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Pathfinder Society Member. 939 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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While our group was stopped at a local tavern our DM thought a bit of DM scry and fry might be in order. Shortly afterwards he was reading the description of Detect Scrying. I made the opposed caster level check, viewed the scryer and then teleported to the scryer's camp location just outside of town. The group overpowered the caster and a couple of other foes, cleaned up the camp and waited for the rest of their group to return from searching for us in town and then pummeled them into submission.


Its what I've done as well. Even to the point of if the noise of battle continues for a while or gets particularly loud of bringing the whole dungeon down on their heads.


boring7 wrote:

Funny story: I've actually been finding a lot of value in searching for off-standard spells that do nasty things (besides just HP damage) with failed reflex saves. Seems most high-level monsters soak their reflex as well.

Of course, Icy Prison isn't so useful against freedom of movement...

*Picks up quill, yes please do tell.*

My wizard would be doing the same thing ... And being third, of course, doesn't mean unimportant or the Evasion/Improved Evasion among other things wouldn't also be on his list.


Nimoot wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Kayerloth wrote:
Of course, as GM, you could always let them work on it, do research etc., without giving them the precise DC needed and if they aren't taking any hints you're providing on the appropriateness of said Item (or probable crafting level etc.) --> then some time later they are most likely the proud possessor of a suitably cursed Ring of Constant Whiffing (and if you feeling especially cruel anytime they do some how hit despite a -20 to all their rolls well then there's that miss chance it gives the possessor as well :p).
Spot on! : )

That's so mean though.... I know as a character, flooding 90% or more of my wealth into this ring for either myself or for a party member... spending 10-20 sessions making it, only to have it cursed? I'd feel so defeated I'd probably quit after that session...

If you can't use your imagination in a game like D&D and only use what you feel is Correct off the tables... Then what's the point yeah?

And overall I agree I probably wouldn't have the character in question actually get that far. More than likely they'd blow some coin in research and find out that what they ask is essentially impossible unless they get to very epic levels. Along the way the research would point towards some alternate ideas (some of the other Rings suggested in this thread), maybe point in the direction of the Mythic version of True Strike while hopefully getting the point across to even the most dim witted of players.


Here's a list of things I'd be looking for put into terms of what I want to gain or protect myself from rather than Items themselves. Some you can't get via Items unless custom stuff is on the table.

Abilities and Protections sought for high level and epic level play:
• Death Ward
• Freedom of Movement
• Evasion or Improved Evasion
• Hierarchy of saving throws -> Fortitude, then Will, then Reflex. By this I mean I value a good Fortitude save the most. The effects of failure are often fatal. Will is next most important perhaps as important as Fortitude as failure often leaves the character mental incapacitated or enslaved to another creature. Reflex is least important as it typically involves only damage often elemental damage. Then again watch out for casters using Dazing spells (and other status effect metamagic).
• Immunity to Precision attacks/damage such as Sneak Attack, i.e. ‘Fortification’
• Fast Healing
• Damage Reduction particularly DR= xx/-
• Planar Adaptability, ability to survive in extra planar (non-Material) environments.


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Of course, as GM, you could always let them work on it, do research etc., without giving them the precise DC needed and if they aren't taking any hints you're providing on the appropriateness of said Item (or probable crafting level etc.) --> then some time later they are most likely the proud possessor of a suitably cursed Ring of Constant Whiffing (and if you feeling especially cruel anytime they do some how hit despite a -20 to all their rolls well then there's that miss chance it gives the possessor as well :p).


To answer what seems to be the question. Difficult terrain?

It's not unlike a medium size creature that has to force its way thru thick brush ... assuming it's dense enough to be worth worrying about.

Keep in mind, a Grizzly Bear is large and an Elephant is huge per their Bestiary entries. Neither has any particular difficulty moving thru a typical forest or does much damage to the tree sized vegetation while moving on earth so you are talking about an unusually thick stand of trees to really do much. Certainly I have gotten fairly cinematic with scenes involving the surrounding forest but usually it has been restricted to the approach of some creature (building tension etc) rather than in combat but you could certainly have an Giant rip a small tree out if they found themselves short of weaponry in an encounter. Generally I'd think they'd be breaking off branches and such long before knocking whole trees down if that's what you are envisioning.


Ssalarn wrote:

Fast Healing 1 is going to have very little impact in combat, and out of combat healing in PF is largely a non-issue. It's not difficult to have all the OoC healing you'll ever need by level 3 or so, and it just won't be enough to drastically change anything at levels 1 and 2. I believe that Inner Sea Gods also introduced a pair of boots that give you the functional equivalent of low level fast healing.

