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670 posts. Alias of Hatch240.


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Assuming monks can use monk weapons with Pummeling Style (Temple sword/Sansetsukon), I think they just got fixed. I wouldn't call them weak at this point. A single style line gives them pounce in combination with the ability to crit fish effectively AND avoid the impact of DR. You'll still need to work hard to keep your hit bonus up but the monk is no slouch at this point.

Merchant Family is ridiculous. I've been using it on my character for ROTRL and I'm also the loot master (record all loot, sell loot after party agrees on distribution). I neglected to tell them about my bonus 10%, and it's essentially giving me a 40% bonus share. You can imagine how nice that is.

You should take a valet archetype familiar to double your craft output. Your 7th level feat needs to be improved familiar (faerie dragon if possible). You want max ranks on UMD so your familiar will be able to use items to fill in your missing illusion/enchantment spells and you'll have access to those schools when crafting.

" those who associate with these creatures"

That's a strictly RP/flavor clause. So you're from a family of adventurers who adopted a couple of weretiger cubs they couldnt stomach putting down or leaving to die. They got older, turned on the family and fled. News cropped up of their arrival in your new campaigns area and BAM. Here you are, a slayer hunting down his parents error in judgement.

Your point buy is wrong for both math and efficiency. You always put your racial boost into your highest adjusted stat or you're wasting it.

You're both putting a +2 into a low stat? It's worth far less there.

They would seem to make pretty ideal archers, able to combine some relatively nice self buffs with all the feats you would want (except early access to IPS) Using 9th level to grab both snapshot and improved snapshot is good economy.

I have this prebuilt! You need a level of fighter at 7 to really capitalize on everything and score two build critical feats:

Slayer1 PBS, (Human) Precise, (Bonus)Deadly Aim
Slayer2 Archery Style: Rapid Shot
Slayer3 Combat Reflexes
Slayer4 Weapon Focus: Bow
Slayer5 dazzling display
Slayer6 Archery Style: Improved Precise Shot, Human FCB: Trapfinding (Or anything really)
Fighter1 shatter defenses, Violent Display
Slayer8 Improved Snapshot, Combat Trick: Snap Shot
Slayer10 Manyshot, Ranger: Point Blank Master
Slayer12 Any Feat, Human FCB: Opportunist

Go read violent display and be impressed. You will want to keep a few of the free runner shirts so you get right up into combat if needed and you can intimidate. It's best to use both the bow enchant and trait from Erastil out of the more recent faiths guide. They let you actually ignore party members for cover so you can get off your AOOs even with two melee guys in the way.

Advanced class guide is out now, you really need to take a hard look at the slayer, there is no reason to run multiclass at this point.

Keen is a dead end, and delays the onset of your ultimate goal of +4 Furious Courageous. Just get a scabbard of keen edges, which is cheaper in the long run and gives you 3 hours a day of keen in one hour increments.

and excellent idea, but I believe you can't intentionally fail a save with superstition running.

This actually drastically increases the value of Summon Good Monster, because of the later LG creatures on that list fixing the issues good priests have had with summoning.

Rulership seems fine, one round and a pretty low save so it's only impacting the mooks. I think it's fairly interesting. Also factor in that this character can't afford to invest in many (if any) feats for channeling.

Magda Luckbender wrote:
awesome evangelist stuff

So what does the feat build look like for you? I've been trying to make this work for a LN Iomedae (tactics) cleric using negative rulership channeling and using the flagbearer/BOAK later in the game with a sub focus in channeling. I found that because I needed to invest in lingering performance and flagbearer in addition to selective channel I'm out of feats for summon, and the only way to channel negative is by being LN which eliminates the possibility of sacred summons I believe.

How would you suggest I structure this?

You're assuming that the DC is 10 for your numbers, which it may not be in reality. You're also assuming a lot of rerolling on very few actual rolls. I suspect it won't play out. A TWF ranger at three encounters per day and 7 rounds per encounter is throwing a lot of dice.

