Laithoron's page

Well, unless female elves have a reproductive system that can simply create new eggs on demand rather than being born with all of theirs, then I'd suspect most elves having their offspring before they get to be too terribly old. Even so, that seemingly 'rapid' growth is probably part of the reason there are:

A) Half-elves
B) Low elven birth rates
C) They make certain not to consider someone adult until they've experienced (or been sufficiently sheltered from the trauma of seeing) the consequences of forming friendships with shorter-lived peoples.

Probably use the same ages for all races. Mostly for simplicity’s sake, but I feel it works for the generic setting also to say the longer lived races’ ideas of maturity are cultural, not strictly physical.

I've been preaching that for years. Nice to see a like-minded soul. :)

Actually I believe that's the exact opposite of what's being asked for. Unless I'm mistaken, Mr. Green is asking for evidence in support of the theory that the starting ages in the CRB represent the age at which a member of that race is considered to have reached the age of majority rather than the rate at which they physically grow and mature.

Black Lantern: Something else to consider is that there doesn't necessarily have to be a mechanically advantageous reason for a particular idea to be compelling to play. Some people like monks, others like halflings, some might enjoy the challenge of roleplaying someone who appears to be at a statistical disadvantage such as a character who is very young or very old.

I believe that this is one of those instances in which the reward or challenge of the character is sufficient incentive. Indeed, I suspect that were this option equally balanced with your standard adult character, it might lessen the appeal of the concept since it would merely be an illusion. There's also something to be said from doing something that no one else is...

NP, have fun with it!

Plenty of us use houserules in our PbP games. Functionally speaking there is no difference between doing that and playtesting. There aren't even any requirements that the PbP be Pathfinder.

Wow, that's some crazy chain-quoting going on there! Haha!

As for the Prehensile Hair hex, it specifies that there's no undue strain placed on the neck, etc. so I'm considering it to basically be equivalent to a telekinesis effect. Since I'd no more reduce the amount of weight that could be manipulated via telekinesis than I would make her cast tiny fireballs, I se no compelling reason to deny a strictly non-melee character a few minutes of boasting 24-Str magic hair. The imagery alone trumps any rules lawyering. :D

Funny that you should mention Niche. In the local group I GM, I just helped one of my players to reprise their old 3.5 Pixie Warmage as a Pathfinder Witch. Mind you, we're using the 3.5 racial ability score modifiers for her and she's got the Prehensile Hair ability...

Yeah, our foot-tall, 1-pound pixie can literally lift the entire party with her Str 24 hair. ;D

The Young Simple template is a decent starting point, and that's where I began. While it's not RAW, here's my approach:

Child: -4 penalty to all Ability Scores, decrease size by 1 category, and decrease speed.
Adolescent: Penalty to ability scores is halved, size is increased to normal for that species, speed penalty is removed.
Full-Grown: Penalty is removed.

NOTE: Full-Grown and the starting age are should not be considered the same thing. Unless you like the idea of elves, dwarves and gnomes wearing diapers for decades, the starting age should be regarded as the point at which those cultures see an individual of their race as an adult. Think of it like the difference in the USA between being 18 vs 21. For long-lived races that 18-21 period is what is stretched out, not the length of time it takes to physically mature. (Otherwise the race would have never survived as given how helpless humanoid babies are compared to those of other animals.)

A simple solution to those problems is to increase save DCs by +1 or +2 and perhaps double the HD affected by such spells to account for most adults having 2 to 4 HD.

Another approach would be to rule that every 2 NPC HD count only as a single normal HD, and to replace the Good saves for NPC classes with the Average/Fair progression from d20 Modern:
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  Level 1: +1
  Level 2: +2
  Level 3: +2
  Level 4: +2
  Level 5: +3
  Level 6: +3
  Level 7: +4
  Level 8: +4
  Level 9: +4
Level 10: +5

The Forumula is 1.2 at 1st then +0.4 at each level, rounded to the nearest whole number (rather than rounded down).

EDIT: Thanks for the heads-up Void!

The elf could be given almost all the fluff translated into racial bonuses. However, the level adjustment for that is not going to be zero. It would be at least three. There is a difference between novel literature and game literature.

