I'm always eager to level up 'til my build is "complete"... Usually about 5~7th level... Then I still enjoy leveling up, but I'm no hurry... There is a nice middle ground between "spend years at 12th level" and "20th level in 3 weeks!".
As long as my character can do what I want her to do, then I'm fine. Althoguh getting new abilities is always awesome, fo course!
I also enjoy creating characters builds, so I tend to plan my characters ahead of time, at the very least up to the point where their build is "complete".
Kinda funny, though... I usually create my builds as broken and OP as possible, but then, I tone it down as I play (e.g.: Playing a Sorcerer, I decided middle campaign to grab Skill Focus: Bluff instead of Toughness or Great Fortitude).
That's how I find it easier to make useful characters, feed my inner munchkin without creating an abomination who overshadows the characters of players who don't want optimize or can't do it very well:
1- Have an idea for an interesting character.
2- Design it as powerful as possible
3- During gameplay, occasionaly ignore the plan in favor of something more flavorful.
4- Have fun.
Between creating an absurdly powerful build and then not following it to the letter, I end up with a very useful character who doesn't make my GM throw books at me...
How closely I stick to the original plan for the build depends on the party's average level of optimization and campaign difficulty...
Cavaliers are boring: Are you kidding? Order of the Cockatrice alone is role playing gold...
You don't need a Cavalier class to role play a Knight. you can always give your character whatever personality/background you want. You can make a "Knight of the Order of the Cockatrice" character with a Ranger.
Classes are just mechanics. Fluff is what you make of it. And IMO, Cavalier's mechanics are boring, restrictive and weak.
I don't hate Cavaliers, I just don't care about them. They are extremely boring, IMO.
Cavalier is the one class I've never had any sort of interest in.
I have HeroLab, and I love building characters. That means I create a great variety of builds just to entertain myself for a few minutes. I have dozens of builds for every class, and yet, I couldn't bother to make more than a single Cavalier build... Because Cavaliers are just that bland...
Their fluff is okay, but many other classes can do it much better and their mechanics are underwhelming at best...
Whenever I think about making a Cavalier, I build a Ranger instead. Or a Paladin. Or a Barbarian. Or a Fighter who uses Leadership to get a mount.
I had no idea that silversheen was a weapon property as well as an alchemical substance. That's a great suggestion!
Yeah, you can make weapon out of it, like Cold Iron, Adamantine, etc... They're really cep too (+400gp is basically free beyond 2nd level). I love this stuff. I tend to have nearly all of my weapon made of it because... Why the hell not? Immunity to rust may never come in play, but if does, chances are it'll save your life!
Blueluck wrote:
I have Improved Unarmed Combat for bludgeoning/finesse damage. Since a cestus does piercing as well, and can be easily enchanted to +1, it does seem like a pretty good backup weapon.
Ah, I see... I missed the IUS in your statblock. Well, cestus are cheaper to enchant, can be made of different materials (such as silversheen ^^), have better crit range and base damage die, can deal piercing damage, can' be disarmed and they save you a feat.
It's like IUS... But better! Much, much better!
Oh, and buy a couple weapon cords to make it so it's even harder to disarm you! We, actually they just make it easier for ou o retrieve a disarmed weapon, but that's basically the same....
Seems like a good build for me, bu you should carry at least 1 backup scimitar. Dervish Dance makes you even more dependent of a single weapon, so you don't want to have only one.
Also, make your main Scimitar a Silversheen one. It costs only 400gp more and not only it gets to bypass DR, but it's also completely immune to all rusting effects.
You don't want a Rust Monsters to kill your character's effectiveness, right?
And a blundgeoning weapon would be nice too. You never know when you'll find somthing with DR 10/blundgeoning. I recomend a cestus... It's Finesseable and you can "wield" it and still have a free hand.
Wraith, how should we "calculate" Initiative reroll mechanics?
I was bulding an Oracle of Battle yesterday just to see how it would fare without his spells... Turns out he has the slightly higher DPR and slightly lower AC.
Sure, he's using a Greatsword, but unlike most Monks here so far, he isn't extremely optimized for damage. Most of his feats are not related to damage.
So, what are the requirement to run a character through the encounters?
Create a 10th level character, preferably a Monk or Monk-flavored build, then run it against the enemies wraithstrike posted. (you can post your build here or in any other thread, in which case, just provide a link to it)
- Your opponent is as intelligent as its stat block says. It will use every resource it has.
- Each fight happens 10~30min after the last one. (This means some buffs can possibly last 2~3 fights)
- Your character fights alone, although a party may be assumed in critical cases (e.g.: I assumed the party wizard casts Glitterdust or some such on the witchfire because otherwise, it'll simply use his at-will invisibility to hit-and-run and eventually kill our martial builds)
- Your character is fully healed after each fight, then we compare which resources she costs to your party. (This is made easier if you post his remaining hp after the fight - e.g.: 36,3 hp left out of 78)
- Since we're using average DPR to calculate damage, assume hit points can use fractions. (e.g.: "I have 34.6 hp left")
- Unlike the build thread, these characters don't seem too worried about surviving 'til 10th level, so it doesn't really matter if your character will be really weak at 4th level, but you must be able grow your build "organically" (i.e.: level by level). Don't use your 10th level BAB/skills/attributes to see if you qualify for your 1st level feats.
- Don't feel bad if the Witchfire kills your character. That thing screwed all of us so far... -.-'
At least, this is what seems to be the ruleset we're using so far...
Feel free to run your characters through the encounters, prototype.
Also, you reminded me that I have a 10th level Aasimar Champion of Irori build posted in my build thread... I should check it and see if it would make a good contender here.
It is a hard solo, but not hard for a 4 person party. Each time it attacks, you then have a full round of attacks on it, in trade for one attack that isn't going to drop an equal level enemy, or even put them at real risk.
Sure, but we're not comparing different 4-person parties. That makes the Witchfire considerably powerful.
I wonder how hard the Bebilith will be... I think I'll post the encounter simulation later...
Our heroes kill the croc and move on. They come across what appears to be an abandoned small town. However they are not alone. It seems they have angered someone, and a rather nasty outside has been sent to deal with them.
We will assume the buildings are large enough to use as cover for this monster.
** spoiler omitted **...
Question:
Is it already there, guarding the place? Or was it summoned just as the heroes set foot on the town, appearing right in front of them?
Can I assume PCs can use stealth to approach it (let's say... get as close as 30ft away from it, since getting into melee range without being seen is nearly impossible without invisibility)? Most characters would be suspicious of abandoned towns in the middle of the swamp, and any sneaky character with a decent stealth score and half a brain would probably be smart enough to scout ahead or at least walk as quietly as possible.
Oh, BTW, guys, I have an idea for "calculating" how SoL spells effect each encounter.
We see the chance each build has of making a save. Divide it by 2. Then take the number we found and divide again by 5 (because each die roll is a 5% chance). That's the number of rounds each character can fight without failing that save, but Monk suffers the full effects at 9th round.
e.g.:
Let's say Monk has an 80% chance to a save against Dominate Person. 80/2 = 40, and 40/5= 8. That Monk can fight 8 rounds without being dominated.
Now, a imagine a Fighter who has a 30% of making that same save. 30/2 = 15, and 15/5 = 3. That Fighter can fight only 3 rounds without being dominated.
To make it easier, just divide your chance of making the save by 10.
This gives a solid advantage to Characters with good saves, as they have more time to kill their target, as it should be. A good initiative may give you an extra round (if the Fighter can act before the caster in the 9th round, he may kill the caster before being dominated). For blasting spells/effects, we should simply keep using average damage, though, as they usually deal damage anyway.
I'm not sure how good or precise is this system... I didn't put much thought into it, but it seems okay to me.
The benefit of animal companions? He dies and gives you 3 rounds to RUN AWAY with. They are free to get a new one (takes 24 hours).
Yeah, but then you lost a Class Feature for one whole day... And whatever gear it had equipped may be lost forever, digested/destroyed/stolen by whatever killed the critter.
Tarantula wrote:
I think the witchfire is designed for the PCs to hear about, investigate, prepare, and go in wizard blazing. Definitely a martial killer.
Yup, a tough fight for any martial or unprepared caster.
Tarantula wrote:
I like the idea of a mini-adventure. I'm also planning to stat out a medium sized companion (to avoid issues of dungeons/smaller areas) and see how the damage compares.
A Large creature is not too problematic, IME. It's only a real issue if it grows bigger than that.
I wanted to do Ccompanion+A buff or two vs the monk. The druid has plenty of other things he could do, but isn't. Still loses to the witch though.
Makes sense, although most buffs used on animal companions could also be used on other PCs (especially Monks).
