Lord Thasmudyan's page

This a hotly debated question in my group I run IRL. Basically the feat states a monk with panther could get up to there wisdom bonus of AoO in a round. Now reading AoO in combat section it states it has to be a separate trigger action. Which is how I have always understood it. In the case of the monk from my group he is a Snake/Panther style Monk of many styles, so based on the understanding the max this monk could do vs one creature in a given situation is 3 attacks.

First he moves in and provoke an AoO, then get panther retaliatory attack, if the opponent misses snake style triggers and if he hits the snake style AoO, he then gets another one as an immediate action.

does this sound about right or is there something I am missing about Panther Claw?

So over the next two months as my current campaign winds to a close I will be preparing for a new campaign. Which will bring the characters into Ravenloft or the early version of it as it were. Basic idea is that I will be taking the Expedition module and combining it with a re-worked version of Gryphon Hill (RL2) for a timewarp like situation, all being run in Pathfinder. My question is not a rules question but more of a question of how to succesfully use these modules and keep it as close to the lore of Ravenloft campaign setting. I know from reading elsewhere and from some previous experience that there is some differences in the lore, mainly with Madam Eva. Just want to have the right feel even if these to mods are not entirely true to ravenloft lore and find a way to make them fit so that if this evolves into a more true to form Ravenloft campaign I can let them explore more.

Just ran a great first session of Life's Bazaar last night, the group consisted of a Fletchling Ninja who is apart of an up and coming small thief guild called the Crimison Smile. A Ifrit Fighter who acts as a bouncer for bar/house of ill-repute named the Salted Wench; down the street from the Tipped Tankard. A Half-Drow Bladebound Magus, who is a bartender at the Salted Wench as well. A Drunken Brute Barbarian Elf and patron of the Salted Wench. And lastly a Aasimar cleric of Pelor who is friends with the ifrit bouncer.

The group got all the way up to investigating the Orphanage and are already thinking about Ghelve's Locks and the Lord Mayor's office (because of Fario and Felian) as the next two stops.

I introduced them to Lord Vhalantru by way of the Guildmaster of the Crimson Smile who told the group they should seek him out if they want to get an adventuring charter for the group. On the way into his manor they ran into the Stormblades, they sneered at the party and acted very snotty towards them which lead to Todd getting pushed by the Ifrit fighter and Todd sputtering his father would hear about this and the Ifrit fighter would regret laying a hand on him. Vhalantru impressed them a lot and I never once mentioned his full name just referred to him as Lord Vhalantru. He told them he gave out the last charter to the Stormblades which annoyed the group and then said he could get the Lord Mayor to let him give them a charter if they could do something that would show their devotion to the city. To which the group told him they were trying to find the orphans. They already like him -Insert evil DM smile here- He even gave the party some money for their trouble and as an investment in the group's future endeavors.

So I have introduced them in one session to quite a few people and plan on getting some of the other major players like Maavu introduced or foreshadowed over the next several sessions but I am running into a bit of a problem. The first combat when they dealt with the street thugs the Ninja snuck up on the thug watching the street thanks to his good roll and my bad roll and then sneak attacked the dude with a crossbow and rolled a crit. Damage from the crit killed the thug and made his pals messing with Brother Laro down the alley aware that something was up as they saw their pal clutch his throat and die. This was followed by the Ifrit walking with an evil grin into the alley with his axe slung over his back and stopping several feet from the other thugs. Followed by the Cleric Of Pelor who told them they best let the priest go and bugger off. And she rolled a nat 20 on the intimidate check :( So they ran off, the combat was over before it could really begin and Jil never got introduced....

I have read tons of the delvesdeep stuff and have had the mags and the hardcover for years so I am quite familiar with modules, just not sure how else I can introduce her as a mover and shaker...I know I want her to be part-timing in the Salted Wench undercover as a lady of the night or barmaid trying to keep an eye on the Crimson Smile and the party but beyond that not sure what else. And even that will be something in the background, because I want her when introduced to make them all do a double take because something about Jil even in her Last Laugh make up reminds them of someone they know. Any thoughts or ideas?

Been running a group on thru Maure Castle here, We lost a few people and so now the group is down a cleric and a ranged character. The party currently consists of a Human Monk, a Half-elf Weretigeress Rogue/Sorc, a Human Fighter, a Human Rogue, and Elf Conjurer Wizard.