Let's assume 2/3 rounds full attacking at level 12 (PFS cap)

That comes out to 6 attacks a round but only 27 attacks for the encounter due to the rounds you're taking single attacks after moving.

81 attacks /

(ranger level *.5) + 3 + 1 = 10 rerolls for the day

that's 12% of your rolls you can take advantage of it, and it's only a 10% improvement on those.

It's not enough to make me change my estimates. You're still talking a net 1.2% improvement.

Of course if you're already taking eater of magic you had the superstition power before this (hopefully in conjunction with the human FCB) and you were making your saves anyway. A feat for a very rare +2 is sort of wasted on this guy, he won't need it.

Strong comeback can't be the centerpiece of a build because it's a bad feat with no real support around it in the way of regular rerolls for which a +2 is significant enough to justify the feat itself. You're talking about a 10% increased chance to make the reroll, which is a roll you only make some percentage of the time when you fail AND when you have a mechanic in place to allow a reroll.

In summation, getting a 10% bonus on 10% of your rolls is a 1% increase, and that's really paltry.

I'd try to talk the player into running a regular or OOV paladin for the archer. The divine hunter is a bad archetype IMO. If you can't talk him into swapping (especially now that he's fifth and the free feat at first level has diminished value) I'd let him just take the mount instead, who is it hurting?

Paladin baggage is relative to how difficult your GM wants it to be and how good you (as a player) are at fending off GM-based rules oppression. Default paladin by PF rules only is great to play. Some GMs remember other editions and throw additional non-core stuff at you.

I'm assuming your GM is not going to make the paladin hard to play, so I would say you're safe either way.

Imbicatus wrote:
Evangelist Performance is based off Wisdom, not Charisma.

Could you cite a source? It's not listed that way here or here. The Evangelist uses charisma for performance according to my sources.

Adding to Akerlof, a reach based evangelist cleric with his inspire songs and also with summoning is possibly the ultimate combination of things to do with a cleric. This especially true with a banner of the ancient kings and the flag bearer feat. There will always be something to do besides healing with this build.

It sounds like you're pretty new, so instead of explaining why AC is a losing battle I'll just recommend you spend a lot of time reading the forums about bard optimization and using the search feature. Read the guides and spend some time figuring things out for yourself. It's nearly impossible to screw up a bard, and they're a ton of fun.

The best investment I made early was a glove of storing and a metamagic rod of quicken spell. Being able to begin a performance, cast Haste AND Good Hope when the BBEG rears his ugly head is like turning your party into instant supermen.

You're talking about boosting AC, but you're an archer bard. You should be finding ways to avoid having to rely on your AC anyway. Simple positioning and avoidance will yield far more return than investment into AC. You have mirror image for gods sake, which is worth more than +5 plate under most circumstances. I'd advise against investing in armor.

Shamans apprentice forces you out of the intimidate bonus, which was fine with me. (See here.)

Half orc, as required per deathless initiate.

If you're using a reach weapon and you position yourself to game it well, it's my opinion CR will serve you much better during levels 1 and 2. Power attack at 3 is practically mandatory though. I would not recommend toughness for a barbarian. Toughness is a larger boost the lower in HD you go, so it has its lowest return on investment for a d12HD.

I'll give you my barbarian build for my current campaign, so you can see what I'm doing. Taking invulnerable rager to stack up to 18ish DR including haste bonus in late levels. We're given a free feat at level 1 and I snagged endurance from the alternate racial ability:

Barbarian1 Power Attack, Endurance, Die Hard
Barbarian2 Guarded Life
Barbarian3 Extra Rage Power: Superstitious
Barbarian4 Reckless Assault
Unarmed Fighter1 Stalwart, IUS/Crane Style
Barbarian6 Deathless Initiate, Greater Guarded Life (6)
Barbarian8 Combat Reflexes, Internal Fortitude
Barbarian10 Improved Stalwart, Eater of Magic
Barbarian12 Extra Rage Power: Ghost Rager, Come and Get Me
Barbarian14 Quick Reflexes, Unexpected Strike

The only thing set in stone at level 12 and later is Come and Get me, I will probably shuffle the rest out to get spell sunder. To be clear I do not think guarded life and deathless initiate are ideal, I don't think I will be using them every fight or even in most fights. I just wanted to play a guy focused mostly on defense to see how it plays.

