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520 posts. Alias of Hatch240.


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You're not looking hard enough, the FAQs for relevant abilities are often cited at d20pfsrd. They need to remove proprietary names for things on that site for legal reasons, and wayang is apparently owned by paizo.

It specifically states you never lower a spell level, no matter what.

I abuse this enchant rather frequently by getting a courageous AOMF (which is dirt cheap with no enhancement bonus) and a flawed Pale Green Prism ioun stone for all day heroism. In late levels you can have the party buffer drop a 16th level greater magic weapon on your amulet each day to get a +3 bonus.

No, read the trait description, it specifically excludes that possibility.

Elemental spell and intensify are more than enough for the bulk of your progression. Maximize and quicken should be added later on to pair with spell perfection. Don't plan on exceeding a first level spot for your main spell in my opinion, because you can load up on pearls of power (1st level) and just keep yourself pumping out damage all day like that. At level 11 I have 15 pearls of power (1st) and I can sustain spell combat every round for extended periods. Make sure you get both spell penetration feats.

A ring of Wizardry (1) isn't out of the question late game.

The thread is getting hijacked, the status of the divine spells in the group aren't really relevant. Appreciate the input but it's not the thread for it.

Tin & Thac, thank you. I tinkered with some stuff today and found that at the end of the campaign as an evoker I'd be running such massive bonuses to firesnake that I wouldnt need as much spell pen (but I took it anyway). Espcially considering an evokers second roll vs spell penetration it seems overkill (though I trust it will not actually be overkill).

I've toyed with the straight mage to make him Void specialized so he is more focused on SOS since he gets that awesome save debuff ability. Not sure what school he will focus on, but more than likely necromancy or transmutation for the SOS abilities. Even bigger questions about what spell to specialize/perfect. I have thoughts of one of the dispel magics, just to set myself up as a caster killer.

DrDeth wrote:
Ah, so you play Rocket tag. In most games, where encounters last 6+ rounds, like the way the devs play and my groups play, in combat healing is a Must. Nevermind.

We frequently reach the end of our haste spells in our current healerless campaigns without deaths (both at level 11 now). Rocket tag requires some squishy players. We usually get by with front liners who can mitigate a pounding. Also the notion that in combat healing is a must is purely conjecture. At no point is casting a healing spell more valuable than stopping one or several monsters from attacking. At no point is any heal spell going to make up for the melee damage a mirror image will prevent. If you haven't tried it, don't knock it. At first I felt odd about going healerless, but it caused me to examine what I was playing and prioritize some defensive thinking in early rounds to get out in front of damage before it happens.

In fact, that's why I'm up on these mage builds right now, because I see the value of a high initiative dazing spell and how much damage it can shut down. Action locking opponents via dazing spell, slow, obsidian flow and other harrying spells each prevent more damage than any other spell can. Even if I take the CB sorc dip to make my DPR numbers less bad, it's not going to invalidate all the control and preemptive healing I'm able to provide via halting incoming damage.

No, I will not focus on anything but int and dex, charisma isn't used on a paladin only taking one level. I didn't need it for smite, I needed it to get precise shot without point blank shot early on. The only function of the first level is to obtain all martial weapons for the EK requirement. Getting precise shot free saves me another feat (by either skipping or delaying PBS).

Shifting to the CB dipped wizard: The more I dig around the more it seems that dazing spell is the best CC in the game, and you need a damaging spell to apply it to. This means I'd be blasting one way or another with it, so one level of cross blooded gives me a LOT of power, making blasts completely legitimate.

The first level of CB sorcerer looks like this: We get a bonus feat at first level, I'm thinking of taking

Spell Focus (Evocation) (+1DC to evocations)
Mages Tattoo (Evocation) (+1CL to evocations)
Spell Specialization (Burning Hands) (+2CL to Burning Hands, swapped to fireball at 6th)

Also the trait Lore Seeker, which gives 3 spells +1 CL and +1DC, which I would apply one of to burning hands (the other to fireball, not sure what on the final one.)

