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LazarX's page

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber. FullStarFullStarFullStar Pathfinder Society GM. 34,396 posts (34,833 including aliases). 1 review. 1 list. No wishlists. 22 Pathfinder Society characters. 15 aliases.


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chbgraphicarts wrote:
What they ALL lack is a distinct level of tact; they're proud warriors, and are all apparently very stubborn and blunt (Gohan being the SOLE exception, which may just be a naturally-high Cha offsetting the racial quality).

Or unlike every other Saiyan in existence, Gohan simply had a mother who taught him humility and proper manners.

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Donald Robinson wrote:

Daylight Diadem

Aura moderate evocation; CL 9th
Slot head; Price 50,000 gp; Weight 1 lbs
Description
Four sunstone-embedded sunflowers adorn this golden diadem. When channeling positive energy, the wearer may activate the diadem by removing a flower (a move action) to augment her ability. Channels augmented in this way have their ranged extended to 60 feet. The removed flower is consumed upon use.

The wearer may use the full brilliance of the daylight diadem in a single burst. With a command word, any remaining flowers radiate a bright light in a radius of 60 feet that counters or dispels any darkness spell of 4th level or lower and is treated as natural sunlight for 4 rounds. While within the area of this light, attacks from weapons with metal striking surfaces are treated as good-aligned (bypassing the corresponding damage reduction) and ignite with divine flames dealing an additional 1d6 points of damage per flower. Half the additional damage is fire damage, but the other half results directly from divine power and is therefore not subject to being reduced by resistance to fire-based attacks. The divine flames only deal damage to creatures of evil alignment. After the four rounds have passed, all flowers on the crown burn away to ashes.

Once all four flowers have been used, the crown can no longer be activated; however, every 24 hours spent in natural sunlight allows a new flower to bloom (up to a maximum of four flowers).

Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, daylight, flame strike; Cost 25,000 gp

That's 2-3 days to recharge each flower. Is that what's intended? If it was once a day, I'd rephrase it as such. The diadem regains one flower each time it's exposed to the dawning sun.

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James Jacobs wrote:
LazarX wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:

It's worth noting that the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting is no longer 100% accurate. It got a fair amount of things flat-out wrong, so it's not a good sole book to cite for arguments or to refer to for information. Inner Sea World Guide is better suited for this.

While we weren't "lying" when we wrote the Campaign Setting hardcover... neither were we 100% settled on what we wanted for the setting. This was before Paizo had a creative director, and the entire project was very rushed (as evidenced by the number of errors in it... down to and including the low-res art on the cover of the book). It was one of our earliest lessons about rushing products... and I really REALLY wish it hadn't happened on a book that was that important... but fortunately, we were able to correct it by publishing the definitive edition of the campaign setting with the Inner Sea World Guide.

And in that book, we kinda dodge nailing down an alignment for Hermea entirely (It's lumped into the Steaming Sea entry, which has an overall regional alignment of CN.) By design. Because nailing down that region's alignment and thus nailing down the dragon's alignment would more or less be a full-on spoiler. One we don't want to reveal quite yet, but not one like "How did Aroden die" that we'll NEVER reveal.

Some day, perhaps. No promises (ha) but we'll see!

It is it possible that part of the problem is assigning alignments to countries as if they were persons?

Nope. Alignments can be assigned to anything. Be they people, regions, planes, magic items, and so on. The system is very versatile.

The problem is that we want to keep it mysterious for now until we decide not to.

Did you ever see Star Trek's "The Masterpiece Society" that I mentioned before? Any comments on it's relevance?

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James Jacobs wrote:

It's worth noting that the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting is no longer 100% accurate. It got a fair amount of things flat-out wrong, so it's not a good sole book to cite for arguments or to refer to for information. Inner Sea World Guide is better suited for this.

