Liam Warner's page

Nothing special here just your standard organization.

Cohort: Usually either a regent/manager or my familiar with class levels.

Followers: The people running the day to day hassles of managing my vast wealth and possesions.

In DnD era style play they're usually members of my household (old school style where the gardener of your country house in a foreign land is still considered a member of your household albeit not a member of your family). They manage property, sell the loot I don't want, grow crops, etc. The lower level members are the peasants, general labourers while the higher level ones oversee household interests in various courts, major cities etc.

In more modern times their members of a multi-national corporation with the level one's are the fresh out of school new recruits while the higher level ones are regional or higher managers. The cohort typically serves as CEO overseeing the day to day affairs of my empire coming to me for special decisions.

Either way as my characters power and ability grow so do their resources. I have adapated rules for noble households from another game which leadership is a pre-requisite feat for. Its not in all games but in those with wild untamed areas the players can become adventurers, leaders of a large "guild" and then ruler of their own noble household with estates, properties and other perks and pitfalls.

A sentient creature has surrendered itself to a Paladin. The creature is considered by that part of the world to be considered a kill on sight nuisance. Hrm.

Well, the Good option is to spare it. The Lawful option to slay it.

I think a Lawful Good option would be to banish it on pain of death. You escort it to the border of the part of the world that considers it a kill on sight nuisance. In chains of course. Then free it at the border and tell it if re-enters that part of the world that it's life is forfeit and no mercy will be given.

Banishing is often a lesser punishment (compared to death) given to those who surrender I believe, so it shouldn't have any detriments to your alignment on either spectrum.

Hmmmm so we're shipping goblins to the criminal colonies then.

So basically unless I boost or otherwise enhance my familiar there's no point in rolling I just have it do round 1 hit = 1 point non-lethal, round 2 miss, round 3 hit = 1 point non lethal. Thanks.

Subject say's what I would appreciate help on. I can't see how say a cat with 2claws can hurt anything on d2-4 damage?

Base stats modified by the Familiar chart. Basically that mens int buff.

Thanks.

I was just wondering does my wizards cat familiar use the base stats for a creature of its type or do I use point buy on them as well?

Personally I'm less of a fan of dimensional lock than I am one of directional teleport. Which appeals to you more?

1) Guy grabs bracers of armour +6 and tries to teleport with no success leaving him trapped in the shop with the storekeep.

2) Guy grabs bracers of armour +6 and tries to teleport away with the result he appears naked in a cell at the local guards house while all his gear appears on the shopkeeps desk for appraisal and resale.

It could be that it has a specific magical key e.g. the bubble will only open to the sound of green.

@Golden Esque I rather like one story where a characters abilities were described as not only violating the laws of reality but making them sit up and beg afterwards.

Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:

Depends on how secretive the witch is with the familiar's name. If they only ever call the familiar by a nickname in public, then finding out the familiars name would be pretty difficult.

You'd probably have to contact sources among the familiar's plane of origin, or alternatively try and find some of the familiar's old enemies among the planes.

And hey, that's a great adventure hook! A short little plane-hopping sidequest to get the intel, with the payoff being a weakened wizard or witch in the final battle.

The nickname may well be enough. You just need to be able to specify the particular outsider/elemental, you don't need it's true name. If the witch goes around calling her imp "Fluffy-Butt" then you can use Planar Binding to get the imp called "Fluff-Butt" regardless of other names the imp might have.

Guess that depends on what you define as its proper name, to me Fluffy Butt is a nickname. I'd also like to point out . . .

1) The spell specifies it calls a creature on another plane so you could only use it if you and the familiar were on different planes. As a DM I'd probably allow it if you cast it on one of the inner/outer planes to call a creature from the material though.

2) Even greater binding only works up to 18HD and since a familiar works off the casters once the witch hits level 19 the lines useless.

Merisiel: I think the kobold at the back just cast a spell. Did anyone identify it?

Tengu: "I'm pretty sure it was summon monster IX . . . I think we're out of our depth."

Aasimar Paladin.

"There are things that go bump in the night. I am the one who bumps back."

I'm one of the things that goes bump in the night nice to meet you.

Thanks for all the help, I've ordered a couple of minatures from auggies that will give me one I can use (avenger, human wizard, elf wizard, werewolf etc).

Preferably painted, human/female/wizard/quarterstaff although I am willing to pick up others along with it as part of deal in order to plan for the future as I said. The Paizo site had a druid/paladin/ranger minature in humans but no wizard I could see, I'll try those other ones you suggested.

EDIT
I don't use ebay much so all I could find was non-rpg minatures or links to box sets that didn't really say what was in them.

