Nocticula would probably make the most sense, if only because she is one of the least outwardly destructive and matches a lot of the classical characteristics of the Drow. But on Golarion, the Drow basically worship ALL of the demon lords without any notable exception, when these Lords of the Abyss are all constantly warring, plotting against and back-stabbing one another. It makes little to no sense and would almost certainly lead to horrific sectarianism the likes of which the surface world has rarely seen as clerics of the various demon lords engage in proxy battles in order to maintain the powers granted by their cruel patrons.

And that is to say nothing of the fact that a lot of the Demon Lords look at their worshippers as a source of food or bloody amusement.This really only compounds the already-existing problems the Drow have.

Remember at this point Kaer Maga has gotten a lot of pages:

** spoiler omitted **

If you're looking for a more in depth than this, have you read all of the information? Are you looking for this all in one spot? If so, I suggest that you head over to The wiki. If you see official information that isn't there on the city; The project is open, add it. Then you'll have all of the information in one place like you ask for.

I'd say wikis and working from a patchwork of various adventures can only go so far. What makes huge city book compendiums such a pleasure to read is that they are (usually) well written by professional RPG authors who are intimately familiar with the setting; they contain a wealth of locations and interesting NPCs that tie into one another; they have detailed maps that allow the GM to more easily plan appropriate and interesting role-playing encounters depending on which part of the city they are located in; and often they have a fantastic amount of plot hooks for campaign ideas. Best of all, everything is compiled together by the authors, so a GM need look no further than the book.

roysier wrote:

Personally I'd love to see that book done for Kaer Maga, which is a really unique city with all the ruins below it.

Might need an update, but...

While City of Strangers is certainly a fantastic book that inspires the imagination, I think the OP was asking that Paizo publish a book a few hundred pages in length detailing a city with locations, characters and plot hooks in minute detail, along with a possible Mega Dungeons. Something along the lines of City State of the Invincible Overlord, Rapan Athuk, or The Slumbering Tsar Saga. Personally, I'd be happy with something the length and detail of the Zobeck Gazetteer.

As many have commented, Kaer Maga seems tailor-made for both a detailed city overview along with a mega dungeon. I always loved the very City-of-Sigil feel of Kaer Maga, and it would be great if they would flesh it out even more.