The point is, it's a money-saving ability, not a game-changing ability.

And I'd have to respectfully disagree.

It's game changing the same way easy access to Wand(s) of Cure Light Wounds is game changing. It is game changing in that the character in question is probably never going to need to rest for more than a few minutes between encounters and can do so without using a single resource where it concerns his hit points. What again is one of the things the game is designed to do with an encounter? (/rhetorical question) In my games two things generally cause a rest/break for the characters, running out of spells or running out of hit points. You've just eliminated one of those for at least one player as they are not ever going to run out of hit points (shy of outright death of course). This heavily encourages the "15-minute" adventuring day. I don't know if you've ever had a player with a permanent Fast Healing ability. I have, though it was in the form of Fast Healing 3 (Epic Feat) in a post 20th campaign.

A character with Fast Healing 1 is going to regain 10 hit points a minute. Doesn't sound like much but that's 600/hour without any exhaustion of resources. If that is not game changing you are playing a very different game than I typically do. Which is great, it shows the flexibility of the system but I'd still call it game changing.

Put another way give the entire party Fast Healing 1 see what happens.


! Wow there's a way to get permanent Fast Healing in PF! (Shy of Mythic level rules)?

Okay don't really care 'how' but a bazillion red flags just went up a bazillion flag poles. Not saying I wouldn't allow whatever combo above is being discussed that gets said result but I am going to examine it with a fine tooth comb first and my 'knee jerk' reaction places me solidly in Claxon's 'it ain't happening camp' no matter how much it may be RAW/RAI until I know a whole let more about the pros and cons. There's a reason it (Fast Healing) isn't in the Glossary but found in the Bestiary Universal Monster Rules, one of them is it is rather game changing ability when a PC has it (permanently).


My personal view (RAI) would be "No"

Even though the typical Metamagic Rod is not also useable as a weapon it is still a magical object and even if not necessarily made of metal (most are but it leaves the door open per RAW) I think the inherent magic (your 'magical quality') renders it an invalid target for Shillelagh even if your GM said it was made of wood.

I also think while nothing per se prevents a Wizard from holding and wielding a "light mace" that happens to be a Metamagic Rod conceptually it's problematic (for me at least) unless said Wizard (or arcane casters in general) is proficient with a Light Mace even if his use is entirely as a Metamagic Rod. Equally obviously most divine casters tend to have less issues wielding a Lt Mace/Metamagic Rod since they possess the proficiency.


Count me in the "they acted stupidly and deserved to get in trouble" group.

That said I tend not to kill folks/TPK groups most of the time unless they are seriously messing up unless it is a particularly grim and gritty campaign, I'd much rather embarrass stupid acts/players than kill a high level and presumable liked PC. I might have very rapidly altered the 'game plan' and knocked out player number 1 or perhaps number 2, stripped him, and tied him upside down some distance from camp with a note attached. Said note might be anything from an offer to be bought off, a warning, to one scribbled with Explosive Runes or a Symbol of Death depending on the group and the nature of the campaign.


Unlike with Magic Items the 3.0/3.5 Epic rules never gave any guide lines as to what made a creature an "Epic" creature. Nothing along the lines of "if it is greater than 200,000gp, total enhancements equal to +11 or greater or +6 enhancement to attack/damage" for instance. Over all I think the boundary if you will between an Epic and a pre-Epic creature is fairly subjective and more of a zone rather than a line. I would lean towards developing something along similar lines if for some reason it is important for you or your campaign. There would not be in my opinion, typically, by a single stat that elevated a creature to epic status. CR probably comes closer than any other single stat and assigning CR is an art as much as hard science.

Damage Reduction (of DR/Epic) by itself is merely one marker of a potentially 'epic' creature. Both the Solar and the Tarrasque have DR/Epic, are both Epic creatures?

A Solar has indeed existed for a while (since about 1985). It existed prior to 3.0 rules much less the 3.0 epic rules. It was included in the module The Isle of the Ape with rules for what amounted to "epic" AD&D rules. It was for characters for levels 18+ <-- remember this is for 2nd Ed AD&D.


I've always allowed it and had it allowed in games I've been involved in.

That said maybe it doesn't actually work by RAW.

