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Grazzt

LMPjr007's page

Pathfinder Society Member. 3,292 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
Whoever it was that did the Zeitgeist AP [It was EN Publishing 'wolf. Thanks 'wolf.] Solid is as solid does, and their Campaign Setting is extremely well developed. The steampunkery of it might frighten off some fans.

On my list. Thanks!

Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
Richard Develyn. Rave reviews for adventures that mean something. And as a smaller 3PP, I'd rather support him than a behemoth. And the behemoths tend to favour safe, generic and boring themes we've seen since the hobby's inception.

Don't know him, so I will need more research on him.

Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
Kobold Press - well, mostly because I think Midgard is also well supported as a Campaign Setting, but it would have to be authored by Wolfgang Baur, Ben McFarland or similar - not because they are the best or the greatest (though given the Breaking of Forstor Nagar and IMHO To Resurrect the Steigenadler from Midgard Tales for Ben and an old 3E adventure by Wolfgang called The Gryphon's Legacy), but because they have a passion for the Campaign Setting, and if it's just a freelancer hired by them, then it isn't really much of a KP thing then is it?

Sent out a email to Ben, waiting to hear back. I know how busy he can be so it might be tough.

Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
And that's a point I made earlier - I am talking Campaign Settings more than the 3PP's that provide them, or the freelancers they hire.

Yep.

Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
Little Red Goblin Games/Necropunk Campaign Setting, or failing that if it is too sci-horror, something new they cook up or any of their mini campaign settings. I don't actually think I have seen an adventure by them, but they are always actually transparent, on time and brimming to overflowing with unique ideas. Which the behemoths are not.

OK.

Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
Kyoudai Games - Thunderscape is an awesome book, the Campaign Setting is well developed across media platforms over at least two decades and they write adventures as well. Nocturnals and the Fallen beg for a Crisis of the World Eater.

Sounds good.

Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
Rite Publishing's Kaidan deserves a visit. Rite know adventures fairly well (Adventure Quarterly, the aforementioned Breaking, and the Kaidan line). Kaidan also benefits from being more in the fantasy wheelhouse than any of the Sci-fantasy stuff.

I would like to even include their Questhaven line too.

Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
I'd love to see a visit to Skybourne, but I'm not sure if it is as ready as it would need to be. From what I have read, Woodfaring Adventures sounds like a lot of fun.

Agreed.

Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
As much as I am incensed by the lack of movement on Steampunk Musha, and dislike recommending them for that reason, Fat Goblin Games Shadows over Vathak. Lots of support, and authors who are fairly invested in the setting. And it's creepy as hell. World Eater all-you-can-eatery. But that Steampunk Musha thing is really a thorn, and I would hesitate to support a KS that included them - though to be fair, Rick is trying his hardest to pick up the slack after a massive blowout on/of collaboration.

Shadows over Vathak is more likely be the one we talk about adding to Crisis of the World Eater.

Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
You'll see I do not include anything from Frog God or Legendary Games. I don't really have anything to say about FGG as I have none of their stuff, and it all looks a bit ho-hum. Old-Skool was cool when it was old-skool. Now it just feels like a retread I no longer need. Even the Legendary Planet stuff looks like the same old thing, with the same big Paizo-conversant AP-alumni names, but in space.

Both Frog God and Legendary Games are not just good 3PP that are friends, who's quality is never in question. While it might not be fore everyone, they are something that 3PP would like to see included.

Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
LPJ's Neo-Exodus and the creepy one [Obsidian Apocalypse 'wolf. Thanks 'wolf] don't need a mention, because I doubt you'd curate this without including them.

NeoExodus, Yes. Obsidian Apocalypse, Maybe.

Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
TPK sedem to be doing a run of interesting adventures.

I will be getting in touch with them.

Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
SAGA RPG stuff looks good, and their world fairly polished.

Don't know much about them to make a comment either way.

Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
Raging Swan Press as a constant presence is a good idea - perhaps a little Dressing in each volume?

I have wanted to work with Creighton Broadhurst for a while so this might be my way to do it

Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
Purple Duck's Porphyra also has a lot of support.

Of course.

Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
I'm not really a fan of Veranthea or Aventyr, but they seem to be well supported and well managed.

Agreed.

Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
Oh yes - just read the poster before me: Green Ronin.

That will be "tricky" for several reason. We will have to see.

Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
Which also makes me think of two others - whoever it was that did Razor Coast (umm, that WAS actually FGG nitwit. Oooooh. Well then. Is good I like. Except they never fixed the Yohunga class...)

No comment.

Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
Cerulean Seas. Very well supported. Though more of a bunch of rulesets and expansions than a themed Campaign Setting.

I have to see if they are still supporting the Cerulean Seas line.

Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
Oh, and Mystical Kingdom of Monsters, if they present their Campaign Setting.

I will have to learn more about them. Thanks for all your input!


Since I have heard more that once about "companies involved had good reputations" who would you want to see involved? Basically which 3PP are automatically ones you would give money to support AND why?

And if you are real daring, what 3PP would you NOT support in something like this AND why?


Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
Ha Louis - you almost FASERIP'd it!

LOL!!!! You know it!!!!! Just wait for the Shift X level reward!


OK I changed the rewards level and I came up with these:

REWARDS

$1 - Back for a Buck (B4$): Thank You. Your name listed as a donor, our eternal gratitude, and lots of good karma!

$2 - Retailer Level: Funding at this level gives retailers the opportunity to purchase printed copies for their retail locations. These copies will be shipped in the US via Media Mail only. Qualified retailers, libraries or distributors only. Contact LPJ Design (LMPjr007 at Gmail.com) to confirm before pledging. This pledge is the only way for retailers, libraries or distributors to get the product, which WILL NOT otherwise be offered through distribution

$20 - Basic Digital: You get PDF copies of Alpha and Omega adventure of Crisis of the World Eater adventures .

$40 - Digital: You get PDF copies of all the adventures and side treks of Crisis of the World Eater. This rewards include all stretch goals that are reached.