Fates Favored trait will add another +1 to your saves immediately (augmenting your tattoo luck bonus) and later you can pick up a luck stone or a crown of conquest to further capitalize on the luck bonus stacking. The jingasa of the fortunate soldier is good too, adding another luck bonus.

Keep in mind that initiative is classified as an ability check per RAW, so whenever something like a luckstone is giving you bonuses on ability checks it's to be included in initiative as well.

Not sure if it's sarcasm, but when I play a bard I feel like I'm constantly the star performer. Can't wait to play one again.

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Using "never heal in combat" is essentially a straw man, obviously, you do not want to lose a party member. People who want to emerge victorious from a one sided internet argument will hold it up as if that has been the discussion all along.

The reality is that hit points are a thing, and using almost all of them is the same as using none of them. There is no reason to heal up damage that won't kill someone.

I would submit that losing a rage power and 8k to an ioun stone, while also becoming immune to fatigue, exhaustion, and partially immune to nauseated and sickened is vastly superior than all other solutions. The Cord is twice as much and eats a slot (or increases further slot improvement by 50%). Level dipping costs you a lot in return for only one or two things.

Haco seems help resistant, and also Google-resistant. At some point Haco you're going to have to put this all together yourself and find the answers for yourself.

you dont need to take wizard to 5 anymore, that's the biggest weak point of the old EK build was the BAB dead zone between 2 and 6. Just qualify with the SLA from your race or from divination/scryer and you're golden for EK entry at 3rd.

oh certainly, but only a few powers are worth cycling for because you can only center your build around so many features. Powerful blow is a really weak rage power even if you rage cycle in light of the fact that it only gives you a very small bonus to one attack per round. On a good barbarian build you're going to have combat reflexes and come and get me, which makes Powerful Blow a very, very small bonus to one attack of probably 6-8 attacks in your round. Percentage-wise, it's garbage.

You would be better off getting unexpected strike to virtually guarantee yourself an additional attack every round instead. You would also be far better off with Witch Hunter, which adds this bonus on all attacks against targets that matter.

There's so many better rage powers to build around for rage cycling you literally will never need to reach so low as to grab a bad rage power like Powerful Blow.

Actually if you want a spelless ranger then just play a slayer. It's going to be twice as good now with the studied target getting sneak attack. It's one of the few characters with enough feats to score improved snapshot, and you can worship erastil for the ghetto improved precise shot trait.

That is likely the best non-EK archer now due to the versatility.

Fatigue is virtually a non issue, You rage for 5 rounds in a fight and then you're fatigued for 10 rounds after the fight is over. Most of the time you never even mark that you're fatigued because it's all out of combat. You don't really need to worry too much about it until later. Just pick up the internal fortitude power at 8th level and pay 8k for a Scarlet and Green Cabochon Ioun Stone. Not only does it get you rage cycling, it gives you a way to avoid some pretty bad status effects.

If you read the guides you will find what you're looking for.

Well, I think the magus hands down works best for melee builds. The old 1wiz/1fighter/10ek/xAA/xwiz still comes out to be probably the most versatile and powerful character you can play in most situations. A wizard might argue that point, but then he'd take an anti magic shell to the knee.

It's pretty much between those two, and each only does their specialty (melee for magus and archery for the EK) well.

Sacred Geomancy feat is pure idiocy. Only two things will come of it:

1) A phone app that does the math for you
2) A player who says "WAIT HOLD ON" for ten minutes trying to come up with something.

This feat is fifty shades of terrible.

Do it ALL barbarian. The damage gains of dice never really keep up with the damage you gain as a barbarian.

