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Kayerloth's page

Pathfinder Society Member. 978 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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boring7 wrote:
Destruktokon am Half-orc Barbarian, son of chief and witch. Destruktokon demand entry to fizzy wizard home. Destruktokon make intimidate check, roll 12 plus mod and door open by itself out of fear. Door smarter than fizzy wizard.

last time my party faced a magical talking door:
The party's sorcerer, Seamus, had the habit upon meeting someone for the first time of asking them if they like his hat ... his hat being a rather obnoxious tall pointy thing covered in gaudy near worthless baubles. Say anything negative and he had the tendency to go blaster mode on whoever declined to tell him the hat was a work of art, glorious, etc.. So we are in the Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil and facing a magical talking door to continue. Seamus asks, "How do you like my hat?" The Door is tactlessly truthful. Seconds later the Door is dust after Seamus lets loose with a Disintegrate, hits the Door, beats its SR, and the Door fails its Fort save. Seamus had a lot of "barbarian" smash in him :D

As others have indicated it merely negates any miss chance due to concealment and grants +20 To Hit. On the flip side it also means Moment of Prescience doesn't mean an automatic miss if used as an insight bonus to AC nor do you have any questions about what happens if a caster uses Moment of Prescience against a True Strike buffed attack.

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402. Approaching the town gate the PC's spot a huge tree, limbs waving, growling at several hostile appearing guardsmen, "I will not budge!". At which point it seems to take root preventing any hope of closing the gates with nightfall approaching.

403. The party hears about glowing moss seen near the river market. Investigation finds patches of the moss, which grows only in the underdark, left behind by when travelers from the underdark passed through leaving an unintentional trail of spores.

404. The town gates are closed and the walls are heavily manned compared to the norm. A plague flag flies above the battlements, while burial details work nearby at a mass grave.

405. As the PC's pass through an unsavory part of town at night they hear a beautiful voice singing in a tongue they do not recognize. Unable to track down the source, making inquiries they find no one has ever found the source. The language is a very ancient elvish no longer spoken. Sung nightly by a Banshee she only fully manifests on a single night each year and is only deadly on that night.

Cayzle wrote:

Slightly off topic, but this reminds me of back in First Edition days, when my chemical-engineer-major friend had the firm belief that the Ethereal Plane was actually filled with ether, you know, diethyl ether, the flammable chemical.

He lived in deadly fear of setting the entire plane on fire.

Slaps engineer, lack of any Oxygen since the plane is full of Ether makes combustion impossible (unless this non-engineer is overlooking something of course :p)

Now Phligoston on the other hand ...

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

On a related note isnt there a spell that creates an area of magic where you're enhanced and others are harmed? I cant think of the name.

Perhaps a carefully worded wish would accomplish the "I can cast and you can't" goal of the demiplane creator.

While not exactly what you are looking for a clever use of Impeded and Enhanced magic and combine that with alignment traits could definitely give a 'home court advantage' to the creator.

Now add in things like Hallow/Unhallow with a linked spell, Forbiddance, Permanency and Greater Spell Immunity to further tilt the playing field.

Generally you can evade only if you are not helpless, or not in medium or heavier armor. It must also be an attack which allows a Reflex save for half damage.

CRB Glossary wrote:
A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy.

Note that one is 'helpless' if unconscious or bound and therefore it is not relevant whether you actually get a Reflex save for the purpose of Evasion.

Sufficient ability damage or drain can render a target helpless.

I believe Pinned also renders you unable to use Evasion as one may only take verbal or mental actions as well as being described as tightly bound.

Note that if this is a Dragon it is normally immune to both magical sleep and paralysis effects.

Still among my favorite escape from certain death misadventures.

My MT and her two companions found themselves on the verge of a TPK. They had been ambushed by a Roper who promptly grabbed, grappled and severely reduced their strength. Then she used Gaseous Form combined with the fact she possessed Eschew, Silent and Still to yoink victory from a much surprised Roper.

I'm just having fun imagining the Wizard's feline familiar with Handle Animal train the Ranger's wolf to fetch some fresh salmon and wake everyone in the morning for breakfast.

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My thoughts in no particular order.

1) Yes a character might attempt to intercept the bead of a Fireball as a Readied Action.

