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Kayerloth's page

Pathfinder Society Member. 905 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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Personally I like the AC options available to the Barn archetype. I know my Barn has always proven a nightmare to be hit my annoying melee types specially when it turns its broadside towards them.

Hmmm, how many Undead actually have Lifesense? It is not a universal undead trait or even a common ability for Undead to have. (As in the only one I'm aware of is the Wraith/Dread Wraith off the top of my head). Of course if your GM has homeruled that Undead in general have Lifesense (as it makes a certain sort of sense) then you do have a problem.

You use the word sniper ... do you mean attack from distance -> especially greater distances? Lifesense by default only has a 60ft range. If you attack from 100ft (i.e. >60ft) they have no unusual advantage in spotting/perceiving you.

Maybe create the equivalent of a Ghille suit that masks your aura?? Along these lines what resources are you allowed? I don't have access to my copy of Libris Mortis but I'm going to guess there are items in there that would be useful.

Ethereal creatures can not be detected by Lifesense. And while you can not attack them while Ethereal you could wait and watch though it might be a bit distorted. Then "phase-in" ala a Phase Spider to attack (The problem is doing so is a relatively high level tactic)

Maybe just hide in your own Rope Trick. You can see out (though not attack out generally) and elect to move out when it is to your advantage (or at least not disadvantage) to do so.

Antimagic or similar will block Lifesense (but I suspect also nuke your own abilities and therefore not desirable).

Or as implied by Hawktitan become/polymorph into something 'not living'. Very similar to the camo/ghillie suit idea.

whew wrote:
Once an item is swallowed, you no longer have line of effect to it, so you can't make it do anything.

Assuming you aren't in there with it of course.

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

So what about a more mundane shrink/blowup option?

Say you have a Tree Quaal's Feather Token, and you are swallowed whole by a Froghemoth, and you turn the Token into a Tree while inside?

Or, how about a Decanter of Endless Water set to Geyser inside the Monster's belly.

I think I know what an Instant Fortress would do.

I'm sure that was not the intent of the creator of the Bag of Holding, but I was in a party where one of the character was swallowed whole, and he escaped by emptying out the thousands of pounds of contents inside the beastie's belly. He was disgorged.

All of which points right back at Claxon's first line of his first post in the thread ...

I think this squarely up to the GM.

More thoughts:

1) No we don't really have rules for modifying AC based on Speed, unless you consider penalties to hit i.e. Mounted Combat rules, as modifying AC. And the tendency for speedy things to have higher listed ACs (and/or Dex scores).

2) The casters ability to direct the bead (via ranged touch mechanics) does scale. A 20th level caster will hit an arrow slit or other narrow opening and do so more reliably than a 5th level caster. Maybe AC = 10 + size(8) + casting stat mod (or caster level). Slightly simpler than an opposed roll *shrug* But see below. How much control of the flight path does this imply if any? Is it like an arrow or can the caster influence the bead in flight?

3) Smacking incoming arrows requires a Feat. You can't do it at all without the Feat. Arrows/Bolts are in fact traveling at similar speeds (An arrow/bolt potentially travels 1000+ ft in a round i.e. 10 range increments of 110ft each for example) It seems like it ought to be harder to strike a small bead vs an arrow but then again Deflect Arrows will work on a sling stone (500ft max range) as well as an arrow.

4) Allowing a melee attack to be readied to smack the bead does open the door (logically and for consistency) to an archer/ranged attack or even another caster readying to do so without the hazard involved in detonating the bead on your own head.

And hopefully it's not an Empowered, Maximized, Intensified Dazing Fireball you just intercepted ... ouch.

Spell description - full descriptions upthread - bolding mine:

You are able to shrink one nonmagical item (if it is within the size limit) to 1/16 of its normal size in each dimension (to about 1/4,000 the original volume and mass). This change effectively reduces the object's size by four categories. <snip>

Blindmage wrote:
The shrunken item would have hardness and hp and digestion could be doing damage to it...
What's in the box? wrote:
Also, for 3rd party people out there. FIND A SPELL TO MAKE THINGS APPEAR INSIDE SOMEONE!!! A la assassin magic. Can't believe someone hasn't figured this out yet. (Or make rules to allow for THIS spell a chance) :) Thank you.

Oh well that's a bit easier. While you can't use the object to squeeze them to death from the inside out nothing says the object can't be harmful in and of itself. Take a poison pill or substance the size of say roughly a pea. Shrink it to 1/4000th of its original size and it should be much harder to detect (see, smell, taste) (without magic) than at normal size. Even if you don't use a command word the spell only has a duration of 1/day per level. You can always cast it at the minimum or 5 days in this case and, of course, wait for several days prior to feeding them the pill. Spells can be further used to mask the aura from Shrink Item if you want to avoid magical detection (Nondetection, Misdirection etc.)


I want to say Unearthed Arcana is where this spell first appeared.

And I'm with Claxon (as much fun a getting someone to swallow the worlds largest caltrop or an iceberg turned icecube might be) you can't use it in this manner. Along with Claxon's thoughts I'd say you probably need (and don't have) Line of Effect to the Item while it is inside Mr. Rude in order to use the command word to have it return to normal size (but I'm unsure of RAW vs RAI vs -- with regards to that aspect).

Whisperknives wrote:
Kayerloth wrote:
PSusac wrote:
DominusMegadeus wrote:
Giant types tend to have a lot of HP, which is the very quality of enemies that took blasting out of vogue.

I think that you are looking at this wrong.

Let's say you hit them with a standard 10d6 fireball. Nothing to write home about, right? 35 points of damage or 17 if they save

But now you have damaged all the giants in the room for about the amount that the fighter can swing his sword.

So what this means is that every one of those giants will now die one attack sooner.

As a wizard, your job is to come up with solutions to problems that other characters can't do. I think that this is a solution to a problem - ending the fight sooner.