You cast Contingency + Teleport --- okay, now it gets tricky you die triggering your Companion spell. Are you still a legal target? Seems like yes based on spells like Raise Dead and Resurrection the targets of those spells being a 'dead creature touched' but brings up the point of when does a dead creature become an "object" and are those spells specifying a particular type of object namely a dead creature? *shrug* At least Teleport does effect objects as well as creatures even if the basic target is "you (plus stuff)".


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Nimoot wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
A 'constant' true strike is self-defeating. The duration is, effectively, one round or until discharged. If you were to increase it's duration to 'infinite', then it becomes, effectively, 'infinite...or until discharged'; you'd be paying the price for a permanent magic item and only end up with a one-use item, which will automatically activate when you make the first attack roll you make whether you like it or not, and then your item will be non-magical.

You're the first person to bring that up.... then it's the debate of semantics of... Since it's constant effect, and therefore ridiculously more pricey than just a ring of at will True Strike, I would think it'd keep the bonus on all attacks... but by the time you can afford things like this... you really don't need it lol... and if you did make it and it somehow got stolen... you'd be in huge trouble.

The spell gives +20 to attack to the very first, single, attack roll you make after being affected by the spell. This is the effect of the spell.

The effective duration of the spell simply denotes the time in which your first attack roll will be modified. Extending the duration simply extends the time in which your first, single attack will be modified.

The spell will never affect more than a single attack, and will never allow you to choose to not modify your attack roll if you have the spell affecting you.

Extending the duration of a spell doesn't change anything about the spell apart from the duration.

Keep in mind that an Item created based on spell 'X' (in this case True Strike) doesn't necessarily, and often doesn't, copy the exact effects of the spell ... it's merely the creative basis for the Item. This is why I said I would turn around and ask what the player was expecting the spell to do got the rather outrageous Item as a response. An Item crafted using True Strike as a basis doesn't have a single 'correct' way of working.


Ipslore the Red wrote:
You can't make magic items from mythic spells.

LOL, told you I was unfamiliar :D


Hmmm ...

Ring of Mythic Moments
- At will as a swift action Mythic Augmented Quickened Truestrike
- 1/day/tier as a standard action Moment of Prescience
- 1/day/tier as a standard action Moment of Greatness

What would that cost (as I'm not terribly familiar with Mythic rules and crafting (compared to Epic rules and crafting)?


Quote:
No he doesn't. You can bypass the requirements to make an item in Pathfinder by upping the crafting DC. That was even specifically mentioned in the FAQ.

Okay taking my ball and going home. You are correct, the rules don't say you need 3 levels for every +1 if not talking about a weapon or armor. At some point I even typed the bit about +5 to the DC but it got edited out as I was typing ... because adding only 5 to the DC for not having some few dozen of the required levels (even if that assumption was incorrect) sounds a bit absurd to my ears. Yes technically if the required caster level was 60+ you could be 18th and add +5 to the spellcraft check for not having the additional 42+ levels by RAW. And I'd ask if that makes any sense at all to you?

RAW as much as it covers such an item see the above, as posted by Jeraa.

RAI ... *shrug* ... I'm thinking the Rules don't even intend to try and cover this beyond "Oh Heck NO!"

I'd repeat my general thought that this Item and any character capable of crafting this Item is so far out of the norm that saying things like adding +5 to the DC for missing the level requirement is not going to fly. But that is just how I'd run it. The Item as desired by the player is well beyond anything a sub Epic Level/Mythic crafter should be capable of crafting and the DC should, if one were to entertain the ability of someone to craft it, should reflect that fact.


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Artemis Moonstar wrote:
Sereinái wrote:
The house always wins
At least until you bring it down...

You just HAD to bring the Big Bad Wolf into the picture didn't ya?

Proving yet again there's always something bigger and badder out there.


Diego Rossi wrote:

<snip> I am appalled bit the ease with which people hand wave working for 6 years without any pause. Immortal or not, working for 6 straight years confined in a small area isn't sane.

My intent wasn't so much to hand wave it away as to point out how terribly far beyond the normal gaming experience (perhaps even most 'epic' gaming) so as to be pretty much an entirely different game altogether. The wizard in question needs in excess of 60 levels to be able to craft the Item. We have very little basis with which to even compare such a wizard to or even talk about the abilities of such a caster. Even the Epic rules barely cover such characters beyond "continue this table out as needed ... "


The Human Diversion wrote:
I haven't been able to find anything on UMD and portals - none of the Forgotten Realms books I've looked in mention it. Does anyone know of any rules on this, 3rd part or otherwise? Does anyone have any opinions on this?