I am looking for up to 2 players wanting to play. Will be using Golarion as the setting. PFRPG classes are in(meaning any class from a current book released for PFRPG are in), Prestige classes are allowed from all the same books. Player's Handbook II, Expanded Psionics Handbook in. Tome of Magic (Binder and Shadowcaster) and Tome of Secrets in. Dragon Compendium classes in (except Montebanks and Death Master). Archtypes are okay but need to be approved first.

Most races in; any evil races (ie drow, derro, duegar, lycanthropes, etc.) out; On case by case I may approve a evil race but the game is going to consist of non-evil characters so you will have to have a good reason why they would be running with the group and not the atypical drizzt excuse. Races from the new Races book are acceptable.

25 point buy, Anyone interested needs to put the character together. I will make the final decision based on a few factors. Characters should have full backgrounds and stats. Looking for people willing to post at the minimum 5 - 10 times a week. HP will be Max + Con Bonus up to 12th level, future HP will be rolled in discussion thread. Starting at 12th Lvl; Characters must be complete/approved before game the will be able to join the group.

Fast XP Chart
Good or Neutral with good tendencies for the alignments (no EVIL alignments)

Each character will choose 3 traits.

The rain has been pouring down in sheets for the last few hours but despite this throughout Ptolus the taverns and bars are full to bursting with the celebrating citizen drinking to the new year on this 1st of Newyear. Lightning strikes illuminate the night every few minutes revealing the most striking feature of Ptolus, the Spire. The Spire a constant reminder of all the evil the lurks below and all around the streets of Ptolus. It evil on this night seems to weigh heavily in the air. The streets seem empty though despite the occassional patroling guard and the shivvel addicts wondering about in a haze. All of you are making your way to the Ghostly Minstrel, for a gathering of local adventurers being hosted by The Delver's Guild, to be held this evening in honor of the New Year. Strangely the snow that usually coats the ground can only be seen in clumps of mush, in gutters or the eves of windows due to a strange warm weather that started a week ago. What would normally been an occasion to get out of the cold and in front of a warm fire at the Minstrel instead is a chance to drink some cold mead to cool down and wring out your wet clothing near the hearth after a wet but hot and humid day.

Pulling your coats further over your bodies to protect you from the steady downpour, you look towards the shops you pass, as you enter Delver’s Sqaure from Center Street and it becomes apparent that those not partying at the taverns have turned in for the evening as most of the shops seem closed. On the corner of each street are posted various announcements from around the city the most prominent of which is are several flyer’s for an upcoming Republican rally in Oldtown and wanted posters for various crimnals. Across from the entrance to Delver’s Square you see the small chapel of St. Gustav’s Chapel, a welcome sight to all adventurers who frequent the dungeons below Ptolus.

You head Northwest into the square the inviting lights and sounds of the Minstrel up ahead. It occurs to you that the only citizens you have noticed in the last several blocks venturing onto the streets are the shivvel addicts. They seem to stare out at you from within the confines of doorway’s with their bloodshot eyes, blackened fingers and constant shaking. You swear you can smell their horrid breath from across the street, ever time you have passed one this evening. This alone brings a depressing air to a day of festivities for the holiday. May be it is a bad omen of things to come this year.

About 40 feet from the front of the Minstrel you come together old friends and new, for some of you this is the first time you have met each other, for other its is a welcome sight to see old friends and past acquaintances on such an eerie evening like this…

Here is the OOC discussion thread lets move discussion of the game over to here for now while we wait for the last finishing touches on some of the party's characters

I have been getting ideas together for a PbP Ptolus game, using the PFRPG as the system for the game, looking for people wanting to play.
4 to 6 players will be accepted.

Character Creation Guidelines
1st Level Characters
Race: Core, APG, UC, UM, ARG, Ptolus or Arcana Evolved(within reason and no drow or custom races) 

Class: Core, APG, UC, UM
Archetypes: Core, APG, UC, UM, ARG (stacking is allowed, assuming nothing overlaps)
Abilities: 20-pt Buy
Alignment: No Evil, all else is allowed
Wealth: Average by class
Character Traits: Three traits

What I'm Looking For
I would like players who can post a minimum of 1-2 posts per weekday.
I'm looking for creative, interesting backstories - not overly optimized character crunches
Play well with others. If a player makes a mistake, it's ok to point it out, but do so kindly - or in private. If you have a frustration with a fellow player, message me privately first.

