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I think investing a feat into breaking things is kind of wasted. I've never really run into a situation where having feats invested into breaking things would have made me better at breaking things on my barbarians(since a zero feat investment broke my targets anyway).
Stunning Irruption is practically written out of every adventure anyway. APs seem to go through the trouble of setting you up to get surprised and writing out ways for the party to get the drop on things. Wasting a feat on something the game is actively preventing you from using most of the time is a total waste. In any even it's an ability you'd use at most once a session, a really minor perk for a large investment of a feat.
Spiked destroyer is one free attack that eats your swift action, I think it's small beans compared to vicious stomp.
Dragon style is 100% needed by this build since an overrun can (and should) be used as part of a charge to maximize what you're doing and it lets you ignore friendlies.
I almost think an urban barbarian would be the best choice here to maximize the number of vicious stomps you'd get (and later on having come and get me is awesome)
This is how I would build it:
Barbarian1 Power Attack, Improved Overrun
I'm running ROTRL with a zen archer monk3/inquisitor X build. Essentially this becomes a single stat class with a lot of casting and versatility to add to the total archery dominance. This is probably the best inquisitor multiclass I've seen. With the inquisition domain the player is able to be the focal point of all the interactions and also dominate skill checks and combat pretty well.
Exactly my point. The magus used a high DPR build and the ranger and fighter chose not to use a high DPR build. OP is pointing out the disparity as though it's a class problem, but the problem is really that when you build for performance you perform better.
Sounds like your best player is playing magus, or at least the only player who read a guide and purpose built for combat. Have him go archer or barbarian next time if you want to have some perspective on what high sustained DPR does.
Why are you trying to force a fix for sub optimal builds? If the players wanted to be really OP at combat they'd have done some reading and built a character who is good at combat. Maybe the fighter just wanted to wield two weapons, the fighter was focused on role playing and image and that's fine.
Can you tell me where it says you can have an oil of ghost touch? I've never seen this, and normally ghost touch is expensive to achieve.
People think archery is viable for a WP because it is, and TWF is in fact less so. Just look at the stats. An archer WP with 14 str, 17 dex can get pretty much everything he needs and the 14 str is only for + damage. The TWF WP needs a as high as he can get for strength, at least 17ish dex for prereqs and he's doing all that so he can spend half his time moving between targets not benefiting from his additional attacks.
It's not that the WP is bad at TWF, it's that TWF is pretty crappy for everyone who lacks a pounce mechanic.
I was just responding to the 'TWF is very, very weak' statement, because generalizations that encourage bland building annoy me. The most fun builds are often taking a weird, non-ideal concept and making it work well if not perfectly, and TWF is an ideal non-ideal.
I see this from the other angle, I've found players who have wanted to use TWF become quickly discouraged because they get to use the mechanic less than they would like due to movement, and when they do use it they end up hitting less often and for less damage per round than a very simple 2h build would have.
mad Trev wrote:
I would say the most effective overall archer is the 1 fighter/1wizard/10EK/XAA/Xwiz build. It gets you pretty much the most versatility of anyone combined with top notch damage. You don't feel excluded later in the campaign either.
Everyone is focusing on the zen archer here because it's really simple to build and play, but his damage falls off at higher levels a bit and ultimately he faces the same issues all of them do with windwall and magic effects.
Meanwhile, the EK is basically god, dropping anti magic shells with imbue arrow turning high level wizards into severely disgruntled commoners. The most effective archer isn't the most damage, it's the one who is able to do the most stuff.
Magda Luckbender wrote:
You can call them idiots and say a 7 int is exceptionally stupid, but it isn't. If a 7 was exceptionally bad intelligence a 13 int would be exceptionally smart, but the truth is no one alters their roleplay for a 13 int or charisma because it's only a small increase, thus a 7 stat is completely under the radar.
You'd be significantly reducing the effectiveness of Bashing Finish if you did that. A keen Kukri will deliver slightly less damage on its own but grant you additional attacks for the sacrifice. You can enchant your sheild spikes to be keen, but the 19-20 threat range is underwhelming for that purpose.
When you say "effective melee at low levels" what you really mean is a guy with power attack and a two handed weapon of any class. Until level 7 or so, nothing really keeps up except in a few very specific situations. Let's take my combat rogue Grud:
I like to dip weapon master fighter at level 1 and then more of it after 10 to get weapon training. I like half orc, and the following build assumes rogues are awesome, and everyone on the boards is just playing them wrong.
The rogue levels go Scout/Thug or Scout/Swashbuckler, but thug is almost immaterial and only good for debuffing. Swashbuckler gives you a second combat feat, which you can use to take Cornugan Smash if you like. Often I find myself unable to charge, and Surprise Follow-Through actually saves my bacon a fair bit because I can move freely and still get a few attacks off.