You may put ranks in the Craft skill as a means of increasing your bonus on Day Job checks, but you can't make a Craft check using the base rules as outlined in the Skills chapter of the Core Rulebook. Such rules involve extensive amounts of time and result in you actually creating something with a set value, which have all been rolled into the more abstract Day Job mechanic used in the organized play campaign.

Thanks for the replies although it has left me unsure if I want to put ranks into it or not now.

I need to get a minature to represent my character but I'd like to get one that actually looks at least a little approriate. However everything I've seen is a rather expensive random pack. Does anyone know where I could purchase a specific minature? I don't mind buying several e.g. a you select X minatures for X dollars deal but I don't want to spend money and then find out I've got nothing appropriate.

Which is why I thought it would be acceptable and its a representation on the character sheet my character knows how to draw well. However it does say "except for specific examples cited in this guide or the Pathfinder Society FAQ, the Craft skill is not legal for play" and this is the craft skill. So although I don't see why I couldn't use it to craft a much better drawing than I could do in my wizards journal I'm not sure if it'd be legal to take.

As has been evident from other posts I'm making my first pathfinder society character and I have another question, this time about the craft feat. Specifically I was going to take Craft Drawing to represent my wizards habit of sketching drawings of various things they've seen in their journals, or even just drawing a picture in general.

Now the pathfinder character creation guide say's . . .

"Neither the craft feats nor the item creation section of
the magic items chapter in the Core Rulebook are legal for
play. Additionally, except for specific examples cited in
this guide or the Pathfinder Society FAQ, the Craft skill
is not legal for play and crafting of mundane items is not
allowed in Pathfinder Society."

but I can't find any actual other examples given. I can't see why it would be a problem to take this as while I am producing something its not an item mundane or otherwise its just a picture. However I'm inexperienced in this kind of play and I'd like to get a verdict from an experienced viewpoint please. Would Craft: Drawing be accpetable or is this something I just need to roleplay and maybe put the skillpoint in swimming or something?

Liam - Make a fake Kitsune. Human Synthesist Summoner. Make the eidolon appear around you so you look like a fox. Then to imitate the Kitsune's abilities, drop the eidolon and look like a human. You may be able to take a few traits to imitate the spell like abilities.

On the plus side - I will have a character who can try to fake people out by telling them I am a Kitsune. :)

On the minus side - I will not be able to play my Kitsune with Feral and friends. :(

Well that's a creative approach but I'll just go human this time.

The drawback being if like me you live in a reasonably out of the way area and work 5+ days a week with few breaks its hard to get to conventions.

Liam,

Dont worry about it. Read in between the words Mike said "by April 1st" advanced race guide comes out in late June....

When I'll be staying temporarily in another city for work, hence why I'm hoping I'll find out about it and be able to do soemthing if it becomes an option since I wont know the area/have the same access to things I do at home.

Thanks so human it is and hopefully if the Kitsune ever become avaiable I'll find out about and be able to take advantage of it.

I'm starting a new character on the 1st of April at a local pathfinder society and I just wanted to confirm that by that date the Kitsune from Tian races would still not be a legal choice for me. Can someone confirm or deny this sad knowledge please?

Liam Warner wrote:

Talon3585 wrote:

Liam Warner wrote:

Well tossing aside time I'm a fan of the Kitsune fighter/mage/rogue while getting to level 20 in all those classes will not happen in 90% of games its a dream I hold dear. Best I can probably get is a wizard/rogue gestalt since will magus/rogue gives better fighting ability it costs too much in the spell, no pocket plane and a restricted spell list

i have a lv 17 blade bound/ kensi magus. starting at lv 1 would be kinda hard, but starting at, lets say, 17 can be extremely powerful. not having to purchase weapons or armor leaves u open to wonderous items :)

It's not so much the combat potential but the versatility and high level mage options that appeal to me. Things like creating your own pocket paradise or becoming immortal for instance which is why I normally play a straight mage. However that's a topic for another thread.

i would love to see this thread :)

Feel free to create it, I have no luck with my threads, one I opened by specificaly to ignore a specific rule for the purposes of the thread and the first couple of posts immediatlely pointed out that same rule as to why it wouldn't work out. When I explained I'd asked for that rule to be ignored as it was houseruled differently the thread got completely derailed into how my houseruling meant that my wanting opinions on the other issue was completely invalid as I could houserule it away (as I knew it would which was I'd left that out of my original post).

Genku: I KNEW it! Now I have PROOF that some familiars other than monkeys can be the wizard's wand jockey.

