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Amin Jalento

Kyremi's page

79 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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Recently our local roleplaying society had a 24-hour event over a weekend... the game I played in was split between 12 hours of a 20th-level 'group' (I say group; we didn't work together, we just happened to be in the same country at the same time) of evil players, and 12 subsequent hours of a heroic 17th-level party trying to undo the damage. Creating the characters was pretty hilarious... if your game is not that serious you could try something like my L20 dwarf antipaladin who conjured sweet baked goods to use as grenades under the alchemist bomb rules... apple pies of 10d6 damage are great against clerics :P

More than that, being able to use all the abilities was pretty awesome; I think I calculated that if this antipaladin had Smited a good outsider while channeling negative energy through his +5 conductive keen hasted greatsword, he could do 1500 damage per round max... without even critting. If you've never played L20 before (which I hadn't) it's insanely fun just to see the size of the stats you get...O.o

(Of course, my L17 good character was a human paladin who conjured savoury baked goods, especially explosive sausage rolls :P)


The maniacal Congressman was shushed, because he sexily massaged his sycophantic pet tigers...

(I can see why he'd be shushed for that, tbh :P)


The maniacal mime was shushed, while sexily massaging his sycophantic pet tigers.


The enthusiastic mime was shushed, while sexily massaging his similar pet tigers.


The enthusiastic mime was shushed, while sexily deciphering his fingerprints...


The enthusiastic drunk was arrested, while loudly deciphering his fingerprints...


...Grizzly, that's an awesome post :D I'll just mention that I currently have +11 CMB (so +7 with a trickshot) since my dex is only 17 at this point... something I hope to remedy with a belt of dex very soon.


Granted, except that for the tenth (now ninth) person to post after this post to have an auto-granted wish, nine (now eight) more people must post in this thread, hence you've created a burden of expectation upon nine other people (or at least two other very dedicated people).

I wish Pathfinder integrated the Ars Magica casting system...


So this is a great little game I played... must've been 5 years ago on another forum. Simply, there's a starting sentence, and each subsequent poster changes one word in it, e.g....

Paizo are trying to get more monkeys into small cages

could change to...

The government is trying to get more monkeys into small cages

(little things like are -> is don't count)

So to start the game, use the sentence below...

***The lethargic priest was pre-occupied, while meaningfully decyphering his slippers.***

GO!


loaba wrote:
Kyremi wrote:
Loaba: as a sniper, I agree fully with your assessment, but Rapid Shot's requirements list Point Blank Shot, therefore it's kind of a necessity... since Rapid Shot is pretty damn essential, as far as I know.
My bad, man. As a Ranger, I didn't have to meet the requirements for Rapid Shot. As a Fighter, you do.

Ah yeah, shiny ranger stuff :D And at the end of the day, at some point I'll find myself in a small room where the enemy is well within 30ft and it may be I'll be thanking the gods I took point blank shot :P

YrdBrd, the only thing I'd add to that pile is a pair of Bracers of Archery... seems you have the rest covered, as far as I can tell...


Loaba: as a sniper, I agree fully with your assessment, but Rapid Shot's requirements list Point Blank Shot, therefore it's kind of a necessity... since Rapid Shot is pretty damn essential, as far as I know.


Cheers, Charlie Bell :) Unfortunately, no party bard either, but definitely looking out for belts of dex.

YrdBrd, what kind of role are you seeing for the archer? Long-range stuff, or more up-close-and-personal shooting? If it's up close, take stuff like Snap Shot (at next level, since it needs +6 BAB). Also, why the Iron Will specifically?


magikot wrote:
Just because you don't have a spell caster in your party doesn't mean you can't get command word items that casts Gravity Bow/Abundant Ammo each 5/day. It wouldn't be terribly expensive since they are both first level spells. Find yourself an allied spell caster, or ask your DM if he can put one into a future treasure hoard.

I'd never heard of these command word items before, so that might explain it :P Now that I know of them, they sound fantastic... I'll see if I can get my hands on a few of these...


Grizzly: I do have an efficient quiver which I forgot to mention :P Unfortunately we have no magic casters in our party, so Abundant Ammunition and Gravity Bow are, sadly, not available. I'll look into broadhead arrows since they sound awesome...

As for battlefield control, unfortunately the trick shot is only within 30ft, a range where a sniper is unlikely to find himself :P


@Callarek: In this particular game the DM houseruled that we get stat upgrades every second level, and I put two each into strength and dexterity.

Your feat list is remarkably nearly accurate; you're right that my skill focus was Perception, and most of the feats are correct except for point-blank master, which the archer archetype provides its own version of at 9th level (which is only one higher than I am now). Instead, I have clustered shot.

You're also right that with my full plate I only have a 20ft move speed, but then again, I'm designed to be a long-range stationary 'turret', if you will. Once I've moved (and climbed into a tree/onto a roof/wherever), I'm unlikely to do so again for the rest of the fight.

@bfobar: You and Callarek make a good point about the boots of speed; I'll keep them in mind, since we don't have a wizard casting Haste, unfortunately. I'm definitely on the lookout for a belt of dex now, and having a Speed-ed bow would be terrific, but that seems to be quite dang expensive :P

@Martiln: Yeah, it's not cost-efficient, but it's how it ended up, unfortunately. A higher-plussed bow is certainly on my list.

@Lightbulb: Yeah, I do have all those you mentioned except Improved precise shot, since I'm 3 levels below its prerequisite of BAB +11... sure, once I get enough BAB to get it, I will be.


Cheers for the response :)

Yeah, I agree that I could have a bit more equipment, but what I didn't mention is that I have a set of mithril full-plate armour which gives me *bonuses* to acrobatics and climb, hence I can climb damn near anything with ease, and set myself up in a good spot to snipe for the rest of the fight... this cost a serious amount and left me a bit wanting in terms of cash, hence the not-as-great bow :P However, we've been getting some money, so I might try to do a few upgrades...


