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Darius Finch

LoreKeeper's page

Goblin Squad Member. RPG Superstar 2013 Dedicated Voter, 2014 Star Voter. Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber. Pathfinder Society Member. 4,007 posts (8,800 including aliases). 3 reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 3 Pathfinder Society characters. 22 aliases.


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Monk's are pretty good with maneuvers, both core and unchained, since both perform maneuvers using full BAB. The added advantage is that monks get many attempts - and often just one success is sufficient to effectively beat an opponent.

Disarm, for example, is not always applicable - but when it applies it has tremendous impact on an encounter. Disarm wizard's staff, or the BBEG's uberweapon - and they are left with vastly reduced potency. Many humanoid encounters don't even have a mundane backup weapon leaving them to fight with unarmed attacks (that they do not have training in). Puny.

Likewise trip, and sunder. Together with disarm these can be applied to all attacks, allowing a core level 8 monk 5 attempts (with ki) in a round. The monk's bonus to these is fairly good, and he only needs to get lucky once to effectively "win" the encounter. The law of numbers means that victory is on the monk's side.


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I just realized something else that has been nagging me in the back of my head about the unchained monk that I didn't know to articulate. Until now.

Have a look at these original class features:


  • Still mind
  • Abundant step
  • Diamond body
  • Quivering palm
  • Empty body
  • Tongue of the sun and moon

And here some of the new ones:


  • Elemental fury
  • Insightful wisdom
  • Ki metabolism
  • Water sprint
  • Furious defense
  • Cobra breath
  • Wind jump

Do you see what I see? The original names are beautiful. They evoke a sense of mysticism and eastern eloquence.

The new names?
Elemental fury... there's no sense of harmony, or mastery. This is the kind of thing a non-lawful barbarian would have.
Insightful wisdom... technically correct, but also uninspired. Bland.
Ki metabolism... "ki metabolism" gives you a good hint on what the ability might do. It also is clinical and (as a name) non-thematic.
Water sprint... you cannot get any more literal in a name, in complete contrast to the subtlety of the original names.
Furious defense... because that is what wise men do, they channel their inner rage and burst it forth in a flurry of defensiveness.
Cobra breath... now this is a genuinely good name, for a ninja trick.
Wind jump... yes, that is the kind of thing the master will tell his pupil: "Today, grasshopper, you will learn the mysteries of the... wiiiind juuuumpp."

To be fair, there are some okay names: flawless mind, and one touch. Where flawless mind is acceptable but not outstanding. And one touch is a great name - but also a traditionally famous name; so not something for which Paizo can claim originality or creative credit.


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@xiao:

I really like that you pointed out Ki Craft positively. I was a little worried how it would be received as it opens up strange possibilities. To help out the feat and monks who take it: note that all the magic items in Unfettered Monk only require Craft Wondrous Item and that the creator is a monk - meaning Ki Craft can be used for those items without extra effort (getting the crafting spell cast somehow).

You also mentioned the feat Style Shift, to alleviate the feat-intensive nature of Style Shift note that it combos really well with Improved Formless Stance.


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Kirth Gersen wrote:
LoreKeeper wrote:

the vast majority of class abilities are rolled into insights (similar to rage powers and rogue talents).

That's much the direction I took with the "Kirthfinder" monk as well. Great minds!

You know it!

I've just had a good look at the Kirthfinder monk, there are some other parallels where we have different design details but similar overall intentions. For example, the Kirthfinder monk's flurry is a full-BAB but the iterative attacks never have a penalty of greater than -5. In contrast, the Unfettered Monk retained 3/4-BAB even when flurrying, but none of the attacks take a penalty and they have a faster progression.

For example, at 12th level:

Kirthfinder monk: +12/+7/+7
Unfettered monk: +9/+9/+9/+9

The unfettered monk doesn't use ki spells like the Kirthfinder monk (though some insights duplicate spell powers), however the list of insights is truly massive well in excess of 100 insights and some of them expose rather exotic powers.

Partial text from "Overwhelming Spirit" insight wrote:
Overwhelming spirit (Ex)*: shaken enemies within 10 ft of a monk with this insight remain shaken even if the duration of the shaken condition has expired. At 8th level and every 4 levels thereafter the range increases by 5 ft up to a maximum of 30 ft at 20th level.

Edit: I noticed another overlap between Kirthfinder and Unfettered: Kirthfinder provides some class-specific favored class bonuses for the monk. The Unfettered Monk does something similar, but has a whole section dedicated to it, exposing just shy of 30 alternate favored class bonuses.


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Malwing wrote:
Just did a long one. Spheres of Power. Its five stars and a tough contender for best product ever.

Similar to Oliver, I've been convinced and will pick up Spheres of Power for myself


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John Lynch 106 wrote:
LoreKeeper wrote:
I did look into it. The problem is that channeling is only acquired at level 7, and general feats under VMC only at level 9 and 13 after that. So you'd have to wait until level 13 to get Guided Hand (which allows you to attack with Wisdom).
Retrain level 1/human feat?

!!

I didn't consider it like that. Then maybe it's possible. You still have to be faithful to the plan to at least level 7 to come fully "online". But I'm patient that way.


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PlagueCrafter wrote:
I've searched around the thread and haven't found a great answer to this: Can I use the Unchained Monk to be an absolute Grapple monstrosity?

I've not run all the numbers, but something that definitely helps is that the Unchained monk has full-BAB, so his CMD is higher - makes it that much harder to escape his grapples.


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With a poor will save, the Unchained Monk loses somewhat on one of his classic selling points: making casters shake (a little) in their slippers.

On a related note: keeping diamond soul as a constant effect but allowing spells denoted as "harmless" to bypass the spell resistance would have made everybody forget about the will save issue.


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Mark Seifter wrote:
Shisumo wrote:
plaidwandering wrote:
no more immunities either.
Unchained monk is still immune to disease, just like before.
Indeed. The only immunity it lost was poison, for a flexible ki power. And as I mentioned upthread (and posters generally agreed), back with the regular monk, people usually traded diamond body for a qinggong power anyway.

I'm with Lemmy on this one; unless I have a really really good reason to trade-out diamond body (archetype or a very specific character build) there is no way I'll give up diamond body. Poison immunity is great.


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I don't think you need to apologize, you're doing "us" a service. Take your time. Make it shine!


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Hi GarnathFrostmantle

I'm Henri Hakl, the primary author and designer. Though I drew upon various sources (the only name you might recognize is Jerall Toi).