This means at first level my burning hands does 5d4+10 damage... at first level... It's pretty substaintial DPR for a caster right off (even though my focus will really be CC).

I know I could go straight wizard for slightly better optimization of utility and control, but that one level sorcerer dip makes every fireball over 50% better. It's a lot to miss out on.

DrDeth wrote:
Yes, he can know them. But will he? The advantage of a Cleric is that tomorrow he can cure Blindness, etc. Lesser Restoration is a must do, but the others? And if he's stuck in melee how does he heal others unless he has Channel?

He wouldn't, healing in combat is terrible at every level for clerics. We've moved away from it because almost anything is better than wasting action economy on those spells. We've had numerous campaigns that have been a lot better since moving out of the "this guy is our healer" mentality.

Keep in mind his combination of shield other (to share damage with them) and his swift self healing *IS* good action economy, and far more healing than we usually get, so he's a big bonus.

I'm not aware of which spells oracles lack. I looked for the major ones (remove curse/disease and restoration) and found them all to be present. I felt the oracle would be exceptional in that role since he's not blowing his spells on control/healing being melee focused.

Certainly a paladin will be strongly encouraged, but if I'm going to run a pure wizard the paladin might be better off as a ranged oath of vengeance paladin, and the bard could also focus on archery for a better balance.

Yes, I'm aware of the traits. It's still a toss up if wayang spell hunter and magical lineage stack. A free daze on every slow spell is pretty amazing for both the EK and the straight mage build. The bonus to caster level becomes less appealing as time goes on but manipulating the level of the spell after metamagic is enticing right up through level 17.

I think, in the cases of the EK or pure wizard build, I'd like to focus on SOS spells like slow. With wayang spellhunter and/or magical lineage on slow I can be throwing out dazing/persistant slows pretty early.

The EK in particular is interesting because with a relatively high chance of critting he's going to eventually be simply including his slow spell whenever he crits and selecting his crit target at one of the recipients. I can imagine the first couple rounds are spent setting up a lockdown situation, but later rounds he can join in the range DPS fun and add more control as needed.

I kind of worry about being a full spell level behind with the EK but when your main spell comes online at third and you only need a few levels on it for your main metamagics you're doing okay. Also the prospect of things are are simply immune to magic is always out there so the archery would really help.

Dave Justus wrote:

Nothing wrong with any of those builds, although I think the archer paladin ek would be the worst choice in a party that already looks like it will be pretty martial heavy (presuming your newer players go martial.)

Another option though might be a witch instead of a wizard. This might be especially good if you really want to play an archer for one of your new players. Witch isn't any simpler than wizard as far as spells go, but it does have the nice fallback of slumber or evil eye if the player doesn't know what else do to. I think that makes it a very good class to learn to play full casters. You have all the options, but you also have a simple and effective 'default' action if you don't know what to do.

The EK build is an archer, shouldn't conflict with melee.

Edit: It's actually a mobile fighter and an oracle of battle, so melee is covered for the most part

Cross posted from ROTRL forums for maximum solicitation.

So our ROTRL group will be starting in the near future, and so far it seems we have a mobile fighter, an oracle (of battle), two newer and undecided players and then myself. I was originally looking to play an archer, but the party could use some arcane casting and I'd rather not shove a "You should try a wizard" statement on a new player. I'm pretty sure the AP runs to 17, so that's what I've been looking at.

I've played wizards before in previous editions. I'm pretty well researched, so I have it down to three choices:

1) A Paladin1/Wizard1/EK10/Wizard6 archer/mage. This brings lots of versatile ways to do damage and bring utility/control but the drawback is the -2CL from the paladin and EK levels.

2) cross blooded draconic/orc Sorcer 1/ Admixture Wizard 16. This thing brings a lot of daze based AOE damage for wide area control and mook cleanup allowing the party to focus on the BBEG. A slightly less noticeable -1CL is the drawback here.