$100 - Basic Printed. You get a collected full color softcover printed version of Crisis of the World Eater. You get PDF copies of all the adventures and side treks of Crisis of the World Eater.This rewards include all stretch goals that are reached.

$140 - Advanced Printed. You get a collected full color hardcover printed version of Crisis of the World Eater. You get PDF copies of all the adventures and side treks of Crisis of the World Eater.This rewards include all stretch goals that are reached.

$175 - Excellent Level Reward.You get a collected full color hardcover printed version of Crisis of the World Eater. You get PDF copies of all the adventures and side treks of Crisis of the World Eater.This rewards include all stretch goals that are reached. Your image as the basis of a headshot that will appear in the Crisis of the World Eater book OR future LPJ Design release. Limit 35 people

$200 - Remarkable Level Reward. You get a collected full color hardcover printed version of Crisis of the World Eater. You get PDF copies of all the adventures and side treks of Crisis of the World Eater.This rewards include all stretch goals that are reached. You will be able to pitch your ideas for future 3PP original content over Skype and you'll join the ranks of fully credited designers in the Crisis of the World Eater book. Limit 20 people

$300 - Incredible Level Reward. You get a collected full color hardcover printed version of Crisis of the World Eater. You get PDF copies of all the adventures and side treks of Crisis of the World Eater.This rewards include all stretch goals that are reached. You will be able to pitch your ideas for future 3PP original content over Skype and you'll join the ranks of fully credited designers in the Crisis of the World Eater book. Also you will to submit up to three (3) feats, three (3) spells, three (3) magic items and / or three (3) monsters (subject to design review, see FAQ) for Crisis of the World Eater book OR future LPJ Design release. Limit 15 people

$400 - Amazing Level Reward. You get a collected full color hardcover printed version of Crisis of the World Eater. You get PDF copies of all the adventures and side treks of Crisis of the World Eater.This rewards include all stretch goals that are reached. You will be able to pitch your ideas for future 3PP original content over Skype and you'll join the ranks of fully credited designers in the Crisis of the World Eater book. Also work with the LPJ Design team to create one of eight iconic characters for Crisis of the World Eater. Your name will be listed in Adventure Path Iconics: Crisis of the World Eater as a design and a free copy of that book when it is released. Limit 8 people


Endzeitgeist wrote:
Reviewed first on Endzeitgeist.com, then submitted to Nerdtrek and GMS magazine and posted here, on OBS and d20pfsrd.com's shop.

Thanks for the review.


Skylancer4 wrote:
People who want the limited edition hardcover want it for various reasons. Not just that it will be one of twenty five. If this is the only time you are printing it, increasing the number in circulation won't really be an issue I don't think. Especially if you state upfront that you might open up more of those print slots if demand requires it. I think limiting the print option is probably a good idea, especially considering what the poor guys at DSP have been through to date with UltPsi, if you are unsure on how much interest and funding you are going to get. They are still going through fulfillment issues on physical products and it has been one of the major headaches they ran into from most updates they sent out.

Another way that we might handling this is the color version are ONLY available during the kickstarter, while the B&W version are available for retail sales only. So the people who support the kickstarter actually get something unique.

Thanael wrote:
I think Steve's attitude is probably more widespread in Kickstarter backers than you might think. I certainly tend towards that too.

I am noticing that.

Thanael wrote:
Check out the pledge levels of FGG and Kobold kickstarters for examples.

I will. Thanks!

Thanael wrote:
Also more input about the content, concept and crew is IMO needed. Personally I'm not that excited yet. I need more details. If Boomers stuff from the Tumbler makes it in I'm hyped. He spent a lot of thought on the concept and made some gorgeous high level NPCs. Including the tarrasque or even several tarrasques (dare I say mythic tarrasque) tying this to Rovagug being freed would certainly up the interest IMO.

That is the plan.

Prime Evil wrote:
It sounds like the structure of the adventure path will be quite different to that of traditional APs. I presume that the various side treks will allow parties to take various non-linear paths from the opening adventure to the big finale (which I presume need to be tightly scripted)?

Correct. Very correct.

Prime Evil wrote:
Will the side treks be ranked into different tiers so that you can choose those appropriate for your own group's power level? Will there be any linkages between the various side treks or are they completely standalone?

The side treks were built to expand the main three adventures (which we refer to as Alpha, Delta and Omega). My original though process was that PCs would start at 3rd level with the Prequel, then move on to Alpha for 4th to 6th; 1st side trek group (5th to 12th); Delta (10th to 12th); 2nd side trek group (11th to 18th); finally Omega (16th and up). We have debated this with the writers and project manager and come up with several options to handle the side treks, but nothing is in stone as of yet.

Prime Evil wrote:
Can you say anything else about how you will manage the plot structure?

We are keeping the actual plot close to the chest, because it is the "special sauce" of this adventure path. But, we have created "beats" AKA important moments that help propel the plot along to it exciting conclusion. Plus we have come up with a way that people will get a chance to see AND play part of this the amazing AP before we do the kickstarter.


Steve Geddes wrote:

I don't know if I'm one of "people" but if so, I'm not confused. I understand the proposal - I think limiting the funds the kickstarter can raise in this way is a bad idea.

If I can't get a full colour hardcover (for which I'll pledge a stupidly high amount for) then I won't back the kickstarter (PDFs are valueless to me and black and white versions of colour books are not of interest). So the project is less likely to reach stretch goals - for no good reason, as far as I can see.

OK This has confused me personally since doing kickstarters, I am actually amazed at the amount of people who what hard cover editions of book. I as a creator want to make product that people can reasonable afford and with that the cost of a full color hard cover seems to be too expensive and cost prohibitive. That is the reason I do soft cover B&W and color version. But it seems to me I have been looking at this the wrong way.

Duiker wrote:
My feelings exactly. I've backed several 3pp APs and books over the last year on Kickstarter. I like the PDFs just fine as a value added, but if I'm not getting a physical book, I'm not backing the Kickstarter. There's no reason to do so. In my mind, Kickstarters are for more or less finished projects that require the upfront capital to print the books cost-effectively. I'm not willing to front the money for the development in the first place, that's much higher risk than I'm willing to put into a project (and is how you get stuff like the Fire Mountain Games fiasco).