So I've got a level 8 fighter of the archer archetype, half-elf. He's meant to function primarily as a spotter and sniper (he has +20 to Perception checks...) with stat line:

Str 16
Dex 17
Con 13
Int 12
Wis 12
Cha 8

He's taken the classic feats (weapon focus, greater weapon focus, weapon spec, point blank, deadly aim, plus others not related to attack/damage), has Bracers of Archery (+2 att/+1 dam), and Expert Archer from the archetype bumps it up another +1/+1. Obviously he has a strength 3 composite longbow of +1... so running through the numbers, without any situational/optional feats a full round attack does +17 => 1d8+8, +12 => 1d8+8.
In an 'ideal' scenario, within 30ft and using deadly aim, rapid shot and manyshot, this becomes... +14 => 1d8+13 and 1d8+13, +14 => 1d8+13, +9 => 1d8+13. Taking 4.5 as a dice average this is 70 damage...

So my question is; does this seem 'good' enough? I've seen some examples of an archer doing +26 to hit at level 10, which I don't see happening for this char anytime soon. Basically, am I missing something obvious to help improve either my attack bonus or damage? Also, changing class (e.g. to zen archer) is not an option for me in my current game...


Thankfully you don't seem to have included the 4e 'power divisions' of at-will, encounter and daily powers i.e. everyone's a wizard. Having DM'ed and played 4e before discovering the relative sanity of PF, this was the most annoying thing about it; no class felt unique when they all had 10-20 powers at lvl13 and each with a variety of effects...

Also, the skills from 4e were silly. At every 2nd level up, ALL skills increasing by 1, purely from the half-level bonus... seems a bit ridiculous to me; yeah, that elven ranger who never went near a city in his life has something like +10 to streetwise. Which means he's more street-savvy than most city-dwelling commoners... sense, it makes none. Plus it meant that at higher levels the party I used to DM never failed a skill check (though that also might've been me setting DCs too low).

Lastly, I'm glad you didn't bring in some of the whackier 4e classes, like the Battlemind. That thing is OP on a silver platter.


5 people marked this as a favorite.

In a campaign, our party of three are discussing some books nicked from the local town's library, and upon learning nothing important was taken, I jovially suggest "oh, just 'how to do flower arranging' books then".

The DM is silent for a second, before replying... "Did you just say 'How to deflower a ranger'? Same as you would any other class, surely!"

The whole table just collapses into laughter. It's probably a 'you had to be there' moment... :P


Hello again...

Yeah, it's over a month since the last post, but in the meantime I've manufactured about 45 of these cards and I wanted to show people what's possible with this template in real life. So, check out these three links...

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/710/img0712a.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/713/img0713k.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/836/img0714ly.jpg/

I bound them together with rubber bands which go through two holes I punched in the top, through the plastic laminate I encased each card in. Doing this manically in one night before a game, it only took 3 hours straight to do 45ish cards...

If anyone else is using these, it'd be good to know :) On the same note, critiques and suggestions are also very welcome and will most likely be incorporated into any later versions of this template.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

My wizard took out a whole bunch of miffed undead with one well-placed fireball spell. Being undead, they all failed the Reflex save and dropped to the ground, burning. Granted, this was an ideal situation, but still a very good demonstration. Besides, Fireball is a classic, it's like a vintage wine from yesteryear; you just can't not choose it.

(Of course, the undead I killed had the last laugh when they managed to band together as a spirit, possess me, and almost made me kill our Paladin. One painful month-long exorcism later, involving Protection from Evil literally being tattooed onto my wizard's body, taught me to think about desecrating unholy places a bit more carefully next time... but hey, due to the spirit I now speak Abyssal and have permanent defenses against Evil.)


Go to YouTube.

Search for "Two Steps from Hell". Choose any song (but especially Protectors of the Earth, Magic of Love, and Heart of Courage)

Listen.

Profit.


This isn't quite the same as what's been described already, but...

I made myself Words of Power cards for each word, and on the back of each card is written the Latin translation of the name of the word, so now when I cast a combined spell, it sounds something like, "Lectus Arcus Impulsae" (for Selected Shock Arc).

My favourite combo would probably be... "Fragor Procresco Incendio Fulmen", translating as Burst Boost Burning Flash.

I also considered translating it to "Sprādziens Pacelta Degoša Uzliesmošana", but that's all-round harder to pronounce in the middle of battle :P (bonus points if anyone recognises the language without using a translation tool)


Sissyl wrote:
Weird is just because you let it be weird. We roleplay to pretend we're someone else and act out stories as that person. While we would not particularly enjoy fighting a red dragon as ourselves, we do enjoy it as another persona. It should not be a no go area with romance to anyone serious about playing their role, I think. Then again, I know most people are not like me in this. Pity really.

Weird more just for the fact that he was a very big, manly guy, and he couldn't act very well, so his imitations of a very small slight woman were both funny and weird at the same time :P


Fromper wrote:

Which actually reminds me of another stupidly obvious and all too common cliche:

Thou shalt not play a character of the opposite gender as an overly flirtateous slut.

Seriously - have you ever seen a guy playing a female character who didn't do this? I've recently made my first female character, who I haven't played yet, and I'm trying to working very hard to come up with a personality for her that's decidedly feminine without being sexual.

I thought it was limited to just that one direction of guys playing female characters badly, but I actually have a female friend who has recently played a male character, and decided to make him gay so she could continue to hit on male NPCs like she would if she was playing a female character. In that case, it's humorous. When guys do it with female characters, it's just a bad cliche.

