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Kayerloth's page

Pathfinder Society Member. 848 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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wraithstrike wrote:
I would blindfold the psion so he can not select any guards as targets. Better yet put some iron mask on him with a lock so it does not fall off by accident. :)


I had a character once, a Mystic Theurge, for whom nearly her entire spell list (particularly prior to her mid teen levels) was chosen with the knowledge that a large chunk of it would be used with Still, Silent, or Eschew metamagic applied. One of her favorite ways to enter combat was in Gaseous Form which didn't slow her casting ability much at all. Along with emphasis on "face" skills such as Diplomacy, Bluff and Sense Motive she was a walking nightmare to imprison in anything resembling a normal manner. Of course much of her dangerous nature was because 99+% of the time she wouldn't appear any more dangerous than the next 'joe' so simply knowing who/what you are dealing with is most of the battle.

1) Keep all portions of the cell interior visible to any guard(s) looking in. No corners, no space 'behind' the door, no bunk with sheet to hide under etc..
2) Block LOS ... blind folds, a helm with solid visor, or even just a cloth bag over the head are all very useful and very mundane ways to prevent anything/spells/SLA's being used which require targeting whether an object, creature or point of origin.
3) Do what law enforcement everywhere does, outnumber them!. Got one dangerous prisoner to move/handle do not bring just one, or two, or three guards ... bring 6 or 8 and be prepared to call in backup as needed asap. Guards at range with a bars, walls and windows/arrow slits between should be present as well to freely use attacks at range while protected from melee by said bars, walls and windows should the prisoner attempt anything.
4) Use your "Special Substances and Items": Tanglefoot and Thunderstones etc.. Guy moves 'wrong' and they should be covered in goo at the least.
5) The prisoner should be blind with shackles and manacles every time they leave the cell (or even all the time) and have the prisoner stick his hands/legs/limbs out to place as many restraints as possible on him before the cell door is even unlocked or opened.
6) Unless necessary don't directly handle/touch the prisoner. Use a mancatcher or rabies pole (solid staff with noose) or similar devices, potentially in pairs, so the guards can pull in opposite directions as needed for control. Nothing says the prisoner can't be told to move directly from the cell into a wheeled barred cage to be rolled where ever for questioning, court hearing etc..
7) Drug them into a stupor ... exact game mechanics up to you.

Random thoughts (and therefore probably a bit disorganized):

Suppose you are wandering the Ethereal Plane (or Astral as appropriate) how visible is a demiplane (from the outside looking in so to speak)?

Is it invisible from the Prime Material but visible from whichever plane you created it off of (either the Ethereal or Astral) where you see whatever the boundary you created via the spell exists (i.e. The “walls” and “ceiling” of the plane may appear like solid earth, stone, wood, or water, or they may end in mist, a featureless void, or a similar unreal-looking border)?

Seems to me once you are at the boundary while either Ethereal or Astral all you have to do is 'step over' the boundary to enter the Demiplane. Or how else would those travel spells actually work to enter the Demiplane? Therefore yes you would have to worry about coming home to an invasion party of Xill, Phase Spiders, Githyanki or 'name your GM's favorite Ethereal or Astral foe.' This is probably one strong advantage of using Mage's Magnificent Mansion over Create Demiplane. Sounds like a really good idea to make a real barrier around the perimeter of the Demiplane if this region of the Ethereal or Astral is more active than say western North Dakota. Gets more optional the less paranoid one is and the lower the adjoining population density is. Finding the boundary that correlates if you don't know what fixed point is relative to both is another matter.

The following spells work to enter the Demiplane:
Etherealness (RAW)
Astral Projection (RAW)
Plane Shift (though there's the rather rule contradictory randomness involved) (RAW)
Create Demiplane all 3 versions (maybe)
Shadow Walk (maybe and probably only if off the Ethereal)
Wish and Miracle (RAW)
Anything else I'm missing?

The list to exit is, if anything, shorter as it doesn't by RAW include the Create Demiplane spells. And Astral Projection might be both weirder and better than most of the methods as your 'second' body is now the one wandering about the Material or where ever. Getting ejected works too but this whole thread is about what happens or if you can do that :p (and it's not a separate spell effect either).

The 1 minute/level duration on Etherealness leads me to conclude the location of the demiplane must remain fixed relative to the Material, Astral and the Ethereal or the usefulness of Etherealness to enter the demiplane plummets for the caster or other repeat visitors (and the spell Create Demiplane seems to imply it is useful).

"You are considered “very familiar” with your entire demiplane." And the relevance of this portion of text is? Did they really put this in there just to let us know you could Teleport around inside your Demiplane without going around studying every square inch or is there something more profound I'm missing?

Arachnofiend wrote:
Flawed wrote:

Like i said. Some people only visualize a fighter swinging their weapon regardless of feats, skills, tactics, real game play and then compare it to the wizard who casts spells in a variety of ways, but is still only casting a spell.

Next will be the ways in which a caster shuts down a martial or does everything better. Same story different thread.

Can you explain to me where a Fighter achieves more than "swing the sword"? Because personally I'm a huge sucker for martials and would love to have a sudden revelation that yes, I can have the same amount of narrative power that a 9th level caster gets.

Maybe I'm not picking up on what you mean but the narrative power of the character has, I think, absolutely nothing to do with his class per se. It's about what you (as the player with the GM) choose to go after as a character. While how a wizard or bard goes about gaining a kingdom and castle, for example, is vastly different from how a martial character might go about it the character's goal is essentially the same and both will create a narrative in the process. Or do you mean something else by narrative power?

Hmmm my archer experience is all prior to PF (mostly 3.5) but the short list would be:

Adaptive +1
Distance +1
Ghost Touch +1
Keen +1 (unless have Imp Crit)
Glamered (+4000gp) has to be on the list for my Archer particularly since Called was gutted for his purposes)
Planar +1

I could see my Archer being strongly interested in the following from a concept point of view if nothing else (He had both cleric and ranger levels and was the party's scout).
Grayflame +1
Huntsman +1
Stalking +2

I see Called has been substantially altered from previous, a 100 foot range would have made it all but useless for my Archer.

