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Organized Play Member. 5,464 posts (6,280 including aliases). 44 reviews. 1 list. 1 wishlist. 2 Organized Play characters. 14 aliases.


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I think sometimes the reluctance of players to learn a new system is predicated on the assumption that a new system will require the same level of investment to learn that d20 games generally require.

I have seen people pick up pretty much most of the ins and outs of Savage Worlds at the table, the first time they play, without ever having looked at a rulebook.


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baron arem heshvaun wrote:

Like taxi cabs in the rain in New York, you can never get a Grognard when you need one.

:: casts Summon Knight Errant JR ::

Man, those summoning spells can work slowly at times . . .

Spoiler:
Is it bad the first time in a long time that I started to get Realms ideas circulating was when I was reading through the 13th Age Beta rules?


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I don't like to ascribe motives or to assume that someone is not being forthright when they say something. I have no problem believing that the original intent might have been for this to work as it has been clarified to work.

However, it is also clear that even "official" sources were confused and not on board with the new interpretation, as it has been noted that the wording of various rules and the builds of various NPCs strongly seem to imply the less stringent interpretation.

I don't think it does anyone any good to try and vote on if this was or wasn't original intent. All that does is contravene any good will in the situation and make discussions with the staff adversarial in tone.

What I will say is that, again, it would be nice for people across the board, on both sides of the interpretation, and in official places, to recognize that the wording was problematic at least for a goodly number of people reading the rules, and to not assume that there is any deficiency of character or proficiency involved in the dissenting interpretation.

Let's just get a very clear and comprehensive ruling that takes into account the archetypes and other rules elements that have come into the game since the core, and move on from there.


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kevin_video wrote:

Hey Gary. Got an issue with my group who basically are going to tell Thorn where to stick it.

** spoiler omitted **...

I'm not Gary, but I've got some thoughts.

Spoiler:
If they actually revere Asmodeus, then having nightmarish dreams and such that seem to be sendings showing them that Asmodeus wants them to follow Thorn's plan might work.

If that doesn't work, having their own private meeting with a fiend, some minor one, that tells them "there will be a time to prove if you are worthy to lead, but for now, the plan is tantamount."

That is, if you want to me more heavy handed, and for some groups, you may have to be.

On the other hand, you could let them try to enact their plan, and have it blow up in their face (unexpected reinforcements show up, silver dragons circling nearby), and then have Thorn show up and explain that only together, with a plan, can they avoid set backs like this.

Just some random thoughts. Gary's had some brilliant advice for all sorts of questions though, which just helps increase my faith in his ability to pull off this whole AP.


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Spurred on by some discussion about how I could "Golarionize" the adventure path, I've been playing with what I could piece together from the Talingarde timeline as well as merging it with Golarion's timeline.

I've also been giving some thought to where to place Talingarde, and who to replace with what.

My initial thoughts are to have Talingard a little further west from the Mordant Spire, and north west of Hermea. Since I'm not a geography master, especially as it relates to proper weather patterns and the like, I'm keeping things a little vague since I don't think the AP will call for more than a general idea of where the island is in relation to the rest of the world.

I'm thinking of Aath-Aryn and Maath-Aryn as corrupted names of ancient Azlanti ruins. The Ireans would be Azlanti/Ulfen/Elven bloodline human tribes, with the half-elves that bred true being the more "civilized" clans that eventually had the main claim to nobility.

Being a little closer to Arcadia, I'm thinking just knowing that some Erutaki having found their way to Talingarde isn't too much of a stretch in the setting, as well as the obvious Ulfen sailors and the like.

I'm picturing the Irean loosing power when the Chelaxians came to settle the island.

Aroden was the big primary faith, with Iomedae and Asmodeus also respected and worshiped. Originally I thought that Sarenrae, with her celestial nature and history of antagonism with Asmodeus, as well as being a sun goddess, would be the natural stand in for Mitra, but dogma-wise, Iomedae fits really well, and the more I started piecing the history together, it makes a lot more sense to substitute her, unless something changes later in the AP regarding Mitra's faith.

Here is the timeline I pieced together:

Spoiler:

2632 AR Elves return to Golarion, and some begin to explore lost elven ruins on the isles eventually known as Talingarde

Elves intermingle with Ulfen and Azlanti refugees. This bloodline, especially with much of the elven heritage strained, becomes the Irean tribesmen that dominate many of the isles.

Pockets of humans with stronger elven bloodlines become half-elven communities and are often seen as the nobility of various minor kingdoms or clans.

3832 AR Iomedae passes the Test of the Starstone and becomes a goddess. Her worship eventually rivals her master Aroden on Talingarde and surpasses the traditional worship of Asmodeus as the harsh enforcer of law.

4305 AR King Haliad III of Cheliax launches the Wars of Expansion to broaden the empire’s northern borders by claiming land in Molthune and Varisia. This struggle lasts more than a century and spans the reign of five Chelish monarchs, eventually becoming known as the Everwar.

4140 AR Chelaxian explorers claim Talingarde as an vassal state to Cheliax. With little support from Cheliax and a great deal of resistance from the native Iraen tribes, the nation is not stable for centuries. Many of the "noble" half-elven houses are brought into the Chelaxian fold.

4412 AR Accarius the IV conquers Casrhalla, founds Farholde

4512 AR Knights of the Alerion formed when a paladin of Iomedae is visited by Saint Lymirin, a priestess of Iomedae in life that now appears with the head and wings of an eagle.

4576 AR First Hellknight Order, the Order of the Rack, founded in Westcrown.

4606 AR Aroden dies, leaving the Empire of Cheliax without a divine mandate. Cheliax gradually slides toward civil war.

4608 AR Hellknights from Cheliax are granted Castle Brand to establish their native order of Hellknights, the Order of the Brand, to help maintain order in Talingarde.

4632 AR Wars of Succession in Talingarde, Markadian I becomes King of Talingarde, Order of the Brand wiped out

4634 AR Markadian I raids the Horn of Abbadon

4678 AR The Victor dies in Talingarde

4684 AR Markadian II is killed by his brother

4685 AR Markadian IV The Zealous, comes to power in Talingarde. Asmodean purges begin.

4696 AR Markadian IV dies, Markadian V comes to power

4712 AR Current Year

Now this sets Talingarde up as historically having its upheavals around the time that places like Andoran and Galt were breaking away, which makes sense, even though Talingarde is more like Korvosa than those other nations, in that it was largely independent and only paid lip service to Cheliax.

1/5

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Last year the rules of PFS changed to disallow animal companions to use weapons, and a FAQ post made it more difficult to control animal companions. Since that time there have been multiple references to a particular character that have been in error, and this continued misinformation casts a friend of mine in a poor light.

Concept

The original concept of the "Ape with a hammer" came about from several of us discussing what you could do with an animal companion after a session of Pathfinder that I was running (I believe that I might have been running Council of Thieves at the time for my group).