But I think a couple buffs might be fair game, considering Animal Companions have no WBL of their own. It's reasonable to assume that 10min/level buffs will be active in ares the PCs know are dangerous.
We are assuming each encounter happens something like 15~30 minutes after the last one. We can consider our hp is restored as much as we want (usually to full health, but characters with lots of hp, such as Barbarians, might be okay with having less), then we can compare what each character cost to their party and/or herself.
Every spell used to heal you is a spell the Cleric could have made better use of. Every charge of wands of CLW spent on you is gold/magic not spent in any other way.
So far, every build cost their party a resurrection. But that's assuming they are fighting alone, in which case, there is no party to bring them back. -.-'.
I made a token party so we can have an idea of how an average party could help...
I think we should have a "mini-adventure"... Like we are looking for a lost artifact that is inside a ancient temple in the middle of whatever swamp our builds are going through right now.
Okay, let's se... Dire Croc is a easy fight for most martials... It's big, stupid and has no supernatural abilities. It does have terrain advantage, though... Remember: The Dire Croc is most likely partially submerged or close to a large lake/pond. This could be a problem.
Both Mork and 2HR can easily spot the beast, and even move unnoticed by it, but unless the rest of the party can do it too, they'll have to face the monster.
Since they can spot the Croc before it spots any of them, both Mork and 2HR will have Barkskin (and Longstrider, for 2HR) active before engaging the creature.
Mork:
Round 1 - Surprise round
Mork is in a pinch. He doesn't have any ranged weapon, so he tries to bait the Dire Croc away from its pond. The only way he can do it, though, is through looking delicious. If the Dire Croc goes after him, he spends 1 Ki to cast Barkskin on himself, if Coc doesn't chase him, though, moves away from its sight, then sneakly approaches it again, this time without being seen.
Mork then casts Scorching Ray on it (average damage: 29,3) from 50ft away, then goes back a 20~30ft, but he makes sure the Croc sees him casting the spell, so it will know who is responsible for its pain. It'll either attack or run away. If it runs away... Awesome, encounter is over.
If it attacks Mork, OTOH, the encounter goes on...
Round 2
Mork delays his turn, he'll act after Croc.
Croc charges Mork. It can only move 40ft, though, even with its 15ft reach, it still can attack Mork.
Mork moves in for an attack, that means he suffers an AoO... That's 24.8 damage, plus Grab (and he'll almost certainly succeed on its Grapple check) and swallow Mork whole. Well... That's bad... -.-'
Mork makes a single attack against the beast stomach. That's 23.3 damage to the beast, it's now at 85.4 hp.
Round 3
Croc doesn't have a target. It'll either go for another party member or return to its lair (which will take at least 1 full round). Let's hope Mork's friend can survive 1~2 rounds without him.
Mork is inside Croc's stomach. That means he takes 17.5 acid damage. His total hp is now 35.7. Mork proceeds to FoB the beast as hard as he can! Its stomach AC is 17. That means Mork deals 69.3 damage to the beast (I'm assuming the stomach is immune to Acid damage, otherwise, this DPR increases to 80.85.1).
Either way, Croc is seriously hurt (only 39.4 hp left, about 28% of its total hp). It's unlikely the other party members can't finish it off, but if that happens, the beast will almost certainly retreat to its lair... Mork takes yet another 17.5 Acid damage (only 18.2 hp left -.-'), but can definetely kill Croc (or knock it unconscious if he's feeling merciful), then free himself from its belly.
Terrain/reach advantage made this battle surprisingly harder than expected, but Mork did succeed... with very few hit points left...
2-Handed Ranger is has a much easier time... He can just use his longbow to kill it. 2HR makes a ranged full attack during the surprise round from as far as he can (DPR 38.12 - 27.6% of Crocs total hp). If that's less than 100ft away, then make a single attack and move away & stealth again. Repeat until it's dead (actualy, you don't even need stealth, it just makes your life a bit easier). With Longstrider (it lasts for 9h!), 2HR can move twice as fast as the beast, so if it couldn't reach 2HR in the first round, it won't be able to do it any time soon...
He can easily defeat the beast without spending any resource other than a few arrows... If it decides to spare the creature's life, just hit it until it's hurt enough to run away or be knocked unconscious in a single round.
My TWF Ranger with Cestus, Unarmed Ranger and MoMS Ranger would have very similar results to 2HR, the only real difference is how many rounds it would take to defeat Croc.
The Witchfire's attacks target touch AC. This means Spiney's AC against it is 10, not 28 (Barkskin doesn't affect touch AC). Also, you only stop being flat-footed once you act, and neither Gyr nor Spiney would be able to act during the surprise round, so they only stop being flat-footed and get to do something at 2nd round, after the Witchfire has acted. Oh, and Spiney acts earlier than Gyr, but we can assume it dealays its turn to get buffs.
I'd assume the creature can't go invisible for some reason, though, (maybe the Wizard cast Glitterdust on it). Otherwise, it can simply fire, go invisible, wait for the PCs to run out of buffs and repeat...
Also, you're effectively comparing the Druid vs Rangers/Monks, not just his animal companion. There is nothing wrong with that, but there's a reason we don't usually include full casters in these comparisons...
Cavalier/Samurai is the one class I don't care about. Any material made for them is just page filler for me. They are boring, pointless and, from whzt I have seen, considerably underpowered.
I love the concept of Fighters: the badass normal. The guy who prevails through discipline and bravery alone. But, as cool as its supposed concept is, its mechanics are terrible, and they end up having very few options. In combat, all they do is full-attack round after round, because other options become ineffective sooner or later, and out of combat... well, they just suck.
As as much as I love the idea behind the class, Fighters are too boring and too limited, IMO. So I won't e playing one of them without a few houserules...
Last but not least, Rogues. Like Fighters, they have a cool concept, but nothing unique and very few in-combat options. I'll play a Monk before I play a Rogue. Besides, they are too easily replaced and most of their Rogue Talents are either boring, ineffective or both.
Here is a Token Party for our Monks and Rangers. I don't think they are too optimized, but let me know if you disagree... IMO, the only "cheesy" trick I used was giving the Wizard a mithral buckler, and that was because I didn't know how to spend it's remaining cash.
Token Cleric:
Token Cleric
Male Dwarf Cleric 10
LN Medium Humanoid (dwarf)
Init +7; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +16
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Defense
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AC 25, touch 12, flat-footed 24 (+8 armor, +4 shield, +1 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection)
hp 78 (10d8+30)
Fort +13, Ref +7, Will +16; +1 trait bonus vs. spells, spell-like abilities, and poison, +2 vs. poison, spells, and spell-like abilities
Defensive Abilities aura of protection (10 rounds/day), defensive training; Resist acid 10, resistant touch (9/day)
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Offense
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Speed 20 ft.
Melee Heavy Shield Bash +8/+3 (1d4+4/x2) and
. . +1 Cold Iron Heavy mace +13/+8 (1d8+5/x2) and
. . +2 Silversheen Heavy mace +14/+9 (1d8+6/x2)
Special Attacks hatred
Spell-Like Abilities Acid Dart (9/day), Resistant Touch (9/day)
Cleric Spells Prepared (CL 10):
5 (3/day) Wall of Stone (DC 21), Breath of Life (DC 21), Air Walk, Communal (x2)
4 (4/day) Blessing of Fervor (x2) (DC 20), Spell Immunity, Freedom of Movement (x2)
3 (4/day) Protection from Energy, Invisibility Purge, Dispel Magic (x2), Stone Shape
2 (6/day) Restoration, Lesser (x2), Silence (DC 18), Soften Earth and Stone, Grace (x3)
1 (6/day) Liberating Command (x2), Shield of Faith (x2), Protection from Evil (x2), Sanctuary (DC 17)
0 (at will) Stabilize, Read Magic, Create Water, Detect Magic
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Statistics
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Str 18, Dex 12, Con 17, Int 10, Wis 22, Cha 8
Base Atk +7; CMB +13; CMD 26 (26 vs. Bull Rush, 26 vs. Trip)
Feats Combat Casting, Defensive Combat Training, Furious Focus, Improved Initiative, Power Attack -2/+4
Traits Glory of Old, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +1 (-3 jump), Appraise +0 (+2 to determine the price of nonmagic items with precious metals or gemstones), Knowledge (religion) +13, Perception +16 (+18 to notice unusual stonework, such as traps and hidden doors in stone walls or floors), Sense Motive +19
Languages Common, Dwarven
SQ aura, cleric channel positive energy 5d6 (2/day) (dc 14), domains (earth, protection), greed, hardy, slow and steady, spontaneous casting, stability, stonecunning +2
Combat Gear Wand of cure light wounds, Wand of Restoration, Lesser; Other Gear +2 Breastplate, +2 Heavy steel shield, +1 Cold Iron Heavy mace, +2 Silversheen Heavy mace, Amulet of natural armor +1, Belt of physical might (Str & Con +2), Feather step slippers, Headband of inspired wisdom +4, Ioun stone (pale green prism (cracked, Attack), Ring of protection +1, Ring of sustenance, 394 GP
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Special Abilities
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Acid Dart (1d6+5) (9/day) (Sp) 30' Ranged touch attack deals 1d6+5 Acid damage.
