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Party paranoia wise, this works best when you have a listing of all the skill ratings of important 'behind the screen' rolls you'll have to make and just roll without telling them what skill check you're using.

Or ask "Hey what's your perception rating?" and then roll, even though you don't have anything you're really needing it for. So even if they freak out at 'take 10' you can still go, "Nothing of note" cause there wasn't anything in the first place.

For sense motive and lying, I tried to remember that just because someone doesn't want to talk to you, doesn't mean they have to lie to you. "I don't want to tell you, go fark yourself" can be a legitimate response.

Or people lying without knowing they're lying.

Or omitting things.

I'm not sure if this is an advice one or a rules one, kind of both. I was wondering if anyone has gone with the idea of making a dice of sneak attack on a rogue swappable (permanently) for say a precise attack damage bonus ala Swashbuckler, so for example

At level 9 a rogue usually has a 5d6 sneak attack, if swapped, they'd gain an 'at level' flat bonus. So 9. Now yes, on average that's a lot lower roll than the 5d6 would give, and at level 20, 20 out of 10d6 is also kind of a low roll, if they've got deadly sneak that's generally a minimum 'roll' of 30, but the added benefit of this swap would be like a swashbuckler, where they don't need to jump through the usual hoops to 'use' sneak attack, so they don't need to flank or catch something without their Dex bonus.

So in a sense, in both a straight up fight and a 'sneaky' one, the swapped Rogue does consistent damage, while the regular/unchained rogue does less dmg potentially in a straight fight, and potentially more in a sneaky one.


Should this swap also mean that this rogue is ineligible for talents that boost Sneak attack (since this isn't 'sneak attack') so you don't have every attack doing Strength damage too, etc. And if you disallow those talents for this swapped precision attack, what would be an appropriate buff to balance it, or is a straight swap even with denied talents still balanced?

This tends to come back to an out of game issue more than an in-game one.

So this comes out as a player and 'the group of players' issue and not so much a character issue. It can be a combo of things but largely is the interaction of 1)how a GM runs alignment and associated behavior at his table 2)how the rest of the players mesh.

You can't really do much about it in a pickup game with non-regulars, but if its regulars, and someone is intentionally making/playing a char knowing it would not mix well with the group, that's not really a fault of the 'game mechanics'.

Now, every player everywhere is going to want to play their character as they want to play their character, but the societal/community issue of playing a game is the overall mesh. A LG stick in the mud can be just as disruptive to a group as the guy that plays chaotic-douchebag-backstabber.

Now I don't know all the details, did the GM explain themselves well about what their game was going to be like and how they handle alignment/etc? some do, some don't some you know because of long gaming experience with them. Overall tho, I'd say its more likely the outlier will get kicked if they don't conform. And that as a whole, its 'more appropriate' to have the majority rule, especially if its got GM support, than to let 1 player dictate how the game will be experienced by everyone else.

Its going to be about choices. Do you want to continue to have conflict with players and put your individuality ahead of the enjoyment of the group? Are you able to bend and modify your concept a bit so you can have fun like everyone else? Sticking to your principles is fine, and if there are no other gaming opportunities around you may feel that a 'bad game experience' is better than 'no gaming opportunities' but isn't the whole point of gaming with a group of (presumably friends) people to have an enjoyable experience?

Variation on mass combat rules? With PC's having 'reduced' stats in a sense that they're probably not trying to kill everyone outright and being OP and settling the bar brawl in one round with 'efficient' ability/etc use defeats the purpose of the brawl? :)

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Simeon wrote:
Zon-Kuthon suffers in rapturous wonderful agony. He does not sleep.

Soooo internet gaming? :) Spends his days purposefully getting called names by 12 year olds and basking in the suffering?

Alignment of characters is always something that can be worked out. Alignment of players, and their douchiness rating, unfortunately that's a huge issue all its own.

If your GM isn't willing to step in and preserve the enjoyment of the group as a whole, you could ask yourself, "Is it worth staying for the conclusion of this, or should I just come back later."

I'm also envisioning that unlike the real world, which has enough of a unity of nations (such as it is) that it supports things like Passports, individual nations probably just make up their own rules when non citizens cross their borders....

and its probably easier (barring Detect Lie) to pretend you're actually a native of the region, assuming you've got a decent enough Knowledge (local stuff) rating...

Plus, how do you really monitor 'borders' when you've got things that can fly or teleport or the like :)

I really like the various setting books that tell us about the nations of Golarion/etc. What I was wondering was how their borders play out.

