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764 posts. Alias of Hatch240.


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MeanMutton wrote:
Okay, here's a different, radical idea: Don't sweat it. Let them have fun and play the game. If characters they're bringing in are too optimized, feel free to have a chat with them when they're creating them and point out that they're being a bit meta-game and ask them not to.

It's a good answer, but I hate the answer at the same time. "too optimized" is a real stab in the heart to people who love game mechanics, and certain things which might be cool in concept are really frustrating to play mechanically. You run into that once and you decide not to waste your time anymore, you look up mechanically excellent builds and select the one you like the best and now you're a power gamer when in reality you just didn't want to fall into the trap of playing an unsupported build.

Also, if you play certain classes you end up too optimized from the start (wizard) which really invalidates any argument against a supremely optimized fighter or rogue in my mind.

If the party comp supports it (two melee bros), a whip rogue with Gang Up is ungodly good, and at that point Rake is better (IMO) because you're going to be sneak attacking a lot.

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I've been building a wizard for Way of the Wicked and I'm strongly considering the human feat chain for Defiant Luck to start things off. Of all the classes I think the wizard is least likely to screw something up by taking the wrong feats, so can you recommend some fun feats (or even whole builds) to take which are outside the box for a wizard? I really don't want to fill my first 10 levels with variations of spell focus and spell penetration.

Renegadeshepherd wrote:
EK is crap to all but wizard these days. All the other arcane classes have level scaling abilities that they lose to take EK.

EK is also crap for anything but the archery build now that we have so many options for melee styles casters. On the other hand, that EK/wiz archer is supremely fun to play.

Neat, what's the benefit of doing it all one handed? A shield?

Don't you mean Ammo Drop for the feat that lets you load as a swift? Also won't he need Juggle Load, the follow on feat that changes loading to a free action?

We decided to run Way of the Wicked instead of waiting for the new AP to come out. I decided on a wizard, and I was going to go Diabolist, I just couldn't figure how it would be better than a straight wizard. In fact, the wizard ends up being just as good or better with some additional effort. Still, the charisma bonus probably does save you from needing to debuff your target devil a few times, so there is a small advantage.

I really can't see what the damnation feats do though, there is such a limited list of spells with the evil descriptor for which it would help.

JamesTheDonkey wrote:

So I just ran through the Barbarian Archetypes. If you choose to be an urban barbarian, you give up fast movement and medium armor, but you can apply your rage to Dex and don't take an AC penalty while raging. Other than that, not really. There is one with firearms that has a similar effect, Savage Technologist.

You can also Urban Bloodrager for a similar effect and ease of use of lots of wands.

Bloodrager would give him the opportunity to have a familiar (Boo!) and take Escape Route, and completely avoid the entire problem of threatening areas for opponents.

mamutito wrote:
Hey my friends, gonna start this AP, in party we are 1wizard, 1cleric and 1fighter pretty standard ^^, i dont think be rogue is good idea, his saves sucks, and this campaings have lot of magic ^_^, sooo ideas :3 builds or whatever. Bye and sry for my bad english :P

Well I wouldn't say the rogue is

mamutito wrote:

hrmm... well I still think the unchained rogue is...

mamutito wrote:
mamutito wrote:

Yeah you're gonna need a slayer.

The EK will make the Skald worse, Skald is a very strong option.

I was considering the same issue for my diabolist in an upcoming campaign. I decided this is the appropriate time to just go ahead and use simulacrum to make a succubus, because they really can't be trusted unless you weird science one yourself.

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You're gonna need to remove the Oracle. Just have your PC stand up and say he doesn't feel the oracle is pulling his weight, that it's threatening the lives of you and your fellow party members, and that until the oracle gives up his vow of combat celibacy you're not heading back to the dungeon. You're an adventuring party, it's like a business. Get a majority vote and fire him.

Just insist your character feels the Oracle is the biggest threat to the lives of the party members.

Optionally, just say that you've been inspired by the Oracle and you too will be joining him in his "do no harm" vow and ask the others to join you in it.

If the DM won't work with the Oracles desire to weaken the party, then you shouldn't either.