Aura (Ex) The Cleric has an aura corresponding to his deity's alignment.
Aura of Protection (10 rounds/day) (Su) 30'r aura grants Energy Resistance 5 and a +1 deflection bonus to AC.
Cleric Channel Positive Energy 5d6 (2/day) (DC 14) (Su) Positive energy heals the living and harms the undead; negative has the reverse effect.
Cleric Domain (Earth) Granted Powers: You have mastery over earth, metal, and stone, can fire darts of acid, and command earth creatures.
Cleric Domain (Protection) Granted Powers: Your faith is your greatest source of protection, and you can use that faith to defend others. In addition, you receive a +1 resistance bonus on saving throws. This bonus increases by 1 for every 5 levels you possess.
Combat Casting +4 to Concentration checks to cast while on the defensive.
Damage Resistance, Acid (10) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Acid attacks.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Defensive Training +4 Gain a dodge bonus to AC vs monsters of the Giant subtype.
Feather step slippers Ignore difficult terrain as though affected by feather step.
Glory of Old You receive a +1 trait bonus on saving throws against spells, spell-like abilities, and poison.
Greed +2 to Appraise checks to determine the price of nonmagical goods that contain precious metals or gemstones.
Hardy +2 Gain a racial bonus to saves vs Poison, Spells and Spell-Like effects.
Hatred +1 Gain a racial bonus to attacks vs Goblinoids/Orcs.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Resistant Touch (9/day) (Sp) May donate Protection Domain's Resistance bonus to ally by touch for 1 minute.
Ring of sustenance Immune to hunger and thirst, and only sleep two hours a night.
Slow and Steady Your base speed is never modified by encumbrance.
Spontaneous Casting The Cleric can convert stored spells into Cure or Inflict spells.
Stability +4 Gain bonus to CMD vs bull rush/trip while standing on ground.
Stonecunning +2 +2 bonus to Perception vs unusual stonework. Free check within 10 feet.
Wand of Restoration, Lesser Add this item to create a wand of a chosen spell.
Token Wizard:
Token Wizard
Male Elf (Snowcaster) Wizard 10
N Medium Humanoid (elf)
Init +11; Senses low-light vision; Perception +17
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Defense
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AC 24, touch 17, flat-footed 19 (+4 armor, +2 shield, +5 Dex, +1 natural, +2 deflection)
hp 57 (10d6+20)
Fort +11, Ref +12, Will +12; +2 vs. enchantments
Immune magic sleep; Resist elven immunities
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Wizard Spells Prepared (CL 10):
5 (3/day) Overland Flight, Summon Monster V (x2), Cloudkill (DC 23)
4 (5/day) Black Tentacles, Stone Shape, Dimension Door (x2), Summon Monster IV (x2)
3 (5/day) Heroism (x2), Haste (x2), Fireball (x2) (DC 21)
2 (6/day) Invisibility (x2), Alter Self, Blur (x2), Glitterdust (x2)
1 (6/day) Silent Image (x2) (DC 19), Mage Armor (x2), Enlarge Person (x2) (DC 19), Enlarge Person (DC 19)
0 (at will) Read Magic, Detect Magic, Dancing Lights, Prestidigitation (DC 18)
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Statistics
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Str 7, Dex 20, Con 13, Int 26, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +5; CMB +3; CMD 25
Feats Combat Casting, Defensive Combat Training, Fast Study, Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Opposition Research, Scribe Scroll, Spell Penetration
Traits Forlorn, Reactionary
Skills Appraise +11, Fly +18, Knowledge (arcana) +21, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +21, Knowledge (local) +21, Knowledge (nature) +21, Knowledge (planes) +21, Knowledge (religion) +21, Perception +17, Sense Motive +3, Spellcraft +21 (+23 to determine the properties of a magic item), Use Magic Device +9; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
Languages Aklo, Celestial, Common, Draconic, Elven, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Sylvan
SQ +3 to appraise checks, arcane bonds (arcane familiar, raven), change shape (10 rounds/day), deliver touch spells through familiar, elven magic, empathic link with familiar, opposition schools (necromancy), physical enhancement +3 (constitution), share spells with familiar, speak with animals, speak with familiar, specialized schools (transmutation), telekinetic fist (11/day)
Other Gear +1 Mithral Buckler, Amulet of natural armor +1, Belt of incredible dexterity +4, Cloak of resistance +3, Feather step slippers, Headband of vast intelligence +4 (Fly, Use Magic D, Ioun stone (pale green prism (cracked, saves), Ring of protection +2, Ring of sustenance, 495 GP
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Special Abilities
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+3 to Appraise checks You gain the Alertness feat while your familiar is within arm's reach.
Change Shape (10 rounds/day) (Sp) Use Beast Shape II or Elemental Body I as a Spell-Like ability.
Combat Casting +4 to Concentration checks to cast while on the defensive.
Deliver Touch Spells Through Familiar (Su) Your familiar can deliver touch spells for you.
Elven Immunities +2 save bonus vs Enchantments.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to magic sleep effects.
Elven Magic +2 to spellcraft checks to determine the properties of a magic item.
Empathic Link with Familiar (Su) You have an empathic link with your Arcane Familiar.
Fast Study Normally, a wizard spends 1 hour preparing all of his spells for the day, or proportionately less if he only prepares some spells, with a minimum of 15 minutes of preparation. Thanks to mental discipline and clever mnemonics, you can prepare all of y
Feather step slippers Ignore difficult terrain as though affected by feather step.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Necromancy You must spend 2 slots to cast spells from the Necromancy school.
Physical Enhancement +3 (Constitution) (Su) +1 bonus to physical ability, +1 per 5 levels (change per day).
Ring of sustenance Immune to hunger and thirst, and only sleep two hours a night.
Share Spells with Familiar Can cast spells with a target of "You" on the familiar with a range of touch.
Speak with Animals (Ex) Your familiar can communicate with animals similar to itself.
Speak With Familiar (Ex) You can communicate verbally with your familiar.
Telekinetic Fist (11/day) (Sp) 30' ranged touch attack, 1d4+5
Transmutation Transmuters use magic to change the world around them.
Token Bard:
Token Bard
Halfling Bard 10
CN Small Humanoid (halfling)
Init +9; Senses Perception +18
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Defense
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AC 23, touch 17, flat-footed 18 (+6 armor, +5 Dex, +1 size, +1 deflection)
hp 78 (10d8+30)
Fort +12, Ref +16, Will +11; +2 vs. fear, +4 vs. bardic performance, sonic, and language-dependant effects
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 Silversheen Cestus +14/+9 (1d3+6/19-20/x2)
Ranged +2 Composite shortbow (Str +2) +16/+11 (1d4+7/19-20/x3)
Special Attacks bardic performance (move action) (26 rounds/day), bardic performance: countersong, bardic performance: dirge of doom, bardic performance: distraction, bardic performance: fascinate (4 targets) (dc 19), bardic performance: inspire competence +3, bardic performance: inspire courage +2, bardic performance: inspire greatness (1 allies), bardic performance: suggestion (dc 19)
Bard Spells Known (CL 10):
4 (2/day) Dimension Door, Freedom of Movement
3 (4/day) Good Hope, Haste, Confusion (DC 17), Feather Step, Mass
2 (5/day) Tongues, Mirror Image, Silence (DC 16), Invisibility, Glitterdust
1 (6/day) Saving Finale (DC 15), Silent Image (DC 15), Restful Sleep (DC 15), Grease (DC 15), Comprehend Languages
0 (at will) Read Magic, Ghost Sound (DC 14), Mage Hand, Detect Magic, Dancing Lights, Prestidigitation (DC 14)
--------------------
Statistics
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Str 14, Dex 20, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 18
Base Atk +7; CMB +8; CMD 27
Feats Arcane Strike, Defensive Combat Training, Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse
Skills Bluff +17, Climb +6, Diplomacy +17, Disguise +17, Fly +7, Handle Animal +17, Intimidate +17, Knowledge (arcana) +9, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +9, Knowledge (history) +9, Knowledge (local) +9, Knowledge (nature) +9, Knowledge (planes) +9, Knowledge (religion) +9, Perception +18, Perform (act) +17, Perform (dance) +8, Perform (oratory) +17, Perform (percussion instruments) +17, Sense Motive +17, Sleight of Hand +9, Stealth +22, Use Magic Device +17; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
Languages Common, Halfling
SQ bardic knowledge, fearless, jack of all trades: trained skills, lore master (1/day), versatile performance abilities (acting, oratory, percussion instruments), well versed
Other Gear +2 Mithral Chain shirt, +1 Silversheen Cestus, +2 Composite shortbow (Str +2), Belt of physical perfection +2, Bracers of falcon's aim, Cloak of resistance +3, Feather step slippers, Gloves of arcane striking, Headband of alluring charisma +2, Ring of protection +1, Ring of sustenance, 1120 GP
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Special Abilities
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Arcane Strike As a swift action, add +1 damage, +1 per 5 caster levels and your weapons are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Bardic Knowledge +5 (Ex) Add +5 to all knowledge skill checks.