A few years back, one of my fellow players in a 3rd ed game was playing a female caster... she was the most suggestive and flirtatious character I've encountered. To be fair, this setting involves any male casting characters going insane (Wheel of Time), but still, was a liiitle weird.


Hama wrote:


Thou shalt not whine about "lack of roleplay", when the GM has clearly said that he willst runeth a dungeon crawl.

To be fair, one can roleplay anywhere; it's the difference between a sorcerer saying 'I use magic missile, I roll 6 damage' and 'crouching behind the ruined spokes of the wagon, I ready my last magic missile and, taking careful aim, send a green point of intense light streaking towards the goblin for 6 damage'.


In my first DMing experience, I was running a game for a few of my friends in D&D4e. In general I wasn't harsh enough on them, which I both regret and don't regret, since it made it possible for their characters, and therefore them, to feel epic in sweeping away enemies with ease. Then again, they never really feared combat encounters as they should do, and ended up doing pretty much whatever they wanted. And it's also a flaw with 4E, where it tries to make every character a superhero from level 1.

Currently, I play in two PF games, both of which are pretty damn unforgiving; I like it that way, since needing my wits to stay alive (especially since both my characters are squishy casters) adds a lot to the fun factor.


I'm not sure if Hexes are the same as Spells for a witch, but if they are, you may be interested in my template for spell cards, which are similar to what you've made; they work in MSE and they're bigger, to hold all the spell info... the thread I made for that is here.


There's one in particular which stood out for me in my new group...

"After the DM hath spoken, thou shalt not re-hash what he just said, but slower and more obviously, making every description tediously long."

We should really narrow these down to something like The 10 Gaming Commandments or such...


Sorry for the multiple posts, but I keep fixing things :P

I noticed that some targets were insanely long (see Open-Close, for example), so I modified that field to be bigger, and multi-line, so it can include all the target information. Hence, version 1.2, downloadable here. Enjoy.


I was playing around with the text in the border areas, and the white glow simply doesn't do a good enough job with contrast. So I switched to white text with a black shadow, and I think it looks infinitely better... download the modified template here.

For anyone who has used the black text, let me know if this seems like an improvement.


Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:
Awesome! Can you post a link to download the actual template?

I did, it's found at this link, it should be a zip file with the .mse-installer file plus a few fonts :)


Thanks for the response guys :)

I'm very interested knowing how they come out in print, since I've not been able to try that myself yet. It's possible to print directly from MSE2 but I've not tried this yet... my usual method used to be exporting all the cards as .png pics and printing them individually.

Let me know if there are any design changes I should make to the cards, too.


6 people marked this as a favorite.

Hello to all...

I've seen a lot of threads around here about various solutions for spell cards, but most of them tend to be either flat out boring, or they're too small to fit even most spells on them. Seeing as I recently started a wizard character, I wanted a better way to keep track of spells than 12 pages of print-outs.

My solution is the PF Spell Card Template, designed to be used with Magic Set Editor 2, a program originally meant to create fan-design MTG cards. However, it's capable of making any sort of card, as long as someone's made a template. So, I designed and created a template specifically for PF spells... I posted a few links (one from each school of magic) below.

Elemental Body
Foresight
Ghost Wolf
Hideous Laughter
Interposing Hand
Mind Blank
Permanency
Scintillating Pattern
Temporary Resurrection

A few points... the jagged edges one may notice in the pictures are gone in the template; that was a compression issue. Also, no card would be big enough to carry all the information contained in spells like Detect Magic or Permanency, so in these, it's probably best to just add a bit of the text and then a page reference. Lastly, it's important to note what I'm providing here isn't a finished set of cards; it's a means for anyone to create their own set.

So... to use this, one simply has to download the template file from this link here, while Magic Set Editor 2 can be found at this link here. Once downloaded, simply install MSE2 first, and then unzip the folder containing the template files. In there reside a few fonts which will be necessary, so install those. Then, simply double-clicking the file pfspells.mse-installer should open up a Package Manager (part of MSE2), and you click on each of the three components (opening each drop-down box) and select 'install'... and it should be done.

To use it, start MSE2, select 'New set' and in the new window, under 'Game type', find PFSpells. There's only one style choice for now, so select it and click OK, and it's time to make cards. The process for making a spell card is pretty easy, and I can elaborate in another post if need be, but the one important thing is to click on a bit of the card which isn't in a box to choose the spell school (and therefore the border colours).

Apologies for the massive post... Feel free to critique my design; it's definitely not perfect, I only came up with it a few days ago :P Suggestions for improvement are most welcome and encouraged, since I'd like this to be something anyone would be happy to use. I hope this resource is useful :)


I changed the colours of the schools a bit, generally making them a bit darker and less in-your-face. I also discovered how to add a glow around text so that meant I could do previously-impractically dark borders.

Elemental Body
Foresight
Ghost Wolf
Hideous Laughter
Interposing Hand
Mind Blank
Permanency
Scintillating Pattern
Temporary Resurrection

I included spells like Permanency to give an example of how these cards would deal with absurdly large reams of text; they'd just act like an index, and you'd need the core book to look the spell up.

Richard, by B&W do you mean these cards in greyscale i.e. just printing them without colour? If yes, you could just use the Universal school border, which is a neutral grey. Or do you mean literally no other colours on the card other than black and white?


Richard Leonhart wrote:

there were already a few tries to make spellcards, but those I saw were not very impressing in my opinion, the main problem was that some spell either needed really small fontsize or several cards, sometimes even both. This was probably due to the fact that they wanted cards the size of magic the gathering.

I like your layout but I wonder if you can do every spell in that format.

If you need to make space, the verbal/Somatic place perhaps only needs 1 line and ST/SR are also quite big.