Many of us thought that an ape with a weapon would be an interesting concept. None of us thought it would be a game breaking concept that would ruin the game or anyone's fun.

The primary player that was interested in this option was a friend of mine (going by Brother Elias on these boards, when he still posted) who was rebuilding his character with the release of the Pathfinder RPG.

At the time he had a druid with a dog animal companion. The dog was incredibly dangerous in combat. I'd venture to say that the dog was a much bigger threat than the ape ever was.

Wanting to see if he could do it, he rebuilt his character as a cleric with the animal domain (cogent later in this discussion because people, when discussing animal companions and the need for handle animal, continually reference druids and rangers who have that as a class skill, when clerics with the animal domain do not).

Approval

The character was generally fleshed out and my friend posted the concept and the relevant details in the PFS general discussion. Josh Frost, who was, at the time, the campaign coordinator, approved the build, and even went so far as to include language in the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play to point out that an animal companion with the proper limbs could actually hold a weapon.

Again, this is important because the concept was not anything done in secret. It was something presented to the campaign coordinator and the general PFS public, and it got the green light.

Setbacks

Before the character could even be played, clarifications regarding the boon companion feat altered the build. My friend didn't complain, nor did he lobby for any changes. He simply changed his rebuild before he ever played the character and made adjustments.

This is important because my friend did not complain and lobby for changes whenever something did not go in his favor. For the most part, if the rules say what the rules say, he adapts accordingly, especially if he is allowed to, or has time to, change anything that might be dependent on the ruling.

Don't Listen to Developers if They Don't Have on Their Official Hats

The above became much more important as PFS wore on, but in the early stages of PFS, just after the release of the Pathfinder RPG, we didn't know that some developers, designers, and editors didn't have "official" weight behind their comments.

It was bluntly stated by a member of the Paizo staff that animal companions whose intelligence score goes above animal intelligence allows them to learn common and allows their master to issue them orders in common instead of making a handle animal check.

This was commonly mentioned on the boards, all over the place. It was an assumption by at least a visible portion of the community that posts on the boards. This assumption was never challenged by anyone at Paizo until later on.

Your Existence Offends Me

This is the one that really bothers me. At least one PFS player at a local convention, after the convention was over, came on the boards, here, and complained about the existence of the ape animal companion.

If there had been an issue with the rules, or with the ape domination combat or various scenarios, I could understand the concern. The problem is, the complaint centered around the existence of the animal companion.

I was there at that convention, in most of the sessions with my friend and his characters animal companion. Not only did the animal companion not dominate any scenarios, but my friend quite often held back and didn't send his animal companion into situations because the group already had eidolons and animal companions from other characters rushing into combat.

In fact, said character died and had to be raised in one scenario that weekend. The ape didn't make him invulnerable or make the scenario too easy.

This was something that began to sour me on some PFS players. I can understand someone saying that a given option makes combat too easy or invalidates other players, but to just say that a concept is offensive just seems to be very bitter.

I could complain about, for example, a group of characters from Osirion that introduced themselves in each scenario as terrorists and made ululating noises as they threw bombs, and perhaps I should have. However, it was very ingrained in me not not make waves against someone's concept of a character they are playing.

Rules Changes and Clarifications

As a result of this complaint, there was a deluge of players that apparently are offended by weapon wielding apes. Apparently weapon wielding apes are too much for people to stomach, despite the existence of Mwangi in the setting.

Apes with weapons were banned.

Now, here is a point of misinformation. While my friend was upset that apparently his character option was banned by committee, he was still willing to change his animal companion. He didn't take his ball and go home. The only thing he really did was point out that he got the concept okayed before he ever did it, and pointed out where it was spelled out in the Guide, mainly to counter the flood of people that don't know him and never played with him that suddenly started saying that he was intentionally trying to "pull a fast one."

Then, hot on the heels of the "apes with hammers" ban, the FAQ that mentioned that animals of any intelligence still need to be controlled by handle animal in order to be given orders in combat.

Again, my friend was fully willing to comply and alter his character, but when he asked about being able to retrain his skills so that he had ranks in handle animal, he was told that the FAQ was a rules clarification, not a change.

So despite the fact that a good percentage of the board assumed that intelligent animal companions could be given orders, and despite the fact that a Paizo staffer had mentioned this, a very strict "no rebuild" was laid down.

Even at this point, my friend briefly considered just adding skill points as he got levels, but, this being the cogent point, a cleric does not have handle animal as a class skill. It would have taken him multiple levels to get to the point to where he could actually control his animal reliably, since he couldn't rebuild.

Exodus

On top of all of this, sentiment in the PFS threads turned very ugly. Many people ascribed motives to my friend, and many others continued to make comments that he should have "known" that he was "gaming" the system, even with approval.

Other people were decrying the concept and deriding him for even attempting the build in the first place. These comments were harsh and uncalled for, and increasingly added motivation and untruths into what actually happened in this situation.

It became very clear to both of us that if enough people didn't like your concept, it could be "voted" out of existence. It also became clear that even Venture Captains were piling on with the harsh commentary and vicious characterization.

Neither one of us play PFS any more. Every once in a while, I check back in, because at one time, I invested a lot of time and effort to get it going in my area, but the culture, at times, strikes me as increasingly elitist and insular.

I know this probably won't quell all of the comments about the "guy breaking the rules with the over powered super ape with the hammer that ruined Pathfinder for everyone," but it's hard for me to still see comments by people this long after the fact maligning my friend over this issue.

He's gone, you don't need to keep kicking him. Don't worry, you got rid of the undesirable.


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The most annoying part of this entire situation isn't even the rules change/clarification, it is the attitude adopted by many that if you interpreted the rules under the less restrictive form, that somehow the person that did so was clearly not paying attention/comprehending how Pathfinder works/trying to game the system.

Given the number of people that seem to have interpreted the rule in it's less restrictive form, it would be nice if people would simply acknowledge that perhaps the rule, if intended in the stricter form from the beginning, was not as clear as it could have been.


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No class inherently has any legal standing in any campaign.

An inquisitor is a class. That class is suppose to sniff out enemies of the faith if they are hiding or before they attack the faith. They are simply the sneakier, more proactive side of a cleric or paladin.

Any legal standing an inquisitor has would have to do with the actual campaign.

An inquisitor of Asmodeus in a campaign set in Cheliax would mean that character probably has a lot of pull with the local authorities, but it's still the GMs call.

An inquisitor of Erastil from Andoran in that same campaign that is trying to make sure if events in Cheliax are likely to harm is treasured homeland is probably going to have zero standing in the same campaign, and probably doesn't want to advertise his presence if he can help it, again, subject to how the GM wants to run it.

So it's not a matter of anything inherent in the class, it's a matter of the GMs campaign and how much pull the inquisitor's faith has in the setting, as well as if the PCs inquisitor is in favorable standing with his own faith.