While we weren't "lying" when we wrote the Campaign Setting hardcover... neither were we 100% settled on what we wanted for the setting. This was before Paizo had a creative director, and the entire project was very rushed (as evidenced by the number of errors in it... down to and including the low-res art on the cover of the book). It was one of our earliest lessons about rushing products... and I really REALLY wish it hadn't happened on a book that was that important... but fortunately, we were able to correct it by publishing the definitive edition of the campaign setting with the Inner Sea World Guide.

And in that book, we kinda dodge nailing down an alignment for Hermea entirely (It's lumped into the Steaming Sea entry, which has an overall regional alignment of CN.) By design. Because nailing down that region's alignment and thus nailing down the dragon's alignment would more or less be a full-on spoiler. One we don't want to reveal quite yet, but not one like "How did Aroden die" that we'll NEVER reveal.

Some day, perhaps. No promises (ha) but we'll see!

It is it possible that part of the problem is assigning alignments to countries as if they were persons?

Grand Lodge ***

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Keith Apperson wrote:

Level 4:

Harsk
Harsk
Harsk
Harsk
Harsk
Harsk

Just for 6 burrowing badgers. They hold the frontline while Harsk(s) reload(s).

At the very least they could sing Disney's Hi Ho! song i perfect six part harmony.... with feeling.

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Aurelio 90 wrote:

I spoke with a my friend about this island, and he told me “Well, I don't undestand RPGs, but from what you've described the situazion... seem a kind of Communist society rather than a meritocracy".

And it's quite likely that your friend has no idea what a Communist society actually is other than what he's heard from American news bytes. He's likely to believe that Russia and China are Communist because they keep calling themselves that, when in actually they're examples of the more malignant forms of crony capitalism, China in particular.

There's also absolutely no foundation for the idea that Promise has taken the stance of Rahadoum either.

You also talk of democracy as if the people of Golarion were Americans who value it, when in fact no country in Golarion, not even Andoran actually practices it in the way we think of it here in our armchairs.

The closest model to Mengkare's society as Mengkare intends it to be is more likely that StarTrek TNG episode "The Masterpiece Society".

Also keep in mind that marriage for the sake of love is a relatively modern concept.

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I remember this quote from Dragonstar.

The dragon may be good, but remember it's good as the dragon sees it."

Keep in mind that dragons, unlike Paladins don't have race features that self-destruct over alignment.

Quite frankly the more people are determined to reduce this question as to what mechanic to be applied, the less interested in the story I become.

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Natan Linggod 327 wrote:

Something else a bit odd, why are the Outsider Contacts specified to be 3HD?

They only thing they do is duplicate a divination spell, or pass on a message or small item.

What would you need to know their HD for? Makes me wonder if they were meant to be able to do more things like combat but Paizo changed their minds just before publishing.

Because if Paizo didn't specify HD, we'd probably have a dozen threads now asking for those stats.

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Rynjin wrote:

Arguing with a conspiracy nut is provably LESS effective than arguing with a wall. The wall might at least form a coherent response, if you're lucky.

Why are you still doing this to yourselves?

It's more of making sure that those who aren't hard-wired to global conspiracy paranoia hear a voice other than those of the conspiracy nuts.

ThaX is pretty much a lost cause as far as trying to get him to employ critical thinking but there are others looking for information on this topic. I just want to be sure that determined ignorance like his isn't the only viewpoint they get on the subject in this venue.

Not that I don't understand the appeal of ThaX's viewpoint. In his world, we continue to muddle along with no need to change our spendthrift toxic disposable lifestyle. Interests vested in that lifestyle continue to make their fortunes, secure in the belief that they will be isolated from any aftereffects in their lifetime. And folks like the Koch brothers block any major solar initiative they can, such as getting states to write laws to forbid cities from enacting any initiatives on their own, such as the Bayonne windmill, or offshore wind farms.

Because once you accept climate change as a reality, and humankind's part in it, you become forced to assess your own role in the greater picture. And you'll realise that it's a painful mirror to look at.

