Kolokotroni's page

So I was listening to 3.5 private sanctuary's coverage of Paizocon seminars, specifically Auntie Lisa's Story time. A great story which was intersting enough for me to consider 'accidently' missing my stop on the train this morning so I wouldn't have to cut it short when I got to work.

So anyway one of the questions was the now seemingly ubiquitous, when are we going to have space pathfinder? And she very reasonably explained that in order to do a space rpg she would have to support it on similar levels to Pathfinder proper, with adventures, game aids, setting material and such, in order for it to be successful. She also expressed concerns about splitting the paizo market. And certainly I agree with that, which means a space opera rpg for Paizo isn't going to happen for the forseable future.

But what about Golarion space. We have Numeria, which has a literal crashed space ship. Clearly there is room in golarion for superscience and space travel. What if down the line (presumably not in the next few years) there was an AP that went through Numeria into space. If it was accompanied with a set of supplemental rules made for PFRPG, could it work as an in golarion, in Pathfinder RPG product subset?

We have seen there is room for alot of stuff in golarion. Is there room enough in golarions univers for a few space ships? I think it could be a very fun AP of fantasy characters (made with pfrpg rules) being swept up into an adventure in futuristic space ships. I would be a genre subset, but it wouldn't be a new game or a new world, just a new piece of pathfinder as it is. Much like psionics, ninjas/samurai or guns have additional rules and have their own genre and their own rules, this could have supplemental rules on advanced science, its own advenutre path, but still be part of pathfinder as a whole and part of golarion.

It would probably be more risky then the 'pirate' AP that Skull and Shackles will be, but it wouldnt require a wild departure from the normal releases or a major increase in releases on paizos part. Just the committment of an Adventure path, an RPG product, and a couple setting products to expand the rules and the setting just enough to make it work (much the way the upcomming rules are expanding just enough to have western style games in golarion). It wouldn't be what the hardcore space opera fans want, but it would be a fair compromise that sits right on top of the world and the game that we all have come to love, and possibly give us the tools as players and GMs to build something bigger.

Paizo staff have often said that Golarion is designed to have room for every kind of game people play. Is it possible that there is more room then we all thought?

A friend of mine is looking for a relatively rules light game that works for a super heroes game. Basically he wants to run a super hero game with relatively little prep time, and I was thinking to look for something that was lighter on the rules side then say mutants and masterminds to help bring down the prep required. Anyone have any ideas?

Ok so a few premises:
-I dont have a problem with a high magic world. I like magic, and wizards and clerics slinging around the powers of the universe is all fine by me.
-I dont like the reliance characters have on magic items. Like many others I want magic items to feel special, and become a part of a characters history, not something more akin to an article of clothing, to be replaced often and without concern. I want to find a way to make magic items rare and special.
-I do believe that without magic items a lot of additional adjustment is required on the part of the dm. Erasing the magic mart mentality has never been easy both mechanically and in the hearts and minds of players. I want to find a way to do it without having to re-write the book and without penalyzing my players.

For a while now I have been considering what to do about this. And though this is for a specific campaign, if it works it may be a permanent change in my games. My solution has two parts. First is an idea borrowed from a poster here on these boards with some minor tweaks (thanks Brodiggan Gale).

This replaces 5 of the big six items. And in playtests it makes the characters survivable, but it still assumes between 40% and 60% of normal wealth will still be spent on magic gear.

So to go on top of that I am giving each character the option of a free Super Genius Games Archetype without requiring them to trade out one of the starting packages. For those that dont know the supergenius archetype products assign to each base class one or two sets of 'starting packages' that include various class features the class has. It then gives a bunch of new 'archetype packages' that can be trades for those original class features in any class.

The idea here being that the additional abilities provided by the archetypes will cover any remaining 'need' for magic items. You can take a martial or acher archetype to hit harder or have more varied martial abilities. Or you can take a divine or arcane archetype to add utility/buff/healing etc to your character.

My belief is that with these two changes magic items are no longer needed, and can instead be something given during major plot points. I would eliminate all magic items that gave a purely numerical bonus entirely. So there would be no +1 swords, just 'Viruth, the flaming holy great sword'[with no +xbonus required in front of the flaming and holy properties]

What do people think?

So my group has just started part 2 of kingmaker and we have been in discussion about the actual governing of our kingdom and how we are going to handle it. Our original idea was instead of having a monarchy to have a sort of 'High Council' with a prime minister instead of a King/Queen. I have been working out some details of the laws and rights within the kingdom and would like to know what people think.

Position/Ranks
Lords of the High Council (positions laid out in the kingdom Building rules) – Leaders of the kingdom, have the highest overall authority. Only a majority vote by the High council (including the accused) can bring a high council member up on charges for any crime. After that a trial is held, and decision is rendered by the Prime minister. In the event the Prime Minister is the one being tried, the Councilor renders the descision. If convicted of a capital crime, a High Council member is removed from office and replaced by Majority Vote of the remaining high council. A High council member can only otherwise be removed by a 2/3 vote by the high council.

Vassal – Land Holding Noble (currently only Soothscale with soothscaleholt[one of our cities] and the silver mine). Required to provide taxes based on their lands, and contribute retainers to military and civilian offices. Should someone wish to become a Vassal they must provide the kindom with at least 2 hexes worth of land cleared and explored and have at least 100 retainers to provide administration and protection, as well as freeman to work and tend to the land. Each vassal must provide at least 25 retainers per hex to military and civilian offices.

A vassal has the right to bring charges before the high council in case of any grievance. Such proceedings would be handled by the king himself. A vassal may not be detained until the conclusion of such proceedings.

Retainer – Knights, Squires and Quartermasters, who are beholden to a Vassal or Lord of the Council, and are required to perform services for the kingdom (according to their skill) when called upon. A retainer has the right to bring and face charges before the Councilor and a panel of his magistrates in case of any grievance, for a trial. A retainer may not be detained except on direct order of the high council, or at the conclusion of such proceedings.

Citizen – In order to gain citizenship a freeman must give 5 years of military service, or 10 years of civilian service (under the non-military high council members such as Councilor or Head Diplomat) in order to gain citizenship. All citizens receive a piece of land sufficient to provide for a household, upon completion of their service They ofcourse may continue that service as long as they are able if they wish or retire after the 5/10 year period. In case of any grievance a citizen has the right to bring it before one of the Councilor's Magistrates for a summary judgment.

A citizen may only be detained by order of a Magistrate (or higher authority) or if they commit a crime directly witnessed by agents of the law (Marshal/Warden’s men).

Steadholder:
Any Citizen can be tasked by a Vasal Or Lord to maintain and manage their lands. In relation to any issues that occur on the lands he is responsible for, a Steadholder has the same rights as a Retainer.

Freeman – Any normal person living within the kingdom. A freeman has the right to work and live on the lands of a noble (or the High Council Lords), and in return pay a tithe proportional to the kingdoms current tax rate. Any gouging of freeman (tithe being charged not in line with the current tax rate) will be punished by the seizing of lands held by that noble. All freeman have the right to leave the lands they are on at any time, but while there, must obey the rule of the Vassal or Lord who owns them. Freeman cannot themselves bring up charges to the courts, however their Lords/Vassals can bring charges to the Magistrates in the name of any freeman residing on their lands.

Vassals have the right and responsibility to enforce the Council’s Law on Freeman who occupy their lands.

The Low Council – The Low Council is made up of the Second in commands of all the high council members who assist them in the execution of their duties and act with their authority in the matters of their Bailiwick. All Low Council members are Retainers of their respective Lords. They have the authority to give orders to anyone besides a high council member within their Bailiwick.

Crimes:

Treason – Providing assistance, comfort, or information to enemies of the Kingdom, and acting directly against it’s interests.
Sentence – Death, Permanent Imprisonment, Exhile(this is reserved exclusively for people duped into treason).

Murder – Killing of another person within the kingdom without justification
Sentence – Death, Permanent Imprisonment

Theft – Unlawful removal or destruction of property. This includes larceny, robbery, destruction of propery, fraud, tax evasion, and corruption.