1/5

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Andrew Christian wrote:


The only reason I can think of, that someone would choose to create this character concept, is because they think its cool to flaunt RAW vs. canon in GM's and Developer's faces. Otherwise, you could create a separatist Pharasman cleric without having to go straight towards what she is Fanatical against.

Except the person in question has explained why he wanted to do this, and provided background information. If, after reading his reasoning, you would still conclude what you have, you must assume that he is being duplicitous in his stated intentions. Why?

Beyond that, why is this legal choice subject to such debate? Again, I'm not arguing that if someone created undead, or attempted such, Pharasma wouldn't yank her spells from the cleric. There are mechanics for that laid out under cleric and the atonement spell.

Would you make a dwarf proficient with a scimitar explain why, despite his cultural bias towards axes and hammers, he's taking a scimitar as his weapon of choice?

Maybe it bothers some people that a dwarf would use a scimitar, and it intrudes on their fun at the table. Do you want to take up table time with the dwarf justifying his weapon choice, because if not, clearly he's doing something to take advantage of the rules somewhere down the line, because its not normal in Golarion canon for a dwarf to run around with a scimitar.

1/5

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Sure I can. It doesn't create undead. It doesn't control undead. I see no problem with it. She wouldn't grant it to her normal clergy, no. The problem being, the archetype, again, which is legal, is to create borderline heretical clerics.

There is zero point in the archetype being legal if possible applications of it can be ruled as invalid based on a GM judgement call.

1/5

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Getting back on topic, how is using the abilities of the undead domain automatically violating Pharasma's dogma?

We have a clear line. No creating undead. No controlling undead to do anything other than destroying other undead.

If the domain is not used for anything under the above, what is the problem?

To use another, in game, analogy, let's say in order to hide from a priest of Urgathoa, someone in the party casts an illusion to make them all look undead.

Is this promoting undeath? Does the cleric of Pharasma in the party have to refuse to be part of the illusion? Will they loose their spells immediately if they accept the disguise?

The ability, again, is suppose to create characters that might be pretty close to being called heretics, without breaking the inviolate line of sins against the god's dogma.

There seems to be two options here. One is that someone goes through and says what, even with the archetype in question, is and isn't acceptable, or the archetype isn't allowed in PFS. Otherwise, why worry about what someone else does with their character?

It just seems like a lot of people invest a lot of their own personal stake in what is fun for them on if everyone else at the table is having their kind of fun, which seems to be rather intrusive for the other people.

1/5

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The . . . ahem . . . drop dead point in Pharasma's religion is creating undead, or controlling them to do anything other than destroy other undead.

This is a matter of following the god's actual dogma to not loose spells.

However, the character in question is not looking to create undead. Giving his companions the seeming abilities of the undead is not creating undead. None of them actually become undead.

Would this make traditional Pharasmists feel squicky? Probably so.

Again . . . isn't that the point of the archetype in the first place?

Which brings me back to the original point. If you are going to expect GMs to micromanage the One True Vision when something is perfectly within the Rules as Written, then isn't it better to just disallow something in the first place.

And if you want it allowed, know that it will be used as intended, as written in the description of the ability, to make characters that push boundaries.

1/5

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There are so many things I've seen in Pathfinder Society that I, as a GM, never thought to question, because if it's legal in the rules, and that's how the player wants to run the character, then I'll run the adventure, and we're all good.

It is strange to me that at one point it seemed that Pathfinder Society was to highlight the campaign setting, but now we seem to expect people to be well versed in the One True Vision of the setting to know when something is legal by RAW, but not by the consensus roleplaying opinion.

If this is going to be such a roleplaying hassle, why is it legal? You could have a true neutral cleric of Urgathoa with the healing domain, legally, with this. Should that be banned too?

How do you know that somewhere, out there, in the great beyond, some other god isn't pulling the cleric's strings and making him think he's getting his powers from Pharasma? It's not like it's going to come up in an organized play campaign, because nothing is tailored specifically for the PCs at the table.

I'm not even arguing that this particular example should or shouldn't be allowed, I'm saying that the class feature is pretty much tailored for creating heretics. It says so right in the text.

If it boils down to assuming everyone will agree on what kind of heretical behavior is "too far," then perhaps the ability shouldn't be allowed in the first place. If it is allowed, given the nature of organized play, you should expect some strange combination of clerical abilities.


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Theo Stern wrote:
I really did not intend for this to turn into a Piazo bashing session, rather a discussion of the feat. I like the game, I like the APG and I like a lot of the stuff in UM. I just don't like this feat. Hey know what? I don't have to use it as written *shrugs*.

I understand what you are saying, but I also would like to point out that several people that have concerns also like Paizo. I'm a fan of a lot of what they have done. However, when you become so big a fan that you excuse mistakes routinely, it doesn't help you, as a fan, or the company that you hope to support.


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Man, here I thought this was going to be a light-hearted thread about paladins doing goofy non-heroic or amazingly dumb things, not version 23,456,984 of the paladin code debate . . . ;)


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Oh, and to rat out my dear youngest daughter, this one is a bad paladin story . . .

Upon seeing a bright naga taking down her brother's and sister's character, as well as their pet dog, her paladin immediately says, "I'm going to run . . . I don't want to die."

"Are you going to try to take them with?"

"Not if they slow me down."

;)


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I'm going to put a disclaimer on the following comment, in that I don't think that the player in question was roleplaying his paladin badly, its more a matter of an amusing quirk he adopted to his own personal code.

When another player made him invisible in one session, he asked him never to do so again, because he felt it was a dishonorable way to take advantage of his opponent.

In another session, the bard again made the paladin invisible, at which point the paladin apologized to his opponent and told the opponent where he was, and then asked the bard again not to make him invisible.

Hate to post this in a "worst" paladin thread, as I thought it was actually pretty amusing, but I had to share. ;)


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James Jacobs wrote:
The Mendevian crusade is mostly under the control of the church of Iomedae, who does NOT get on well at all with the church of Asmodeus. Further, the Hellknights themselves aren't all that greatly interested in things going on outside of Cheliax or their neighbors/thrall states (like Isger). There might be some Hellknights involved in the Mendevian crusade, but not many, and they don't have an official presence there, and most Hellknight Orders would actually consider teaming up with Iomedaean crusaders as sketchy at best... ESPECIALLY when there's so much law needing to be enforced back home.

"When those Iomedaen fools finally prove too weak to hold back the tides of the Abyss, we'll have Cheliax shored up and ready to resist any potential thread that could strike us. The demons will scour away the weak and disordered, and we will move into the void left behind and finish off what's left of the demon hordes."

You know, I'm starting to picture some of the nations of the Inner Sea as viewing the Worldwound kind of like the Seven Kingdoms views the lands beyond the Wall in the SOIAF, not worrying about the potential thread because they don't have to deal with it directly.

