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Your example is a flat 10% lower chance to hit, shooting 25% more often. Thank you for agreeing with me and illustrating my point :-)
Also, obviously my fighter levels can be archer fighter levels as well. No loss of functionality there. The archer fighter can't use gloves of dueling, but the sohei can, this makes up for much of the lost attack progression. I can't see the drawback to diversifying.
Never take mounted combat feats for archery, they're terrible and don't justify the loss of the feat.
The only thing this guy is doing is putting a lot of arrows in the air. A Sohei archer can technically stack flurry with rapid shot and multishot to get the greatest number arrows out. I don't even think the sohei mounted combat feats replace the monk feat list, just augment them.
The only other thing you can do to fire more arrows is take the improved snapshot like with combat reflexes, but it's hard to afford on the monk feat budget.
The monk has a jump off at 8th when he gets his second flurry attack, waiting out the third at 15th is probably not worth it. I would say you stack any full BAB type after that (fighter being obvious to make up for a lack of feats). Optionally take a level of empyrial sorcerer and go eldritch knight (assuming you build in an early entry for it) for the buffs and a couple extra feats.
Monk1 PBS, Combat Reflexes, Precise Shot
We have an ongoing campaign consisting of an alchemist (with trapfinding from the campaign trait), a deathless barbarian and a conjurer wizard. We've got a melee paladin who has been spotty on attendance due to real life issues.
I'm looking for a setup that a new player can get into. My initial thought is a generalist cleric (we do not ask our clerics to heal in combat, we don't need it and we don't want to burden a player with a forced role). I feel the ability to full cast, get up into melee and participate in the campaign discussion with some diplomacy will be a solid start to PF. The benefits of a cleric on a campaign focused on undead are pretty obvious.
Any suggestions on a character and build?
The problem with most OP builds is they take no defense into account. Why not be invincible? The Deathless Barbarian build has been all over the boards for some time, I'm playing it in my current AP and it's really great. The ability to wade into the enemy completely surrounded and come out of it with no injury is really astounding. Not caring about AC is tremendous.
1 Barbarian1 Power Attack, Endurance
TWF is really horrible, you only get the benefit of this massive feat investment when you full attack. You won't be full attacking all the time, and maybe not even most of the time. Don't waste your time on that.
You can DPR calculate TWF any way you like it, but in a real AP where you have to move and attack all the time it's horrible, and even when you get to use it it's at a penalty.
On the other hand a thug/scout rogue with a big two hander, hurtful, cleave and surprise follow through has nicely invested his feats into places that compliment his abilities. Building for the worst case scenario of moving and then attacking, while still getting multiple attacks off is pretty awesome.
Fighter1 Power Attack, Cleave, Hurtful
First attack of the round:
Even without cleaving he's got a good chance of attacking twice due to hurtful.
I would say cleave becomes his primary method of attack. In later levels, with Escape Route and a valet familiar he's getting no attacks of opportunity triggered by movement, which is of great benefit to him.
Ranged rogue is by far better off simply buying a goz mask and getting a familiar to drop smoke sticks for him, or using a wand with obscuring mist on it. Any other method of obtaining range sneak attack for a rogue has a lot of feats associated with it and rely on dazzling display.
Also, grease doesn't deny anyone their dex.
I think this is where having NPCs really helps, where you can sum up the situation the players face and give them their options without going outside of the game too much. As you help them along they'll begin to think more for themselves, but the story elements can be difficult to tie together for players sometimes.
Yes, it's horrible when your players have a sense of direction with their characters and understand what it's going to take to make them effective. Wanting to play a person who is amazing with a whip, coupled with planning to take whip mastery and improved whip mastery so they can actually deal damage is totally game breaking.
On top of that, it's likely the player will want a whip. I mean, what the heck is that player thinking? He should totally give up his ideas.
(...) Pretty sure the DM is already going to be unhappy with the raw damage I will be putting out without the added fun of dazing anything I don't kill outright.(...)
Then your DM really wont like a standard barbarian or just about any archer, since they do more damage in a given AP adventuring day. The only thing that makes the evoker so good is the ability to tie control to that limited damage, it makes them really excellent IMO.
I think investing a feat into breaking things is kind of wasted. I've never really run into a situation where having feats invested into breaking things would have made me better at breaking things on my barbarians(since a zero feat investment broke my targets anyway).