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Sissyl wrote:
Even so, there is a marked difference. Nuclear has the capacity to replace coal. Solar and wind do not, whether you or anyone like it or not. Also, the environmental lobby has been a major reason we do not have more nuclear power, so "it takes time to build nuclear plants" is a pretty useless argument, no? And the other problems, well, the waste can be reused if you build the breed reactors, and the risks could be well mitigated if you ACTUALLY STOPPED RELYING ON TECHNOLOGY FROM THE SEVENTIES!!!

Denmark has gotten to the point where it generates 160 percent of it's electrical needs from wind power. It's now selling that excess to it's neighbors.

Solar Panel efficiency has gotten to the point where energy can be collected even from cloudy days.

And you seem to overlook the real security issue with breeder reactors... that their primary output is the kind of fissionable material you need to make atomic bombs, which is why they were invented in the first place.

You also ignore the plain facts of physics. Nuclear waste produced by fission is LONG LIVED waste... waste that remains toxic for longer than any Human civilization has ever lasted. Breeder reactors still generate waste... and there is that security thing I mentioned before.

You seem to be fixated on the idea that ONLY one technology can be implemented to meet our energy needs. The truth of the matter is that multiple technologies can and SHOULD be developed as opposed to just subsidizing the status quo, which includes nuclear power.

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I wonder how many men still cringe when Rory Williams describes himself as a nurse.

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I always tell my players that when I start a new campaign, I will have them all come from the same region.. This has several advantages.

1. Common knowledge... there are places, people, and things known to all of the characters. There will be characters they know, love, and despise. And when things happen to those people it will have meaning.

2. Commonality, love, hate it, or don't care, they all have a common homeland and heritage.

3. It allows me to concentrate on localized world-building, when you start out as peasants in the Valley of Hugh, you don't need knowledge of the continents and oceans on the other side of the planet. For now, your locality IS your world.

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Gamerskum wrote:

What happens to the people of Rahadoum?!

Bad things probably.. they aren't even atheists.. they know the gods exist and collectively telling them we hate you go F off. The Worst gods have super bad things planed and even the best gods has to have some pretty stern punishment lined up.

They get exactly what they wish...a quiet eternity in the Boneyard with no dieties, demons, or angels to disturb them. As seen in "Death's Heretic". The protagonist's chief fear is that Pharasma will never release him to join them.

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xeose4 wrote:

Since the thread is about power levels, and people have been asking about different aspects of the gods...

What happens when a demon lord or empyreal lord ascends to god-status? Specifically, I am thinking of one mentioned in a certain AP. When (or if) that one ascended, they transformed their portfolio and alignment. Did they also ascend in power too? Or is it that they're just "well sort of marginally stronger" but still at the demon/empyreal lord level? Along that line, can a deity lose divinity? Specifically I am thinking of 3.5's old system where you could have like "divinity - 0" and they're like a local saint that has one single shrine and that's about it.

The answer is as always: It depends on what kind of story you want to write. You're asking for a rules answer in an area where rules do not exist. Might as well try to divide by zero.

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We learn to accept PFS's "Timey Wimey" aspect with a helping of tongue and cheek.

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thaX wrote:
Hurricane Katrina changed a lot of the weather pattern ten years ago, warping the Jet Stream as it made New Orleans into a giant swimming pool. Anyone forget that the tragedy could have been lessened if the levies would have been built to spec to be able to divert water around the city? Those were not built because it would have impacted some tree frog or cricket or something, so it was made into a worse situation because of the very same type of folks that wring their hands and pout about "global Warming" and how man is causing it.

You've got it backwards. Hurricane Katrina did not change our weather patterns. Hurricane Katrina, and storms like Sandy are THE RESULT of our changing weather patterns.

And while I hate to disturb a anti-progressive, anti-environmentalist, rant, I might suggest looking at some facts of the matter instead.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_levee_failures_in_Greater_New_Orleans

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Nohwear wrote:
Here is the thing though, what may seem to be an ungodly hodgepodge to you may actually be their attempt to build just the right character to fit their concept and background. In other words, using a lot of different books may actually be a sign that your players are trying to build interesting characters as much as much as it can signify character that are nothing but name and numbers.