Bardic Performance (move action) (26 rounds/day) Your performances can create magical effects.
Bardic Performance: Countersong (Su) Counter magical effects that depend on sound.
Bardic Performance: Dirge of Doom (Su) Enemies within 30' are shaken.
Bardic Performance: Distraction (Su) Counter magical effects that depend on sight.
Bardic Performance: Fascinate (4 targets) (DC 19) (Su) One or more creatures becomes fascinated with you.
Bardic Performance: Inspire Competence +3 (Su) +2 competence bonus for one ally on a skill check.
Bardic Performance: Inspire Courage +2 (Su) Morale bonus on some saving throws, attack and damage rolls.
Bardic Performance: Inspire Greatness (1 allies) (Su) Grants allies 2 bonus hit dice, +2 to attacks and +1 to fort saves.
Bardic Performance: Suggestion (DC 19) (Sp) Make a Suggestion to one Fascinated creature.
Fearless +2 racial bonus vs Fear saves.
Feather step slippers Ignore difficult terrain as though affected by feather step.
Gloves of arcane striking Arcane strike bonus is added to aid another, and deals splash dam around hit foe.
Jack of All Trades: Trained skills (Ex) You may use all skills untrained.
Lore Master (1/day) (Ex) Take 10 on knowledge checks, and 1/day take 20 as a standard action.
Ring of sustenance Immune to hunger and thirst, and only sleep two hours a night.
Versatile Performance (Acting) +17 (Ex) You may substitute the final value of your Perform: Act skill for Bluff or Disguise checks
Versatile Performance (Oratory) +17 (Ex) You may substitute the final value of your Perform: Oratory skill for Diplomacy or Sense Motive checks
Versatile Performance (Percussion Instruments) +17 (Ex) You may substitute the final value of your Perform: Percussion Instruments skill for Handle Animal or Intimidate checks
Well Versed (Ex) +4 save vs. bardic performance, sonic, and language-dependent effects.
Now, these guys can fulfill a lot of roles in place of our characters, but since not every party has these classes/roles, let's assume they're just in case they're absolutely necessary.
Cleric DPR against AC 24 (Unbuffed): 9.82
Bard DPR against AC 24 (Unbuffed): 12.97
Cleric DPR against AC 24 (With Inspire Courage): 18.7
Bard DPR against AC 24 (With Inspire Courage): 14.44
I suppose it's fair to assume they deal about 22.7 damage per round to a single enemy with AC 24. Or 33.14 if one of them takes a round to cast a random buff.
Now, these shouldn't be used on our encounter simulations, but they're a easy way to see how you having a decent party would change the way things happen.
I agree Lemmy. That is why I had it blocking the only way to move forward, but the potion of fly can get them past it if they don't want to fight it, and the monk can probably jump over it.
Ah, I missed that part.
Well, Longstrider + Ranged seems like the ideal strategy here. If 2HR can attract it far enough from its underwater lair, entering melee is also possible, although unnecessary, unless one of his party members is too slow (in which case, he/she should be taking double move actions to run away while 2HR mkites the beast to death).
Barkskin is still active for 2HR, BTW, since the spell lasts 90min for him. It's likely it'll still be active on the next 1~2 battles as well.
(I'm assuming the rest of the party had to finish the Witchfire for 2HR, or do all the work for Mork)
BTW, The Crocodile will almost definitely grab whoever it bites. It has the Grab ability and a Grapple CMB of +30!
Dire Crocodile is usually the kind of encounter the PCs can avoid without problem...
The beast is likely to be at least partially submerse, and it probably minds its own business unless it's really hungry or if someone attacks it.
I don't see it chasing PCs too far from whatever water body it calls home unless attacked. Even if it's hungry, it'd probably stay around his home lake/pond/whatever and hunt whatever he usually hunts when there are no PCs around...
But even if it has a particular taste for humanoid flesh, both Mork and 2HR (as well as all my other Ranger builds) can notice the beast before it notices them, and sneak past it by taking 10 on their Stealth checks.
1 danger avoided, countless resources spared.
Having the means to avoid pointless battles also count as utility/versatility, IMO (e.g.: A Fighter would probably lack the necessary Stealth bonus, and most casters would need spells to avoid the beast) but if you want, I can post the battle later tonight. Right now, I'm usinga PC where I don't have neither HL nor my Excel DPR spreadsheet... -.-'
The worst case scenario, Croc grabs a PC and brings him/her underwater... Isn't that how Crocodiles act? I think that'd be closer to what's expected from a Dire Crocodile...
Stay away, it minds its own business. Get too close, he grabs you and pulls you underwater, where he has a HUGE advantage.
Lemmy, the creature is incorporal. You won't be tripping him, bullrushing, grappling, and so one... :)
prd wrote:
Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled.
Ah, I forgot about that, it also flies, which makes it double impossible to trip... Doesn't really matter, though, even if it could be tripped, it'd still kill Mork in that very same round.
Witchfires are really dangerous for their CR.
- Incorporeal
- At will Invisibility
- 8d6 (x1.5) damage every round...
Unless one of the casters can provide Glitterdust, Resist/Protection from Energy and/or a bunch of ice-based blasting spells, martial character will have a difficult time around it.
2HR could have done it if he had won initiative, though...
That's good enough for me... I'll try to run Mork, the 2-Handed Ranger (henceforth referred to as 2HR) and one of my TWF Rangers...
Let's see...
Undead creature! Awesome!
Incorporeal... Well, screw you, wraithstrike! (JK, wraith! I like you! ^^)
I'd say swamps have plenty of cover, actually, there are tress, mud, roots, vines and fog everywhere, though it probably means PCs will have to deal with difficult terrain...
Now, Witchfires can cast Invisibility at will. So either someone uses something like Glitterdust or he wins. It's that simple. All it has to do is attack, move away, become invisible and move again, wait a few minutes so the PCs lose their buffs, and repeat. It has Int 17, there's no way it'd be dumb enough to try a frontal attack unless it absolutely has to. So I'll assume the party Wizard/Sorcerer/whatever casts Glitterdust on it right after both the Monk (or Ranger) and the witchfire have acted, but the witchfire makes its save and not be blinded.
I assume the PCs know about as much as the wraithstrike as it knows about them. In this case, PCs know there is a evil creature haunting the swamps, and the witchfire knows humanoids it's being hunted
Mork:
1st round
This flaming bastard has Initiative +10 and Stealth +19 (before Inisibility!) That means Mork will most likely be taken by surprise even if he knows there's a witchfire around.
In the case of Mork, that means his AC against the Witchfire's touch attack is 17... There goes 25hp... Plus 40% chance of Witchflame... -.-'
Well, f@$@...
2nd Round
Witchfire attacks again... That's another 30.3 damage... Mork only has 23.7 hp left... Unless his friends help him, he'll be dead in the next round... -.-'
His best chance to help is charging the witchfire and tripping it, and charges may not be possible due to difficult terrain. Unfortunately, he has a 60% chance of succeeding. Doesn't really matter, the witchfire can still kill Mork anyway, but at least it's prone now, so hopefully, the other party members can kill it fast enough to save Mork's life...
3rd round
Mork is either dead or retreating. The witchfire is likely prone, so that -4 AC against melee attacks... Hopefully someone has Resist Energy or Protection From Energy prepared... Or at least a few ice spells... -.-'
And all of that is assuming the Witchfire doesn't spend a few rounds to summon will-o'-wisps and make them invisible (as well as itself)
This is a difficult encounter for any martial character or unprepared caster... Unless Mork's companions can offer significant help, he'll most likely die or run to the hills... Sadly...
2-Handed Ranger:
I believe this guy will fare better. Let's see...
1st Round - Surprise!
