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Jessica Price wrote:
I'm a history buff too, which is probably why I'm so jaded and slightly misanthropic.
I was fine with and enjoyed the coverage of the human ethnicities. If I have any complaints it's that we didn't get more treatment of the existing non-human ethnicities. It would have been nice if the Ekujae Elves, or the Pahmet dwarves, got there own two page or something entries. Also didn't really much care for the amount of space being spent on half-races, which don't have their own culture and tended to end up being a bit repetitive because of that.
Well to me it'd of been so much better if they had 2 pages of human coverage, and then spread the 62 pages ethnicity stuff over EVERY race in the Inner Sea. But in that light the Ekujae Elves and Pahmet dwarves should get coverage too, if that much detail is going to be locked to one race that already has everything.
Well I'll admit, in this context 'need' and 'want' are interchangeable.
They do get a lot of attention, and that's why there are people clamoring to see them less, and the other races get a chance at the spotlight, as it is, humans get the sun while halflings, dwarves, and elves, and half races are equivalently in a basement with one 40 watt bulb flickering on and off. That's not to even compare the other non core races. I see the point on Trek and Wars, but thriving and dominating EVERYTHING are two different things. The human populace of the Federation doesn't own 95%+ of the known galaxy for example.
In that you are right I should lay off the 'monkey' stuff. But I have heard people on these forums bash 'xfolk race' or ban this race, ban that race it's overpowered, it's a furry ewww, or Paizo should kill off 'x' race. (That one got deleted though as I can't find it anymore.) To me personally humans are boring, the same way I personally find Superman boring, they get it all, best at everything, no real believable threats,(Worldwound maybe?) Etc. The only thing it seems that keeps humans from being 100% on Golarion is other humans. (Which is generally the generic fluff of Orcs in Fantasy, if they ever united yada yada unstoppable, but the inverse is more truthful.) If presented as a united front there isn't a place unconquerable on the map, Kyonin (Elf), 5 Kings Mountains (Dwarf), Hold of Belkzen (Orc), none of those places could possibly hold out.
And speaking of Elves, as example I guarantee you story wise it won't be an elf that takes out a big bad like Treerazer, it'll be a human with a special sword that after the big bad has slaughtered all the 'helpless' elves will 'bop' the monster and big bad is dead. Hooray the human. The only non-human, major protagonist in a D&D or Pathfinder novel series was Tanis, Drizzt, and Varian Jeggare. (And admittedly Cattie Brie, Artemis and Wulfgar are all really well done human characters. The Dragonlance ones...eh...I don't hate them but I mean Fizban isn't really a human either.)
Draco Bahamut wrote:
And yet I've seen people get hammered because they want to play the counter culture. "Oh no Dwarves can't/shouldn't be Wizards or Sorcerers. They should only be Clerics or Fighters." Or "Halflings can only be rogues" cause god forbid someone wants to play an agile yet very angry short fella with a big axe.
That said, I'm with the person that would like to play the Ulfen Sylph, I'd welcome that character concept to my table.
If the ethnicities can/could be applied over all races in the books there might not be as much hate, and we do need a dog/wolf race and maybe a Lapine/Rabbit race. But that's neither here nor there.
The big problem with human-centric is many fold, 64 pages of hairless vanilla monkeys is a lot. When other races get 2 pages or less then a paragraph. Especially when humans have since the very beginning got 95% of the Pathfinder coverage. Then you look at what role humans play. 9/10 they are cannon fodder/monster food, or the mastermind BBEG. The 1 out of 10 humans are generally the named NPCs that either hand out quests or are speed bump villains. The PC human is generally in the minority of party composition for most gaming groups. (Our group only had one guy that even played the race.) Yet we are supposed to believe they are over 9 tenths of Golarion's humanoid population. So not only are they over saturated, but by and large just numbers alone they out number the races that are supposed to be the endless hordes like the orcs and goblins.
If they had those numbers then you have to look at either the breeding out of or given human nature the far more likely genocidal removal of every Elf, Dwarf, Gnome, all the way to the rarest of rare races within two generations. Humans are also stupidly overpowered/overly flexible in the mechanics of the game, with some of (if not across all classes) the best racial FC bonuses. A racial feat with more potential for abuse then even Leadership, and so many other annoy things.
So TLDR a lot of the hate of the human-centric stuff is the race is already getting the very best of the best, and yet they are generic, boring, oversaturated, over covered, and it feels like the race is really PUSHED on people whether they want them or not and those who play the game to ESCAPE being human in the real world.
Or for an even easier TLDR read this: http://horizonwalking.blogspot.com/2014/03/orthoss-observations-humans.html
"Devil's Advocate" wrote:
Yup the Racial Heritage feat and the fact the generally get an extra feat to burn anyway. Makes humans very strong and certainly an OP contender.
Lord Fyre wrote:
Yeah but heck other then Troxs and maybe Kasatha, and maybe just maybe Svirfneblin, the monstrous ones aren't any better then a stock human. So this to me is bunk. As far as advanced, you could argue Drow, but as long as it's not 'noble' it's not op.