2) If they do intercept the bead it is going to take a lot of convincing for me to allow any sort of save vs the damage (i.e. perhaps using a Reach weapon from behind a lot of solid cover, for example).

3) My default assumption is any pea-sized ('smaller' than fine sized? object) bead described as "streaks from pointed digit" is a) moving in a relatively straight line between caster and target -> the point of origin and b) is also moving very fast (potentially upwards of 2400 feet in under 6 seconds - you do the math). I'm thinking in the neighborhood of AC=10+8(size)+N. Haven't quite decided what N might be, probably a bit more for hitting a pea-sized object moving very rapidly.

I also agree with LuxuriantOak's thought that anything made up on the spot is going to be more thought out if the party seems inclined to make a habit of this sort of thing as well as Rynjin's last post reflecting on the difference between allowing player creativity and setting precedents (and this one having the potential to set a precedent I'm not so sure I want set). It's a very small step between this and intercepting launched arrows and bullets which currently involves the use of feat(s).

Edit: And those feats specifically do not allow a spell to be deflected or snatched (or natural attacks for that matter)

tonyz wrote:

As a GM, I'd probably rule that just studying the lich's possessions doesn't make you "familiar" with te lch -- that's something that requires long-term interaction. The body part watching would work, though.

Also, the lich isn't "there" until it finishes reforming. So you'd have a window between the time it finished reforming and the time it cast its anti-scrying spells -- assuming its phylactery wasn't in, say, a lead-lined vault in a graveyard or something. Admittedly, not all liches are that paranoid, but there are countermeasures to a lot of divination magic, which is why you might need to pull out the big guns.

And be really really glad it's not even higher level than 14th and using something like Sequester on its phylactery.

Personally I think the group needs to have a long OOC conversation about the situation because unless the group/GM is prepared for deadly intra-character conflict this is all too likely to end badly.

PS: Why the discussion about nonlethal damage?? Am I missing something ... a Lich is normally immune to nonlethal damage.

To be clear Keen, the weapon property, is not useable on a Bow. Keen Edge, the spell, works on projectiles (such as arrows) which deal piercing or slashing damage.

Indeed if a Sunburst spell goes off in the vicinity of a vampire it is going to be painful even if the vampire has Protective Penumbra spell running.

The way I see it and understand it:

The vampire will take 50% additional damage (if facing a 20th level caster 20d6 plus 50% of the value of that roll). It's not an energy type but the vampire is protected from penalties caused by the vulnerability so no -4 on the Reflex save. Whether you are destroyed if you fail the save depends on your GM (and/or if there is a FAQ or clarification out there). A more literal interpretation says you won't suffer the -4 penalty to the Reflex save but would be destroyed based off this part of the text -> "Some creatures might suffer additional effects, as noted in their descriptions." Being destroyed is not a penalty as it is not a 'numerical value' -> Penalty: Penalties are numerical values that are subtracted from a check or statistical score. Check with your GM as your unlife literally might depend on it. In any case the Protective Penumbra gets dispelled.

Of course, as Cyrus eludes to, if you are standing outside during daylight when the Sunburst hits you are in deep doo anyway (have your Contingency cast). Of course one way to make this less an issue is to Heighten your Protective Penumbra to 9th (that will cancel out an awful lot of light spells with text along the lines similar to that of Sunburst, 'dispels any darkness spells of lower than 9th level within its area'. A friendly divine caster with access to Greater Spell Immunity can also be of great value in protecting you from the few highly dangerous 'light' spells out there (or a high UMD and the right item/scroll). There are 3 I'm aware of and would take care to protect myself from are: Sunburst (8th Wiz, Drd), Sunbeam(7th Drd) and Searing Light(3rd Clr). Both Sunbeam and Sunburst are capable of outright destroying undead with weakness to sunlight.

I wouldn't. The Croc is using a Trip attack. It only risks becoming prone if it fails its Trip attack by 10 or more. But, I'd also be loath to ever call a Crocodile (or Alligator for that matter) as 'prone'. I mean how would a prone croc look (or be any less dangerous) than one which was 'not prone' though that is perhaps what you are aiming at with the RAW vs RAI statement. That said I do think, however, one might trip a Croc ... flipping it on its back in the process and exposing the soft underbelly and give any attackers some advantage which might be roughly equivalent to being prone. But prone specifically no.

But that's largely opinion (and on the spot homebrew) not RAW.