If 2HR knows there are witchfires around, can use Survival +26 to track the witchfire and Perception +26 to notice its presence(Favored Enemy FTW!). 2HR will likely fail his knowledge check, but since witchfires are freaking flaming creatures, I believe it's safe to say 2HR would be smart enough to cast Resist Energy on himself. That means he gets Fire Resistance 20.
If the Witchfire is not constantly casting Invisibility on itself, then 2HR will strike first, otherwise, the opening move goes to the witchfire, and it probably will, because why wouldn't it be invisible all the time?
It goes first, and takes 2HR by Surprise... That's 27.9, plus 50% witch fire... That's an extra 7.5 damage next time it hits 2HR...
2nd Round
Witchfire's turn again... 35.4 damage... 2HR has 45.93 HP left. He casts Resist Energy (Fire) on himself and move as close to the Witchfire as he possibly can, drawing his sword if it's possible to move enough to be adjacent to it, otherwise he draws his bow.
3rd Round
The Witchfire doesn't have any ranks in Spellcraft, so he doesn't know what spell 2HR just cast. He attacks again, but this time, 2HR is not flatfooted! That's total of 33.9 damage. Which is reduced to 13.9... Doesn't matter... 2hR still has 32.03hp left
2HR full attacks with melee if possible. His DPR against the creature is 78.54, but since it's incorporeal, this damage is reduced by half, to 39.27.
If it's still at ranged-combat distance, he attacks with his longbow, for 71.66 DPR, which is reduced to 35.83... G+$+%%n incorporeal creatures... -,-'
4th Round:
The witchfire might notice his attack was not very effective... It might try one again just to be sure (DPR 13.9 again), or he might use this round to summon 2 Will-O'-Wisp, who together, deal 18 shock damage to 2HR... I'll assume it deals the average between these 2 damage outputs: 15.95.
2HR still hast 19.88 hp. He full attacks again! That's another 39.27 damage to the flaming bastard if melee or 36.83 if ranged.
5th Round:
Witchfire + Will-O'-Wisps will kill 2HR unless one of his friends helps him...
2HR also bites the dust...
Well, at least he got to deal a significant amount of damage (at least 62.3% of the Witchfire's life), even though he was caught by surprise and was fighting "alone" against an enemy creature that is particularly powerful against martials.
I like this suggestion by Lemmy-->I think we should see how each character fares against 2~3 different encounters in a row (with 10~30 minutes of "rest" time).
How do we account for saves? Most builds here have something of a 40~60% chance of making CR-appropriate saves. Those values aren't low enough to be considered an auto-fail nor high enough to be considered a auto-success.
Since saves in PF tend to be binary, that makes a huge difference as well...
Just your average 2-handed switch-hitter Ranger, so we can compare our Monks and TWFers to him...
2-Handed Ranger:
2-Handed Ranger
Male Half-Elf Ranger 10
N Medium Humanoid (elf, human)
Init +3; Senses low-light vision; Perception +20
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 22, touch 14, flat-footed 19 (+8 armor, +3 Dex, +1 deflection)
hp 99 (10d10+40)
Fort +13 (+4 vs. hot or cold environments and to resist damage from suffocation), Ref +13, Will +11; +2 vs. enchantments
Defensive Abilities evasion; Immune magic sleep; Resist elven immunities
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 20 ft.
Melee +1 Cold Iron Longsword +18/+13 (1d8+7/19-20/x2) and
. . +2 Silversheen Greatsword +20/+15 (2d6+11/17-20/x2)
Ranged +1 Composite longbow (Str +6) +16/+11 (1d8+7/19-20/x3)
Special Attacks favored enemies (dragons +2, monstrous humanoids +2, undead +6)
Ranger Spells Prepared (CL 9):
2 (2/day) Barkskin (x2)
1 (3/day) Lead Blades (x2), Longstrider
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 22, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 7
Base Atk +10; CMB +18; CMD 30
Feats Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round), Endurance, Furious Focus, Improved Critical (Greatsword), Improved Precise Shot, Manyshot, Power Attack -3/+6, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
Traits Indomitable Faith, Magical Knack (Ranger)
Skills Acrobatics +3 (-1 jump), Bluff -2 (+0 vs. dragons, +0 vs. monstrous humanoids, +4 vs. undead), Climb +12, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +14 (+16 vs. dragons, +16 vs. monstrous humanoids, +20 vs. undead), Knowledge (nature) +14 (+16 vs. dragons, +16 vs. monstrous humanoids, +20 vs. undead), Knowledge (religion) +11 (+13 vs. dragons, +13 vs. monstrous humanoids, +17 vs. undead), Perception +20 (+22 vs. dragons, +22 vs. monstrous humanoids, +26 vs. undead, +22 while in forest terrain, +24 while in underground terrain), Sense Motive +2 (+4 vs. dragons, +4 vs. monstrous humanoids, +8 vs. undead), Spellcraft +14, Stealth +18 (+20 while in forest terrain, +22 while in underground terrain), Survival +13 (+15 vs. dragons, +15 vs. monstrous humanoids, +19 vs. undead, +15 while in forest terrain, +17 while in underground terrain, +18 to track), Swim +12 (+16 to resist nonlethal damage from exhaustion); Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
Languages Common, Draconic, Elven
SQ combat styles (archery), elf blood, favored terrains (forest +2, underground +4), hunter's bonds (companions), swift tracker, track, wild empathy, woodland stride
Combat Gear Potion of enlarge person, Potion of fly, Wand of cure light wounds; Other Gear +2 Breastplate, +1 Cold Iron Longsword, +1 Composite longbow (Str +6), +2 Silversheen Greatsword, Belt of physical perfection +2, Bracers of falcon's aim, Cloak of resistance +3, Headband of inspired wisdom +2, Ioun stone (pale green prism (cracked, Attack), Ring of protection +1, Masterwork tool (Climb), Masterwork tool (Stealth), Masterwork tool (Swim), 55 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Elf Blood You are counted as both elven and human for any effect relating to race.
Elven Immunities +2 save bonus vs Enchantments.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to magic sleep effects.
Endurance +4 to a variety of skill checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Favored Enemy (Dragons +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Favored Enemy (Dragons).
Favored Enemy (Monstrous Humanoids +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Favored Enemy (Monstrous Humanoids).
Favored Enemy (Undead +6) (Ex) +6 to rolls vs Favored Enemy (Undead).
Favored Terrain (Forest +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Favored Terrain (Forest).
Favored Terrain (Underground +4) (Ex) +4 to rolls vs Favored Terrain (Underground).
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each turn.
Hunting Companions (2 rounds) (Ex) Grant half favored enemy bonus to allies in 30' as move action.
Improved Precise Shot Ignore AC bonuses and miss chance from anything less than total cover/concealment.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Magical Knack (Ranger) +2 CL for a specific class, to a max of your HD.
Manyshot You can shoot two arrows as the first attack of a full attack action.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Swift Tracker (Ex) Tracking penalties when moving at normal speed or faster are reduced.
Track +5 Add the listed bonus to survival checks made to track.
Wild Empathy +8 (Ex) Improve the attitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.
Woodland Stride (Ex) Move through undergrowth at normal speed.
AC: 22 (26 With Barkskin)
Fort 13 Ref 13 Will 11
Melee DPR:
Against AC 24: 36.54
...With Power Attack: 49.14
......Against main Favored Enemy: 78.54
Ranged DPR:
Against AC 24: 39.15 (Includes Rapid Shot and Manyshot)
...Vs Favored Enemy: 71.66 (O.O)
It's a rather obvious build too... The only non-Core stuff is Furious Focus, Bracers of Falcon's Aim and his Pale Green Ioun Stone.
Heh... Poor Rogue... That's why classes with poor will saves should always buy the best Cloak of Resistance they can afford and a Wayfinder + Clear Spindle combo! That stuff will saves your life!
Luckily for you, saves won't be a problem for Sun Xiao most of the time... Although you'll probably still curse the dice gods every now then.
Once everyone is happy with their build I will introduce the terrain and the opponent(s). I will assume whoever has the highest initiative modifier goes first. If that is the same then I go to the highest dex modifier. Hopefully that settle initiative.
I think you can post it already, worst case scenario, someone arrives late and post a build, but nothing stops anyone from fighting those battles a little late...
Starting with an "easy" fight for melee martial characters:
2 Hill Giants:
hp: 85
melee: Greatclub +14/+9 (2d8+10) or 2-Slams +13 (1d8+7)
Ranged: Rock =6 (1d8+10)
Cestus Ranger:
This guy has Survival +13, Perception +15 and Stealth +18. Hill Giants have Perception +6 and Stealth -5. Save for some really bizarre dice roll, Ranger'll easily detect the Giants' presence, track them and approach the duo without being seen.