I guess I should have read the rest of the statement, oh well. Still plenty of ways to get that sneak attack.

Based on the player identifying the Slayer first, I'm going to do my best to uphold the idea and let the player play what initially grabbed his/her attention.

I think it's pretty well know that any archer is going to lay down more damage than almost any other party member, so I don't think you need to plan too meticulously to make sure the newer player has enough oomph.

A slayer archer doesn't need to rely on sneak attack at all, and can pretty much ignore it while still contributing more damage than anyone but some of the barbarian builds (or a few other archers). The Gang Up feat is INCREDIBLY easy to build for, and as long as there are two melee in your party you will see plenty of opportunity to use it

( to see the FAQ where they say it's allowed)

Shatter defenses along with the countless ways to achieve intimidation are another way to get this going, and don't forget about the Goz mask + any sort of fog cloud effect.

I think you can safely run slayer without issue, and frankly archer slayers are awesome without the need of sneak attack. Finally Slayers have the ability to take some of the initiative/surprise rogue talents, which let him land sneak attack openers regardless.

I think the best caster/archer in the game is fighter1/wizard5/EK10. I've played it myself and it's really excellent at all levels relying on how OP archery is for the first few levels and then leaning more into magic to buff up and compensate for missing stuff later. You end up with 9th levels spells. You can even dip 4 of AA at some point so you can drop the anti magic shell cheese on casters.

The trapfinding trait was opened up to the party, the cleric has it. Also the AT doesnt seem to come into his own until later levels. Emeral Spire ends at 13th at most. I'd hate to spend the whole campaign sucking only to just get good enough on the last levels

any link to a good arcane trickster build?

The cleric is a summoner/buffer, we don't force anyone to heal and especially with the witch and cleric summoning there should be plenty of stuff in the way to soak damage. I've been considering some stuff along the lines of a gunslinger or archer, but conjurer wizard is also in the mix.

focusing on enchantment with a witch already in the party?

We have a Witch, an Evangelist Cleric and a Bloodrager. What would you run for the 4th player?

lemeres wrote:
can full attack anything in a 45' wide circle

So you mean 20' reach? Yeah it's not hard. You can build an abberant bloodrager who gains 5' reach at 4th along with access to enlarge person and long arm. At 4th level you can have a 20'reach with just that since they all stack which means a 40' reach with a reach weapon and later a 50' reach with lunge.

Froth Maw wrote:

I've heard people say that rangers are good at TWF, but I've never actually seen one not get destroyed in game. My orc barbarian sponged a whole fights worth of arrows while our party's ranger died from one full attack. The worst archer I've ever seen and the worst scout I've ever seen were also rangers. Ranger is still pretty popular though because everyone wants to be Aragorn.

TWF itself is mechanically deficient due to requiring more resources for an inferior product. I can't build a good playable TWF ranger that I'm happy with, but I can build extremely playable 2h rangers no problem. It really requires looking hard at your ranger style options, I like Gorums best.

Any class built with a pounce mechanic (without giving up too much) plays drastically better than a character without that mechanic. You can build without pounce, but you're doomed to spend half your time without something to do but move.

You can design around it by taking the cleave feats and hurtful, invoking more than one attack after moving via those mechanics. That ends up being just fine. There are just some classes where it's harder to do than others.

Optimizing hurtful really means waiting for cornugan smash at level 6/7 on a full BAB class. Anything sooner and you're blowing more feats for a more questionable applicability (immunity to non lethal). Also, the progression of your intimidate bonus slowly outpaces the target number by .5 per level, so the longer you wait to bring it online the less feats/traits you need to blow pumping intimidate for a certain roll.

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In every AP I've run in as a player the GM applies a minimum of the advanced template to all creatures and buffs up the big guys even more, he then removes loot from the APs to the point where we never make WBL and the adventures still become obscenely easy after a certain point. The system really loses its luster in later levels, but you can stall that breaking point a bit by not having as much loot to buy the OP items as quickly.

London Duke wrote:

I would definately take rogue through 4th level, debilitating injury is crazy strong and makes the rogue one of the best if not the best melee debuffer in the game.