Combat Reflexes, Vicious Stomp and Come and Get Me combine to make a very threatening combination. Trip an opponent with your attack, which triggers an AOO (because you're not wasting INT and feats on improved trip), which triggers Come and Get Me. You're guaranteed to crank out all your attacks this way.

Internal Fortitude for Rage Cycling, and Strength Surge mean you can get trips off when needed.

It's probably best you take Urban Barbarian, since you can scale your Dex/Str bonuses as you see fit to generate additional AOOs.

Sorry, I was talking about weapon bond. It costs you a standard action to get those bonuses, and often times the bonuses do not pay off relative to the full attack action you missed. This is more specifically a problem with archer paladins, since they always full attack.

I'm not OP, but I can answer most of this:

BretI wrote:
It would be nice if you gave a few more details on the Azata version of the Aasimir since that information isn't in the Advanced Race Guide. Allow someone to know what they gain if they pick up Blood of Angels.

It's well known that this exists. Because PF is open source it's perfectly legal to just go read that stuff. Maybe a link would be nice, but it's hardly worth mentioning when anyone can just look it up themselves.

BretI wrote:
You may want to point out that you can bond to a bow and that there is nothing preventing you from smiting with a bow. You only can do this a limited number of times, but since smite against evil bypasses all DR it is worth going into the details on that.

Just remember it costs you an action to do this, so unless you get the drop on an an encounter and can prebuff, it is usually not worth giving up a full attack action.

BretI wrote:
Some words about melee would be appropriate. You aren't always going to be able to just shoot everything.

When does this happen? Aside from the fact you can 5'step out of most AOO situations, I'd take the AOO for shooting in melee before I tossed my bow and picked up a melee weapon. You literally have no room for melee feats anyway, it would be a tremendous amount of lost damage to swap into melee for a paladin archer, especially considering you can just swift heal yourself every round for any damage you take.

If you limit magic items, casters reign as supreme because of the 5 minute adventuring day. It encourages players to go into the dungeon, do three encounters blowing all castable resources to stay alive, then to go rest.

It's absolutely ridiculous to punish the 100HP barbarian with 2-3 days resting to just get healed up because the party cleric can't load enough healing to recover all of that. It also forces every party to have a cleric no matter what, and everyone hated playing the healbot in the first place.

I'd personally rather play no pathfinder at all than play like this. Far better to have four players playing what they like then four players gaming their characters to survive overly strict magic item rules.

Your comment about a wand of fireballs seemed out of place. I've never seen an offensive wand user succeed. Fireball on a wand is 5d6 save for half at a terrible reflex roll. This means you're likely seeing 75%+ of the monsters save, and the cost is 225 (!!!) gp per cast averaging only 21 damage (based on 75% save rate) some of which might have hit your melee which will cost you healing.

That's completely ludicrous. Any player in their right mind would just sell the wand, stock up on alchemists fire and spend the profit on items that will actually have some return value.

The road you're headed down is one I've played through before. I'd never willingly opt to return there.

Manyshot should be blue, it allows you to further maximize your smite (which is the only thing setting you apart from any other full BAB archer).

Clustered shot is not blue, it's green at best. Smite already bypasses DR, which is a lot to begin with. Secondly, archers are the best damage in the game for bypassing DR since you can carry whatever arrows you like.

Between those two things I can't really think of a reason to take clustered shots before many shot, or even take it at all since you have so many mandatory archery feats already filled in. Remember that PBS, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim, Manyshot and Improved Precise Shot completely fill any non human paladin through level 11. Human Paladins only have one feat to play with until 13th level. That's not including the Divine Hunter option, which IMO gives up too much for too little return.

I think the Samurai makes for a great survivor type, but as far as focusing on the deathless line or negative hitpoint play I don't think it's productive. The Samurai has his resolve to play with and when that runs low he just needs to play less aggressively. I've seen it in play, however, and it was pretty good.

One bonus for the Samurai is that he can use his resolve right away for more than just damage, he also mitigates missed saves which is an option these guys don't get (without feat investments which are hard to justify).