FD: I trust you man. I'm sure you only want the best for Dr Wartenstein.

So, here's a weird thought: you have a wizard that wastes a couple feats and some permanency combos on his familiar (cat) at 12th level. At this point he has a bipedal cat with opposable hands, has increased in size from tiny to small and it's claws are magical. It also has an intellegence of 11, can speak (through permanent tongues shared) and has all its master's skills. Its ALMOST a little person and per the fluff around the familiar may have it's own personality supplemental to whatever the wizard has. My thought is; does puss in boots now have sort of it's own life? I mean RAW says it's still a familiar and beholden to its master's every whim, but really by 12th level what use does the wizard have for a cat-man in combat anymore?

Reminds me of the cartoon movie The Last Unicorn. A wizard went off and died leaving behind its familiar which by virtue of the spells lobbed on it had been transformed as I described above. When introduced in the story he's a grizzled old apprentice w/one eye and sort of a tough attitude and he's maintaining his old master's tower.

Atilan or a couple others know this, but what happens in the case of permanently altered familiars if they are dismissed? I know the FAQ/Eratta states that the dismissed animal converts to a normal animal of its type, but like above, what if you've taken feats to permanently make it walk upright, given it hands, permanized an enlarge and tongues spell on it etc. Does it retain all these changes?

By RAW I believe it becomes a very confused cat, by common sense I'd say it should retain them (in my game a familiar retains all the magical changes permanently) but its up to the DM. Personally one of my favorite familiars was a grimalkin that due to a kind DM and the use of the improved familiar/leadership feats was able to gain its own class levels as a wizard.

I don't see the problem with just giving everyone +2 skills. It lets the skill monkey's retain their advantage but it allows just a little more flexibility in the classes that currently only get 2.

Liam Warner wrote:

Well tossing aside time I'm a fan of the Kitsune fighter/mage/rogue while getting to level 20 in all those classes will not happen in 90% of games its a dream I hold dear. Best I can probably get is a wizard/rogue gestalt since will magus/rogue gives better fighting ability it costs too much in the spell, no pocket plane and a restricted spell list

i have a lv 17 blade bound/ kensi magus. starting at lv 1 would be kinda hard, but starting at, lets say, 17 can be extremely powerful. not having to purchase weapons or armor leaves u open to wonderous items :)

It's not so much the combat potential but the versatility and high level mage options that appeal to me. Things like creating your own pocket paradise or becoming immortal for instance which is why I normally play a straight mage. However that's a topic for another thread.

Well tossing aside time I'm a fan of the Kitsune fighter/mage/rogue while getting to level 20 in all those classes will not happen in 90% of games its a dream I hold dear. Best I can probably get is a wizard/rogue gestalt since will magus/rogue gives better fighting ability it costs too much in the spell, no pocket plane and a restricted spell list

TriOmegaZero wrote:

Finn Kveldulfr wrote:

{i]If[/i] you're in range-- using 'detect magic' and finding out that everything you're looking at is magic-- ought to be enough of a clue that a will save vs. illusions is justified (IMO).

Precisely why illusions mask their auras in my game. ;)

Heh. Help out the poor illusionist by keeping other mages from nerfing him with a first-level spell... good thought, I may steal that sometime. :)

on the other hand, casting a detect magic on the area including the illusion, ought to count as sufficient interaction (at least with the masking of the aura) to merit a will save vs that part of the illusion... shouldn't totally nerf the other casters either.... :P

Not in my game (I use the same trick for more experienced casters) afterall if you see that frog on a log is still a frog on a log with no magical aura you have no reason for a will save. On the other hand I tend to count seeing/hearing/smelling/etc the illusion as interracting with it so I ask my players to make their will saves as soon as they legitimately would have noticed the illusion in the first place. That is . . .

Your walking through the forest seeking the lost treasure of Urkuk around you stretch tall tree's echoing with the haunting calls of stranger birds . . . make a will save.

Fail, nothing mentioned.

Succeed, as you look around a strange shimmer attracts your attention to a broken fountain lying partially covered by overgrown shrubbery.

I avoid the metagaming problem by occasionally asking for Random spot checks and saves. A fact I always inform my players I'll be doing before I start a campaign so they know that just because I ask for a perception check or a will save it doesn't mean there's actually something to perceive or resist. Of course it doesn't mean it there isn't either although it might just be a really nice bird for that wizard with a hobby in ornithology.