Yes that's true, but usually, it IS an ungodly hodgepodge created to exploit a mechanical advantage thinly disguised by a flimsy attempt at creating a background.

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Silver Surfer wrote:

I will probably be starting a Call of Cthulu adventure soon and it got me wondering, I know there are Evil and some Neutral elder gods but could there be some Good or Lawful aligned ones designed in the pipeline?

I saw somewhere there is scheduled a publication regarding the Elder Gods?

Absolutely none. You don't really get it. The alignments assigned to Outer Gods aren't assigned for the same reason you give an evil alignment to someone like Norgorber who is still understandably human in his motivtions even if he is a bastard.

In comparison howver the Outer Gods are so alien, they are completey incapable of showing empathy to anything mortal or euclidean based life forms in general. They are so alien in nature that their very presence causes sanity and reality to distort and fragment around them. To even begin to try to understand the tiniest fraction of their worldview means distorting your own so much, that from the viewpoint of anyone else who's not as twisted as you've become, you've become a gibbering insane maniac.

To be perceived as Lawful Good to someone else means that you have an empathic understanding of that someone and feel sympathy for them.

If a divine being could do this it would by Lovecraft's definition not be an outer god at all.

In short to borrow his phrasing an Outer God is a divine being for whom the best you could hope for is never to be noticed by it at all.

That pretty much excludes goodness out of the equation, but leaves a world of room for evil of the neutral and chaotic variety.

Keep in mind that a worldview that includes the Outer Gods isn't a world where law, chaos, evil, and good are in balance... It is where the bulk of the universe from time on end is screaming gibbering insanity, (from our perspective) and what we call reality is merely a temporary respite from all encompassing Chaos. The outer gods operate on a mindset that we can no more understand than we could hope to perceive the fourth and higher dimensions.

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Kirth Gersen wrote:

As an old 1e grognard, I think the disconnect is this:

Back in the day, there weren't any actual rules for most of the stuff the characters did -- or at least not any consistent ones (unarmed combat charts in the DMG, anyone? Swimming rules in the A4 module of all places?). So, for the most part, they made up a character with a very limited set of defined abilities, and you spitballed the rest.

There's a lot of freedom in that approach, because the only limit on what you could do was the player's ability to sell the DM on it. To many people, though, this damaged verisimilitude, and made the whole process seem adversarial, because it generally meant the whole game was a frustrating, protracted session of "Mother May I." Everyone wanted to be the DM so they could tell everyone else what they could and couldn't do.

In 3e/PF, there are rules dictating what you can and can't do (sadly, the rules dictating what martial characters can't do seem to have gotten out of hand, but that's another story). This means that the player can't just say, "Before I go into the ball I put a flower in my lapel -- maybe it will give me a bonus to Diplomacy" -- because they know it won't. However, Paizo, seeing this, has probably released a convoluted trait, archetype, or feat chain somewhere that DOES let you do that. So that's where the 15 secondary rulebook references come in.

TL;DR: In a system like Pathfinder, with actual rules for everything, you have to expect that people will make use of them. If you want a system in which you just declare stuff and ask the DM if it works, something like Amber Diceless is ideal for that.

Amber Diceless however is a disaster in the making when players and GMs have a relationship that's based on anything other than absolute trust and a mutual committment to running a game.

Players who can't differentiate the important and subtle difference between "My GM is trying to kill my character" and "My GM's NPC's are trying to kill my character" need not apply.

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My Self wrote:

I was wondering, what alignment do you think each class seems to be flavored and set up by default? Paladins are always lawful good, so the default would be lawful good. Monks can be any lawful, but when I think of a monk without seeing a backstory, I think LN. For barbarians, CN, because they go berserk and smash stuff. For rogues, I think they're a very N class, just because of how much some of the Rogue Talents emphasize stealing stuff and running away. Not that monks or barbarians can't be things other than LN or CN, but this is what I feel that the class flavor seems to gravitate to most.