Maybe I'm well outside the norm but while I have seen fast over near instantly combats (under 4 rounds) I can't say that has ever been normal for me while on either side of the screen.

So my advice is somewhat serious ... better set up and designed encounters, run more proficiently. Or maybe we are counting the rounds differently or something?

Thanis Kartaleon has given you an excellent listing.

Move Earth perhaps to uncover the wagons. Depending on schools, specialties etc. Limited Wish might be used to duplicate the effects of Move Earth.

How large an area is involved?

As Tarantula has stated magic can seriously mess with traps in general.

What level are the PCs dealing with this trap? Is there a trapfinder in the group (and or someone with Disable Device) and how much magic does the group possess? What CR are you looking to achieve?

Ravingdork wrote:
Decanters of endless water only costs 1,125gp to craft when you use downtime magic capital with the Focused Overseer feat. Just craft a bunch of them and sell your infinite water for whatever price people will pay you for it.

I've got this overwhelming urge to tell you not to flood the market ...

Sorry :p

One niche spell that I find nice to have available (via scroll or other item) if not memorized is Sunburst. Huge AoE (as in 80ft rad. huge) that is a non-elemental damage and particularly nasty to undead, fungi, mold, oozes, and slimes (with other fine print in the text such as dispelling any 8th level or lower darkness spells).

I'd make note of any non-Wiz/Sor spells that I might want to use in conjunction with Limited Wish -> Raise Dead, Freedom of Movement, Blessing of Fervor(don't forget those bullet point uses that Haste won't grant), Spell Immunity, and probably a bazillion more depending on play and campaign style etc..

And while it may mean picking the occasional 'poor' choice of spell you may wish to consider choosing a wider selection of spells. In other words rather than 4 different spells each memorized twice at 6th level, choose 8 different spells and look for ways to use all 8 even that 'poor' choice. Part of playing a high level Wizard well is spell mastery, knowing all those spells and what they can do for you (particularly within a given campaign and GM). As I said might make for an occasional painful selection but it will stretch your personal knowledge quickly and make the act of selection for your Wizard and the peculiarities of your campaign/play style easier and easier.

The only place I think you are likely to find anything resembling such guidelines would be in the 3.0/3.5 Epic rules (or PF conversions of such) or in similarly veined 3PP meant for PF ... and only if you treat an artifact as an epic item with the inability to 'create' it via mortal means, i.e. feats epic or otherwise.

The only comments I might add is go ahead a run with it some, especially if this is your campaign and not bound by PFS. And one possible way to handle the single roll decides all 'problem' would be to have the player make the single roll and apply everything but the perception based mods and just add details to what you reveal as the perception mods beat the needed DC by increasing amounts if you follow me.

LazarX wrote:
Kayerloth wrote:

No need for magic.

There are a large variety of desalinization processes that could be used. I'm no expert (or engineer) but one of the simplest methods is likely via solar 'power'. Basically evaporate the water off (from your salt water supply - something the sun does naturally), then condense and collect the water. The hard part according to the Wikipedia article I read is probably getting the solar energy concentrated on a small area to cause the natural process to speed up sufficiently for any large scale use.

Short read: Look into Desalinization on the Web.

You'll notice that there aren't any record of any pre tech societies who've managed that. the major problem is that while desalination sounds nice, it's extremely engineering intensive to get it to scale beyond beaker stage.

Good point, though the knowledge is also probably lacking in those pre-tech societies and probably also be lacking in most imagined medieval fantasy settings so there is that as well.

Maybe instead a Permanent Wall of Fire (heat source) plus tubing and make a distillery.

Or just go back and use teams of 'create water' or 'create food and water'. Water from the later appears permanent (doesn't vanish after 24 hours).

No need for magic.

There are a large variety of desalinization processes that could be used. I'm no expert (or engineer) but one of the simplest methods is likely via solar 'power'. Basically evaporate the water off (from your salt water supply - something the sun does naturally), then condense and collect the water. The hard part according to the Wikipedia article I read is probably getting the solar energy concentrated on a small area to cause the natural process to speed up sufficiently for any large scale use.

Short read: Look into Desalinization on the Web.

Lots of solid advice above.

To Paulicus' excellent list of spells I'd add Limited Wish doubly so if the party you find yourself in is light on divine spells or casters.