The monk is reinvented mechanically, specifically the flurry mechanic is completely reworked and the vast majority of class abilities are rolled into insights (similar to rage powers and rogue talents). Whether you design your character to be more mystical monk or more pure martial artist is up to you: there is a large set of insights that cover a wide range of martial concepts and monk tropes. I don't have a hard number for you but there are well over 100 insights.

Page breakdown:

The entirety of the PDF is 38 pages:

  • Title page, introduction, credits and copyright account for 4 pages
  • The monk reinvention (new rules for the monk) is over 13 pages
  • Favored class bonuses, feats, and magic items are 4 pages
  • 8 sample monks (at levels 1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, 19) spread over 9 pages
  • 5 pages of additional discussions (interaction with archetypes, balance, intentions)
  • 3 pages with a handy reference tree of insights that shows what insights are required, and what insights are unlocked by all insights

I hope that helps, if you have more specific questions don't be afraid to ask.

Dedicated Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

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HAH! Got the better of you this year Paizo! I in fact did not prepare a submission in advance so I'm perfectly poised and primed for this twist!


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Obviaaaaaas


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I think they (being the developers) realized that the feat needed some hands-on attention to specify/clarify the interaction with various feats and effects. Currently it is probably in discussion with the developers, but the extent may be so far as to require re-wording the (Pummeling) feat. If the feat wording changes, then the feat will only resurface in its new form when the ACG goes into its second printing; and will possibly become PFS legal again then.

So (by my guess) the feat is currently in review with the Paizo team to be either FAQ'd into balance or reworded into balance. If it will be FAQ'd then we can expect to hear about it in the next 2 to 12 weeks; otherwise the next edition of the ACG may be 1 or 2 years off.

In the interim it is just prudent to remove it from PFS play.

For my money: Pummeling Style should get addressed, specifically special riders should only apply on the first attack roll/damage roll. But it is more important to also fix the master of many styles. The style follow-up feats should only be prerequisite-free from level 6 onwards (though basic style feats would be available without prerequisites from the start). To compensate for this grant an additional style feat at levels 4 and 8 (only basic style feat, not follow-ups). This also ensures a master of *many* styles, not a master of *one-style-completed-by-level-3*.


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chbgraphicarts wrote:
LoreKeeper wrote:

...

However, it does look like the SF deals marginally more damage than the Warpriest, though not nearly as much as people are making it out to be. It seems to be that the Warpriest may trade that small amount of damage for a more-versatile build.

Keep in mind that the Sacred Weapon ability of the Warpriest to add an enhancement bonus to his weapons only is available for 12 rounds. That really isn't that much. It is generally present in clutch situations (assuming frugal use of the ability), but you cannot consider it the "standard" damage output for the warpriest.

Going from +12 (2d6+7) to +9 (2d6+4) is a fairly huge drop; it represents roughly a 35% drop in average damage.

...

There is another subtlety that is no accounted for: the warpriest build given is shown using his Sacred Weapon ability, meaning a +3 enhancement bonus to attack and damage is already included. The sacred fist on the other hand does not have an enhancement bonus to strikes yet, meaning there is more growth potential for damage on the sacred fist than on the warpriest.


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Serisan wrote:
Fearspect wrote:


Novack: I don't see why an Exploiter Wizard couldn't get the Extra Arcanist Exploit feat. Could you explain that?

I can jump on that one. Extra Arcanist's Exploit requires the Arcanist's Exploit class feature as a prerequisite. Exploiters get Exploiter's Exploit instead.

Quite honestly, that's about the only thing that keeps the Exploiter from being flat-out perfect.

Paizo has stated previously that "duck typing" generally applies to their published material (if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it is a duck). For example the sensei (monk archetype) "advice" ability and evangelist (cleric archetype) "sermonic performance" both allow you to qualify for Extra Performance and Lingering Performance feats even though only "sermonic performance" spells out that it interacts with feats.

I see no reason why this wouldn't apply to Exploiter's Exploit too.


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Mark Seifter wrote:
LoreKeeper wrote:

I'd like to point out that full-BAB on the monk unleashed is nice and all, but *I* don't feel particularly strongly for it. Instead I'd like to see a big (big, BIG) list of monk talents to take every even level, akin to rogue talents and rage powers.

Who said you can't have both full BAB and customized talents?

Oh certainly, why not? What I'm trying to say is that I think that monk talents are more important than full BAB. Full BAB is just something relevant to martials in general, but monk talents could be something that define the monk class in general (and characters in specific).

Pretty much every Player Companion that gets published now has a smattering of new rogue talents, special bardic masterpieces, alchemical insights, and so forth. But only once in a long while something for monks crops up (off-hand I can only think of meditation feats; and those are really for everybody - the monk merely has a slightly easier time accessing them). As a monk player I'm pretty much always jealous of (most) other classes when I read through a Player Companion.

Monk talents, are essentially what the qinggong archetype tries to retro-fit onto the existing monk chassis. Given the constraints it manages quite well - but written into the class from the ground up it would be far more relevant.


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Depending on how the Pummeling Style works out (can it be used with (all) weapons?) here's something neat:

The inspired strike deed of the Swashbuckler (inspired blade archetype), in conjunction with Pummeling Style. Upgrade one of your hits to a crit - then have Pummeling Style count all your hits as a crit.


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Honestly this "sexist" thing is nonsense in this case (in my opinion). Except to imply that it is sexist that guys don't also have the opportunity to enter the contest.

What I believe is the problem here, is that the author of the article thinks this is all about having the most attractive girls have a shot at buying the new phone. (Which would be sexy-ist thing, not a sexist thing.) But it isn't really about the sexy-girl-gets-the-phone: yes an attractive girl has better odds all other things being equal - but really, this is an opportunity to skew odds in your favor in a myriad of ways. The photo can be clever, funny, the location can be exotic, or weird, or dangerous, the logo design can be creative, original, artistic, or done with plants, there's any number of ways in which a positive and healthy representation can be made.

Instead of seeing opportunity there are complaints.

Anybody that thinks they will develop self-esteem issues because they didn't get votes on a contest to be eligible to get a phone... well... perhaps re-evaluating their priorities in life may be a step forward. But it's all part of the system! The patriarchy! It's all just one more example! Well, rubbish. The patriarchy is defeated in all ways that matter; mopping up the extras is just a matter of time as the old guard dies out. What is left, what is the root of problems for everybody, is an egotistical kleingeist. A self-centered, self-serving me-me-me society. Everything should be easy. Everything should be free.