The colours, mainly the red seem very intense, perhaps make it a bit darker of something, also if it isn't too much trouble a black&white stack would be of great use to some (= me).

Anyhow, I really like your size of cards, should be right for 6 per A4 page.

edit: or instead of B&W specific, just choose backgroundcolour that won't become the same as textcolour.

The Component circles need to be as they are, since some spells have combinations like V, S, M/DF, which is why DF is the circle furthest to the right. Plus, some of the component descriptions can get really long.

True, the red is a bit bright, I can tone it down, and a B&W stack is entirely possible, except that means it's much harder to distinguish between spell schools by the colour alone.

For the SR/ST bit; yeah, it's leaving enough room for those exceptional spells with a lot to say.

In general, most spells can fit on these cards and remain readable, however there are some which obviously won't (case in point, Detect Magic). For these I'd guess it's a matter of putting in as much as one wants, and a reference saying 'see pg. X of CRB' or whatever.


Yo guys.
For ages I've been looking around the site and the interwebs as a whole trying to find a better-looking set of cards for the entirety of PF spells, but unfortunately there's nothing out there. So, I took a program I've used before; Magic Set Editor 2, and decided to make a PF spellcard template for it. For those who don't know of MSE2, it's literally a 'make-your-own-card' bit of software, usually used to make Magic: The Gathering cards. It's extremely easy to use with the right templates.

Elemental Body

Hideous Laughter

Interposing Hand

Mind Blank

I only started learning the code for this yesterday, so I've not yet got an installer package for this template, but that should be sorted shortly. I'm also entirely open to any suggestions to improve this, since I want it to be as useful as possible to as many people.

Take a look, leave feedback, enjoy :)

edit: I wasn't sure if this was the right sub-forum for this, if it isn't, please point me to the right one :)


As far as I know, you don't add Target Word and Effect Word levels together to get the spell level; you just take the higher one (this only applies to spells with single Effect Words; multiple Effect Words are covered by the special table). So, you get a standard Fireball with 20' radius at level 3, because Boost Burst is 3rd level, but the cost here is using the Boost meta word, of which you only have X uses per day.

Also, your boosting of the Selected word is awry; it says in Selected that 'This boosted target word increases the level of all the effect words in the spell by 3 levels.'. So, Selected stays as a 0th level Target Word, but Accelerate becomes 5th level (boosting it doesn't raise its level, as in the description, but boosting Selected means Accelerate becomes 5th).

Same applies for Boost Selected Force Bolt, where you get a 0th level Target Word (Boost Selected) plus a 5th level Effect Word (Force Bolt), hence a 5th-level spell overall.

Like many people have said in the testing, the point of WoP isn't to replicate old spells; it's to add versatility and do spells the old system can't even imagine (e.g. multiple damage types in one spell, etc.). But yeah, there are some bits of it which are lacking, mostly just in the variety of words; we need more, but I doubt we'll ever get them.


Thanks for the replies guys :)

Seems this spell is more useful when the save fails rather than when it succeeds, if the target has lots of HP at least... it'd be funny if it beat itself unconscious though.


First off, I agree. Systems have moved away from the gritty realism to an easier experience; especially 4th edition. I DM'ed a group who played that for nearly a year, and there was nothing I could throw at them that would even scratch them; they never considered food or any such necessities, and when they attacked, despite being three completely different classes, it felt exactly the same since they all used one of their many many powers (plus, the battlemind, despite being a tank, outdamaged the two striker party members). Now, obviously some of this is my fault; I should've made the encounters harder. But, some of it is the system's fault; 4E is like WoW on a tabletop. If you're looking for realism in 4E, you won't find it; it's meant to be easily played and understood, with simpler rules and all such things. In order to make 4E 'gritty', you'd have to do major overhauls, at which point you may as well move to PF or 3.5

Regarding PF/3.5 in general, the beauty of these systems is that at the end of the day the rules are just suggestions. A PF SWAT team isn't going to kick in your door and arrest you for debuffing magic classes and making enchanted items as rare as gold dust with a diamond coating. If your setting demands a low-magic, high-risk setting, make those changes. Reduce all the class hit dice by one (or even two?) categories to make hits feel more damaging. Make players keep track of things like torches, and who is holding them, and what happens to them if they get ambushed etc. If a player really really wants a spellcaster, maybe reduce the number of spells known or spells per day (or both) by half. At that rate, low-level casters wouldn't survive much without multiclassing into something like fighter, which I guess is the point of the setting. Want more realism? Implement the called shot, wounds and vigour, and alternate armour systems presented in Ultimate Combat.

Lastly, on style; the flashy-attack problem goes away once you leave 4th ed. PF/3.5 only have the default 'I hit/shoot something' (unless you're a caster) and it's up to the player to describe how and where, and it's better that way. If you're nerfing casters, they'll have to be using martial attacks more often and that will make their spells seem even more special when they do use them.

Short answer; if you don't like something, change it :P


Simple enough question... the spell Terrible Remorse has this description:

"You fill a target with such profound remorse that it begins to harm itself. Each round, the target must save or deal 1d8 points of damage + its Strength modifier to itself using an item held in its hand or with unarmed attacks. If the creature saves, it is instead frozen with sorrow for 1 round, during which time it can take no actions and takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class, after which the spell ends."

It's clear what happens when a creature fails the save; they freeze. However, if they don't save and they have to do the 1d8 + Str damage to themselves, do they then have the rest of the round to do their normal move/standard/swift actions, and the Terrible Remorse thing is just an extra? Or does it replace their standard action?


KaeYoss wrote:

The dwarven fighter/baker isn't flawed. He's Discworld. Makes total sense in Discworld. Dwarven baking isn't for food, it's for combat.