As soon as he has them in sight, he casts Barkskin on himself, which lasts for 90min and gives him an AC of 27.
If possible to get real close to the giants, he does so using Stealth, preferably at night, to benefit from his Darkvision. If he can do it, he'll get as close as he can to the first giant and full attack it in the surprise round. Since he has initiative +3 and the hill giants have iniative -1, there is a good chance Ranger will go first, which means he makes two full attacks in a row to his 1st target. That's an average DPR of 85,26. Ranger just one-shot his 1st target.
That's the best-case scenario, though... Things rarely go that smoothly...
2nd scenario:
1st round:
If a approaching them unnoticed is impossible (and it probably is). Ranger can harass them with his longbow for an average of 15.21 DPR. Since that was most likely a surprise round for the Hill Giants and they have sucky Initiative modifiers, Rranger goes again for yet another 15.21 damage. All they can do is each come close to melee or throw rocks for an average of 0.8 DPR. Ranger can stick to ranged combat all day if they want. But that's unlikely, Hill Giants are dumb brutes! They'll probably charge Ranger.
The 1st Giant is likely to have a clear path, so he gets to deal 10,6 damage to Ranger. Hurts, but nothing too bad. The second giant likely won't have such luck, as the first one is probably between him and Ranger, so he has to double move. That was lucky...
2nd Round:
Ranger drops his bows (it keeps hanging in his weapon cord) and uses his already equipped Cestus to attack whatever giant he hit with his arrows! That's another 42.6 damage on top of his previous 32.4, for a total of 75 damage. The first Giant is almost dead!
But now it's their turn to attack... Dumb as they are, Hill Giants are still smart enough to flank Ranger, getting a +2 to their attacks.
I assume they're using their Great Clubs (because why would a Giant carry a great club if he don't plan on using it?) Each giant uses Power Attack to deal 13 damage to Ranger. Not a problem, Ranger still has 42.4 hp. Hopefully, that'll be enough!
3rd round:
Ranger will probably kill one of the giants with his 1st attack (average 12,5 damage vs 10hp), but since I'm really nice, let's say he needs his 2 primary attack. Doesn't matter anyway, Hill Giant has 10ft reach, so it's unlikely that second one would be adjacent to Ranger. :(
Ranger finishes the 1st Giant then 5ft steps closer to the 2nd one.
Demonstrating all the tactical thinking one'd expect from a Hill Giant, it once again makes a Power Attack full attack against Ranger. He's not flanking anymore, though, so he deals 8,25 damage to Ranger. Only another 34.15 to go!
4th round:
Ranger's turn! 5ft step again (if necessary) and full freaking attack! This time with Power Attack just because it's fun! That's 51,8 damage to Tiny.
One round later, Ranger still has 25.9 hp, and both Giants are dead.
He celebrates all by himself and complains about his party members who weren't there to help!
--------------
During the 1st round, Ranger uses his absurd skill checks to notice the ogres before they can notice him. His longbow means he gets a good damage advantage before the battle truly begins. After that, it's just your usual melee slugfest...
I wanted to try and simulate an easy fight with few variables, to see how well I could do it. But I think wraithstrike can do it better than me.
I was trying to simulate a battle between one of my rangers and 2 Hill Giants (gotta start easy).
But now I'm confused...
How should I calculate how much damage each attack deals? Should I just use average damage?
And what are the pre-combat situation? Most battles are unlikely to start with opponents 5ft away from each other.
As to saves, you have to remember you are comparing the saves to a lot of multi-class characters.
You have a point. Although not even the will saves show that much of an advantage...
ciretose wrote:
Out of curiosity why did you go with favored to skills and take defensive combat over Toughness. Or even power attack, as it really isn't that great with this style build. That is a 20 hit point boost.
Because I like skill points. I usually pick them over extra hp every time. And Monks don't have a lot of versatility out of combat, so skills help. I did the same for my all other builds too, except the last one, I believe.
Anyway, I switched Defensive Combat Training for Toughness.
ciretose wrote:
Also, for the 9k you spend on +3 bracers you can spend 4k for +2 and 2k for a ring. That would leave you 3k to up your cloak to a +2...or to spend on whatever you like.
I thought I already had a Ring of Protection... -.-'
Mork
Half-Orc (Mystic) Monk (Qinggong Monk) 10
LN Medium Humanoid (human, orc)
Init +4; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +17
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 21, touch 19, flat-footed 19 (+2 armor, +2 Dex, +1 deflection)
hp 78 (10d8+30)
Fort +12 (+4 vs. hot or cold environments and to resist damage from suffocation), Ref +12, Will +14; +2 bonus vs. sleep, paralysis, and stunning, +2 vs. enchantment spells and effects
Defensive Abilities evasion, improved evasion; Immune disease
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 60 ft.
Melee Unarmed strike +16/+11 (1d10+12/19-20/x2)
Special Attacks flurry of blows +17/+17/+12/+12 (1d10+12/19-20/x2, ki strike, cold iron/silver, ki strike, lawful, ki strike, magic
Spell-Like Abilities Barkskin (self only, 1 Ki), Restoration (self only, 2 Ki), Scorching Ray (2 Ki)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 22, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 8
Base Atk +7; CMB +16 (+18 Tripping); CMD 32 (34 vs. Trip)
Feats Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round), Dragon Ferocity +3, 1d4+6 rds, Dragon Style, Endurance (Shaman's Apprentice), Improved Critical (Unarmed strike), Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Medusa's Wrath, Power Attack -2/+4, Stunning Fist (10/day) (DC 19), Toughness +10, Weapon Focus (Unarmed strike)
Traits Quain Martial Artist, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +13 (+25 jump), Climb +10, Escape Artist +15, Perception +17, Sense Motive +17, Stealth +15, Swim +10 (+14 to resist nonlethal damage from exhaustion)
Languages Common, Orc
SQ ac bonus +6, fast movement (+30'), ki defense, ki pool, maneuver training, purity of body, stunning fist (stun, fatigue, sicken), unarmed strike (1d10)
Combat Gear Deliquescent gloves, Potion of enlarge person, Potion of fly; Other Gear Amulet of mighty fists +2, Belt of physical might (Str & Con +2), Bracers of armor +2, Cloak of resistance +2, Headband of inspired wisdom +4, Ring of protection +1, 400 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
AC Bonus +6 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Barkskin (self only, 1 Ki) (Sp) Self Only. Costs 1 ki point to activate.
Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Deliquescent gloves +1d6 acid dam to touch/weapon att. Natural/unarmed att is immune to ooze acid & doesn't split.
Dragon Ferocity +3, 1d4+6 rds Gain bonus on unarmed attacks, and you can cause opponents to be shaken
Dragon Style +2 vs sleep, paralysis, and stun, first unarmed strike in a rd deals 1.5x Str, and can ignore difficult terrain/allies when charging.
Endurance (Shaman's Apprentice) +4 to a variety of skill checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Movement (+30') The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
Flurry of Blows +8/+8/+3/+3 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full rd action.
Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
Improved Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead. If you fail you take half damage.
Improved Trip You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when tripping.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Ki Defense (Su) A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
Ki Pool (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
Ki Strike, Cold Iron/Silver (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as cold iron and silver to overcome DR.
Ki Strike, Lawful (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as lawful to overcome DR.
Ki Strike, Magic (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as magic to overcome DR.
Maneuver Training (Ex) CMB = other BABs + Monk level
Medusa's Wrath Full attack: Add 2 unarmed strikes against a dazed, flat-footed, paralyzed, staggered, stunned, or unconscious foe.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Purity of Body (Ex) At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
Restoration (self only, 2 Ki) (Sp) Self only. Costs 2 ki points to activate.
Scorching Ray (2 Ki) (Sp) Costs 2 ki points to activate.
Stunning Fist (10/day) (DC 19) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Sicken) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist.
Unarmed Strike (1d10) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Man, Qinggong and Delisquecent Gloves go a long way to boost Monks... And yet... This guy still needs to spend his very limited Ki to have decent AC...
Well... At least his damage output is pretty good:
DPR targeting AC 24: 56.75
Spending Ki for an extra attack: 73,5
Power Attack actually hurts his DPR, unless he's buffed or his enemies have particularly low AC... -.-'
Okay, okay... Last entry... The real "I just want to kick people in the neck" build...
Ranger 6/Brawler Fighter 3/MoMS Monk 1...