Guys. Girls. Get over yourselves. We should serve to make the world a better place. Not to make the world a better place for us.


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See Lefty X, martials don't really have a problem dealing damage. That isn't where they take second place to casters.


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heh. hehehe. bahahahahahaa!


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Just a moment's food for thought: all and any re-imagining of the rogue class (and classes in general) should try to not solve all the problems of the class. Building a level of weakness into the class (and perhaps compensating for it elsewhere in the class) helps to diversify the class.


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I think a lot of this discussion is hogwash. "Hypersexualized" is a term that should be used to actual hypersexualized content. Attractive presentation is not hypersexualized presentation, no matter how much you want to point out all the girl images cleavage and model-like proportions. Hyperbole does not make the argument more sound (and xeose4 makes appropriate commentary and apology to that effect earlier in the thread).

There's 2 important distinctions in perceptions here that should be highlighted:


  • Fan service for males: the impression the discussion here gives is that every single female image is serving the (straight) male libido. The root of this premise is that the female images have breasts (a primary female sexual characteristic and thus unavoidable) and show skin. The fallacy here is that those 2 qualities make for sexy females. The truth: they do not. The vast(!) majority of female images are attractive, but also the vast majority of female images aren't sexy. And often the actually sexy images do not show skin or cleavage.

  • Fan service for females: the impression is that there's rarely much of interest for girl gamers (or for that matter gay guy gamers). On actual enquiry about specific examples of what are otherwise attractive male images: eyes are wrong, smile is wrong, wields an unattractive weapon, is described as unfriendly, doesn't follow acceptable deity, is evil-aligned, wouldn't want a long-term relationship, has a missing tooth, is sickly, is too old, is more-like-a-father, is part of the underground, is poor/unclean, etc. The truth: the majority of male images is attractive.

The bottom line here is that for females there is a large disparity of what constitutes attractive for the individual girl. Sample discussion from existing art has different girl gamers highlight entirely different samples and aren't interested in the other images. Tastes differ after all. But 90% of female image samples are "sexy" because they "got boobs". Well: 90% of female images are "not sexy" to me.

Is the base assumption here that "sexy" for guys is an image for a female that they'd have an imaginary one-night-stand with; while "sexy" for females is an image for a guy that they'd have as an imaginary husband?

...

Since the discussion started on Wrath of the Righteous, I decided to page through The Midnight Isles and give my sexy rating of the character art:

Potential WoR spoiler:

Ash giant thug (male, not sexy)
Mutasafen (male, sexy)
Yaniel (female, "handsome", not sexy; perhaps sexy to a lesbian)
Ursathella (female, average, sexy? to taste)
Nezirrius (n/a)
Gelderfang (male, ruggedly handsome, sexy? to taste)
Vellexia (female, sexy)
Nocticula (portrait only)
Kestoglyr Mantiel (male, not sexy)
Fulsome queen (female, not sexy)
Melaxmera (n/a)
Abyssal harvester (n/a)
Half-fiend mythic minotaur (male, sexy? to taste)
Galfrey (female, not sexy; gender invariant art)
Hepzamirah (female, sexy? to taste)
Minagho (female, sexy)
Shamira (female, sexy? to taste)
Cambion (male, sexy)
Nocticalu (female, sexy)

Note Vellexia as an example of a sexy female without the need to show breasts or excessive skin. I've given a couple of females that I'd personally classify as unsexy (Ursathella, Hepzamirah, Shamira) the benefit of the doubt and made them sexy "to taste".

Male sexy count: 2
Male sexy to taste count: 2
Male unsexy: 2

Female sexy count: 3
Female sexy to taste count: 3
Female unsexy: 3

In my opinion: a bit of an edge in favor of the male gamer, but adequate presentation for both genders. Given the male-dominated clientele, this is acceptable.

...now I grant that any number of female gamers won't classify the males that >I< classified as "sexy" as sexy themselves. But that doesn't change the fact that they're presented visually as sexualized as any of the sexualized female images.

Just because you don't like chocolate raisins doesn't mean its not a sweet.

...

Finally: xeose4 also points out that for him (though not for the discussion in general in this thread) the emphasis is on equal opportunity of game content. This is an argument that I can get behind to a certain extent; but by and large Paizo has handled sexuality reasonably well.

When designing an AP, the authors (by necessity) take certain baselines into consideration and work from there. The party consists of 4 PCs with a spread of 1 front-line, 1 divine, 1 arcane and 1 misc. The party is not min-maxed. Players "buy in" to the story and don't actively derail it. And as a quiet assumption: the players are male. The story is presented to (in general) appeal to the male.

What is the common thread to go from designed AP to reality? The GM. The GM needs to handle that his/her 7 players are all paladins. The GM has to engineer a return-to-plot after 2 PCs decide to petition the queen in Kyonin instead of saving the Worldwound. The GM also has to re-imagine a female love interest into a male love interest for his/her female gamer. On the whole going from a female love interest to a male love interest is - on average across all campaigns - less work than to design the love interest as male in the first place and converting to female as needed. Of course, that doesn't mean that all romantic options should be designed as female upfront. And here Paizo can perhaps improve the odds a bit for female gamers.

In my opinion, a bit of a shoot-your-own foot is happening here sometimes: as often a suitable position in the AP for a male romantic option is taken by a female, not to have a female romantic option available - but to have a powerful female in a position of prominence or authority. I.e. sometimes fighting gender inequity on a professional level can create gender inequity on a social/romantic level.


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I've got a couple of disrelated issues with regards to the topic, I'll go through them separately:

1. I like the discussion (and expect its fruit to show in upcoming Paizo products). But I would like to point out something that bugs me with SRS assertions:

SRS, opening post wrote:
Male beauty and female beauty are not really on the same continuum. Masculine women are not the most beautiful possibility of masculinity, at least if you're a gay male like I am.

I can appreciate that sentiment, but I find that pretty much all examples of beautiful men linked by SRS later on can be described as feminine looking guys; certainly all the ones labelled as "cute". Naturally it is possible to split hairs on this, but is that really far from the truth? For the art team it would be a lottery system to find an appropriately cute looking guy that has the right amount of gruff and the right amount of fluff.

(By the way: what is wrong with Nethys, visually speaking, in this regard? From the description and visualization I kept thinking he would be a shoo-in. Or is he okay visually but the sporadic madness is a problem?)

2. I think the spread for male eye-candy can - and should - be improved. There is definitely a lack of guys that look nice, while at the same time appearing desirable enough for the sack, or reliable enough to be marriage material. Or at least not averse to going out to dinner with.