Anybody have any opinions on what each class's default alignment is?

The only class with a default alignment is Paladin. (and his reverse mirror cousin, for you sticklers out there.)

Some of the others have a restricted range. The only other class that should have a default alignment would be a cleric, who should default to that of his or her patron.

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Ylem wrote:
I've heard it said that he ascended (to Heaven or wherever) after the creation of Absalom. Is that correct? But he was around to kill Tar-Baphon in 896 AR. and when did the Starfall Doctrine come into place?

Aroden did not become a deity from raising the starstone. It was given to him as a deal for keeping the starstone away from every tom dick and harriet who would access it's power.

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Weirdo wrote:


Becoming a lich protects you from death both from old age and violence, and it's achievable by an 11th level caster of any class (albeit with great effort and expense). Is it any surprise that there are some downsides to the process, like a loss of empathy?

To do what you have to do to achieve lichdom, pretty much implies a lack of empathy already.

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Butlers like Alfred and Jarvis aren't just servants, they're household managers. You don't see them cleaning up and dusting that much either.

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Serghar Cromwell wrote:
LazarX wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
LazarX wrote:
How many mass murdering sociopaths in history do you think have "redeemed" themselves? Spoiler: The answer is NONE.
Have you read the iconic Slayer's backstory?

Despite his past, he's no Hannibal Lector. He did his killing for a cause (and a goddess mind you) that he believed in, not because of the utter lack of empathy of Alec Baldwin's trademark character.

There's also no evidence that he either regrets his actions, or has changed his viewpoint.

Alec Baldwin?

Alec Baldwin, Anthony Hopkins, one head, two arms, two legs, all you Humans look and taste alike.

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Milo v3 wrote:
LazarX wrote:


Sure, just blithely ignore the fact that in order to choose the path, you were a mass murdering SOB who killed tons of innocent people in horrific ways to get there to start with. You're talking about someone who was essentially a sociopath on the order of Jeffrey Dahmer or Hannibal Lector combined with a megalomanical power fixation to boot.

Those kind of people don't simply wake up one morning and decide to become angels. In fact, they never do.

What if they became a lich only to stop a greater evil that they have prophifised to defeat... but in 350 years. So they used lichdom to ensure they would be there, and in the time between now and then, simply continued to commit good acts to try and redeem their "For the greater good" evil acts.

Note: This isn't a hypothetical to just make an extreme example, this was an NPC I've used previously.

1. Prophecy is garbage... at least in Golarion, Prophecy has a reliable metric for actions went permanently south the day Aroden died. Anyone who studies enough arcane knowledge to research lichdom, will know that fact. There are also many ways of dealing with a far future threat... You're just choosing one method out of expediency... wrapped around a core of narcissism.

2. You're essentially putting for "The Ends Justify The Means" argument. By the non-subjective standards of Good and Evil which the game runs on... that doesn't fly. You simply can not deliberately walk the path of lichdom without a major lack of empathy for the suffering and murder you cause... or the insane delusion that you're not...(which does not exempt you from being evil, it just certifies your insanity that warps your self-perception.)

3. Your argument is much like those players who argue that they'll be neutral by alternating between sinner and saint, as if Good and Evil are simply flip sides of the same coin.

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Talonhawke wrote:
So between this and the threads on slavery, how does one even play anything other than a true neutral fighter with no ties. I seriously want to know. I see threads where even the thought of raising the dead should have you kicked out of the game. But having strong religious beliefs could also be being a jerk. Owning slaves is being a jerk and needs to be abolished, but if you press your anti-slavery Andoran feelings to hard its also a problem. Is this more of a board thing or is playing anything with a belief system possibly asking for trouble.

You play by remembering the special circumstances of this game. Your character is a member of the Society, first and foremost, beyond any other considerations. This includes class, race, nationality, creed, or faction. It's that big unstated rule which is part of every character created in PFS, whether trained at Absalom, or field commissioned in the wilderness.