I have a character in my RL game that wants to collect trophies from kills and create items such as a necklace of teeth or a cloak from the skin of the creature slain. He also was hoping this would give him some sort of ability to intimidate people/enemies that he comes in contact with.

I couldn't find anything that is like this except for an achievement feat from Legacy of Fire Player’s Guide, called all gnolls must die. It similar but not exactly the same. I think that what he wants should be handled as some sort of feat if he wants some sort of in game effect and will depend on the type of trophy/what type of creature it came from but at a loss for the crunch of it aside from require a skill check to make a trophy. Any ideas would be great thanks

You have traveled for several weeks from Absalom at the behest of Venture Captain Kreighton Shaine and find yourselves deep within the western mountains of Cheliax. Before you set out he provided you with a guide and horses to get you to Maure Castle. A days ride from the castle your guide deserted the party his last words to the group warning of the vile evil of the place and telling you it would be better if you don't go there. You continued towards the castle all day wondering if this place could be as bad as everyone has made it out to be. Around sunset the clouds moved in and began pouring sheets of rain followed by harsh, cold wind while you are still a few miles from the castle. Finally around midnight you arrive at the castle a quick search of the walls outside the castle you come upon a tunnel After proceeding eastward for about ten minutes along a downward sloping passage, you come at last to a T intersection, with a short hallway continuing to the north and another leading south into darkness. A large eight-pointed star design has been chiseled into the stone floor at the intersection. The points of the star are entirely cleaned out, as if something is meant to be inset into the shallow depressions.

map

Here we go lets keep any OOC discussion or questions not pertaining to the campaign or non-IC questions about the game in this thread. Will probably post the game thread in the next day or so once the last of the characters are completed

Been away for the last two years, back and wanting to restart a Maure Castle campaign started two years ago. Have been wanting to play around with Maure Castle for a long time as I have all the current levels of the castles including the ones from piped piper press :) Anywho looking for up to 6-8 players wanting to play. Will be using Golarion as the setting. PFRPG classes are in(meaning any class from a current book released for PFRPG are in), Prestige classes are allowed from all the same books. Player's Handbook II, Expanded Psionics Handbook in. Tome of Magic (Binder and Shadowcaster) and Tome of Secrets in. Dragon Compendium classes in (except Montebanks and Death Master). Archtypes are okay but need to be approved first.

Most races in; any evil races (ie drow, derro, duegar, lycanthropes, etc.) out; On case by case I may approve a evil race but the game is going to consist of non-evil characters so you will have to have a good reason why they would be running with the group and not the atypical drizzt excuse. Races from the new Races book out next week are acceptable but will need to be reviewed before the game starts to verify it matches with any new rules.

25 point buy, Anyone interested needs to put the character together. I will make the final decision based on a few factors. Characters should have full backgrounds and stats. Looking for people willing to post at the minimum 5 - 10 times a week. HP will be Max + Con Bonus at 1st level all level there after need to be rolled in thread

Starting at 12th Lvl; Characters must be complete/approved before game will start which won't be till sometime later this week or next.

Fast XP Chart
Good or Neutral with good tendencies for the alignments (no EVIL alignments)

Each character will choose 3 traits.
Will be using http://invisiblecastle.com/ for dice rolling.
Will post further details on exact location of setting once game is a little closer

itching for this series to start looks so awesome. .Supposed to start on Jan 22nd 2010. :)

link

Everyone
The wintry month of Abadius has dragged on for sometime but as is always the case in Lastwall the people endure, ever watchful of the northern front. Ever mindful of the Gallowspire. This day is no different. Alfrik has had you all training endlessly for the last three months, always telling you the day will come when the lords of Lastwall will be shown the value of his infiltration model. That day has come. You have been on r&r for the last two days and are spread throughout Vigil about your various interests. When to each of you, arrives a missive carried by a military courier. Upon inspection of the missive you see that it has Alfrik's dwarven clan seal stamped on it. It reads as follows:

All,
It is time, the glorious hour of our proving, the operation begins, meet at the barracks at 1900 hours, I will brief you upon your arrival with the mission intel. It would be best if you tie up any loose ends as you might not be coming back anytime soon.