3. But, I would like to point out that the abundance of sexualized female imagery is not really all that. Don't misunderstand - there is lots of it. But there is only a (very) small handful that actually hits the "sexy" strike zone. The kind that makes me nudge a buddy and go "dude! check this out!". (Almost invariably those reactions are reserved for awesome action scenes in Paizo products, for me.)


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My GM initially had me take a -4 penalty on attacks when using weapons as improvised weapons on the grounds that the archetype doesn't explicitly grant Catch Off Guard (which would negate the -4 penalty for improvised weapons). We consulted the Paizo staff on it (probably somewhere in Ask James Jacobs Anything), and they stated that Catch Off Guard and Throw Anything are implicitly granted to the monk of the empty hand - there is after all no point to an archetype that takes -4 penalty to fighting all the time. The inference here is that Catch Off Guard applies to improvised fighting with weapons.

I think you need to reconsider "improvised weapons" not being weapons. You are insistent that it is a definition thing, but then you're not looking at the complete list of definitions. Everything can be an improvised weapon.


  • The manufacture of an object to be used for the purpose of hitting someone makes that object a weapon.
  • The non-standard use of an object to hit someone makes that object an improvised weapon.

These are not mutually exclusive; they can readily overlap.

You base your reading of the rules text: "Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat—commonly bottles, chair legs, stray femurs, and that sort of thing". From just that it is reasonable to come to the conclusion that you have. On the other hand, I claim that the list of examples is incomplete; it could readily include "haft of an axe" without becoming inconsistent - however it would change your reading of the rules significantly.

Consider a bowstring. It certainly is designed to be a weapon (not an improvised weapon). In a bind somebody could use it as a garotte. But doing so is nowhere even close to the realm of intended use of the string; it's an improvised use.


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I believe blackbloodtroll specifically is suggesting the minimalist club, or baseball bat, i.e. he's saying that Weapon Versatility (baseball bat) is essentially meaningless. In contrast, a longsword can already be used as an improvised weapon to deal piercing or bludgeoning damage - without a feat (albeit with appropriate penalties unless you have Catch Off Guard).

Weapon Versatility (longsword)'s only advantage, then, is that you can wield it as a hammer without taking a -4 penalty. However, you could do that more generally with any weapon using Catch Off Guard (and without a prerequisite feat).

Essentially this would reduce Weapon Versatility to a trap feat. Not entirely without purpose; but the purpose can be met cheaper and easier with a different feat that happens to also apply more generally than the specific weapon allowed by Weapon Versatility.

However, a baseball bat cannot (reasonably) be used as an improvised slashing weapon. Even with Catch Off Guard (by the simple observation that the necessary cutting edge does not exist). Now, if you allow the literal RAW of Weapon Versatility, then suddenly the feat becomes meaningful in its own right: an improvised baseball bat cannot be used to slash - but a Weapon Versatility (baseball bat) can both slash and pierce. The investment is fair, the payout adequate (if a bit meek). You could say that Weapon Versatility is the cutting edge on the baseball bat.


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I agree with blackbloodtroll's argument that this is a very specific net result of a small feat chain. The benefit of the feat matters relatively rarely. Very few classes/builds outside a fighter can even justify spending a feat for this effect. So... mechanically I think the feat is balanced - if a little weak - and on those grounds I feel it is acceptable to allow the RAW to apply under all circumstances.

As a GM I'd have to go a little out of my way to describe it and make it "work" in the story telling; but that is okay too.

Garamont's eyes steel themselves as the lumbering hulk of the giant zombie cast an ominous shadow that slowly reach for him. With a shout that was half frustration and half determination he charges at the undead abomination to close the gap, heedless of the swipe of the massive broken-boned fist. The attack fails, not even ruffling Garamont's plumage. Cayden himself must be watching over the brave - if fool-hardy display - still Garamont persevers, his grip on the bowling ball changes ever so slightly; the heavy ball almost feels like it melds with him, becomes an extension to his will. His attack is literally over in a flash, impossibly fast, the frightened orphans will later talk of a pale blueish streak that follows the path of the bowling ball - the wave cuts through the huge zombie: old muscles and tendons split. For a few seconds the massive zombie stands still, then topples and thunders to the ground. Lifeless one more time. Garamont gasps, the bowling ball still outstretched. A thin wisp of smoke rises from it.


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Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

Without a feat or special ability that says otherwise (there are some which let you do it in limited ways), you can't use a weapon as an improvised weapon.

Quote:
Improvised Weapons: Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use...

The hilt, pommel, crossguard, etc of a weapon are all objects not designed to be a weapon (in many cases at least). They can be used as improvised weapons by that rule statement.

Quote:
Even if the rules allowed you to use, say, a longsword as an improvised weapon, then the most similar weapon to a longsword...is a longsword! So you would use those stats.

No. Using a longsword as an improvised warhammer (reverse grip) would mean the most similar weapon would be a warhammer or light hammer. It would only be similar to a longsword if you used the slicing end to do damage.

...

Weapon Versatility (Combat) is another way to solve the same problem. It has the advantage that it keeps the damage dice of your weapon (2d6 greatsword-cum-hammer!). But the disadvantage of being keyed to specific weapons, and costing a feat.

Using them as improvised weapons instead does not require a feat and can be done with all weapons, but takes a significant attack penalty and typically smaller damage dice. There are several feats that can remove the penalty and improve the damage dice though.


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As an improvised weapon. Unless you have some feat or ability in improvised weapons, you take -4 to attack. Additionally a light weapon will not deal more than 1d4 damage; a one-handed and a two-handed weapon not more than 1d6. Only crit on a natural 20, and only a x2 multiplier.

(Catch Off Guard feat will let you wield melee improvised weapons without penalty. Monk of the Empty Hand will also let you wield improvised weapons without penalty. Improvised Weapon Mastery increases the damage dice and crit threat range.)


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This. Is. AWESOME!


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Sothis... can we get a bigger more wallpaper-y version of that? It looks so good, but its so small.


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Tangent101 wrote:
More importantly, does this mean Disney is going to release a desert-themed animated movie (that isn't Aladdin) in the next year or two? I mean, we had Frozen follow RoW...

I think this post deserves more credit ^_^


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That is one useful guide. I like the extensive suggested archetype list - it brings to mind some things read but forgotten.


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Personally I'm perfectly okay with little gunslinger support. There are suitable systems/settings for gun totting hot shots. I'm happy that in Golarion it is limited to a minimum.