And a Phase Locking, Anchoring, Greater Designating I could see as interesting to be carrying around for those "special targets". Heck add in Spell Storing and he'd store Status in it for real thematic overkill.

Well from my Loremaster's point of view who's he going to target with that Heroism/Greater Heroism or Haste or you get the idea (you've been there). Plenty of my spells are intended to buff (with both offense and defense in mind) the more martially inclined in my group. Those buffs are generally longer term so I can't really do the same thing readily with summons or I'd be buffing during combat rather than laying down pain or control (be it the foes or the environment).

Now my 'Archer' was the party scout and while he thoroughly enjoyed the heck out of the buffs often available to him from his party's typical casters (a wizard, cleric and bard) he didn't require them to fill his role. Invisibility vs his Stealth > honestly he'd be screwed if he had relied on Invisibility to do the job. Too many foes at higher levels can readily counter/handle Invisible foes, not as easily can they counter high levels of raw skill plus equipment/items. Could a wizard do it (replace me), probably but I doubt he could do it as well without seriously sacrificing elsewhere and the build certainly wouldn't qualify as a 'typical wizard' build (and even then I'd have to see it in play to really be convinced ... and that's from someone who generally loves a high level caster and has played several).

Ravingdork wrote:
Melvin: What differentiates a demiplanes from a bag of holding or a handy haversack is that the former is an extradimensional space whereas the latter is a nondimensional space.

@RD - You seem to be reading a different meaning into the part I quoted above from the CRB section on Magic Items>Extradimensional Spaces. I read that and get that all 3 are extradimensional spaces.

@Melvin - Go for it. Better yet just allow the caster and anyone else present with the caster when they entered to voluntarily exit back to where they were when they entered even without being "ejected". Just make it a one time one way trip (per casting of Create Demiplane) and I doubt any real balance issues would crop up. And save ejecting randomly for those who the caster wishes to throw out of his plane.

[Sarcasm]Crazy spell allowing the caster to create an extradimensional space which requires interplanar travel to otherwise enter or leave when said caster isn't even capable of learning an interplanar travel spell that is instantaneous, accurate and precise at that level :D Sounds like a wizard finally outsmarted himself and created his own oubliette[/Sarcasm]

Peet wrote:
seebs wrote:
I don't think create demiplane lets you travel to an existing plane. Yes, sorcerers will need scrolls or something else. But then, it would be a really bad idea for a sorcerer to spend a known-spells slot on something so rarely-used. That's why you get things like the mnemonic vestment.

As I pointed out though, you can`t use plane shift either without a forked rod attuned to that demiplane. Where do you get one? How can you make one? Strictly speaking, you can`t. So plane shift won`t work without the GM hand-waving that requirement. False Focus, Blood Money, and Eschew Materials all allow you to ignore requirements for material components, but not for foci.

Presumably you get the tuning fork the same place one gets M and F components. More to the question is how you know which tuning fork to obtain (or craft more likely) as if my memory serves me it is said (historically) to be the tone generated by the fork which determines where it goes ... so there are literally an infinite number of possible forks. The game and any associated mechanics/rules sort of don't exist/ignore/handwave away that particular issue. Not sure why you think one couldn't make the correct tuning fork however. GM fires up his imagination and generates appropriate skill check(s) or other mechanic(s). Mine would involve Knowledge(Arcana) and/or Knowledge(Planes) most likely.

As for invaders coming in via Etherealness or Astral Travel that is presumable the most common reason for even needing the line about ejecting a creature from your demiplane as the vast majority of invited guests within your abode are probably not really plotting to take over your demiplane and suddenly need ejecting. Fashion your demiplane's interior with this in mind. Be careful to check whether nesting a demiplane within another is feesible for your GM ... it gets into how an extradimensional space acts within another extradimensional space aka the whole Bag of Holding with a Handy Haversack conundrum:

Magic Item, CRB wrote:
A number of spells and magic items utilize extradimensional spaces, such as rope trick, a bag of holding, a handy haversack, and a portable hole. These spells and magic items create a tiny pocket space that does not exist in any dimension. Such items do not function, however, inside another extradimensional space. If placed inside such a space, they cease to function until removed from the extradimensional space. For example, if a bag of holding is brought into a rope trick, the contents of the bag of holding become inaccessible until the bag of holding is taken outside the rope trick. The only exception to this is when a bag of holding and a portable hole interact, forming a rift to the Astral Plane, as noted in their descriptions.

And before anyone pops in and says 'but a demiplane is not an extradimensional space' I give you this that I rediscovered this morning (again the bolding is mine):

CRB, Environment, The Planes wrote:
Demiplanes: This catchall category covers all extradimensional spaces that function like planes but have measurable size and limited access. Other kinds of planes are theoretically infinite in size, but a demiplane might be only a few hundred feet across. There are countless demiplanes adrift in reality, and while most are connected to the Astral Plane and Ethereal Plane, some are cut off entirely from the transitive planes and can only be accessed by well-hidden portals or obscure magic spells.

I'd tend to roll separate rolls for each monster unless fighting very large numbers of foes (in which case I tend towards some sort of grouping up for rolls).

I agree with James (and Majuba), I don't recall a RAW response.

I would do so (roll individually) because a single roll, unless you use a very large variety of foes with varying SR will tend towards make any single encounter binary ... the caster will either beat all the creatures SR or none of the creatures SR. I think this binary outcome is less desirable and will have more impact on the adventure. I think treating Saves similarly has less impact because spells tend to have their binary nature more inherently mitigated by their effects (and by situational modifiers of which there are essentially none for SR). But even with Saves I like to avoid binary results (Reflex is often partial while outside of Mass versions Fort and Will based saves tend to be single target anyway and written with this binary nature in mind).