In 'real life' security is potentially strict around borders, but I'm imagining in the golarion setting, despite an even higher threat level, it's even harder to maintain a permanent 'guarded' border.

Do you consider borders to be a bit more fluid than the map boundaries we have, with settlements and areas with strict patrolling being more firm, but otherwise its "as far as either side thinks they can get away with".

Do you guys play with border patrols or checkpoints, with checkpoints at 'natural' choke points around border areas.

Passage between nations? As adventurers its pretty common to go wherever whenever, and have the power to back it up, but could someone from Varisia freely wander down through Nidal then into Cheliax, or require some travel papers/passport/etc.

In that light, when you've got a Higher level (or mythic, or both) PC party which is like...a mini-Justice League in terms of power in comparison to most of the 'regular world' do even higher tier nations like Cheliax decide to not push it too much when the 6 dudes of the f-ing apocalypse decide they want to trek to Andoran or something?

I've sort of wondered what people think the Pathfinder gods do in their godly routine.

Supernatural (TV) had the big G decide to hang around earth pretending to be one of his own prophets while indulging in human experience.

Marvel Movie Setting has the Gods of Asgard basically acting like higher level adventurers, but they generally weren't seen as 'worshipped'. More like mythic level chars doing mundane to heroic things.

So for our Pathfinder setting, what do people think someone like Sarenrae does when she 'wakes up for the morning?' I imagine Caiden is something like Volstagg, chasing skirts, drinking, fighting, drinking, getting into trouble from the skirts he chases, etc.

A god of smiths is probably doing a Tony Stark thing. But for others, is someone like Iomedae fighting demons and devils and stuff all the time?

When their faithful pray to them for spells and stuff, do they just have that on 'autoresponse' and only really get involved when someone uses divine messaging service via higher level spell to directly speak with them?

I imagine what it'd be like if the Gods of a particular plane have to 'go to work in the office' every day....

Carrion Crown, as I guess can be expected with the undead theme, is full of haunts.

Now, experience varies, some like them as is, some do not. I do seem to recall that for like...the last 2 episodes of this series, it seems like every other room in the 'big bad' or 'almost the big bad' plot places is going to be a haunt. Which can mean alot of 'surprise! another haunt' encounters and potentially (depending on your players) grumbling about having to deal with the persistent annoyance when the thing might come back..

For the last book, the Tyrant Whisper Haunt (renchurch) stuff can be especially annoying if you're not taking into consider the recommendation noted above its description. Add to it that its a 'forever haunt' that can't be feasibly broken by a player group (at least not in this adventure path, unless maybe you'd added mythic or somesuch)

I always found it likely that in most cases, slavery isn't quite the view that we had of slavery ala pre-Civil War USA. Though that form exists. I'd say the most common, especially in 'good cities' is similar to the stuff we see nowadays, human trafficking that results in essentially sex slavery, worker slavery, etc.

Just as there are reasons why in modern society slavery in this form continues, so it 'makes sense' in the odd world of Golarion. Its not pleasant, and generally its not a topic that my previous groups would dwell on, and I wouldn't be inclined to either. My real life is social work, and that can touch on some of the horrible things humans can do to other humans, so in a fantasy setting I'm not going to be inclined to be involved in rp/topics that mirror my real life professional responsibilities, etc. Better to slay evil dragons and fight true evil demons and devils, than look too much at the dickish things even golarion societies do to its own.

As for alignment, eh, after 30+ years I've seen many variations of systems, official and homebrew. I've yet to find one that accurately describes 'the human condition'. Mechanically, I can see the use in a system that needs you to be able to differentiate between things (bonuses, penalties, special abilities, etc). But you could get by with a comic-book-hero style of 'alignment' if you wanted to.

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Long term I hope the product has the success that allows for an expansion into the other continent areas of the setting. Arcadia, some more stuff of Tian Xia, etc

As this was the most recent precise strike thread, and it answered one part of the question I was looking into, I figured I'd add the second part.

Is a swashbuckler able to use precise strike on a rogue with uncanny/improved uncanny dodge, or a level 11 or greater Swashbuckler with Evasive deed up?

Precise strike seems (to me) to have the trade off of: "Less damage than a sneak attack, but doesn't require the same lead-up of 'denied dex bonus' is that an accurate understanding?