Actually this can be explained simply thru the fact that they have many times the experience that other races have simply by virtue of living for so long. If you took a 20 year old human and a 20 year old elf, they'd be roughly comparable. However, by the time that elf has reached the age where their society considers them to be adult (i.e. the equivalent of 21 in human culture), they are probably level 4 or 5. Someone who is several levels ahead of you is going to seem pretty damned impressive no matter what race they are.

I worked out a spreadsheet illustrating this for another poster just the other day actually: [ Discussion | Spreadsheet ]

Anyway, that right there can account for most of the fluff from literature. Why are elves reputed to be the best spellcasters? Sure the boost vs SR and the Int bonus help, but the biggest reason is that as far as non-adventurers go, they are the only race to live long enough to reach the levels necessary to cast higher-level spells.

But one should insist, out of fairness, that since elves value age and experience, all contenders be of the same age. So a fifty year old veteran human wizard must be compared to a fifty year old near elven child with his latest interest in magic (but no actual levels, sorry, many decades away from first level).

Actually my theory supports this trope. Why are adventurers are just so shocking to most people? Because their dangerous lifestyles cause them to advance in level at a rate that catches the elders of a human village, dwarven nobles, or even youngish (~mid 100 year old) elves by surprise. That 50yo elf probably has a couple levels already, but compared to the 20-30yo human who has actually been out and adventuring, he'll likely be in for a humbling surprise. :)

Those elves who actually start at 1st level when adventuring are most likely really young (by elvish standards), having probably another 70-80 years to go before they are 'considered' adults — even though they are already fully grown by the time they are in their 20s.

Sure thing. I might make a view showing the ages at which NPCs of various races hit each level, but I figured this gives a better high-level view of things. (Also, my local and PbP groups might lynch me if I keep spending so much time working on side projects like this.)

Originally I'd done this under the 3.5 XP track, so the results are MUCH different now, but I think the results are still believable. Let me know if you find a settings combo that produces results you like. Perhaps using 3.5 for 3.5×2 XP for non-adventuring NPCs then switching over to Pathfinder Medium if they take up adventuring would work...

I'm always a sucker for cool vehicles. Ships, automated carriages, flying vessels... those would all be of interest to me.

I think that keeping your character on Google Docs is the best idea.

Well, the program used to create a character and where you choose to place the exported character are two different matters. There's nothing that says you can't export your character from either of those programs and then upload the PDF (or PNG, html, etc) to Google, DropBox, or any other location.

While (like Karl) I prefer to create my own character sheets/generators, one of my players swears by HeroLab. In fact, the only reason I'm not using it is due to the fact that it doesn't support Gestalt characters without manually building a custom class to fake it. From what I recall, the interface was easy enough to work with (my friend is new to the game actually and he could work it), and there is a lot of content available.

IMO, you should download the free trial and test both out to see which works best for you. Don't allow price (or a lack thereof), be the deciding factor. The amount of time a good tool can save you can easily pay for itself.

If I were you, I'd try performing a search of the forums for various Excel character sheets/character creators. There are more than a few Paizonians who have posted theirs over the years and many have a great deal of the character building functionality built-in.

Happy to help. Have fun and let us know what you come up with! :)

My Character Sheet: Example of Blank Excel Sheet

Personally my preference is to use a spreadsheet program such as Microsoft Excel. One trick I employ for the layout is to size column to a width of "2" and rows to a height of "14.25". This results in a square grid. I then form the boxes in which to write/type information by merging cells, applying border or background formatting etc.

In terms of layout, you can either mimic the format used on another sheet, or you can try to come up with a layout that you think makes things easier. Using mine as an example, I wanted something that would reduce the clutter of lots of fill-in and modifier fields while allowing me to display a greater amount of information. Part of the reason for this is that my player would often get confused about which numbers were the important ones.

So, in addition to learning how to use whatever tool you are interested in (you could even use a ruler, markers, and paper then photocopy it), you'll want to give consideration to what the sheet is going to accomplish that the 100s of others that are already out there can't. Just be aware that the more you try to accomplish, the longer you'll be working on it and the less energy you'll have to play or GM. ;) Also worth noting is that many times GMs will want all their players to use the same style of sheet so that they can more easily double-check info.

Hope this helps!