Stunning Irruption is practically written out of every adventure anyway. APs seem to go through the trouble of setting you up to get surprised and writing out ways for the party to get the drop on things. Wasting a feat on something the game is actively preventing you from using most of the time is a total waste. In any even it's an ability you'd use at most once a session, a really minor perk for a large investment of a feat.
Spiked destroyer is one free attack that eats your swift action, I think it's small beans compared to vicious stomp.
Dragon style is 100% needed by this build since an overrun can (and should) be used as part of a charge to maximize what you're doing and it lets you ignore friendlies.
I almost think an urban barbarian would be the best choice here to maximize the number of vicious stomps you'd get (and later on having come and get me is awesome)
This is how I would build it:
Barbarian1 Power Attack, Improved Overrun
I'm running ROTRL with a zen archer monk3/inquisitor X build. Essentially this becomes a single stat class with a lot of casting and versatility to add to the total archery dominance. This is probably the best inquisitor multiclass I've seen. With the inquisition domain the player is able to be the focal point of all the interactions and also dominate skill checks and combat pretty well.
Exactly my point. The magus used a high DPR build and the ranger and fighter chose not to use a high DPR build. OP is pointing out the disparity as though it's a class problem, but the problem is really that when you build for performance you perform better.
Sounds like your best player is playing magus, or at least the only player who read a guide and purpose built for combat. Have him go archer or barbarian next time if you want to have some perspective on what high sustained DPR does.
Why are you trying to force a fix for sub optimal builds? If the players wanted to be really OP at combat they'd have done some reading and built a character who is good at combat. Maybe the fighter just wanted to wield two weapons, the fighter was focused on role playing and image and that's fine.
Can you tell me where it says you can have an oil of ghost touch? I've never seen this, and normally ghost touch is expensive to achieve.
People think archery is viable for a WP because it is, and TWF is in fact less so. Just look at the stats. An archer WP with 14 str, 17 dex can get pretty much everything he needs and the 14 str is only for + damage. The TWF WP needs a as high as he can get for strength, at least 17ish dex for prereqs and he's doing all that so he can spend half his time moving between targets not benefiting from his additional attacks.
It's not that the WP is bad at TWF, it's that TWF is pretty crappy for everyone who lacks a pounce mechanic.
I was just responding to the 'TWF is very, very weak' statement, because generalizations that encourage bland building annoy me. The most fun builds are often taking a weird, non-ideal concept and making it work well if not perfectly, and TWF is an ideal non-ideal.
I see this from the other angle, I've found players who have wanted to use TWF become quickly discouraged because they get to use the mechanic less than they would like due to movement, and when they do use it they end up hitting less often and for less damage per round than a very simple 2h build would have.
mad Trev wrote:
I would say the most effective overall archer is the 1 fighter/1wizard/10EK/XAA/Xwiz build. It gets you pretty much the most versatility of anyone combined with top notch damage. You don't feel excluded later in the campaign either.
Everyone is focusing on the zen archer here because it's really simple to build and play, but his damage falls off at higher levels a bit and ultimately he faces the same issues all of them do with windwall and magic effects.
Meanwhile, the EK is basically god, dropping anti magic shells with imbue arrow turning high level wizards into severely disgruntled commoners. The most effective archer isn't the most damage, it's the one who is able to do the most stuff.
Magda Luckbender wrote:
You can call them idiots and say a 7 int is exceptionally stupid, but it isn't. If a 7 was exceptionally bad intelligence a 13 int would be exceptionally smart, but the truth is no one alters their roleplay for a 13 int or charisma because it's only a small increase, thus a 7 stat is completely under the radar.
You'd be significantly reducing the effectiveness of Bashing Finish if you did that. A keen Kukri will deliver slightly less damage on its own but grant you additional attacks for the sacrifice. You can enchant your sheild spikes to be keen, but the 19-20 threat range is underwhelming for that purpose.
When you say "effective melee at low levels" what you really mean is a guy with power attack and a two handed weapon of any class. Until level 7 or so, nothing really keeps up except in a few very specific situations. Let's take my combat rogue Grud:
I like to dip weapon master fighter at level 1 and then more of it after 10 to get weapon training. I like half orc, and the following build assumes rogues are awesome, and everyone on the boards is just playing them wrong.