And while immunity to crits, or immunity to sneak attack (ala ooze) etc, can come from the 'construction' of the target, something like uncanny dodge is irrelevant because it doesn't make you immune to sneak attack, it makes you immune to some of the conditions that can let you be sneak attacked?

Its a bit too late in this regard, but whenever I'd play in a game, especially if I was thinking Paladin (or in this case LG), I'd have a discussion with the GM beforehand to see what their view was, and whether mine was compatible with it. If not, I'd just go with something else. Because in a sense or practical reality, we can give you examples of what we think is appropriate LG behavior, or even support the OP's position, but if their GM disagrees, it becomes kind of moot.

Some GMs don't care, some really do. When I'd Gm I was pretty flexible, if you were good and did an act that would make an evil guy snark about how good you were, its still ok. If you were good and the evil guy was now awe inspired by your evil act, yeah, not so good.

Mark Carlson 255 wrote:
Claxon wrote:
We have a Gentleman's Agreement, don't abuse resting (no 15 minute adventuring day) and you wont be attacked while resting and killed (assuming you take some appropriate precautions like rope trip, tiny hut, etc).

I like this and I might have to have it printed up and have the players sign a copy before each campaign.


Yeah, its a good rule of thumb for tables. "Look guys, don't abuse the system, and I won't abuse the system." :)

If you don't want to run the hassle of figuring out extra loot for the extra CR you put on encounters to balance, you can just add bigger stashes at certain points to balance it out. Then you can pretty much have the creatures drop the same listed loot, just have more of them in the fight, and then throw some extra stuff maybe 3 or 4 times in the adventure to have more loot than listed. Or do a singular bigger cache.

Unless your group is super-accountant focused and will get bent out of shape because "Excuse me, this encounter should have had X-more things", it'll be fine :)

In general, I like (as others do) to look at action economy stuff. 6 level 14s are going to have a lot of actions. Unless I'm looking wrong, the Paladin is already high enough that it'll negate regeneration of the ichor as long as it smacks it every round...

Looking at the bodyguard,I see some stuff buffing his otherwise piddly WILL save..but only vs mind affecting, otherwise it'll be its weakspot. Is there a particular reason his AC needs to be that high? Could it be brought down and still be hard to hit but then using that to round him out a bit more in other areas? What kind of +hit is this group running?

As a foe I'd probably be inclined if I had the spell, to throw a Slow spell on him, making him staggered for 14-ish rounds, as a level 14 caster would have a decent chance vs his will save.

The Mummy's Mask adventure path had something similar where due to all the government sanctioned grave robbing, the market was flooded with artifacts (historical, not artifact-artifacts) and stuff so the resale price was a lot less than it would have been. So you could do a thing where do to reasons, the market isn't giving as much cash or value for the goods.

As with seems to be quite normal for a rob the graves adventure, there are always people wanting to rob the robbers :) Robbery can occur as traditional, or via merchant robbery through pricing and stuff :P

These things are rough, since its apparent the GM is going 'easy' on you for narrative purposes to allow you to build up later to take the npc down, as if a character that much more powerful than would realistically also be that dense to allow you a way to get around them in the end....

that said...what are your options, are there other PCs in your game, how do they mesh with you LE selfish "i'll probably, definitely, kill you all and f%&* all you over to meet my needs" aspect?

Btw..I'm not hating on the char, playing evil can be fun, if you're ALL evil, that's its own sort of fun game too, if this is one of those, "my game experience will be at the expense of all your game experience" that's another issue for another thread.

Heh side note, given the world you described, if I was playing a GM in this world, I'd probably have something along the lines of "Uh yeah, sorry, dear old mom signed away your soul to the big A before you were born, and the Big A has been humoring you the whole time since he gets you anyway in the end" for narrative synergy :)

Which if you kinda think about it, seems kinda silly. Since its a ranged touch, other than for 'looking cool' there's no real reason for that acid arrow to arrow :)

Just wondering about the mythic hierophant path abilities of Impeccable Intuition.

Is the 'concealed information' aspect of the three: Concealed info, secret info, concealed emotion, considered 'lying/deception' as associated with bluff, allowing a mythic with this chosen aspect of the ability basically immune to non-mythic lying?

I don't know what is was specifically, but I never liked the Red Mantis stuff. So I had them finally piss off enough people that a coalition on mortal and divine sides group up to crush the little backstabbers and its god.

I see a larger picture being the variable too.