Thanks for the feedback. It is very interesting to me. I think I will have to go back and make some changes in our reward levels. Thanks for the help!


Thanael wrote:
Thanael wrote:
So the World Eater was it imprisoned in a certain prime world by the combined pantheon? Is one of its heralds the Tarrasque? Is Clinton Boomer in on the project? Did you guys read his tumbler?
I notice that this got ignored. Simple question: is Boomer in?

I have talked to Boomer about this, but since he has a newborn he could only give me a "maybe". Having had a newborn I understand the "maybe". So keep your fingers crossed.

RonarsCorruption wrote:
Regarding printing, people seem to be confused. As I understand it the kickstarter will be primarily to get the content produced as a PDF - with some limited rewards offering limited edition print copies. Then, afterwards when the entire project is done, there will be effort putting it into making a printed copy available.

That is correct. We WILL be doing a printed version most likely in black & white and "possibly" in full color.


Interjection Games wrote:
Also, that's just a book pushing AGILE methodologies. It's trendy, sure, but it's not like it's new. There was something much like it before Waterfall, and something much like Waterfall will replace AGILE once early adopters get sick and tired of buying junk. It's just a big, senseless pendulum, and there ain't any reason to spend money on it.

What is funny is the book was written 15 years ago by Guy Kawasaki who handled the marketing for Apple from 1983. He's been a head of the curve for a while. But to each his own.


Steve Geddes wrote:
I thought it was going to be available after the kickstarter? Rarity and print on demand aren't really compatible concepts - if you want a limited edition, quality is important (and POD is improving, but still not there).

Yes, most likely, but I don't know what they final cost will be. But it may not happen due to the cost. So if you want the hard cover, then you are going to have to sing up for it but you might NOT get it.


Interjection Games wrote:
Rusty Ironpants wrote:

LPJ being advised on transparency, heh. I didn't see that one coming!

You guys should check out the 80+ Transparency Agenda videos on his Google+ page

Louis, you should do your next video on this project.

-shrugs-

I quite literally don't pay attention to anything my competitors are working on. To that end, I don't know anyone's methods, either.

I will suggest for you: Rules for Revolutionaries. Once you read this book you will understand WHY you should watching AND understanding your competitors. Hope you check it out.


Steve Geddes wrote:

I think I didn't explain myself well. I realise printing is expensive, but why limit it to 15 hardcovers? Sure an extra ten hardcovers is an extra $463+ in printing costs - but you'd be selling the pledges for far more than that, so you'd make more profit (or have more to cover other costs). I'm imagining a "hardcover only" pledge for $100-$150 plus postage.

One of the big benefits of the kickstarter model is that you can offer super expensive pledge levels to subsidise the lower levels without having to commit to the production costs before knowing the demand.

For me it is the nature of exclusivity. I want it to be rare. I want people to make a decision of choosing one over the other and realize if they want it, that will not have forever to get it. This book will be so rare, I as the publisher most likely will NOT be getting a copy.


Rednal wrote:
In fairness, sometimes publishers are still putting things together, and literally do not have an answer to give. XD That's why I try to judge things by the final proposal, not any in-progress bits.

Thanks!

Rednal wrote:
At the moment, for example, I'm kind of concerned about having too many sidequests. An earlier post mentioned that the campaign would, effectively, be 8th to 11th for the beginning, 14th to 17th for the end, and presumably sidequests in the middle (12th to 14th). Subject to change, of course.

The mind set we have it that each main adventure you should be able to go up to 3 levels while playing them. With the side track you should need to play 3 to 4 of them to go up one level. This is our working theory, but as always nothing is set in stone.

Rednal wrote:
So... As I understand it, we would have roughly 24 adventures covering 3 levels. Given the suggested length of the book, that sounds like a lot of content with very little advancement (if it's all meant to be played), or a lot of content that the average gaming group might not actually play (which, at first glance, does not sound like a good way to make a product).

Here is the break down of how we see the adventure playing out we we reach each and every goal:

Prologue adventure, then Alpha Adventure, then 12 side treks, then Midway adventure, then 12 more side trek adventures and finally the Omega adventure.

Rednal wrote:
These issues are sufficiently important to me that I suspect I'm missing something very noteworthy and/or obvious here. XD At the moment, I am uncertain and have not formed an opinion... nor will I until I see the full, official pitch for this project, at which point I'm sure my concerns will be properly alleviated. ^^

Right now we are working on getting the right writers on this project and the basic skeleton outline. Once this is complete we will be able to reveal more of out plans and better still which 3PP have signed on to work with us.

Evil Midnight Lurker wrote:
So... only fifteen people get hardcovers? No way to just get hardcover and PDF without all the bonus design-a-something?

After the kickstarter, Yes. But during the kick starter, No. What they final cost will be is currently unknown, but at a minimum I will say it will me more that $90.

Steve Geddes wrote:
I have a few comments:

I have a few answers.

Steve Geddes wrote:
1. These prices look cheap to me (but RPG books are always underpriced, in my opinion, so take that with a grain of salt).

On of the biggest drains of a kickstarter cash flow is Printing AND Shipping. If you can remove those two aspect you can keep the cost of a kickstarter to very minimal levels. Hence the $20 is SO attractive.

Steve Geddes wrote:
2. It seems odd to offer only a few hardcovers and a few color softcovers. Why not provide two unlimited option for 'just the book'? (One hardcover, one color softcover). I dont know how unit-pricing works with print-on-demand but it can't make things more expensive, can it?

Actually the cost to print a 400 page full color hard cover books as a print on demand (POD) is $46.30 thru DriveThruRPG.com. And that is JUST the printing cost. I have not included writing, editing, artwork, layout and shipping in that cost. Just a printed book with blank pages at that cost. That is why we are limiting the book printing at that level.