You know that could be the focus of an entire campaign. The time loop is really long maybe even a couple of millenia BUT its reaching the end and in a month/year/time period of choice it'll loop back to the begining. The only one who know's is a poor old half mad person who is inextricably linked with it. They've been trying to stop it for the past 60 loops but because of their tie to the cause they literaly can't do it so they enlist help. Enter the PC's who must stop the loop before it resets again, wiping their memories and causing the bad ending for the campaign.

Tallifer wrote:

CommandoDude wrote:

Am I the only person who completely disagrees with the DM?

HOW are the actions of the party "evil"? These characters are Lawful Good/Good, not Lawful Stupid/Stupid Good. Why would they try to save the children if they didn't believe they had a chance/thought something EVEN WORSE was going to happen if they played along? The LE wizard sounds pretty dangerous.

But "evil"? These people weren't out to maliciously obliterate those kids, nor did they do it on a whim from their perspective. If you didn't give them an apparent out, you've only got yourself to blame if the party takes a drastic third option.

Commando Dude, I hope you are indeed the only person here who thinks that deliberately targetting the bridge full of children with area-effect spells does not equate deliberately killing the children.

They could at least have sniped at the enemies with individual missiles and spells. Their foes might have started killing the children, and that should have stopped the fight. But if the children did die at the hands of the evil enemies, then at least the party would be less directly guilty. Besides there must have been spells available that would hinder the enemies.

In this case. It's called "Collateral damage". You'll find many fictional works where innocents may be caught in a strike against the bad guy. Hero's and authority figures regret the loss their lives as "necessary casualties" in stopping a greater evil.

Hell, off the top of my head, in WH40k it's apparently common to just write off entire worlds that have been invaded by chaos demons and just nuke everything from orbit just to be sure.

Maybe their most powerful spells were AoEs and they wanted to be absolutely sure the evil wizard died so no OTHER children could get killed.

It's not possible for me to make an accurate judgement since I don't know the details. But you can't just brand some character "Evil" because they made a callous choice you personally don't agree with.

...

A few things to bear in mind . . .

1) This isn't 40k.
2) They were specifically tasked in this situation with saving the children as one at least was related to the nobles of their empire and not just taking out Paegin.
3) The spell they used (from what we've seen posted) was (a) deliberately placed ON the children not on Paegin or the devils and (b) was almost guaranteed to kill the children while doing minimal damage to the surrounding enemies.
4) They'd already defeated this particular villain at least once in the campaign.

So effectively they did maliciously target the kids against orders while intending to do minimum damage against the villain they already knew they could beat when they were tasked with rescuing them.

Tarantula wrote:

Dekalinder wrote:

Under Knowledge Arcana. In particular, the "Identify a spell effect that is in place" bit. CD 20 + spell level. Being an illusion doesn't mean being foul prof for someone versed in the arts of the arcana.

And how does the character know to try making a knowledge arcana check if they don't know it is an illusion? If they first interacted with the illusion, then passed their will check, they would know that it was an illusion. Someone could then use knowledge(arcana) to determine exactly what spell it is that is creating the illusion.

Just because you have knowledge arcana does not let you automatically gloss past any and all illusions.

Lol? do you get what are you saying? that you should already know something to get a knowledge check to know that?

I'll try to be clear. Knowledge check do not require action, they are a mere refraction of what a character is able to recall or deduce from his knowledge. In this case works pretty straightforward: you are good and knowledgable enaugh in the arcane arts taht you distinguish some strange characteristic from the image that betray them as illusion.
It work by RAW, and it makes perfect sense by RAI.
And I agree that

Tarantula wrote:

Just because you have knowledge arcana does not let you automatically gloss past any and all illusions.

.Is not automatic. It does require a DC 20-29 to know it.

Except that its a knowledge check to identify a particular spell/spell effect AFTER other things tell you its not real, not a get out if illusions free card. If other checks/events tell you its an illusion a knwledge check will tell you what kind. If you don't know its an illusion a knowledge check will tell you that it's a fox sunning itself on a rock.

Ravingdork wrote:

Where in the rules does it say they would get such a check? It is my understanding that the only thing they would ever get is a Will save to disbelieve, and even then, only if they interact with it in some fashion (which in my games takes action expenditure of some kind).

I have not deprived them of anything, and I resent the accusation.

Under Knowledge Arcana. In particular, the "Identify a spell effect that is in place" bit. CD 20 + spell level. Being an illusion doesn't mean being foul prof for someone versed in the arts of the arcana.

There's a difference between identifying something you know us magical e.g a floating light, magic mouth or invisible wall and instantly knowing that man fishing isn't real though. Personally I'd only allow the arcana skill if they already knew it wasn't real e.g all the troops are moving the same way, a woman's hair not moving in the wind or the like.