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Okay. We're in February now. 2 months to Inner Sea Combat. Isn't it time that a little more light is shone on here? I vote YES!


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All that said. I would also like to voice the opinion that Crane Wing is not the problem: Master of Many Styles is.


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Soooo... is there a possibility that we'll see a slight adjustment on either Crane Wing or Crane Riposte? Something as simple as:

"You receive a +4 dodge bonus to AC against that attack; if the attack misses, it is considered deflected."

That would be enough to make Crane Riposte relevant as a follow-up feat.


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Look, it's not that it is a PFS problem specifically; it is that the PFS feedback is the most reliable and consistent feedback of its nature that the developers have - and it covers a large sample space. The feedback from several hundred thousand scenarios is nothing to be sneezed at. If a balance issue is brought to light in such a statistically mature sample space, then it is right for developers to adjust the game appropriately.

Crane Wing was very good, now it is only good. But it is still good. It is not a crappy feat to take. Crane Riposte was very good, now it is only above average. The Crane Style feat chain as a whole is still a very viable choice for characters. Just because it went from very good to good doesn't break the game.

Dedicated Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

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Guys! Guys! Is it too late to submit?


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Perhaps Martial Maneuvers should be half-level + Con? That would make sense to me. Knockout might then also use Con as its stat.


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Sean K Reynolds wrote:
LoreKeeper wrote:
Also disciplines that are "any combat feat, may be taken multiple times".

What do we gain by doing it your way instead of the current way? Nothing. And with the current way, other classes can grab appropriate feats if they fit their classes. For example, a brawler/rogue could take Sap Adept, which is a combat feat (which brawlers get extras of) which modifies sneak attack (which a brawler doesn't get, but a brawler/rogue would). You're basically saying, "rogues don't get bonus combat feats, so why should we have combat feats which modify sneak attack?" ... which ignores that there are zillions of ways that (1) any particular rogue might get a combat feat, and (2) that there is a benefit to labeling a feat as a combat feat, even if doing so doesn't help the class that feat is written for.

In other words, not arguing for a class mechanic that actually reduces the number of available options for characters.

What I am actually proposing is that the brawler can take all the combat feats that she could've taken previously. Then she also has unique brawler-specific choices.

As to what is gained:

  • greater diversity as more options are available to the brawler (both combat feats and "special" disciplines)
  • a natural vehicle to present class specific options to the brawler (as opposed to feats), consider the number of rage powers available and how such a big list is implausible to offer as feats. Additionally it is a natural vehicle to offer supernatural/magical upgrades to the class (e.g. Elemental Rage rage power)
  • rule locality, it is very easy to find rage power and rogue talents (etc) for their respective classes - they are all listed with their class; class-specific feats however aren't always as obvious to find

Brawler disciplines are not actually "new". It is a new name, but for a familiar class feature (rage powers, rogue talents, ninja tricks, oracle revelations, slayer talents, alchemist discoveries, magus arcana, arcanist exploit, investigator talent).

Dedicated Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

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I'm sad to see the lack of archetype round. It is above and beyond my favorite of the rounds. :(


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@RJGrady:

If the brawler hits reliably (which isn't impossible, especially in a party that might feature a bard and somebody to flank with) then picking up the "Hammer the Gap" feat will also work to overcome DR. Perhaps not as much as Vital Strike in one hit, but over 4+ consecutive hits the bonuses add up.

The party aspect in the discussion is somewhat underplayed up to now - a brawler benefits a lot from buffs, generally more so than other classes. A single-weapon fighter might only get +1/+1 to 2 attacks at level 8; but the brawler would get +1/+1 to 4 attacks.

A lot of theoretical discussion focuses on CR-equal opponents (such as a CR 10 to fight a level 10 hero). The CR system is balanced around a party of 4; so instead an appropriate 1v1 fight for a level 10 PC is a CR 7 to 8 monster.


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Sean K Reynolds recommends I post this in the main brawler discussion thread. Please be gentle, but consider the ideas:

I am a big proponent of class diversity and flexibility; that is why I strongly support class designs that make use of abilities such as rogue talents, rage powers, arcane exploits, and so forth. I really think that the brawler would benefit from this as well, and along those lines consider the changes to the class suggested below.

Brawler

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A brawler is proficient with all simple weapons as well as all weapons in the close weapons group. She is proficient with light armor, but not with shields.
Martial Maneuvers (Ex): At 1st level, a brawler can spend a swift action to gain the benefit of a feat she doesn't possess for 1 minute. The feat must be a combat feat or a non-combat feat that the brawler could acquire through her brawler skills class ability. The brawler must otherwise meet all the feat’s prerequisites. She may use this ability a number of times per day equal to her brawler level. If this ability is triggered before the duration expires, the brawler loses the previous combat feat and gains a new one in its place. If a feat has a daily use limitation (such as Stunning Fist), any uses of that feat while using this ability count toward that feat’s daily limit.
At 6th level, a brawler can use this ability to gain the benefit of two feats at the same time. She may select one feat as a swift action or two feats as a move action. At 10th level, a brawler can use this ability to gain the benefit of three combat feats at the same time. She may select one feat as a swift action, two feats as a move action, or three feats as a standard action. At 12th level, a brawler can use this ability to gain the benefit of one feat as an immediate action.
When acquiring feats after the first using this ability, the brawler may add and remove a number of feats based on the activation action; for example, if she uses a move action to gain feats, she may remove up to two feats from the feats gained through martial maneuvers, and gain up to two feats. She may not have more feats than her maximum number of feats gained through martial maneuvers, and all feats must meet prerequisites (although feats gained through martial maneuvers may count as prerequisites for other feats gained through martial maneuvers). Each feat selected counts toward her daily uses of this ability.
Whenever this ability is activated, the duration on any feat gained through martial maneuvers is reset - in other words it isn't necessary to track the acquisition round of each feat separately.
Unarmed Strike: unchanged
Brawler Skills: detailed below
Maneuver Training: unchanged
Brawler's Flurry: unchanged
Brawler Strike (Su): unchanged
Awesome Blow (Ex): unchanged, after change by developers

Below are the details to the Brawler Skills class ability, this is intended as a sample of abilities available - a great number of additional options should be available for the complete class in the ACG.

Brawler Skills: Starting at 2nd level, a brawler gains one brawler skill. She gains an additional brawler skill for every 2 levels of brawler attained after 2nd level. Except where indicated, a brawler cannot select an individual skill more than once. Brawling skills marked with an asterisk cannot be used in rounds where the brawler makes use of her brawler's flurry class ability.