I try to make sure that every round I contribute something meaningful to the fight - I think this counts just fine.

This a thousand times. I didn't expect my fireball or cone of cold or whatever to drop them all when I went blaster mode. I expected it to turn all my foes (except maybe a 'boss') into one or two hit wonders. If they started as foes I could drop with a single blast then they probably weren't a huge threat to begin with for our group. 'Perfect' is a blast to make them all squishy, followed by the archer/dervish/skirmisher clearing them out with single attacks to open the charge/pounce full attack on the 'boss' by the heavy hitting melee type(s) or similar thinking. Of course such plans also typically went astray fairly quickly or got altered on the fly (and I'd go from blaster to battlefield shaper/debuffer etc.).

If you are going "blaster mode" an just throwing a 10D6 fireball, do not bother with throwing damage unless there are like 4 of them in the are of the spell.

Build your caster for what you plan to do.

If you are not built for it at all and do not have the traits/feats for throwing fireballs, by level 10 yes you might be stuck with a base 10D6 fireball, but you should just throw whatever you are built for.

By level 10 a...

And I agree, when I choose to 'blast' I choose which spell(s) every bit as much as I choose them when I decide to go for shaping the battlefield or scouting or what ever. So yes I was unlikely to use a 10d6 fireball at a pack of more or less 'normal' (large pool of hitpoints) giants. As an aside in general picking an AoE to hit one or two targets is not ideal regardless of whether it is 10d6 or 200d6 so yes I'd be looking to use an AoE that would hit 4 or even 6+ targets or I'd be thinking of other options. I was agreeing not with the specific numbers but with the idea that to be a proper blaster (or to use a 'blast') correctly does not require the caster to annihilate all his targets. In my opinion that tactic, in fact, wastes resources usually on damage spent on overkill, fun sometimes but usually not efficient.

Secondly numbers, particularly in a home brew setting, are entirely too 'flexible' in my experience. You have a caster throwing out 100 damage chances are real good, again entirely in my experience, that your targets will be able to take 100 damage and still be staring back at you with their boulders or whatever ... it encourages the GM to up the ante (unless they are unusually fond of 'rocket tag'), a battle the PC's will never win unless the GM is so inclined.

More than likely the bonuses include bonuses from strength or from some other unmentioned source. Where ever the bonuses came from it is unlikely they are just arbitrarily pulled from the writers nether regions in increase the difficulty they've plenty of ways to do it that don't involve such measures.

PSusac wrote:
DominusMegadeus wrote:
Giant types tend to have a lot of HP, which is the very quality of enemies that took blasting out of vogue.

I think that you are looking at this wrong.

Let's say you hit them with a standard 10d6 fireball. Nothing to write home about, right? 35 points of damage or 17 if they save

But now you have damaged all the giants in the room for about the amount that the fighter can swing his sword.

So what this means is that every one of those giants will now die one attack sooner.

As a wizard, your job is to come up with solutions to problems that other characters can't do. I think that this is a solution to a problem - ending the fight sooner.

I try to make sure that every round I contribute something meaningful to the fight - I think this counts just fine.

This a thousand times. I didn't expect my fireball or cone of cold or whatever to drop them all when I went blaster mode. I expected it to turn all my foes (except maybe a 'boss') into one or two hit wonders. If they started as foes I could drop with a single blast then they probably weren't a huge threat to begin with for our group. 'Perfect' is a blast to make them all squishy, followed by the archer/dervish/skirmisher clearing them out with single attacks to open the charge/pounce full attack on the 'boss' by the heavy hitting melee type(s) or similar thinking. Of course such plans also typically went astray fairly quickly or got altered on the fly (and I'd go from blaster to battlefield shaper/debuffer etc.).

Charlie Bell wrote:
Seems legit. Back in the day when lightning bolts bounced off of walls, I once nuked a mage with his own lightning bolt by casting a readied wall of stone in front of him.

Same more or less only mine was a readied Wall of Force in front of a Fireball user.

Interestingly the text of Delayed Blast Fireball has no AC associated with the undetonated bead. Merely a 25% chance to detonate if handled within 1 round of the stated detonation time.

Rules are all over the place for striking magically created effects such as Mage Hand, Unseen Servant, Interposing Hand, Mages Sword, Mage's Faithful Hound ranging from no AC no HP to just hp or just AC or both and the values equally varied.

Figments get 10 + size modifier

or tl,dr an AC of 20 for doing something to the bead works fine (maybe throw in a Reflex save penalty for the character being brave/stupid/silly/heroic etc. enough to try the stunt).

Fourshadow wrote:
Holt wrote:
Cool stuff guys. Thanks for the help, just kind of disappointed that's all there is... guess my next character is going to be spending a lot of money researching new spells... Any advice on converting Frostburn?

Frostburn was 3.5, correct? I don't see why you couldn't take most of the spells you liked straight from there with GM approval.

Boreal Wind, now that was a pretty impressive cold spell, IIRC.

Yes Frostburn was a 3.5 book.

While it probably sounds cool and maybe 'real' it's probably a bad idea for the reason you mention, he'll be behind the rest of the group in level and xp. Potentially this could last months from the sound of the pace of your advancement.

What are the thoughts of the incoming player? Are they relatively new to PF/D&D or a veteran? Is the campaign heavily focused on combat or more skill/non-combat focused? Both less experience as a player and a greater amount of combat will tend to exaggerate the difference in power level of the incoming character. A less combat focused group with the new character having a fairly different skill set will conversely tend to make level difference less an issue (I am largely unfamiliar with RotRL). Further being 3 levels behind at low levels (APL = 4 new guy is 1st) is a more significant power gap than say a character who is 15th joining a party who's average is 18th which has its own set of warts but likely a less significant power gap.

Disintegrate + Gust of Wind, pretty much insures you will need a True Resurrection to bring that one back.