Sentence – Payment of value for removed/damaged property once to the victim and once to the crown (Nobles are responsible for this payment of their retainers/steadholders in the event they themselves cannot pay), and one of the following:
-up to 10 years of indentured servitude in service of the victim. The accused can choose to instead pay the value of the years of labor instead. Should the accused not be able to pay the first part of the sentence, the value of that fine is also to be added to the term of servitude.
-imprisonment of a term to be set by the presiding authority (this is reserved for repeat offenders)

Assault – Physical harm to any person or persons in the realm.
Setance – Payment of any medical treatment required by the victim, and a matching payment to be made to the realm (anyone not able to pay must enter indentured servitude to work off the debt) as well as
-up to 5 years indentured servitude in service of the victim or
-up to 10 years imprisonment set by the Presiding Authority.

Restrictions:
All rates and lengths of servitude are to be based on the prevailing wages of a worker of the accused’s skill.

The victim has the right to determine the nature of the service the accused is to provide in the case of such a sentence. These services should coincide with the known skills of the acused, and are subject to judgement by the prevailing authority.

Time spent in indentured servitude that is within military or civilian service does not count towards the time needed for citizenship in the event the accused is not a citizen.

During servitude the accused retains any rights, standings, or property they previously held (besides what might be forfeited to pay a fine) but must obey all reasonable requests by the victim in service of their duty. Failure to do so requires a re-evaluation of sentence by the presiding authority over the original case.

Rights of all:

The First Right
All people have a right to live and work within the kingdom regardless of race so long as they obey the Council’s law including direct orders by the council and their subordinates. Any interference with this right is to be considered by law the crime of theft (removal of ones ability to live and work is akin to stealing their wages).

The Second Right
All people of the kingdom have a right to speak their minds and gather in public or in private as they see fit, so long as they obey the Council’s law including direct orders by the council and their subordinates. Any interference with this right is to be considered treason

The Third Right
All people have the right to bear grievances in open meetings(schedule of which will be no less then 8 hours once a week in the capital) of the Low Council, which if deemed appropriate by low council members will be dealt with or brought before the high council. Any intervention with this right is to be considered treason (preventing members of the kingdom even freeman from bearing their grievances before the low council harms the kingdom on a fundamental level)

The Fourth Right
All people have the right to basic property, even freeman. A man’s home and his possessions may not be taken without the authority of law. A landholder has the right to evict a freeman but must pay the freeman a fair value of any home that must be left behind. Any eviction gains precedence over other cases in being brought as a grievance before the low council.

The Fifth Right
All people have the right to bring crimes to the attention of Wardens/Marshals for investigation. If in the course of that investigation officers of the Council's Law determine a crime has been committed, the office of the Counciler will determine further action. Interference with this right is to be considered treason under the Council's Law.

In my group's kingmaker campaign our dm is having us create second in commands for all our leadership positions. Basically since there is still an assumption of the players going off and advneturing, someone needs to stay behind and keep things running. We have a fairly large group, and most of the positions are filled by players, so SOMEONE has to run the kingdom.

The NPC seconds are to be one level lower then us (we are currently level 4). My character is a Magus, and I am the kingdom's General, so I have created this NPC to be my second in command. Without any spoilers, do you think this character will be useful in assisting a kingdom's general in this adventure?

Colonel Sand Glocka

Human Arcane Duelist bard 3
N Medium humanoid
Init +2; Senses Perception +4

Defense
AC 17, touch 13, flat-footed 14 (+3 armor, +2 Dex, +1 dodge, +1 shield)
hp 31 (12+8+2d8+2)
Fort +2, Ref +5, Will +2;

Offense
Speed 30 ft.
Melee rapier +5 (1d6+1/18–20) or
whip +4 (1d3+1)
Ranged shortbow +4 (1d6/×3)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft. (15 ft. with whip)
Special Attacks bardic performance 10 rounds/day (Ralying Cry, distraction, fascinate [DC 13], inspire courage +1), Inspire Competance +2

Bard Spells Known (CL 2nd; concentration +5)
1st (4/day)—comprehend languages, cure light wounds, Remove Fear, Charm Person (DC 13)
0 (at will)—dancing lights, daze (DC 12), ghost sound (DC 12), message, prestigiditation, Mending

Statistics
Str 12, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 8, Cha 15

Base Atk +1; CMB +1; CMD 14
Feats Dodge, Skill Focus (Perform [Oratory]), Weapon Finese, Combat Casting, Arcane Strike

Skills:
Bluff +8, Diplomacy +8, Intimidate +8, Knowledge Engineering +7, Knowledge Local +7, Knowledge Nobility +7, Perception +4, Perform Oratory, +10, Ride +7, Sense Motive +4

Languages Common, Draconic
SQ Bardic Performance, Cantrips

Gear masterwork studded leather, buckler, mw rapier, shortbow with 20 arrows, whip, pen, ink, paper, sealing wax, seal, light horse (combat trained) with riding saddle

Last night I ran a playtest with a few friends online via skype, and some jerry rigged map and rolling tools (mostly done with irc script).

There were 4 party members a dwarven gunslinger (using a musket), a dwarven cleric (battle cleric), an elven rogue (finesse and currently using only a single short sword) and a human fighter (2handed combat with power attack and cleave). I controlled the cleric as a dmpc, and 3 players controlled the other characters.

character creation: We rolled 4d6 drop the lowest for stats, and we rolled for starting gold. For the gunslinger we used the highest current total (5d6x10)

The gunslinger: Her stats after modifiers were as followed:
Str 12
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 19
Wis 16
Cha 7

Her first level feat was point blank shot.

For gear she rolled a 15 therefore starting with 150 gp for gear. This was a problem right from the beggining. I was not allowing crafting prior to the start of the game so after she bought armor(studded leather), a melee weapon and basica adventuring gear, she had enough money left over for 6 normal shots and 3 paper cartridges. 9 shots.

She also took survival and perception as her first level skills and a hp as favored class bonus (for a total of 13hp at first level)

Setup:
The scneario was the party had heard of a group of farms being harrassed about a days travel away from their current town being harassed by a group of goblins. The party decided to track down the goblin lair and deal with them.

Play:
To start off with the gunslinger's player was pleased. She had a good perception and suvival so she lead the party through the wilderness in search of the goblin lair.

First encounter:
On the way they encountered a group of hungry wolves that failed to ambush them due to the gunslingers keen senses. This fight was rather quick. The gunslinger went first firing a shot and wounding one of the wolves. The 2handed fighter then moved up and cleaved, killing both of them with good damage roles.

As they got closer to the area around the farmsteads, they discovered sets of tracks. The gunslinger with a good survival check the gunslinger identified them as humanoid footprints likely goblin and the party decided to follow them leading away from the farmsteads.

Second encounter: Goblin patrol (3 goblins)
On their way they encountered a group of goblins apparently out on patrol (the party was near to the cave where the goblins made their lair).
The rogue went first here, moving up and killing one of the goblins with a sneak attack. The goblins went next both attacking the rogue, trying to flank him. The fighter then went and lent support to the rogue (essentially greating a 4 person flank chain). The gunslinger went next firing and killing one of the goblins, there was a cheer as she thought she gained a grit, but as she had not used one yet this day, she was already at her maximum. On a series of bad attack rolls the cleric, rogue, remaining goblin and fighter all missed their next attacks for the next 2 turns. The gunslinger reloaded and then on the second turn fired, and the looming threat struck, a roll of a 2, a misfire. She decided to spend a grit point to quick clear the jam with her move action. The cleric then hit and killed the last goblin.

Shortly after this encounter they located the entrance to the lair, they watched another goblin patrol leave they lair, and then carefully made their way inside.

3rd encounter:
Inside they ran into a pair of goblins and their pet goblin dog playing a game of dice. Upon seeing the adventurers they grabed their weapons and attacked.

The goblins went first attacking the fighter and rogue wounding them. Then the fighter went, 5ft stepping past the goblins and cleaved attacking the goblin dog, wounding it but not killing it and killing one of the goblins. Then the dog went attacking the fighter and further injured the fighter. The gunslinger then shot at the remaining goblin but missed due to the penalty for firing into combat. The rogue went and slightly wounded the remaining goblin. The cleric went and healed the fighter with cure light wounds as he was badly injured.

He also made a heal check to determine the degree of injury of their opponents (we normally allow this as a free action to determin injured, badly injured or near death) the golbin was injured and the goblin dog was near death. What happened next infuriated me in 2 ways. First the cleric told the fighter to attack the goblin instead of the dog and leave the dog for the gunslinger to kill so she can get back a grit. This kind of metagaming didnt make me happy, but then the gunslinger player said dont bother, indicating she didnt feel it mattered. Neither of these two revelations made me happy with the existing grit mechanics.