That is there's a gate in front of me however my perception check notices a tree branch sticking through it and using arcana/spellcraft I determine its a low level illusion. If I fail my perception or its a better illusion having spellcraft/arcana of 20+ does me no good as I'm not aware there's an existing spell effect to identify

even though you said you don't want the groundhogday, I would suggest just that, they have to really hurry to find the thing that stops the infernal circle.

If you really want some "creepy" in there, start the day as any other, thus covering the fact that it's the very same and give them some cumulative penalty for every day in the time loop.
Perhaps Wisdom damage, perhaps ghosts turn up, more and more every "day", everything turns more nightmareish until they wake up in a zombie filled town from hell ruled by a demon lord, if they aren't fast enough. The demon lord could for example hold the obvious key that loops time.

I like the idea that each time the PCs relive the day it gets creepier and more nightmarish as they rush to stop it relying on a garbled message from an outsude source. Succeed and you break the loop, fail and some ancient horror is unleashes. I may have to use this.

shallowsoul wrote:

...

not unless they invented steelbracing and rebarring or structural cabling on a scale comparable to the 19th century. Actually patented in 1867.

Which requires a degree of industrialization in tool-making, steel-production and engineering with multiple engineering discoveries, knowledge of scientific chemistry and an industrial base not reached in the real world until the (later) 19th century. Even in a steampunk campaign ( or Eberron one) this would be "cutting edge" technology. Nevermind the massive and expensive maintenance such an engineering marvel requires ( while an arched roman bridge does not )...

Sorry, industrial history just happens to be my professional purview^^ It may look cool and inspiring as fantasy art, but it does not structurally work out unless "serious magic" is involved. Which sounds unlikely on a backwater forest-road.

Does that assesment allow for gnomish unventishness and dwarven engineering skills?

Well assuming you could get a hand inside in the first place it'd probably be a death sentence without magical protection. If the bubble effectively stops bloodflow you'd have the equivilent of a major clot. So while your body keeps trying to drive blood around there's nowhere for it to go until arteries/veins/organs rupture preventing oxygen flow and other vital things in the meantime. During which time you would be unable to move said hand unless you were willing/able to sever it outside the bubble creating its own set of problems.

Personally I've always been partial to the grimalkin but due to limited opportunities I usually just take a standard cat. I recently started pathfinder society and my first characters familiar is a cat. Well technically its a childhood friend (rogue) who picked the lock on the characters masters booze supply with the result all four involved found out something they shouldn't and wound up transformed in various ways but that's another story.

I don't know enough about Paegin, but I assume as a BBEG, he's doing pretty nasty things, probably things that involve the destruction of whatever nearby village and even more dead children. Just attacking Paegin and his Gnolls while they were vulnerable with the knowledge that the kids were in trouble was a perfectly reasonable response. Perhaps not the best response depending on their spell array, but a perfectly reasonable, non-evil response.

The problem is from what we've been told that they didn't attack Paegin and his Gnolls with the kids as collateral damage, they attacked the kids using a spell that would almost certainly kill them while doing minimal damage to Paegin and the Gnoll's as collateral damage.

Were the children violated before they were killed? Because if it was just a straight kill, nobody should complain. I mean, killing children, what's wrong with that? You walk up, snap the neck and walk away. Hardly anything evil or morally questionable here. Hey, why is everybody looking at me that way?

Well the spell chosen WAS black tentacles so I'd say yes they were violated.

Question, if the kids can see the party why exactly can't the party see the kids? For that matter why can't the party hear their whimpering and muffled cries? Seeing as you arbitrarily added them to the surroundings and now want to punish them for their heinous "crimes" you may as well give them all a perception check to have noticed the falsity of the situation by noticing the true kids and therefore be off the hook scott free.

The kids were on the bridge and seen by the party till they did things with tentacles and the DM retconned them into the safety of the woods.

So how does the Blood War work?

They all just go there for the giggles?

I mean you got armies of millions of devils and demons battling each other. And nobody ever drops because nobody can wound anyone?
That "ZOMG THEY HAZ TO BE TRICKY" approach is all nice and sound if you see outsiders that way. But especially Demons kill each other more than regularly. Its part of their evolutionary process to have open struggles within their race. And you really can't tell me that every Babau out there runs around with Potions of Bless Weapon just to be able to assassinate other Demons. Thats dumb.

A few things to bear in mind

1) The average forces in the blood war are going to have DR 5 which isn't that hard to overcome particularly since most warrior demons/devils are able to do more than that in damage.