Gaming story:
- My wizard managed to Disintegrate a very nasty BBEG fighter type our newbie GM had lovingly created, the Rogue then managed, in the same round at a later initiative, to UMD a Wand of Wonder which proceeded to duplicate a Gust of Wind ... the look on our DM's face was priceless as we all lost it and broke into "Dust in the Wind" tangents)

Disintegrate cube out of flooring beneath a foe(s). Place Forcecage (barred version) over created hole (ideally Quicken either Disintegrate or Forcecage). Proceed to drop whatever spells you like on (hopefully) trapped target.

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Lots of good ideas here.

License, Registration, Peacebond, Damage Deposit, Laws/Statutes (pertaining to the use of magic, components/pouch, spell or 'prayer' books, etc.), any of which can be used not only for spellcasters but for anyone within the city limits whether adventures or common folk. And all these ideas can be gone into in greater detail if desired.

Very much agree with Anonymous Visitor it can make for a lot of fun as well as adventure hooks.

Mathius wrote:
Thanks. I would love to have contingent dispel magic on my real body but if it is an object then you can not put spells on it.

Well keep in mind that while it is very object like it still has properties that make it you and therefore a creature. The silver cord still forms a link between your mind/spirit and body, 'they' aren't truly separate things. Also any reason the Contingency can't be cast prior to Astral Projection? That bit about object vs creature is more my base starting point for hopefully keeping myself consistent in how I would treat things. Lots of things might alter my 'final answer'.

Mathius wrote:
If I had a polymorph effect up when I cast astral projection would my real body stay changed?

My gut reaction yes, death is generally when your 'trueform' would show up.

Mathius wrote:
I really want to cast it from my own demi plane and have up protection spells but that is difficult if I am now and object.

Are the durations on the protections an issue otherwise why not precast them if this is an problem after casting Astral Projection?

And keep in mind this is all just my 2 cents ... your GM is who gets the final say on how things work.

I can tell you what I do and I think it is what they have said is the intent of the rules as stated above:

If you are making an attack roll then I'm going to treat it as a weapon with all the benefits and penalties of such, it can crit, it can do sneak damage or other precision damage, it can be subject to cover and concealment, you can apply Feats to it, it can auto hit and auto fail to hit, etc., etc..

About the only way magical ranged attacks are different is they do not, by and large, suffer range increment penalties. (so Far Shot is generally not going to matter, for example)

Ranged Touch Attack vs Ranged Attack - changes what modifies the targets AC (no shield, natural armor or armor bonuses) otherwise the same bonuses and penalties are going to apply to the attack roll.

Hopefully I haven't goofed and missed some change between PF and 3.5, I know 3.5 very well and I'm still running into things that are different in PF.

@Denzenaal I'd add the damage then calculate anything based off that damage unless something specifically told me to do otherwise.

Heh, welcome to high level campaigning where the rules sometimes only sort of vaguely make clear what happens and the GM works overtime deciding how it actually works in his campaign.

Or basically there is no clear RAW response to these questions far as I know.

Big chunk of text to follow:

1) - Imprisonment vs the astral body. I'd say I'm mostly going to agree with Zhangar. It will Imprison your astral body. This probably isn't going to appear to an outside observer to be terrible different from being put into Temporal Stasis. The Astral normally has no "surface", no place you can be "in a small sphere far below the ground." So I would simply place you in suspended animation right there probably in small personal sized sphere where time simply doesn't flow (which given the local Timeless planar trait might be hard to see as different). Meanwhile your corporeal body back on the Prime is also still in suspended animation from your casting Astral Projection. There is no set or specific duration to Astral Projection ... it can continue indefinitely until time and the prime material cease to exist where you are (and maybe beyond if your campaign is a tad unusual). This is where I differ from Zhangar's response as he implies that there is a limit to the duration on Astral Projection (maybe he didn't intend this given the next portion of his post). Far as I can see there is none, you decide when to return to your prime material body and end the spell unless something ends it 'prematurely'.

2) - Imprisonment vs the 'second' corporeal form. Pretty much as above except the planar conditions will likely be different starting with there is more likely a surface that you can be placed far beneath etc..

The Astral Projection spell pretty much assumes the caster is on the Prime Material. Given high level play (as it exists now vs when this spell was first written) this stands a reasonable chance of not being true so one of the first decisions a GM will need to make is does this spell even work if the caster is not on the Prime Material and if that's the case what are the limits if any? For example, the caster is attempting or wants to use Astral Projection from his own private (and well defended) demi-plane does it work and how does it work (silver cords, color pools, etc.)

As for Trap the Soul - works on the target 'spirit' so yes I'd say it'll work on the astral body and the second planar body if its formed. Think it would tend to 'fizzle' if the casters (soulless aka spiritless) body in suspended animation is the target.

Parasitic Soul - 3rd party spell I'm guessing? Without knowing more I'd say see above.

Binding - should work but getting the caster to sit around for a minute might make this pretty near impossible to work regardless.

Temporal Stasis - Works on the traveler, the spirit but not the spiritless body at home.

As a general rule I'd lean towards treating the body of the caster on the Prime (or where ever they were when they cast Astral Projection) as an 'object' as far as spells go while treating the astral body or body formed on another plane as a 'creature' since it currently houses the caster's 'spirit', soul or consciousness.

Lastly I haven't seen or read any of Pathfinder Chronicles: The Great Beyond.

More or less agree with Buri. Even if the spell duplicated with Wish is 6th level or lower it's still basically a Wish spell and 9th level.

On the other hand I see no reason the original Wish couldn't be phrased so as to be contingent (normal English meaning not the spell) but that might also, depending on the GM (and similar disclaimers), not be a 'bullet point' usage.

I've always based my thinking around the +1 Sword equals 2000gp (base cost not crafting or if I was getting complicated some modified local market cost, etc.) and gone from there. To a large extent it doesn't even matter as long as you are consistent and the PC's power level is where you wish it to be. It's a bit of an art not a bookkeeping and financial statement.