Steve Geddes wrote:
3. It seems to me that "you can contribute material" pledges are quite popular in RPG kickstarters, but their existence is a negative to me. In my opinion they increase the risk to timely delivery. More controversially, I think they increase the risk of poor quality - I think that is necessarily the case when you invite amateurs to participate, no matter how many anecdotally good amateurs one can point to.

The major thing to that is to make sure it is something new and beginner writers can handle like a feat or spells. There are normally 300 words each and giving them 2 weeks to work on them is normally more than enough. We have TONS of writers and editors who help turn the beginners rough ideas into quality work. That is what we pay the professional for.

Steve Geddes wrote:
4. I think you could probably harness the retailers better by including them as bulk-preorders (and requiring "proof" of operating as a store). I think a significant factor in successful kickstarters is seeing an ever climbing, large-relative-to-goal pledge amount. Granted I'm ignorant of the behind-the-scenes stuff but I dont understand what's gained by excluding those sales in the kickstarter total.

Tell you the truth most retail stores are not fans of kickstarter. You can Google the words Game Retailer, Kickstarter and issues and read TONS of articles about retailers and their feelings. And just to let you know it will be nasty on both sides of the argument. I just like to offer them for my kickstarters, but honest we normally only get 10 retailers that sign up for these rewards.

Steve Geddes wrote:
5. This is more a proofreading thing, but the higher pledges dont include the stretch goals reached which is presumably just an accidental omission.

Yes you are correct. :-)


Rednal wrote:
See? THAT'S the kind of information that helps. XD And also why I said "at the moment"... though I'm curious as to whether or not most people would want to play most/all of those side-treks before moving on to the climax. I'm not entirely sure how tightly they'll be integrated into the main plot, though 24 high-quality standalone adventures - which I could probably run by themselves - might be pretty darn worthwhile to get in their own right. XD

We are really trying to do this right on every level and we are signing up people to help make this a possibility.

Rednal wrote:
(Remember, we don't know all of your ideas for this! ^^ I'm basing my opinions off of what limited info I have from this thread - and those opinions can, and generally will, change as new information is handed out.)

This is the real issue being a gaming developer and publisher, "How much info do you leak out?" I know what you to know EVERYTHING we are planning but we do need to put out more info to the fans out there.


bookrat wrote:
What if I want a color soft cover without anything else?

We are not offering it as a reward. I would rather you get more and not need it.

bookrat wrote:

Is this an error? It reads PDFs, not softcover.

* You definitely need some pledge tiers between $20 and $75...

The $75 is softcover AND PDF. For right now, that is how it is. We might have some other rewards but noticing other kickstarters like Legendary Games did $40 to $100 range and I didn't really see people not support it. But if we find something that we can like to fit in there we will.

Rednal wrote:

*Glances in*

As a personal note, uh, I probably wouldn't refer to two books, plus sidequests, as an 'Adventure Path'. At the moment, this sounds closer to being an "Extended Two-part Adventure", especially if you're not starting at Level 1 or 2 and going all the way up.

Based on the number we are looking at there will be THREE main adventure (The third one will be a midpoint adventure) plus 24 Sidetrek adventures that will be roughly 400+ pages in length. While you might not start at first level I think you will have A LOT OF FUN playing it all the way thru (if we reach all our goals).

Rednal wrote:
Agreed. This sounds more like a marketing stunt than an actual Adventure Path.

Potentially 400+ pages and you don't think it is an adventure path? A typical AP is about 240 pages and we are looking to blow that page number out of the water teaming up with as many of the most influential 3PPs we can. When this starts we are going to redefine the term "Adventure Path" means.


While looking a few rewards from other kickstarters, I have come up with these rewards. Please feel free to comment on what you like and don't like. Thanks!

$1 - Back for a Buck (B4$): Thank You. Your name listed as a donor, our eternal gratitude, and lots of good karma!

$2 - Retailer Level: Funding at this level gives retailers the opportunity to purchase printed copies for their retail locations. These copies will be shipped in the US via Media Mail only. Qualified retailers, libraries or distributors only. Contact LPJ Design (LMPjr007 at Gmail.com) to confirm before pledging. This pledge is the only way for retailers, libraries or distributors to get the product, which WILL NOT otherwise be offered through distribution

$20 - Digital Only: You get the all the Crisis of the World Eater adventures and side treks in PDFs. This will also include all the stretch goals that are reached.

$75 - Black & White Soft Cover Printed: You get the all the Crisis of the World Eater adventures and side treks in PDFs. This will also include all the stretch goals that are reached.

$150 - Full Color Soft Cover Printed. Your image as the basis of a headshot that will appear in the Crisis of the World Eater book OR future LPJ Design release. Limit 35 people

$250 - Full Color Hard Cover Printed. Your image as the basis of a headshot that will appear in the Crisis of the World Eater book OR future LPJ Design release. You will be able to pitch your ideas for future 3PP original content over Skype and you'll join the ranks of fully credited designers in the Crisis of the World Eater book. Also you will to submit up to three (3) feats, three (3) spells, three (3) magic items and / or three (3) monsters (subject to design review, see FAQ) for future 3PP release. Limit 15 people


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Four Dollar Dungeons wrote:

Consider me informed :-)

Were you expecting those of us to whom you haven't spoken so far to pitch in ideas or proposals or something?

Richard

Right now we are working on the outline so we can place people in the right areas of work. I am hoping that we can get more 3PP in line once the outline is done. For now just follow this thread and keep checking online at our Facebook page for updated. Thanks!


Gerald wrote:
If there is no print option, I will probably sit the kickstarter out. I'm old school...I want a book in my hand.

There will be a print / POD version available, but most likely not during the kickstarter.


Prime Evil wrote:
This is a bold move, but hard to pull off successfully. But if you can do it, it would be incredible.

That is why we are going for it.

Prime Evil wrote:
One danger here is that players used to endless reboots of media properties (*cough* Secret Wars *cough*) might respond with a yawn rather than a sense of awe. Perhaps a nasty GM should spring this AP on their group as a complete surprise for maximum effect, giving them no advance warning of what they are getting into?