The combat lasted 2 more rounds with the gunslinger fired another shot but failed to hit, the fighter and rogue flanked and finished off the remaining foes.

4th encounter:
Further into the lair the party ran into 2 giant spiders. In this combat the fighter decided to fire one shot and then realizing she only had 3 rounds left drew her melee weapon and used that instead. The fight took a while and was difficult, but eventually the party killed the two spiders.

At this point they took stock, they had found 2 cure light potions so they were able to heal up fairly well, but the gunslinger only had 3 rounds left 2 paper cartridges and 1 regular shot. This was obviously a concern as they had no idea how much was left between them and the presumed goblin leader. She wasnt useless with her axe (her backup melee weapon) but its not really fun to be a glorified warrior.

5th encounter: this was the final fight, against the goblin leader, a cavalier on a goblin dog mount with a goblin cleric and 2 regular goblins.

This was a rather difficult fight for the party, by the end of it both the rogue and the fighter were unconcious, and the gunslinger was completely out of ammo, it was actually the cleric that finished off the goblin cleric (who was the last remaining enemy). The cleric revived their allies, gathered up what they could find including the head of the goblin leader and set the rest to fire, hoping to drive off any additional goblins in the area they hadnt dealth with.

Impressions: It sucks to play a low level gunslinger, particularly from level 1. If you are not permitted to craft prior to the start of the adventure (which many dms do not allow) you will be VERY short of ammunition. The gunslinger player was still not pleased with attacking every other round. There are options to improve this but they dont come into play until later levels when you can afford more alchemical cartridges and have the feats to take rapid reload (as well as the lightning reload deed). This is a major problem and in no way worth it. The standard firearms (pistol and musket) are just plain poor at low levels.

I dont like grit and deeds as they stand. The mechanic is poor. Low starting value makes players want to hoard it, and thus miss out on recovering it, it also encourages the WORST kind of metagaming (hence the example where the cleric thought to have the fighter not finish off an opponent but let the gunslinger do it to gain back the grit). But whats worse is the player didnt even care to do it. At low levels the only worthwhile thing to do with grit most of the time is to clear jams. It is not until level 3 that grit is even remotely interesting. For the defining feature of the class (cuz it certainly isnt using crummy guns) that is a major problem in my opinion.

I dont like guns as they stand. Seriously, I REALLY dont like the gun rules, particularly at low levels. There is a huge investment required for them to just be slightly worse then crossbows. Misfires counter the good crit multiplier and untill you invest a feat, get deeds and get expensive alchemical cartridges, you are still firing every other turn. There is nothing more depressing then a player stating their turn is, 'i load my gun' and moving on. Does it get better at around level 7? Yes, but that doesnt help 1-6. Also, at low levels, touch AC doesnt make much of a difference, the main 'advantage' of firearms means very very little at low levels. All but the final boss had touch ACs within 1 or 2 of their normal AC. For all the trouble, it just isnt worth it at low levels.

Paper Cartridge: This simple mix of black powder and
either pellets or a bullet increases the misfire value by 1.
Cost: 12 gp.

Presumably this should be reduce instead of increase? Seems like a poor use of 12 gp otherwise.

I was debating whether to put this in the rpg section or here, but I decided there were too many spoilers to park it in plain view.

So my current campaign is moving along and I am starting to give serious thought to how I am going to pull off it's planned climax.

If you are in my campaign, stop reading now.

So basically my questions are, do you think the idea would be a fun climax for an extended council of theives game? And what about representing the combat among the immortals, and presentation to the players?

Ok, so I am sure many have already brought this up, but this is really frustrating me. I am trying to put together a gunslinger npc to add to my pathfinder game, and I cant. I just dont have the room for all the feats this class needs. The sad thing is, the fighter in it's normal form is more suited to gunfighting (as it stands) then the gunslinger. This is pretty rediculous if you ask me.

To present my example, I decided i want my character to take the gunslinger feat from the campaign setting, not a crazy idea I think. But in doing so it means I have to squeeze out feats this class absolutely needs. Namely, the shooting feats point blank and precise shot, rapid reload/lightning reload, extra grit (you get a pitifully small amount of grit to begin with), quickdraw (why isnt this a built in bonus feat exactly? Theres a class ability that works with quickdraw, why the feat tax to make a gunslinger seem like a gunslinger?). God help you if you want to go two weapon fighting it.

I find I have to leave important stuff out, like weapon spec (the only real benefit the class gets from being a 'fighter alternate') and vital strike for when (most of the time) the character is only firing one shot a round.

At level 8(the character's level) the normal fighter would get 3 more feats, giving me enough room to actually allow weapon focus and the gunslinger feat (for which weapon focus is a prereq). And what do I get for my trading of those 3 feats? Grit points and deeds, of which the most important one will require me to take 2 additional feats to make the class work in the first place (lightning reload and signature deed).

I really dont think i've ever seen this before, where a class was so heavily feat taxed without sufficient bonus feats (or class features) to make up for it.

Module/Adventure: This was an improvised playtest done online between myself (as dm) 4 others that are not part of my normal gaming group. The premise was that the party was infultrating a giant's lair to retrieve a special macguffin. It was based off a series of encounters I pulled from an old campaign I ran years ago.

Party Setup: The party was 11th level, with standard wealth by level for their level in gear. 20 point buy was used. Except for the Magus playtest documents, it was core rules and advanced players guide.

Female Human magus, using a rapier as her primary weapon but was strength based and wearing mithral fullplate (I found the choice interesting and yes the character had heavy armor profficiency as a feat since she only had medium proficiency untill level 13). In terms of her spell book we decided she could have normal spells gained at each level plus 1 spell at each character level for just the cost of scribing it (as if she had encounters a spell book in treasure) and the rest had to come from scrolls bought.

Half Orc Male fighter (sword and board fighter going the two weapon fighting/sheild bash route).

Human Oracle of battle. Had the battle Cry Revalation, and combat healer, and I believe skilled at arms and weapon mastery.

Half Elf Bard - This character was an archer bard with a fair amount of buffing added in.

Initial Impressions: I had a look at the magus' sheet and found the player's spell choices interesting. She had listed the spells prepared for the day(3 uses of chill touch, and a little more utility and battlefield control and offensive spells). But the reason for this became clear soon enough. The character seemed to have a descent AC, and saves, and pretty good hit points (around a hundred if i remember right)

First Encounter:
3 Hill Giants were guarding the entrance to the lair. The party was able to approach without being noticed due to plenty of cover as they approached the entrance. The guards were playing a 'dice' game that involved sizable boulders, so the party decided to try to sneak past them with an invisibility spere. They almost succeeded too, had it not been for a particularly poor role on the part of the fighter.

When they heard the noise of the fighter's clanking armor they pulled a hiden lever that barred the entrance to the lair and a fight ensued. It wasnt long before I realized this party synergized extraordinarily well. The oracle's battle cry and the bard's inspire courage actually stacked for attacks (1 being morale and 1 being competance), and with 3 of the 4 characters able to supply buff spells, they had a pretty easy time with the hill giants. The fighter and the oracle both moved to engage a hill giant each, though the oracle cast a buff on himself first, with the bard staying behind, starting his song and casting haste on the whole party.

The magus started off with spending an arcane pool point to turn her +3 sword into a +5 flamming sword. Moved into range of the nearest giant and cast chill touch. I thought this was an odd move even though the giant failed his save and took 1 strength damage(grumble), but realized that now the magus was essentially holding a +5 flamming chilltouch sword for her next 10 attacks. [the hill giants had already spent their actions throwing rocks at where they thought the noise was coming from]

During the subsequent rounds the party quickly overwhelmed the giants, with the buffs from both the battle cry and the bard song, as well as a well placed glitterdust by the bard. Odly enough the magus chose not to use spell combat (as she didnt want to lose the 'held' charges of chill touch. Though the save wasn't hard for the giant, after a couple rounds he had taken 4 strength damage from chill touch before he was killed.