Keep in mind ones Climb speed is 1/4 your base speed. So accelerated climb speed for a giant is 20 ft (double move 40ft) ... unless I'm figuring something wrong myself.

CRB Climb skill text wrote:
Check: With a successful Climb check, you can advance up, down, or across a slope, wall, or other steep incline (or even across a ceiling, provided it has handholds) at one-quarter your normal speed. A slope is considered to be any incline at an angle measuring less than 60 degrees; a wall is any incline at an angle measuring 60 degrees or more.

Now for fun place an Iron Golem nearby ... how close (or far away) do you want to place him?

Reading the thread started to make my head hurt. For me its simple, distance from source of effect equals greatest chance for injury (unless you're my Iron Golem). I'm going to figure the distance and apply one of the categories in damage to the creature, no multiple squares or multiple distances involved, just worst category.

As for RAW unless this is PFS the RAW is very simple, my game my rules see rule 0. I'm not going to inflict 3d4 on a large creature who happens to straddle two 'zones' while dealing only 2d4 to an Orc in a closer 'zone'. So bottom line all this discussion matters very little other than to potentially sway any GM reading the thread. But ultimately that GM is going to make a ruling and that as they say is that.

Ahh my bad then, please continue :)

Spell combat is not necessarily melee combat but an entirely different thing altogether. My own wizard is far more likely in fact to be using a ranged touch attack, than a melee attack (even a melee touch attack) if he is even using a spell requiring an attack roll of any kind.

Then there is this (from the section on Concentration CRB, bolded parts my doing):

Vigorous motion while casting...........10 + spell level
Violent motion while casting............15 + spell level
Extremely violent motion while casting..20 + spell level


Vigorous Motion: If you are riding on a moving mount, taking a bouncy ride in a wagon, on a small boat in rough water, belowdecks in a storm-tossed ship, or simply being jostled in a similar fashion, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the level of the spell you're casting) or lose the spell.

Violent Motion: If you are on a galloping horse, taking a very rough ride in a wagon, on a small boat in rapids or in a storm, on deck in a storm-tossed ship, or being pitched roughly about in a similar fashion, you must make a concentration check (DC 15 + the level of the spell you're casting) or lose the spell. If the motion is extremely violent, such as that caused by an earthquake, the DC is equal to 20 + the level of the spell you're casting.

And I'd tack on any damage occurring while casting i.e. Violent Motion = 15 + spell level + damage dealt (plus other mods as appropriate - Wind, Rain, Dust, Defensive Casting etc.)

And this doesn't even touch on the whether the target is in Range the whole time or even visible a certain amount of time (Did you just ride around or through the Barn, House or Inn)

Personally I'd be tempted to house rule it along the break lines of mounted combat as well i.e Move, Double Move and Run/Gallop (Vigorous, Violent and Extremely Violent).

PSusac wrote:

Use the giant's height against them:

Stinking cloud is a 20' high disk. Cast this spell at a height so that it is centered 16' off the ground, resulting in a cloud that is 6' off the ground.

This lets your fighter types attack them without being in the area of the spell, while still being in base-to base contact with the giants. Because the Giant's heads are in the cloud, they will get a 20% miss chance against the fighters, and will have to make a fort save every round they are in the cloud. Sure this is an easy save for them, but if you save this for a big fight, you should force a lot of saves over the course of the combat.

It also blocks the giants line of sight for their boulders, while still letting your archers attack. It's just all goodness.

Note this sort of trick will work for many spells that don't specify that they must be in contact with the ground/horizontal surface such as Wall of Force or Wall of Fire or several of the Fog/Cloud type spells including Stinking Cloud at least by RAW. I could see table variation here with the GM saying that the various Fog's do require being placed on a surface, RAI and RAW might be different here. And it doesn't make the general tactic, thinking in 3 dimensions, invalid.

@ Fromper - AFAIK most (all?) of the Pit spells are 10x10ft and most giants are in fact Large size (Cloud and Storm being the exceptions among the basic 6) so even without 'squeezing' they fit albeit they fill the area. Most creatures don't actually take up all the room in the squares they occupy either, with notable exceptions such as a Gelatinous Cube. They will however generally have no issues reaching to brace against 'opposite' walls of a 10x10 opening/Pit.

@Umbranus - My only thought here is again some table variation. While if they interact with the sloping edges I can see needing another Reflex save I'd point out they also have reach (as much as 15ft with the core 6 giants) and I can also see GM saying they reach over the 5ft sloped edge to grasp beyond the sloped portion and pull themselves free or similar thinking particularly since they aren't being 'surprised' by the sudden appearance of the Pit and can grab hand and foot holds where desired within reach. I can also see the giant 'continue' to use Climb checks to climb over the sloped edges, with sloped edges being even easier to climb than the vertical walls of the Pit.

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*passes blahpers a Rod of Lordly might and says 'push button #3'*


The only real issue that fighting Giants brings to mind vs fighting Orcs is size and that is really only an issue if you are fighting numbers of Giants. Trying to hit 8 Giants vs 8 Orcs is often much more difficult for the simple fact 8 Giants will be spread over a much larger area which tends to make targeting/AoE's more an issue. Otherwise as others have said if they get a save make it against Reflex or Will.

I don't know that Bards per se made magical fruit in the world of Athas. However, Potions in general, were not the typical potions found in vials but instead contained with magical 'Potion Fruits'. So you would eat the fruit instead of drinking a vial of liquid to get the magical effect of the 'potion'. Needless to say protecting the plant which bore the fruit was important.

sunshadow21 wrote:
JoeJ wrote:

I don't think it needs buffing, but it does need significant reworking for variety, so that clerics of different gods aren't all casting the same spells. Clerics of Aphrodite, Apollo, and Poseidon, for example, should not have the same spell lists. That was one thing that 2e did better than any version since, IMO.