Is this a game where time matters? Is the progression of story such that every day that passes means the badguys get further along their goals. Not all adventures go this route, some are more free form, but others "You have 20 days to get this done or the world ends".

If time is important, then each rest takes off 1 day of stuff. Could the party have pressed on and pressured their foes? Did instead this give the foes time to do other things like fortify or otherwise move towards their goals, etc?

Generally most mortal PC races by themselves lack alignment types for purposes of damage resistance. They gain them usually via classes, Monk for example, or Paladin "aura means all my attacks are Good aligned" etc.

As noted, while races have alignments, most don't have it to the overwhelming power enough that it becomes its own 'factor'.

I dunno, this kind of falls into the whole "Hey, howabout I make an unlimited use healing item!" type of thing were mechanically it looks possible, but really in practice ends up (and should end up) being way more expensive if not nigh impossible on "artifact scale" difficulty.

There isn't really a clean way I see of differentiating between the utility of a particular spell of the same level. Or the consideration of "While Spell A is only useful in combat, unless you WANT to cast destruction for some reason in non-combat situations, Spell B is useful in both combat and non-combat and by sheer distribution of time, you're more likely to face 95% non-combat time in a day than combat time. So a same level spell that is useful ALL of the time, versus one that's only useful part of the time, etc etc

I can see why it shouldn't just from the perspective of..."so what, you keep casting some level 0 cantrip that does shock damage (piddly like 1d3, yeah there isn't a core one but it seems logical that if you can make acid, fire and cold with cantrips, you can do zappy too) and then the Shambling mound gains several hundred CON in the time it would take it to lose 1 point of CON?

Game balance wise I'd say its probably intended more as the 6d6/8d6 that happens to do all types of weapon dmg (pointy, sharpie and bashie) 'at once' in terms of defeating DR of those types. Meaning something like a Skeleton with DR/Blunt/bash still takes 'normal/full' dmg from getting hit with a mortar shell.

As opposed to 3 separate damage rolls of 6d6/8d6.

Bearing in mind also that tech in pathfinder setting tends not to be at the same level as we might expect 'reality' to be. Yes their explosives do less damage in a sense than we imagine modern reality, and we've seen their pew pew science weapons also do ridiculously poor damage too. laser pistols with 1d6 dmg for example.

Adding a sub question to this, would solid fog stop things like siege weapons and giant thrown things? Or things that could penetrate solid objects? Like...I dunno, a railgun or something that could potentially punch through a 2 inch thick iron door?

..what would a sneak attack with a whip look like? You get the guy to swallow the whip?

ericthecleric wrote:
The character could stick a stone of alarm in your coat pocket and activate the item... Or if the party is resting in a room, he could stick it on the back of the door.

I don't think the stone would work that way for your coat, unless someone tried to steal your jacket. I could see the door-thing potentially working, but you'd need to get the windows/etc too. And then a foe that bypasses the door (phasing/etc) would ignore all the stones.

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Heh, if this had happened with a GM I used to have, my party would be asking ourselves:

Did WE really steal IT? Or did IT end up with US on PURPOSE.

So in this scenario, the Paladin could end up with a "Surprise, now you're a Nazi like us!" outcome?

Watch out for polar bears!

That's sort of a potential flaw of lower level gaming, you have fragile chars without resources to buffer those weaknesses. Its why you can caution players about getting too much of a backstory setup for their level 1 char, because they might die in the first combat :P

and honestly, as GM you can always fudge stuff. If the goal is a story experience and you don't really mind that the PCs are kinda protected, its all good. Rather than the time it'll take to generate a new char, much less figure out why it would be involved in the same campaign.

I figure they use metaphors and nicknames. "The power of <Our> lord shall grant me the strength to strike down the deeds of your Pretender" Depending on the rivalry/hate smacktalk will vary.

They may not always f&** up the other guy's church, but I can see it happening. Unlike today, burning down somebody's church can result in some mundane (as in not supernatural) consequences, but f~*#ing over Asmodeus' church could get you a visitation.

Generally I think churchs are fine with their people getting nuked, since they're all chesspieces. But be mindful about f+$%ing up some godling's house :)

If the die can't stop rolling, it might be time to replace it :)


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Its more cinematic for them to flee in a teleport, than, "Curses, foiled again!" and hoof it.

Hm, if we were going by rules, I'd say its closer to "they did really well on Str related checks for the individual instance, rather than the overall strength rating of <X>"

So the tech guide does a nice job of giving us ratings for weaponry intended for personal use. Does anyone have a good rule of thumb if taking those weapons and 'upgrading' them to larger versions intended for say Siege/Naval Combat?