As part of that character conception, you either include this particular campaign conceit, or you come up with a different character that does, as this part of the campaign is non-negotiable.

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Talib Aguiye Ironsi wrote:

(I have a feeling this will be another one of those long threads about alignments that ultimately gets locked)

@ThePuppyTurtle: This topic can be summed up in one overarching general statement:

Expect Table Variation

And that goes for both players and GMs. There is no one way to roleplay or deal with an issue such as this, and people who believe there is will have to learn to loosen up. It's like the old Paladin vs Necromancer debate. Some people worry about making a Necromancer and being unable to play it in a group of Paladins, but seldom do people worry about making a Paladin and being unable to play it in a group of Necromancers. You just need to tweak the way you analyze roles and look at everything from multiple perspectives.

Using myself as an example, I have two characters that own slaves: one's your typical Chelaxian, and one's a Paladin.

My Paladin of Rowdrosh, the Divine Herdsman, believes that there is nothing wrong with lawful slavery. He'd be a hypocrite to condemn gnolls for purchasing and selling humans when he does the same thing with cows and goats. The level of sentience involved only increases the amount of care that's required.

I'm pretty sure I remember at least one Coryani Paladin in Living Arcanis, that was an unabashed slaveholder. He did have high standards on taking care of them though. He also did not hesitate to enslave two Nyambi Amazons that had intended to do the same to him.

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Alric Rahl wrote:

Whats The point of owning a Slave then?? if they have no stats and you get no mini for the board why spend the gp?? seems like a waste to me. I would want a slave to carry my pack, hold a torch, stand watch at night and warn of danger, possibly pick locks and or send them forward as a way to search for traps. The last one being if I was evil.

Otherwise there is no point to owning a slave other than to say "Hey look I own a slave"....

That IS the point.

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There hasn't been much about the Hunter because as classes go, it's largely free of controversial baggage. It's not a big appeal for munchkin players, so that's another factor.

Personally, I think it's a good solid class for someone who's been lookng to play a druid/ranger hybrid.

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Zhangar wrote:


My own impression from the article is that Vox Day doesn't even believe in any of the crap he spouts; he simply tries to make the world a worse place for fun.

A person may not be a racist at heart, but if he starts wearing a white hood and sets crucifixes on fire, as far as I'm concerned, he's a Klansman, and will be regarded as such.

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Nadlor wrote:
But that's for items activated by command words, right? ...... "mentally willing the activation" also supposed to be a standard action?

Yes. Unless specifically stated otherwise, item power activations are standard actions.

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James Sutter wrote:

As Kalindlara mentioned, I think Nightglass does a wonderful job of illustrating what life is like in Nidal. But even then, that's for someone raised to the priesthood—a "normal" person's life in Nidal probably isn't all that different from a normal person's life in Cheliax. Just because your state-sponsored religion is based on pain and evil doesn't mean you don't still have a family, friends, a job, hobbies...

Honestly, North Korea's a little bit *less* believable to me than Nidal. But that's just my opinion. :P

With all respect, after reading the Nidal novels, life in Nidal sounds very much like how it was in the Pol Pot ruled Kampuchea (Cambodia for the average not up to speed American) illustrated in "The Killing Fields", whch was extremely horriffic for the average person, who lived in constant fear of the enforces showing up and dragging people away never to be seen again.

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Jester David wrote:
The thing is, technological advancement never really stopped. There was no time the world went backwards. Bits of information and certain techniques were lost, but technology as a whole only ever progressed.

Again... you're mistaking our time for the way the past operates. The "world" as a whole didn't move forward together until very recently in our species history. (and there are still plenty of areas that lag behind even today) Most advances were made in isolation, and died along with the civilizations that created them. We are still trying to rediscover certain ancient techniques, such as the building of ocean crossing reed boats, the construction techniques of Macchu Picchu, and the Pyramids of Egypt. And we're still working out the fine details on how the stones of Stonehenge were transported and erected....

