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Because if you want to get rid of something you need to know how it works.
Not really... You just have to make sure no one knows it and/or strongly discourage its research. Which is precisely what the Citadel does.
Now, I could see an argument for the Citadel knowing how magic works and trying to discourage it precisely because of how magic works (or at least, the magic they know of)...
But considering they spent nearly 300 years under Targaryen rule, and the value of Valyrian steel and much richer and more influential creating it would make the order, it's hard to imagine they never succumb to the temptation.
And what about the 260 years before that?
Luwin goes as far as to say that no one maester ever lit any of the candles or cast a spell. That Valyria was the last ember and Valyria is gone.
He believed vehemently that magic was gone. We, readers, know that has never been the case. Magic was greatly weakened in Westeros, but never gone. And even so... No maester succeeded in lighting the candles. Not even the ones with a valyrian steel link in their chains.
I don't know why you're taking the fact the th Citadel despises magic as evidence that they know how to use magic... It doesn't make any sense. If anything, their disdain for magic should be evidence that they don't study magic.
Please, don't take levels in the Assassin class...
That class is made of misery and pain! Taking levels in Assassin is shooting your own feet... With a freaking rocket launcher!
Okay... That's a bit of hyperbole...
But it's a terrible, terrible class. All it gives you is the word "Assassin" written on your character sheet and a bunch of neigh useless abilities that will either never be used or never make any real difference. -.-'
Assassins make Rogues look a powergamer's wet dream!
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Ask your GM to allow you to take the Sanctified Slayer archetype... It gives you the "Assassin" vibe without crippling your character. It's also easier to play, IMO, so a good pick for new players...
(I'd also ask to switch my stats around a bit, having a 14 in your attack is... Painful, to say the least).
((Note: further research shows that Luwin did have a VS link too. Extend that last analysis to him and Aemon))
And neither of them were able to cast spells (Luwin says so himself... In fact he goes as far as to say that every other maester who studied magic failed to produce any spells). More likely, the Citadel has access to a quantity of valyrian steel and is able to reforge it into different things (we know this is possible through mundane means, as it was done by a very non-magic smith in King's Landing).
1- The direwolve being covered in blood is not magic. The death of their mother was an omen, as a stag (Baratheon sigil) caused the death of the Dire Wolk (Stark sigil) but died anyway.
2- Bran didn't "sacrifice his body" to become a god. His comatose did facilitate the three-eyed crow's contact, but his fall wasn't part of a ritual.
3- We don't know if Melisandre's curses are actually responsible for the death of the three kings.
4- In the books, we don't know how the White Walkers were created... Or even if they were created. Book WW are quite different from TV WW.
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Now, maybe the Citadel does hold the secret to the creation of valyrian steel (I wouldn't discard the possibility). But so far, there's little, if any, evidence of that. As far as we know, no one produced valyrian steel since the Doom of Valyria, causing its price to sky-rocket. It's hard to believe the Citadel wouldn't ever try to benefit from that in over 300 years if they knew how to create it.
Marwyn's words are intriguing... But also unsubstantiated (so far). This is a series where we must take everything everyone says witha grain of salt. Characters not only lie, misjudge and make mistakes, but also misremember. Even PoV characters!
Hell! Sansa "remembers" beings kissed by The Hound... And that never happened!
Marwyn would have no reason or need to make a lie that specific. He could have just said "I'm a Grand maester, we want to know what the BLEEEP is happening up at the wall."
Maybe he says it to make Sam tell him everything he knows about Aemon and Daenerys... Or to make sure Sam doesn't trust the other grandmaesters (they don't like Marwyn).
So far, no one else ever said anything even close to "the maesters killed the dragons". And even PoV characters lie and make mistake... There's no reason to think Marwyn is anymore unbiased or trustworthy than the citadel.
There is SOMETHING going on there important enough to send a faceless man to kill a pig farmer to gain a key.
And you're jumping to the conclusion that it's valyrian steel. That's far from the only possibility of valuable knowledge that a faceless man would be seeking... In fact, maybe that faceless man is aiming to kill someone, rather than steal something... We don't know.
Now... Maybe they do know how to create valyrian steel... And maybe they are indeed responsible for the extinction of dragons. But so far, we have no evidence for the former claim and very little for the latter.