I would say the barbarian build will destroy the samurai in late levels for going and standing in the worst possible place taking massive damage. The Samurai will be better than all builds in the first 5 levels and shouldn't need to invest feats in survivability, relying on his resolve to keep him around.

the trick for a deathless barbarian is to look at what feats you really need. Only Deathless Initiate is worth taking in the deathless line. While the fighter is focusing on having a huge negative health pool to play in, the barbarian has a somewhat more narrow pool mitigated by massive DR, and then that massive DR again x2 via guarded life for every single hit. I can't understand your fighter at 16 having a roughly -60hp health pool when your barbarian can have -30ish at level 16 but also 17 points of DR.

The first 17 HP of any melee hit are gone via DR17/-, if the attack brings your health total under 0 (and any negative number is below 0, so it applies on all hits under 0) then you convert 34 of the damage after DR to non lethal, and because you have 17DR that applies *2 vs non lethal you just made it so a hit would have to do more than 51 damage (for melee/physical) or 34 damage (non physical) just to make you look at using something like ferocious tenacity. The math also lines up so you never actually get any non lethal damage like this.

Now remember that next 34 damage from guarded life will apply to anything, even stuff DR wouldnt normally cover, that's worth as much on every single attack under 0 as the whole additional fighter health pool.

In the event of a damage overload, the barbarian can resort to Ferocious Tenacity to knock off damage and continue this style of play well past anything the fighter could manage.

Your fighter is focused on staying alive under 0, and he can't even outperform the barbarian for one hit in this mechanic.

He made sub optimal choices, it doesnt mean he needs to change.

there is a rogue talent (deadly range) that moves it out another 10'

our dwarf shield ranger in our party is off to a good start, the problem is at low level you can two hand a shield to better effect because of the issues with hitting at low level. You might keep that in mind.

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Guns n' Roses released a two part guide in the 90's on how to use your illusion, by the way.

corrosive is a waste of money seeing as the deliquescent gloves give it to you at a reduced cost after a certain point. Seeking is largely marginalized, but I'd keep a spare bow with that on it.

Ghost salted arrows are far cheaper than the enchant in any event, I'd use those instead of ghost touch.

Holy is excellent for most campaigns, I'd recommend this.

Buying your weapon is more about how little you can get away with spending than how much. Greater magic weapon is fine, I'd probably buy several pearls of power for my wizard and ask for Heroism/Greater Magic Weapon/Flame Arrow/Abundant Ammunition/Named Bullet on demand. This ends up being FAR more cost efficient.

If you take clustered shots and ghost salt your arrows you effectively remove the need for some expensive enchantments. There is SO MUCH more expensive equipment you can use outside of your weapon. Getting dependable see invisibility, stat items, defensive stuff, greater hat of disguise for stats/darkvision and pheromone arrow synergy, about 5 great ioun stones, luckstone, wayfinder cheese and bracers of falcons aim.

The bottom line is that you can do it, but it's just not as good as a bow. It's like showing up to a gun fight but you brought a gun that jams. You'll be able to participate, but you'll always wonder if the extra shots you were missing out on (via manyshot) could have saved your life.

I think the inquisitor is fine, you'll be able to participate more fully in the campaign that way (because skill points make characters more fun IMO). You will be working for the feats for a very long time.

JoCa wrote:
However, flavorwise, a archery focused monk who is also a crow just appeals to me in ways I can't explain.

I think the idea of a tengu drawing his bow and hitting his own beak with the bow string is entertaining. Then he has to decide if he is going to turn his head to the right and side-eye his aim, or if he is going to look down the side of this bow unable to get his eye lined up for the shot, and the whole thing looks super awkward. Once he has the funds raised he immediately gets a nose job with his local transmuter and a polymorph.

Man, I could lose whole rounds of combat just describing to the party how he's trying to get his stuff together and shoot but he can't aim. This actually seems like a rather hilarious character.

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