The RAW one is flawed. A much better caption would be "Wizards - 'Awesome' just doesn't cut it when reality is your b*#&#". I mean, it's Harry we're talking about here.

I just found a whole site with RPG-related DeMotivationals

LINK

One of my favourite - not because of the humour part, but because of the pure awesome:

LG

Ah, I wasn't aware of the Discworld connection to the dwarven baker... to be honest I don't think it's a fail concept, stale bread can be really hard, must hurt when you get bread-walloped. Plus it's a great illustration...

I think that site was one of my sources for my collection, it's a good one :D


I'm sure the regular denizens of the intertubes have seen these kind of pics floating around... these are specifically RPG ones though. A few examples of my favourites...

[IMG]http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/4286/roleplaying.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/731/0d0063e18706f5d2edd8406.th.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/5201/fccdwarvenfighterbakerm.th.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/796/minotaurbardcowbellmoti.th.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/5579/motivator8289937.th.jpg[/IMG]

(this'd be better if I could actually embed pics in posts...)

Anyone got similar ones, or like the look of these? I have a large collection, I can upload a few more if people enjoy them...


Tilnar wrote:

They did indeed, back in the day -- though, to be totally fair he wasn't the only example provided and it was meant to show that charisma wasn't related only to looks. (It wasn't anything about *might*, it was that the ugly dude sure could get a crowd to listen to him and agree with him).

They also used Rasputin as an example of Con -- because he was supposedly very rugged and hard to kill -- not because they were encouraging us to bilk the Russian royal family.

In any case, most of this stuff is clearly paranoid and has no basis on reality, but in some cases, at least, it's based on the testimony of "experts" like Patricia Pulling, back in the day -- Here's some fun reading about her, at least.

Wow... even not reading that through in its entirely makes it clear that woman is a bit disturbed. She lost a child, and that's terrible, but she's completely overreacting. And, anyone else seeing the irony of her presenting herself as a 'D&D Expert' when according to her D&D was responsible for her son's death?


Abraham spalding wrote:
Kyremi wrote:

Straight Talk wrote:

Whole long list of an entire 11!! people who've died

Correlation doesn't imply causation. If you look at the number of pirate attacks in the past 20 years, and correlate this with global temperature, you see they both rise. O S#!$, PIRATES CAUSE GLOBAL WARMING!! Another rebuttal; these are 11 examples, from millions of people, plenty of room in millions of people for 11 crazy ones.

hey I got a question -- if 11 people in millions is enough to condemn D&D how many have to die for less than half a million to condemn something? Because I remember this preacher from not so long ago who might be in trouble now.

Actually, the ratios would add up; given a ball-park figure of 4 million D&D players, and 11 of those are enough to condemn it, reducing it to 500,000 means you'd only need 1 and a bit people to condemn this whacko publishing what amounts to a child abuse book as 'parenting advice'.

One could only wish we could do some sort of 'counter-book', distributed to all the nutjobs out there, giving them 'advice' which ended up in... dunno, anything hilarious really. Any ideas?


Straight Talking wrote:
This subject is surprisingly controversial, even among Christians. This astonishes me!
Straight Talking wrote:
In this context, I am amazed at how many so-proclaimed Christians who defend the game, do so with foul and abusive language. This, I think, speaks volumes about the spiritual impact of the game.

Nah, it just shows how isolated you are even amongst those you'd call 'your own'.

Straight Talking wrote:
Some of these books, like TEEN WITCH, are written for young readers. There is even a DUMMIES GUIDE TO WICCA AND WITCHCRAFT!! When D&D started, you could perhaps find four or five books on Wicca in print.

I don't have the stats on this, but I'm pretty sure this goes back to the 'correlation doesn't mean CAUSATION' argument. You could argue that more Star Wars books were also published after D&D first emerged. Or that more advanced floristry books were published... curse those flower-arranging half-orc barbarians.

Straight Talking wrote:
Most counselors and psychologists (including this writer) have used role-playing as a powerful way to transform human behavior and thought. Please bear that in mind as we continue.

Behold, the idea of using ONE THING in MULTIPLE WAYS! Here, take this gun. Now, you can shoot it at someone, or you can use the butt of it to hammer a nail into a plank of wood, or you can take it to a range, train yourself, and win a shooting competition and earn a small, shiny trophy. Besides, 'role-playing' is such a broad, catch-all category that it really could apply to any sort of acting/pretending.

Straight Talking wrote:
The astute reader will have noted that already, some genuine magical terms from real witchcraft and occultism have been introduced. Druids and Bards are both part of the priesthood of ancient pre-Christian Britain.

Well done, you passed your Perception check. Now, tell me how many words have been used over the centuries and aeons of language, which have changed and evolved? Too many to list, for certain. Also, since when are Bards as we imagine them part of a priesthood? Must've been a rocking ceremony... (though I may be wrong on this, my ancient pre-Christian Britain isn't up to scratch).

Straight Talking wrote:
However, you need to realize that quite often, players will pick an alignment that is more evil or chaotic because it is more "intriguing." This is much the same as why many talented actors would rather play villains.

Not at all true. All the games I've ever played in (not that many, but still a few over 2-3 years) have been exclusively inhabited by some variation of Lawful/Chaotic Good/Neutral. Never a mention of Evil. Sure, there's been 'mischievous', but hardly the same as 'let's wreck this town... cos we can'.

Straight Talking wrote:

The morality expressed in D&D is fuzzy at best, and is certainly NOT the morality of the Bible.

...
Our young people are having enough trouble getting their values straight without being immersed in this sort of material!

First off, no kidding it's not the morality of the Bible; it's not meant to be. Secondly, whatever kids are getting their morality lessons from the Player's Guide are whack, yes, but that's not the fault of the book. They could equally pick up Justin Bieber's autobiography as a values manual and end up as effeminate, overhyped singers.