Hm, now I'm thinking about low templars getting sent to Mendev in exchange for a pardon for issues back home . . . ;)


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Squidmasher wrote:

Mind Flayers, Beholders, Gith, Umber Hulks, and a few others are closed content that Paizo almost certainly won't ever be able to use.

And also, members of the Paizo staff have elaborated that in no uncertain terms do they want to do "near misses" that skirt the intent of keeping these monster closed content.

I.e. no floating eyeball monsters or brain eating tentacled humanoid aberrations with different names, for example.


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The following page has probably the best summation of what monsters are not in the SRD, and thus open, that are in the 3.5 Monster Manual:

d20 SRD FAQ page


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Mouthy Upstart wrote:
Well, hell... somebody killed Aroden!

Actually, the embarrassing thing is, Aroden actually slipped on a bar of cosmic soap and hit his head on the side of his bath tub.


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I don't know . . . if Jaime Lannister can beat him, I'm sure Godzilla can do it:

Jaime Lannister versus Cthulhu


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This whole topic has me thinking of some Pharasma lore that might be fun if it ever has a way to work into my campaign.

I can picture a section of Pharasma's domain, the Restless Warrens, where she has special guards placed to guard the souls of those that have been animated as mindless undead.

The process draws the souls back towards their bodies, and to keep them safe and to secure Pharasma's right to either judge them or uphold he judgment, the guardians keep the souls carefully watched until such time as the animated bodies are destroyed and the restless ones no longer are drawn to them.

In order to keep the restless ones placated, the Restless Warrens have a pool in the center of the place called the Pool of Unblinking Eyes, where any of the restless ones can look and they will see in the waters what the eyes of their bodies see. Sometimes they are horrified, but while gazing through their old eyes the desire to enter their old bodies is quieted.

Once the animated forms are destroyed, the link is gone, and the guardians escort the soul back to its proper place, either back in line or in their final resting place.

Not unlike the remains of a saint, those souls that have become the basis of a celestial being such as an angel have their former bodies consecrated in such a way that they cannot be animated. This is not true of all good folk that pass on to their final reward, only those that become celestials, so as to allow them to not be distracted from their works.

Fiends are not quite so fortunate, and are often especially irritated by the feeling that part of themselves is bound to a mortal shell. Devils are often especially tormented, as they are not allowed to freely seek out these former shells quite so easily.

Those whose fate calls for them to return to Golarion reincarnated, either by Pharasma's decree or their own god's final pronouncement, may experience strange unsettling dreams while their former bodies are animated, and upon death, Pharasma's guardians immediately escort their soul to the Restless Warrens to await their old bodies demise (though these poor souls have the added discomfort of possibly having more than one body animated, and thus staying in the Restless Warrens even longer).

For those that are buried and decaying in the afterlife, there is no great change to their status, save that their rotting soul form cannot fully decompose and redistribute its soulstuff back to the multiverse until their former bodies are destroyed, at which point the decay rapidly reinstates itself.

Or something like that . . .


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"I'm sorry, you just pissed your spot at the table away." ;)


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hida_jiremi wrote:
Those NE types just don't have any dedication.

"I'm willing to skirt the law if I have to, and to ruin other people's lives for my own benefit."

"I'm sorry, you're not an anti-paladin. Have you considered a career in politics?"

1/5

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Herald wrote:

Actually an Andoran character would be powerless to do anything. Players are not to interfere with other players belongings.

However, I'm of the mind that a slave is a cohort by another name and therefor illegal as the Leadership feat is disallowed for play.

Not to mention, unless the adventure takes place in Andoren, you are hard pressed to find a place where freeing the slave isn't actually a serious crime.


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Charles Evans 25 wrote:


Well played there, by Dario. That should be worth extra popularity points, if not an outright Fame Point.

It should also get interesting after Dario's death since:

Spoiler:
Dario made a bet with a contract devil in Pharasma's domain that he could unravel whatever villainy was afoot in Westcrown before he dies again, and if he fails, the contract devil gets his soul.

The in game mechanics of this are that he's coming back as a Hellbred from the Fiendish Codex II, and if he makes it to the end of the AP, he drops dead and goes straight to Nirvana, and if he dies before hand, he can't be raised.

I decided that, coming back as a Hellbred, he's going to look exactly like his Larazod makeup.


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Well, I don't think they were ever fully stated up, but Elminster had magic undergarments of some kind in Elminster in Hell. The book never said what they were, just that they were, indeed, magical.


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I think at one point in time we all kind of go through the mental exercise of trying to envision the "perfect" way to portray aspects of fantasy. I used to think it would be really cool to see spellcasters making checks to cast spells or keeling over if they pushed themselves, etc.

In the end, it complicates the game and pushes people away from playing casters. For an example, my friends and I played the old Lankhmar products for AD&D in a campaign for a while. In that setting, all of the casting times "moved up," so that if you had a spell that took a round to cast, for example, it took a minute to cast, and one that took a minute took 10 minutes, and 10 minutes an hour, etc.

While it did, somewhat, mimic how magic worked in the novels (you could still do major spells, but they rarely ever went off in combat, for example), no one ever wanted to play a spellcaster of any kind.

Now, given that in the Fafhrd and Mouser books or Conan the protagonists don't primarily rely on magic, this isn't a bad thing if you want your setting to emulate those kinds of settings, if you want to have the same "baseline" feel as standard d20 Fantasy, its not going to "just add flavor," its going to really change feel of the game.

Changing how magic works is fine, just remember that its going to really create a different feel in the setting.


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I threw together some ideas for fleshing out the Dusk Market, in case anyone starts to frequent the businesses there. My own players are interested in this since I've been playing up that the local businesses do have to answer questions for the Dottari or the Hellknights about what they might have sold to whom and when.

Dusk Market details I've come up with:

Spoiler:

Malraugus, also known as "Boss": Malraugus is the Dark Stalker often referred to as "Boss" by his followers and even by some of the other inhabitants of the Dusk Market. While the Market is open for business, Malraugus can be seen darting from shadow to shadow around the market, giving orders to his followers and taking notes, then disappearing before anyone can ask him further questions.

Malraugus' Teamsters: Malraugus has a uncounted number of Dark Creepers that follow his every command. Malraugus hires out these followers to break down and move the Dusk Market every night, and set it up again every afternoon. When Malraugus gives the command, a swarm of the rag clad beings boils out of the ruins and swarms on the tents and structures of the Dusk Market like locusts on crops.

Not unlike Malraugus, the teamsters dart from the shadows from time to time, sometimes making a comment to one of the shop keepers or customers, then disappear before they can be further addressed.

The Alchemist (Alchemical Supplies and Arcane Potions): No one in the market has a name to put to this figure, and as such he is only referred to by his profession. The Alchemist wears very formal, well tailored robes of red with gold trim and runes. He also wears a mask that covers his eyes, though he never seems to have a difficult time seeing those that he is dealing with.