The rogue levels go Scout/Thug or Scout/Swashbuckler, but thug is almost immaterial and only good for debuffing. Swashbuckler gives you a second combat feat, which you can use to take Cornugan Smash if you like. Often I find myself unable to charge, and Surprise Follow-Through actually saves my bacon a fair bit because I can move freely and still get a few attacks off.
A Mighty Cleaving weapon is really nice for this guy for this reason since the cleave target is denied dex and you can use your second cleave attack on him. Three attacks at full BAB is pretty nice for a rogue at any level.
A slew of quickrunner shirts eventually assures you some sneak attacks.
Anytime you do get a full attack, you can use your orcish bite to get additional sneak attacks.
Fighter1: Power Attack, Cleave
After this, I'd invest in TWF if you can get the dex for it. Dispelling Strike, Crippling Strike and Opportunist are great, with Crippling Strike being blatantly game breaking. I've seen an 11th level rogue who just took this talent get locked in the room with the BBEG of the adventure path at that level. As it turns out the BBEG was actually locked in the room with the rogue, and combat only lasted a couple of rounds before the boss ran out of strength.
Read Shatter Defenses and Violent Display, they're pretty amazing. Cornugon Smash is a bit overkill IMO, but there is never enough ways to sneak attack for some.
Ideally, you want a bard or skald in the party with you. They really make your life easy.
I can't believe this is still being discussed. It's not even optimal to do, you're far better off taking a high crit offhand and a large shield mainhand to trigger more shield attacks on crit.
If you're saying this isn't welcome at your table, then you're only encouraging players away from something sub optimal they might want to try. Why not give them more options than two kukris or kukri/large shield?
I love the "You can't prove this exists" thing in here... no one was ever asked to provide historic evidence of magic spells being used on the battlefield. It's fantasy, and fantasy is inherently built in the minds of the players.
Magda Luckbender wrote:
Consider dumping Int to 7. The Int penalty to skill points is applied before the racial bonus you get from being human and before your favored class bonus. You're essentially only losing one skill point in dumping.
Too many "tank" builds focus too heavily on survivability, and not enough on actually being a threat. Having a huge bag of hit points and saves/DR/whatever is all well and good, but you still need to have reasons for the enemy to care enough to hit you. There is no aggro system in Pathfinder, and at a certain point enemies are going to be smart enough to ignore you and go for the mage in a dress behind you.
A 2h Barbarian with Power Attack will suffice, in my experience.
Chrome seemed to give me the best results. Firefox is having problems with google docs on some platforms right now.
I wonder what the warpriest can do. Hopefully it can keep up with the inquisitor.
Warpriests get no real additional damage mechanic. They get some extra feats, enough to snugly fit all the archery stuff they need. They provide a divine caster of some merit, but they aren't going to dominate DPR over any other archer.
Cao Phen wrote:
It's inferior to my +35/+35/+35/+35/+35/+35/+35/+35/+30/+30/+30/+30/+25/+25/+25/+25/+20/+20/+20 /+20 before haste. Once you're free to ignore the rules you can simply make stuff up as you like :-)
To get the answer you'd basically need to define what situation you mean highest DPR in. Is it single target? What monster type? Multiple targets in one encounter of the same monster type? Over the course of an entire AP (1-17)? Just until level 8?
Your question is so vague no one can possibly answer it because variables in party makeup and encounter type change the answer. You're not going to get good answers without asking specific questions.I can assure you every class shines at archer for different reasons, but asking for the best DPR you're marginalizing a couple who contribute great utility.
Assuming monks can use monk weapons with Pummeling Style (Temple sword/Sansetsukon), I think they just got fixed. I wouldn't call them weak at this point. A single style line gives them pounce in combination with the ability to crit fish effectively AND avoid the impact of DR. You'll still need to work hard to keep your hit bonus up but the monk is no slouch at this point.
Merchant Family is ridiculous. I've been using it on my character for ROTRL and I'm also the loot master (record all loot, sell loot after party agrees on distribution). I neglected to tell them about my bonus 10%, and it's essentially giving me a 40% bonus share. You can imagine how nice that is.
You should take a valet archetype familiar to double your craft output. Your 7th level feat needs to be improved familiar (faerie dragon if possible). You want max ranks on UMD so your familiar will be able to use items to fill in your missing illusion/enchantment spells and you'll have access to those schools when crafting.