Second Encounter:

With the guards down, the party proceeded into the lair, no longer making much effort at stealth (too many full plate wearer's in the party). The came upon a chamber where they found what appeared to be a giant priest (Human with the giant template applied and cleric levels) and 2 stone giants(who were sitting on stone benches some way away from the altar the priest was next to) in the middle of a ritual sacrifice of an elf child. With the lack of stealth there wasn't a surprise round, and the magus went first. This was the first use we saw of spell combat and spell pool. Intent on saving the girl, the magus again used an arcane pool point to enhance her weapon to +5 flaming, then used pool spell to cast dimension door which she had not prepared, and went next to the priest and attacked him, hitting him twice and standing between him and the alter the child was on.

The other 3 characters double moved into the room which was crowded with stone benches but were intercepted by the two stone giants.

The cleric bestowed curse on the magus, providing a -4 penalty to attacks saves and skill checks.

On subsequent turns the bard and the fighter primarily fought the stone giants and the oracle attempted (somewhat unsuccessfuly) to get to the magus, still protecting the child though her attacks were not of much use. She ended up using spell combat more to ensure success on her concentration checks then to actually try and hit. But with clever use of what spells she had prepared, she did hold off the giant priest long enough for the oracle to get there and remove the curse. Black tentacles came in handy despite the giants fairly favorable CMD.

Third (Final) Encounter:
The third and final encounter occured when the party found the room where the item they were seeking was kept. This time the bard went some distance ahead (stealthily) and found the room contained a cloud giant (the giant king) and 3 fire giants. This was going to be a tough fight and the party took a few rounds to buff before entering the room.

This time it was actually the fighter that faced the main enemy, the cloud giant (more as a matter of positioning then as a concious tactical choice), and the magus made good use of her spell combat to improvise some protection for her to aid the other party members. The fire giants suddenly were less eager to attack her after she put up a chill fire shield in her first spell combat. And a well placed grease actually caused one of the giants to fall over. The oracle made good use of combat healer as he remained within a 5 ft step of both the magus and fighter for most of the fight.

The bard was knocked unconcious near the end when he decided to take his ranged attacks despite not being able to back away from the giant threatening him. At the end of the fight, most of the party had spent most of what they could. Everyone was low on hitpoints, spells, and the magus had 1 arcane pool point left.

Overall Impressions:

In the third fight I think I saw what the real potential of the magus was. She was well buffed (by both her own and other spells) and made good use of alot of her abilities. Combining attacks and a few control spells made for a potent mix. And the damage the character could put out when hasted and casting damage spells together was considerable. But I think the best use of spell combat was when she was doing things other then damage with the spell. A well placed web, or casting invisibility after her attacks to make hitting back harder.

None of the other characters felt overshadowed, and 2 of them were also caster/combat mixes. And it was usually still the fighter dealing the most damage, except for a few turns where the magus cast big damage spells and hit with both attacks and was buffed to a similar or greater degree then the fighter.

One of the things I noticed about the magus that is different from other fighting/casting mixes (be they base classes or prestige classes) is that the mix is pretty seamless, and even if they dont have a chance to buff before a fight, they arent waiting several rounds before they get into the thick of things. Enhancing your weapon is a swift action (and the magus in this test did that every round). And using spell combat the magus can buff and attack in the same round. Sure the attack is just a 3/4 bab full attack with a 1handed weapon, but its something, as opposed to not getting to do anything offensive the first turn or two.

The 15 minute workday problem seems to have been resolved by the arcane pool. But can we come up with a less then 3 word way to refer to the points? Arcane Pool Point is a bit clumsy to say (minor quibble I know).

Also, there was some confusion about the close range arcana. It says there must be a single target, but how does that work with something like scorching ray? Does it work? Is it more then one touch attack? Can it be used with spell strike? If so how does that work?

Overall I have to say, I liked seeing the class in action. It definately feels different from anything I have seen before. And I look forward to including them in my game and maybe playing one down the line.

Hi Everyone. I did a preliminary run of a encounter(that includes a Magus) I plan on running against my players in my Friday game yesterday with another pair of friends not in the game. If I am introducing something untested as what is planned to be a hard encounter (which this is) I always prefer to do a dry run first, to make sure my plan isn't going to result in a party wipe. So if you are in my game, stop reading now, though really it isnt going to give much away besides the encounter itself.

Module/Adventure: This is an encounter in a modified version of the Council of thieves AP (basically I really liked volume 2 and 3 of this AP but preferred to take it off the rails into and out of those two adventures).

Observations: This class is going to have SERIOUS 15 minute workday problems. The majority of its abilities revolve around casting spells or using up spells slots to supplement fighting. But it has a very limited number of spells slots. Between The swift/immediate actions of things like spell shield and arcane accuracy, and Spell combat, in 1 surprise round and 5 rounds of combat and a couple buffs cast pre-combat I had exhausted all but a couple of my 1st level spell slots in one fight with an 8th level character. I dont think the abilities are too powerful or not powerful enough, but with all of them using the Magus' spells for fuel, he runs out quick. Unlike the bard, or the inquisitor (other 6 level casters) who supplement combat with not just spells but other resources (bane, songs etc) the magus is VERY reliant on it's spells slots.

The character had some trouble hitting when he wasnt using spell accuracy but I think part of that comes from the elite array and NPC gear. A player with 20point buy and level appropriate wealth for a pc probably would have had a couple more points higher to hit.

Overall I like it. I am really pleased with spell combat and the feel of it in general. The starting penalty for spell combat (-4) is a little steep for a class that doesn't have a huge to hit to start, and maybe allowing a feat in ultimate magic to mitigate it (possibly instead the improved and greater varieties) like two weapon fighting does may be a good idea. Also with combat casting, the dc for the concentration check wasn't too hard, but he did still fail it on 2 of 5 attempts.

So there has been a fair amount of discussion of things that were ill recieved in the new APG, and I though I was/am among those who found things we didnt like, there is still loads of good stuff in this book. I am floored by the quality, and really pleased by whats in here.

So, what do you like the most?

For me, though its not an easy choice, I have to choose the feats, all of them. I have never seen such concentrated awesome before in my life. I was reading through it yesterday seeing if there was anything interesting there for the 3 characters im currently playing of for the NPCs in the game I'm running. And well, I wanted to use almost all of them. I cant remember ever looking through any product and just wanting to use almost every single feat in some form or another. I really look forward to getting to use them and the rest of the book.

Ok so rather then continue to derail another thread, I thought I might take this out. I want to devote this thread to a numerical comparison of published monsters vs pcs with and without 'level appropriate' gear that is mostly made up of the big six. We've talked this to death, I'd like to actually look at numbers here.

I think we can all agree that at the lowest levels it doesnt matter at all (how much bix six gear is a level 3 character going to have anyway?). So points of comparison: Level 6, level 10, level 14, level 18.

For the purposes of this encounter I'd like to look at single monstry type encounters. Namely 2 monsters of CR party level -1, and 4 monsters of level - 3. Never do it vs a single monster, pick several (I like 5 but feel free to deviate) for the CR, and average their saves, AC, CMD/CMB, attack bonuses, and the DC's for their offensive abilities (things like a dragons breath weapon, a vampires dominate etc).

I'd like to look at 15 and 20 point buy characters.

My first example cut from another thread:

Human wizard 15 point buy - no big six items.

Str: 10 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 16 (+2 racial)18 Wis 10 Cha 8

Presumably at 4 and 8 the wizard increased his int. Bringing it to 20 natural.

His spell DCs are:
level 5 - 20
level 4 - 19
level 3 - 18
level 2 - 17
level 1 - 16

His saves are
Fort +4 Ref +5 Will + 7

Lets look at some of the CR 9 monster's saves and abilities shall we?

Greater Air elemental:
Fort: +12, Ref +18, Will +6
wirlwind: DC 23

Young Blue Dragon:
Fort: +10 Ref +8 Will +8
Breath Weapon: DC 18

Greater Fire Elemental
Fort +12 Ref +16 will +6
Burn: DC 20

Vampire: Fort +13 Ref +11 Will +12
Dominate: DC 22
Energy Drain DC 22
Fireball DC 21
Web DC 20
(yes i am leaving out 1st level spells as I think given their tendancy to be BBEGs and not minions vampires generally are not forced down to their lower level spell slots for offense.)