Straight Talking wrote:

Magic users draw upon arcane powers in order to exercise their profession … He or she must memorize and prepare for the use of each spell, and its casting makes it necessary to reabsorb the incantation by consulting the proper book of spells … those of magic-users must be spoken or read aloud.10

This is excellent advice for budding necromancers. When we were high priests and training witches, we would insist upon no less. This is obviously a game which requires real initiative and dedication.

Replace 'necromancers', 'high priests', 'witches' and 'game' with such words as 'students', 'lecturers', 'professors' and 'degree'. The whole idea of memorizing things for future use isn't limited to spells from D&D.

Straight Talking wrote:
"Might makes right" seems to be the rule. You are to take treasure or magic away from other players using whatever means are available, including force, magic, intimidation, coercion or negotiation

Well... not really. The fact remains that beyond a few levels, the party is most likely the most powerful group of people for leagues around. Plus, most taking of magic items occurs from NPC baddies, not other players.

Straight Talking wrote:
Additional, the handbook tells us that a wizard's "quest for knowledge and power often leads him into realms where mortals were never meant to go." That would have been an excellent description of this writer at the beginning of his magical quest over three decades ago. It is true of most people who become fascinated with the occult and the magical.

Way to take descriptive fluff seriously. I've yet to meet a Wiccan or Witch or Wizard in 'real life' at any of my gaming sessions. I almost always play an arcane character, yet have no desire to go inscribing pentacles everywhere... it's just my favoured play style.

Straight Talking wrote:
The cleric is a generic religionist of "any myth." In other words, religions are myths. Christianity is a myth; Judaism is a myth, etc. This makes the D&D cleric align with the theology of Freemasonry, where the Great Architect is generic and any old god (or goddess if you please) would do.

Disregarding the 'religions are myths' bit (not the right place for that discussion), the whole point of the cleric being 'generic' in the handbooks is so he/she can slot into any campaign setting. Moving on...

Straight Talking wrote:
How can a person, Christian or not, immerse themselves in a reality view so deeply and not have it impact the rest of their lives? This is difficult to imagine, especially considering the highly demonic and magical content of much of the game. As the saying goes, if you lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas.

Again, this relates to taking things too seriously. I treat Pathfinder as a game; regardless of the fact that an RPG contains demons or magic, or high technology or spaceships, or pirates, or ninja monkey pirates, it's up to the person how deeply they immerse themselves in anything. Also, cheers for calling us all dogs with fleas... classy.

Straight Talking wrote:
This problem is that the cosmology of D&D is fundamentally anti-Biblical.

That's your problem. There are many, many people of all kinds of religious stripes who can play it just fine.

The next section is him rambling about God and the Bible and how if you're not him, you're buggered, so moving on...

Straight Talking wrote:
Cleaning up that part of the game and leaving Jesus, the true God, out of what is essentially a SPIRITUAL quest is like rearranging the lawn chairs in hell - especially when you consider there isn't very much grass in the inferno!

Wait, what? D&D is a spiritual quest game? Since when?

Straight Talking wrote:
It needs to be emphasized that a spiritual deception which draws people away from Jesus Christ is much more dangerous than automotive chicken or people dying of starvation. People who write such things are - in all Christian charity - deceived. Down through the ages, no institution has done more to help the poor, the orphans and the starving than has the church of Jesus Christ. I would just ask them where are the rescue missions and orphanages started by D&D gamers?

There's so much wrong with this paragraph I don't know what to say... maybe that he compares playing RPGs with getting run over and dying of starvation?

Straight Talking wrote:
Additionally, unlike Russian roulette or chicken, D&D is an extremely challenging game intellectually and emotionally. It truly involves its players in ways few games do, because it does demand a high level of imagination and creative engagement. Playing "chicken" demands neither.

Say what? Challenging on intellectual and emotional levels? A person who plays a level 1 fighter for three hours every week must be drained of all intellect and emotion after that session, I tell ya. Even the more dedicated players I know of are unlikely to be emotionally invested in their characters... and while DMs can come up with some humdingers of puzzles to solve, that's entirely like saying 'dang, the Sudoku puzzle in the newspaper is absorbing my child into a world of number worship!' Furthermore, you try playing chicken with cars without intellectually challenging yourself... like calculating precise timings for running across the road (I'm imagining here, this isn't talking from experience :P ).

Straight Talking wrote:
Yes, D&D may be "fun," but it is fun with a spiritual hook in it. Sure it is stimulating and creative and there is nothing wrong with that part of it. What is wrong is that it is built on a superstructure of anti-Biblical cosmology.

And with this quote he erases nearly all his previous gripes about the game; if only the inventory had the Holy Bible in it, and all the player characters were Christians, it'd be all peachy.

Straight Talking wrote:
One D&D defender wrote, "When I play the game, I might roll the dice and - depending on the result - state that 'I cast an invisibility spell.'" His point was, how is that like "real magic?" In mental or hermetic magic, it is EXACTLY like real magic (except of course for the dice)! It is all in the intent - in the mind. It is not in whether or not you are waving a sword around!

Yes, but his intent is to cast a spell IN A GAME, not in real life. Most people are capable of making this distinction.

Straight Talking wrote:
A few years after college, I ended up working in a foundry in Milwaukee. I was around some "rough" people for whom foul language was routine. I was so immersed in it, eight hours a day, that after awhile, despite my best efforts, I began to talk just like them. It took a couple years away from the place to get my vocabulary "rinsed out."

Please appreciate the difference between a workplace and a casual gaming session... I doubt even the most dedicated gamers go for 8 hours every day. Also, the situations are different. In a D&D game, you could say 'I cast 'frost ray' upon the giant', but when in the real world are you possibly going to encounter a giant, or believe that you're capable of casting a ray of frost (however cool that may be)? Whereas swearing when talking is pretty much universal.