EDIT: Since you mentioned notepad, it now occurs to me that you might have been asking about character sheets for the forums. In that case, here's are links to the template I created for the PbP character sheets my group uses along with an examples of what they look like when filled out:

• PbP BBCode Character Sheet
  
• Alis Kirmoon, Gestalt Bard (NPC)
  
• Felmor Traker, Fighter/Rogue (Eric Swanson)
  
• Amhranai, Cleric/Rogue (LusipherPE)

Just wanted to let you guys know that I'm ALMOST finished with the new character sheet template and database for tabletop games. This has been nothing short of a monumental project, but I think (read: hope) that it will all be worth it. If nothing else, the layout and usefulness of the information presented is greatly improved.

The only thing I have left to do at this point is move over the inventory/HP tracking page from my old database. At some point (if I get really ambitious) then I might try to separate the templates themselves into another file so that they can be modified in one spot and used for any/all characters.

Here's hoping I can wrap it up this weekend. I'm eager to be done with staring at Excel for 6+ hours a day! @_@

Screenshots: Example of Blank Sheet

Yeah I just downloaded all the errata and found it. Wow, what a perfectly fitting end to an absolutely s+!@ty f+%%ing week. Glad there's a Rogue talent for this now. >.>

Read up on the rules: Elves don't get an active roll to notice secret doors any more. Only dwarves have such an ability (stonecunning), which just goes to show that dwarves are annoying in all ways.

Not that I'll disagree with the dwarf statement but... I'm looking at page 414 of my CRB and at the end of the first paragraph under Secret Doors it states: "Elves have a chance to detect a secret door just by casually looking in an area."

Was this removed in an errata? O_o;

I had to reupload the file. Please use the following link instead. My apologies to any Office 2003 users, but saving to the older version breaks stuff...

NPC Level by Age Category: http://wiki.worldsunknown.com/wiki/File:NPC-Level-by-Age.xlsx

Alright, it took me a few hours to recreate it, but linked below is the spreadsheet showing how I determine the level of NPCs based upon how old they are. Here are a few definitions that help to explain the calculations involved...
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• Sentient: The age at which you can begin reasoning with a member of this race. Roughly preschool age. LOG(Venerable) × 2
  
• Child: The age at which a member of this race begins gaining XP. Roughly elementary school. Sentient × 2
  
• Adolescent: Onset of puberty. Roughly junior high. Sentient × 3
  
• Full-Grown: The age at which a member of this race reaches physical and mental maturity. Roughly high school. Sentient × 4
  
• Starting: The age at which their culture will generally allow a member of this race to enter the work force, get married, be treated as an adult, etc. From CRB. Does not include the random modifier for PC classes.
  
• Max: The average max age for a member of this race.
  
• XP per Day: This principle is based on the theory that you learn something new every day. Compared to adventuring, this amount is quite small, but it adds up over time.
  
• Mental Ability Score Modifier: My supposition is that characters who are more intelligent or more wise are able to learn from the life's experience more quickly or more efficiently than others.

  Note that there are NO racial ability score modifier applied to the calculations. Therefore if you decide to use Int as the mental ability score, you'll need to manually give elves a +1. Personally I recommend using Int since no core race has an Int penalty. I have limited this modifier to -3 (i.e. Int 5) to +10 (Int 30). Allowing for lower modifiers simply results in characters who are incapable of learning.

XP Calculation
Starting at childhood, characters earn a configurable amount of xp per day. Additionally, they gain 1 xp per point of their Mental Ability Score Modifier at a configurable interval. If desired, you can configure a negative starting XP to effectively make children 0th level.

The functionality that allows intellect to be factored into the XP calculations is modified by a character's current age category to take into account aging modifiers:

• Children: -2 modifier per the Young Simple template
  
• Adolescent: -1 modifier halved the Young Simple modifier
  
• Middle Age: +0.5 modifier +1 to mental ability scores
  
• Old Age: +1 modifier +2 to mental ability scores
  
• Venerable: +1.5 modifier +3 to mental ability scores

NPC Level by Age Category: http://wiki.worldsunknown.com/wiki/File:NPC-Level-by-Age.xls

What do you think is absurd, that people populating the world are NPC classes at all, or that the vast majority is 1st level NPC classes?