Neck Kicker:
Neck Kicker
Male Human (Azlanti) Fighter (Brawler) 3 Monk (Master of Many Styles) 1 Ranger 6
LN Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +14
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 25, touch 13, flat-footed 23 (+8 armor, +4 shield, +2 Dex, +1 deflection)
hp 78 (9d10+1d8+20)
Fort +15 (+4 vs. hot or cold environments and to resist damage from suffocation), Ref +13, Will +12 (+1 vs. fear); +2 bonus vs. sleep, paralysis, and stunning
Defensive Abilities bravery +1
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee Heavy Shield Bash +18/+13 (1d4+10/x2) and
. . Unarmed strike +22/+17 (1d6+16/19-20/x2)
Special Attacks close combatant +1/+3, favored enemies (monstrous humanoids +2, undead +4)
Ranger Spells Prepared (CL 5):
1 (2/day) Longstrider (x2)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 24, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 7
Base Atk +9; CMB +18 (+19 Bull Rushing, +19 Dragging, +20 Grappling, +19 Repositioning); CMD 29 (30 vs. Bull Rush, 30 vs. Drag, 30 vs. Reposition)
Feats Double Slice, Dragon Ferocity +3, 1d4+7 rds, Dragon Style, Endurance, Improved Critical (Unarmed strike), Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Improved Unarmed Strike, Iron Will, Power Attack -3/+6, Snake Fang, Snake Style, Stunning Fist (3/day) (DC 16), Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Unarmed strike)
Traits Indomitable Faith, Magical Knack (Ranger)
Skills Acrobatics +10, Bluff -2 (+0 vs. monstrous humanoids, +2 vs. undead), Climb +11, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +12 (+14 vs. monstrous humanoids, +16 vs. undead), Knowledge (nature) +11 (+13 vs. monstrous humanoids, +15 vs. undead), Knowledge (religion) +11 (+13 vs. monstrous humanoids, +15 vs. undead), Perception +14 (+16 vs. monstrous humanoids, +18 vs. undead, +16 while in underground terrain), Sense Motive +16 (+18 vs. monstrous humanoids, +20 vs. undead), Stealth +15 (+17 while in underground terrain), Survival +1 (+3 vs. monstrous humanoids, +5 vs. undead, +3 while in underground terrain, +4 to track), Swim +11 (+15 to resist nonlethal damage from exhaustion)
Languages Azlanti, Common
SQ brawling, combat styles (two-weapon combat), favored terrain (underground +2), fuse style (2 styles), hunter's bonds (companions), stunning fist (stun), track, unarmed strike (1d6), wild empathy
Combat Gear Deliquescent gloves, Potion of enlarge person, Potion of fly; Other Gear +2 Brawling Mithral Breastplate, +2 Heavy steel shield, Amulet of mighty fists +1, Belt of giant strength +4, Cloak of resistance +3, Ioun stone (pale green prism (cracked, Attack), Ring of protection +1, 30 GP
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Special Abilities
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Bravery +1 (Ex) +1 to Will save vs. Fear
Brawling Unarmed strikes count as magic for bypassing DR.
Close Combatant +1/+3 (Ex) +1 to hit and +3 damage with close weapons.
Deliquescent gloves +1d6 acid dam to touch/weapon att. Natural/unarmed att is immune to ooze acid & doesn't split.
Dragon Ferocity +3, 1d4+7 rds Gain bonus on unarmed attacks, and you can cause opponents to be shaken
Dragon Style +2 vs sleep, paralysis, and stun, first unarmed strike in a rd deals 1.5x Str, and can ignore difficult terrain/allies when charging.
Endurance +4 to a variety of skill checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Favored Enemy (Monstrous Humanoids +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Favored Enemy (Monstrous Humanoids).
Favored Enemy (Undead +4) (Ex) +4 to rolls vs Favored Enemy (Undead).
Favored Terrain (Underground +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Favored Terrain (Underground).
Fuse Style (2 styles) (Ex) At 1st level, a master of many styles can fuse two of the styles he knows into a more perfect style. The master of many styles can have two style feat stances active at once. Starting a stance provided by a style feat is still a swift action, but whe
Hunting Companions (1 rounds) (Ex) Grant half favored enemy bonus to allies in 30' as move action.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Magical Knack (Ranger) +2 CL for a specific class, to a max of your HD.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Snake Fang If opponent misses you, make an attack of opportunity as an immediate action
Snake Style Gain +2 on Sense Motive checks, and deal piercing damage with unarmed attacks
Stunning Fist (3/day) (DC 16) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Track +3 Add the listed bonus to survival checks made to track.
Unarmed Strike (1d6) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Wild Empathy +4 (Ex) Improve the attitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.
AC: 25
DPR Against AC 24: 72.94
...With Power Attack: 74,41
......Against main Favored Enemy (Undead):115,17 O.O
Useful stuff to do out of combat: Skills, Wands of CLW and minor spellcasting...
Skills (ACP Included): Acrobatics +8, Climb +9, Perception +14, Kn(Dungeon)+12, Kn(Nature) +11, Kn(Religion)+11 (+15 to identify undead), Sense Motive +16, Stealth +13, Swim +9.
Just to be clear you dont have any rangers in this?
???
I have 3 "Monkish" Ranger builds here... But none of them chose Animal Companion as their hunter Bond.
And BTW... What are the rules on crafting magical item? Getting AoMF and Cloaks of Resistance at half the price would surely make a great difference. ^^
I would allow you to craft the items at half price exactly as they are in the book, but no custom items are combing magic items to free up slots. That involves too much GM Fiat.
No problem.
I'll post the same build here, one with Craft Magical Items, and one without it...
First... The "I just want to punch people in the face" build. No item crafting at all. Just your good ol' magic market...
Let's call him... face puncher.
Human MMoS Ranger:
Face-Puncher
Human (Azlanti) Monk (Master of Many Styles) 3 Ranger 7
LN Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +15
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Defense
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AC 24, touch 13, flat-footed 22 (+8 armor, +3 shield, +2 Dex, +1 deflection)
hp 83 (7d10+3d8+27)
Fort +13 (+4 vs. hot or cold environments and to resist damage from suffocation), Ref +13, Will +11; +2 bonus vs. sleep, paralysis, and stunning, +2 vs. enchantment spells and effects
Defensive Abilities evasion
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee Heavy Shield Bash +17/+12 (1d4+7/x2) and
. . Unarmed strike +21/+16 (1d8+14/19-20/x2)
Special Attacks favored enemies (dragons +2, undead +4)
Ranger Spells Prepared (CL 4):
2 (1/day) Barkskin
1 (2/day) Longstrider, Resist Energy
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Statistics
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Str 24, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8
Base Atk +9; CMB +19 (+21 Grappling); CMD 29
Feats Dragon Ferocity +3, 1d4+7 rds, Dragon Style, Endurance, Improved Critical (Unarmed strike), Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Improved Unarmed Strike, Monastic Legacy (+3), Power Attack -3/+6, Snake Fang, Snake Style, Stunning Fist (4/day) (DC 17), Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Unarmed strike)
Traits Indomitable Faith, Quain Martial Artist
Skills Acrobatics +6, Bluff -1 (+1 vs. dragons, +3 vs. undead), Climb +9, Escape Artist +0, Fly +0, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +13 (+15 vs. dragons, +17 vs. undead), Knowledge (nature) +13 (+15 vs. dragons, +17 vs. undead), Knowledge (religion) +11 (+13 vs. dragons, +15 vs. undead), Perception +15 (+17 vs. dragons, +19 vs. undead, +17 while in underground terrain), Ride +0, Sense Motive +17 (+19 vs. dragons, +21 vs. undead), Stealth +13 (+15 while in underground terrain), Survival +6 (+8 vs. dragons, +10 vs. undead, +8 while in underground terrain, +9 to track), Swim +9 (+13 to resist nonlethal damage from exhaustion)
Languages Azlanti, Common
SQ brawling, combat styles (two-weapon combat), favored terrain (underground +2), fuse style (2 styles), hunter's bonds (companions), maneuver training, stunning fist (stun), track, unarmed strike (1d8), wild empathy, woodland stride
Combat Gear Deliquescent gloves; Other Gear +2 Brawling Mithral Breastplate, +1 Heavy steel shield, Amulet of mighty fists +1, Belt of giant strength +4, Cloak of resistance +3, Headband of inspired wisdom +2, Ioun stone (pale green prism (cracked, Attack), Ring of protection +1, 630 GP
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Special Abilities
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Brawling Unarmed strikes count as magic for bypassing DR.
Deliquescent gloves +1d6 acid dam to touch/weapon att. Natural/unarmed att is immune to ooze acid & doesn't split.
Dragon Ferocity +3, 1d4+7 rds Gain bonus on unarmed attacks, and you can cause opponents to be shaken
Dragon Style +2 vs sleep, paralysis, and stun, first unarmed strike in a rd deals 1.5x Str, and can ignore difficult terrain/allies when charging.