T-Rex
Fort +15 Ref +12 Will +10

All these monsters have an average strong save of:
14.4
Moderate Save of
11.2
Weak save of
8.2

The average of their offensive abilities is 20.85

That unmodified wizard has a best DC of 20. For their average strong save these monsters need an average of 6 or better to get it. 9 or better to get it with their middle save and 12 or better with their weak save. That means on their best spell slots vs the monster's weakest saves the wizard still has a 45% chance of failure. Let alone against strong saves where they have a whoping, 75% chance of failure. And this is their limited top spell slots.

Now lets look at those offensive abilities from the monsters shall we?
The wizard needs to get a score of 21 or better (with an average dc of 20.85) to save against them.

For fort thats a roll of 17 or higher. For Ref that is 16 or higher on the die. For their best save, will, 14 or higher. Mr Big Six lacking wizard is in trouble here if you ask me.

Now you can up the point buy to 20, and things will edge a little bit in the wizards favor, but he probably still only has a 20 or 21 int (buying a straight 18 in pathfinder point buy is pretty crippling if you ask me). His saves might improve a little if he puts his points into wis, dex or con, but you are talking 1 or 2 here. He is still crazy outgunned by the monster abilities and their saves.

I think each of these monsters assume that Mr. Wizard has some stat improving and save boosting items.

Given the recent third printing of the core rulebook and the updates to the bestiary I thought I might bring this up to see if how others feel.

I personally dont like the idea of incorparating errata directly into printed or pdf materials. I expect it can lead to alot of confusion as people can potentially have different words in their rulebooks. Its one thing if they are exclusively clarifications, or re-wordings. But some of them, like the errata of the paladin's smite are deliberate changes. A player at my table with a new copy of the rulebook will have different rules then the rulebook I bought when pfrpg first came out.

I dont have a problem with Paizo creating errata, and in fact I welcome it. But I would rather see it kept separate in an additional document so people know where the difference is coming from. If it is inline in the book itself its impossible to know errata from original rules.

I think this will cause 2 sets of problems in regards to the table. First is potential arguments that can arise from 2 people having different rules in their hands that have the same covers. If everyone is conciously aware of the errata is wont be a problem, but not everyone follows such things closely, and people forget. This can easily lead to disagreements.

The second potential problem I see is what I call the windows update effect. I know at least a dozen people who would never buy a new version of a windows OS untill the first service pack is released to fix the initial bugs. The idea that customers will get a 'better' product if they wait and buy a later copy of the rulebook cannot be good for initial sales. I own 2 copies of the core rules, I may buy a copy of this latest printing, but others are not going to buy more then one copy of a rulebook, this essentially encourages them to wait many months in the hope that an additional printing will occur.

So, I've been kicking around the idea of creating a campaign around the world in the dark tower series by Stephen King. I love the setting, technology, magic, old world and new mixed together. It is just facinating. So I've decided while I'm running my current game which is pretty much set, I will work on that. The beggining of that is ofcourse a gunslinger class. I've decided to make it a base class because basically, I dont like prestige classes, but I definately thought about it. This is a very rough draft so feel free to point out errors or inconcistencies.

The Gunslinger
I do not aim with my hand;
He who aims with his hand has forgotten the face of his father.
I aim with my eye.
I do not shoot with my hand;
He who shoots with his hand has forgotten the face of his father.
I shoot with my mind.
I do not kill with my gun;
He who kills with his gun has forgotten the face of his father.
I kill with my heart.
Remember the face of your father. The gunslinger is a class of noble warriors. Descendants of those who fought along side Arthur Eld, gunslingers are charged with defending Gilead and all members of the Affiliation. Trained since birth, they are all warriors through and through. When they come of age they are tested in combat against their trainer, a challenge not all succeed in. Those that fail are exiled in disgrace. Those who succeed receive their guns and become gunslingers, blessed by Ka, and destined for great things.

Role: A gunslinger is primarily a ranged combatant but he can also provide support through his skills and leadership abilities.

Alignments: Any Lawful

Hit Die: D10

Class Skills: Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Knowledge dungeoneering, engineering, History, Local, Nobility, Perception, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Survival, Stealth, Swim

Skills 4 + int per level

BAB: Full
Saves: Fort Strong, Ref Strong, Will Weak

1. Guns of your Father 1d6, Quick on the Draw, The will of Ka
2. Dual Gun fighting
3. Gunslinger Talent
4. Ka-tet, bonus feat
5. Gunslinger Talent
6. Dual Gun fighting (improved)
7. Gunslinger Talent
8. Guns of your Father 1d8, bonus feat
9. Gunslinger Talent
10. Dual Gun fighting (greater)
11. Improved Gunslinger Talent
12. Commanding Presence, bonus feat
13. Gunslinger Talent
14. Pay No Heed 1/day
15. Gunslinger Talent
16. Guns of your Father 1d10, bonus feat
17. Gunslinger Talent
18. Pay No Heed Wis/day.
19. Gunslinger Talent
20. Dihn, bonus feat

Class Features:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency. Gunslingers are proficient with all simple weapons and all firearms. They are not proficient with any armor or shields. When wearing armor, or using a shield they lose the AC bonus granted by the Will of Ka ability.

Guns of your Father: At first level a gunslinger receives a set of revolvers that are to be his guns. These have been passed down along his family line for as long as it has existed. These weapons count as masterwork revolvers that are one handed weapons and deal 1d6 damage and hold 6 shots each. They require a full round action to reload one revolver. At level 8 the gunslinger’s status has improved. They receive a new set of guns that come from a retired or deceased elder member of their family line. These weapons are masterwork and have at least a +1 enhancement. At level 16 the gunslinger is a leader among leaders. His status is such that he receives a set of guns dating back to the time of Arthur Eld himself (the metal does at least). These guns do 1d10 damage and have at least a +3 enhancement bonus on them.

The Will of Ka: When unarmored, the gunslinger adds his Wisdom bonus (if any) to his AC and his CMD. In addition, a gunslinger gains a +1 bonus to AC and CMD at 4th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every four monk levels thereafter, up to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.

Quick on the Draw: A gunslinger is unmatched in quickness in a fight. At first level a gunslinger gains the benefit to draw his weapons lightning fast. They gain the benefits of the feats quickdraw and improved initiative.

Dual Gun fighting: A gunslinger is skilled at fighting with both his guns. At second level he gains the benefit of the two weapon fighting feat. In addition his guns count as light weapons for the purposes of the two weapon fighting penalties. At 6th level they gain the benefit of the improved two weapon fighting feat, and at 10th level they gain the greater weapon fighting feat.

Gunslinger Talent. At 3rd level and every second level there after the gunslinger may choose one of the following gunslinger talents. Unless otherwise noted any single talent can only be taken once:

Bolster Ally: A gunslinger can cause an ally to rise above himself. As a standard action a gunslinger can give an ally a bonus to attack rolls, skill checks and saves for a number of rounds Equal to his gunslinger level. This bonus is equal to the gunslinger’s level/5 (minimum 1). He can use this ability a number of times equal to 3+his wisdom modifier.

I aim with my Eye: A gunslinger is both accurate and deadly with his guns. He gains the benefit of the Precise Shot Feat.

I Shoot with my Mind: A gunslinger is in a state of peace even in the violence of a gunfight. A gunslinger with this ability may add his wisdom modifier to his attack roll for a single shot fired from his guns. He may do this a number of times per day equal to his gunslinger level.

Finger Trick: A gunslinger is taught a trick that allows him to reload his gun rapidly and efficiently. A gunslinger with this talent may reload his gun as a swift action and does not require a free hand to do so.

Double Finger Trick:
A gunslinger has greatly improved at the finger trick. He can reload both his guns with a single swift action.
Prerequisite: BAB +6, Finger Trick

Touched: A gunslinger who posses The Touch has powers beyond those of normal men. He gains the use of a single 1st level spell. This spell must be an arcane spell chose from the wizard spell list, and of the Schools, Divination, Enchantment, or Illusion. The gunslinger can use this spell 3 times per day, and his casting stat for the purpose of this spell is wisdom. His caster level for this ability is equal to his gunslinger level.

Prerequisite: 11 wisdom

Improved Touch: A truly exceptional gunslinger has greater power among the arcane. This gunslinger may select a second wizard spell of 1st level, and one of 2nd level. Each must still be within the Divination, Enchantment, or Illusion skills and can be cast 3 times per day per level of spell (so the 2 1st level spells can be cast a total of 3 times per day, and the 2nd level spell can be cast 3 times per day. His caster level for this ability is equal to his gunslinger level.