Acrobatic master: A brawler with this skill gains the Skill Focus (acrobatics) feat and may always Take 10 on acrobatic checks.

Brawling dodger: A brawler with this skill gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC and CMD when she wears light armor, or +2 when she wear no armor. This bonus increases by +1 for every 5 levels of brawler she possesses. A brawler may pick this skill a second time, doing so increases the bonus by +1 for every 3 levels instead of every 5 levels. A brawler must be at least 6th level before picking this skill a second time.

Brutal: A brawler with this skill adds +2 to the DC of any ability gained through brawler skills (such as knockout and stun specialist).

Combat training: A brawler may chose a combat feat instead of a brawling skill, she must meet the prerequisites of that combat feat. A brawler may pick this skill any number of times. When chosing combat training, a brawler may change any feats gained previously with combat training; she must still meet all the prerequisites of feats chosen.

Enduring maneuvers: Feats gained through martial maneuvers last for 10 minutes. A brawler may pick this skill a second time, if she does so, then feats gained through martial maneuvers last for 1 hour.

Extra maneuver feat: A brawler with this skill increases the total number of feats that she may gain from martial maneuvers by 1 (thus at second level she could have up to 2 feats, at sixth level up to 3 feats, and at 10th level up to 4 feats).

Extra maneuvers: A brawler with this skill may use martial maneuvers a number of times per day equal to twice her class level.

Fast: A brawler with this skill gains a +10 bonus to her speed. A brawler may pick this skill once for every 4 brawler levels she possesses.

Finesse brawler: A brawler with this skill gains the Weapon Finesse feat.

Grappling specialist: A brawler with this skill deals an additional +1d6 damage when using grapples to inflict damage.

Great fortitude: A brawler with this skill gains the Great Fortitude feat.

Knockout (Su): A brawler with this skill can unleash a devastating attack that can instantly knock a target unconscious. She must announce this intent before making her attack roll. If the brawler strikes successfully and the target takes damage from the blow, the target must succeed at a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 the brawler’s level + the higher of the brawler’s Strength or Dexterity modifier) or fall unconscious for 1d6 rounds. A brawler may use this ability once a day for at level 16, and once more for every two levels above level 16. Creatures immune to critical hits or nonlethal damage are immune to this ability. A brawler must be level 16 before selecting this brawler skill.

Painful punches (Ex): A brawler with this skill may add +5 to the damage she deals with unarmed strikes, instead of bonus damage gained from Strength or Dexterity. A brawler must be at least 4th level before selecting this skill.

Professional: A brawler with this skill considers her brawler level as her fighter level + 2 for the purpose of qualifying for combat feats.

Stun specialist: A brawler with this skill gains the Stunning Fist feat. She considers her brawler level as her monk level for the purpose of determining how many times a day she can use the Stunning Fist feat. She need not meet the prerequisites of the feat, but she must be a 4th level brawler to select this brawler skill.

Style savant: A brawler with this skill may chose a single style feat, or feat that has a style feat as a prerequisite, without meeting that feats requirements.

Tough brawler: A brawler with this skill gains the Toughness feat, additionally she gains +1 natural armor bonus to AC.

Note that the changes to Martial Maneuvers make it very easy to determine what feats can be acquired: any combat feat, and any other feat that is available through the Brawler Skills class ability. Correspondingly, given the examples above, the brawler could get Great Fortitude, Skill Focus (acrobatics) and Toughness, in addition to all combat feats.


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I am a big proponent of class diversity and flexibility; that is why I strongly support class designs that make use of abilities such as rogue talents, rage powers, arcane exploits, and so forth. I really think that the brawler would benefit from this as well, and along those lines consider the changes to the class suggested below.

Brawler

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A brawler is proficient with all simple weapons as well as all weapons in the close weapons group. She is proficient with light armor, but not with shields.
Martial Maneuvers (Ex): At 1st level, a brawler can spend a swift action to gain the benefit of a feat she doesn't possess for 1 minute. The feat must be a combat feat or a non-combat feat that the brawler could acquire through her brawler skills class ability. The brawler must otherwise meet all the feat’s prerequisites. She may use this ability a number of times per day equal to her brawler level. If this ability is triggered before the duration expires, the brawler loses the previous combat feat and gains a new one in its place. If a feat has a daily use limitation (such as Stunning Fist), any uses of that feat while using this ability count toward that feat’s daily limit.
At 6th level, a brawler can use this ability to gain the benefit of two feats at the same time. She may select one feat as a swift action or two feats as a move action. At 10th level, a brawler can use this ability to gain the benefit of three combat feats at the same time. She may select one feat as a swift action, two feats as a move action, or three feats as a standard action. At 12th level, a brawler can use this ability to gain the benefit of one feat as an immediate action.
When acquiring feats after the first using this ability, the brawler may add and remove a number of feats based on the activation action; for example, if she uses a move action to gain feats, she may remove up to two feats from the feats gained through martial maneuvers, and gain up to two feats. She may not have more feats than her maximum number of feats gained through martial maneuvers, and all feats must meet prerequisites (although feats gained through martial maneuvers may count as prerequisites for other feats gained through martial maneuvers). Each feat selected counts toward her daily uses of this ability.
Whenever this ability is activated, the duration on any feat gained through martial maneuvers is reset - in other words it isn't necessary to track the acquisition round of each feat separately.
Unarmed Strike: unchanged
Brawler Skills: detailed below
Maneuver Training: unchanged
Brawler's Flurry: unchanged
Brawler Strike (Su): unchanged
Awesome Blow (Ex): unchanged, after change by developers

Below are the details to the Brawler Skills class ability, this is intended as a sample of abilities available - a great number of additional options should be available for the complete class in the ACG.

Brawler Skills: Starting at 2nd level, a brawler gains one brawler skill. She gains an additional brawler skill for every 2 levels of brawler attained after 2nd level. Except where indicated, a brawler cannot select an individual skill more than once. Brawling skills marked with an asterisk cannot be used in rounds where the brawler makes use of her brawler's flurry class ability.

Acrobatic master: A brawler with this skill gains the Skill Focus (acrobatics) feat and may always Take 10 on acrobatic checks.

Brawling dodger: A brawler with this skill gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC and CMD when she wears light armor, or +2 when she wear no armor. This bonus increases by +1 for every 5 levels of brawler she possesses. A brawler may pick this skill a second time, doing so increases the bonus by +1 for every 3 levels instead of every 5 levels. A brawler must be at least 6th level before picking this skill a second time.