Yes but where in Disney Land? :p

A Space or not a space - Demiplane, Mansion, Maze, Pit and Rope Trick (etc):

tangent on extradimensional ummm 'stuff':

Saying it is not an extradimensional space is potentially rather semantic if otherwise accurate. It calls itself an extradimensional demiplane, the Mage's Magnificent Mansion is called an extradimensional mansion, Maze calls itself an extradimensional labyrinth and Create Pit uses the term extradimensional hole. I'm going to go out on a limb and say all these extradimensional 'places' are what the Rope Trick spell is calling the 'usual multiverse of extradimensional spaces" (which it then annoyingly calls itself outside of ... really? really! Fun with cosmology 'spaces', and fanciful descriptive 'fluff?' text.

You potentially could attempt to Plane Shift into the space created by the Rope Trick spell (bolding mine). I'm just glad it didn't call itself an extradimensional non-space :p

CRB Rope Trick wrote:
... The upper end is, in fact, fastened to an extradimensional space that is outside the usual multiverse of extradimensional spaces. Creatures in the extradimensional space are hidden, beyond the reach of spells (including divinations), unless those spells work across planes. ...

It's fairly clear, I think, that you can Plane Shift into the demiplane (RAI). Of course, unless you've been spending a long long long time casting permanent Create Demiplane spells to enlarge the original demiplane I don't know how the heck you can end up both on the demiplane but also deal with the random 5 to 500 miles 'off target' you are supposed to be after casting Plane Shift (except of course what 99.99% of GM's must do?? and simply ignore the random 'error' of Plane Shift when used to enter the demiplane) And Plane Shift faces the same issue if used to enter a Rope Trick for that matter (along with coming up with the correct F component, a tuning fork, rather quickly).

Do you have any allies or someone in town who might help if alerted to problems by your Maid? Any favors you could call in for example. I tend to agree with the other posters, your magical options especially to cover you for potentially several days when you are not around are few, even with access to both Permanency and Extend.

Permanency Alarm - need to remain within a mile (or less) to get a mental ping. Even more limited range if the audible alert is chosen. But it could alert the Maid who could then get help.

Secret Chest has the duration to be potentially useful to you but doesn't really help with 'fortifying the homebase'

Might be able to do something interesting with Shrink Item but it only works on mundane items (which the Sword McGuffin isn't I'm thinking) ... but depending on your DM a huge pile of gold or a smaller pile within a locked mundane chest may constitute a single item (much the way a fire and its fuel are a single item). A shrunken cloth-like item is much easier to hide mundanely I expect than a huge mound of coinage. Shrink Item's 1 day/level duration makes it much more useful than many of the 1 hour/level spells for someone who's out and about rather than playing guardian. Might be amusing to place the "cloth-like Shrink Item" as a hanging 'anti-invisibility' curtain in a doorway in plain sight to all :)

Permanency Invisibility on a mundane trap might both slow the foes down thinking its a magical trap and or make said trap harder to detect in the first place. The 'sudden' appearance of the trap (or other object) caused by the intruders messing around might in turn trigger a Magic Mouth to do its thing aka an 'Alarm"' spell with more duration (without the cost of Permanency). But again doesn't help much except perhaps to alert the Maid to intruders perhaps.

Unfamiliar with Mythic for the most part, so unsure what if anything your Mythic 1 tier could do for you but others might if you could relate what it does.

Mirage Arcana falls into the same issue as many other spells. The duration limits its usefulness to someone unable to be around to refresh it. Persistent Image gets around the duration issue but you'd have to figure out how to use it to set up an unwanted intruder and not kill off the maid or other innocent guest/visitor in the process since this is an active home residence not some dank remote dungeon (unless you left off some details about personal issues :p).

Melvin the Mediocre wrote:
I'm familiar with makes magnificient mansion, it's a level higher with some great benefits. Using lesser demi plane for a quiet place to craft is not much different than crafting in a hotel room. It doesn't give you access to tools or e resources you will need.

What class are you? They are both (Create Lesser Demiplane and Mage's Magnificent Mansion) 7th level wizard/sorcerer spells (with the Create Demiplane family also available to clerics, witches and summoners) and neither comes equipped with the stuff necessary to craft items ... but the Demiplane lasts long enough, particularly Extended, that with some effort you could get a workshop set up. And you can cast the Demiplane spell again specifically to extend the duration. It's effectively permanent if the caster has access to it every week or so minimum. No such language exists in the MMM text. And you are far less likely to get interrupted in a private extradimensional space i.e demiplane than you would be holed up in a local Inn I would imagine. Then again maybe the locals are apt to leave the wizard with the "Do NOT Disturb" sign on the door alone, ymmv and all.

Melvin the Mediocre wrote:
Maze is an extra dimensional space, like rope trick and pit spells, so it doesn't offer much guidance for a demiplane.

So is your private demiplane, the other higher level versions of the Create Demiplane family and the Mage's Magnificent Mansion. They are all extradimensional spaces. Some of these extradimensional spaces have obvious exits others do not.

As I said above if I were the DM I'd send an Ejected target (and I totally agree with Diekssus impression of the intent and meaning of the word 'eject/ejected') out via a Plane Shift type effect (so randomly within 5 to 500 miles ). The only real question for me is 5 to 500 miles of where and I'd lean heavily towards the point from where they entered the demiplane. But I'm not your DM, they are the ones (or you are if you are the DM) who gets the final say on how it works. I also admit I'd probably just look the other way and handwave the caster the ability to drop himself more precisely back at his original point of entry at least or until the caster seemed inclined to use the ejection (aka eviction) property as more of a offensive weapon than I believe the spirit of the spell intends. And again I don't see a RAW answer to the question you original posted, it's the DM's call.

Peet has an interesting point to about the ability to cast Create Demiplane and add to the area of the first (and using it to travel to the demiplane in the process). Though I will point out by RAW you can only add to the existing Demiplane if you are already within the demiplane when you cast additional versions of Create Demiplane

So now we are dealing with finite planes that are pockets of extradimensional space off the rather extensively coexistent and infinite Ethereal and Astral planes. Probably only time travel will involve as many or more headache generating (but highly fascinating) possibilities

And don't forget if on your person, the wand gets to use your Will save bonus unless it's own Will save bonus is better.