Yours,
Captain Alfrik

Here ya guys go. here is the OOC thread

Hey guys felt like running one other pbp while I have time as my current two are slowing a little bit. Thought I would see if anyone was interested in a Expedition to Ravenloft pbp using PFRPG as the baseline. All core races and some non-core (with dm approval) are in. All PFRPG classes and Tome of secrets class are in as well as playtest classes. The game starts at 6th level. heroic stat roll (2d6+6) rolled in thread and 1st level hp max all other levels rolled in thread both must be approved first.

Its been a long trip to the ruins of Maure Castle. It all started several weeks ago in Caliphas the capital of Ustlav. Everyone had been enjoying a rest in the capital after several long adventures that had ended in the capital. The plan had been to rest before heading back to Absalom. As with every best laid plan this plan fell through.
Two nights into your "vacation" the group was approched by member of the Pathfinder Society. He identified himself as Yuri, and told you a story of a castle northeast of Caliphas in the region of Virlych south of Gallowspire. The story spoke of a castle filled with deadly traps, crafted by the hands of devil-worshipping wizards and nobles of House Maure, and of the evil monsters now lurking in its depths. As well he mentioned huge mounds of gold and riches. He also mentioned that a former member of the Pathfinders who had joined a secret society known as the Seekers had supposedly stayed in the castle some thirty years ago but had not been seen in a long time. Yuri explained that this Seeker named Kerfane had kept a journal. Yuri offered a sum of 2000 gp apiece for the return of the journal. You acceptted the contract and set out within the week.
The travel was long and arduous but you arrived this afternoon at the ruins, after some searching you found a cave near the ruins and have now followed it underground. After proceeding eastward for about ten minutes along a downward sloping passage, you come at last to a T intersection, with a short hallway continuing to the north and another leading south into darkness. A large eight-pointed star design has been chiseled into the stone floor at the intersection. The points of the star are entirely cleaned out, as if something is meant to be inset into the shallow depressions.

Here ya go guys this is the OOC thread, discuss have fun should have the ic thread this evening or tomorrow.

Thas

Finding myself with enough time to run a second pbp as I don't currently have any home games going on. Have been wanting to play around with Maure Castle for a long time as I have all the current levels of the castles including the ones from piped piper press :) Anywho looking for up to 6-8 players wanting to play. All players will need to be able to post at least 3 to 4 times a week.

Will be using Golarion as the setting. PFRPG classes are in(including the playtest ones), Prestige classes are allowed from all books except Paths of Powers as I don't currently have a copy of this on print or pdf. Player's Handbook II, Expanded Psionics Handbook in. Tome of Magic (Binder and Shadowcaster) and Tome of Secrets in. Dragon Compendium classes in(except Montebanks and death master).

Most races in; any evil races (ie drow, derro, duegar, lycanthropes, etc.) out; On case by case I will approve a evil race but the game is going to consist of non-evil characters. All racial substitution levels are banned.

Heroic base stats (2d6+6); All stats must be rolled in thread and approved before characters are created.
HP will be Max at 1st level all level there after need to be rolled in thread

Starting at 12th Lvl; Characters must be complete/approved before game will start which won't be till sometime later this week.

Fast XP Chart
Good or Neutral with good tendencies for the alignments (no EVIL alignments)

Each character will choose 2 traits from traits pdf.
Will be using http://invisiblecastle.com/ for dice rolling.
There will also be action points though I haven't decided which version I will be using.
Will post further details on exact location of setting once game is a little closer.

The rain pours down from a darkened sky, that looms heavily over Ptolus on this 1st of Newyear as each of you make your way to the Ghostly Minstrel, for a gathering of local adventurers to be held this evening in honor of the New Year. Strangely the snow that usually coats the ground is not but mush due to a strange warm weather that started a week ago. What would normally been an occasion to get out of the cold and in front of a warm fire at the Minstrel instead is a chance to drink some cold mead and cool down after scorching humid day.

Pulling your coats further over your bodies to protect you from the steady downpour, you look towards the shops you pass, as you enter Delver’s Sqaure from Center Street and it becomes apparent that most of Ptolus’s citizens have turned in for the evening as most of the shops seem closed. On the corner of each street are posted various announcements from around the city the most prominent of which is are a wanted poster and several flyer’s for an upcoming Republican rally in Oldtown. Across from the entrance to Delver’s square you see the small chapel of St. Gustav’s Chapel a welcome sight to all adventurers who frequent the dungeons below this fair city.