Personally whether UMD works or not and any associated DC is entirely in your hands (the GM's). A portal isn't generally speaking a 'device', you can't really pick it up and move it around (typically). That said I don't see any particular reason you couldn't use it for such especially if your campaign/setting doesn't have spells dealing with portals (such as Analyze Portal). The drawback is you are probably going to end up pretty much creating the mechanics and associated DCs. A portal most closely resembles a Gate spell or Teleportation Circle but with a specific manner of causing it to function i.e. the 'Key'. And in a setting such as the Realms or Planescape it isn't necessarily relegated to 'high level' only since anyone with the right key, even a level 1 Commoner, could potentially cause the portal to open and then use the portal to travel. Such travel can be but isn't necessarily interplanar.


A hex is 12 miles from corner to corner (and about 95 square miles)

Nothing I've come across offers much help in deciding costs in anywhere near the manner the OP seems interested in. Then again I've yet to find the 24,000gp reference (link maybe?) Closest I've seen lists a bridge with no definition as to material(s) or length of the structure as "6BP, 1 Lot".


Each doubling adds +1 to the multiplier -> or 2+1+1=4 so x4
or

1000
2000 doubled [rushed]
3000 doubled again (effectively triples)[rushed familiar helps]
4000 doubled three times (effectively quadruples)[rushed, familiar helps and mythic crafting]

Factors in base cost
+20 insight bonus to attack rolls
effects any weapon I'm wielding and all attacks I make.
ignores any miss chances due to concealment on target(s).
other things I'm currently forgetting

Note that we all also missed (maybe) that at least via 3.0/3.5 Epic crafting rules the above item is also getting priced out rather cheaply at 2,000,000 ... should be more like x20,000 or x25,000 not 2,000 or 2,500 so the Ring is more in the very vague and general neighborhood of 20,000,000 not 2,000,000. No idea if or how such an item might be priced or exist in PF Mythic Rules vs 3.0/3.5 Epic rules.


Note also many of the Walls use the terminology of "vertical" such as the text of both Prismatic Wall and Wall of Force. Of course in turn this implies a local directional pull of gravity. Be prepared to answer questions about positioning of such Walls on, for example, the Astral Plane.


Depends on the portal key. Some keys might be very specific along the lines of having just the right tuning fork for Plane Shift. Others it doesn't matter it can be a very mundane common object, it just needs to be used 'correctly'. That is the key might be an ordinary red rose ... but when you climb over this particular balcony and go thru this window on the night of a full moon during the spring time months humming a certain lullaby while it activates the portal.

Don't take the word "key" too literally as a crafted material object. It may require a high degree craftsmanship or it may be something like a flower or musical note and not at all craftable. A key in this case is just what ever opens or activates the portal.

Planescape materials along with Faerun/Forgotten Realms material are very good sources for expanding on portals. They don't call Sigil, The City of Doors because of all the mundane doorways after all.


What do you mean by "existing rules"?

A major chunk of the rule mechanics boil down to

Roll d20 + add stuff, subtract stuff, get result and interpret the result.
To say that is not a loose and flexible mechanic is missing a lot of how the heart of the rules work. Almost everything else is essentially adding to that base mechanic (I'd call it fluff but it's not in the usual sense fluff is used on the boards).

Everything outside the CRB is not essential, it is adding to the core, even most of the stuff in the core is adding to the actual core. This includes every book published by Paizo, it includes all the 3rd party material it includes all the rules tweaked in the Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew thread.

So to say "No you can't create concept "x"" means that as a GM you have largely accepted you can't create your own material: your own monsters, your own prestige class, your own traits, your own feats, your own spells etc.. and made it your own game. Obviously wrong, GM's everywhere do it constantly. Concepts by and large are not linked to anything as mundane as mechanics ... there's a reason there's a whole Section called Conversions. Are some things (such as concepts) harder to convert than others, obviously yes but impossible, I have strong doubts. I think it more often boils down to certain concepts don't mesh or work well with other concepts not that they cannot be created within the framework of the existing rules.


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We have "Advice" wherein all sorts of threads exist concerning various OP builds and items and creatures ...

Then we have an entire section devoted to just House rules ...


Matthew Downie wrote:
Gilarius wrote:
Dragonchess Player wrote:
If going by the "bonuses on attacks are twice as expensive as bonuses to AC" rule of thumb, the item would be 2,000,000 gp.
Can you imagine the response of a high level wizard being asked to spend 1 million days crafting anything?
I make it 2000 days of work.

Heh so only 6 years give or take.