Melvin the Mediocre wrote:
What bother me about the random ejection is that it really limits the usefulness of the spell. I always assumed that the purpose of the spell was along the lines of a high level camping spell like rope trick, but if you are going to be shunted out hundreds of miles from where you started, that won't work. What else would you do with the spell?

No that would be Mages Magnificent Mansion, it's the overnight 'camping' spell of the rich and shamelessly high level. I was also speaking only to the subject of someone who is evicted by the caster of the Create Demiplane. Voluntarily leaving is another thing and leaving (voluntarily) an extradimensional space via spells is not easy as it involves being capable of interplanar travel AFAIK. Being evicted is not generally a voluntary thing.

What can it do that Mages Magnificent Mansion can't do? First thing that comes to mind is crafting. Need a couple weeks of uninterrupted peace and quiet to craft, study or what not. It's duration even without Permanency or recast is vastly longer (day/level vs 2 hr/level) It also can not be dispelled. Only Limited Wish, Wish, Miracle or Disjunction used by someone on the demiplane can destroy the demiplane.

Melvin the Mediocre wrote:
I admit I *WANT* the answer to be you return from where you entered, so that we can plane shift into it at night, and eject ourselves out when it is time to restart the adventure.

Worst case if it does randomly expel you all you would need is to prepare the appropriate Teleportation spell on top of 'evicting' yourself.

Melvin the Mediocre wrote:
The reason I don't think we can assume that to be the case is that creatures need not enter it from the same plane that they will be ejected to.

Indeed it could be from vastly different (as in from differing planes) places several days apart in time (potentially relativistic time) and independent on whether the caster or anyone else is even within the demiplane when they do so.

Melvin the Mediocre wrote:

Another reason random doesn't seem correct is that it seems the sort of thing that would be in the description of the spell if it were the case. Likewise, if the ejector chose where the ejectees went, that should be in the description as well. That leaves me thinking that my choices of a, b, or d are most likely to be correct.

But which?

Your 'a' and 'b' are basically my #1 and #3 options.

And I agree, ideally it ought to give a bit more detail as to what happens when you evict someone but it doesn't. I don't however think the caster should have any control over where the evicted target goes as that could lead to abuse of what is intended of the spell -> sends the target to the middle of the nearest volcano, for example. Eviction is not intended, imo, to send the target somewhere specifically harmful but to get them off your private demiplane. It's a defensive power not an offensive one as I read it.

Beyond all the above there is the text in the Maze spell. It's evidence in favor of returning the evicted target to where the eviction target was prior to entering the demiplane (i.e. where the target was when it cast the spell/used the ability that allowed it to enter the demiplane):

Maze spell" wrote:
On escaping or leaving the maze, the subject reappears where it had been when the maze spell was cast. If this location is filled with a solid object, the subject appears in the nearest open space. Spells and abilities that move a creature within a plane, such as teleport and dimension door, do not help a creature escape a maze spell, although a plane shift spell allows it to exit to whatever plane is designated in that spell. Minotaurs are not affected by this spell.

EDIT to add:

Note that most 'similar' powers also give no indication of where the target ends up. Dismissal, Banishment, Holy Word ... all send extraplanar creatures "home" or "away" but make absolutely no mention of where they specifically go when they do so. It was not considered relevant when the spell was originally designed. I'm guessing the eviction ability written into Create Demiplane is essentially the same intent > "the unwanted creature is gone, xp and loot awarded, next!" It's going to be entirely in the hands of the GM.

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Assuming its a magical effect truly equivalent to Stinking Cloud then yes as soon as they attempt to enter the Cloud they would need to save. As far as when, it would be on their turn when they attempt to enter the Cloud and unless they made the save I'd probably stop their movement in the square prior to where they attempted to enter the Cloud though I am unsure if this is RAW (the movement part).

I wouldn't be surprised if there's more elsewhere (such as in UM) but this is what the CRB has to say about it. Under Magic>Adding to a Wizards Spellbook>Independent Research and under Divine Spells>New Divine Spells>Independent Research. It's very basic and mostly leaves it up to the individual campaign/GM.

CRB, Arcane wrote:
Independent Research: A wizard can also research a spell independently, duplicating an existing spell or creating an entirely new one. The cost to research a new spell, and the time required, are left up to GM discretion, but it should probably take at least 1 week and cost at least 1,000 gp per level of the spell to be researched. This should also require a number of Spellcraft and Knowledge (arcana) checks.
CRB, Divine wrote:
Independent Research: A divine spellcaster can also research a spell independently, much as an arcane spellcaster can. Only the creator of such a spell can prepare and cast it, unless she decides to share it with others.

Claxon wrote:
Actually Kayerloth, I think your option 2 or 4 is more viable from a balanced standpoint. No one would be able to control exactly where you came out and you could not turn ejecting someone into a trap.

Yep, I also think a Plane Shift vs a Teleport effect (even if you were to treat it as an auto Mishap result etc.) makes more sense thematically given how the Create Lesser Demiplane describes how the caster and company may initially enter the demiplane.

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Bottom line is I don't think the rules actually cover what happens and leave it up to the DM/individual campaign. So ask your GM. With that in mind here's a couple potential solutions:

1) Dumps them back to the place where the caster was when he cast the Create Demiplane (Spook205's resolution).
2) As above but treat it as though the ejected creature failed a save vs Plane Shift (which means they'll appear somewhere between 5 and 500 miles from where you were when you cast Create Demiplane)
3) The ejected creature is sent back to where they were when they cast the spell needed to enter your Demiplane (which may or may not be where you initially cast the Create Demiplane spell).
4) As above but the location is as if they were ejected via Plane Shift.
5) Other: probably several other methods or rulings could be invented.