Maybe we have something like that planned. Maybe in one adventure someone (or two) might need to be sacrifice to save a world. Better still, what if the sacrifice does nothing to stop the destruction of that world?

Prime Evil wrote:
I'd also worry that once you've destroyed your first universe,it's hard to top that. How do you up the ante and build towards a climax? Also, how do you give players a sense that their character's actions can be meaningful when cosmic events are happening around them?

The easy way it to make it THEIR home world that has been destroyed. Some people might take that personal. But don't worry about, if the destroy a world / universe / dimension, the better question are WHAT are the repercussions of that happening? There might be some deities and god like entities who might want to have a talk with you after killing millions of their followers.

Prime Evil wrote:
When you pitch it that way, it's a good approach. Give folks an easy entry point to check things out...

Thanks!

Prime Evil wrote:
Will different publishers contribute their own side treks?

YES!!!!! When have been talking to 3PP about doing something like this for over a year, so many of the more well know 3PP have sided on to assisting with this kickstarter.

Prime Evil wrote:
Awesome. And it would be great if whatever is redacted sets up a cool reason for future linkages between the different 3PP settings (or even homebrew settings) to be retconned as desired. This would not only allow PCs to move from one setting to another, it would also give the GM a convenient in-game excuse to introduce things they really like from one setting (spells, magic items, etc) in another.

Once you learn what [REDACTED] is you will think that [REDACTED] and the 3PP set it up to do it that way from when [REDACTED] did in the [REDACTED] AP.

Prime Evil wrote:
The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of a shared multiverse that any publisher can contribute to. Keep it vaguely compatible with the official multiverse that Paizo inherited from 3.5 and it might be very popular.

People will have an opportunity to team up and work together and in the long term that is good for everyone.

Prime Evil wrote:
Do you have any idea when you'd think about Kickstarting this?

First Quarter 2016

Prime Evil wrote:
I'm presuming that if you are discussing this publicly, you've already progressed beyond the vague concept stage and are trying to gauge the level of interest before taking the next step?

We are using this time to inform other 3PP and fans of 3PP what we are doing and how we can make this on of the most influential and successful kickstarters of 2016. Plus a $10 PDF reward level where you get all the threshold goals from numerous 3PP is pretty awesome.


Just wondering, I am thinking of NOT having a print / POD version offered with the kickstarter. There will be a print version but AFTER we release the PDF version. What issues (if any) would you have with that? Please let me know. Thanks!


Prime Evil wrote:
It's an intriguing concept for an AP and one that hasn't been tried before.

Thanks!

Prime Evil wrote:
I like the idea that it will have an epic scale - it helps to highlight that it isn't just a "threat of the week" storyline. It feels like you really want to crank the dial up to 11.

Just to let you know we WILL be destroying a few campaign setting in this AP. Yep we ARE blowing up planets with all the repressions of that.

Prime Evil wrote:
There are a couple of obvious dangers. The first is that there won't be enough space to show off the unique features of each campaign setting. Depending upon how big this adventure Path will be, publishers may not have enough space to let their creations "breathe" properly.

The reason for the side trek is to give you a "taste" of the setting to see if you are interested.

Prime Evil wrote:
The second is that tastes vary and some players may *gasp* find some publisher's settings more aligned to their own personal tastes than others. I don't know that there's much that you can do about this issue - it's just human nature.

That is the hope. :-)

Prime Evil wrote:
And the third risk is an issue that plagues many of the big comic crossover events - there are simply so many moving parts that it becomes hard for people who aren't already familiar with the existing source material to keep track of what is going on and how it should be placed in a meaningful context.

I think we have found a go way to handle that with the use of the side treks in this.

Prime Evil wrote:
On the other hand, this has the potential to set up a coherent shared multiverse paving the way for occasional future crossovers. And that is a very good thing - I loved the idea back in the AD&D 2E era that all of the campaign worlds published in that period existed in a single multiverse.

That is our LOG TERM plan that all the 3PP are interconnected due to [REDACTED].

Prime Evil wrote:
Also, It would be fantastic if you could do this in a way that encourages GMs who have their own established homebrew campaign settings to incorporate them into the shared multiverse. If done right, this would increase the value of 3PP material to those GMs. Although they might spend most of their time own home turf, an occasional jaunt to another setting might be good thing to freshen up their game.

Stop looking at my computer.


Rusty Ironpants wrote:

What is the level range on this?

If the level range is large, I am curious how the challenge level in the sidetreks will be scaled so that they can be played in any order.

We have not finalized that due to [REDACTED] but we are looking at the Alpha adventure to run most likely 8th to 11th and the Omega adventure to run 14th to 17th. But none of this is solid it stone because of [REDACTED].


Oliver Volland wrote:

Another review:

Treasures of NeoExodus: Infinite Fury by Louis Porter Jr. Design

Have fun!

Thanks for the review.


bookrat wrote:
The only thing that would worry me is this: If I want to play a certain side trek, would I have to purchase outside material to be able to play it?

At least on the AP side we are trying to keep the entry level as low as $10 so cost might not be an issue on that side.

bookrat wrote:

If the minimum material *required* to play the side trek was contained in the AP or at least available in one of the SRD's, I could then use the side trek as a good trial run to see if I'd want to then purchase more materials from that particular publisher.

If I am going to end up spending $50-100 on an AP (guessing based on price of current Paizo APs), I don't want to have to spend another $50-100 just to be able to play all the content I've already paid for.

Since the side trek will be handled by the 3PP specifically I am sure some will have "custom" material in it. We are planning is if there is custom material that it's rules will be included in the side trek, in a stripped down format at least.


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AinvarG wrote:
OK, my level of "how intrigued am I" has been raised quite a bit. Thanks for the reply.

Wait until you see who is involved and what we are planning. We want this to feel familiar in some points and very different almost alien in other points.

TheAntiElite wrote:
I'm not going to lie, I would be all over that. Especially if powerset/theme bleed over happens. I know Cerulean Seas has psionics, and if some Kaiden characters teamed up with the Oriental analogs from Cerulean Seas, while some Akashic types got in on the action...