Never mind that for a caster level in this stratosphere said wizard probably has a demiplane or some other manner to 'I'll step in back for a sec, brb' and all but create the Item in an apparent few minutes aka make the crafting time as close to meaningless (Immortal/Ageless on a Timeless plane etc.) as it can get. He might very well be on a first name basis with the 'Greater God of Magic' who could literally just think the Item into existence. Hi welcome to Artifact Creation 101.


LazarX wrote:
<snip> It's very clear to me. In short, he wants a ring that gives him the bonus of True Strike on every attack he makes. That's the reason for the use of the word "constant". If he did not mean that, I would suggest that his first step would be a grammar and vocabulary review. <snip>

Oh I pretty much 100% agree that is what he appears to be asking. I just don't want to assume he isn't having some grammary and vocabulary issues before giving a flat "Oh hell no" ... or at least be prepared to follow up with "Is that really what you are asking?"


Bob Bob Bob" wrote:
Depends on whether you want a ring of at will true strike or at will quickened true strike.

Part of my issue with pricing the cost of The Item is it isn't even clear if this (the above pair of choices) is what is desired. What does the player in question mean by "continuous" in this case? Neither the above quite fits the normal english meaning of 'continuous' and neither really fits the game term either. If I have to do anything even 'at will' to activate the power is it really 'continuous'? Since the player is inquiring about a Ring and not a Wand my initial assumption is they are not looking for what would amount to a wand with infinite charges that casts True Strike. But maybe that is what they are after *shrug*, I simply don't know.

Edit: Actually as initially phrased the term used wasn't continuous but "constant".


It's off any non-Epic charts if you are following Gilarius' line of thought. Which by default, as phrased, I'd tend to do, hence the questioning response.

20 x 20 = 400 (bonus squared)
400 x 2000 = 800,000
plus whatever adds you want to toss into the mix for negating miss chances from concealment which is fairly close to Seeking (which is for ranged weapons only) so that changes the above to ~ 882,000 plus the fact it is a Ring etc., etc..

Then I'd look at you again and repeat the questions above. As for a Ring doing #1 above I'm probably going to at least double the 882,000 figure (as the Ring is presumably going to work no matter what weapon you take to hand (or hands) as well as the fact it is not an enhancement bonus but a rare 'insight' bonus as well so maybe x2500 rather than 2000). Hopefully by now if this is not a seriously epic campaign the player asking is taking the not so subtle hint that this is not an appropriate item if it functions anywhere near like in #1 above.

EDIT: As for just how Epic a weapon well the 3.5 Epic guidelines if I'm not mistakenly recalling would place this in the realm of needing a 63rd level or so caster (to get to the needed +21 bonus equivalent).

EDIT2: If it's not crystal clear by now how one envisions the item is going to very dramatically effect my idea of how much such an item would cost. There is a huge difference between #1 or #2 and the various other options eluded to in this thread.


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Mathius wrote:
So how do go about magically treating the walls to double the effect.

Lots of lead impregnated brick and lead sheeting certainly makes a house a whole lot heavier for when it drops itself out of a tornado to swat a witch (not to mention blocking all her divinations to foresee the Hostile Hostel).


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This topic or variants of it seem to occur with regularity (as noted by Aetherwisp) so I've compiled the following list of spells (CRB only so far):

- Telepathic Bond, can be made permanent between two (or more) individuals. Fairly expensive to use as a permanent solution.
- Many Scrying spells + Message, can work but Message thru the sensor is unreliable especially at lower levels (5%/caster level).
- Sending, allows a response by target, can be interplanar but becomes less reliable when across planes (5%+ failure rate). Demand (8th level Sor/Wiz) as Sending but adds in a Suggestion. Must be familiar with the target.
- Helping Hand, anywhere within up to 5 miles but lots of delay built into the spell (up to 4 hours at max range) but could be useful when separation is under 1000 feet or the communication is not time sensitive.
- Any familiar (and possible an animal companion taught the right trick) might act as a messenger/go between. Add in Share Senses for extra communication capability.
- Animal Messenger, low level but reliable, ultimate "carrier pigeon" spell. Must send carrier to designated location, potential for interception.
- Teleport Object, high level (7th) but can send an object to a targeted location (and hence obviously one-way).
- Teleport spells can be used to set up rapid movement between locations with those teleporting carrying messages. Planar Ally spells often mentioned to call on the aid of an Outsider (a Lantern Archon is frequently mentioned) who possesses Teleport/Greater Teleport.
- Dream, range unlimited but one-way. Requires the recipient to be asleep (and hence capable of sleeping). Either the caster or someone the caster touches can send the message. The messenger must be in a trance for the duration of the spell and is "defenseless" and unaware while in the trance (fails all saving throws, 'helpless condition' implied but not so stated).
- Whispering Wind, lower level but requires caster to send the Wind to a familiar location where it may or may not find a recipient. Range in miles per level
- Message, cantrip (0 level spell) limited range, can be combined with many Scrying spells. Language dependent. Must mouth and whisper the words.