Brutal: A brawler with this skill adds +2 to the DC of any ability gained through brawler skills (such as knockout and stun specialist).

Combat training: A brawler may chose a combat feat instead of a brawling skill, she must meet the prerequisites of that combat feat. A brawler may pick this skill any number of times. When chosing combat training, a brawler may change any feats gained previously with combat training; she must still meet all the prerequisites of feats chosen.

Enduring maneuvers: Feats gained through martial maneuvers last for 10 minutes. A brawler may pick this skill a second time, if she does so, then feats gained through martial maneuvers last for 1 hour.

Extra maneuver feat: A brawler with this skill increases the total number of feats that she may gain from martial maneuvers by 1 (thus at second level she could have up to 2 feats, at sixth level up to 3 feats, and at 10th level up to 4 feats).

Extra maneuvers: A brawler with this skill may use martial maneuvers a number of times per day equal to twice her class level.

Fast: A brawler with this skill gains a +10 bonus to her speed. A brawler may pick this skill once for every 4 brawler levels she possesses.

Finesse brawler: A brawler with this skill gains the Weapon Finesse feat.

Grappling specialist: A brawler with this skill deals an additional +1d6 damage when using grapples to inflict damage.

Great fortitude: A brawler with this skill gains the Great Fortitude feat.

Knockout (Su): A brawler with this skill can unleash a devastating attack that can instantly knock a target unconscious. She must announce this intent before making her attack roll. If the brawler strikes successfully and the target takes damage from the blow, the target must succeed at a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 the brawler’s level + the higher of the brawler’s Strength or Dexterity modifier) or fall unconscious for 1d6 rounds. A brawler may use this ability once a day for at level 16, and once more for every two levels above level 16. Creatures immune to critical hits or nonlethal damage are immune to this ability. A brawler must be level 16 before selecting this brawler skill.

Painful punches (Ex): A brawler with this skill may add +5 to the damage she deals with unarmed strikes, instead of bonus damage gained from Strength or Dexterity. A brawler must be at least 4th level before selecting this skill.

Professional: A brawler with this skill considers her brawler level as her fighter level + 2 for the purpose of qualifying for combat feats.

Stun specialist: A brawler with this skill gains the Stunning Fist feat. She considers her brawler level as her monk level for the purpose of determining how many times a day she can use the Stunning Fist feat. She need not meet the prerequisites of the feat, but she must be a 4th level brawler to select this brawler skill.

Style savant: A brawler with this skill may chose a single style feat, or feat that has a style feat as a prerequisite, without meeting that feats requirements.

Tough brawler: A brawler with this skill gains the Toughness feat, additionally she gains +1 natural armor bonus to AC.

Note that the changes to Martial Maneuvers make it very easy to determine what feats can be acquired: any combat feat, and any other feat that is available through the Brawler Skills class ability. Correspondingly, given the examples above, the brawler could get Great Fortitude, Skill Focus (acrobatics) and Toughness, in addition to all combat feats.


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Ssalarn wrote:
TarkXT wrote:


I'm not so sure. If you work off the standard set of feats that it takes to get to medusa's wrath than yeah I can see that. But the list is quite big. Honestly all you need to do is get them flatfooted which you can have if you manage to blind them through the dirty trick combat maneuver.

Still, I think this class is deeper than mere damage numbers. There's a lot going on here underneath that with martial maneuvers and the sheer swathe of things you can martial maneuver into.

The brawler might very well become my favorite martial class.

Very much this. One of the first things I jumped to was how to create a feat path that would allow me to use Martial maneuvers to jump into whatever combat style or maneuver tree the situation most warranted. The Brawler has a lot of potential to be able to bring exactly the right techniques to the table at any given time.

That is what I did with Berkley "The Hammer" Naveel: large feat potential.

The problem is the low duration and low number of uses a day. At level 10 Berkley can do a "full" feat set once (taking 3 feats) and then still have 2 feats left for the rest of the day. It's just not feasible in practice to rely on Martial Maneuvers to do large scale adaption for combat in each encounter. You need to build to be able to not rely on it, and then can use Martial Maneuvers either to cherry-pick a single feat (toolbox style). Or build to work reliably without Martial Maneuvers, and then go into alpha mode only in extreme encounters.

Some comparison builds:

Berkley "The Hammer" Naveel large feat potential
Mikiko Konda Snake Style toolbox build
nVali Letoba ignores flurries entirely
Ruby Spring bleeds and shreds enemies


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Tels wrote:
mbauers wrote:

I think the problem with Combat Expertise is that, on its own, the 13 Int requirement makes sense. You're a smarter combatant and you know how to read your opponents and fight defensively to keep yourself alive. That makes sense.

What doesn't make sense is that Combat Expertise is a prerequisite to Improved Trip, Dirty Trick, etc. You shouldn't have to be smart to trip someone or poke them in the eye. I think the simplest fix (though I probably shouldn't discuss this in this thread) would be to keep Combat Expertise as it is as a stand alone feat. Then make a new feat (we'll call it Combat Maneuvers for lack of a better term) that has a prerequisite of BAB 1 (or perhaps higher)whose benefit is that it gives you a +2 to CMB. Make Combat Maneuvers the prereq to gain access to the improved maneuver feats.

A fix like this could only take place in a new edition. It would require re-writing TONS of monster entries to account for the feat changes, and it would open up a new line of possibilities that weren't available before. Like a wolf with Improved Trip. Wolves can't ever qualify for Improved Trip because animals are limited to Int 2 and therefore can never qualify for Combat Expertise, despite Improved Trip being a good feat choice for wolves.

Not exactly. They could have a variety of feats that could grant access to Combat Expertise feats, e.g.

Combat Intuition
You have a sense of picking just the right moment to act.
Prerequisites: Wis 13
Benefit: You gain a +4 dodge bonus to AC against attacks of opportunity provoked from combat maneuvers. This includes both maneuvers initiated by yourself, as well as maneuvers inflicted on you.
Special: Combat Intuition counts as Combat Expertise for the purpose of meeting the prerequisites of feats and you may substitute your Wisdom score for your Intelligence score for the purpose of meeting the prerequisites of feats.

Combat Veteran
You have a sense of picking just the right moment to act.
Prerequisites: BAB 4
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus to CMB and CMD.
Special: Combat Veteran counts as Combat Expertise for the purpose of meeting the prerequisites of feats and you may treat your Intelligence score as 10 + your BAB for the purpose of meeting the prerequisites of feats that have Combat Expertise as a prerequisite.