You head Northwest into the square the inviting lights and sounds of the Minstrel up ahead. It again strikes you that the only citizens venturing onto the streets aside from fellow adventurer’s like yourselves are the bedraggled shivvel addicts that seem to stare out at you from within the confines of doorway’s with their bloodshot eyes, blackened fingers and constant shaking. You swear you can smell their horrid breath from across the street ever time you have passed one on your trek to the Minstrel this evening. This should be a day of festivities and instead the depressing air of this holiday seems as if a bad omen of things to come this year.

As you continue you come together as a group at last 40 feet from the front of the Minstrel. For some of you this is the first time you have met each other, for other its is a welcome sight to see old friends and past acquaintances on such an eerie evening like this….

All OOC discussion will be in this thread when everything is ready. (Hopefully this evening) I will post the IC thread link here.
For now discuss.

Thas

I have been getting ideas together for a PbP Ptolus game, using the PFRPG as the system for the game, looking for people wanting to play. Both of the new playtest class are acceptable class choices as well. Any races out of PFRPG, Ptolus or Arcana Evolved are allowed. 4 to 6 players will be accepted.

Looking for a few people to join in a play by post that will be a test run for rules I am working on for a home game. Let me know if your interested. All races okay except (gnomes and half-orcs of course); All Iron Heroes class are in. Arcanist from True Sorcery and Psychics from Advanced Player's Guide.

Looking to start running a game here in the next month or so. Have been without a group for several months but have been eager to get a Dark Sun game off the ground for sometime, looking for interested parties. Will be using Iron Heroes as the base line rules with Green Ronin's True Sorcery book for preservers/defilers and as well the advanced players guide's Psychic class for Psionics, the over all fill will be low magic, reliance on ones abilities rather than one magic items, of which Iron Heroes is perfect for, let me know if you are interested at this point I am just beginning to look for people to join the game, anticipate first game to kick off by end of november as long as I have at least a couple players. Let me know msg me at Pdoxntt@gmail.com

P.S. have been contemplating test run via pbp anyone interested in this also msg at same email above. Thanx

Hey guys just wondering if there is anyway short of canceling my subscription to not get this months subscription as I am out of work and short on money for the time being. Let me know thanks.

Battle of Burgledorf

mmmmm k......

I know Saul is evil but according to his stat block on pg 21 he is listed as CE and on pg 63 of the Gold Goblin article (in the sidebar about the Gold Goblin staff) he is listed as NE. Which is it? Just wondering, by the way this adventure is awesome been reading through it while at work tonight. It has all the makings of a fun series

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Working on a d20 pirate game set in Nick Logue's Razor Coast. Trying to figure decide if I need anything else in terms of good supplements wondering if anyone here has any knowledge about the following titles:
Skull & Bones (Green Ronin prolly get it on pdf), Black Flags: Piracy in the Caribbean, Freeport, d20 Past, Pirates (think it by Mongoose)?
Probably going to drop in the Port Royal from Dragon #118, and Freeport somewhere in the Razor coast just for kicks.
let me know thanks.

Paizoian got a question see below

Just got Seven Days in the mail yesterday and I hate to sound like a total horn dog (even though I am) but Andaisin is hawt!!!!! Must be my love for dark, goth looking girls....and the way she was drawn dang she got some junk in her trunk :) Anywho great art for her. To bad she dies at the end of Seven Days. :X

Yeah I know it sounds like an odd combo but listen for a few.

So I am working on a conversion for dark sun using Iron Heroes cause its got some seriously awesome cinematic qualities and its low magic which fits perfectly with Dark Sun which has always been a low magic high psionic setting. Anyways so I am usings the magic system from True Sorcery and will be using the Psychic from Advanced Player's Handbook by Green Ronin both are skill based system which fits nicely with Iron Heroes which plays up the whole skill accept of the game.