3) Wizard 17. Just straight wizard with a lot of single and wide area control stuff.

I know a wizard is well regarded for any party in this AP. Will 1 and/or 2 be noticeably "behind" what the AP demands for spellcasting? What do you recommend here?

So our ROTRL group will be starting in the near future, and so far it seems we have a swashbuckler, an oracle, two newer and undecided players and then myself. I was originally looking to play an archer, but the party could use some arcane casting and I'd rather not shove a "You should try a wizard" statement on a new player. I'm pretty sure the AP runs to 17, so that's what I've been looking at.

I've played wizards before in previous editions. I'm pretty well researched, so I have it down to three choices:

1) A Paladin1/Wizard1/EK10/Wizard6 archer/mage. This brings lots of versatile ways to do damage and bring utility/control but the drawback is the -2CL from the paladin and EK levels.

2) cross blooded draconic/orc Sorcer 1/ Admixture Wizard 16. This thing brings a lot of daze based AOE damage for wide area control and mook cleanup allowing the party to focus on the BBEG. A slightly less noticeable -1CL is the drawback here.

3) Wizard 17. Just straight wizard with a lot of single and wide area control stuff.

I know a wizard is well regarded for any party in this AP. Will 1 and/or 2 be noticeably "behind" what the AP demands for spellcasting? What do you recommend here?

I've seen very little mention of the possibility of using a crossbow with the crossbow master feat on an Eldritch Knight to trigger swift action spells from range. I'm wondering if anyone has any builds they could point me to for this purpose, and how they might have performed. Obviously the niche here is to eventually have a high threat ranged weapon with which to trigger spell critical, so you can pump out some damage. My thought is to use snowball intensified with magical lineage for some damage assistance with heft to it.

Anyone have any advice on this? I'll be using something along the lines of divine hunter1/Wizard (scryer)1/EK10/wizard to finish.

Imbicatus wrote:
Urban ranger works very well, but I thought I'd just throw out one more option: Have you considered the Zen Archer monk? They are great Switch Hitters in that they can unarmed strike at low levels if people get close, and shoot them in melee after 3rd level. Dwarves make fantastic Zen Archers and ZA keep fast movement to overcome the 20' move speed. Just a thought.

Actually, any archer who can get Point Blank Master is way better than a switch hitter IMO. You don't need to split your focus on two things and can specialize on the vastly superior archery the game offers. Switch hitting is what people want to do when they're thinking of a cool character. Straight archery is what people do when they see how much better archery is than melee in pretty much every way.

On the other side of that coin, all you really need to be effective in melee is power attack, so if it's not too much out of an archery build you can take it, but the archery feats are almost always far better than getting power attack due to how little you melee as time goes on with a ZAM/ranger or any class that picks up PBM early.

Jaime Sommers wrote:

What if I don't have access to instant enemy (such as from playing in a Core Rulebook only campaign)? How would you advance your FE options?

(Rise and shine, sleepy thread!)

Speak with the GM, read the players guide to the AP. If you're running homebrew he should provide what would be good FEs. If you're running an AP just read the guide carefully and it will tell you what would be good.

Chris Kenney wrote:

Magi only really function well as pure melee blasters. You are just too dependent on the blast spells for your damage to waste much of your store with buffing.

I can only tell you my experience, but I have (at 10th level) 7 first level spells and 12 pearls of power (1st) in addition to 9 arcane pool... I can blast all day with that many spells, I use spells of level 2+ as defensive and "additional" blasting capacity, but realistically I dont blast much from those. It's all about ultility and defense up there with a scorching ray and intensified burning hands and acidic shocking grasp for some help. If I need any of those a second or third time, that's what recall is for.

In any event, I buff every single fight on my magus. Usually you need to move to get up there anyway, may as well mirror image + move. With Dervish Dance a full attack looks pretty good even without a shocking grasp.