2) From what I recall most demons/devils are DR/X vs good OR silver/cold iron (depending on which one you have) so your average quasit with a silver dagger could hurt a horned or beared devil. It'd be stomped into the ground immediately afterwards but it could hurt them.

3) You also have various spells and spell like abilities that could bypass the DR that different demons and devils have access too.

4) Similarly you have siege weaponary and who know's what else being deployed onto the battlefield.

I figure your armies of hell/abyss (and can I just say none of the given demons/devils seem suitable for run of the mill troops their either non-combat, generals, elite troops, spies or some other specialized role) in the blood war are generally issued weapons treated either with cold iron or silver so they can harm their foes. A quasit does d3-1 with its claws or d4-1 with its bite. Not that threatening to a bearded devil but 20-30 quasits who've had their claws and fangs silvered either with actual/alchemical silver or spells? Now that's a different matter. If they are working for a Vrock that attacks with its claws 2d6 +5 they make a nice distraction while it hammers the bearded devil for 2d6 damage per attack. At which point a huge boulder slams down on the lot fired from a Trebuchet and dealing 6d6 damage to them all.

Consider the following scenario . . .

A demon patrol of 4 Vrocks runs into a devil squad of 10 horned devils.
The Vrocks have DR 10 Good and can do 2d6+5, 1d8+5 or 1d6+5 depending on their attack option.
The Devils have DR 5 good or silver and do 1d10+6+Infernal Wound or 1d6+4 depending on their attack option.

Whatever the Vrocks do they can injure the devils but the devils using their halberd will do damage reasonably often as well 2d6 vs 1d10-4. If the numbers are even the Vrocks win but if the horned devils have more numbers It could go either way and these are the closest I can find for the standard troops fighting in the bloodwar. If you've got the big guns Balors, Pit fiends etc involved the lower ranked creatures are going to get hammered big time.

I'm curious if there's something that's informing people's ideas of what real-world levels of capability different stats correspond to besides traditional ideas about what they mean that aren't mentioned in Pathfinder material and do a woefully poor job of matching the mechanics with fluff or a not-supported-anywhere desire for a 7 stat to be more punishing than the mechanics make it.

For me I use the Cthulu D20 tables as their idea of child equates fairly well to the mechanical stats for a child in D20 modern, DnD and presumably Pathfinder. There's a lot of usage of various monsters e.g. a 1 is a Shan (althoght they're also in dex with a 22/23) and a 44/45 is a Shoggoth but most stats have a benchmark for humanity . . .

Strength
Child: 4/5
Elderly Person: 6/7
Weak Person: 8/9
Average Person: 10/11
Fit Person: 12/13
Strong Person: 14/15
Weightlifter: 16/17
Olympic Athelete: 18

Dex
Klutz (or a child): 4/5
Clumsy Person: 6/7
Accident Prone Person: 8/9
Average Person: 10/11
Graceful Person: 12/13
Circus Acrobat: 16/17

Con
Bedridden or Dying Person: 1
Invalid: 2/3
Frail Person: 4/5
Puny Person: 6/7
Average Person: 10/11
Healthy Person: 12/13

Int
Minimum Human Intelligence: 3
Average Person: 10/11
Sharp Witted Person: 12/13
Clever Person: 14/15
Genius: 18/19

Wis
Foolhardy Investigator (I like this category): 6/7
Average Investigator: 10/11
Human Guru: 18/19

Cha
Shy or Unassuming Person: 8/9
Average Person: 10/11
Attractive Person: 12/13
Take Charge Type: 14/15
Natural Born Leader: 18/19

Read to kill a mocking bird (read so many books in high school I think this was the right one) for a good example, and for that matter an example of one somone might travel with such a person. Or for that matter the bad guy's in Dhampir by Barb and JC Hendee are also a good example of people who might have low scores in one stat and high in another.

EDIT
Of course if Simpsons and other TV show's have taught us anything children are more competant than adults and baby's are the most dangerous being on earth.

Seriously Homer might do well for an int/wis 7 character.

Nobody's saying "my 7 INT is just as good as your 15 INT". People - or at least one person, me - are saying that 7 int or cha is, while not the exact same as average, very close to average mechanically.

Pretty much the same, like I said I consider an int 7-9 being teenage level of intelligence. Talk to your average 13/14 year old and their quite capable of carrying on a conversation, planning out tactics etc. However your average (note I've known exceptions who went to uni at 14) teenager of that age IS going to have difficulty with advanced calculus or organizing an army and even training is only going to go so far to offset that. This is not to say they can't do it just that they'd find it difficult. For small unit tactics or discussions at a dark/medeval level they could probably do it. An int 4 or 5 is a different matter, watch kids playing they are using basic concepts but they wouldn't be able to handle the more complex concepts no matter how hard they try. Similarly a kid couldn't win a fight with an adult except through strategy, straight up they'd lose every time. Of course they are dealing with a 4/5 in EVERY stat not just one.