I hadn't heard that before...interesting.
We don't know if that's actually the case. That's just something Marwyn told Sam... So far, we have no idea how true that claim is.
There's probably a bit of truth in it, but I doubt it's the whole truth... I'm guessing they intentionally sabotaged the hatching of the last dragon eggs.
Still, I don't see how that points to the Citadel knowing to create valyrian steel. Even people from Asshai-by-the-Shadow don't have that knowledge (as far as we know)... And they freely and openly practice sorcery there, with much of it being based on fire and blood, just like Valyria.
Assuming that's actually the case, of course, and not just something Marwyn (Mawryn? Merwyn? I'm going with Marwyn...) said to convince Sam to follow his instructions... It's not like he has a very high opinion of the other grand-maesters either... It's not so much a conspiracy as much as open disdain. Most dragons died fighting other dragons during the Dance of Dragons... Others died at the hands of an angry mob during the storming of the dragonpit. So far, Marwyn is the only person to even hint that maesters were responsible for their extinction.
And that is not an evidence that they know how to forge valyrian steel... It's an evidence that they don't like/trust magic... If anything, it's yet another reason to not study the creation of valyrian steel.
Qyburn was stripped of his chains (not killed) for practices such as vivisection... Meanwhile, Marwyn is a grandmaester. And Maester Luwin completed his studies in magic and went undisturbed.
Now... It's true that most maesters look down on the study of magic, but they don't forbid it.
In fact, they even have an Archmaester devoted to the subject. Currently the position is occupied by... Merwyn? Marwyn? Some name like that...
Besides... If they could forge valyrian steel, they'd become far more powerful and influential than they already are... So why not do it?
They actually do allow maesters to study magic (represented by a valyrian steel link in their chain)... The Stark's maester did it.
They just think it's a fool's errand, since magic is unreliable and has been "dead" in Westeros for decades. Either way.. So far we have literally zero evidence that anyone knows how to create valyrian steel... closest we get are some smiths who claim to be able to do it.
It's possible GRRM will reveal this to be the case, but so far... No evidence.
They no doubt do but suppress it.
No doubt? There's no evidence that anyone can create Valyrian steel. As far as we know, it's a lost craft.
The studying of magic ends with someone put in a room with a candle and told to light it with magic. No one has done it, or no one we know of. I suspect if someone does light with magic, they are killed.
Actually... No. That "say in a dark room trying to light candles that never light up" is a standard test for all maesters. Even those who don't study any mystical arts.
Valyrian steel wouldn't be called valyrian steel if others could do it. Most of the knowledge and technology of Valyria was completely lost when the Doom came.
In the books there are blacksmiths from... Ib (?) (I don't remember where) Who claim to be able to recreate valyrian steel... And that's it.
You realize your lying right? Many people agree objectively on moral right and wrong. Sure you can find some minor variances across the billions who worship God. But my boyfriend believes as I do and many people have identical views as other people. This lie is so easy to expose it's shameful.
Yeah... I'm sure you agree a 100% on every moral issue. Every. Single. One.
Forgive me if I don't believe you...
Besides, even if you do agree on everything... that doesn't prove anything. You and him can both believe vehemently that blue is the most beautiful color ever... That doesn't mean blue is, in fact, objectively more beautiful than every other color.
And YES there is one moral right and wrong. Just because people get some small parts wrong (myself included on occasion) doesn't change that fact.
How exactly do you know that there's an "objective morality that people sometimes get wrong" instead of simply "people with differing morals"?
Let me guess... There's a set of morals that you see as "obviously" correct, and... That's it, really. I really doubt you have any scientific method for defining what morals are "objectively correct".
Now, you're free to think you're right and everyone else is wrong... I'm free to say that's what pretty much everyone in the history of ever always thinks.
How about "Join my army and shoot arrows/bolts of dragon glass at the white walkers from a safe distance".
Wights can be killed with fire... And as far as we know, they aren't particularly vulnerable to valyrian steel. The knowledge of how to create valyrian steel has been lost for ages... Sam is smart, but he isn't that smart.
Besides, if history teaches us that how costly the production of an weapon is matters much more than how effective it is. There's no guarantee that they'll be ever be able to create valyrian steel again... But they have tons of obsidian in Dragonstone.