A Mighty Cleaving weapon is really nice for this guy for this reason since the cleave target is denied dex and you can use your second cleave attack on him. Three attacks at full BAB is pretty nice for a rogue at any level.
A slew of quickrunner shirts eventually assures you some sneak attacks.
Anytime you do get a full attack, you can use your orcish bite to get additional sneak attacks.
Fighter1: Power Attack, Cleave
After this, I'd invest in TWF if you can get the dex for it. Dispelling Strike, Crippling Strike and Opportunist are great, with Crippling Strike being blatantly game breaking. I've seen an 11th level rogue who just took this talent get locked in the room with the BBEG of the adventure path at that level. As it turns out the BBEG was actually locked in the room with the rogue, and combat only lasted a couple of rounds before the boss ran out of strength.
Read Shatter Defenses and Violent Display, they're pretty amazing. Cornugon Smash is a bit overkill IMO, but there is never enough ways to sneak attack for some.
Ideally, you want a bard or skald in the party with you. They really make your life easy.
I can't believe this is still being discussed. It's not even optimal to do, you're far better off taking a high crit offhand and a large shield mainhand to trigger more shield attacks on crit.
If you're saying this isn't welcome at your table, then you're only encouraging players away from something sub optimal they might want to try. Why not give them more options than two kukris or kukri/large shield?
I love the "You can't prove this exists" thing in here... no one was ever asked to provide historic evidence of magic spells being used on the battlefield. It's fantasy, and fantasy is inherently built in the minds of the players.
Magda Luckbender wrote:
Consider dumping Int to 7. The Int penalty to skill points is applied before the racial bonus you get from being human and before your favored class bonus. You're essentially only losing one skill point in dumping.
Too many "tank" builds focus too heavily on survivability, and not enough on actually being a threat. Having a huge bag of hit points and saves/DR/whatever is all well and good, but you still need to have reasons for the enemy to care enough to hit you. There is no aggro system in Pathfinder, and at a certain point enemies are going to be smart enough to ignore you and go for the mage in a dress behind you.
A 2h Barbarian with Power Attack will suffice, in my experience.
Chrome seemed to give me the best results. Firefox is having problems with google docs on some platforms right now.
I wonder what the warpriest can do. Hopefully it can keep up with the inquisitor.
Warpriests get no real additional damage mechanic. They get some extra feats, enough to snugly fit all the archery stuff they need. They provide a divine caster of some merit, but they aren't going to dominate DPR over any other archer.
Cao Phen wrote:
It's inferior to my +35/+35/+35/+35/+35/+35/+35/+35/+30/+30/+30/+30/+25/+25/+25/+25/+20/+20/+20 /+20 before haste. Once you're free to ignore the rules you can simply make stuff up as you like :-)
To get the answer you'd basically need to define what situation you mean highest DPR in. Is it single target? What monster type? Multiple targets in one encounter of the same monster type? Over the course of an entire AP (1-17)? Just until level 8?
Your question is so vague no one can possibly answer it because variables in party makeup and encounter type change the answer. You're not going to get good answers without asking specific questions.I can assure you every class shines at archer for different reasons, but asking for the best DPR you're marginalizing a couple who contribute great utility.
Assuming monks can use monk weapons with Pummeling Style (Temple sword/Sansetsukon), I think they just got fixed. I wouldn't call them weak at this point. A single style line gives them pounce in combination with the ability to crit fish effectively AND avoid the impact of DR. You'll still need to work hard to keep your hit bonus up but the monk is no slouch at this point.
Merchant Family is ridiculous. I've been using it on my character for ROTRL and I'm also the loot master (record all loot, sell loot after party agrees on distribution). I neglected to tell them about my bonus 10%, and it's essentially giving me a 40% bonus share. You can imagine how nice that is.
You should take a valet archetype familiar to double your craft output. Your 7th level feat needs to be improved familiar (faerie dragon if possible). You want max ranks on UMD so your familiar will be able to use items to fill in your missing illusion/enchantment spells and you'll have access to those schools when crafting.
" those who associate with these creatures"
That's a strictly RP/flavor clause. So you're from a family of adventurers who adopted a couple of weretiger cubs they couldnt stomach putting down or leaving to die. They got older, turned on the family and fled. News cropped up of their arrival in your new campaigns area and BAM. Here you are, a slayer hunting down his parents error in judgement.
I have this prebuilt! You need a level of fighter at 7 to really capitalize on everything and score two build critical feats:
Slayer1 PBS, (Human) Precise, (Bonus)Deadly Aim
Go read violent display and be impressed. You will want to keep a few of the free runner shirts so you get right up into combat if needed and you can intimidate. It's best to use both the bow enchant and trait from Erastil out of the more recent faiths guide. They let you actually ignore party members for cover so you can get off your AOOs even with two melee guys in the way.