I really don't think of aasimar and tiefling as advanced races.
People say it's the resistances but those people are wrong.
My best dressed character? Oh that's gotta be my Daz Bangfang
I mean that fur coat, both on him and the fur lined cloak of resistance and pants, rocking sandals, practical yet stylish belts, poofy entertainer's outfit, a gold leaf earring and a well made backpack. Not to mention those weapon cord accessories. And Raccoon > Parrot. :P
Golarion is a lot less humanocentric, like instead of 95% in a region it's more like 50% and the other 50% being other races. Except in deeply human ran/racist nations like Cheliax and Taldor.
As far as what's popped up in game that changes the world?
There is a dwarf wizard in command of all of Xin-Shalast, slowly making it a dwarf colony.
Not my fault most NPC populaces then are racist...speciesist?...But gnolls are a 'civilized' part of certain regions like Katapesh. So it's not like you would NEVER find one walking down a street. I have 3 in Pathfinder alone that I enjoy playing and they fit so well in to the party and story.
As far as mechanical brokenness of the human race? I've barked up that tree on other threads, tl;dr it's part of what Corvus said...among other things....racial heritage...*eye twitching*...best FC bonuses...
As far as Tieflings and Aasimars in the long game/campaign/ap are well balanced in comparison to a human. As long as I've played I've only seen one player in our group make a really powerful Tiefling, and she did it so the other people at the table would take her seriously. But even then what made her character terrifying could of been done with a human.
Under 20 ARG RPs the human race is king of the builds,book support and the cheese.
Lord Fyre wrote:
No! They should take the place of Halflings! Cause they are certainly cuter. ^-^ /jk
I do like Kobolds as well though, defiantly a top ten race in my book.
Alexander Augunas wrote:
Actually they are now and they came from. ARG:
Which is good as they should of never been a lvl adjustment race to begin with. (Of course if it was up to me they would of been a core race cause gnolls are awesome)
At least they aren't broken as hell like humans ^-^
Well can't speak too much on Golarion but I know Faerun had an entire race of dark skinned dwarves, called Gold Dwarves. I think they also had elves of varying skin colors and such. I really don't see why you can't make your character a certain skin tone if it fits what you want. Though it would be epic to have a 'modern' campaign with a dark skinned dwarf dressing and acting like Shaft or Mr. T.
Four pages for each human ethnicity? A considerable chuck of this book has lost its value to my group and I. Darn, I was really excited for this one. :/
Well like I said it's just best to take the ethnicity stuff and apply to other races as well. IMHO. I don't see a good argument against a Varisian Dwarf/Catfolk/Half-Orc/Kitsune, etc. If that's the culture around them.
Anyways, any idea when the book will be on store shelves in September?
Except it's not, not by a country mile. It neutered the class. And made it a generic. The con casting was true to an Orc fluff and something no other class did.
Just wanting to have fun, so I've seen plenty of Class this, Race that discussions so why not talk about the combo of the two. What's your favorites?
Mine in no particular order:
1. Catfolk - Inquisitor: Sure they have the penelty to Wis, but cat's are natural hunters, and who hasn't felt like their cat is judging them? I generally pop this out with Desna or Caydean as the deity as both make sense for the freedom and Cats=Chaos idea.
2. Kobold - Ninja: They are small, really sneaky, and love traps and sneak and stab. What's not to love? The fact they are generally adorable mini dragons helps too, vanishing trick, and tail terror feats make them fun as well. One of these days I'm going to build a Sweeper + Kusari-Gama trip build.
3. Gnoll - Paladin: Nothing says holy knight then a near seven foot tall creature normally known for eating people. Also lay on hands to people thinking a gnoll is about to eat them. It was hilarious.
4. Ratfolk - Gunslinger/Wizard: Because Skaven are awesome. If Spell Slinger was better...eh, I still like this, shooting and blasting people with lightning bolts and cloudkill...happy days.
5. Halfling - Cavalier (Order of the Paw): Tiny lancer of doom, with an adorable puppy as a mount. Bonus points if the riding dog can be a...Dire Corgi.
6. Dwarf Wizard -: I like them, Dwarves aren't normally thought of casters but this and Deep Earth Bloodline Sorcerers are so much fun. Dwarf Skald was very close to.
7. Half-Orc Monk: I also like Half-Orc Cleric, but even since 3.5 I've loved playing a big green and mean punching machine.
8. Kitsune Barbarian: Kitsunes are tricksters, kitsune have a str penalty, but you know what? A rabid angry fox to the face hurts. I had an Intimidate build and he was so cool.
9. Lizardfolk - Saurian Shaman: You know dinosaurs are awesome, this is also a class I like playing as a Kobold too, but Lizardfolk have the dino theme more to their side. And like the skaven analogy, Lizardman riding a Carnosaur. Oh yeah. Also fun to summon a T-Rex right onto a ship you are going to pirate...just saying.