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Nicos wrote:
Tels wrote:
Brawler's already steal most of their features from the Monk, now you want to give him better versions of those features too?
THe monk is a bad class, that is bad enough. It would be terrible if the monk mere existence dragged down the new classes.

I disagree; it is not a bad class, it is a challenging class. Which is why I like it. The defensive powers of the monk are really good, of the best in the game.


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Ruby Spring, Mistress of Bloodshed
Female human brawler 11
CE medium humanoid
Init +9; Senses Perception -1

Me? Not have the inner peace to learn hamatulatsu? What? Have they seen what I can do? I was born for this! Those incompetent fools and their devils will learn to kneel before me in pools of blood! Their disrespect will be washed with tears and soothed by anguish!

-=DEFENSE=-
AC 29, touch 23, flat 19 (armor +6, deflection +2, dex +7, dodge +3, insight +1)
HP 136 (11d10 + 66)
Fort 13; Ref 16; Will 4

-=OFFENSE=-
Speed 30ft
Melee unarmed attack +22/+17/+12 (1d10+5 20/x2) Type: Bludgeon; Size: Medium; Wgt: - lbs
Melee brawler's flurry +20/+20/+15/+15/+10 (1d10+5 20/x2) Type: Bludgeon; Size: Medium; Wgt: - lbs
Special Attacks wounding, 2d6 boar style, 1d10 two-weapon rend, 1d6 boar shred bleed
+23 disarm, +22 dirty trick, +21 trip, +20 other finessable maneuvers, +13 other maneuvers

-=OTHER=-
Str 10, Dex 24, Con 18, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 8 (20pt buy, racial bonus on Dexterity)
BAB +11; CMB +20 (finessable); CMD 34
Feats weapon finesse, toughness, weapon focus, boar style, dodge, weapon specialization, boar ferocity, greater wapon focus, boar shred, double-strike, two-weapon rend
Traits quain martial artist, reactionary
Favored class brawler
Favored bonus 11 hit points
Languages common, tien
Brawler abilities martial maneuvers 5/day; brawler's flurry (two-weapon fighting, improved two-weapon fighting); maneuver training (+3 disarm, +2 dirty trick, +1 trip); AC bonus +2; brawler strike (magic, cold iron, silver)
Skills Skills per level: 4 (4 + 1 human - 1 int); Armor check penalty: -
Trained acrobatics 20(10); climb 8(5); intimidate 12(10); 20(10) stealth; swim 8(5);
Untrained appraise 0; bluff 0; diplomacy 0; intimidate 0;

Equipment:

Wealth 1000ish gp

    * +2 brawling mithril chainshirt (10100)
    * +2 cloak of resistance (4000)
    * +4 belt of dexterity (16000)
    * +2 ring of protection (8000)
    * wounding amulet of mighty fists (16000)
    * dusty rose prism ioun stone (5000)
    * various consumables

Martial Maneuvers
Ruby Spring is not the brightest or gifted with common sense, but she has a brutal mean streak and a penchant for aggravating wounds. Even so, when she realizes that she's in for a desperate encounter, she enables the full Crane Style feat tree to give her an overwhelming defense from behind which she pick-off her foes.


  • Crane Style, Crane Wing, Crane Riposte when defense is the highest priority
  • Piranha Strike when facing easy to hit foes that need to be dealt with quickly, or when facing foes immune to bleed
  • Step Up, Following Step, Step-up and Strike when facing certain foes, she's sadistic like that
  • Blind-Fight, Improved Blind-Fight, [...] specialized circumstance

Comments
Expected DPR
Ruby Spring doesn't rely on brute or agile damage to kill, instead her foes are torn apart and bleed out; if she went with an agile amulet of mighty fists instead she would significantly increase her damage per round, at the cost of stacking bleed damage.
Basic flurry damage vs AC 25: 2 * 0.8 * 1.05 * 10.5 + 2 * 0.65 * 1.05 * 10.5 + 0.4 * 1.05 * 10.5 = 36.3825
Expected number of hits vs AC 25: 36.3825 / (10.5 * 1.05) = 3.3
Bonus damage from shred and rend: 12.5
Total expected direct damage 36.3825 + 12.5 = 49
Expected bleed damage after 1 round: 3.5 + 3 = 6.5
Expected bleed damage after 5 rounds: 18.5

Varying AC
Ruby Spring has good, albeit not amazing AC for her level. Coupled with a large hitpoint pool she has good staying power. In fights against dangerous enemies that can reliably hit her, she uses Crane Style to have a layered defense that penalizes her damage output, but keeps her safe from direct harm. If she finds a source of natural armor she can consider herself well-equipped to face a very dangerous foe (perhaps a potion of barkskin).

Gameplay Limitation
Similar to nVali, Ruby Spring is mostly self-sufficient with her feats, and typically uses martial maneuvers to solve particular problems (usually survivability).

Builds
Berkley "The Hammer" Naveel large feat potential
Mikiko Konda Snake Style toolbox build
nVali Letoba ignores flurries entirely
Ruby Spring bleeds and shreds enemies


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slayer_of_gellcor wrote:

Wanted to post my impressions from a playtest that happened tonight. We ran a party of four. 4th level. 25 point buy. Our party consisted of a Brawler, a Skald, a Bloodrager, and a Hunter. Thoughts on the Brawler:

-The Brawler seemed very powerful. I've played many Fighters and many Monks, and he blew them out of the water.
-The main defining trait of the Brawler was the Martial Maneuvers. This Brawler was designed with Maneuvers in mind, and it showed. Before the game, I printed out a list of potential feats that I could choose from, and, while not all of them were advisable (Weapon Finesse, given that I was a strength-based character) I had over 40 feats I could have chosen from. I liked the action economy of spending the move action, but it actually worked against Brawler's Flurry, as I only once performed a flurry. The rest of the time I was switching feats to something that was more useful.
-I think that having a smaller list of feats to choose from would bring it a bit more on par power level-wise, and still provide an interesting mechanic to play. Comparing this to the Hunter, who similarly could swap out Teamwork feats for himself and his animal companion: his didn't seem to cause him to be grossly overpowered: the Brawler did.
-The class was incredibly fun, and really had a good balance of flavor elements of fighter and monk without feeling too much like I was playing either.

Exactly how did you have encounters? At level 4 the brawler can use martial maneuvers twice a day. How did you end up with one round of flurrying and lots of rounds spent changing feats?

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