The high(est) level direct damage I tended to use were Polar Ray and Meteor Swarm. Both are touch attacks and in my case I could change the damage type as well. Plus things like Rime and Dazing metamagic didn't yet exist for me which could be added for more debilitation (and control to a 'blaster' wizard).

While the points against direct damage blastiness are worth noting ... I like my cake and eating it too and not much will clear out the mooks so the Hasted, Greater Heroism (etc.) buffed Paladin and Barbarian can get at the BBEG like a well placed blast with some control metamagic tacked onto it.

Waves of Exhaustion plus Calcific Touch (or Polar Ray) can really demolish a targets Dexterity score in a hurry. The drawback to Waves of Exhaustion is that it must be a living target (and to Calcific Touch is its Range: Touch)

I totally agree with Paulicus' comments on Foresight. Depending on the GM the spell ranges from near worthless to potentially very powerful though a +2 insight bonus is nearly otherwise unobtainable for AC and Reflex saves. (And if you are up against a den of thieves and assassins the lack of surprise and flat-footed status might be life saving in itself :P)

It really depends on what set of rules you are going to be dealing with and that is going to be the GM's call (your call?).

PF doesn't, as Aleron has stated, have a set of "Epic" rules and has shied away from publishing any sticking to Mythic which while dealing with the power level takes a very different tack to the issue of 'beyond 20th' and really isn't a set of rules for beyond 20th as much as beyond 'normal' power levels. The brief bit in the CRB about 'Beyond 20th' really isn't useful at all to someone designing campaign material intended for what it sounds like you are aiming for i.e. CR 30+ but more aimed at the period right after 20th level and finishing out PC's pre 25th level (allowing them to have some fun with their capstone and 20th level abilities rather than "here are some nice capstone powers, too bad the campaign has ended")

Personally as someone who has both played and run 'Epic' material I'd have a look at this:

Pathfinder Epic Rules conversion

It uses the 3.0/3.5 Epic rules set and converts it to the Pathfinder rules set to level 30 in detail with guidelines for going as far as you want after that (much like the 3.0 Epic rules did). The only thing it doesn't cover is Monster creation or stats so you will need to create your own Epic Bestiary entries but does cover pretty much everything else you ask about above.

One note of warning, one thing about any Mounted combat specialist is they need room to operate and this is probably a hundred times true of archery based combat off a mount Mongol style (ride in, fire arrows, ride away without engaging in melee). So it might be good to check (if you haven't) about how this will work with whatever campaign you are joining so at the very least you have something your good at when inside a typical dungeon or inside the town walls, for example, if that will occur with any frequency.

Maybe I'm missing something but why is my mage killer not giggling at a Wizard who has used Emergency Force Field ... seems like he just took himself out of the fight? Okay I suppose he can buff himself or summon a couple creatures (inside the Sphere) but unless I'm doing it wrong (i.e. not RAW) he only has so much room inside the Sphere and no line of effect to cast anything outside the Sphere. And I can potentially be doing other things while keeping an eye on our self containing Wizard.

Charon's Little Helper wrote:
And with maxed out stealth combined with invisibility/dimension door - you think it's crazy for him to start next to the wizard? Or at least within 15 ft? (For dirty trick you only have to be in melee range - not next to them. All manuver monks based around dirty trick should hold a whip just to give dirty trick more range. :P

Yes it would work as described against most of my Wizards (or Wizards played by friends) but only if the underlying assumption is true. That underlying assumption seems to be "Wizard is caught alone". Most of my Wizards had what would amount to an awful Perception score (usually even after buffed to the gills vs any similarly buffed and Stealthy-type foe) but the underlying assumption was almost equally never true, there was almost always a very perceptive character around as well. For this to work you don't have to beat my perception you have to beat his. In general this tactic/character type will work better if used against an NPC/BBEG and not so much against a PC caster or group as PCs tend to be built to gain surprise and, as a group, avoid being surprised.

See Bob Bob Bob's post about all sorts of 'mages' that aren't the standard guy in robes ... and if that's all your mage killer is able to tackle (standard guy in robes) the character's focus might just be a bit too narrow for many campaigns.