Straight Talking wrote:

Now this is not to say that every serious D&D gamer is going to become a Satanist or demonized. But the odds are good that they might. Please realize that to be demonized does not mean you become a slavering maniac who vomits pea soup.

Most demonized people could not be identified as such by someone without Biblical discernment. But all one has to do is watch the news or walk through the halls of any high school to realize that there are lot of demonized young people (and certainly older people too) in this country today.

Funny thing about odds; give them a big enough sample size and the odds should start ringing true. I don't know the numbers, but there are most likely millions of gamers all over the world, of many different systems. Even narrowing it down to FRPGs, the amount of people who have played them and then become Satanists or 'demonized', whatever that is, is probably vanishingly small (bear in mind I have no numbers for this; just my experience from seeing lots of gamers in one place, I could be wrong...), probably far less than his 'odds' would indicate. Also, thing about Biblical discernment of the degree this guy seems to endorse, a whole lotta people would qualify as 'demonized'.

Straight Talking wrote:
Finally, the comment about the D&D suicide rate being ten times below the national average is insulting. I would like to see how Mr. Freeman arrived at that figure. As has been observed, statistics can be manipulated to prove just about anything.

Why's it insulting? Since it reflects badly on his report? And he's right about the statistics bit... he does it himself.

Straight Talking wrote:
We agree, and do not mean to imply that every D&D gamer is going to end up on death row before they are 18. Sean Sellers is probably close to the "worst case scenario." Most of the D&D problems we have encountered are a bit more mild - things like demonic obsession, suicide attempts, involvement in witchcraft or Satanism. However, they are all pretty serious and indeed can be life-threatening.

He makes it sound like all the 'mild' things are common occurrences at gaming tables... not so.

Straight Talking wrote:
The question still stands. Why would a Christian wish to involve themselves in such a game?

Because they find it fun, they are able to detach themselves from the game (like 99.9% of everyone) to a sufficient degree where they don't go home and practise swordplay or spells, and because it's fun.

I realise I missed out a whole load of the article, but it's really really dang long and lots of bits are him just ranting rabidly, and that's funny in itself.

Also, replying to kyrt-ryder...

kyrt-ryder wrote:
Really? Adventuring is pretty much murdering 'people' (defined as sentient creatures) and taking their stuff.

True, there's not really a way around it. I guess we justify it by saying these creatures, although sentient, deserved a mace in the face. These days, make-believe murder is hardly uncommon though... see virtually any video game that isn't Barbie's Horse Adventures...


Kelsey MacAilbert wrote:
Damn, Kyremi. That was badass.

Thanks :) it's 2:30AM, I'm bored, and these kinds of blindly ignorant people irritate me no end.

And thanks for the link for part II :D


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Ah yes... this topic. Let's start from the top...

Straight Talk wrote:
Our "covendom" was in Milwaukee, Wisconsin; just a short drive away from the world headquarters of TSR, the company which makes Dungeons and Dragons in Lake Geneva, WI.

Well, dang. Everyone knows that proximity to a location means they're somehow related... they've got it all figured out.

Straight Talk wrote:
If you play at shooting your friend in the head with what you think is an unloaded pistol and don't know a shell is in the chamber, is your friend any less dead because you were playing?

Sure, but you call me when someone 'accidentally summoned a demon and it ate my friend'.

Straight Talk wrote:
One pro-D&D psychologist wrote that "There is hardly a game in which the players do not indulge in murder, arson, torture, rape or highway robbery."

I don't know about everyone else's games, but I've never experienced torture or rape in my games, and probably not even highway robbery. Murder and arson are a bit more likely... but it's all about the context. If there's a party that goes out and says 'right, we're burning down this town and slaughtering the people COS WE CAN', then that's different to 's#&+, there's an evil cult who are attacking us, let's destroy their base along with their leader so they don't kill the innocent villagers'.

Straight Talk wrote:
In fact, the Dungeon Master's Guide gives the celebrated Adolph Hitler as an example of a real historical person that exhibited D&D charisma! The values contained in the game are, at the very best, "might makes right."

No, they're not. Time magazine has put Hitler and even Stalin as 'Man/Person of the Year', so good Christians shouldn't read Time magazine? (As a side point, if they really did use Hitler as an example of high charisma, they really could've come up with someone less controversial...)

Straight Talk wrote:
Additionally, male characters in the game often try to seduce female characters; and references abound to things like venereal disease and satyriasis (a male condition of permanent sexual arousal).

That's completely in the hands of the player; there's no class called the Seducer. And I'm pretty sure the DMG doesn't have a section on sexual diseases...

Straight Talk wrote:
Fear generation-via spells and mental imaging about fear-filled, emotional scenes, and threats to survival of FRP characters.

Snakes and Ladders can induce fear in you if you've got a 1 in 6 chance only of not landing on snakes that send you all the way back to square 1. That's a 'threat' to your 'character' too; without threat in a game, also known as obstacles to a goal, what's the point?

Straight Talk wrote:
Isolation-psychological removal from traditional support structures (family, church, etc.) into an imaginary world. Physical isolation due to extremely time-consuming play activities outside the family atmosphere.

This is typical of addicts of anything, anywhere. Not at all exclusive to D&D.

Straight Talk wrote:
Physical torture and killings-images in the mind can be almost as real as the actual experiences. Focus of the games is upon killings and torture for power, acquisition of wealth, and survival of characters.

Again, what helluva kind of game are they playing?? None of the campaigns I've experienced have been 'focused on killing and torture'... they're focused on having a good time.

Straight Talk wrote:
Erosion of family values-the Dungeon Master (DM) demands an all-encompassing and total loyalty, control and allegiance.