So you're looking for a way to perform a dirty trick, but quickly? Let me google that for you...

not that you can afford the feat tax, but vicious display in combination with shatter defenses can keep your sneak attack rolling for any ranged rogue.

I've found the necromancer games forums are the only place that has information on this, since it's a third party product. You'll find more there.

announce it to the whole group and let the whole group decide in private.

Looks to me like the party could use an arcane caster, but that won't do the damage you're looking for. A magus will fill a party need and do good melee damage but might lack early on skills.

Also if all those other guys are melee oriented you will have trouble getting into melee range, you might want to go with an archer. An eldritch knight Ranger (trapper)1/Wizard/EK build will get a lot of skill proficiencies via the ranger, a lot of skills via Int, give the party all the arcane spells they need and also fill the damage role nicely with a bow. You could go diviner (scryer) to get the early entry into eldritch knight if you want to keep your BAB from dipping too low early. You'd go Ranger1(trapper)/Wiz1(scryer)/EK10 with this build AND give disable device/trapfinding to the group.

Scavion wrote:

Why not just do the Intimidating yourself? Seems more reliable.

Point Blank Master solves your problem at level 14 which is beyond the play of most folks.

DR is super important. You can fight a Succubus as early as level 6 after all. At that part you're dealing approximately 1d8+9 on each attack. DR10 hoses you completely. Instead of dealing 35ish damage, you deal 5.

A Barbarian is dealing approximately 24ish damage a hit by comparison with better chances of hitting.

Action economy. A melee guy will get it as a swift action or even for free, as a slayer you need your swift to change your favored target, which you're doing a LOT if you're getting SA on all your arrows. Sneak attack and PF in general are far more reliant on team play than anyone mentions on the forums.

I stated in the post that shatter defenses becomes the priority in a party with an intimidator. Point blank master eventually solves the issue of shooting while in melee. From my experience, damage reduction doesn't hurt an archer that much, since he's still getting 1-3 extra attacks over melee anyway. Sure it costs you damage, but you already started out extremely high on DPR and DR brings you from a rediculous #1 DPR in a party down to a merely less damaging #1 DPR in the party (since they have to deal with it too).

Also Improved Snapshot functions at 15', not just 10'. You have d10 hitpoints and improved precise shot, get up there and shoot in/around melee. If you take an AOO for it so what.

The best I've come up with is this. Obviously if you have intimidation specialists in your party go ahead and shuffle shatter defenses earlier and delay snapshot line.

Slayer1 PBS Precise
Slayer2 Ranger Style: Rapid Shot
Slayer3 Deadly Aim
Slayer4 Weapon Focus: Bow
Slayer5 Combat Reflexes
Slayer6 Ranger Style: Improved Precise Shot
Slayer7 Snap Shot
Slayer8 Combat Trick: Manyshot
Slayer9 Improved Snapshot
Slayer10 Opportunist
Slayer11 dazzling display
Slayer12 Feat: shatter defenses
Slayer13 Clustered Shot
Slayer14 Point Blank Master (Longbow)

Opportunist and improved snapshot make for good bedfellows. People who hate on rogues and don't understand how to use sneak attack properly will probably say it's not possible to use your SA with a bow, but a full BAB character is in a unique position to take shatter defenses way earlier than a rogue and begin plunking away at shaken targets. Sneak attack always requires teamwork to use properly, this guy is best used in a party with 1-2 melee who have free/swift intimidate mechanics.

Also, you need a 14 strength. Hitting wont be an issue after 6th when you get improved precise shot.

In E8 Archery is the hands down most powerful character, especially rangers and Zen Archer monks who snag improved precise shot. The rangers mount and constant ability to full attack and extend the fight means his action economy is the peak of any character in any group short of another human ranger with leadership maybe?

When you play E8, you essentially say "I'm replacing the caster problem with an archer problem". Higher level play balances this out because people actually die, and begin devoting feats to things like iron will and other defenses.