Same sort of issue with anything "Scry and Fry" related. Never mind the Will save issue vs Scrying there's the issue of the sensor being detectable by anyone with a perception able to beat DC=20+Spell level of sensor. It also ignores the existence of Detect Scrying. I'd also consider it pretty easy GM'ing if the sensor isn't noticed before the Scryer had enough time to do anything remotely resembling studying the location for a Teleport type action ... in which case the target(s) are now aware of your 'interest' which is probably a bad thing.

While stealth may be relevant, Invisibility is again in my experience almost never a factor except for a small window of levels due to the presence of See Invisibility. (And again there's the issue of wizard being in the company of highly perceptive characters)

Also your stealthy mage killer best not be operating too far out on a limb and have a get away plan available (especially if this is a PC). Doesn't do a whole lot of good (on a personal basis) if you win initiative and take out said Wizard only to have his companions chew you to bits with their counterstrike. Then again I suppose this is always a risk when playing this sort of character concept/build and the ones getting to high levels will be the ones who's players have figured out just how far 'behind the lines' their character can operate and survive.

Might be as simple as a desire to keep the list relevant for the largest base of players, those whose groups can access only the Bestiary I.

On Pupsocket's list I'd note the Fifth Tier as also being very situational rather than strictly low-level. Or 'sucks to fall overboard' in a situation where you can't use magic (usually GM created).

Bacon666 wrote:

I would let the other chars make a heal skill check to spot that he's still alive.

At the same time I would warn my players that this is a 1 time boon... Next time a player forgets to write down hp, the char doesn't have them (1 time is an honest mistake... Recurring errors is not taking the game seriously...)


And for me that is assuming I had no reason to believe it was not an honest mistake.

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wraithstrike wrote:
There is no flat formula, and I would not change CR. What I do think you should do is be careful about the problems you give the players to solve, and be careful about which monsters you use. It is better if you keep the game at a low level unless you have other ways to compensate for lack of magic. Being permanently turned to stone by a medusa as an example might not go over well. IIRC you would need stone to flesh or break enchantment.

To take this a step further decide what the options for the PCs are for a "condition" before it happens, ideally before the game even starts. In turn this leads back to what Tacticslion is saying about needing to know more about the details. Is magic something only the NPCs control? Is magic exceedingly rare even for the NPCs (or truly unknown - and presumably waiting to be rediscovered ... or why use PF rules in the first place when plenty of sci-fi rules are out there)?

I don't think there is an easy answer to the OP question and certainly not a flat increase of 'x' amount for 'y' defense.

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Ability scores won't effect each other but sheesh that is going to be a much harder to slay Graveknight if his armor (containing his soul) has both its own mind and the ability to say Teleport or run away as well. Of course it also means his 'phylactery' may also get uncooperative if not happy with his Knight which might prove interesting to deal with if you are the Graveknight in question.

*Party enters dungeon and sees an ancient suit of Armor, which appears to be having one half of a loud argument, apparently with itself* :p (and oh gads why did my brain just start channeling R2D2's voice for the Armor)

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The ability scores the item have no direct effect on the wearer unless it specifically says so in the item description.

So no the Wisdom will not effect the wearer/bearer/possessor of the item. It will effect the item's Will save and any checks based on Wisdom. Same for Intelligence and Charisma. Just treat the item as if it is an NPC construct. As intelligent magic items they may have various skills and those skills will use the appropriate skill mods for those skills. The item can and certainly is likely to employ Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Bluff and or any other skills (powers and abilities) it may possess to try and meet its goals just like any intelligent NPC would do.

CRB, Intelligent Magic Items wrote:
Intelligent items can actually be considered creatures because they have Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. Treat them as constructs. Intelligent items often have the ability to illuminate their surroundings at will (as magic weapons do); many cannot see otherwise.

And keep in mind these rules (*cough* guidelines) are one area of the rules set that needs very heavy GM oversight to work without being extremely disruptive to a campaign. They can also be very fun when handled well. And rather obviously that is my opinion.

I'm thinking that no you wouldn't be able to but not sure if it works out RAW that way.

I'd say that RAI anyway (and probably what I'd do) is select a spell-like ability duplicating a spell with a level less than or equal to 1/2 its caster level (round down) – 6 (the combined effect of -2 and -4, as that is where the +2 and +4 level mods pop up for the metamagic effects).

Or you would need to be level 16 ... [1/2*(16)]-6=2

Which not unsurprisingly is about the caster level needed to actually cast a Quickened, Empowered 2nd level spell. A wizard of 12th level is actually only capable of using Quickened Empowered 0-level spells.