Exactly. I want a class that receives power from different sources to reflect that in play. Not have all sources ultimately end up providing the exact same spells the vast majority of the time.

This is precisely the only real problem I ever felt clerics and their spell lists ever had.

A plenty powerful, strong list for a "generic" cleric even for several different roles
Lousy list for giving any true variety and flavor for spells across a typical pantheon of deities (even a small one), at least while expecting each to be an effective participant in an adventuring group.

I once started attempting to convert a very thoroughly written and thematic pantheon of deities giving each respective cleric their own individualized spell list (and a very small pantheon of 9). Basically impossible without taking what I had and creating a bunch of new spells to fill in gaping holes that showed up. Dividing the wizard list into 9 different themes is certainly readily done (i.e. schools).

1) No, see above. You are already in astral form.

2) Depends. It doesn't go into it in the spell and it will depend largely on what the GM decides for his campaign. Things like "Silver Swords " which aren't just any 'silver sword' but a particular type of sword belonging to a specific Astral dwelling creature that due to copy write/not part of the OGL stuff (I believe) doesn't 'exist' in PF (i.e. Githyanki iirc). In general a silver cord is not going to get randomly or easily 'cut' and I don't recall any spells that specifically sunder the silver cord though I'd hazard to guess I'm forgetting one or two that might. There are not any in the CRB that I am aware of.

3) The part below in italics (which I added) is the most pertinent part in the rules I believe.

Glossary CRB wrote:

Effect Spells: Most effect spells summon or create something and are not subject to spell resistance. Sometimes, however, spell resistance applies to effect spells, usually to those that act upon a creature more or less directly, such as web.

Spell resistance can protect a creature from a spell that's already been cast. Check spell resistance when the creature is first affected by the spell.

Check spell resistance only once for any particular casting of a spell or use of a spell-like ability. If spell resistance fails the first time, it fails each time the creature encounters that same casting of the spell. Likewise, if the spell resistance succeeds the first time, it always succeeds. If the creature has voluntarily lowered its spell resistance and is then subjected to a spell, the creature still has a single chance to resist that spell later, when its spell resistance is back up.

Spell resistance has no effect unless the energy created or released by the spell actually goes to work on the resistant creature's mind or body. If the spell acts on anything else and the creature is affected as a consequence, no roll is required. Spell-resistant creatures can be harmed by a spell when they are not being directly affected.

Spell resistance does not apply if an effect fools the creature's senses or reveals something about the creature.

Magic actually has to be working for spell resistance to apply. Spells that have instantaneous durations but lasting results aren't subject to spell resistance unless the resistant creature is exposed to the spell the instant it is cast.

Basically the first time you attempt to move into the area of the Dimensional Lock the you make an SR check. If you succeed you can ignore the spells effects. At least that's how I read it and would run it. If you attempt to Teleport make the check, if you fail the Teleport fails and you have used that usage (memorized, slot, SLA or whatever) or succeed and have fun ignoring that casting of Dimensional Lock.

Orfamay Quest wrote:
Mathius wrote:

Very true Claxon but I am not the GM if I post "The paranoids guide to home security" I want to build something and post it.

This wizard rules a the world and the mighty heros want to depose him. How do you do it?

Heroically. Almost by definition.

As you point out, "after you build it, you have others look for ways to tear through it" -- nothing designed by a merely mortal mind will be perfect.

I think the wishport is impossible to block -- "regardless of local conditions" is pretty all-encompassing -- but it's easy enough to defend against. A reactive wish, for example, that anyone wishporting in will also be wishported away to the moons of Saturn, or that you be removed to a place of safety, would handle it.

Largely Wishport is almost by definition impossible to block but that is one reason why I always make it clear to my players early on that any and all Wishes and Miracles draw the attention of, if not the direct intervention of the Powers. If you cast a Wish to transport yourself and the party I'm going to use this to get creative as a GM if I feel I need to. You are trying to desperately escape 'certain death' and I feel the party has overall acted wisely and with some thought then most likely they get lifted from harms way ... and conversely if they are using it as a cheap frequent trick to bypass the adventure and/or acting stupidly then maybe they suddenly find themselves in the presence of a Deity or Power and have some explaining to do or a debt to said Power to pay off for having the temerity to use such Wishes repeatedly or whatever else reminds them not to 'abuse magic'. Actions have consequences, including (or especially) the action of repeatedly spending 25k to cheesily stomp an adventure.

Second it also gets back to the whole how the multiverse of the campaign works per the GM. For example, in the Planescape setting if you get within a 100 miles (as I recall) of the center of the Plane of Concordant Opposition (where the Spire rises up out of sight towards City of Doors aka Sigil) all magic including Divine magic ceases to work. A Wish or Miracle fails by default here even if a Deity is involved (even if the deity is the one using Wish). It goes stepwise and as you get closer to the center you start losing 1st level spells 900 miles out, then 2nd within 800 miles etc.. till magic simple ceases to work. This general idea did not originate with Planescape either but stemmed from earlier thoughts on the subject.

And then of course the GM can always decide that things like Mythic and/or Epic spells and powers can prevent the 'normal' bullet point and beyond usages of Wish as well as getting into deciding just how Wish and Miracle interact with the universe bending rules of Mythic and Epic 'stuff'.

Best bet is strong protections from Divination magic and secrecy. I once ran a BBEG who almost always teleported to his secret home, always Mind Blanked etc. Once home he always took a quick, immediate few steps and walked thru a Permanent Prismatic Wall under the assumption that if some foe had Shapeshifted and was taking a 'ride along' with him as a flea or bit of dirt etc. that when he moved thru the Prismatic Wall it would strip any such unwelcomed riders off even if he was unaware of them (owing to whatever protections the intruder had going) He also had a fair number of false doors about the structure which if he became aware of any stealthy intruders tailing him or the like, he'd open the false door and the Symbol on the inside would get activated hopefully with unpleasant results for the intruder(s). Obviously also worked fine if any of the intruders opened the false door(s) themselves as well. He even had a few with Permanent Phase Doors behind the false door+symbol set ups.