Prerequisite: 12 wisdom, Touched

Combat Training: A gunslinger may choose and combat feat that he meets the prerequisites for.

Pistol Whip: The gunslinger is adept at using his guns as a melee weapon. A gunslinger using this feat may use his gun to make a melee attack at no penalty. The damage die is one size smaller then the gun is normally, and all modifiers that normally apply to hit and damage (such as enhancements on the weapon, or weapon focus) apply to the pistol whip.

Ka-Tet: At 4th level a gunslinger forms a bond with a group of people he is close to. This can be fellow gunslingers, traveling companions, family or any other cohesive group. He is always aware of their emotional state regardless of distance (this includes across plains) and knows if they sustain any serious injury. They too are aware of his emotional state. If a Ka-Tet is formed among only gunslingers with this ability, then they are all aware of each member of this Ka-Tet in this way.

Bonus Feat: At 4th level and every 4th level there after the gunslinger may choose a bonus feat from the following list: Deadly aim, vital strike, improved vital strike, Weapon focus (firearms), Alertness, Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, Ride by Attack, Iron Will, Improved Iron will, Lighting Reflexes, Improved Lighting Reflexes, Great Fortitude, Improved Great Fortitude, Die hard, Toughness.

Improved Gunslinger Talents: At 11th level and every second level there after the gunslinger may choose either one of the gunslinger talents presented above or an improved gunslinger talent from those that follow:

Greater Touch: A gunslinger with this ability has mastered the touch. In addition to learning an additional 1st and 2nd level wizard spell, the Gunslinger gains a 3rd level spell. Each of these spells can be cast up to 3 times per day per level of spell and must be from the divination, enchantment or Illusion schools.

I kill with my heart: A gunslinger does not simply kill, when he fires his gun, his mind body and soul are focused on killing the target. Whenever a gunslinger fires only a single shot in a round he adds his wisdom bonus to the damage dealt.

Improved Quickdraw: A gunslinger is never caught unaware. Whenever the gunslinger is involved in a surprise round he may draw his weapon and fire regardless of whether or not he was surprised.

Wall of Lead: A gunslinger can shoot almost anything out of the sky. Any ranged attack that is made against the gunslinger that is not made by a firearm, such as a bow, crossbow, grenade, thrown weapon or even a rocket, allows the to gunslinger make an attack roll against the projectile. This counts as an attack of opportunity. If the gunslinger’s attack roll matches or exceeds the roll used to make the initial attack he successfully shoots the projectile out of the sky and it is destroyed harmlessly.

Improved Rapid Shot: A gunslinger is trained to fire fast and accurately. When using the rapid shot feat the gunslinger does not take a -2 penalty to his attack rolls.

Prerequisite: Rapidshot, BAB 15.

Commanding Presence: The gunslinger is a leader among leaders. His presence calms even the most tense nerves. All allies that can see and hear the gunslinger get a morale bonus to will saves vs Mind Effects equal to his wisdom modifier.

Pay No Heed: At 14th level gunslinger has the ability to shake off grievous wounds. Once per day he may gain temporary hit points equal to his gunslinger level. At 18th level he may do this a number of times equal to his wisdom modifier (minimum 1)

Dihn: The gunslinger has become the commander of a Keep or City. He gains the benefit of the leadership feat, but his cohort must be another gunslinger. His followers are the guards and other officers of his keep or city.

So the other day I was doing a little thinking about character's I've played. How they have evolved and whatnot, how my playstyle has changed.

All that nostalgia got me thinking. If you could bring back any one character from your gamming past to your next pathfinder game, who would it be and why? [dont worry about rule restrictions, assume anything you needed to be allowed into the game to make the character happen is allowed in this hypothetical game]

For me It would be the character that is my namesake. He was the first 3.0 character I ever played. A Elf sorceror/mindbender named Kolokotroni. Though I played a signficant amount of AD&D before I picked up 3.0, I feel that this was when I truly got 'into' dnd. This character captured my imagination, and represented the first time I played in a long standing (several years) campaign. I enjoyed his ego, and his constant manipulation of just about everyone he interacted with (i mean whats the point of being a mindbender if you dont mess with people right?). There is something special about convincing an NPC to pay you for the use of their own pants.

I did the second session of a playtest tonight. It was the second half of running through the Carrion Hill Module.

The party is level 5 and consists of:
Half Orc Barbarian
Elf Conjuration Wizard
Human Paladin who was sword and shield.
Human Inquisitor (ranged combat focused)
Gnome Summoner with a biped eidolon named tiny (it is medium sized)

We got through several encounters tonight including the final one in the climax

This will contain details of the module, please dont read on if you dont wish that revealed. I made changes to my liking in the adventure, but there are still plot points that are revealed.

My Impressions are that I really like the inquisitor. Even when he was buffed with divine favor, using judgment and bane, he still wasn't the biggest damage dealer, though perhaps that was because he was using a bow. Not really sure there, but seems to me the balance is good on the class.

Again the summoner did well, but was not overpowering. This time things did slow down a little though since he summoned something he wasnt completely prepared for or overly familiar with(a crocodile). Things till went pretty well, and I think both the paladin and especially the barbarian still got to shine even with the eidolon there. If the summoner buffed the eidolon it was almost as good as the barbarian but with a better AC. If the summoner spent time summoning instead, the eidolon was not as good at dealing damage or taking his as either the paladin or barbarian. And though obviously the summons help, they were not game changers.

Philosopher’s Stone: The alchemist learns how to create
a philosopher’s stone, and can do so once per month at no
cost. Creating a philosopher’s stone takes 1 day of work.

Say what now? Am I going to be turning base metals into gold? Cuz I somehow see this angering my dm even at level 20. Is this going to be a magic item in the APG?

On Monday I ran a playtest using a module called Carrion Hill. I normally dont run modules, but I thought something that wasnt my own homebrew stuff would eliminate at least some of the variables involved in a playtest.

The party Consisted of:
A gnome summoner with a Medium Biped Eidolon named tiny.
A gnome oracle with the wave foci
A Human Paladin
A Half Orc Barbarian
An Elf Conjuration Specialist wizard.

We got through 2 encounters in the module, since it was a short session.

First Encounter I modified a little putting in some extra Dark Creepers for the 5th party member, there were 5 of them. Here It was the barbarian who shined, killing 2 a round with cleave and effectively resisting their death throws ability. The Eidolon (Tiny) did ok but got poisoned twice. The summoner himself didnt do a whole lot in the encounter. The paladin and wizard kind of hung back as it seemed the barbarian could have soloed the encounter.

The second encounter with the ghoul, I doubled up on the ghoul for the extra person (I know it raised the encounter by 2 instead of 1 but I felt they could handle it and they did).

Here the paladin shone brightly nearly one shotting one of the ghouls with a crit smite and power attack. The Oracle ended up getting paralyzed trying to get into position and the barbarian dragged him to safety. One on one the eidolon was not a match for the ghoul rogue, he initially had help from the barbarian, but he had to get the paralyzed oracle out. However in the 3rd round the summoner got off his summon (1 round moving into position and 1 to cast the summon) bringing 3 giant spiders onto the field. Together, along with a little help from the wizard, they managed to bring down the second ghoul.

Overall I am still underwhelmed by the oracle. They dont make particularly good healers, or casters. The battle oracle is pretty solid but thats about it. The summoner was on the strong side, but didnt out shine either the barbarian or the paladin when they were doing their thing. And even with 3 spiders out he managed to get through his turn in an amount of time not much more then the wizard did when he was picking a spell. He did however have the stats ready (including augment summoning) ahead of time which I am sure helped.

Given the change that has been made to natural attacks in pathfinder, does anyone else think the multi attack feature of animal companions and now eidolons needs to be reworded. It used to make sense in 3.5, if you had 3 natural weapons one or two were secondary attacks. If you didnt you got the iterative attack at -5. In pathfinders it is distinctly possible to have 3 or more natural attacks and none of them be secondary. A bite and 2 claws for instance which is not an uncommon setup gains nothing from the multiattack feature.

I am not sure if its neccessary, but it seems like its a holdover from 3.5 that just got missed.

This looks interesting, I am curious, what level party is this designed for?

Figured I might get this one started.