The Alchemist is a great source of gossip for others in the Dusk Market, in part because the man never gives away any degree of information about himself. Any attempt to discuss anything except commerce with actually aggrieve the Alchemist, and repeatedly trying to discuss anything with him that doesn't relate to the purchase of alchemical items or potions will actually cause him to threaten to annihilate the customer in question.

The Alchemist has an assistant, an Ukobach devil that goes by the name Trochalk. Trochalk will often times step in to finish a sale if the Alchemist himself gets too frustrated to conduct business. Trochalk himself is often amused at the discomfort of the Alchemist.

The Alchemist's shop is unnamed, and is usually set up on some ruined storefront or building within the ruins. If business doesn't seem particularly brisk, Trochalk will stand out front and act as a crier, actively soliciting customers for the shop.

Madame Liiresta (Brothel): Liiresta is the public face, and assumed owner, of the Carnal Knowledge. Upon arriving at the entrance to the Carnal Knowledge, Madame Liiresta welcomes the customer and hands them a book with various acts described and detailed for various prices. Once a page is selected, Madame Liiresta collects the cash, directs the customer to the proper section of the Carnal Knowledge, and waits for the next customer, though she does tend to cut off sales before the Dusk Market closes, depending on the act chosen, so that the customer won't be interrupted with the onset of nightfall.

Customers don't realize this when they first come to the Carnal Knowledge, but Madame Liiresta's book is actually magical in nature. The book displays only the acts that a given customer is not vehemently morally opposed to (it will show acts that they believe to be immoral, but that do not elicit a sense of outrage). The numbers reconfigure based on which ones are on display (leading to some amusing misunderstandings between patrons that refer to what they may have purchased by number). It is not uncommon for patrons that visit the Carnal Knowledge over time to see more and more options appear in the book, as they find less and less to be repugnant to them. Gossip in the Dusk Market says that seeing every option in the book is usually the first sign that one has gone incurably insane.

Madame Liiresta herself is a tiefling of striking appearance. She has white skin and bright red hair and lips, with tiny horns on her forehead, barely perceptible through her hair. Liiresta doesn't wear particularly revealing clothing, though she does wear form fitting clothing that shows very little flesh. Liiresta often times even wears demure hoods or shawls and plays the part of the shy flower from time to time.

If the gossip in the market can be trusted, Liiresta has almost no interest in the kind of pleasures that she traffics, except under certain circumstances. According to these rumors, Liiresta becomes quite interested in amorous activities if she has recently killed someone or something. These can be employees that fail to meet her standards or disappoint her customers, or the odd Dark Creeper that tries to sneak a peek under one of the tent flaps. Once she has killed, the only thing on her mind is satiating other desires. Those same rumors claim that Liiresta has birthmarks that look like feather patterned tattoes on her back, from her shoulders to her hips. Finding out the truth of these rumors could be challenging and potentially dangerous to the curious.

The Carnal Knowledge is a huge complex of pavilion tents that all connect with one another to form a maze of black canvas. While the sounds typical of an establishment of this nature can be heard softly emanating from the tents, that gentle background noise is heard from the time the tents are set up to the time they are broken down, and many believe that there may be an enchantment that hides the true, and perhaps more daunting, noises that would be generated by some of the less seen numbers in Liiresta's book.

Doctor Aerelien (Divine Spellcasting and Divine Potions): Doctor Aerelien is a Forsaken Elf that has taken up the worship of Zon-Kuthon. The elf has black hair and pale skin, but is attractive and personable to anyone that enters his relatively small tent from which he operates his business.

Anyone looking closely at Aerelian notices that the elf has actually developed very small scars across his face near his eyes, ears, and mouth, the results of experimental surgeries that he has performed on himself to alter his appearance.

Aerelian will gladly cast divine spells for those that come to him, and will provide potions and divine scrolls for anyone that requests them, for the proper fee. Whenever someone comes to him with an affliction, however, Aerelien does exhort his patients to discuss their affliction or injury in exacting detail, often time smiling at disturbing points in the discussion.

Kuraud (Arms and Armor): Kuraud is a hobgoblin weaponsmith that proudly sells weapons, both mundane and masterwork, as well as similar armor as well. Originally Kuraud's business was a partnership with his brother Nurvas. Once the business became profitable, Kuraud formally challenged his brother for the right to his half of the business, killed Nurvas, and had his children killed and claimed his wives.

Kuraud often speaks fondly of his brother and if asked has no problem explaining how the business came under his control. Kuraud has a difficult time understanding how other cultures might view hobgoblin practices. He fully expects one of his sons, all of whom are skilled weapon or armor smiths, to eventually challenge him for the right to run the business, but he is confident that he is still young and healthy enough to kill whichever son might challenge him first.

Kuraud's armor and weapons are usually very utilitarian in design and appearance, which often leads his patrons to believe that he cannot create more artistic weapons and armor. These patrons are incorrect. Karaud rarely advertises it, but one of his sons is quite gifted in adding artistic flourishes to weapons and armor, and its even been rumored that some Hellknights have even come to the hobgoblin to craft their specialized suits of armor.

Kuraud always attempts to set up his shop in an abandoned building to provide him with a solid structure. During the time that that Dusk Market is open, his sons often work to show off items and volunteer services that the shop might provide.

Tanglesmell Earflingnailboard (Narcotics and Poisons): Tanglesmell is a gnome that believes that the key to never falling prey to the Bleaching is to regularly sample new mind altering substances. He sells many of these, and has contacts that can find him rare and exotic intoxicants from around Avistan and beyond.

Tanglesmell has, over the years, learned to extract some of the less savory side effects from the drugs that he sells in order to create poisons. Eventually he has learned to create poisons that have nothing to do with the drugs he sells, and has learned that this is a profitable side business. While some of the other vendors also sell poisons, Tanglesmell is particularly good at making them quickly.

Tanglesmell's obsessiveness has led him, in the safety of his lab during the day, to see how well he can resist his own poisons, intentionally damaging himself to see what the poison does. From time to time Tanglesmell has also had discussions with Aerelian over some of these instances.

Trask Cannivard (Arranged Thefts): Trask is a happy, outgoing halfling that was once a slave in Westcrown. He has many contacts among the halflings of the city, those that have positions granting them access to much that the humans of the city don't quite realize they have left in the "slips" grasp. Trask can arrange to have nearly anything delivered and left in a certain spot for the right price.

The rumor in the market is that Trask also has ties to the Church of Norgorber as well as his network of halfling slaves, servants, and "arrangers."

Morg "the Drunk" (Alcohol): Morg is a fat, disheveled man that often has burly humans and half-orcs hanging around his shop willing to defend their "buddy" for the price of a few free bottles of whatever Morg has available. Despite this, Morg often has a good stock of whatever rare drink that a patron might wish to purchase.

Morg in reality is a Andoran Eagle Knight that keeps track of rumors and purchases flowing around the Dusk Market, and has made a habit of creating a loyal base of bodyguards and informants from the ranks of porters and bodyguards loyal to other shop keepers.