Possible steps:
1)Keep it hidden and secret, that includes any info about who or what is inside your fortress and its layout. Mind Blank, Screen, False Vision and Sequester, among other spells, are your friends.
2)As a follow up to #1 use disinformation as well and hope the foe takes the bait. Be forewarned and set traps (in the big sense of the word). Change portions of the layout regularly.
3) Wish and its use to go anywhere can be/will be very problematic. The goal for me would be two fold. First know as much as possible how your GM is likely to handle it ... maybe they're holding to Claxon's point of view and it'll be moot. If not then secondly, do as much as possible to create conditions which will make it a non-bullet point usage and hopefully that will deter.
4) See if there is anything you can do to make the ejection save harder to make ... a planar trait or something along the lines of gaining a bonus similar to that in the text of Banishment or, perhaps, create an Antipathy effect:

portion of Banishment text wrote:
Certain rare items might work twice as well as a normal item for the purpose of the bonuses (each providing a +2 bonus on the caster level check against spell resistance and increasing the save DC by 4).

More or less play to Buri's point of making the unwelcomed visitors stay brief (and hopefully painful).

5) The 'normal' entrance via portal. Might be a good area to ward with dead magic or antimagic. Keep in mind that a dead magic or antimagic area does not effect a Prismatic Sphere (or Wall or another area of antimagic). Even if a foe(s) do gain entry to the fortress getting thru to someone (namely you) who's inside a Primatic Sphere within a dead or antimagic area is going to be very problematic ... should give you a very safe 'panic room' to retreat to as needed. Take note of the fun things you might do with the Shape trait. Always entertaining to catch someone with the same trap twice.
6) And last keep in mind if your foe is here, they are not there (at home). Might be the perfect time to use your magic to invade their fortress.

So far in my limited PF experience, highly colored by these forums I'd have to put Dazing spell at the top of my problematic list. As for banning depends. Most of the time I don't ban much if anything. When I do ban, alter or tweak things it's generally for thematic reasons or other campaign reasons not because I find it "overpowered". Overpowered is an overused word heard overmuch ...

Mathius wrote:

Nothing is impregnably but the dead magic plane seams pretty close. Needing 3 mythic abilities to put limited wish on the item plus tier 9 or 10 seams pretty good.

The dead magic is defiantly a local condition but does a spell count a local condition?

Can you target someone you do not have line of sight or effect to for the travel use of wish?

Can wish get you into a MMM uninvited? If so then I better come up with ways to defend the interior.

I personally would be very leary of making the entire fortress (the entire demiplane) a dead magic zone. I can safely say if my foe, an arcane caster of great repute, was to do so I'd be thinking "well that was awfully nice of them" with no sarcasm intended. Pretty much falls into the category of doing my enemies work for them. That is not to say that I might not have some portion of the fortress a dead magic area/trap.

In reference to the earlier question of can you Plane Shift into a dead magic area the answer appears to be a definitive no per RAW (bolding mine):

Game Mastery Guide, section on Planar Adventures wrote:
Dead Magic: These planes have no magic at all. A plane with the dead magic trait functions in all respects like an antimagic field spell. Divination spells cannot detect subjects within a dead magic plane, nor can a spellcaster use teleport or another spell to move in or out. The only exception to the “no magic” rule is permanent planar portals, which still function normally.

A Dead Magic area created by use of a spell is (in my opinion only of course) not automatically a "local condition". It still falls under the idea of does a spell create a local condition (and my answer to that is generally going to be no it does not). Make it permanent then perhaps. One occurring naturally is a local condition. That said if you are trying to use a Wish to travel into or out of the area ... well if you are willing to risk the "greater effects than these" clause then yes I would let you regardless of whether it's considered a local condition or not. There are also additional caveats that would in general apply to such things in my campaigns such as a Wish used for greater effects calls upon the local Powers to aid in the granting ... careful where you are when using that Wish in other words. For that matter Wish and Miracle both draw the attention of the local Power(s) when used even if those Power(s) do not aid or otherwise doing anything in response (even when using the bullet point portions of those spells). In my campaigns those spells just inherently draw the attention of Powers when used.

Can you target someone you do not have line of sight or effect to for the travel use of wish?

I agree with Alleran, yes but you had best be able to identify them quite accurately for it to fall under the bullet point usage. They may elect to attempt a Save and SR as appropriate.

As for gaining entry against the caster's desires to a MMM. I'd let you attempt to go pretty much anywhere (probably even anywhen as well ... but that's another entire thread :p) using a Wish. If you were one of my players just keep in mind those thoughts about Wish (and Miracle) usage above. So yes Wish would let you do that (or as you pointed out let your foe(s) do it to you).

wraithstrike wrote:

That limitation on wish and local conditions is likely referring to the conjuration school rule of "It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it." It also stops you from dropping people onto the surface of the sun, but with Wish you can do that.

As an example you can't normally summon a nonflying creature into mid-air. That stops the whale drop tactic, as an example. I don't think it mean you get to count dimensional travel blocking magic or anti-magic areas as local conditions to bypass them.

This question/issue came up in at least one other thread I can recall. I personally think it can refer to conditions other than simply ignoring the bit about a supportable surface mentioned under Conjuration school notes. Both in the original Greyhawk based modules (Descent into the Depths etc.) and campaign materials dealing with the Underdark of Faerun make mention of not being able to teleport out of their respective Underdark regions owing to magical interference with such magic over distances of greater than a mile (or something to that effect). I think a Wish could be used to bypass such conditions as well. Bottom line it really isn't specified what is meant by 'local conditions' and is pretty much the GM's call.