Jeraa wrote:
For what its worth, the 3.5 FAQ states that when a magic item duplicates a spell, it only lasts for the duration of the spell at a caster level equal to the ... <snip> ... The 1st edition DMG says rings spell-like abilities function as 12th level of magic use unless the power requires a higher level of magic use. And the Ring of Invisibility says it functions exactly as the spell (with the exception that some rings have an added effect). That would imply the duration as well.

Keep in mind that the Ring of Invisibility would have then be based off the duration of a 12th level Magic User of AD&D as well if so ruling ... duration at that time was a whole heck of a lot longer than the 12 minutes it currently would be for a 12 level Wizard. In between (then and now) I believe there is even a period where the stated duration was a flat 24 hours for Invisibility.

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How about explaining this then:


Cloak of Etherealness

Aura strong transmutation; CL 15th

Slot shoulders; Price 55,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.


This silvery gray cloak seems to absorb light rather than be illuminated by it. On command, the cloak makes its wearer ethereal (as the ethereal jaunt spell). The effect is dismissible. The cloak works for a total of up to 10 minutes per day. This duration need not be continuous, but it must be used in 1 minute increments.


Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, ethereal jaunt; Cost 27,500 gp

Why bother with "(as the ethereal jaunt spell)" if you are going to go on and specify exactly how long and how continuous or not the activation is? Couldn't you just leave that chunk out of sentence?

with text missing:
Cloak of Etherealness

Aura strong transmutation; CL 15th

Slot shoulders; Price 55,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.


This silvery gray cloak seems to absorb light rather than be illuminated by it. On command, the cloak makes its wearer ethereal. The effect is dismissible. The cloak works for a total of up to 10 minutes per day. This duration need not be continuous, but it must be used in 1 minute increments.


Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, ethereal jaunt; Cost 27,500 gp

Personally I've always viewed it as you turn invisible as long as you wear the Ring. Ditto for Hat of Disguise. No idea if I hold that belief from something specific in the decades old text or not. I probably first read the text of a Ring of Invisibility almost 4 decades ago.

I'm with Ashiel, I'd be loath to reduce the CR much if at all. That the players have previously fought it is largely irrelevant to me. As you said each is essentially a new encounter making it effectively no different than if they had fought 3 (or 5) different dragons in differing encounters except that each side has learned more about the other with each encounter.

That said the Curse is a major consideration and makes the dragon significantly weaker for encounters while cursed. What I'd most likely do is have the dragon attempting to find a way to rid itself of the curse (going to see those goblins perhaps) and effectively put the party on a secret timer after which it automatically finds the cure (maybe they even learn of the 'timer' after capture of some goblins). If the party catches the dragon prior to removing the curse (and/or the rest of the damage) then the same CR because that's their 'bonus' reward for doing well and getting the dragon prior to its recovery. If they find and defeat the dragon but not until after it is cured than maybe drop the reward to CR9 or maybe just leave it be as they will get a tougher fight out of 'yet another' dragon encounter (particularly if it has goblin allies about).

Bottom line I wouldn't worry too much about the exact CR and exactly how that translates into xp. Give what feels right and forget about exactly how you arrive at the 'right' amount. Any bonus from numerous repeated encounters with the same dragon is 'story' xp. It certainly sounds as if the party has a significant tale to tell upon returning home where ever that may be.

I'm in the group of 'doesn't think it will accomplish what you are trying to do" with the caveat of maybe I don't entirely follow what you are trying to do.

Either way I suspect you need the Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew forums more than Advice (or more specifically you need advice on a Homebrew/House Rule answer for your issue).

Would stretching out the spell level progression between acquiring the next higher level of spell help? If it wasn't strictly linear you could still have 9th level spells without worrying about post 20th play.

Part of the issue is it involves "Stealth and Perception" which is a bit of a muddle as well.

Why should Still and Silent effect Spellcraft at all? Why aren't the effects and modifiers, if any, based off of Perception i.e. "but you must be able to clearly see the spell as it is being cast, and this incurs the same penalties as a Perception skill check due to distance, poor conditions, and other factors."? Wouldn't (shouldn't) altered components fall into the 'other factors' category?