Edit: Notes Mirror Sight and Minor Dream. Note Sending is a 4th level Cleric spell but 5th level Wizard.


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I'd look right back at you and ask, 'Exactly what do you expect a "Magic Ring with True Strike constant effect" to do?'

1) Apply a True Strike effect to each and every attack? or
2) Apply a True Strike effect to the first attack each round?
3) First attack every other round?
4) Other?


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And mine for a while had an irrational fear of ... row boats. Typical dark underground lake deep in the underdark with a dock and a rowboat tied off to it. Party gets in rowboat and starts off across paranoid about the dark waters, then about halfway across finds themselves glued to the seats of 'not a rowboat but mimic' who then demands a 'small' fee or he'll dump them in the water.


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Personally I like the AC options available to the Barn archetype. I know my Barn has always proven a nightmare to be hit my annoying melee types specially when it turns its broadside towards them.


Hmmm, how many Undead actually have Lifesense? It is not a universal undead trait or even a common ability for Undead to have. (As in the only one I'm aware of is the Wraith/Dread Wraith off the top of my head). Of course if your GM has homeruled that Undead in general have Lifesense (as it makes a certain sort of sense) then you do have a problem.

You use the word sniper ... do you mean attack from distance -> especially greater distances? Lifesense by default only has a 60ft range. If you attack from 100ft (i.e. >60ft) they have no unusual advantage in spotting/perceiving you.

Maybe create the equivalent of a Ghille suit that masks your aura?? Along these lines what resources are you allowed? I don't have access to my copy of Libris Mortis but I'm going to guess there are items in there that would be useful.

Ethereal creatures can not be detected by Lifesense. And while you can not attack them while Ethereal you could wait and watch though it might be a bit distorted. Then "phase-in" ala a Phase Spider to attack (The problem is doing so is a relatively high level tactic)

Maybe just hide in your own Rope Trick. You can see out (though not attack out generally) and elect to move out when it is to your advantage (or at least not disadvantage) to do so.

Antimagic or similar will block Lifesense (but I suspect also nuke your own abilities and therefore not desirable).

Or as implied by Hawktitan become/polymorph into something 'not living'. Very similar to the camo/ghillie suit idea.


whew wrote:
Once an item is swallowed, you no longer have line of effect to it, so you can't make it do anything.

Assuming you aren't in there with it of course.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:

So what about a more mundane shrink/blowup option?

Say you have a Tree Quaal's Feather Token, and you are swallowed whole by a Froghemoth, and you turn the Token into a Tree while inside?

Or, how about a Decanter of Endless Water set to Geyser inside the Monster's belly.

I think I know what an Instant Fortress would do.

I'm sure that was not the intent of the creator of the Bag of Holding, but I was in a party where one of the character was swallowed whole, and he escaped by emptying out the thousands of pounds of contents inside the beastie's belly. He was disgorged.

All of which points right back at Claxon's first line of his first post in the thread ...

Quote:
I think this squarely up to the GM.


More thoughts:

1) No we don't really have rules for modifying AC based on Speed, unless you consider penalties to hit i.e. Mounted Combat rules, as modifying AC. And the tendency for speedy things to have higher listed ACs (and/or Dex scores).

2) The casters ability to direct the bead (via ranged touch mechanics) does scale. A 20th level caster will hit an arrow slit or other narrow opening and do so more reliably than a 5th level caster. Maybe AC = 10 + size(8) + casting stat mod (or caster level). Slightly simpler than an opposed roll *shrug* But see below. How much control of the flight path does this imply if any? Is it like an arrow or can the caster influence the bead in flight?

3) Smacking incoming arrows requires a Feat. You can't do it at all without the Feat. Arrows/Bolts are in fact traveling at similar speeds (An arrow/bolt potentially travels 1000+ ft in a round i.e. 10 range increments of 110ft each for example) It seems like it ought to be harder to strike a small bead vs an arrow but then again Deflect Arrows will work on a sling stone (500ft max range) as well as an arrow.