I've never understood the DR argument. If you have a good strength (14+) deadly aim puts you well above most melee in terms of damage. I've never really seen a good archer of any class hampered by DR more than anyone else in the party. They might be losing a little more of their damage on each hit percentage-wise but they're still getting 1-3 more attacks typically

the seeker would wreck things for a number of reasons, he'd need to be an aasimar to get a third level racial to qualify for EK early which in turn would rob you of a feat which you desperately need. Otherwise you're stuck playing a fighter1/seeker6 before you qualify and 8th level to take EK, and that would be a long and underpowered road.

In either event, you're rocking two skill points a level during your EK time because you've got a 10 int, so you can have perception and disable device capped out and that's all.

So the thread actually got me reconsidering the trapper ranger as the one level dip to help qualify for eldritch knight, and it would give the group a trap finder plus backup on knowledge checks as well as a ton of additional magic. It pretty much should check all the boxes and would get improved snapshot by level 11 instead of 9 due to the loss of a BAB point. Perception will suffer for lack of wisdom (and no feats to focus in it) but all in all it's not terrible.

The only drawback to this is being a diviner and having to find divination spells worth taking at each level every day.

DrDeth wrote:
There’s another issue here in that a Archer usually brings nothing but DPR to the team. A Tank blocks and does damage, a arcane caster does battlefield control, area effects, buffing & utility spells, etc.

I've seen you mention this in a couple of older threads and I never wanted to necro those to respond, so I'm glad you came here. Firstly, the only archers not lending to the party utility are fighters. Every other class that can use a bow can bring something, even the 8 int paladin is going to bring some diplomacy to the table (which is probably one of the top three skills) and that's on top of shield other + lay on hands cheese. The Zen Archer Monk can bring stealth and take Wisdom of the Flesh (Disable Device) to round out this party a bit with at least some trap handling ability.

The ranger brings a ton of useful things with his spells and skills, but I think you recognized that yourself.

Saying Archers "usually bring nothing but DPR" is only true if your archers are usually fighters.

Secondly, let's not downplay the utility of damage. Ending a combat two rounds early because of the face melting damage your archer cranked out saves a lot of resources.

I'm assuming the knowledge skills can be handled by the thuerge, which begs the question of if the party needs a second knowledge role worse than it needs what a ranger (or another class) brings.

rorek55 wrote:
As far as pure damage? Paladin archer will do well. Really though this comes down to taste. Personally I would recommend a samurai MOUNTESD Archer. At level 5 you can reduce your ride archery penatlies to -1/-2. Other than that its up to you. I would go switch hitter ranger.

Actually the ranger would be of the sable company marine archetype (hippogriff rider), and also you incur NO penalty for firing a bow while mounted as long as you use only a single move (hippogriff moves at 100' at 4th level). It's certainly under consideration, but riding the hippogriff would take away from the snapshot line since you're well out of the 15' threat radius you've been granted.

Edit: Also, I'm not really worried as much about DPR. All archers are at the top of the charts in that regard, I guess I'm looking for which character is going to be the most useful to this group in this AP, and I do enjoy being involved in all aspects of the AP (not just combat).


This will be for an upcoming rise of the runelords (anniversary edition). So far our party seems to be shaping up as follows

Melee Oracle
Swashbuckler (from advanced class guide, which will be published by start time)
wizard/cleric Mystic Theurge (with early entry at 3rd, progressing wizard after MT10)

I'm looking to fill the role of ranged damage and possibly other utility as needed, except trapfinding because every option that gives you trapfinding is (IMO) a terrible option for an archer.

I'm really considering most everything at this point. Zen Archer Monk, early entry Eldritch Knight, Gunslinger, Ranger and Oath of Vengeance Paladin. I really like the snapshot line and I seem to be able to get those feats in place by level 9 with the ranger, paladin (with one level fighter dip) and the gunslinger.

Any recommendations?