That the vast majority are 1st level. To me it breaks verisimilitude along with far too many story tropes.

I would like to read your ideas about the age+intellect correlation to level.

I don't seem to have my old guidelines handy anymore so I'm currently rebuilding them using an Excel spreadsheet. I'll reply a bit later once I'm finished. :)

As someone who finds the notion of a world populated predominantly by 1st level [adult] NPCs absurd, I find this idea intriguing. There was recently another thread about level limits based on age where I repeated my notion of 'passive XP' for non-adventurers.

I think that premise might be a good fit for what you are proposing here and vice-versa. Basically, determine a correlation between age+intellect and what character level that translates to. Once you have that worked out, I'd say you have the framework needed to make this internally consistent. I used to have this all worked out by race, maybe I need to find my notes on it again...

The biggest issue that I see is one of balance, but since 'monsters' who are built using just NPC classes are considered to be CR-2, that should give you a pretty good rule of thumb to work off of.

EDIT: As nosig points out, this could run into some oddness with skill points, however there is a pretty simple solution for this — use Gestalt or 2nd Edition style advancement. :)

You just blew my mind!

"Seriously, the cone-shaped red hats didn't tip you off? Don't tell me they fooled you with the fluffy white trim and the pom-pom..." Laithoron's voice trails off at the Tiny Coffee Golem's mind goes *BOOM*

"Oh hell... First Eric Swanson and now you?"

*sigh*

Laithoron rolls out the wet/dry ShopVac™ and gets to work... again.

"I'm going to need to call Stanley Steamer this weekend," he grumbles.

have generally assumed that you only need two hands on a bow when you are actually shooting with it, which means that you would have a free hand when you need it but would find it highly inconvenient to actually hold anything in that hand. Does anyone else play it differently?

I rule it the same way. That's the main reason why I prefer a 1-handed melee weapon that can also be used in 2-hands if need be. Unlike a greatsword, you can still wield a longsword or bastard sword (if proficient) one-handed without dropping your precious bow.

RedPorcupine wrote:

Lathiira wrote:

Elves are also known for baking tasty cookies. Does that count?

Don´t think so. I believe it´s halflings, who are famous for cookies, elves are infamous for salads. Brrr..

You mean Keebler's been lying to me all these years? He's a halfling, not an elf? AAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not only that but Santa's 'elves' are actually tinker gnomes.

That did the trick, thanks!

Is there a way to remove a thread from our list of hidden threads?

The reason I ask is, it looks like I must have experienced some lag a few minutes ago while doing some housekeeping on my Focus page. I clicked the hide button next to a thread I wished to hide, and when it didn't disappear, I thought perhaps my wireless mouse was acting up so I clicked again. When I noticed the loading icon for the page wasn't moving, I then thought that perhaps Chrome had frozen so I clicked yet again (ok, probably several more clicks actually).

A few moments later, I was chagrined when the thread I had intended to hide along with about half a dozen others that I wanted to keep tabs on. ^_^;

Is there some way to get those back off my hidden list, I really don't want to reveal all my hidden threads as that will junk things up too much.

Ain'tcha glad you have a whole stable of free software testers? ;)

Love the Manowar reference! Gods of War kicks ass! XD

I've really enjoyed GMing the NPCs from Serpent's Skull thus far. I daresay more than a few of them have grown on the PCs as well. One of my players is even hoping to keep Sasha on as their cohort and has become romantically involved with her.

Disclaimer: I haven't read Carrion Crown at all, don't know much about Legacy of Fire, have only read the first part of Crimson Throne, and only know the pre-existing NPC from Jade Regent (Ameiko and Shalelu).

I wouldn't suggest that a high level AP should try to be written into any given party's backstory. That would not only be futile but it would seem kind of like reverse railroading. Rather, just like with any other AP, the author could suggest possible plot hooks that might interest a given party. That's all I would expect or even want frankly.

While Serpent's Skull started at level 1, the supplied plothooks and the faction-based nature of the AP provided the perfect platform for me (as GM) to interface with an existing scenario I'd had percolating in my head for a few years. It wasn't difficult at all to figure out a way to mesh that homebrew story arc into what JJ had already written even though it presumed brand new characters. The same should hold true for a story specifically crafted for higher-level PCs.