Why doesn't casting time explicitly alter the Spellcraft DC?
Okay so let's not worry about the difference between an action, full round and a 1 round casting time. But what about when it goes for 3 rounds or 10 minutes or you get the idea?

Well the person who really needs to answer your question(s) is your GM. Only he knows how he intends to handle post 20th level play.

There's the 3.0/3.5 Epic rules. There is at least one conversion of those rules into PF -> PF conversion of Epic Rules. There's the other 3PP mentioned above. There is the very minimal mention and recommendations made in the CRB about advancing past 20th. Which one or combination of rules your GM is choosing will make a huge difference potentially. When he lets you know more then the advice can be better tailored to fit you and your character.

Yes you will be incredibly powerful especially after you've gone a bit past 20th and/or picked up some Mythic ranks and abilities. But it is good to remember it is always relative, as in powerful compared to what?

That said the change is not likely going to be hugely dramatic any more than advancing from 19th to 20th was for you, so unless that was overwhelming I wouldn't get overly anxious just yet (and just how much change also goes back to just what rules he is using or not using).

While our group was stopped at a local tavern our DM thought a bit of DM scry and fry might be in order. Shortly afterwards he was reading the description of Detect Scrying. I made the opposed caster level check, viewed the scryer and then teleported to the scryer's camp location just outside of town. The group overpowered the caster and a couple of other foes, cleaned up the camp and waited for the rest of their group to return from searching for us in town and then pummeled them into submission.

Its what I've done as well. Even to the point of if the noise of battle continues for a while or gets particularly loud of bringing the whole dungeon down on their heads.

boring7 wrote:

Funny story: I've actually been finding a lot of value in searching for off-standard spells that do nasty things (besides just HP damage) with failed reflex saves. Seems most high-level monsters soak their reflex as well.

Of course, Icy Prison isn't so useful against freedom of movement...

*Picks up quill, yes please do tell.*

My wizard would be doing the same thing ... And being third, of course, doesn't mean unimportant or the Evasion/Improved Evasion among other things wouldn't also be on his list.

Nimoot wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Kayerloth wrote:
Of course, as GM, you could always let them work on it, do research etc., without giving them the precise DC needed and if they aren't taking any hints you're providing on the appropriateness of said Item (or probable crafting level etc.) --> then some time later they are most likely the proud possessor of a suitably cursed Ring of Constant Whiffing (and if you feeling especially cruel anytime they do some how hit despite a -20 to all their rolls well then there's that miss chance it gives the possessor as well :p).
Spot on! : )

That's so mean though.... I know as a character, flooding 90% or more of my wealth into this ring for either myself or for a party member... spending 10-20 sessions making it, only to have it cursed? I'd feel so defeated I'd probably quit after that session...

If you can't use your imagination in a game like D&D and only use what you feel is Correct off the tables... Then what's the point yeah?

And overall I agree I probably wouldn't have the character in question actually get that far. More than likely they'd blow some coin in research and find out that what they ask is essentially impossible unless they get to very epic levels. Along the way the research would point towards some alternate ideas (some of the other Rings suggested in this thread), maybe point in the direction of the Mythic version of True Strike while hopefully getting the point across to even the most dim witted of players.

Here's a list of things I'd be looking for put into terms of what I want to gain or protect myself from rather than Items themselves. Some you can't get via Items unless custom stuff is on the table.

Abilities and Protections sought for high level and epic level play:
• Death Ward
• Freedom of Movement
• Evasion or Improved Evasion
• Hierarchy of saving throws -> Fortitude, then Will, then Reflex. By this I mean I value a good Fortitude save the most. The effects of failure are often fatal. Will is next most important perhaps as important as Fortitude as failure often leaves the character mental incapacitated or enslaved to another creature. Reflex is least important as it typically involves only damage often elemental damage. Then again watch out for casters using Dazing spells (and other status effect metamagic).
• Immunity to Precision attacks/damage such as Sneak Attack, i.e. ‘Fortification’
• Fast Healing
• Damage Reduction particularly DR= xx/-
• Planar Adaptability, ability to survive in extra planar (non-Material) environments.

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Of course, as GM, you could always let them work on it, do research etc., without giving them the precise DC needed and if they aren't taking any hints you're providing on the appropriateness of said Item (or probable crafting level etc.) --> then some time later they are most likely the proud possessor of a suitably cursed Ring of Constant Whiffing (and if you feeling especially cruel anytime they do some how hit despite a -20 to all their rolls well then there's that miss chance it gives the possessor as well :p).