4) Allowing a melee attack to be readied to smack the bead does open the door (logically and for consistency) to an archer/ranged attack or even another caster readying to do so without the hazard involved in detonating the bead on your own head.

And hopefully it's not an Empowered, Maximized, Intensified Dazing Fireball you just intercepted ... ouch.


Spell description - full descriptions upthread - bolding mine:

Quote:
You are able to shrink one nonmagical item (if it is within the size limit) to 1/16 of its normal size in each dimension (to about 1/4,000 the original volume and mass). This change effectively reduces the object's size by four categories. <snip>


Blindmage wrote:
The shrunken item would have hardness and hp and digestion could be doing damage to it...
What's in the box? wrote:
Also, for 3rd party people out there. FIND A SPELL TO MAKE THINGS APPEAR INSIDE SOMEONE!!! A la assassin magic. Can't believe someone hasn't figured this out yet. (Or make rules to allow for THIS spell a chance) :) Thank you.

Oh well that's a bit easier. While you can't use the object to squeeze them to death from the inside out nothing says the object can't be harmful in and of itself. Take a poison pill or substance the size of say roughly a pea. Shrink it to 1/4000th of its original size and it should be much harder to detect (see, smell, taste) (without magic) than at normal size. Even if you don't use a command word the spell only has a duration of 1/day per level. You can always cast it at the minimum or 5 days in this case and, of course, wait for several days prior to feeding them the pill. Spells can be further used to mask the aura from Shrink Item if you want to avoid magical detection (Nondetection, Misdirection etc.)

.


I want to say Unearthed Arcana is where this spell first appeared.

And I'm with Claxon (as much fun a getting someone to swallow the worlds largest caltrop or an iceberg turned icecube might be) you can't use it in this manner. Along with Claxon's thoughts I'd say you probably need (and don't have) Line of Effect to the Item while it is inside Mr. Rude in order to use the command word to have it return to normal size (but I'm unsure of RAW vs RAI vs -- with regards to that aspect).


Whisperknives wrote:
Kayerloth wrote:
PSusac wrote:
DominusMegadeus wrote:
Giant types tend to have a lot of HP, which is the very quality of enemies that took blasting out of vogue.

I think that you are looking at this wrong.

Let's say you hit them with a standard 10d6 fireball. Nothing to write home about, right? 35 points of damage or 17 if they save

But now you have damaged all the giants in the room for about the amount that the fighter can swing his sword.

So what this means is that every one of those giants will now die one attack sooner.

As a wizard, your job is to come up with solutions to problems that other characters can't do. I think that this is a solution to a problem - ending the fight sooner.

I try to make sure that every round I contribute something meaningful to the fight - I think this counts just fine.

This a thousand times. I didn't expect my fireball or cone of cold or whatever to drop them all when I went blaster mode. I expected it to turn all my foes (except maybe a 'boss') into one or two hit wonders. If they started as foes I could drop with a single blast then they probably weren't a huge threat to begin with for our group. 'Perfect' is a blast to make them all squishy, followed by the archer/dervish/skirmisher clearing them out with single attacks to open the charge/pounce full attack on the 'boss' by the heavy hitting melee type(s) or similar thinking. Of course such plans also typically went astray fairly quickly or got altered on the fly (and I'd go from blaster to battlefield shaper/debuffer etc.).

If you are going "blaster mode" an just throwing a 10D6 fireball, do not bother with throwing damage unless there are like 4 of them in the are of the spell.

Build your caster for what you plan to do.

If you are not built for it at all and do not have the traits/feats for throwing fireballs, by level 10 yes you might be stuck with a base 10D6 fireball, but you should just throw whatever you are built for.

By level 10 a...

And I agree, when I choose to 'blast' I choose which spell(s) every bit as much as I choose them when I decide to go for shaping the battlefield or scouting or what ever. So yes I was unlikely to use a 10d6 fireball at a pack of more or less 'normal' (large pool of hitpoints) giants. As an aside in general picking an AoE to hit one or two targets is not ideal regardless of whether it is 10d6 or 200d6 so yes I'd be looking to use an AoE that would hit 4 or even 6+ targets or I'd be thinking of other options. I was agreeing not with the specific numbers but with the idea that to be a proper blaster (or to use a 'blast') correctly does not require the caster to annihilate all his targets. In my opinion that tactic, in fact, wastes resources usually on damage spent on overkill, fun sometimes but usually not efficient.