And that is what we want. A complete mixing of all kinds of 3PP things but still at the core of it being a Pathfinder adventure.

DragoDorn wrote:
How similar will the side trek quests be to what the Legendary Planet Adventure Path is doing?

First off, This AP side treks are much shorter than the traditional adventure length (our side treks will be 6 to 8 page in length compared to a 32 page full adventure.).Secondly, you can play the side treks in ANY order. You can also play all the side treks, some of the side treks, or none of them at all. It is completely up to you. Don't like a certain campaign setting or world in this AP, then don't play their side trek. Everything is up to you.


AinvarG wrote:
It sounds like the challenge for me in using such a product is having all of the necessary rules and world info available. I don't have a particularly broad 3pp library at this point - it's pretty deep with a handful of publishers, but I don't even recognize some of the worlds that were mentioned above.

This AP setup is based off of new adventure line system we created. Unlike an Adventure path, which contains a number of adventures the PCs must play in order, this AP contains two adventures, which must be played in a specific order (alpha, and then omega) and a number of side quests, which may be played in any order, so long as they are played after adventure alpha, and before adventure omega. So you can pick and choose what side trek (which the 3PP will be focused on) in your home campaign.

AinvarG wrote:
That would not stop me from backing the kickstarter; that would turn on other factors better expressed earlier in this thread. It would just affect whether I would get anything out of it in the end and might affect potential future customers' interest in the AP - all depending on how that information - and how much of it - was presented in the AP directly.

That is reasonable.

AinvarG wrote:
Just thinking an AP that says, "Best experienced if you have the following fifty books available to you," might be harder to sell. Nothing that could not be addressed during the design of the AP, of course. Like: We provide everything you need, but also include references to rulebooks that have more detail if you wish to delve further. The old Dungeon magazine made an effort to do that when they were teasing you to pick up new rules - which is ultimately what this is all about, right? Drum up interest in 3pp products?

The main Alpha and omega adventures will focused on the main core rulebook, while the side treks might trail into specific game setting campaign worlds so there might be something extra needed. But for anything like that we will inform those playing those side treks.


Steve Geddes wrote:
I was wondering about mythic, rather than psychic (though I'm glad you don't feel the need to choose between psychic and psionic).

Yes we will will be doing some mythic in the adventures.


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Steve Geddes wrote:
Is the plan for it to use mythic rules? (It sounds mythic in scope, to me).

We plan to use ALL the rules from all the setting / campaigns that make them unique and interesting. So you can expect to see BOTH psychic magic and psionics. I want us to be inclusive for 3PP.


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necromental wrote:
While I'm interested in this AP, I have one problem with supporting a kickstarter of a such a product, and that's money. I cannot afford the Legendary Planet as a kickstarter and I still didn't manage to get one from Frog God Games. I understand the necessity of running a kickstarter as opposed to just publishing it, but rarely I can cough up the sum required at once (I admit, international shipping is very much a problem for me), like I managed for Kobold's Southlands, or AAW's Snow White. It doesn't mean I won't pick it up when it's eventually published, but many kickstarters come at a wrong time (for instance I had to back out of Barakus 'cause I crashed my car).

Funny you should say that, the plan for pricing was going to be $10 gets you ALL the PDFs from the series (minimum of 2 main adventures and 2 side trek) and all the threshold goals in PDF. The majority of the threshold goals will be side trek adventures from 3PP. We based doing this on the Fate Core Kickstarter. The reason being is that we wanted people to get more than what you would reasonably expect. Plus who could say to a $10 kickstarter?

VM mercenario wrote:
So dimension hopping from NeoExodus, to Thunderscape, to Kaidan, to Midgard, to Cerulean Seas, to Necropunk type of stuff? Could probably be made with all NPCs and sample characters from several 3pp classes and not a single Paizo PF class too.

Yes this is exactly what we want to do.

VM mercenario wrote:
Yes. That would be awesome. You should have started with that, everybody who supports 3pp will probably support that, it's awesome. It also shows a little from different publishers so you can get a taste of everything, show a highlight from each world and why they would be fun to play, just enough rules on the stat blocks to be playable while making you want to go and buy the class and see what else it can do, it would be great publicity for all involved.

Talk about cross promotion.

VM mercenario wrote:
I think I just had a nerdgasm.

You're welcome.


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Rednal wrote:
So... ultimately, would I support a joint 3PP campaign? The answer, of course, is "it depends". If it meets enough of my personal criteria, I probably will support it. Otherwise... *Shrugs*
CalethosVB wrote:
To be fair, we're still in the dark about the anticipated size and scope of this project. All we've heard so far is it's got a bunch of bigger 3pp names.

OK since you all have given such great feedback, here is the concept pitch for this 3PP AP, which we are calling Crisis of the World Eater.

(Begin marketing pitch mode)

A god like creature called the World Eater has been consuming worlds after worlds. The World Eater simply devours all life and energy from each and every thing on each and every world it visits. Nothing survives the World Eater and it leaves a world a carcass where nothing again can live on it.The World Eater has been annihilating worlds for over a millennium, with many attempting to stop the advancement. No matter how powerful, no matter how advanced each and every world that stood again the World Eater failed. Nothing has slowed or prevented the consumption of world after world.

Now the World Eater has sent it's executor to your world to evaluate it for it consumption. And like so many worlds before, if the World Eater succeeds, it will leave your world a dead husk. What will you do to stop the World Eater when so many before couldn't? Where will you gain allies for the impossible task? Where will you be taken in finding ways to stop the World Eater? What will you sacrifice to defeat the Wold Eater?

(End marketing pitch mode)

Basically it is Crisis on Infinite Earth PLUS Ultimate Galactuc Trilogy equals Crisis of the World Eater. So if those series interest you, then you should like the idea of this AP concept.


Personally, I am glad for any and all feedback I get on this thread. It is important to hear and learn about everyone's issues that have with and AP of this size and ambitions.


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BigDTBone wrote:
If you don't see backlash about Paizo's balance and quality issues, it is because you aren't paying very close attention.