I don't think humanity has alignments, but I think it's justification to say there's no such thing as an objective morality. Subjective morality is the great excuse of people who do evil but aren't willing to simply admit it.
Objective morality is a much greater excuse. Everyone who defends it "coincidentally" thinks their morality is the objectively correct one... And yet, no two people agree completely on what is morally right or wrong. Right now, even people who share the same religion, political views, nationality and social background disagree on what is good and what's evil.
If there's any objective morality in the real world, so far humans haven't agreed on it... Or even been able to demonstrate it actually exists.
So... Subjective it is.
I really think his (sams) entire arc for the citadel is to discover how to cast the spells to forge new valyrian steel. There will soon be 3 dragons in westeros for part of the magic, and gendry who's boat rowing skills are only matched by his apprenticeship to one of three living smiths able to work existing valyrian. When team ice and team fire finally join up in final act, they'll be churning out dragonsteel blades for the battle for dawn.
I don't think the Citadel has that knowledge... Otherwise they'd be using it. Besides... It's much easier and faster to make weapons and ammo of "dragon glass".
And if you zoom even more, it's back to grey, as you can never know every consequence of an act. Butterfly effect and all that...
Besides, unlike D&D we don't have objective morality. Ask a thousand people what "Good" and "Evil" are and you'll have a thousand different answers. And who's to tell who's right?
Not only that, but even if you're right, there are waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too many variables to be considered. And no vague, simplistic question can account for them all. And morals aren't the only thing that guide our decisions, not even our decisions about morals. Our knowledge of the situation, our patience, our past experiences, our resources, our feelings... All of that and more play a role in every decision we make, and any one who denies it is either a fool or a liar.
Finally, no single decision can determine your morals. It's arrogant and foolish to presume you can tell someone's "alignment" based on their reply to a single question.
Well... Unless she spent some time doing extra practice after the whole "I'm Arya Stark of Winterfel" speech, she can't transform without a mask (or she'd have done it when running from the waif).
IMO, she either learned how to make a face mask or simply took a face when she left... After all, Jaqen didn't search her... Nor did he seem bothered by her leaving.
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Unrelated, but since it takes years to become a maester, I'm guessing Sam will have his training interrupted for some reason... Possibly his father... Also, he'll have to learn morr and teach otherd about the WW.
Wasn't he on his way to the trial, though?
It irks me that the guy called "Big Norse Wolf" would misspell Jon's name. ><'
(And White Walkers are at least 8000 years old, IIRC).
I totally concur about Jon taking the Stark name. It's important to remember that Bran is the only one who knows the truth, and he'll start ranting about the King of the Night and the Three Eyed Raven way before he even gets to warging into trees.
Well... There's also Howland Reed... Supposedly, he's still alive in the show. Hearing about Jon Snow becoming the King in the North might convince him to finally show up and possibly reveal the truth... I just don't know who he'd reveal it to.
Though, now that you mention it, I suppose Jon is the legitimate heir to the Iron Throne. Well, illegitimate heir, maybe, but direct inheritor. Hmmm.
If Rhaegar and Lyanna didn't get married, he's not a heir, since bastards don't inherit anything... But I think Rhaegar meant to marry Lyanna (he was expecting to win the war, after all, and considering all the trouble the Blackfire Pretenders caused, I don't think he'd want a bastard).
Hmmm... Now that I think about it, the Martells might actually survive if one of Oberyn's bastards takes the name and/or gives it to their son. Dorne doesn't require a male heir to rule/inherit the name (Doran, Oberyn and Elia were Martell from their mother's side). And kings/queens can "remove the taint of bastardom", so Daenerys could save the Martell name.
Baratheons are gone, though... Well, their genes do live in a few bastards here and there. ><'
Stark: Bran won't ever lay claim and the heir (Rickon) just got an arrow. Sansa Lannister Bolton just lost her claim to a Snow.
In any case, the Stark name would be gone next generation, unless she convinces whoever marries her to let her give her last name to their sons.
Targaryen: Dany maintains a lady's claim by force of arms. Jon is not legitimate.