Balgorn the Quiet (Psionic Items): Balgorn is a Duergar that deals in psionic goods. He has the typical grey skin and bald pate of a duergar, and his beard is long, scraggly, white, and unkempt, which has led some speculation that Balgorn is in morning over some friend or family member, though many often wonder if the Duergar also keep to this dwarven tradition.

Balgorn speaks little, and is put off by anyone that peruses his wares that might have no knowledge of psionics or psionic items.

Tegomalan (Magic Items of all kinds): Tegomalan is a Witchwyrd, a strange alien creature that exists to sell items. He seems to be able to procure almost any kind of magic item if given enough time. Tegomalan originally wished to set up a more legitimate storefront in Westcrown, but frequent visits by thugs collecting "protection money," and constant threats caused him to rethink trying to open up his "magical emporium of the exotic."

Tegomalan even has magically enhanced signboards and lights to hang outside of the pavilion tent that he uses as his storefront. He often goes outside of the tent to bring in business, and is truly enthusiastic about selling to those around him. Often times he intentionally sets his prices just a bit high in order to encourage haggling, but his pattern is very predicable, and nearly anyone that has visited him on a regular basis can figure out that Tegomalan simply wants them to go through the motions to make the alien merchant happy.

Many of the other merchants hate the cheerful alien, but Tegomalan often carries on long detailed conversations with them when business is slow, rarely noting that his fellow merchants seem to be ready to murder him. Morg, Trask, and Aerelian seem to be the only regular members of the Dusk Market not on the verge of finding a suitable assassin to dispatch the Witchwyrd. The main reason that the others don't seem to follow through with such plans seems to be due to the fact that the Witchwyrd has a large group of mercenaries willing to defend Tegomalan, but also the market in general, and because the Witchwyrd tends to draw in the curious to purchase from other local businesses in the market.

Trogeni Khollarix (Slaves): There are several slavers in the Dusk Market, but Trogeni is the most influential, and tends to organize the others, as well as skimming a bit of gold off the top of all of the slave sales in the Dusk Market. Trogeni appears to be completely human, and rarely volunteers his last name to anyone.

The truth is that not only is Trogeni not fully human, he is a certified first generation shame to his family as a full half-fiend, a shame to his family due to a daughter of the family dallying with a charming devil that served the family's interests in Egorian, as the family attempted to raise their standing with the House of Thrune.

Trogeni funnels gold back to his family, quietly, and in exchange gets to call on a few of the family ties when he makes his business deals. Morg tends to be very interested in Trogeni's business dealings.

Trogeni has from time to time arranged to sell unfortunate individuals into slavery outside of Cheliax when they have become a liability in their native land.

This shouldn't be seen as an exhaustive list of businesses in the Dusk Market, just the most prominent and stable of the businesses that set up there.

Let me know what you think, and hopefully this will be helpful to someone that might want to use the Dusk Market in their games.


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I'm disappointed. I figured from the title we'd all be getting together and pointing out what's wrong with shields.

"You're rigid and inflexible!"


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To clarify what I'm hoping to have clarified, from what I have heard regarding alternative opinions on this matter, its not that you must have a trip weapon to perform a trip, its that, without a trip weapon, you use your normal CMB to attempt a trip, without any bonuses that you would get from a weapon.

Under this interpretation, trip would work this way:

Trip Without a Trip Weapon and Without Improved Trip

If you attempt to trip without Improved Trip and without a trip weapon, you roll your attack plus your CMB against CMD, and if you fail by 10 or more, you are prone, if you are successful, they are prone. Attempting to trip provokes an AoO and if successful, the damage is added to the CMD of the opponent.

Trip Without Improved Trip but With A Trip Weapon

If you attempt to trip with a trip weapon but without Improved Trip, you make a CMB roll, with any bonuses that would apply to the weapon since you are using a trip weapon (so if its a +2 weapon, you would get a +2 bonus, for example), and if you fail by 10 or more, you can drop your weapon to avoid going prone. If successful, your opponent is prone, and if the AoO you provoke is successful, you add the damage to the CMD of your opponent.

Trip With Improved Trip but Without A Trip Weapon

You can attempt to make a trip attack, using you CMB against the opponents CMD. There is no AoO, but if you fail by 10 or more, you fall prone. You get a +2 bonus on the CMB roll due to the feat.

Trip With Improved Trip and With A Trip Weapon

You can attempt to make a trip attack, and you do not provoke an AoO. You roll your CMB against your opponents CMD, and you can add any bonuses that the weapon has (for example, if the weapon is a +2 weapon, as an example), and if you fail by 10 or more, you can drop your weapon to not fall prone. You gain +2 to the CMB from the feat.

What I want to know is if the above is how this should work, or if weapons always factor into the situation. I have heard both interpretations, so I'm not so much wanting to rehash arguments about this, as to either get an official word, or have someone cite where an official word has been given.


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js3 wrote:

This makes no sense. Drinking alcohol is supposed to give all kinds of numerical penalties to characters, but absolutely no benefits of any kind? Why would anybody drink at all, then?

It's not accurate to treat alcohol purely as a poison. It has potentially beneficial effects: maybe bonuses to Diplomacy checks, or resistance to fear, or maybe even some temporary HP... there are lots of possibilities.

No . . . you just think your diplomacy roll is higher because of the alcohol . . .

"Did you see that? She's totally into me . . . really . . . "

1/5

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Enevhar Aldarion wrote:
I have looked over the Golarion map before to figure out why it is those five factions, and I see that four of the five countries the factions are from directly surround the part of the Inner Sea that contains the island that Absalom is on, thus giving them political and territorial reasons to fight over the city. But I also wonder sort of the opposite of why aren't there more factions, more it is why is there a Cheliax faction when they are so far away. Now, looking at the map only and not reading the histories of the countries, I wonder if there is a faction for Cheliax, why isn't there one for Thuvia or Katapesh. They are coastal countries also and maybe not even as far from Ablasom as Cheliax. And on the point about an Absalom faction, if there was one added, shouldn't it be more of a Kortos faction, which would be trying to keep the foreigners out and control both islands and not just the city?

Cheliax considers itself the pinnacle of human nations, has various vassal states around the world, and is very interested in putting the hammer to the last nails in the coffin of Taldor and keeping Andoran from spreading their "insane" ideas of freedom around the world.

Unlike the other factions, which have strong central governments, Thuvia is a coalition of city-states, meaning that their interests like in keeping Thuvia independent and prosperous, and its hard to have larger goals than than when the individual cities are still a strong element of their government.

Katapesh is odd in that, while they have the second largest trade city on the planet, they are ruled by strange aliens (the Pactmasters) that have inscrutable goals, that work by pulling the strings of various merchants and minor rulers across the nation. While they may have goals that are more extensive than "make Katapesh richer," its hard to know what they are, and it would be very hard to have faction missions based on goals and drives that have never been explained.