Personally while it might be a bit 'evil grin' humorous to drop them back into your prime material home I'm thinking I'd probably go with #4 above as it removes control over where (for both caster and the evicted) while not making the ability hampered as a defensive measure for the caster of Create Demiplane by dumping them back into their prime material homebase.

Couple thoughts on the whole range targeting thing for Fireballs etc.
First it is a game.
Second let me tell you about a few football quarterbacks or basketball players (etc.etc.). Yes they don't know it's 37.89 feet to the hoop but I can pretty much bet Magic Johnson and his peers can and do throw an object through a hoop on the move 'in combat' without needing a ballistic computer to do so. Ditto for throwing a football down field threading it through multiple defenders to hit their target on a dead run sometimes with multiple guys pulling them over backwards.

The human brain is, in fact, a very remarkable ballistic computer at judging such issues, our very primitive cave man lives depended on it. "Sorry dear no food again today I missed the rabbit/squirrel/deer/pheasant"

insaneogeddon wrote:
I heard an argument for greater spell immunity working against it RAW in a gaming shop but I had someplace to be.

My brain kind of went there too. But it won't work, what spell exactly are you immune to >>> the only thing you'll do is make it impossible for the duration (of Greater Spell Immunity) to be equally protected by Mind Blank as the foe you are trying to locate.

Best bet is along the lines of what Artanthos suggests if trying to find someone not wishing to be located. The person using Mind Blank, of course, could be taking further magical measures to make mundane methods more difficult i.e. Pass without Trace, Veil, Seeming etc. but his general point stands.

Stand up from Prone is listed as a Move Action on Table: Actions in Combat.

And as far as I know yes you would still be considered prone for those AoO's. You have not yet completed the action which is drawing the AoO.

Who or what, if anything or anyone, are you concerned about coming after you or the 'loot'? If it is no one specific then I'd keep the traps and spells more minimal and as non-magical as possible (especially since recasting things sounds like it might be an issue). No use lighting up the place like a christmas tree and having anyone wandering by wondering what is so warded? If you have some specific rivals or foes after you or the McGuffins then knowing more about them and their abilities and resources would help with more specific advice. What are the McGuffins (a book, a sword, piece of jewelry, a large statue, the 'golden child')?
Do you have Extend?

Otherwise a well locked and mundanely trapped secret door to a secret room, lead line and locked chest buried within the room. Walls to the room of thick worked stone to resist using spells against the wall and to detect/see within the room.

Even if she doesn't know about the traps I'd give the maid some specific set of instructions on what to do if someone does come calling while you are out ... i.e. "go to so and so for help" or "run to a local caster and give him this package" (which contains sufficient coin to cast, as an example, a Sending spell to you.


As I started to think about that I figured he should make it homey, and so I thought it should be formed like a pyramid with a decanter of endless water shooting a 20 foot geyser strait into the air in the 30 foot tall center. That water could be formed into a happy little stream and a pond, except I was wondering if there would be anyway to destroy the water when it gets to a certain location. Anyone have ideas?

To be honest I'd probably just handwave it away and assume it got absorbed by the plane or shunted back to the Decanter or whatever else works for you without conveying any real additional advantage. Anything more and you are on the slippery slope of science/realism in a very small biosphere. In other words what amounts to the Rule of Cool where cool is having a fountain on you demiplane.

The only real concern is not stepping on the toes of a more powerful version of the spell i.e. the Bountiful property of Create Demiplane etc. without more work and spells beyond the casting of Lesser Demiplane.

Fastest food source would be magical or imported. Create Food and Water or maybe some berry bushes to supply the needs of a Goodberry spell.

Given the above quote by Jeraa that means your 10ft burst is a 20ft diameter or most closely resembles a 20ft square missing the 5ft square corners. See the section on CRB>Magic>Casting Spell (scroll down to )>Aiming A Spell.


The original is very deadly particularly against newer players (players not used to high level play) or players whose characters aren't very much organized and team oriented. And part of the deadliness comes from the fact that it aims to test the players as much if not more than their characters. Results are not based on saving throws or skill checks but rather on what the player actually decides to do. Though in many cases that is because that is how it was done back then, there were no or few such game mechanics in place it was more about how the DM presented or handled such things in their own campaign.

Return to the Tomb can be every bit as deadly but is considerable larger overall adventure as the original Tomb is merely a portion of the much more complete adventure laid out in Return. Even updated into 3.5 or PF (Return first came out just prior to the release of 3.0) it should be a nasty dungeon meant only for characters of very high level (Hint: as in it has the first appearance of some monsters which weren't otherwise published in 3.0 until the Epic Level Handbook was released)

Winter Wight and Umbral Blot to name two I can recall offhand

Rynjin wrote:
Thelemic_Noun wrote:
Clerics can't leave slots open. Only arcane prepared casters can.
I'm scratching my head trying to figure out where you got this notion.

Probably as a result of the contradiction of logic in

1) "A divine spellcaster selects and prepares spells ahead of time through prayer and meditation at a particular time of day." and
2) "Later during that day, she can repeat the preparation process as often as she likes. During these extra sessions of preparation, she can fill these unused spell slots."

Rendering the 'particular time' kind of moot fluff rather than a concrete difference enhancing the way in which a cleric or other divine caster gets (or rather receives) their spells.

It's the end of the Gamemastering section and entitled "Beyond 20th Level" And is fairly minimal set of suggestions when compared to Mythic or 3.0/3.5 Epic rules.

Spells I've used excluding the ones on RD's list to avoid repetition: Status, Detect Scrying, Private Sanctum (often paired with having Secure Shelter memorized), Telepathic Bond (permanency), Nondetection.

And some depending on circumstance in the campaign at the time: False Vision and/or Screen, Seeming, Veil, Sequester and Instant Summons.

And a few used with Extend: Stoneskin, Protection from Energy, Prismatic Sphere, Greater Spell Immunity/Spell Immunity, Foresight, Protection from Spells.

TarkXT wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:
Will your treatise include an exposition on How To Run Away and get away with it?
It's easier without minstrels.