While I'm a firm believer in the notion that the party needs to be the center of the story, that doesn't mean that they exist in a vacuum. Other things happen in the world without their involvement. Red Hand of Doom (co-authored by JJ) was an excellent example of an EVENT that happens in the game world that existing 5th-6th level characters happen to get mixed up in because they are in the right place at the right time. I think the key here would be keeping the locale generic enough that it could easily be dropped into a number of different locations be they in Golarion or elsewhere.

Now perhaps co-opting the Adventure Path line to do something like that isn't prudent, but a single volume "mega-adventure" like RHoD every now and again might be something to think about. Hell, with all the 3PPs out there, there's nothing stopping another company or writer from doing something like this. The only challenge then is matching Paizo's production values and working around any settings-specific issues that might infringe on Paizo's IP rules.

Why are people presuming that just because some folks would like to start an AP at a higher level that they would be using brand new characters with no history? My PbP group began Serpent's Skull at about 4th level and we had somewhere around 5000 posts across an RP Tavern, Crypt of the Everflame, and a homebrew story arc before we ever set sail for Sargava.

As I see it, the reason why some of us want to start an AP at something other than level 1 is because we already have established characters we want to continue roleplaying, and it would break continuity to simply reset them back to 1st level. Also, I can assure you that even with a tool like Combat Manager, ramping up each encounter is not only a pain in the neck, but it can have some decidely unexpected results.

Mind you, I understand JJ and Paizo's reasons for not taking this chance, and I can't fault them on it. My response is predominantly aimed at those who don't understand why some of us want to start at a higher level — it's because we already progressed thru the low levels in other stories.

Good idea for a resource. Here are the links to various maps that I've made/used for various encounters on Smuggler's Shiv. Mind you, in my PbP, the characters are higher level and therefore the cannibals have been giant-sized. As a result, some of these maps might be the wrong scale for others to re-use...
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• A - Castaway Beach original map
  
• B - Wreck of the Jenivere ship from a PDF I bought, drew the rest
  
• M - Cannibal Ambush found map BG on a map share
  
• N - Abandoned Hut original map
  
• P - Low Tidal Causeway original map
  
• R - The Night Voice based on one of the Ships Map Packs, heavily modified by hand
  
• S - The Fungal God original map

Is there some limit for aging per level ?

For me it depends on race. For a human, I'd consider high-school age to be about 1st level, with someone old enough to be entering the work force of about 2nd level. Additional levels of degrees beyond that could translate into additional levels. Non-adventuring characters who are exceptionally wise or intelligent may level-up somewhat faster because they are able to assimilate information and experiences more quickly. For non-adventuring humans, I would generally consider level 5-6 to be about the limits of human potential before you start getting into superhuman feats.

Now consider that in fantasy, the long-lived races are always portrayed as much more bad ass than humans. Why would this be?

Well, for one thing, elves do not take 100 years to grow-up physically — they'd never survive. Instead, they mature at about the same rate as humans. The key difference is cultural. Whereas the age of majority for a human might be 18 to 21, the age of majority for an elf is 100 to 110. This means that an elf who has just reached the age of majority has about 80 years of experience over a human who has just reached the age of majority.

All things being equal then, if a non-adventuring human were able to reach about level 5-6 in their 70-80 years, it seems reasonable to suggest that another humanoid race with very similar racial statistics would achieve a similar level of expertise. Thus, the reason why elves and dwarves often seem far superior to humans in works of fantasy isn't due to inherently superior genetics (beyond lifespans), but rather due to experience.

To turn it around, if you took a level 5 human adventurer of age 30 and contrasted them against a level 1 elf who is 20, that human would seem fantastically powerful to the young elf. By the same token your average 100 year old non-adventuring elf who is level 5 probably seems pretty powerful to your average young human, and even pretty impressive to a human who is fairly advanced in their field (due to the elf not having any aging penalties yet).

Part of the way I determined this was based on the old adage, "You learn something new every day." While it was originally based on a different XP scale (3.5's), at one point, I worked out the math for characters basically gaining 1XP/day. Each week they would gain an additional amount equal to their Wisdom modifier. (Averaging their mental ability scores and deriving a modifier from that would probably also work.)