Do you consider females and males to be different creatures?

No I was just using that as a random example that in Pathfinder the stats are no variable dependant on species. A mosquito with str 16 is going to be stronge than man with str 10.

As I'm out of time I'll conclude by saying whoever corrected me on animals being an int of 3 you were right. I don't know where I remember that from but in pathfinder it has indeed been dropped to 1 or 2.

Additionally, ability scores mean different things to different creatures. A str 1 frog and a str 1 human (ability damaged) are not actually as strong as one-another. The human is still stronger (mostly due to size at this point). Likewise, an Intelligence 6 means something drastically different from Ettin to Ogre to White Dragons to Water Mephit (the latter actually being known as constant jokesters).

So a str 16 woman is weaker that a str 16 man?

@Christopher Rowe that situation happens a lot in tv shows where a person with major issues is deeply trusted by someone who's average or better.

Personally I've always felt children are in the 4 to 6 range and teenagers are 7 to 9. So that int 7 fighter would be comparabel to a 13 to 15 year old. Not bright for an adult but a long way from drooling, 3 is animal intelligence afterall and most of them don't droll on themselves.

Wax golem. Because I would make it look like myself, and depending on the GM that could mean I have an immortal spell immune version of myself walking around the world messing with people's stuff. Now if it ever found me, there would be problems.

So you'd be going with the sentient variant then?

Personally I've always thought it was part of the reason that the hells are so violent. Since a huge number of the denizens are evil and depending on location chaotic they enjoy fighting. Since they can usually hit equivilent CR critters with all their might and not hurt them it means they spend their time playing with actions most would consider homicidal. In wars they usually relly on the powerhouses to do enough damage to overcome the resistances of various enemies.

According to This site My stats are

NG Wizard

Str.8
Dex.13
Con.9
Int.17
Wis.13
Cha.11

I'd have switched the int and the dex, but *shrug*

Well I took the test and I too have my suspicions on the results . . .

Neutral Good Human Ranger/Sorcerer (2nd/3rd level)
Str: 15
Dex: 13
Con: 14
Int: 16
Wis: 11
Cha: 12

Personally given that this is an old DnD test I'd change the following.

Ranger/Sorcerer 2/3 to Magus 5 (mix of sword and magic as I travel seeking ancient knowledge, new lands, immortality and the spells to create my own plane). It not that different really it just didn't exist as a class for the test back then.

I'd proabably also drop the Neutral Good to Neutral since I suspect my alignment was misread due to the fact most of those morality questions involved friends/family. I'm not particularly good but I am loyal as in would I drop a lucrative job to help family? Yes in a heartbeat. Would I drop a lucrative job to help a friend? Probably, it'd depend how much they needed it and what the circumstance with the job were. Would I drop a lucrative job to help my home town? No and so on.

Finally with regards to ability scores I'd up int from 16 to 18 (+2 for pathfinder humans) and I need that for those high level spells. I'd probably also drop Str and Cha. I'm reasonably strong but not professional athlete strong and will I am disturbingly good at manipulating people when I want to I have huge problems in day to day social interactions for various reasons.

Oh and I'd switch human to Kitsune if possible but well that's again what those high level spells are for.

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Morain wrote:

I think it's overly restrictive, and you're trying to force your players to play the way you see as the best way.

Isn't...isn't that sort of what the GM is suposed to do? I mean, set a particular tone and theme for the game and then enforce it? If you're running a heroic game you don't allow CE PCs and all that jazz. Did I miss a memo where that's no longer true? Because I didn't think I had...

yup you must have missed that memo, it said something about the point of playing the game is for everyone to have fun, not just the gm.

What kind of foolishness is this? The only role of players is to dance to my tune as the useless meat puppets they are.

Chaos_Scion wrote:

I don't agree that most specialists tend to be flawed in some way and compensate in other ways...most people tend to be average which is 10-11 and have some advantages...If you were building yourself in a game would you give yourself negative stats or most of the people you know(probably not that many and if you did those probably aren't the people you would want to adventure with)

Actually, yes, yes I would. I statted myself out thread.

10-11 is the average. Doesn't mean everyone and their neighbor is nothing but strait 10s and 11s. In Pathfinder terms, we normal mortals are built using 3 point buy (it mentions this in the getting started section, and the premade arrays support this idea). That implies that to excel you have to be compensating for something. A guy with an 8 in one thing is going to have a 12 in something else. Almost nobody will have an 18 before racials, unless they are seriously lacking in at least 3 other departments.