Also be sure to grab Minor Magic (whatever) and Major Magic (Longarm), combined with whirlwind attack, Longarm, Lunge, and a reach weapon you can hit everything in 20ft! Grabbing Arcane Training (Wizard) would let you use a wand of Enlarge person for free expanding that to everything in 25ft. Thats pretty awesome when combined with debilitating injury and riving strike and 25ft on either side is really really alot of space.

It would be very intensive but you could also grab Dazzling Display/Shatter Defenses (or beg a fellow pc to do it) to be able to sneak attack everyone within 25ft with your whirlwind attack.

Actually your natural reach with longarm and lunge is 15', your reach weapon doubles your natural reach, so you can hit 30'. If you enlarge person your natural reach in this setup would go to 20' and reach to 40'.

So I've always assumed these two work together nicely, but now that I read closer it appears that heroic echo only works with spells, SLAs and magic items.

Bardic performance is a supernatural ability. Do those stack? If not does the shared buff ability bypass the requirement? How are people using heroic echo?

I'm trying to figure if it's worth having the eldritch heritage line for this bloodline.

Nothing will beef you up like the reach build suggested above. That and a boarding pike are extremely good for the campaign. Coupled with a source of slipstream (multiple castings stack) you're going to be very impressed.

Agreed, there are so many ways for archers to get into melee without any real drawbacks, and archery is so vastly superior to melee on most classes that I wouldn't let anything stop me from making an archer if that's what I wanted to play.

UnArcaneElection wrote:

Actually, you CAN get close to a full BAB with close to full arcane casting, using the Reach Cleric guide tips and applying them to a build that jumps through some hoops -- search for "Third Character" in the post, because the first part of the post is about other characters. Check out the rest of the thread, too -- for its group-mind play purpose, it could use some more people.

I just looked at that build.

First of all, the familiar still gets all the saves and whatnot, still pretty flatly better than one bonus spell from an item considering what valet familiar and lookout get a diviner, that's not considering the tremendous boon a faerie dragon is if you snag improved familiar later.

I mean, in my opinion, +4 initiative and double craft speed is worth way more than one spell a day.

Secondly, how are you building a melee reach EK without mentioning combat reflexes?

Third, how are you telling him to take arcane archer when you laid out his feats and none of them included any of the three archery feats required to get into the class?

The "third character" build made no sense, took additional traits with other vital feats missing.

Savage Dirty Tricks is a perfectly ideal rage power if you're stacking bull totem on an amplified rage skald. The save is strength based and you get to stagger/daze nauseate someone once a round. This gives you a good amount of control for a melee character. Sadly none of those conditions actually makes the target easier to hit. I know in my build I'm looking at hurtful/cornugan smash though, so the loss of an attack each round isn't quite as bad.

Reckless Rage is (IMO) terrible, you invest a feat that is power attack without the scaling. I'd much rather have Harmonic Spell, lingering performance or invest in a measterpiece.

Paizo FAQ 2015 wrote:

What makes something a fear effect? What about a morale effect?

Fear effects include spells with the fear descriptor, anything explicitly called out as a fear effect, anything that causes the shaken, frightened, or panicked condition, and all uses of the Intimidate skill. Intimidate, in particular, is a mind-affecting fear effect, so fearless and mindless creatures are immune to all uses of Intimidate.

Morale effects, unlike fear effects, so far have not had a descriptor or a call-out. Anything that grants a morale bonus is a morale effect. For example, the rage spell grants a morale bonus, so a creature immune to morale effects would be immune to the entire spell, including the –2 penalty to AC.

Wow, so that now brings up a whole bag of worms. If all my moral effects are increased via courageous weapon property and the -2 AC is a morale bonus, can I negate the penalty and even eventually get a +1 AC if my +4 courageous/furious weapon is in use? Probably no, they'd say you don't get bonuses to morale effects, just morale bonuses.

Deadkitten wrote:
I would say to avoid the bear, the extra HP is nice but it can outright kill you if your not carefull.Also, if your allies are benefiting from your raging song they have to worry about their HP as well.