(and no... ancient astronauts are not even in the running, in case you're going to ask)

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Gaberlunzie wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Weirdo wrote:


I would suggest requiring the paladin to find a way to return the succubus paladin to life (a limited wish spell, at least) and then performing one service at her bequest, such as redeeming a tiefling.

Too trite and pat for my taste, and it requires high powered magic which means bringing in super NPC's in most cases.

My favored resolution would require the Paladin to serve in her shoes. Having the succubus remain dead, reinforces the idea that there are choices you can't take back.

Ehh. Limited wish scrolls don't have to be that hard to get one's hands on, nor require access to high-level characters.

However, I do think that having the succubus remain dead can be an important lesson in not being able to take back our sins. As Weirdo says though, I'm not sure doing her job is either possible nor fitting.

Some kind of atonement that is more than just shelling out a few thousand GP's would be appropriate, but as Weirdo suggested, redeeming other evil characters, through non-combat means, could be such a duty.

Both you and Weirdo don't seem to get it. It's precisely BECAUSE the succubus' role is so opposite of Mr. Sword Happy, that makes it the perfect form of penance. The idea of redemption is not to just provide another excuse to cover himself in glory and blood, it's to grind in some humility and remind him who and what he's supposed to be fighting for.

That's a choice. Another choice of course is to simply lay waste to the ungrateful bastards. (Because surely they must be so) and take another step down The Road of Arthas.

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Weirdo wrote:


I would suggest requiring the paladin to find a way to return the succubus paladin to life (a limited wish spell, at least) and then performing one service at her bequest, such as redeeming a tiefling.

Too trite and pat for my taste, and it requires high powered magic which means bringing in super NPC's in most cases.

My favored resolution would require the Paladin to serve in her shoes. Having the succubus remain dead, reinforces the idea that there are choices you can't take back.

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Again, can we get out of the Paladin fall mentality as the only means to bring out consequences of a bad decision?

Like I said before, I would not strip the Paladin of his powers in this scenario.

But that doesn't mean he's gotten off scot free. Actions have consequences, and if the Succubus Paladin helped and saved a lot of people, he's going to face blowback from his actions.

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Aratrok wrote:
Nohwear wrote:
Using a book chain to attach it to your belt.
How are you presenting it, then? Do you need to perform a crotch thrust as part of casting your spells?

The proper term is "pelvic thrust"

Transylvanian Information Archives

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Shaun wrote:

Ha. You just zeroed in on two of my least favorite things about Golarion: The apparent lack of technological advancement in a world over thousands of years and Nidal.

Do you understand that that was EXACTLY the case for most of Earth's history? In perhaps thirty five thousand years of human existence, many civilisations had innovations that died with them, because the things you take for granted, such as mass education, mass communication, cheap printing, the vectors which enabled technology to take off like a rocket in the 19th and later centuries DID NOT EXIST. About ninety percent of total technological and scientific progress was made in the lifetimes of you and your parents.

Prior to then technology and scientific progress was a mix of fitful isolated starts with frequent reverses... like the Dark Ages, and the burning of the Library of Alexandria, the collapse of civilisation on Rapa Nui (Easter Island)

The thing is Nidal isn't just a cult flourishing isolated in a jungle, it is a land that exists the way it does because of a compact made with a diety....whose influence and power are real.

It's the price that's the flipside of abundant magic, it's a lot easier to suppress and eliminate changes which would upset the applecart.

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Yes, Witches can blast, but one has to ask, why take this particular road? What is it about a witch that appeals to you? (BTW, there is no "right" answer to this question.) Answering that question is a help in making sure the path you walk is the one you really want to take.

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Pixie, the Leng Queen wrote:

Ok so a lot of people are to distracted by the contrived scenerio in the other thread so this is for a much more focused core discussion.

What happens when a Paladin's Oath goes against her Code of Conduct?

The example I gave before was a good aligned undead with a Paladin with Oath vs Undead. By all rights, the Paladin is MANDATED to kill the undead. The oath even specifically mentions that they know there ARE good undead. But they do not care. They are of a mindset that undead=thing to be killed. But killing a good person (even if they are undead) is generally considered bad by many people.