Endurance +4 to a variety of skill checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Favored Enemy (Dragons +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Favored Enemy (Dragons).
Favored Enemy (Undead +4) (Ex) +4 to rolls vs Favored Enemy (Undead).
Favored Terrain (Underground +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Favored Terrain (Underground).
Fuse Style (2 styles) (Ex) At 1st level, a master of many styles can fuse two of the styles he knows into a more perfect style. The master of many styles can have two style feat stances active at once. Starting a stance provided by a style feat is still a swift action, but whe
Hunting Companions (2 rounds) (Ex) Grant half favored enemy bonus to allies in 30' as move action.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Maneuver Training (Ex) CMB = other BABs + Monk level
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Snake Fang If opponent misses you, make an attack of opportunity as an immediate action
Snake Style Gain +2 on Sense Motive checks, and deal piercing damage with unarmed attacks
Stunning Fist (4/day) (DC 17) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Track +3 Add the listed bonus to survival checks made to track.
Unarmed Strike (1d8) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Wild Empathy +6 (Ex) Improve the attitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.
Woodland Stride (Ex) Move through undergrowth at normal speed.
AC: 24 (26 with Barkskin)
DPR against AC 24: 64,67
...With Power Attack: 67,65
......Against main Favored Enemy (Undead): 104,26
I don't know how to calculate any occasional DPR granted by Snake Style, though... -.-' If this helps: Against an enemy with AC 24, a single AoO from this guy causes and average of 20,56 damage.
Just to be clear you dont have any rangers in this?
???
I have 3 "Monkish" Ranger builds here... But none of them chose Animal Companion as their hunter Bond.
And BTW... What are the rules on crafting magical item? Getting AoMF and Cloaks of Resistance at half the price would surely make a great difference. ^^
The + behind your damage isn't particularly high, that is why Power Attack improves on the DPR even with the attack penalty. Consider the deliquiscent gloves to add an extra 1d6 acid damage (at 8000gp, a steal). Also if you can somehow get the 13000gp for a monk's robe, your unarmed attack improves to 1d8.
Finally, for the MoMS+Ranger version, consider taking enough levels of MoMS to qualify for Monastic Legacy (ultimate combat feat). 4 levels MoMS and 6 levels of ranger = effective monk unarmed level of 7. Combined with a monk robe you get an effective unarmed level of 12; in other words a 2d6 unarmed strike.
Huh... My Rangers seem to be dealing considerably low damage... I wonder why that is...
I think the Unarmed Strike + TWF feat tax hurts them really bad.
Let me see... Here is a more DPR-focused version of the MoMS Ranger... This one is human.
Human MMoS Ranger:
MoMS Ranger
Human Monk (Master of Many Styles) 2 Ranger 8
LN Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +15
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Defense
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AC 24, touch 13, flat-footed 22 (+8 armor, +3 shield, +2 Dex, +1 deflection)
hp 87 (8d10+2d8+30)
Fort +14 (+4 vs. hot or cold environments and to resist damage from suffocation), Ref +14, Will +11; +2 bonus vs. sleep, paralysis, and stunning
Defensive Abilities evasion
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee Heavy Shield Bash +14/+9 (1d4+13/x2) and
. . Unarmed strike +18/+13 (1d6+19/19-20/x2)
Ranged +1 Composite longbow (Str +6) +13/+8 (1d8+7/x3)
Special Attacks favored enemies (dragons +2, undead +4)
Ranger Spells Prepared (CL 7):
2 (2/day) Barkskin (x2)
1 (2/day) Longstrider, Resist Energy
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Statistics
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Str 24, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 7
Base Atk +9; CMB +18 (+20 Grappling); CMD 29
Feats Double Slice, Dragon Ferocity +3, 1d4+7 rds, Dragon Style, Endurance, Improved Critical (Unarmed strike), Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack -3/+6, Snake Fang, Snake Style, Stunning Fist (4/day) (DC 17), Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Unarmed strike)
Traits Indomitable Faith, Magical Knack (Ranger)
Skills Acrobatics +6, Bluff -2 (+0 vs. dragons, +2 vs. undead), Climb +11, Escape Artist +0, Fly +0, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +13 (+15 vs. dragons, +17 vs. undead), Knowledge (nature) +13 (+15 vs. dragons, +17 vs. undead), Knowledge (religion) +13 (+15 vs. dragons, +17 vs. undead), Perception +15 (+17 vs. dragons, +19 vs. undead, +17 while in forest terrain, +19 while in underground terrain), Ride +0, Sense Motive +17 (+19 vs. dragons, +21 vs. undead), Stealth +15 (+17 while in forest terrain, +19 while in underground terrain), Survival +6 (+8 to avoid becoming lost, +8 vs. dragons, +10 vs. undead, +8 while in forest terrain, +10 while in underground terrain, +10 to track), Swim +11 (+15 to resist nonlethal damage from exhaustion)
Languages Common
SQ brawling, combat styles (two-weapon combat), favored terrains (forest +2, underground +4), fuse style (2 styles), hunter's bonds (companions), stunning fist (stun), swift tracker, track, unarmed strike (1d6), wild empathy, woodland stride
Combat Gear Potion of enlarge person, Potion of fly, Wand of cure light wounds; Other Gear +2 Brawling Mithral Breastplate, +1 Heavy steel shield, +1 Composite longbow (Str +6), Amulet of mighty fists +1, Belt of giant strength +4, Cloak of resistance +3, Feather step slippers, Headband of inspired wisdom +2, Ioun stone (pale green prism (cracked, Attack), Ring of protection +1, Wayfinder (1 @ 0 lbs), Masterwork tool (Climb), Masterwork tool (Stealth), Masterwork tool (Swim), 630 GP
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Special Abilities
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Brawling Unarmed strikes count as magic for bypassing DR.
Dragon Ferocity +3, 1d4+7 rds Gain bonus on unarmed attacks, and you can cause opponents to be shaken
Dragon Style +2 vs sleep, paralysis, and stun, first unarmed strike in a rd deals 1.5x Str, and can ignore difficult terrain/allies when charging.
Endurance +4 to a variety of skill checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Favored Enemy (Dragons +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Favored Enemy (Dragons).
Favored Enemy (Undead +4) (Ex) +4 to rolls vs Favored Enemy (Undead).
Favored Terrain (Forest +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Favored Terrain (Forest).
Favored Terrain (Underground +4) (Ex) +4 to rolls vs Favored Terrain (Underground).
Feather step slippers Ignore difficult terrain as though affected by feather step.
Fuse Style (2 styles) (Ex) At 1st level, a master of many styles can fuse two of the styles he knows into a more perfect style. The master of many styles can have two style feat stances active at once. Starting a stance provided by a style feat is still a swift action, but whe
Hunting Companions (2 rounds) (Ex) Grant half favored enemy bonus to allies in 30' as move action.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Magical Knack (Ranger) +2 CL for a specific class, to a max of your HD.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Snake Fang If opponent misses you, make an attack of opportunity as an immediate action
Snake Style Gain +2 on Sense Motive checks, and deal piercing damage with unarmed attacks
Stunning Fist (4/day) (DC 17) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Swift Tracker (Ex) Tracking penalties when moving at normal speed or faster are reduced.
Track +4 Add the listed bonus to survival checks made to track.
Unarmed Strike (1d6) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Wayfinder (1 @ 0 lbs) A small magical device patterned off ancient relics of the Azlanti, a wayfinder is typically made from silver and bears gold accents. With a command word, you can use a wayfinder to shine (as the light spell). The wayfinder also acts as a nonmagical (magnetic) compass, granting you a +2 circumstance bonus on Survival checks to avoid becoming lost. All wayfinders include a small indentation designed to hold a single ioun stone.
He has lower saves (Fort 14, Ref 14, Will 11) and AC (24), but more HP (87) and higher DPR (56.7, or 71.55 with PA)
I'll try a finesse MMoS Ranger next... Just to see how it compares to the Str-based one.
@Lemmy: perhaps consider - for the purpose of these simulations - a "guide" archetype ranger. That would allow you to declare a favored enemy 4/day (or 3/day with two levels of MoMS). It'll mean at least the main bad guy in each encounter can be faced with the very best the ranger has to offer.
That's a pretty good idea... I forgot about that archetype. I'll post the Guide variant for each build. Thanks for the reminder.
wraithstrike wrote:
Are you including the animal companion DPR also? They also benefit from favored enemy. :)
Make sure they get at least a +1 amulet of mighty fist so they can overcome DR magic, if nothing else.
Oh, they don't have animal companions... These guys are Monk wannabes, remember? And most Monks have no pet wolves! ^^
If you want, I can make a build with animal companions... All it changes is a single feat and slightly different gear.