To answer what seems to be the question. Difficult terrain?

It's not unlike a medium size creature that has to force its way thru thick brush ... assuming it's dense enough to be worth worrying about.

Keep in mind, a Grizzly Bear is large and an Elephant is huge per their Bestiary entries. Neither has any particular difficulty moving thru a typical forest or does much damage to the tree sized vegetation while moving on earth so you are talking about an unusually thick stand of trees to really do much. Certainly I have gotten fairly cinematic with scenes involving the surrounding forest but usually it has been restricted to the approach of some creature (building tension etc) rather than in combat but you could certainly have an Giant rip a small tree out if they found themselves short of weaponry in an encounter. Generally I'd think they'd be breaking off branches and such long before knocking whole trees down if that's what you are envisioning.

Ssalarn wrote:

Fast Healing 1 is going to have very little impact in combat, and out of combat healing in PF is largely a non-issue. It's not difficult to have all the OoC healing you'll ever need by level 3 or so, and it just won't be enough to drastically change anything at levels 1 and 2. I believe that Inner Sea Gods also introduced a pair of boots that give you the functional equivalent of low level fast healing.

The point is, it's a money-saving ability, not a game-changing ability.

And I'd have to respectfully disagree.

It's game changing the same way easy access to Wand(s) of Cure Light Wounds is game changing. It is game changing in that the character in question is probably never going to need to rest for more than a few minutes between encounters and can do so without using a single resource where it concerns his hit points. What again is one of the things the game is designed to do with an encounter? (/rhetorical question) In my games two things generally cause a rest/break for the characters, running out of spells or running out of hit points. You've just eliminated one of those for at least one player as they are not ever going to run out of hit points (shy of outright death of course). This heavily encourages the "15-minute" adventuring day. I don't know if you've ever had a player with a permanent Fast Healing ability. I have, though it was in the form of Fast Healing 3 (Epic Feat) in a post 20th campaign.

A character with Fast Healing 1 is going to regain 10 hit points a minute. Doesn't sound like much but that's 600/hour without any exhaustion of resources. If that is not game changing you are playing a very different game than I typically do. Which is great, it shows the flexibility of the system but I'd still call it game changing.

Put another way give the entire party Fast Healing 1 see what happens.

! Wow there's a way to get permanent Fast Healing in PF! (Shy of Mythic level rules)?

Okay don't really care 'how' but a bazillion red flags just went up a bazillion flag poles. Not saying I wouldn't allow whatever combo above is being discussed that gets said result but I am going to examine it with a fine tooth comb first and my 'knee jerk' reaction places me solidly in Claxon's 'it ain't happening camp' no matter how much it may be RAW/RAI until I know a whole let more about the pros and cons. There's a reason it (Fast Healing) isn't in the Glossary but found in the Bestiary Universal Monster Rules, one of them is it is rather game changing ability when a PC has it (permanently).

My personal view (RAI) would be "No"

Even though the typical Metamagic Rod is not also useable as a weapon it is still a magical object and even if not necessarily made of metal (most are but it leaves the door open per RAW) I think the inherent magic (your 'magical quality') renders it an invalid target for Shillelagh even if your GM said it was made of wood.

I also think while nothing per se prevents a Wizard from holding and wielding a "light mace" that happens to be a Metamagic Rod conceptually it's problematic (for me at least) unless said Wizard (or arcane casters in general) is proficient with a Light Mace even if his use is entirely as a Metamagic Rod. Equally obviously most divine casters tend to have less issues wielding a Lt Mace/Metamagic Rod since they possess the proficiency.

Count me in the "they acted stupidly and deserved to get in trouble" group.

That said I tend not to kill folks/TPK groups most of the time unless they are seriously messing up unless it is a particularly grim and gritty campaign, I'd much rather embarrass stupid acts/players than kill a high level and presumable liked PC. I might have very rapidly altered the 'game plan' and knocked out player number 1 or perhaps number 2, stripped him, and tied him upside down some distance from camp with a note attached. Said note might be anything from an offer to be bought off, a warning, to one scribbled with Explosive Runes or a Symbol of Death depending on the group and the nature of the campaign.

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