I would say Bull is the only great choice if you are taking skalds vigor.

Ray-gun wrote:
The cavalier level lets you share your teamwork feat, but only for 3 plus cav lvl rds per day. Is there a way you were planning on extending this?

Valet familiar template shares all teamwork feats.

Markov Spiked Chain wrote:

You can't use Shared Spells to get the familiar to count as the caster of Shield Other.

Is there a reason you say that?

EDIT: Found it, it's because share spell only works on spells with the target of "You" and shield other targets "one creature"

Another thing that's kind of tempting me here is to access shield other and use share spell to have my familiar cast it on me, so he is the one taking half the damage, this could essentially double the effect of our fast healing.

Is it possible to share spell with the Tales of Twisting Steel masterpiece?

Also, using the totemic skald archetype you can select the bull as a totem animal, now your song provides far more strength making your vigor provide far more healing.

greater skalds vigor just provides the skalds vigor to the party, uses the same process to determine the bonus.

Fast healer feat would seem to be easy to build in due to half orcs already having free access to endurance. Get half your (inflated) con bonus to all healing effects like skalds vigor. It does not call out fast healing as not acceptable.

On the other hand amplified rage is modifying the base bonus provided by the song, not granting a separate bonus. There is certainly merit in the argument to give them the whole thing.

This build will now be used to resurrect Minsc, and give new purpose to his giant miniature space hamster Boo.

If you're going to have a valet familiar why not take Escape Route and never provoke an AOO from movement?

Absolutely agree, if you're in a wide open campaign the flying mount works out much better, and it works directly against snapshot. For my own purposes I know that snapshot will produce a higher DPR, and has an incredible cool factor when you're getting rushed by a lot of smaller minions.

I also have been playing the sylvanite EK archer, and I think they do the flying mount better. I'll be able to craft my own flying carpet which my familiar will fly for me, which essentially means my flying mount costs me nothing but a bit of gold instead of two feats. Casters get nice things again, film at 11.

I think if you play the griffon mounted ranger you need to shuffle the feats to your advantage. You have to take monsterous mount with your second level ranger feat because you don't qualify for it otherwise (removal of your animal bond feature). Monsterous mount mastery is a horrible 6th level feat when you're free to select Improved Precise Shot instead. Monsterous Mount Mastery is open to you on your normal 7th level feat and does no good to you prior to that since you need 7th character level to use the ability anyway.

Also, the griffon is only your level -1, so no need for boon companion there, very little return on investment from that feat.

I might be tempted to take mounted combat to protect your griffon a little better, and at that point I'd probably consider taking mounted archery later in the campaign if I find double moving to be useful. Remember the maps you play on are extremely tiny, you will have trouble getting off a double move on a griffon that doesnt break the map.

I'd build like this:

Ranger1 PBS, Precise
Ranger2 Monstrous Mount
Ranger3 Rapid
Ranger5 Deadly Aim IPS
Ranger7 Monstrous Mount Mastery
Ranger9 Manyshot

The whole concept of my snapshot archer is to replace the need for a switch hitter or melee ranger entirely. Archery is so vastly superior to either of those builds it's not really a choice once you see what archery is capable of. You're right to say the mounted builds need a segment. I'll add it after you guys give some feedback and we hash out what works.

I'd say the griffon mounted archer is vastly superior to the normal mounted archer. If you HAVE to play a mounted archer without a griffon/flight then yes, drop weapon focus last, but combat reflexes/snapshot/improved snapshot are immediate drops for anything else you like. Take manyshot sooner, and boon companion as soon as you like. Mounted combat is okay if you're taking return fire a lot and want to protect your mount.

So as near as I can figure the rules, it seems that if you choose to channel positive energy with rulership it means you either heal people with it or use it to harm undead, at which point you get the one round daze ability.

I'm building a cleric for mummies mask for a first time player, and I am not sure I need both, but since the saves are the same I'm not really certain I need the variant channel if I'm going to take turn undead. Does anyone have any experience with these abilities who can give me their take on which worked out better? I've read that turn undead isn't worth it.