Or the Oath vs chaos and a chaotic good person...

Or the Oath of Vengence as a whole. They are not allowed to let a minor evil deter their quest...

So for a more focused discussion on THIS TOPIC, what do you guys think? How would you handle a conflict in Oath vs Code.

1. You took a piece of the Oath and you're interpreting it out of context.

A paladin with this oath vows to restore the natural state of death to any animate corpse she encounters, and destroy the undead energy in the process. While a few paladins who take this oath recognize that not all undead are evil, others are quite willing to purge neutral and good undead along with all the evil ones.

The passage refers to the fact that a few Paladins do realize that some undead are not evil, while others do not. In direct opposite to what you claim, it flat out states that there ARE variations in viewpoint among those who take the Oath. It's narrow focused mistakes like these that cause problems with interpreting Oaths.

2. This passage clearly shows what has priority.

If a paladin violates the code of her oath, she loses the class abilities associated with that oath until she atones. If she violates her paladin’s code, she loses her oath abilities as well as her other paladin abilities.

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HeHateMe wrote:
Wizards are a heck of alot more powerful than a paladin, but I don't see a thousand threads about whether a GM should take a wizard character's magic away.

You've missed all the threads about players being paranoid about GM's targeting their spellbooks, to the point where they felt the GM was having their NPCs go to suicidal lengths to steal or destroy them.

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Rynjin wrote:
You have put me in a very, very good mood.

The apocalypse is among us.

Rynjin wrote:

Of course I could care less about anything but the MoMS buff. =p

*breathes a sigh of relief* Never mind, carry on.

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Would you be extremely upset if I told you that your new avatar makes you look like a victim of Joker's patented Smile poison?

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Shadowkire wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Shadowkire wrote:


Where does it say they don't/can't micromanage?

If they don't micromanage how would a god know his paladin violated the code BUT doesn't know when to stop the paladin before s/he does something wrong with his/er powers?

The reason they don't micromanage is to keep the agency (and the responsibility) on the player for his/her own actions. Unlike the gods who are very circumscribed in both the actions they take and the perceptions they have, the player characters are the agents with free will. So they don't have the Nuremburg style "My god made me do it" defense.

This is shown by the fact that Sarenrae is still granting powers to the Qadirans who conquer in her name even though they violate her tenets almost constantly. And in how "Death's Heretic" Pharasma continued to answer the prayers and grant spells to her increasingly apostate cleric while she sent the title character as her agent to deal with him if he did not learn the error of his ways.

So what you are saying is that Abadar sees his paladin is about to attack a demon paladin and despite thinking it is wrong for his agent to do that keeps powering the paladin. THEN, when the LG succubus is already dead, he takes the paladin's powers away?

What I'm saying is that players have agency at least in my games. How GM's decide to handle blowback is up to each individual GM. In my scenario the Paladin does not get his powers stripped because he acted before thinking. However in that same scenario the Paladin is going to have other things to worry about, such as being put on trial for his actions, actions which may mean he gets executed for murder.

I do believe that actions have consequences. I also believe we need more variety than the olld "Turn the Paladin's powers off" deal. We need more granularity than "all on or all off."

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Kryzbyn wrote:
I'd like to see a divorce from the OGL, to be honest. Get rid of the backwards compatibility that holds the system back, and do what they want.

You do understand that without the OGL, Pathfinder, and most likely Paizo itself would not exist today?

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Bard-Sader wrote:
So, what should happen to the paladin of Abadar? His patron deity isn't particularly good, and he has sworn to oppose chaos. Does Abadar still take away his paladin powers?

No... but he will face the in-world consequences of killing someone who was effectively Mother Theresa. He may have his Paladin powers, but he'll still be facing a village that may very well turn on him and string him up, and none of the smites he has will save him from their justified wrath.

What people seem to forget is that loss of Paladin powers is not the only possible consequence for a Paladin who screws up the way this one did.

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