Actually... We don't know that. Lyanna was gone for over an year. More than enough time to get married (forcibly or not. We don't know the precise nature of her relationship with Rhaegar). Of course, if that's the case... He's a Targaryen, not a Stark, and therefore the Stark name is gone anyway, unless Bran decides to go back... Or at least have a son and leave him in Winterfel. :P
If the nature of Jon's birth are ever revealed, I predict Jon would rather keep the Stark name and let Daenery's sit in the Iron Throne... They even have a couple commons friend to intermediate the deal. And Jon does have the approval of Jorah's family, if that means anything...
EDIT: While no one who heard it survived to tell the tale, Jon was legitimized as a true Stark by Robb shortly before the Red Wedding.
Yeah, in the books, Loras has two older brothers... One of which is also in the King's guard... And seemingly much humbler and wiser than Loras (he's one of the few characters to recognize Tyrion's brilliance), and at least as good in combat.
In the show, Loras is the only male child, IIRC. That's why Oleanna backed down when Tywin threatened to constript Loras into the King's Guard.
I know the events don't occur simultaneously or even necessarily in the order shown... I don't particulay care about the teleporter... I just find it funny.
When a character appears in completely different regions of the world with little to no indication that any time is past... It looks odd and funny. It's not a plot hole, but it's not great film-making either.
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In the books, Cersei is prophecised to die strangled by the "valonquar", but that part of thd prophecy didn't actually make it into the show... IIRC, here Maggy only reveals the parg about Cersei wedding a king and having 3 children who she'll see dying.
I still think Jaime is going to kill her, though... She was indirectly responsible for the deaths of nearly every dead Lannister, after all...
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How many great houses are left, BTW? Tyrells have no heir... Martells are all dead. Same goes for the Baratheons... Starks are on the brink of extinction, since (as far as everyone in Westeros knows) their only living male heir is a bastard). The Arrys have a sickly boy who probably won't see the end of winter... The Lannister have a kinslayer and a member of the kingsguard (who can't marry or have children). Even thr Targsryens have no male heir (as far as anyone knows).
I wonder what would happen if/when people learn of Jon's true parentage.
Westeros is running out of high lords. :P
I can f@!@ing guarantee that every military force in the world has specific training to be particularly effective against whatever enemy they're currently fighting or who they fight most often.
Hell! Professional athletes and trainers will often review and analyze footage of their next opponent... Do you think that's because they are racist against their adversary?
You're choosing a role play flavor of your own and claiming it to be the standard and/or official flavor of the class, despite the fact that nothing in the game says that's the case. That's narrow-minded and dishonest.
Congratulations, then, Aranna. You alone solved every question about morality! Something no one else in the history of humanity could accomplish...
It was all in a very vague question about a job interview... How come no philosopher ever think of that? There's nothing overly simplistic or condescending about it... Nope. It can all be solved by a simple, extremely vague question...
I don't think there's any one single question that can pinpoint your "alignment". Certainly not one as vague as the one presented.
What kind of trouble is that person in? Why is she in that trouble? Can I actually help them? Could I make things worse? Am I unemployed or just looking for higher pay? Do I have any other sources of income? Do I have a family to support?
Life is not black and white.
There were multiple examples of clerics being awesome at pretty much any given role without anything but their spells and a few gold coins...
You ignored all of them, downplayed the effectiveness of several powerful options, raised the definition of tier 1 to impossible standards and used quite inconsistent arguments...
That's arguing in bad faith in my book.
True. Clerics don't need to do it to be awesome, though...
They can use their summons, planar allies, undead minions and buffs to fulfill the frontliner role... While still being capable healers, scouts, buffers and utility casters.
Then they can buy a Guided weapon and make themselves great combatants even though they invested all their resources in Wisdom.
They can't be good at everything at the same time, but they can be good at anything they want. All they need is a not-completely-idiotic selection of prepared spells... And that's really easy to get.
And as we know... All encounters are composed of a single big creature... None of them are made of 3+ creatures, right?
You're intentionally raising the definition of tier 1 to impossibly high standards, downplaying the effectiveness of Cleric's spells, using inconsistent arguments and ignoring the answers to those arguments.
I'm sorry, Sissyl, I usually enjoy your posts, even when we disagree... But I think you're arguing in bad faith in this thread.