First one i have is, I am looking at the summoner's Eidolons evolution list, and it says that claws secondary attacks in the evolution description. Does that mean that the bipedal eidolon only has secondary attacks to start?

Ok first off I apologize for yet another thread on this. I didnt want to, and was hoping to get a few responses to posting it in the generic thread. I didnt, and the thread has more or less moved on to more general discussions. Thats said I do want to use this in my home game so I would like some opinions on the class as I have written it. I forget who recommended Spellthane for the name, but I like it and thanks.

The Spellthane

Role: The Spellthane’s focus is using magic to bring the fight to the enemy. Their combat prowess is less then that of dedicated combatants, but when they combine that with their arcane talents they can be a match for most any foe.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d8.
Class Skills
The Spellthane class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Arcana) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str), and Use Magic Device (Cha)

Skill Ranks per Level: 2 + Int modifier.

BAB: Average (3/4)
Saves: Good Fort, Ref Poor, Good Will

1. Weapon Bond, Weapon Channeling, Armored Casting (Light Armor), Cantrips
2. Spell Channel
3. Weapon Channel (Move 1/day)
4.
5. Armored Casting (Light Shields)
6. Weapon Channel (Move 2/day
7.
8. Defensive Spell Channel
9. Weapon Channel (Move 3/day)
10.
11. Armored Casting (Medium Armor)
12. Weapon Channel (Move 4/day)
13.
14. Armored Casting (Heavy Shields)
15. Spell Channeling (Move 5/day)
16.
17. Weapon Channel (2 spells)
18. Mass Spell Channel
19. (Armored Casting Heavy Armor)
20. Weapon Channel (full attack)

Weapon and armor Profficiencies: Spellthanes are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all types of armor (heavy, medium, and light), and with shields (except tower shields).

Spells: A Spellthane can cast arcane spells drawn from the Spellthane Spell List. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time. To learn or cast a spell the Spellthane must have an intelligence score equal to at least 10+the level of the spell. The Difficulty for the saving throw of the spell is 10+the spell level + the Spellthane’s intelligence modified.

Like other spell casters the Spellthane can only cast a certain number of spells of each level per day. This is the same as that on the Bard’s spell table. In addition he receives bonus spells for a high charisma score if applicable.

The Spellthane’s selection spells is extrememly limited. They begin play knowing 4 level 0 spells and 2 first level spells of their choices. At each new level they gain new spells based on the bard’s spells known table.
Upon reaching 5th level, and at every third Spellthane level after that (8th, 11th, and so on), a bard can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the bard “loses” the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell's level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least one level lower than the highest-level Spellthane spell the bard can cast. A Spellthane may swap only a single spell at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.
A Spellthane need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his allotment of spells per day for the spell's level.

Cantrips: A Spellthane can learn a number of cantrips or 0-level spells as noted in the Bard Spells known table. These spells are cast like any other spell but they do not consume any spell slots and may be used again.

Weapon Bond (Ex):
A Spellthane forms a bond with his weapon. Though bladed weapons are common, any weapon that the Spellthane is proficient with can be bonded with. The Spellthane beings play with this weapon which is always of masterwork quality. It is not made of any special material. If the Spellthane attempts to cast a spell without holding his bonded weapon he must make a concentration check or lose the spell. The DC for this check is 20+ the spells level. A bonded weapon can be used once per day to cast any one spell the Spellthane knows and is capable of casting. This spell is treated like any other spell cast by the wizard, including casting time, duration, and other effects dependent on the wizard's level. This spell cannot be modified by metamagic feats or other abilities. This spell can be used along with the Spell Channel Ability.

A Spellthane can add additional magic abilities to his bonded weapon as if he has the required item creation feats and if he meets the level prerequisites of the feat. For example, a Spellthane with a bonded dagger must be at least 5th level to add magic abilities to the dagger (see the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat in Feats). The magic properties of a bonded weapon, including any magic abilities added to the weapon, only function for the Spellthane who owns it. If a bonded weapon's owner dies, or the item is replaced, the object reverts to being an ordinary masterwork item of the appropriate type.

If a bonded weapon is damaged, it is restored to full hit points the next time the Spellthane prepares his spells. If the weapon is lost or destroyed, it can be replaced after 1 day in a special ritual that costs 200 gp per Spellthane level plus the cost of the masterwork item. This ritual takes 8 hours to complete. Weapons replaced in this way do not possess any of the additional enchantments of the previous bonded item. A Spellthane can designate an existing magic weapon as his bonded weapon. This functions in the same way as replacing a lost or destroyed weapon except that the new magic weapon retains its abilities while gaining the benefits and drawbacks of becoming a bonded item.

Armored Casting (Ex):
At first level the Spellthane does not suffer arcane spell failure for light armor. At 5th level this also includes light shields. When wielding a light shield the Spellthane is considered to have a hand free for somatic components of spells. At 11th level this expands to include medium armor. At 14th level this also includes heavy shields, and the Spellthane is considered to have a hand free for somatic components when wielding a heavy shield. At 19th level the Spellthane no longer suffers arcane spell failure for Heavy armor.

Weapon Channel(Su): The Spellthane is able to store a spell in their weapon. This involves casting the spell as normal but the spell does not take affect. It instead takes affect on the next successful hit delivered with their bonded weapon. Touch and ranged touch spells count as having hit, saves apply as normal. Channeled spells are still subject to spell resistance were applicable. If the spell has multiple targets, it only affects the subject struck by the attack. If the effect is an area effect the area must include the subject struck by the attack as the center or point of origin for the effect. Area effect spells such as this exclude the Spellthane’s square from their effects. At 3rd level the Spellthane can do this with a spell that normally takes a standard action as a move action once per day. At 6th, 9th, 12th and 15th level he can do this an additional time per day.

At 17th level the Spellthane can store 2 spells in his weapon, though still on separate actions. On his next two successful hits with his weapon he decides which spell is used. Despite being able to have 2 spells stored at the same time, the Spellthane can only ever deliver a single spell with each attack.

At 20th level Spellthane has reached the peak of combining swordplay with arcane arts. Every time the Spellthane takes a full attack action he may channel a single spell he could normally cast as a standard action. The Spellthane may never use this ability in the same round he expends a stored spell from his weapon.

Spell Channel(Su):
At 2nd level the Spellthane can sacrifice arcane energy to increase his combat prowess. As a swift action the Spellthane can sacrifice any unused spell slot for a temporary bonus. This bonus applies to either attack or damage at the Spellthane’s choice and is equal to the level of the sacrificed slot. This bonus lasts for rounds equal to the Spellthane’s intelligence modifier (minimum 1).

Defensive spell channel(Su):
At 8th level the Spellthane is able to channel arcane energies to protect himself. The Spellthane as a move action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity may sacrifice an unused spell slot to grant him damage reduction equal to the level of the slot. This damage reduction lasts for a number of rounds equal to the Spellthanes intelligence modifier (minimum 1). For instance if a Spellthane with a 16 intelligence were to sacrifice a 3rd level spell slot he would gain DR 3/- for 3 rounds.

Mass Spell channel(Su):
At 18th level the Spellthane can direct his offensive arcane abilities to some of his allies. This ability functions the same as the spell channeling ability (but not defensive spell channel) except it requires a standard action and it can be applied to a number of targets within 30 feet of the Spellthane equal to his intelligence modifier (minimum 1). The Spellthane must include himself as one of the targets of this ability.

Spell list

0
Resistance
Acid Splash
Detect Magic
Read Magic
Light
Ray of Frost
Bleed
Disrupt Undead
Touch of Fatigue
Prestidigitation

1
Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law
Shield
Mage Armor
Mount
Obscuring Mist
True Strike
Burning Hands
Magic Missile
Shocking Grasp
Color Spray
Cause Fear
Ray of Enfeeblement
Enlarge Person
Expeditious Retreat
Jump
Magic Weapon
Reduce Person
Inflict Light Wounds

2
Protection From Arrows
Resist Energy
Acid Arrow
Web
Blur
Blindness Deafness
False Life
Scare
Bears Endurance
Bulls Strength
Cats Grace
Foxs Cunning
Inflict Moderate Wounds

3
Dispell Magic
Magic Circle against Chaos/Evil/Good/Law
Phantom Steed
Heroism
Rage
Ray of Exhaustion
Vampiric Touch
Fly
Haste
Magic Weapon Greater
Slow
Inflict Serious Wounds

4
Stoneskin
Black Tentacles
Dimension Door
Crushing Despair
Fire Shield
Bestow Curse
Contagion
Enervation
Fear
Inflict Critical Wounds

5
Dismissal
Cone of Cold
Blight
Waves of Fatigue
Baleful Polymorph
Overland Flight
Heroism Greater

6
Antimagic Field
Chain Lighting
Acid Fog
Freezing Sphere
Eyebite
Bears Endurance Mass
Bulls Strength Mass
Cats Grace Mass
Foxs Cunning Mass
Disintegrate
Flesh to stone
Stone to flesh

So I have stated in other theads that I think there is a problem with a divine spontaneous caster like the oracle, in that the cleric spell list does not have the 'impact' spells that appear on the wiz/sorc list that a sorceror can choose so that he can get good bang for his buck with his limited range of spells. The cleric makes up for this knowing ALL his spells and a host of other abilities.