You need weapon finesse ASAP typically if you're playing a dex build (often the case for elves) and dervish dance is insanely good, so you'd be getting combat casting at 5th, which is almost when its usefulness dies off. I think you're jumping on a justified use of "feat starved" in this instance. It's not that the Magus is feat starved the whole way through, but certainly the first four levels anyway.

These are the calculations I made for an elf Magus with the +2 racial concentration bonus and no feat taken. If the number is negative, that's how much you're short of not needing to roll, positive numbers are how much you're over. The yellow highlights are to show which points would have a 100% success rate if you had combat casting. You can see that you never really get over your need for some concentration help unless you take more measures on your own via int pumping, elf racials or the combat casting feat. Also remember that losing a first level spell at first level and losing a fifth level spell at level fourteen are (by my calculations) equally infuriating.

It's a 20% increased chance to not lose your spells. You won't get over the need for it until at least level 8ish. Its importance is compounded by the fact that at low levels you have fewer resources and losing one spell represents a much bigger portion of your assets. Additionally, it will continue to be useful in casting your highest level spells all the way through your characters life cycle (even if you wont need the whole bonus, you will typically need 1-3 points of it).

It's very much a depreciating asset, but its initial value is ungodly high.

Thalin wrote:
I generally prefer rangers; Zen archers really only get will save; and that doesn't compare at high levels to Instant Enemy and the raw damage it outputs (and your enemies should be Human/Undead/Evil Outsider to keep the number of castings of this to a minimum).

Disagree, the damage loss from monk isn't enough to warrant a preference from one class to the next. They all do great damage.

Thalin wrote:
Early entry to cluster shot and improved precise really make the differnece; improved precise is +4 to hit in many, many, many situations.

Agreed! Since the monk and ranger have improved precise shot at level 6 and clustered shot as early as BAB allows (level 6 in both cases due to BAB increases during flurry for monk) then they're on equal footing.

Thalin wrote:
And the free animal companion to "go melee" is no slouch either (once you take a feat for boon companion).

Yes, I kind of wrote the guide on that. I assure you the Zen archer is every bit on the level of the ranger, it's a perfectly excellent class. When it comes to survivability it's hands down better though due to having a few spare feats to devote to the issue and because of monk saves and high wisdom.

Also your ZAM should probably go dwarf and has the feat/trait available to stack the dwarf racial saves vs spells and SLAs to +5. It's incredibly good. The ranger is stuck with poor will and can't afford to go dwarf because he needs feats badly, and even if he could go dwarf he couldn't lose another feat bumping the racial saves.

I don't think anyone will argue the fact that all the archers are going to do EXCELLENT damage. Due to the amount of damage archers bring, you need to not think about damage on this question and look at everything else the class brings.

If you're playing Paizo APs you're looking to finish up between levels 13 and 17. All those APs share some pretty lethal save or die mechanics, they're not cake-walks. Paladin and Zen archer probably come out as the most survivable archers, followed closely by the barbarian (with superstition) and to a lesser extent the inquisitor (high will save + wisdom as a needed stat + stalwart).

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Lamontius wrote:

Rynjin, why did barbarian not make your list as an archer?

I love the one I play in pfs, urban barbarian/invulnerable rager

Urban Barbarian is possibly the highest damage archer due to a few reasons

rage + a furious/courageous +2 spiked gauntlet or bow

reckless abandon working with ranged attacks

Come and get me synergizing with improved snapshot and your very high (raged up) dex.

You end up with improved snapshot 2 levels later due to feat starvation (Unless you dip fighter), but it just doesn't matter. Barbarians do archery well.

I just dont understand the rogue hate, have you tried a gang-up scout/thug rogue with a reach weapon (or DW) in a party with players playing as a team? God help them if you have a summoner or a reach weapon user. It's pretty ridiculous damage.

bump. any help?