Beyond geographical location, Taldor and Qadira are major powers, even if Taldor is falling apart around the edges, and have a lot of pull and resources to bring to bear in pushing Absalom on direction or the other (and Taldor has a tenuous claim to the Lordship of Absalom under the right conditions).

Andoran and Osirion are both "up and comers," and while they may not have the power and wealth that the other factions have, they have drive and energy, as well as still having a lot of wealth on their own (just not the wealth of having once been the "empire" that dominated one continent or another, as Cheliax, Taldor, and Qadira via the Keleshite Empire have and/or had).

Osirion also has the interesting dual personality of being a "new and young" nation while still inheriting "Old Osirion's" culture and tradition, giving it a youthful drive with the sense of entitlement that comes from "Old Osirion's" importance and influence before Qadira's control. And, of course, just like Cheliax will get involved in Taldor and Andoran are involved, Osirion will have an interest in Qadira not becoming more powerful.

Finally, being the young idealists with a lot of resource wealth isn't the only drive for Andoran, either, as Cheliax is both morally opposed to them due to slavery, and traditionally opposed, due to their former control of Andoran, they have a history as being under the control of Taldor before Cheliax, and as the biggest mercantile driver of the slave trade, Qadira is a huge idealogical target (and the fact that Osirion has slaves, even if they aren't as cruel to them as Cheliax or as financially driven to push the market as Qadira, pretty much assures that Andoran opposes everyone else).

I guess what I'm trying to say in all of this long winded post is that the factions that exist certainly aren't the only factions that have agents in Absalom, but the five factions chosen have a reason to both try to influence Absalom's politics and to push their agenda before the other factions push theirs, as there is a kind of spider web effect with the chosen factions where if they promote this, they have to oppose that, which involves X and maybe Y.

Finally, an Absalom faction, if you read the Guide to Absalom, would most likely be interested just in keeping tabs on all of the other factions. Absalom's "personality" is much more interested in just knowing that there are plots going on than actively pushing one or squashing another, and unless a given faction was on the verge of dramatically changing Absalom, or, gods forbid, endangering trade, most of the faction missions would most logically be to note other faction missions and report on them, which isn't the most dynamic of goals to consistently give out to players.


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Stereofm wrote:

Hi Guys,

say my group is probably finishing Burnt Offerings next week, and we'll start on the Skinsaw shortly after

So Question !

** spoiler omitted **

Here's what I did, although I don't have the exact numbers handy:

Spoiler:
Since each haunting has a CR rating, I gave them a save equal to that "level", and if the PC got off a Channel Energy and the haunting missed its save, it was dispelled, and if it made its save, it occurred as detailed.


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Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

Contra

Spread

Konami

Oh, you mean the "I can see anything else on the screen because we both have these and we're both firing them" guns?

Also known as the "I'd rather die than try to finish the game now that I just lost the gun" gun?


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To be fair, I liked that the FR novels were canon, but the scope of the novels changed from 1st to 2nd to 3rd edition. Most of the people I know that wanted them to be canon wanted it because they liked Character X who was the King's cousin that might show up again in a sourcebook or novel in the future, but by the time 3rd edition rolled around, it wasn't minor character continuity or cultural quirks that were "canon," it was "oh, half or Cormyr is ravaged by this army, and dragons destroyed this or that, but you aren't getting a sourcebook to sort any of it out, and it may or may not end up being important to the next RSE trilogy that has already started before the last crisis ended."

In other words, it seemed like, Avatar books excluded, most novels in the 1st and 2nd edition timeframe tended to tells stories about characters that fleshed out a given region, whereas series at the end of 2nd and throughout 3rd had major ramifications for whole countries and organizations. That should have never been the case.


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Jason Beardsley wrote:
To me: it doesn't matter. But, i do think this whole topic is getting way too much attention, imho.

I'm really starting to agree. I'd kind of like to see all of these discussions wither on the vine. No offense to the OP or anything, I just think its run its course, and its an age old argument that goes down the exact same paths every time it comes up.


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Mistwalker wrote:

Well, the player of the Paladin was the one who got caught by Ven. IT was hilarious. Ven was able to call into question the state of the Paladin's soul, his integrity and his general honesty.

Ven refused to sell anything to anyone in the group.

When the group found the hat of disguise in the Skinshaw Murders, their first reaction (all of them), was "Alright, we can buy stuff in the store now!". This was followed by, "hmm, we can also get anyone banned from the store, just by letting Ven see "them" hand over goods to us".

Our group had a Shoanti paladin in the group, who was still getting used to "civilized" ways of doing things, so when the half-elf wizard went to help her "kill rats," the paladin, not completely clueless, thought that there was a mating ritual where the male helped the female do some household chore, then was rewarded with sex, and then they would get married and start a family.

When Vin caught the half-elf and his daughter, the paladin strode into the store, sure that Vin had just misunderstood and thought the proper mating ritual hadn't been performed . . . at the height of Vin's rage, the paladin assured him that now that the two had been intimate, he was going to personally walk them to the Cathedral for their betrothal, and which point Vin's daughter was so flustered that she began to protest that what her father thought was going on hadn't really happened, and then threw her sister into the conversation as well.

The half-elf just sat by constantly confused (he had actually wanted to talk Vin or his daughter into buying scrolls for him from the Ilsoari, since he had gotten kicked out of the Academy for scaring a student there).

In the end, the paladin had everyone so confused with his talk of mating rituals and immediate marriage, and Shayliss was so upset about the whole situation blowing up, that she talked her father down, and everyone went their separate ways, at which point the paladin wondered if the half-elf couldn't properly perform some aspect of the mating ritual.


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Paris Crenshaw wrote:
KEJ, check out page 71 of Pathfinder Volume 3, "The Hook Mountain Massacre" It's a table of "Wandering Monsters in Varisia."

Gah, that's it . . . I knew I had seen it. I must have looked in every one except that one. Thanks for the help.


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For some reason I could have sworn that I've seen an encounter table for Varisia, or the Sandpoint region, but I can't find one anywhere. Was I imagining this, or is there one of these floating around in one of the issues of the AP?


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Sean K Reynolds wrote:


My personal preference is: if the god isn't your patron, you can't cast the spell, regardless of what type (brd, clr, drd, sor, or wiz). Part of the casting requires invoking the deity, and the deity can fiddle with the casting if they choose to do so.

That said, in pure game mechanics terms there's nothing preventing an Asmodean wizard from writing down those spells and giving them to a Desnan wizard. But the churches probably feel very proprietary about their faith-specific spells and track down copies of the spells that spread to other people.

Thanks for the answer Sean, I appreciate it. Although that still gives me some ideas on an Asmodean arcanist introducing this spell to someone without any patron at all.

"Just calling out to Asmodeus while casting the spell is simply a formality, a quirk in the written structure of the original spell . . . after you've gotten used to it, I'm sure you could spend some time modifying it to your needs."