I figure in most cases, especially if you combine them with 'targeting systems' could could keep the ranged touch quality and bonuses on refire rate. Even 'slow' rated tech cannons (say an upgraded Rail Gun) would be able to fire faster than a conventional siege weapon.

If we wanna use the rail gun specifically: 3d10 dmg, B and P, range 200, capacity 10, slow fire, ranged touch, weighs 14 lbs.

Big siege weapons do 6d6-9d6 or so so, with range increments of 100-400. Lets assume imperfect upgrade ratings, and say a desire to hide the tech nature of the gun so there's alot of 'wasted' weight.

Would something 5d10, B and P, Range 300 (400?) be fair? Considering it may keep its armor piercing quality and ranged touch ability.

In terms of visuals, I'm thinking of what a flying fortress ala Helicarrier from Winter solider would be like if converted to pathfinder setting and made to look not as 'techy'.

I'd be ok with that doing 3 attacks in one round, tho with your BAB and apparent level, it'd be potentially a huge waste of mythic power and not an automatic hit on those 3 attacks.

so in the above example with 4 hits and 1 miss, with one crit. How do strength bonuses and the like come into play? Applied once, 4x? Is the damage considered '1 dice of attack' so all bonuses apply once (strength, enhancement, bane/whatever).

I think a comparison item would be our various belts of physical awesome. We can see the individual cost of one stat in a belt, and see that 2 belts of one stat are cheaper than 1 belt of both stats at same bonus.

Yeah, again, I'm not worried about it. Its not like its a secret 10000 gp "I win" button. It lets you do something potentially well in certain situations, sure you can alphastrikenuke a boss, but ...was that _really_ the boss? Many ways to keep this in game, let the player feel they didn't waste money, but also make the game not a total cakewalk because of the enchantment.

To clarify, I did not, and do not, intend to equate trans/gay with '' in rp. I'm just saying that its essentially entirely up to the player what they want to run. My personal preference is to not rp any of my characters with sexual behavior/relations. I'm not a prude, its just not my interest in RP as a character. It doesn't mean my _character_ is a prude or asexual or whatever. As character history, how much happens is essentially entirely up to the player.

My chars usually aren't involved in romance angles either. If your trans char was in our murderhobo game, we wouldn't care about that aspect. We'd care about how well you go along with the rest of our murderhobo group. In terms of "How well do you smash the walking bags of loot and xp we all run into"....and whether you're a ninjaloot chaotic-douchebag alignment pretending to be a team player. Similarly, if you were in our murderhobo game it might not be a good fit if you ARE looking for character development involving backstory stuff, not because its anti-trans, more because its 'we have backstory?" So your experiences will vary greatly on what group you're with

As per your OP, again its entirely up to the player and GM use of stuff. You may want to do stuff as a player and the GM couldn't care less, or they can't be bothered. The GM may want to do stuff, and you as a player couldn't care less or be bothered.

Mechanically, Sure. As a GM in this hypothetical situation, if I see this becoming too much of an issue, bear in mind the idea that "If the PCs do it, so can the NPCs"

Otherwise I don't see anything wrong with it.

Yeah, our monetary system represents 'promise' as opposed to true value of the coins/metal.

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Gee I dunno maybe use that orifice in the middle of your face and express your views? Or do you expect the GM to use telepathy to figure out your "ive got sand in my underwear" issue? :P

I agree that its a matter of actual use, otherwise its just characterization on page. If we go by history of actual play, one might describe my characters as 'not sexually interested' even tho their character histories might include a healthy view on it. Why? Because I'm not interested in RP'ing sex stuff in my games, and in most cases it never comes up (hur hur). Its like your usual fantasy movie stuff. You don't usually play with things like "hey, remember all those other bodily functions we don't use in games? Lets use those!" but assume they occur between the scenes or whatever.

It's kinda like those huge character histories (bonus the char dies in the first encounter..seen that happen, hasn't everyone?) which can be useful for informing the player on how the char might see things/interact, but largely have no purpose unless the GM starts picking hooks from it.

...melting point of iron, 1500ish celsius, or 1800ish Kelvin. Melting point of rock (ala red dragon) generally around 1200 celsius, granite melts at 1200-1260 C?

Heat of Sun (Core): 15ish MILLION celsius.

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