1) Maybe, leaning towards no.
- What's the cosmology of the campaign? Plane Shift is a teleportation subschool spell. Access to the Astral Plane is required for it to function properly. Is, for example, the Shadow Plane bordering (coterminous or coexistent) the Astral or not in the campaign. If it isn't then no teleportation to and from the Shadow Plane. And any dead magic area created via the Create Demiplane spell while on the Shadow Plane would be impervious to a Plane Shift spell by RAW ... but that depends entirely on the GM's vision of the cosmology of his campaign. And that has nothing to do with the demiplane being a dead magic area.
To answer the underlying question no I do not think one can teleport or otherwise magically move either into or out of a dead magic area as a general rule. Wish I'd probably let work under the caveat of "greater effects possible".

2) If you aren't the creator of the dead magic demiplane in this hypothetical question good friggin' luck with that one it's going to require some intense research if I was the GM. If you are the creator you already know the properties of the fork needed.

3) Not typically but see Wish.

4) I'd probably let you, it's your plane so to speak.

5) I'd have to go look at the Gate spell but running out of time right now to respond and my reflex answer is yes I'd let you create as many as you'd like ... make it porous as a sieve if you like. Again it is your creation your plane. (But like a huge chunk of the stuff at this level and in Create Demiplane specifically) it is very GM dependent. The is no RAW rules for a lot of the issues that come up.

As a corollary to using Still metamagic avoid the use of spells with Somatic components. Only spells with somatic components incur an arcane failure chance in the first place.

I typically used a method much like KestrelZ's. I'd have lists made out very similar to the ones he mentioned. I had one used for traveling overland to and from the "adventure site" or moving about potentially hostile 'outdoor/wilderness' environs, one usually focused around the nature of the adventure site itself (combat, usually with it favoring spells useful against the expected foe types such as undead or Giants or dealing with magical traps/puzzles etc.) and one for when we were at our homebase or when moving about a 'friendly' location such as a large town, the king's court and similar (more defensive in nature, offensive stuff that doesn't obliterate the local friendly population and structures. I'd start with one of these lists and then tweak it for the current situation. I also tended not to duplicate any spell unless something about the current situation demanded it (like buffing everyone with Stoneskin) and I never really did the leave a slot open thing ... covered that well enough usually via scrolls, wands etc. Only in later levels (18th and beyond, more or less) did I see much duplication and then it was more along the lines of Fireball, Empowered Fireball, Quickened Fireball and the like rather than Fireballx3)

My divinations, by and large, were more along the lines of 'let's take a peek at what's ahead' scouting type as mentioned above >> Arcane Eye, Prying Eyes, Clairvoyance and the Detect/See type rather than Contact or Commune sort. I was also a Loremaster with silly amounts of UMD, Knowledges and, of course, the various Loremaster abilities. The party consisted of myself, a Rogue and Sorcerer ... all of us with quantities of Wands, Scrolls and UMD. We got into UMD as a group in large part because of the lack of divine support and curative magic and it just went from there.

I also think Tony hit it right of the head overall. Particularly note his first paragraph.

Duh, Chicken of course.

Then you use Prestidigitation and it tastes however you wish it to taste.

Or perhaps one should redirect this to a wizard lacking one or more senses other than taste obviously.

demontroll wrote:

Say a player makes a barbarian with rage and power attack and he carries a big two handed hammer. For that character his tool set consists of a big hammer. And to that character, every problem is going to look like a nail that needs to be pounded with his hammer.

I think you can use Pathfinder for what you want to do, but you are going to have to communicate your vision with your players so they can make versatile characters with more than one tool in their toolbox.

That's where the second part of your post comes into play. Letting the player know so he can get creative with a seemingly singularly focused character. Maybe SMASH must use that hammer on things other than foes that need killing. SMASH meet annoying boulder in the way, turns it to pebbles faster than anyone else could. Or drives in spikes holding the rope bridge or uses massive strength to pull the anchors of the bridge out. Or digs and smashes his way thru to those trapped in the cave-in before they run out of air (or food or water etc.) SMASH always did have a soft spot for baby kittens >> SMASH can have all sorts of dimensions the game never bothers with creating stats or having mechanics for (like soft spots for baby kittens) that the player can give him.

And if or when SMASH actually does go all medievil, Raging and Power Attacking the Dragon that just burnt his favorite kitty of all to a crisp (along with the rest of the town) it will be all that more memorable because there is more to SMASH than just smashing an endless supply of creatures. Players just need some encouragement (sometimes) to see their 'one tool' as a Swiss Army knife and not just a singular blunt instrument for slaughter.

DesertTreeclimber wrote:
Still, I wonder how important the specific rules system is vs. the actual roleplaying--do the specific rules or the people you've gathered shape the story more? (This is a serious non-rhetorical question for any experienced GM who's tried vaguely similar campaigns on different rule sets.)
Kayerloth wrote:
Lastly Pathfinder/3.5/d20 is immensely versatile ruleset and can accommodate a very wide range of styles. That said the rules be they d20 based or any of the many others out there all mean virtually nothing compared to the person running them. A lousy GM will mangle any rules system while a great GM can do magic with a lousiest of systems.

Pretty much why I made this last statement, restated above. The rules set is almost trivial when compared to the GM and players involved. Certainly the rules system used can help or hinder the GM (and players) but I definitely believe a highly competent GM will make for an enjoyable experience no matter what rule system they are using ... of course choosing a system which helps and minimally hinders their own style is part of what makes them "competent".

Okay, I need to go to dinner, thanks anyone who’s still with me, but one last thought/question--Would creating a sandbox world and then getting some test subjects to play oneshots in it be a good way to start GMing?

Short Answer: Yes they don't even necessarily have to be one shots, they could be "episodes" one shots that connect in the background but stand alone just fine. Or whatever else you are comfortable doing.