Now here is where I am stuck I have been going through all my old Dark Sun modules and the revised dark sun box set as well as the Incursion info and have come across a mention of the lich-queen in the module Blackspine. The module is about a group of renegade githyanki trying to use athas as a place to build an army to fight Vlaakith so there queen can rule the githyanki. I am not sure how I would tie everything together and whether this would all work especailly with the incursion having the flying ships and stuff. I know I want to foreshadow and have the campaign be have lots of espionage qualities to it but not sure on all the details so far. Only thing set in stone is that the player will start in an alternative verision Freedom module as slaves and that there will be a shadowy organization the pcs are working for that will wind up prolly being tied to the incursion plot.

I was thinking this would be a great tie-in for the Lich-queen module and then also tie in the thri-keen invasion of the tablelands referenced in the revised dark sun boxset as a part of the first 10 levels of play.

Discuss! Formulate evil DM plots!

P.S. I have all the magazines that have been tied to the incursion including the ones released under 3.0 and have 90% of the Dark Sun stuff.

Anyone have a link to or know if the players handout from the SCHC are availible for download haven't been able to find them. Also has anyone compiled a printable version of the npc statblock section of the SCHC, if not I can always copy it on a copy machine rather than flip back to it every five seconds during combat and such.

thanks

Anyone have any idea what Golarion gods I should replace the main gods in SCAP with? biggest problem is what to replace Wee Jas with cause Pharasma is not a good 1:1 replacement for the goddess of Magic and death. Any ideas would be helpful
so far this what I got

St Cuthbert = Imoedae
Pelor = Sarenrae
Vecna = Norgorber
Hextor = Rovagug
Erythnul = Lamashtu?
Kord = Gorum or Cayden Cailean
(only reason I would go with gorum is cause of the whole arena that kord has in town and this seems more in line with Gorum)
Wee Jas = ???? Not sure at all on this one

And on that note are most cities temples of Abadar the community bank? as with COCT

Anyone have any idea what Golarion gods I should replace the main gods in SCAP with? biggest problem is what to replace Wee Jas with cause Pharasma is not a good 1:1 replacement for the goddess of Magic and death. Any ideas would be helpful

just wanted to cancel my gamemastery subscription, getting too expensive to have both that and pathfinder and I enjoy pathfinder more.

thanks

never mind go ahead and ship this order. thanks anyways

Looking for 3-4 players for a Evening/late night game Wednesdays here in the College Station/Bryan area. 3.5 Black Company, Dark Sun or Pathfinder game depending group. Also wouldn't be too opposed to a online chat based game if I can't find anyone locally. send me an email if you are interested @ Pdoxntt@hotmail.com

Order # 839720 got the last of my green ronin shipments today and the box was tore into on the bottom which also seems to have caused damage to my copy of Eternal Rome. wondering if there are any copies of the book left that could be traded out if not no worries I will keep the one I got. Thanks let me know.

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*bump*

not sure if this is just some random bug or much less where this post belongs but I thought I would see if anyone else has noticed this. I pulled my account and noticed I had 8 downloads where previously I had 7 and thought "Oh joy something else is shipping.....". No, as it happens after clicking My Downloads link, I scrolled down and wonder of wonders I have two copies of W1 pdf??? O.o
so after thinking to myself WTF!?! I figured I would post here to see if anyone else noticed this or if I missed some news

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Just wondering if these have started shipping out for those of us who didn't combine shipping?

I am one of many pathfinder charter subscribers who opted to get a gamemastery sub too. However yesterday when you were sending out the emails for pathfinder 1 and seven swords for those that had both I didn't get one. All I have gotten was the email about pathfinder 1 being availble for download and that it and the players guide are shipping. The order # 782101 doesn't show as even shipping and yet other people have already receieved their pdf copy. has mine been overlooked? Just worried as to when it would be shipping and eager to get my hands on this adventure. thanks

I am one of many pathfinder charter subscribers who opted to get a gamemastery sub too. However yesterday when you were sending out the emails for pathfinder 1 and seven swords for those that had both I didn't get one. All I have gotten was the email about pathfinder 1 being availble for download and that it and the players guide are shipping. The order # 782101 doesn't show as even shipping and yet other people have already receieved their pdf copy. has mine been overlooked? Just worried as to when it would be shipping and eager to get my hands on this adventure. thanks

Hey guys I am not showing any new pdfs in my My Download section but I just checked my Order history and shows that Bloodsworn shipped yesterday. Whats up with the pdf I know Cosmo said in another thread concerning this order that as soon as this order shipped I would recieve and email saying I could download it in my downloads but as yet I haven't got anything. so whats up?