10. Dhampir - Oracle of Life: Cause sometimes I like to throw common sense right out the window. Before the errata this would of been Orc-Scarred Witch Doctor, but oh well. This is still a fun build if a bit crazy. Have to get Life Dominate Soul though. Blood Drinker would be fun too if it wasn't considered evil.
(Oops I meant to put this in General Discussion not PFS, can someone move it please?)
Maybe cause my 'errata fu' isn't that good, but to me the only game breaking change is anyone with a half orc scarred witch doctor, as, unless you are allowed to seriously edit the stats around and make them just like every other witch, you have seriously gimped the class.
At least that's with PFS.
Homebrew for my group it's still Orc only (not half orc) and still Con based, but that's another story.
But it really is a shame, it was probably the most unique caster class in the game. If I had one in PFS I'd be asking to just drop the archetype and rebuild to another witch since now it's useless...or at least generic.
Sword Saint is brutal when mixed with a couple levels of Rogue to get minor magic/vanish.
That said how about the Savage Skald Bard, which is so cool but turns out it's 10th lvl performance is useless, and the entire reason for the class got gutted by the much more interesting and better designed Skald.
Should say nick name then I guess. It evolved from a lot of influences and my (overinflated) ego.
Really only my close friends call me Kingman, and those in the furry fandom.
What does your nickname here on Paizo mean?
Why did you pick it?
Why did you pick your avatar?
Because I love catfolk, and want to be one IRL.
I dunno, I don't proscribe to the thought of martial classes lagging behind casters, but I do hear the blather enough that I had this idea.
Make Combat Feats either:
b.) Combat Feats can only be taken if the class gives access to them at the bonus. I.E. Fighter bonus feats, Ranger combat style feats, Cavs at 6s, etc.
This would mean a straight wizard or other caster (except Magus) for example could not have ANY combat feats.
Think that'd stop the whining?
Not about being a better person. ;) But that's getting off topic.
I think Corvus and Myth Lord pretty much echoe most of my thoughts.
I just don't find humans mechanically interesting(or any of core races for that matter) and thematically they aren't that interesting to me since because we are all humans, they are the default and so are the norm you compare weirder stuff to. Sure each of human cultures in game is interesting, but race itself? Not really.
Though I do like Half Orcs
As I said, it's much more interesting to apply the culture across all the races, then lock everything into humans.
No, I read it as people take pride in their work product, as I'm sure Ms. Price does, and to see someone write something negative, something based solely on personal preference, could seem as devaluing work they have put so much into, it's a bit difficult to swallow.
I believe everyone works their backsides off at Paizo, but a statement of personal preference and opinion shouldn't be attacked either. It's not devalueing the work.
But the fact remains humans are WAY over represented, mechanical over powered (or overly flexible really, there isn't an overpowered race under 20rp), and over covered right now. It's nice to have quality products like the ARG, and the Monster Codex, where humans are the blurbs, and the deeper and richer races get some spotlight other then 'rawr monster' which is a category that even the other 'CORE' races get dropped into.
And as I said in response to James Jacobs remarks on the GM needing monsters, nothing has more monstrous potential then a human.
I just don't want to play as one, and really if the option ever came up (never happen but I wish) I'd walk away from humanity to be a catfolk in real life.
Well I'd admit the reason I never play humans, is because unfortunately, no matter how much I beg the cosmos and whatever force maybe listening, in real life I'll probably never be a catfolk.
Because real life no one is anything more then a commoner, or if in a position of power, multiclass noble/commoner. Yet the game can give some 'vague' ideas of stats. My carrying capacity and max lifting I am probably a 13 str. I'm a frickening klutz though, and while not a 'bad' shot with a bow or gun I'm not making marksmen in anything. So Dex 8, I'm pudgy, tough, and stubborn, and survived car wrecks, bullies in school trying to kill me, and tanked a snake bite and have a resistance to poison ivy, so my CON is probably solid 14-15.
I put my foot in my mouth a lot and tend to get talked into doing stupid things by my friends, and me and common sense never see eye to ey, so Wis is a 9 or 10.
I'm college educated, ba degrees in history and political science. And I've always surrounded myself with books, and absorb knowledge like a sponge, so INT is definitely my defining stat in the 16-17 range at least.
My friends like me, and yet I can spur a burning passion of either love or hate, depending on how preachy I get on a subject, so CHA is maybe a 12-13.
If magic existed in the real world I'd of thrown my heart and soul, blood and tears into being a wizard, (probably evoker with some necromancy on the side.)
But as magic sadly doesn't exist I'm just a commoner with a decent INT, who makes furry and fantasy art, and argues on the net about politics and rpgs. :P
Well my gaming group's rule is the armor you are wearing doesn't count for encumberence if you have the proficienty in it. Since that character would be so used to it. Ex: For fighter a plate armor is a second skin. To a wizard it's murder. Now dragging that second and third suit of Dwarven Stoneplate will certainly count.