I nearly LOLed at this one. I doubt when I was DM to my friends I suddenly became a paternal figure... and they definitely never gave 'all-encompassing and total loyalty'.

Straight Talk wrote:
Situational Ethics-any act can be justified in the mind of the player, therefore there are no absolutes of right or wrong; no morality other than "point" morality needed to ensure survival and advancement. There are no win-win situations and good forces seldom triumph over evil forces.

They obviously never heard of the Paladin. 'Nuff said.

Straight Talk wrote:
Loss of Self-control-authority over self is surrendered to the DM. Depending on the personality and ego-strength of the player, this loss can be near absolute.

Screw the rituals, all you need to do is be a DM and apparently you get COMPLETE authority over your players! World takeover, here I come...

Straight Talk wrote:
Degradation-pain and torture are heavily involved in sadistic, sexual situations that graphically appeal to visceral impulses. Much of the material (as mentioned above) is well into pornographic areas and stresses the defilement of innocence.

Seriously... no. Same point as a few quotes up.

Straight Talk wrote:
...they also entrain the player in an entirely different way of looking at life: what is called by anthropologists the "Magical World View(MWV)." This MWV is far outside the cultural norms of most societies, and certainly outside the realms of Biblical values.

What? Magic is a worldview? As far as I've ever seen it, it's just another tool for the job, really.

Straight Talk wrote:
The MWV is like that. If you know the right technology (spell, ritual, incantation, etc.) the universe must respond-just like the light must go on if you flip the switch. It is automatic, and scientifically repeatable.

They obviously never played D&D. They describe magic as an I-WIN button, whereas it's anything but... funnily enough, they seem particularly irked by the fact it's 'scientifically repeatable'. Bonus point: they've obviously not heard of arcane spell failure either.

Straight Talk wrote:
The Judeo-Christian Worldview (i.e. from the Bible, and held by most cultures in the Western world to some degree) teaches, on the contrary, that the universe is in control of a sovereign Person, God. To get "results," He must be asked. Thus, it is more like a child going up to a parent and asking for candy, than getting it from a vending machine. The parent may say "yes," "no," or "Wait till later."

Funny that. In my most recent game, a cleric of a dwarven god prayed to his deity to resurrect a person; the DM made the cleric roll a knowledge (Religion) check to see if it worked... wait, this sounds familiar! Blimey, dwarven gods are part of the Judeo-Christian Worldview!

Straight Talk wrote:
The reason is that in the "universe" of Dungeons and Dragons magic is neutral, and can be used by "good guys" or by "bad guys." It is like "The Force" in the Star Wars movies. This magical morality pervades D&D, and it is utterly in opposition to the Word of God and even common sense.

Yes, it is like the Force, since it's a tool. Not a worldview.

Straight Talk wrote:
If games and manuals which extol black magic, rape, sado-masochism, murder and violence are not "evil communications," then I do not know the meaning of the terms!

A rare moment of agreement here. Yes, those sort of things are undoubtedly evil. However, that isn't D&D. It's hard to imagine one of the world's largest toy companies buying a company whose main product 'extols black magic, rape, sado-masochism etc.'... one would imagine the investors might be a tad put off.

Straight Talk wrote:
Whole long list of an entire 11!! people who've died

Correlation doesn't imply causation. If you look at the number of pirate attacks in the past 20 years, and correlate this with global temperature, you see they both rise. O S~*!, PIRATES CAUSE GLOBAL WARMING!! Another rebuttal; these are 11 examples, from millions of people, plenty of room in millions of people for 11 crazy ones.

Straight Talk wrote:
...there is no doubt that Dungeons and Dragons and its imitators are right out of the pit of hell. No Christian or sane, decent individual of whatever faith really should have anything to do with them.

Well, that's all of us damned then. Who's going to go let Vin Diesel know he's not a sane, decent individual?

Apologies for the long post, so here's a tl;dr: these people crazy. This was fun though, any other whacko articles out there we can rip apart?


At the most basic level, all people who participate in RPGs for any length of time can't be extremely socially awkward, otherwise they'd be too awkward to be around other people at all in the first place, I'd guess... so there's probably a minimum level of social capability where someone can stand being around other people for hours on end.

On my part, yeah, I've seen people who would stand out from a crowd anywhere but where gaming nights occur, not just from appearance but the way they act. However there are polar opposites too; one of my current DMs is almost the stereotypical 'jock' type (social, does lots of sports, is the 'cool type', etc.), only without the bullying of the geeks.

Also, I agree with a point raised further up in this thread that gaming is escapism... it's a chance to leave the (possible) mediocrity of day-to-day life and be a powerful wizard, brawling warrior, stealthy assassin... whatever you want, within the realms of decency and the DM's rules, really. This would naturally attract the type of people who both want and need this kind of escapism.

At the end of the day, though, too many people enjoy RPGs to lump them into one social category and say 'ya know, we're all awkward buggers'. I mean, hell, Vin Diesel plays D&D, and you don't get much more 'action tough guy' than him... and then you have the people we talk about in the worst PC/DM thread. So, there's a huge variety of us.


In terms of weaker spells, yes, there are some examples. The level 1 word Force Shield gives a +4 bonus to AC, just like Mage Armor does, except Force Shield lasts 1 minute/level, whereas I've been told Mage Armor lasts 10 minutes/level. In general there are less options for any sort of illusion spells or such... but my build is mostly a blaster anyway so I don't notice it as much.

One massive bonus, however, is the amount of words you get. I calculated that if you build a human sorcerer from the ground up to have as many words of power as possible, by 7th level he'd have 30 Effect and Meta words; that's not even counting the Target words. That's a helluva lot of options in a fight.

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