Once the material is posted to the web I'll be happy to touch up the guide.

Grokk, I don't think it's worth it for my own purposes. Half the campaign occurs in a location where I can't be on my mount, so blowing a feat on it seems wrong to me when I have other pressing feats to take.

Edit: I think the only things I would really update are the value of the Erastil trait (old deadeye?) for the ability to completely ignore the first person in the way of your shot (ghetto IPS, and slightly better), and the bow you attune to a party member to ignore them for cover purposes. I'd probably also add the greater hat of disguise which I missed the first time around for all day small status (+2 to hit at no damage cost) and it's additional darkvision and scent capabilities to couple with pheromone arrows.

Beyond that, it's still mostly the same feats we're after. Not much new to include. After poking around online the ranged tactics toolbox appears to be more fluff than anything and doesn't add much of value. I'll see when it becomes available though.

I discuss this a lot in my archery guide for rangers

At this point, I'd recommend a greater hat of disguise for all day small status which will net you a +2 to hit, scent for pheromone arrows, and dark vision to make up for being human as well as letting you ride a medium mount.

Give up snapshot/improved snapshot if you're going for the flying mount, you won't spend as much time in the thick of things to justify it.

On the other hand, the early entry EK archer can have a familiar who can pilot a small flying carpet for your archer. This is a far cheaper way to get a flying mount IMO and the EK archer is more relevant later on in the campaign (IMO).

Wow, so many experts showing up to explain why this guy is terrible. Too bad they're not contributing to the conversation.

After some consideration if you want to replicate the movement and firing you'd need to go mobile fighter. You can get a full move off and take a full attack action for the cost of your first shot after 11th. Mobility isn't typically needed as much for archers, but if you're trying to replicate the mobility this might be best.

If you were okay with a mount then there are a ton of ways to get that done, and you don't need to invest any feats into mounted archery. Mounted archery in PF is pretty OP.

I still think the sohei/fighter I posted above is best for rate of fire though, and if you were getting to level 19 you could have both the sohei rate of fire coupled with the mobile fighters mobility. Technically stacking weapon training on top of the mobile fighters weapon training replacement ability is possible too.

Imbicatus wrote:
If you go with the whip build, a level of warpriest is a great dip. You get proficency, weapon focus, and a damage upgrade.

Warpriest gets whip proficiency? I never found where it says that.

Your example is a flat 10% lower chance to hit, shooting 25% more often. Thank you for agreeing with me and illustrating my point :-)

Also, obviously my fighter levels can be archer fighter levels as well. No loss of functionality there. The archer fighter can't use gloves of dueling, but the sohei can, this makes up for much of the lost attack progression. I can't see the drawback to diversifying.

Never take mounted combat feats for archery, they're terrible and don't justify the loss of the feat.

The only thing this guy is doing is putting a lot of arrows in the air. A Sohei archer can technically stack flurry with rapid shot and multishot to get the greatest number arrows out. I don't even think the sohei mounted combat feats replace the monk feat list, just augment them.

The only other thing you can do to fire more arrows is take the improved snapshot like with combat reflexes, but it's hard to afford on the monk feat budget.

The monk has a jump off at 8th when he gets his second flurry attack, waiting out the third at 15th is probably not worth it. I would say you stack any full BAB type after that (fighter being obvious to make up for a lack of feats). Optionally take a level of empyrial sorcerer and go eldritch knight (assuming you build in an early entry for it) for the buffs and a couple extra feats.


Monk1 PBS, Combat Reflexes, Precise Shot
Monk2 Deflect Arrows
Monk3 Rapid Shot
Monk5 Deadly Aim
Monk6 Any Monk Feat (probably deflect arrows here)
Monk7 Weapon Focus
Fighter1 Manyshot, Weapon Focus
Fighter2 Snapshot
Fighter3 Improved Snapshot
Fighter4 Weapon Specilization
Fighter5 Improved Precise Shot
Fighter6 Point Blank Master

I was just looking at iomedae (rulership). Would the daze (harm) variant channel version of that ability apply to undead when you channel positive energy to harm them?

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