The oracle plays like a sorceror with a much weaker spell list. So what I was thinking is what if at every odd level from 3 on, the oracle could learn 1 spell as if it was one level lower then it is. So at level 3, an oracle could choose to learn a level 2 spell and cast it as a level 1. At level 5 an oracle could do the same, or learn a level 3 spell and cast it at level 2. This is a little extra book keeping but its not much more then you have to do anyway with a caster. And that way the oracle doesnt have both the slower spell progression of spontaneous casters and the weaker spell list of clerics.

Thoughts?

After giving the cavlier oaths a run through I think they need a fair amount of work. I think they need to be standardized. They are too all over the place and vary too much in their power and difficulty to attain.

Oath of chastity can as someone brought up be lost due to combat with the opposite sex, and provides a very specific bonus (save bonus vs charm spells).

Oath of Protection is very difficult to pull off as part of an adventuring party, for a good bonus but seems to be an NPC bodyguard only bonus. PC's just wont get this bonus.

Oath of Loyalty is really easy to achieve as is oath of greed, but both are very specific bonuses as well that will only be useful sometimes.

Oath of vengeance is probably the hands down best as it is a bonus to attack rolls, and is relatively easy to attain. Im on a mission to stop goblin raiders oath of vengeance of goblins, i'll have the bonus half way through the first encounter of the day.

I would like these bonuses and challenges to be standardized in bonus and in attainability, rather then trying a juggling act of balancing how hard they are to attain, how long they last and how good the bonus is. It wont be as good flavorwise but it will do alot for actually tracking and using them in the game.

What does everyone else think?

So a couple members of my group and I did a playtest of the new classes.

We just ran a bunch of encounters with the new classes and 2 standard classes. We ran a bunch of encounters at level 1, 3 and 6

The party was 1 oracle with the bone focus, 1 cavalier of the dragon order, a paladin, and a monk.

First off a question from the guy who ran the oracle, what action is it to conjure armor of bones? It isnt listed, we ruled swift for the moment but it will need to be cleared up I think.

Also, what kind of action is it to take an oath? Is a long speech required (several rounds)? Is a simple statement enough? This matters for thinks like vengeance and justice (if an oath is not already active).

The haunted curse seems a little light on the penalty part compared to say clouded vision. I mean how often does a primary caster have to worry about dropping something? It does however provide amusing role play. But i think the disadvantage as written can only really apply through creative dming, which probably isn't a good way to handle it.

First encounter: level 1 party

4 goblins. This was a pretty easy fight, after all they are goblins. My Cavalier was able to get the Vengeance oath pretty quickly, and did rather well. It was an outdoor encounter, and I was able to ride in on the goblins fast. My horse was able to also take out a gobbo when it got close enough. The oracle took out one with an inflict light wounds (he was definately going for the darker side of the bone focus, thats for sure).

Second Encounter: level 1 party
1 Ogre.

So this fight we decided was indoors, and I was without my mount. Here I expected, and saw the cavaleer get outshone by the paladin, after all single big bads are what they do, but I was able to get in my Dragon Order Bonus at all. What we realized here was the oracle does not make a good primary healer. He cant really afford to take too many cure spells, or risk being impotent in other areas, and of course lacks the healing capacity of things like channel and spontaneously cast cures. I'd say its better then the druid in the capacity, but you will need aditional healing in a typical party.

Third encoutner: level 3 party 2 ogres and 3 goblins.
This was another indoor encounter, and I was again without my mount. I again seemed unable to get my bonus from challenge for order of the dragon since the ogre hit me before i could get in on him. The oracle did ok, but I think the player needed better spell selection, I think you have to take alot of care with oracle spells as without the flexibility of the prepared casters, you have to make sure you get alot of impact from what you pick. More so then with a sorc, because of the difference in the kind of spells.

Fourth encounter: level 6 party, 3 grizzly bears.
Here the cavalier really shown. It was outdoors, I had the mount and I was able to get in a whole bunch of ride by attacks using a lance where the bears (with out reach) couldnt hit be back. With vital strike and power attack i put on some serious hurt, and made it difficult with using my mounts full move for the bears to get me back. It also helped that the paladin wasnt doing as much since he couldnt smit.

Final encounter. young red dragon.

This was our big fight. Once again the oracle proved he wasnt a primary healer. I actually ended up using the cavalier to pour a potion down the paladins throat to get him up instead. Here the cavalier couldnt really use his mount to great effect because the dragon was much more mobile. And the oracle couldnt do alot because his spells were being saved against, or required touch(caster getting close to a dragon is a poor idea most of the time). The paladin and monk did most of the heavy lifting here.

Impressions. I think the mechanic for the order of the dragon needs to be changed. I did not get a single challenge bonus in all 5 encounters, either they hit me, or there was another ally there or what have you. It really becomes pretty frustrating. I also feel that with the mount the cavalier performs pretty well compared to the other classes, but in situations where he cant really use it, he significanlty under performes. The mount in and of itself can be a pretty good combatant, but again its pretty situational, I was thinking maybe next time i might try a small sized cavalier, because a medium mount might not have size issues, but that isnt a great answer. I also think that getting the oath bonuses is really complicated. Often by the time you get it, it really doens't apply anymore and you should probably start on a new one. The protection oath for instance seems like a dont bother for me, unless its an npc protecting a noble or something.

The oracle I love from a role play perspective, but I am underwhelmed from the mechanical angle. I think that there are far less impact spells especially at low levels for the cleric list, where the lack of flexibility and choice really hurts the oracle more then the sorc. I think the class needs a little bit of a push. Perhaps something like the sorc and wizards first level abilities where they have something they can do 3+charisma times per day. I mean even if they take a revelation like fire breath you can do it so infrequently your really left out at low levels. And the class doesnt have the ability of the cleric in that they can usually get in some combat at low levels, or higher levels with buffs, since they probably wont carry the requisite buffs, and have less armor, and lower babs.

This was being discussed in another thread but I thought perhaps to end the threadjack since I think this is a potentially interesting discussion.

My question to everyone is, how do you and your groups like to handle downtime? Do you include days, weeks, months or years between adventure arcs for pc's to do things like join/form organizations, persue political aspirations, open buisinesses, craft magical items, research spells etc?

I personally find it strange if there isnt a significant amount of such downtime. As someone said in another thread, if there is constant action, it starts to be a video game. Believable characters do not adventure every day of their lives, and they do things other then adventure. I also like it when players tie themselves to the setting. If players are able to hold a political office, start a buisiness, join/create an organization. For one it puts some use into the proffession skills, another it provides lots of great future plot hooks. The fighters new apprentice is kidnapped, the bard's political opponent is the BBEG, Or the clerics new organization is waging a campaign against the undead in region x.

The downtime also applies heavily to spellcasters, particularly the wizard, in allowing for the crafting of magic items, and the researching of new spells.

In addition I feel a charcter's career should be over a lifetime, if there isn't significant downtime, every character would hit epic levels in their 20's.

What are everyone's thoughts on the matter?

I have two questions about the disciple bite attack. First off it does not list the damage die in the description of dragon bite on page 382. What die is it? D4? Or is it the same die as your claw attack?

Second the description indicates the attack is made at your full base attack, does that mean it does not take the normal -5 penalty for attacking with a secondary natural weapon? My assumption is it should take the -5, but when a similar ability is described under barbarian animal fury it specifically says the attack is made at -5 base attack.