This results in a fairly believable spread of NPCs, with the most powerful magic, and the most skillful smiths being in the hands of the long-lived races. Why don't rich and powerful humans simply raise each other from the dead when assassinated? Good luck finding an elven elder who can be bothered with every time that happens! For my purposes, I found that this conformed rather nicely to time-honored fantasy tropes and why it is that young adventurers often stand out and surprise even elders with their aptitude.

Quite simply, aside from perhaps the occasional skirmish or call to war, most NPCs will not see much 'adventuring'. As such, they are generally justified in being able to anticipate someone's level of expertise based on their general age and how intelligently that person presents themselves. This reinforces the notion of adventurers as iconoclasts.

Hope this helps!

All the "cheesecake/practical armor" threads all kinda blur together for me too. :)

Heh, it would be kind of amusing if Paizo someday adds a "similar threads" feature to the forum and we get to see all the old threads listed right there alongside the latest one. ;)

Oh and some more artwork...

• Comm: Erinwe color rogue/archer
  
• Comm: Rill'e Color elven paladin
  
• Commission: Geneva Cruz armored bodice
  
• Guardian Knight fantasy plate
  
• Girl and cat cool cartoony knight

Added a reply of my own to the article. A nice review even with the misspellings.

My only nitpicks were:

The only things I would like to add are:

* Pathfinder does not use "facing" rules, so I could potentially see pawns with different images on each side confusing that fact (even though I do agree it would have been nice aesthetically).
* IMO since this set is an introduction to a larger system, Paizo would have been remiss not to provide guidance on additional *key* products for new customers. My only beef here is that their Gamemastery Guide would have made more sense to tout than their novel line. Otherwise I found the ads for the Core Rulebook, Bestiary, and World Guide poignant, useful, and unobtrusive, certainly not spam.

Cf. The Stormwind Fallacy:

http://mtgsalvation.com/928-at-the-gathering-the-stormwind-fallacy-teflon-r edux.html

That link won't work as-posted due to the way the Paizo forums parse long strings of unbroken text. Here's the correction:

http://mtgsalvation.com/928-at-the-gathering-the-stormwind-fallacy-teflon-r edux.html

(Poignant link btw, good thinking.)

When I DM, I take out level drain, replacing it with an aging effect (touch = +1d6 years to your character's life), and I make ability damage/drain into a temporary effect which goes away on its one at a rate of 1 per hour.

Personally I'd find that much more horrifying than how it is now. Instead of a temporary and reversible condition, you're instead permanently altering a potentially beloved character forever. That may be great for a horror-based game, but I wouldn't like it one bit if this was core rather than a houserule. I used to never cast Haste or allow Haste to be cast upon my characters in 2nd Ed for fear of them aging.

As for your house rule for ability damage, while I'm able to track time fairly precisely in my PbP, I think I'd find the added bookkeeping in a live game to be burdensome.

Regardless, what ever works for your group is all that matters. I just wanted to point out that some of us might prefer otherwise. :)

Haha! Considering the name of my SS PbP, I love that you guys keep referring to Serpent's Skull games as rumbles in the jungle! XD

Looks like I have some more paper minis to add to my shopping list...

Pasting automatically creates a new layer.

In terms of adventures, I would recommend running Crypt of the Everflame. This is my go-to adventure for brand new players/GMs, or those new to Pathfinder. As an added benefit to the GM (and additional cool-factor for the players) it even has its own Flip Mat available which means you can just cover the mat with black paper and remove sections of the paper as they explore to reveal more of the dungeon! That might seem a bit pricey for a single adventure, but I've run this now for about 3 different groups as has a friend of mine who just started GMing. If there's a chance you'll repeat this with different groups, it would be worth the investment as it will save a LOT of time drawing, etc.

I would also recommend you check out the brand new Beginner's Box as that WILL teach you (and the players) the game without overwhelming you. In fact, you could run the party thru Everflame using the rules from the Beginner's Box.

Alright, I've created a question thread on Abode's forums to see if that produces any results. Just so I (and anyone else who might need it) can find it again, here is the link:
Alpha/Transparency lost when copying images from PDF in Adobe Reader X (Windows)

Thanks again to everyone here for your willingness to help, it's appreciated!