Secondly numbers, particularly in a home brew setting, are entirely too 'flexible' in my experience. You have a caster throwing out 100 damage chances are real good, again entirely in my experience, that your targets will be able to take 100 damage and still be staring back at you with their boulders or whatever ... it encourages the GM to up the ante (unless they are unusually fond of 'rocket tag'), a battle the PC's will never win unless the GM is so inclined.


More than likely the bonuses include bonuses from strength or from some other unmentioned source. Where ever the bonuses came from it is unlikely they are just arbitrarily pulled from the writers nether regions in increase the difficulty they've plenty of ways to do it that don't involve such measures.


PSusac wrote:
DominusMegadeus wrote:
Giant types tend to have a lot of HP, which is the very quality of enemies that took blasting out of vogue.

I think that you are looking at this wrong.

Let's say you hit them with a standard 10d6 fireball. Nothing to write home about, right? 35 points of damage or 17 if they save

But now you have damaged all the giants in the room for about the amount that the fighter can swing his sword.

So what this means is that every one of those giants will now die one attack sooner.

As a wizard, your job is to come up with solutions to problems that other characters can't do. I think that this is a solution to a problem - ending the fight sooner.

I try to make sure that every round I contribute something meaningful to the fight - I think this counts just fine.

This a thousand times. I didn't expect my fireball or cone of cold or whatever to drop them all when I went blaster mode. I expected it to turn all my foes (except maybe a 'boss') into one or two hit wonders. If they started as foes I could drop with a single blast then they probably weren't a huge threat to begin with for our group. 'Perfect' is a blast to make them all squishy, followed by the archer/dervish/skirmisher clearing them out with single attacks to open the charge/pounce full attack on the 'boss' by the heavy hitting melee type(s) or similar thinking. Of course such plans also typically went astray fairly quickly or got altered on the fly (and I'd go from blaster to battlefield shaper/debuffer etc.).


Charlie Bell wrote:
Seems legit. Back in the day when lightning bolts bounced off of walls, I once nuked a mage with his own lightning bolt by casting a readied wall of stone in front of him.

Same more or less only mine was a readied Wall of Force in front of a Fireball user.


Interestingly the text of Delayed Blast Fireball has no AC associated with the undetonated bead. Merely a 25% chance to detonate if handled within 1 round of the stated detonation time.

Rules are all over the place for striking magically created effects such as Mage Hand, Unseen Servant, Interposing Hand, Mages Sword, Mage's Faithful Hound ranging from no AC no HP to just hp or just AC or both and the values equally varied.

Figments get 10 + size modifier

or tl,dr an AC of 20 for doing something to the bead works fine (maybe throw in a Reflex save penalty for the character being brave/stupid/silly/heroic etc. enough to try the stunt).


Fourshadow wrote:
Holt wrote:
Cool stuff guys. Thanks for the help, just kind of disappointed that's all there is... guess my next character is going to be spending a lot of money researching new spells... Any advice on converting Frostburn?

Frostburn was 3.5, correct? I don't see why you couldn't take most of the spells you liked straight from there with GM approval.

Boreal Wind, now that was a pretty impressive cold spell, IIRC.

Yes Frostburn was a 3.5 book.


While it probably sounds cool and maybe 'real' it's probably a bad idea for the reason you mention, he'll be behind the rest of the group in level and xp. Potentially this could last months from the sound of the pace of your advancement.

What are the thoughts of the incoming player? Are they relatively new to PF/D&D or a veteran? Is the campaign heavily focused on combat or more skill/non-combat focused? Both less experience as a player and a greater amount of combat will tend to exaggerate the difference in power level of the incoming character. A less combat focused group with the new character having a fairly different skill set will conversely tend to make level difference less an issue (I am largely unfamiliar with RotRL). Further being 3 levels behind at low levels (APL = 4 new guy is 1st) is a more significant power gap than say a character who is 15th joining a party who's average is 18th which has its own set of warts but likely a less significant power gap.


Disintegrate + Gust of Wind, pretty much insures you will need a True Resurrection to bring that one back.

Gaming story:
- My wizard managed to Disintegrate a very nasty BBEG fighter type our newbie GM had lovingly created, the Rogue then managed, in the same round at a later initiative, to UMD a Wand of Wonder which proceeded to duplicate a Gust of Wind ... the look on our DM's face was priceless as we all lost it and broke into "Dust in the Wind" tangents)

Disintegrate cube out of flooring beneath a foe(s). Place Forcecage (barred version) over created hole (ideally Quicken either Disintegrate or Forcecage). Proceed to drop whatever spells you like on (hopefully) trapped target.

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