Quote:

If I'm GMing a min/maxer they will have to role play every dump stat and I will insure it comes up. 7 int character playing like he's an average int or better person he is rolling dice to see if his char can actually come up with that. The low strength char is having all the encumbrances checked. A low cha guy is going to be put into situations where he has to interact with people. As long as they are playing their chars well we will get along fine and I will welcome any min/maxer into my game but you pay for what you get.

If you're not checking encumbrance for all characters, and only for low Str characters, then you're a bad GM. There, I said it. Bad GM. Either you are fair to everyone or you're not. Singling out one person at the table is a jerk move, and paints a big ugly picture on your GMing credentials. If you intentionally put your PCs into situations to spite them and their build, then I wouldn't want to...

I think I'm a 15 point buy, most people seem to think I'm stronger and smarter than normal, Dex is probably also quite good as without meaning to I keep scaring people by coming up behind them without them noticing me till I speak or they turn around, con and wis are average I think and charisma is probably lower than normal as I have average looks but major difficulty interacting socially. Hmmm maybe a 13/14, 10/11, 12/13, 13/14, 10/11, 8/9 on a str, con, Dex, int, wis, cha scale.

I'm just curious as to what those who'd want to craft a golem would choose out of the options available. I'm not talking about raw power here (if I were it'd obviously be the Adamantine or Paizo variants) but which of the many types out there appeals most to you on a flavour/appearance basis.

For me its the stained glass, ice and mithril variants. I just love the image of those I have in my mind. Glimmering silver, shimmering nearly transparent ice or a shifting kaleidascope of colours. The ice and mithril are largely equal in terms of appeal to me with the stained glass one being the clear leader. I'm a fan of the prismatic light series of spells as well I just love the way a rainbow of light/glass looks. If I picked the create golem feature for a wizrad (something I'm going to look into whether its pathfinder society legal) it'd be the stained glass variant. How about you, which golem is your favorite and why?

There is a series of rituals that can be used to become a demon.

For good parties, you could try to adapt the rituals to allow the PCs to try to become celestials.

Also along the ritual angle, you could have the party discover a reference to a ritual that grants immortality. First, they would have to track down a hidden library to find the requirements for the ritual. Then, they would have to track down assorted rare magical ingredients. Finally, they would have to actually preform the ritual and deal with all the attention it would bring. You could probably devote an entire campaign to becoming immortal if you really wanted to.

Make it clear that isn't going to be a lich or similar ritual to them if you go that route.

Personally I have nothing new to offer but immortality wise my favorites are the fountain of youth and wizard/alchemist discoveries (I'll have to look them up). If you have one of them have them discover the secret recipe of the sun orchid elixer or equivilent that they can share with their group, and potentially get assasins after them from the original discoverer.

If you don't have a set campaign planned out achieving immortality could be a fun series of adventures . . .

1) Rumours have arisen that someone stole the secret recipe for the Sun Orchid Elixer several groups are moving to aquire it, you are one of them. At low levels the reason there's no high level enemies is that they know the rumours are false, at high levels any low levels are mooks for the party to plow through to face the big foe. From the sewers of the city they finally retrieve not the recipe for Sun Orchid Elixer but a journal describing a fountain of eternal youth.

2) Venturing into the unexplored jungles of the south they travel to the destination fighting off various tribes, creatures and if possible a recurring enemy who wants immortality for himself.

3a) If your in a mood for commedy the fountain of youth turns the drinker into a young girl.

3b) If your not in a mood for commedy, or after a few PC's have been transformed they discover that there wasn't really a fountain of youth (a proper fountain of youth) HERE. However this is where the remains of an ancient expedition finally ran aground. However there is information that reveals the journal the party was following is just intended to bring you here as a test. The real threat is that the real fountain of youth was created by on of the ancient rune lords and lies on that continent (can't remember the name) where all those ships are wrecked.

4) Battling their way through the dangerous reefs and landmass the party eventually arrives at their destination the tower of a Rune Lord of Lust/Greed/Pride. They then have to fight their way through a number of themed dungeons where they find the fountain of youth, the real one. A drink from this stops their aging entirely rendering them immortal and servents of the Rune Lord. Of course since he's "dead" their just immortal.

EDIT
Oh and I'd be careful about giving access to that Eternal template as it prevents them EVER gaining any new skills or abilities, specifically stating even a wish/miracle can't overcome that drawback.