LOL! No, I have seen the "backlash" but normally you don't see it in sales. It reminds me of Games Workshop fans who complain about them then buy two copies of an item.

Shem wrote:
This is a strange thread. You asked for people's opinions on the idea of a 3PP Kickstarter, and when they give you their opinion you seem to argue about their stance. I thought you were just looking for information not trying to change their ideas about 3PP kickstarters.

My thought is "where is the line where people say no 3PP?" Richard Pett has written for Paizo, Kobold Press and my company LPJ Design. I am assuming the quality level between the three are "close" but there are people who are like "no 3PP because of balance". For me that phrase is "muddy". I don't want to change someones mind BUT I want to understand what lead them to the "No".

Skylancer4 wrote:
I'm not asking this to be a jerk, and I'm sure the OP would probably like to know the answer too. It just seems to me, that trying it to make the AP capable of fitting Golorian, defeats the purpose of having 3PP collaboration in making it and imposes undue constraints on the creativity that the 3PP has to make the product unique.

That is exactly how I feel. Golorian to me is "generic fantasy" while most 3PP is "niche fantasy". Do people really want more generic fantasy, or are they looking for something a little different and unique that they can add to their home game? Plus, I think that like with most things, people who are 3PP fans take bits and pieces from several 3PP sources to add to their home setting as needed.


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Urath DM wrote:

Throwing a bunch of names in the pot can't be the sole draw.

Much of the bad rap for 3pp publishers, I think, comes from differing sense of balance. Each publisher has its own sense of what is "balanced"... when people really like a 3pp, it is largely because that publisher's sense of balance matches that of the reader.

Since each is different, an AP based on each 3pp providing one volume, for example, is a nearly sure-fire way to create a giant failure.

So it comes down to the plan more than the participants. A bad plan with great participants will fail; a great plan will help even poor participants fare better.

So what makes for a great plan? Well, as others (such as OceanshieldWolf) have mentioned, it includes playing to each participant's strengths. I also think having a single Developer responsible for ALL volumes of the AP is key.. to achieving consistency throughout.

I think it is interesting that a few of you seem to think 3PP can't handle consistency or balance when so many of the 3PP freelancers and publishers are the same people who do Paizo products as freelancers. Let's be real, Paizo has had balance problems too, but I don't see the same backlash as with 3PP. Paizo at its core is that it is also a 3PP or the OGL. I know when I pitched 3PP and people what I was planning many were very interested in the concept and better still it gave a chance to showcase their campaign setting and specialties in game design.

I just feel bad when I hear that 3PP who have been given 5-star reviews with seal of approval from Endzeitgeist are "not professional" or "have balance issues". It does not make sense, at least to me. 3PP has evolved from the days of 3.5 OGL and kickstarter has proven that (good and bad). If someone offer you a AP done by 3PP on a theme/idea you found interesting, why wouldn't you offer to support them for $20 for the PDFs?


Shem wrote:
I might buy it after the fact, depends on a lot. After the Fire Mountain Games fiasco I am not as hot on the idea of supporting 3PP who I have not supported on Kickstarter before.

I like you supported that kickstarter and I am still waiting. While this has been a fiasco and I understand things life can happen to really effect your kickstarter.

Shem wrote:
One thing I like of Frog God Games is that most of the writing is usually done when they do a Kickstarter. They do it to cover the cost of developing and printing the book, and not to handle the whole project.

Frog God has seemed to take a very Patron business model, which they proved the quality of their products back in the 3.5 days.

Shem wrote:
I have been happy with what I have supported with Legendary Games and will likely support their current Kickstarter. And of course I have supported all the Kobold Games Kickstarters.

Based on your statement before, Legendary Games falls under "I am not as hot on the idea of supporting 3PP who I have not supported on Kickstarter before." There are a lot of 3PP guys who do GREAT work but they are not one of the bigger names. People seem afraid to give "new" 3PP a chance because they are afraid they will get something bad.

Shem wrote:
I have also supported AAW and am happy with what I have gotten from them.

AAW really has the kickstarter model down pat because they do great work.

Shem wrote:
I am not as interesting in supporting a kickstarter for companies I do not have as much Kickstarter history with.

To me the way to mitigate that issue might be support it at a lower finical level. What do you feel about that?


Thanael wrote:
W hat AP would you like next? thread for reference...

What we have planned if done correctly will be talked about for a while AND help not as well known 3PP gather more fans. Our main focus if to create a more unified connection between the 3PP and build something player have dreamed about playing in without even realizing it. But as always, first things first.


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Steve Geddes wrote:
For me, at least, that's totally backwards. I'm not going to back a project like that just based on the publishers.

People say that but I have noticed that there are a lot of small and first time 3PP who never get promoted or funded even with good ideas or concepts. Take a look here at winner and losers. It does make it "easier" if you have known people working on your KS. I mean if John Smith and Owen KC Stephens were doing KS adventure series, I think Owen might get more of a look from you if all other things are equal.

AinvarG wrote:
+1 (and emphasis mine)

I understand.

Blacksheep wrote:
I don't really care where content comes from if it looks interesting. A 3pp known to be reliable and consistent in their deliverables is obviously a major plus. Cool unlocking content that won't be made available later also usually tempts me to back a KS.

Plus I think the more well established 3PP can get well known friends to work on project. I have hit up Owen and the guys at Dreamscarred MANY times for KS threshold goals.

Blacksheep wrote:
There's so much good 3pp out there right now I have no reservations about the approach.

All 3PP like to hear that. :-)


OK let's expand this initial question a bit: What 3PP would need to be in a AP to get you interested in it (AP specific details still unknown)?


Jason Nelson wrote:
I think big names aren't inherently a problem; the problem is more with big names for the sake of big names.

Agreed

Jason Nelson wrote:
If you've got people with a great track record of success in the industry AND who are excited about the theme and dialed into making that theme awesome, then it can be great.

That is really why projects are GREAT. The passion of the people involved. We have all done something that we were not really excited about and we "farmed" it in. But on the things we LOVE, well that has a completely different feel and expectation.