Longer Answer: Long time ago (late 1978) my new friend, who I'd met at the college freshman get together, said he had this game he wanted to try out. Shortly after I found myself as a first time player with a first time DM doing a one on one run with the pregen characters (me trying to play all 6 <O.O>) in the back of the TSR module "Tomb of Horrors". Needless to say between us we managed to kill off the entire party with the majority of the adventure still unseen. The last two characters dying to a pair (trio?) of nasties that jumped out of a 'treasure' chest not far inside the dungeon entrance. This would not be my first recommendation on how to go about learning the game or how to learn to GM ... but it must have worked anyway I'm still doing this 3+ decades later.

- Start as they say at the beginning.
- Start small even if you are thinking big, keep it manageable (includes books, rules, options etc.). You can always add stuff but taking away things after the players already have it is tough. Worry about what's actually in the "here be dragons" reaches of the map when the players start moving beyond their Hommlet or Eveningstar (at least in any detail).
- Same goes for rewards, go easy. It's much easier (and less 'hostile') to add extra rewards later than to have to say sorry guys but going to have to take that back if you feel the PCs need a boost.
- As for not killing stuff for xp, just broaden the view on what defeat means. Talking, bluffing or sneaking past the guards = 'defeating'. Reward good roleplay and non-violent solutions and let your players know what that 'extra' 50 xp is for. Let them know upfront how your plan to run stuff whether it's rewarding non-violent solutions, that moral dilemma's will happen and grey areas exist or that they may run into things they aren't supposed to be able to defeat. Bottom line you can reward xp how every you see fit and for what ever you see fit. I'd probably start following the guidelines in the book (with the broader idea of defeat) before trying the numerous alternate methods out there.
- Don't be afraid to say "NO!" to something that doesn't fit your vision or version of the universe. Likewise don't be afraid to say yes even if it's just mentally to something the players want or do and go with it. Sometimes the best ideas come from things the players (or characters) say or do. Altering your story on the fly from the "plan" based on something a character says or does can be very rewarding. Don't get locked into "the one true way". The best story is written by everyone involved.
- And don't be afraid to make mistakes or admit to them, it is going to happen.

Lastly Pathfinder/3.5/d20 is immensely versatile ruleset and can accommodate a very wide range of styles. That said the rules be they d20 based or any of the many others out there all mean virtually nothing compared to the person running them. A lousy GM will mangle any rules system while a great GM can do magic with a lousiest of systems.

Or lay out some pain ahead of time. You can't target a creature but if the spell is an AoE whose duration outlasts the Time Stop its effects start as soon as normal time resumes:

Mind Fog
Acid Fog
Black Tentacles
Flaming Sphere
Polar Midnight

and probably a bunch more could be left, fire and forget style, to chew up any foes in the area after the Time Stop ends.

Suichimo wrote:


Yes, it is powerful and it is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to what Wizards can do.

Indeed ... hello Widened Sunburst if you want to mass kill a bunch of 1st level commoners. That will wipe a football field with its 160 radius burst effect.

Or without using Metamagic a Meteor Swarm can cover a pretty good swath of land. (4x40ft radius spherical bursts)

But if your wizard is fighting Large or Huge sized creatures that are not pretending to be sardines you'll find a 20ft radius to be rather meager if faced with more than a half dozen, never mind Gargantuan or Colossal sized foes.

Or put another way a single acre is 43,560 sq ft against which 1256 sq ft pales in comparison.

PS Edit: And the Fireball is still a sphere ... it just doesn't expand to fill the entire volume anymore. I can recall one friend who managed to hit the rear of the party with his fireball when it expanded back around through corridors they hadn't yet mapped out when he dumped a fireball into a room with 'unknown' exits.

Bigdaddyjug wrote:
It says that on the PRD. Here's the link.

LOL thanks, I must have developed sleep deprived reading issues ... read that same text several times and never actually read it apparently. The appropriate portion of the sentence stood out like a sore thumb this time around. Amazing how ones brain can get locked into seeing what it thinks it should.

It's rare, but a good GM is the scariest thing.

and similar posts above

Combined with something you've never encountered (neither in nor out of character)

Nothing is quite as scary to my mind as the unknown. Imagination runs wild especially with a GM who you know likes to create stuff.

edit: Reminds me of my players reaction when "the creature" chased them out the postern gate, which they slammed shut, only to watch as the door first smoldered, then charred, the burst into flame as the creature came through the door at their badly injured party ... nothing says fear like an entire group of players rapidly and desperately searching character sheets looking for something, anything to try and slow down much less defeat the unknown apparently invincible foe coming at them.

Bigdaddyjug wrote:

<snipped to avoid big box of quotes>

Not exactly. Spellcraft DCs are affected by the same penalties as perception checks. If a spell is affected by Silent and Still spell you can neither see nor hear it being cast, and an appropriate boost to the spellcraft DC would be well within the rules. I don't think it should be as harsh as the +20 invisibility adds to perception DCs. I wouldn't have any problem with the +4 adds to perception DCs for being deaf.

To be clear neither would I necessarily be against modifiers but far as I know they would be 'invented' at the table by the GM. So where does it say the Spellcraft DC is effected by the same modifiers as a Perception check or any other modifiers at all other than level (beyond the GM deciding one is appropriate)? Is there a FAQ or Errata I'm unaware of?

And assuming the character has already made a Perception check to perceive the caster (at 60ft through a light rain at dusk while hidden in the rose bushes or what ever) isn't it sort of a double jeopardy kind of thing to make the same mods apply again to his Spellcraft DC or are you using them only on the Spellcraft DC check rather than a Perception check?

I have a tendency to ignore (as the GM and allow the PC's the same) the 'must be vertical' part of the text in many of the Wall spells including Prismatic Wall (in part because how do you place such Walls on the Ethereal or Astral planes for example) ... Prismatic Wall plus Reverse Gravity is an interesting combo. As is an Illusory Wall right in front of a Prismatic Wall or Disintegrating a chunk of flooring over top a Prismatic Wall/Sphere located at the bottom of the previously covered pit.

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