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Sebastian wrote:

I'd prefer my rpg's to be free of political axe-grinding, no matter the flavor. The Crimson Throne relationships are good stories and don't stick out like a sore thumb. "Let's make a gay paladin and good doctor that provides abortions" and "one or more of the iconics is gay" strikes me as intentionally sticking the same sore thumb in the collective eye of people who are bothered by those ideas. Does Paizo really need to take a stand on these issue? What's next? Militant vegan iconics? Anti-union iconics? Does one iconic support the closing of the Chilexian border?

I could really do without yet another media outlet sneaking in their unrelated editorial bias. For what it's worth, I'm generally inclined to agree with the Paizo editorial bias, but that's not really the relevant question. The question is whether Paizo is serving the story or their political ideology. If it's the former, I'm groovy (I'm looking at you Crimson Throne), if it's the later, I'm a little disgusted (a gay iconic). Just as I would encourage my fellow posters to air their political views in the appropriate forums or threads, so too would I encourage my friends at Paizo with regards to their beliefs. I don't give a rat's ass what the sexual preferences of the iconics are in a vacuum - if you've got a story to tell and it involves those issues, I'll listen, but I can do without the pithy political soundbite and attempts to beat people with an unwelcome ideology, regardless of whether its my ideology or not.

Sebastian, I just wanted to thank you for being able to sum up some comments I couldn't quite elaborate myself.


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Here's a plea . . . I'm a practicing Catholic, with all that that entails, and I also think that it would be a deal breaker to present Golarion as a complex, detailed world and yet somehow ignore that homosexuality exists. It would devalue the setting as a "working" alternate reality that is detailed and textured.

I've felt that way about the Forgotten Realms as well, and one of the things that has bothered me about some of the backstory of various things in 4e is that is trying to walk a line between every possible "hot button" so that no one is offended, which of course then makes the setting feel all the more artificial.

That having been said, I come to this forum to talk about games. By no means would I expect someone to ignore aspects of the adventures are written into the game, but at the same time, is there really a point in moving beyond the discussion of the game and into political or religious discussions?

I respect a lot of people here on the boards, but I notice when things like this happen, there are a lot of incautious comments about those who are religious, and then I start feeling a bit upset. Some of those comments are made by people that I would like to chat with further, that I see around the forums a lot, and I start to feel like they view me in a negative way, if I happen to make the mistake of mentioning my religion.

I think that sometimes people misinterpret their own faith, and I think that other times well meaning people portray their religious views poorly or in overly simplistic terms. I fully expect those that might have been unfairly portrayed by such a portrayal or interpretation to comment on those declarations, but I would also appreciate if the automatic response wasn't a similarly broad counter comment condemning anyone that is religious as being intolerant, or unable to think for themselves.

I know its never going to happen, but I would really love it if, before people say something about a sensitive subject, they might think about if someone that they talk to all of the time on the boards might be someone affected by an incautious comment. Regardless of my religion, I want to talk to gamers that are homosexual, athiest, conservative, liberal, religious, spiritual, and all the various shades in between, so long as well all talk about what we love, and we all try to make sure that we aren't intentionally taking shots at one another for our differences.


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The Dogslicer Song

Goblins need a blade to fight,
Scare the doggies with our might.
A rusty blade should do the trick,
Their mangy hides we mean to nick.

Into the trash we must dig,
To find a blade not too small or big.
Into the mounds we will dig deep,
Out with a blade we will creep.

A rusty blade to cut their hides,
Dig it deep into their sides.
Look at the mess that we have made,
With our fine new dogslicer blade.


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I think there is a twofold problem with the cleric, which is not actually a problem with the class itself. The first problem is that with all of those cool things that the cleric can do, such as wearing armor and having a decent chance to slug it out with weapons, and the ability to cast some great buffs and combat spells, the cleric rarely has much time to use those abilities.

In a five round combat, what usually happens is:

Round One: Cleric buffs party members

Round Two: Cleric buffs self

Round Three: First party member gets injured/level drained/ability damaged, Cleric has to "fix" them.

Round Four: Party member that is almost dead has to be healed.

Round Five: Another party member either needs to be "fixed" or needs to be healed.

Round Six: Combat over.

If there are undead involved, throw the turn attempt into round one, and bump everything else back by one.

The cleric is very important, and needs to be doing the things that he is doing, but he has probably more responsibilities in a responsible, mature party than any other class. This means that for people that may not be as into roleplaying a "caregiver," or into roleplaying at all, they won't really get into this kind of character.

The other "problem" is with people that DO get into roleplaying, because in many instances, the actual roleplaying specifics of being a cleric of one god over another has been very sparse. How does a cleric of Heironeous play differently than a cleric of Pelor? How does a cleric of "Peace" act if you are a cleric of a "concept?" And if you are playing in a homebrew, and the DM either hasn't come up with details about different faiths, or only has them in his head, how do you find out about them?

I think this is one of the reasons that the Core Beleifs columns have been popular, because they give some roleplaying texture for people that want to know SOMETHING about the religion their cleric belongs to. I also suspect that clerics may not be as unpopular in settings like DragonLance or Forgotten Realms, where deities and their religions have gotten some specific details in the past.

Just my thoughts.

Oh, of the last three characters I have played, two have been clerics.


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Oh, and what Celestial Healer said . . . working on a CR 2 trap . . . some things are even beyond a thousand year old archmage's ability to expedite.


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He's been talking to some Canadian guy about this or that article, while also keeping an eye on the Malaugrym to make sure they don't mass invade Toril, while stopping in to chit chat with wizards from alternate realities (and wondering why he remembers talking to ones from an alternate world that other people swear his world's never been connected to), worrying about various exiled archdevils that might cause some ruckus after his recent trip there, arraging tutors and keeping tabs on his newly found daughter, getting notes to Vangerdahast for his "special" project while setting up some spies to make sure that he doesn't try to do anything with his information that he isn't suppose to, keeping an eye on the various agents trying to destabilize Cormyr, working on making some contacts with the elves that have recently shown up in Cormanthor, making sure his "special image" keeps showing up when the Shadovar scry him, tracking down the Phaerimm that survived the Myth Drannor purge, as well as the ones still running around the North after the shadovar inadvertantly set them free, decorating his new house in the High Moor, buying shower gifts and condolence cards, figuring out if Larloch really didn't know anything, catching up with the Shrinshee, keeping an eye on what Manshoon and Szas Tam are really up to, spending quality time with the Simbul, trading stories with Susprina Arkhenneld, proofreading Volo's new articles now that he isn't a lawn ornament, playing "skipping stones" with the local children in Shadowdale, dictating several letters to the "current" Lhaeo, approving various threatening signs for the path leading up to the tower, turning down a few prospective apprentices that were bold enough to ignore the signs, arranging for priests for said bold prospective apprentices, and spending time contemplating how much more time he has now that he is retired . . .

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