Only if Robin ... errr you are slower than the minstrels as can happen if or when you are fresh out of coconuts. So make sure to have a good supply of coconuts when questing.

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Ganryu wrote:

Good idea!

The spell cap is not clear though. It says there's a max cap on part or the whole of the spell.

There are two interpretations.

1: The cap in on the total HP gained such that it cannot exceed 10.

2: The cap is on the bonus part to the roll such that you always gain 1d10 + lvl where lvl is capped at 10. (but a 10 + 10 roll is possible)

Don't see an answer to this in the thread yet so yes it is number 2. The cap refers to the caster level portion of the spell not the grand total.

Ascalaphus wrote:
I'd use conditions for being significantly drunk but still able to act (Sickened) or being totally wasted (Nauseated).

Overall I'd take an approach along these lines. I might be inclined to change Nauseated to Sickened and Staggered (with either of the drunken states yielding Fort saves (DC to be decided) to avoid becoming Nauseated for some a brief time ... probably before passing out). And while I might not directly penalize or modify Wisdom/Will saves the effect of Sickened will be there.

No they cannot tell who the owner of the Scrying sensor is.


  • If the party has Detect Scrying available they may be able to see/counter-Scry the scryer per the Detect Scrying spell.
    If the scrying attempt originates within the area, you also know its location; otherwise, you and the scrier immediately make opposed caster level checks (1d20 + caster level). If you at least match the scrier's result, you get a visual image of the scrier and an accurate sense of his direction and distance from you.
  • In addition to Locate Object, Discern Location (if a bit of a high level spell), would yield the current location of the hand ... the hand, of course, may be changing location quickly or not depending on what's going on in the campaign.
  • If I were the NPC I might be concerned the party may be using the hand for Scrying me and take precautions ... a chunk of tissue, aka a hand, is at least as good as having some hair for Scrying purposes if the party was so inclined.
  • Nondetection could be used on the hand to make divination (scrying) potentially fail. While it doesn't explicitly say so in the spell description I think in a home campaign setting it would not be unreasonable to give the hand's owner a bonus to the opposed CL check on the Nondetection (roughly countering the current possessors 'bonus')
  • If smart the party will drop that hand in the nearest lead lined container if they intend to keep it for any length of time which would put an end to most divination attempts to find the hand

  • Greater Spell Immunity
  • Spell Turning
  • Moment of Prescience to boost your Fort save
  • Protection from Spells (thinking that ought to be worth another +3 onto your Fort save, assuming a +5 Resistance bonus at the time)
  • Block the targeting -> various Wall or Fog/Cloud spells to block the ability to target. Just keep in mind your foe is a high level caster who is aware of how the spell can be blocked ... he's all too likely going to be ready to deal with LOS getting blocked
  • Polymorph or shape changing spell to become not "Living"
  • S p r e a d O u t even more than normal, try to make it difficult to hit all of the party with one HR (all targets must be within 60 ft of each other)
  • Counter spelling
  • Rod of Absorption
  • Staff of the Magi, an artifact, can also absorb spells
  • Antimagic Field or Spellbane. Note that Antimagic Field is "D" for Dismissible

I'm also in agreement with Treatmonk, I wouldn't worry or invest too much effort in avoiding getting nailed by even multiple Horrid Wiltings any more than I'd over worry about getting blasted by Fireball ... if the DC's are truly ugly then Feeblemind and other nasty SoS spells are more likely to end ugly (or a Dazing Persistent 'spell of choice here' etc. etc.)

Frankly the Dazing feat (or evidence he possesses the feat) attached to something with an ugly DC would cause my Loremaster more sleepless nights than something causing straight forward damage to me even if it isn't elemental damage and thereby resistable. And as others have pointed out damage can be Healed ... and Mass Heal can certainly hammer his undead minions while undoing damage done to the party.

PS: @Mojorat - Ring of Counterspells is a very nice item but unless its changed it only works against 6th level and lower spells. My choice as I recall it was usually set against Disintegrate, Feeblemind or Greater Dispel Magic depending on what I knew about my potential foe(s) for my Loremaster.

Hrothdane wrote:

One of the nice qualities of true strike is that it ignores concealment, which I see people often forget.

When faced with gaze attacks, my magus has occasionally just closed his eyes and done spell combat true strike.

If you pinpoint the square with an invisible creature, you can true strike and shoot a dye arrow at them, or throw a bag of flour.

My Loremaster most often used it to ignore concealment, typically while using a ranged touch attack (the +20 is nice but often overkill with touch attacks). So I'd be looking for ways to be able to cause concealment when I needed to hinder my foes (for greater self protection) and then use the True Strike to ignore the concealment. Most (All?) of the above tactics/Combat Maneuvers could be executed under concealment just as readily as under 'normal' conditions with True Strike in play.

I don't really have the system knowledge of PF vs 3.5 but here's some thoughts based on fairly extensive 3.5 experience doing exactly what you describe (the rules may change, the role does not):

Beyond what you already have noted ->> Abilities Wisdom, Dexterity and Intelligence (you need skill points) roughly in that order with Wis and Dex your big ones.

I like Scavion's approach to get Hide in Plain Sight. One thing that I wonder about is what advantage does it convey after you've started trashing trolls or whatever in the rear? You don't have sneak or other ambush type attacks requiring a stealthy state as a pure caster do you? Planning on engaging in hit and run tactics? BBT's choice of Dark Tapestry has more obvious skill benefits (and the Brain Drain power looks useful and unpleasant).

Darkvision a plus whether via spells, items or natural. Don't know what level you expect to play to but keep in mind you'll have things like Deeper Darkness and True Seeing on your spell list down the road.

Light (mithral) or no armor to minimize penalties to mobility and Stealth. Probably want to think about Stealth enhancements to armor.