Jason Nelson wrote:
The key is always to find talented people and to match them with products they're passionate about doing in areas that match their unique talents. That's how you make awesome products.

For example, I can't wait to see Pathfinder Modern come out and what cool products Owen KC Stephens is going to come up with. Owen, like me, is a HUGE modern genre fan.

Jason Nelson wrote:
The story and theme have to come first, because you have to know what you're going to do before you start trying to find the right people to do it.

Bingo! I think the real issue is people might read the marketing material on a product and assume the know what a product or adventure might be. What make a good story? Well you have to actually read it before knowing, and there are many who don't do that. How many time have you heard, "Oh so and so did it? Well then is can't be any good." Prejudge much?

Gerald wrote:
I'd probably back it, assuming it was from a reputable group of 3PP, which in my experience is definitely most of them.

That is always good to hear.

Thanael wrote:
Adaptability to Golarion is a big plus IMHO. (See WotW as prequel to the rise of house Cheliax).

Just wondering but would you want different and unique themes from 3PP? To me I think Paizo covers the "generic fantasy" ground very well and I don't think it is a good thing to 3PP to do the same thing. 3PP need to fill the niches and push the boundaries of what is fantasy.


Jason Nelson wrote:
FWIW, a typical Paizo AP adventure generally runs 30-35,000 words.

Thanks for that info.

Jason Nelson wrote:
As to Louis' question, it's one that has come up before, and it is a project that is fraught with complications, but the Mythic Mania project we ran with Dreamscarred, Kobold, and Rogue Genius certainly showed that you can have a very successful 3PP crossover project.

As I told you that idea Jason (Secret 3PP meeting), I think it is possible with LOTS of planning and outlining.

Endzeitgeist wrote:
Just to reiterate and since Jason has chimed in - LG's short adventure plug-ins à la Under Frozen Stars are short, but don't *feel* that way - they have all the details, the fluff etc. required to make them great.

I have always bee of the mind set that a typical adventure in a AP has 9 encounters (combat or social). I think it would work better and move faster if a "typical" adventure had 5 encounters; side treks had 2 encounters and you would mix ups typical adventures and side treks to make your Adventure Path.

Endzeitgeist wrote:
I'm just wary of short modules because they often skimp on the details.

I think if you do side trek as "single issue" stories in comic book terms, you can build a a rich story AP with the combinations typical adventures (aka 4 part storylines in comics) and side treks.

Endzeitgeist wrote:
Other than that, I really love the idea of proper 3pp-APs - as much as I love Paizo's campaigns, I tend to enjoy something different once in a while. ;)

Personally doing something like this is a gateway to get 3PP a lot of exposure that they might not get on there own. Better still find new and interesting ways for people to team up with to do future projects. There is strength in numbers.


Endzeitgeist wrote:
Yes, definitely. One caveat: If the adventures are not short modules, but "proper" length. Some short modules offer plenty of material (e.g. AAW Games' Winterflower), but these days, I've had 3 (!!!) short modules in one epic-length session (12 hours) - build-up and denouement took longer than playing the modules. A module should at least take 6-8 hours to complete.

OK what type of word length is a "proper" adventure?


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Real simple question: Would you support a joint 3PP Adventure Path on Kickstarter? As for 3PP we are talking all the top people and companies? Thanks!


Isuru wrote:
Broke 13K, you can bring out the taskmaster whip for Marc Radle now.

I know. I can't wait to see what is dreamed up. :-)

Isuru wrote:
A bit under $900 until full page art for chapter opener. This would be a killer upgrade, 'cause LPJ Designs and art, you know.

Less than $500 now. We will make this. We. Will. Make. This.


Less than 18 Hours and we need to reach $18K!!!

Just a little under $300 dollars away from our next threshold goal but we sill are trying to reach $18K!! The Psionics books is so close we can taste it. So if you can donate anything, even as little as a buck, we will be grateful and thankful. As always, thank you for your support!


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Less than 30 Hours and we reached $12K!!! Next $13K!!!

We reached $12K and with that, Mythic rules for the NeoExodus Campaign setting. This one was one of those that we really wanted to get to. Mythic Pathfinder has created a very vocal and excited fanbase and we just wanted to add more excitement to them. Alex Augunas is the perfect person to handle incorporating the Mythic rules in NeoExodus. I can not wait to see the final version. So next up at $13K is the iconic White Necromancer written by the one and only Marc Radle. Just a little over $700 dollars away it look like this could be happening sooner that you think. So if you can donate anything, even as little as a buck, we will be grateful and thankful. As always, thank you for your support!


Less than $800 until we reach Alex Augunas and Mythic NeoExodus: A House Divided. We know there are fans of Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Mythic rules out there we want to make sure you do miss out!


Less than $1,300 until we reach Alex Augunas and Mythic NeoExodus: A House Divided. We know there are fans of Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Mythic rules out there we want to make sure you do miss out!


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$10,000 reached! 1,000% of Kickstarter goal reached!


Over 900% of Kickstarter goal reached!

And boom goes the dynamite, and another threshold goal goes down. Less that $900 until the next threshold goal and with that we add custom icons and crest for the NeoExodus campaign setting empires and various powerful and influential organizations. After we reach that goal we go for the $12K threshold goal of NeoExodus Mythic PDF chapter written by Alex Augunas. With all these rewards you can see, nothing about this setting is typical and I never wanted it to be. As always, thank you again for all your support. Only 5 days left, what wonders can we make happen.


5 days left for this kickstarter!


Louis Porter Jr. Design is looking for a freelance CARTOGRAPHER for two (2) half page maps.

Project Length: Two (2) full color half page maps for an adventure
Pay Rate: $75 Paid IMMEDIATELY to artist's verifiable Paypal account upon acceptance of finished artwork.
Additional details: These maps will be used for the upcoming Chronicles of Gatekeeper - Alpha: To Save A Soul.
Respond by: July 10, 2015.
Contact: LMPjr007 at Gmail.com

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