Foreground was set to black and background to white. I changed both to white just now but there was no change. I also tried setting the new file background options to white, background color, and lastly transparent, all with no change. It was a good thought though.

I suppose at this point maybe I should find myself a large trout and slap some of the people on Adobe's forums around a bit to see if they have any ideas. Paizo isn't the only company that uses transparency in their PDFs and I'm sure I'm not the first Windows user to try this. (All evidence here to the contrary. ;)

Sorry, Preview, is the standard PDF/Image viewer that is built into OS/X, so no help for windows folks.

Well now I don't feel so bad for not knowing what you were talking about at least. ;)

On Windows, Acrobat X allows you to highlight and copy and image with ctrl-C. I know when I paste that into mspaint or paint.net you don't get the Alpha preserved. WHich is what we want here. I don't have photoshop for any plateform, but I used to, and I recall either under the edit, or file menu there is an option to create a new image from the clip board, or it may create a new canvas that is the dimensions of the clipboard. After which you can try pasting and seeing if the transparency is preserved.

Your recollection is correct on both counts. Photoshop automatically sizes the canvas of the new document to whatever graphics is in the clipboard. However, the transparency info doesn't survive the copypasta process (at least not with CS3) because that's exactly what I've been trying.

I'm starting to wonder if maybe it's the copy mechanism itself that is at fault...

It's OK. At least I know that it's *supposed* to be an easy process and not something convoluted — that means there's a better chance of finding a solution. Thanks again for your help.

Actually, if I just select an image from Reader and just drag it to my Desktop, I get a TIFF with an alpha channel.

Evidently Adobe must not have felt the need to implement this in the Windows version of Adobe Reader. I'm running Win7 and when I try to drag an image out of Adobe Reader X, I get a circle with a line through it. (Even though that same trick would work with Chrome or a host of other apps.)

At least now I know that it's *supposed* to be simple. Thanks for the reply, Vic.

I'm certain Windows has a tool built in, but I never use it, so I don't know what it is.

It's PrintScreen (for all monitors) or Alt+PrintScreen (for the currently focused app). In in Win 7 you can also just use the clipping tool. However, that's still requires manual editing... avoiding that is kind of the point.

You can also copy from Reader X and then "New From Clip Board" with Preview and save it as a PNG with alpha.

What do you mean "New From Clip Board with Preview"? I don't see that as a named option in either Reader X or Photoshop.

I wonder if maybe the issue is that my copy of Photoshop is too old... What OS and what version of Photoshop are you using?

I'm running the Windows version of CS3. When I read the earlier replies, I right-clicked the graphic and choose Copy in Reader X, then went into Photoshop and selected File-> New and then pasted the contents of the clipboard into the resulting file. This resulted in the same black area with only the RGB, Red, Green, and Blue channels present.

Thanks for the replies all, there's got to be some solution to this for the PC crowd...

Even using Adobe Reader X, if you copy an image from a PDF and paste it right into a new file in Photoshop, the transparent areas are still completely black. There is no alpha channel available to select, nor is there any sort of a layer mask that I can see (at least not in CS3 anyway).

Snagging or restoring that transparency info seems to be the elusive holy grail of this whole process...

Could it be that we need to have a certain color profile available?

Nope. It doesn't look like anyone in the party has even in a single point in any of the craft skills, let alone 5.

Sasha has a single point in Craft: Pioneering, but that's not enough to train anyone on. Mind you, I don't think anyone but her has done one iota of crafting while on Reaver's Shiv (let alone making weapons and armor), so I'm not sure how it could have plausibly been picked-up on anyway. ;)

Hmm, a cloth aventail seems kind of odd to me, but that does indeed appear to be what it is. Thanks for the sharp eyes, Mournblade!

Kae, are you imply that our plastic heroine stole her face from teenage boy? OR (blasphemous sort that you are) are you suggesting that Iomedae's clerics are all tomboys and that it was the goddess herself who stole a boy's face?

I think some androgynous inquisitors shall be hearing about this, where is High Inquisitor Pat?

Alternatively...
If you can't find any cross-class skills that you'd really like to have as class skills, you may instead gain 1 skill point of additional training from someone else provided you have 2 or fewer skill points in that skill.