I found Quicken Spell (I had a Lesser Rod early on then the feat later) to be useful as I got to higher levels (3.5 character) to both rapidly buff myself (Quicken Divine Favor, Divine Power 'I'm ready') and to avoid needing to worrying about AoO's when casting often while relatively alone and isolated from the party. And by that I mean my character may have used his Travel domain powers and or Stealth aka (Hide, Move Silent) to get to the rear to take out the guards and free the captive(s), grab the mcguffin, slay the archers, or whatever while the party was 100 ft or more away fighting the bulk of the foes and couldn't easily aid me if it got a bit hairy. He was also an archer so once finished he could turn and attack readily without having to move back to the group to do so (and is probably another reason I went to Dex over Str).

As noted the Travel domain powers very useful for enhancing mobility. Nothing like Dimension Door or Teleport to go right past all that commotion between you and your goal/target(s). Also useful for bringing that meatshield (errr companion) along to deal with mooks while you deal with the searching/traps/lock(s) or short term buffs/debuffs or what not (and keeping you just a wee bit less isolated).

Never built a Druid along these lines but I can see a lot of potential there as well with Wildshaping, ability to summon your own support, animal companion etc.

Life interrupts be back in a bit

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Thanks for the info Cheapy. Going to have to read through that thread and mull it over a bit I imagine.

Cheapy wrote:

The FAQ linked says this:

Note that at spell that fires multiple simultaneous rays, such as scorching ray, only provokes one AOO for making the ranged attack instead of one AOO for each ranged attack.

This sets up scorching ray as the exception to the rule that you provoke each time.

Also, I'm not seeing a monster called Shohbad anywhere?

Yes but, as the archer, I'm also not using those multiple attacks "simultaneously" either.

EDIT to add in:
I think the Scorching Rays example/FAQ is more an indication that multiple attacks rolls (necessitated by multiple targets) is in itself not sufficient to cause multiple 'opportunities' and hence AoO's. It seems to be a question of when is a separate action also a separate opportunity (and opportunity is not a game term, merely an english word currently with a normal meaning).

Does employing Rapid Shot draw 2 AoO's? Multiple Magic Missiles? Manyshot? (Yes apparently, No rather obviously, and ???)

Interesting though playing the devil's advocate I'll point out that in the above archer example you are taking a single Full Attack Action not multiple Attack Actions (anymore than you are using multiple Move Actions to cross multiple 5 foot squares) while your caster is using two separately listed actions - Cast a spell and an Attack Action (ranged).

Would you draw 6 AoO's for using a touch spell to touch 6 allies in a single round, (sounds like yes given the above, which to me sounds excessive)?

Yep much like the original author you are going to just have to pick a number/value that seems right and go with it working in conjunction with your GM.

I would agree with the thinking behind Pupsocket's suggestion (and hence Tomos' post as well). I know typically my wizard used True Strike not so much for the huge to hit bonus but to negate the miss chance as really it's not usually all that hard to hit most creatures Touch AC. Hence this is a 'real' drawback worth a real discount. Note that this +20 bonus also works only for a ranged attack. An actual True Strike spell buffs your next attack, melee or ranged.

Or roughly 9000gp for the Quickened True Strike lacking the Miss Chance negate and for a ranged attack only.
+ 2000gp for the deflection vs ranged The author may have not worried overly about reducing it owing to ranged only ... as the Bracers were intended and best serve to be worn by someone attacking and being attacked at range which amounts to a very minimal drawback vs a normal +1 deflection. And this leaves +2800gp for the cost of the constant DR 5/magic again vs ranged only *shrug* which smells a lot like a judgement call on the author's part but then taken as a whole the item is rather a judgement call when it comes to cost.

Dotting for now. Interesting potential indeed.

Sebastian wrote:
Craig1234 wrote:

We have a Rogue, Monk, Sorcerer, and Cleric

Ah - a rogue will shine in that type of party. Clerics don't do much damage by design, Sorcerers don't get impressive until the higher levels (and, even then, they often rely on spells that impair/cripple targets rather than do damages), and Monks trade raw damage for tricks like stunning an greater mobility.

It's not uncommon in my gaming groups (particularly at lower levels) to have a single melee-oriented charcter (often a barbarian) dishing out most of the damage and the remainder of the party working to enable/protect that character.

Yup and your rogue is likely going to continue to shine more than "normal" and into higher levels owing to party makeup namely the lack of a full BAB character.

Huge undead/quasi-construct spider's abdomen?

Questions for both answering and provoking thought -
Who built it particularly if a "quasi-construct"? Why is it currently unguarded? Is it a 'commonly' used travel route by other denizens or has it fallen into disuse (and if so why?)? Who will be at the other end and who are the common intelligent foes at the bottom? Is a 'straight' drop or are there 'stops' along the way? Does the construct elevator sometimes move through horizontal space or across the ceiling (spiderlike) over "whatever" rather than a single long straight drop?

Phase Spiders
Earth Elementals
Mimic (portion of the elevator maybe)
Gelatinous Cube (blocking the descent or dropping on top of the elevator)
Oozes (much like the Cube dropping in for a snack)
A natural event

  • quake
  • rockslide
  • waterfall (that's highly acidic, very hot or very cold)
  • thermal vents

Maintenance Worker(s) whether constructs, undead (or even 'undead quasi-contructs') placed by the original builder.
Rust Monster (is any, most or all of the elevator metallic?)

What blahpers, Imbicatus and others have said. Rare dead magic or antimagic is probably a cool thing to amp up the difficulty and provide story at high levels. If it's common then it smells of GM cheesiness and a bit of lazy unless the campaign background from the get go somehow explains it and the players are aware from the start that this is so.

I wouldn't expect many monarchs to use Antimagic as permanent warding feature for their living and working quarters (a storage/treasure vault maybe). There are usually better options spell wise -> Private Sanctum, False Vision, Alarm, Phase Door, Forbiddance, etc. which can be made Permanent. And typically, as wealthy and powerful individuals, using magic (or hiring magic wielding help) is to their advantage against almost everyone else.