OK, so I've read about a few rule changes that help my AT. One of them is racial SLAs counting for some class prequisites. Essentially I'm going to be a tiefling using darkness as the qualifier for the 2nd level spell. This will allow me to go rogue3/wiz1 and then the rest into AT

On to my real questions:

1) Scorching ray (and other multi touch attacks) now allowing sneak attack on all its rays, is this the case? Where can I see this?

2) Stealth and ranged sneak attacks. Could I use my move action to hide (assuming I had some concealment from either natural effects or Blur) and my standard to cast spells from stealth? If so, would all my attacks (assuming multiple ones from scorching ray) land with sneak, or only the first?

3) AT "Surprise Spell" capstone actually requires everyone to be flat footed, is this only realistically achievable in a surprise round? If not how can I build to capitalize?

Which feats would you work to try to maximize ranged touch attack sneaks?

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Running this build (again) for a new campaign this winter. I'll be going sable company marine and I'll update the animal companion section with my findings. Any thoughts on feats for optimizing the griffon?

Running an invulnerable rager barbarian right now who took skill focus in profession:sailor and went with a normal build aside from grabbing improved unarmed strike and dragon style. It's ungodly hilarious to escalate a simple fistfight into a raging two handed unarmed attack that one shots someone.

soupturtle wrote:

I'd rather play a Zen Archer, Ranger, Eldritch Knight, Cleric, Paladin or Inquisitor archer than a fighter archer.

However, the only one of those that can equal the Fighter archer in terms of damage is probably the Zen Archer. So it's not that fighters aren't good as archers, it's just that I personally prefer a character with more options.

edit: I forgot the synthesist summoner archer. I'd play that before a fighter as well.

Actually, in terms of straight up damage the Zen archer falls behind the fighter after level 8, and further behind at 11 when the fighter picks up his improved precise shot. Lack of ability to generate the big bonuses to hit and damage that smite/instant enemy/bane and weapon training can provide pushed the zen archer below the other classes late in the game as well according to the DPR math I came up with.

I will say the zen archer is insanely well rounded and fun, it's possibly the most well rounded non caster.

I'm running an elf magus right now with shocking grasp/elemental spell. It's outrageously good. His skill selection (thanks to extra traits) is awesome, he is great in all phases of the campaign. Saying a magus with shocking grasp focus is a one trick pony is like watching a pony perform one trick and then slamming your eyes shut and declaring yourself right before you can see the second trick.

Any caster has multiple spells, so there are a lot of tricks in that ponys stable. One thing I like about the elf is delaying the elf level ability by 1 to pick up spells like heroism at the earliest possible level (7th) via spellblending.

Craft Wonderous items is practically required. A magus with a bane baldric and a string of pearls of power (1st) the length of his arm is going to wreck encounters, multiple times a day.

MrSin wrote:

Erm... A pounce makes a full attack almost always possible. Except difficult terrain, but by lvl 10 you probably a a few ways around that.

I'll trust you about overrun. I rarely see it used, so I probably don't know its merits.

IMO a pounce barbarian without dragon style (which resolves the difficult terrain) is kind of wasted. There's ALWAYS a guy in the party with a huge initiative getting in your way, dragon style resolves that too. Finally, a good barbarian is a reach barbarian, but sometimes guys get inside your reach, and you need to teach them that a 1d3+15 attack exists.

Matt2VK wrote:

The reason I dont want Superstitous or Pounce was becouse I wanted something a bit different then all the Barbarians you see in PFS.

I just want to play something different that's still worthwhile.

It's a bit like posting on a supercar forum asking how to get a supercar without an engine that's still competitive with the others supercars. You're asking folks to remove the most numerically advantageous powers from play and still build a good barbarian. I totally respect your desire to play something fun that fits a concept, but just go pick the powers that seem the most fun.

Piccolo wrote:
point out that if they blow feats on upping their poor saves, they won't have problems like this.

This isn't even close to true. Most of the time I'm missing saves it's by a lot more than the two points a feat would have added. Having the feat means almost nothing, yet you've phrased it as a certainty for success here.

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