This actually drastically increases the value of Summon Good Monster, because of the later LG creatures on that list fixing the issues good priests have had with summoning.
Rulership seems fine, one round and a pretty low save so it's only impacting the mooks. I think it's fairly interesting. Also factor in that this character can't afford to invest in many (if any) feats for channeling.
Magda Luckbender wrote:
awesome evangelist stuff
So what does the feat build look like for you? I've been trying to make this work for a LN Iomedae (tactics) cleric using negative rulership channeling and using the flagbearer/BOAK later in the game with a sub focus in channeling. I found that because I needed to invest in lingering performance and flagbearer in addition to selective channel I'm out of feats for summon, and the only way to channel negative is by being LN which eliminates the possibility of sacred summons I believe.
How would you suggest I structure this?
You're assuming that the DC is 10 for your numbers, which it may not be in reality. You're also assuming a lot of rerolling on very few actual rolls. I suspect it won't play out. A TWF ranger at three encounters per day and 7 rounds per encounter is throwing a lot of dice.
Let's assume 2/3 rounds full attacking at level 12 (PFS cap)
That comes out to 6 attacks a round but only 27 attacks for the encounter due to the rounds you're taking single attacks after moving.
81 attacks /
(ranger level *.5) + 3 + 1 = 10 rerolls for the day
that's 12% of your rolls you can take advantage of it, and it's only a 10% improvement on those.
It's not enough to make me change my estimates. You're still talking a net 1.2% improvement.
Of course if you're already taking eater of magic you had the superstition power before this (hopefully in conjunction with the human FCB) and you were making your saves anyway. A feat for a very rare +2 is sort of wasted on this guy, he won't need it.
Strong comeback can't be the centerpiece of a build because it's a bad feat with no real support around it in the way of regular rerolls for which a +2 is significant enough to justify the feat itself. You're talking about a 10% increased chance to make the reroll, which is a roll you only make some percentage of the time when you fail AND when you have a mechanic in place to allow a reroll.
In summation, getting a 10% bonus on 10% of your rolls is a 1% increase, and that's really paltry.
I'd try to talk the player into running a regular or OOV paladin for the archer. The divine hunter is a bad archetype IMO. If you can't talk him into swapping (especially now that he's fifth and the free feat at first level has diminished value) I'd let him just take the mount instead, who is it hurting?
Paladin baggage is relative to how difficult your GM wants it to be and how good you (as a player) are at fending off GM-based rules oppression. Default paladin by PF rules only is great to play. Some GMs remember other editions and throw additional non-core stuff at you.
I'm assuming your GM is not going to make the paladin hard to play, so I would say you're safe either way.
Adding to Akerlof, a reach based evangelist cleric with his inspire songs and also with summoning is possibly the ultimate combination of things to do with a cleric. This especially true with a banner of the ancient kings and the flag bearer feat. There will always be something to do besides healing with this build.
It sounds like you're pretty new, so instead of explaining why AC is a losing battle I'll just recommend you spend a lot of time reading the forums about bard optimization and using the search feature. Read the guides and spend some time figuring things out for yourself. It's nearly impossible to screw up a bard, and they're a ton of fun.
The best investment I made early was a glove of storing and a metamagic rod of quicken spell. Being able to begin a performance, cast Haste AND Good Hope when the BBEG rears his ugly head is like turning your party into instant supermen.
You're talking about boosting AC, but you're an archer bard. You should be finding ways to avoid having to rely on your AC anyway. Simple positioning and avoidance will yield far more return than investment into AC. You have mirror image for gods sake, which is worth more than +5 plate under most circumstances. I'd advise against investing in armor.
If you're using a reach weapon and you position yourself to game it well, it's my opinion CR will serve you much better during levels 1 and 2. Power attack at 3 is practically mandatory though. I would not recommend toughness for a barbarian. Toughness is a larger boost the lower in HD you go, so it has its lowest return on investment for a d12HD.
I'll give you my barbarian build for my current campaign, so you can see what I'm doing. Taking invulnerable rager to stack up to 18ish DR including haste bonus in late levels. We're given a free feat at level 1 and I snagged endurance from the alternate racial ability:
Barbarian1 Power Attack, Endurance, Die Hard
The only thing set in stone at level 12 and later is Come and Get me, I will probably shuffle the rest out to get spell sunder. To be clear I do not think guarded life and deathless initiate are ideal, I don't think I will be using them every fight or even in most fights. I just wanted to play a guy focused mostly on defense to see how it plays.