As eluded to sneak attack tends to be very good when it works. A Rogue will have to apply increasing amounts of effort to obtain sneak attack as the campaign level increases. Increasingly the creatures encountered will be immune to sneak attack, or immune or otherwise able to bypass the conditions which make sneak attack possible (better senses such as blindsight, blindsense or even just darkvision, Improved Uncanny Dodge etc.). And I'd say this all probably is just barely getting started around 5th or 6th level where you previously peaked with the beginner set.

It can also be somewhat campaign related. A heavily urban campaign with mostly humanoid opponents will potentially offset this in the Rogues favor as overall he will be seeing more opponents who are vulnerable to sneak. Conversely if the campaign focuses more on, for example, Elementals he'll be facing less opponents vulnerable to sneak. Aim for a happy middle ground where everyone, players and GM, are having fun. Where the Rogue gets to sneak, the fighter gets to wade into and mow through critters, the arcanist gets to not worry about SR and can 'melt a car' with his fireball, they just don't get to do it 24-7 with ease.

What Aureate said ... considering it wasn't possible at all prior to PF without DM fiat or home rules.

They also have a few advantages especially over wands.
1) They use the caster's ability score and feats for setting the DC.
2) Use the caster's level for damage and other relevant factors if higher than the Staff's inherent level.
- The above two make it much better for a high level caster. DC 20+ for a Fireball vs DC 14 yes please, never mind for spells that do not do damage. Consider an enchantment/charm spell such as Hold Person in a Wand vs Staff for instance or debuffing spells.
3) Pretty much means the caster is always armed, not unarmed. Though I suppose strictly speaking not all staves are considered quarterstaves and therefore a weapon/weapon quality.

What Propsken said. Weapon enhancement bonuses cap at +5 with additionally weapon properties capable of tacking on another +5 for a total of no more than +10 (footnotes #2, #3 (ranged) and #4(melee) in the respective tables under 'Weapons' in the magic item tables)

CRB wrote:

2 A weapon can't have an enhancement bonus higher than +5. Use these lines to determine price when special abilities are added in.

3 Reroll if you get a duplicate special ability, an ability incompatible with an ability that you've already rolled, or if the extra ability puts you over the +10 limit. A weapon's enhancement bonus and special ability bonus equivalents can't total more than +10.

4 Reroll if you get a duplicate special ability, an ability incompatible with an ability that you've already rolled, or if the extra ability puts you over the +10 limit. A weapon's enhancement bonus and special ability bonus equivalents can't total more than +10.

EDIT: Recently there was a thread discussing what would happen (or how to decide what got supressed etc.) if you had a +1 weapon with +9 abilities added on that then became the target of a Greater Magic Weapon spell ... I've lost track of that thread.

Tomos wrote:

Some good suggestions in here so far.

I offer a couple of corrections though:
No matter what your UMD bonus is, you never "succeed with ANY wand without rolling." You must roll each time you activate a magic item of a spell that is not on your class list. If your total is 20, but you rolled a 1, you fail and you can't try to use that particular item again for 24 hours.
This SUCKS with cure wands and it does happen, so I suggest you keep that in mind with your selections.

Is there a clarification or FAQ out there that makes this so ...

The rule actually says

CRB wrote:
Try Again: Yes, but if you ever roll a natural 1 while attempting to activate an item and you fail, then you can't try to activate that item again for 24 hours.

which to me says if you roll a natural 1 and do not fail (this is a skill check they normally do not automatically fail on a 1 or for that matter auto succeed on a 20) that you have in fact succeeded apply the results of the skill as usual.

Several of the polymorph spells of higher level allow the caster to assume forms of Huge sized creature. Both Giant Form II and Monstrous Physique IV those forms are essentially human-like except for, of course, size.

A Druid's wildshape ability caps out at Huge sized creature types.

Though obviously not a bullet point usage of Wish or Miracle I suspect a fair number of GM's would allow a properly phrased Wish/Miracle to accomplish even a Colossal size creature particularly if the primary benefit was the size.

I seem to be hitting the same apparent upper limit (outside of potential Wish or Miracle usage) of Gargantuan that Third Mind is seeing as well ... the above shapechange spells or abilities + Enlarge = gargantuan.

Maybe Magic Jar though that isn't really quite becoming that size yourself.

I'm not familiar enough with Mythic but maybe someone else can say yeah or nay to some method there.

Especially if only taking a quick dip as an arcane caster keep in mind the ASF only applies if the arcane spell in question has a somatic "S" component. And choose your spells as much as possible with this in mind.

andreww wrote:
Kayerloth wrote:
Wall of Thorns should have language that places at least a portion of the Wall of Thorns in contact with the ground (or a solid surface anyway) but it has no such language stating anything at all about placement (several other Walls spells also have similar issues). Strictly speaking you could form the Wall of Thorns in midair and include creature(s) within the area. Then maybe Wall and entrapped creatures both plummet since all that shrubbery is not anchored to anything. (I'm thinking it needs errata or clarification *shrug*) The spell is shapeable however.

Wall of Thorns is a conjuration and therefore can only be cast onto a surface which is capable of supporting it as per the basic rules on conjuration/summoning in the magic chapter.

Probably the easiest way to force flyers to come to ground is to take some form of cover to prevent them from targetting you with ranged attacks. This can be accomplished by simply running indoors. Various spells will also do it. A large area silent image can prevent them from seeing your party. Wall of Ice or Wall of Force can both be shaped into protective domes.

Alternatively if you have a druid Control Winds can make flying next to impossible. If you are suffering ranged attacks then Fickle Winds will spoil their day significantly.

Good catch on the Walls of Thorns I totally never made that connection even though I'm aware of rule such as when applied to not summoning creatures airborne who can't fly. Similarly the Wall of Force is neither (S) shapeable nor has text allowing it to form in a hemi-sphere and is an Evocation spell. A Staff of Power can do so and I'm willing to bet a lot of GM's also allow it but per RAW you can't. There was such text in the Wall of Force but it seems to have vanished at some point prior to 3.5E.

I also totally agree unless you have to fight your foe is to relocate to a place of your choosing (or alter the location to your purpose) and make them come to you.

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