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Kayerloth's page

Pathfinder Society Member. 1,170 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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Tossing some spitballs back :p

1) No Somatic component, no arcane spell failure.
2) Mithral armors are at -10% arcane spell failure.
3) Still Spell metamagic is at +1 spell level and eliminates any arcane spell failure chance.
4) Cleric/Divine caster doesn't need to worry about ASF and get a number of very nice buffs (Divine Favor, Divine Power etc.). They get Bull Strength but I'm going to guess by the time you can cast it you're likely to be able to afford it (or at least it'll be a small window before that's true).

Good point about Bull Rush and that is more or less what I would assume. Still it's a bit odd since both tripping and grappling would also require moving or manipulating an opponent to fail to mention bull rush as well.


I guess one way I can agree with the no random portion to the spell is that the damage described is not scaled to the caster level but size of the object. In other words the same object hurled by casters of differing levels does the same damage. The only change is the higher level caster can potentially hurl a heavier object.

Size of hole covered (need a big enough one for LoE).

If the barrel is in motion concentration check involved.

Moving/Mobility is going to be a serious issue unless using more magic(i.e. Floating Disc etc.).

Adamantine or other metal construction. Expense, weight and further mobility issues as a result. And as mentioned vulnerability to certain spells (What do you mean the barrel has been Greased?!). Then again riding a mount makes one similarly vulnerable so *shrug*.

Ability to end up in your own prison ... what do you mean the wizard used Arcane Lock on the barrel?

On the other hand I have a soft spot for:

Wondrous 2-man Barrel contraption:
Apparatus of the Crab

Aura strong evocation and transmutation; CL 19th

Slot none; Price 90,000 gp; Weight 500 lbs.


At first glance, an inactive apparatus of the crab appears to be a large, sealed iron barrel big enough to hold two Medium creatures. Close examination, and a DC 20 Perception check, reveals a secret catch that opens a hatch at one end. Anyone who crawls inside finds 10 (unlabeled) levers and seating for two Medium or Small occupants. These levers allow those inside to activate and control the apparatus's movements and actions.
Lever (1d10) Lever Function
1 Extend/retract legs and tail
2 Uncover/cover forward porthole
3 Uncover/cover side portholes
4 Extend/retract pincers and feelers
5 Snap pincers
6 Move forward/backward
7 Turn left/right
8 Open/close “eyes” with continual flame inside
9 Rise/sink in water
10 Open/close hatch

Operating a lever is a full-round action, and no lever may be operated more than once per round. However, since two characters can fit inside, the apparatus can move and attack in the same round. The device can function in water up to 900 feet deep. It holds enough air for a crew of two to survive 1d4+1 hours (twice as long for a single occupant). When activated, the apparatus looks something like a giant lobster.

When active, an apparatus of the crab has the following characteristics: hp 200; hardness 15; Spd 20 ft., swim 20 ft.; AC 20 (–1 size, +11 natural); Attack 2 pincers +12 melee (2d8); CMB +14; CMD 24.

I'd be fine with Empower, Maximize, etc. working with the violent thrust aspect of Telekinesis.

I believe the answer is yes keeping in mind that two creatures cannot occupy the same space at the end of a turn and what gear the PC may or may not be wearing. A wraith moving through a PC would have no effect at all on the PC by itself. Causing damage or ability drain etc. still requires an attack roll and the wraith cannot remain in the space with the PC at the end of the turn. Feel free to add any cosmetic/dramatic and purely colorful effect you wish if you so desire i.e. the PC feels a cold chill run up his back etc. but there would be no ingame mechanical effect by RAW.

It is interesting that the rules mention grappling and trip attacks but are quiet on the subject of a bull rush.

LOL yes haremlord that would be right up there with giving away your location by yelling "I'm right here next to the large crate".

If there are no banks ... then welcome to the First (literally) Bank of the Original Poster.

There have been such individuals (and probably institutions) since the idea of money came to be even if they weren't called 'banks' particularly with the growth and development of towns, cities and the mercantile industry.

JamZilla wrote:
In a generally good-aligned community, do you allow your players to get free healing services from the church?

Normally no or if I did it would be the minimum needed to keep a character from dying.

JamZilla wrote:
If so, do you find this reduces the challenge of say, clearing a dungeon of Shadows when they can just pop out and get restored (aside from paying material costs of course).

Yes that would reduce the effective challenge, somewhat akin to having a cohort or healing NPC in the group. About the only difference is they need to survive long enough to leave and seek help.

JamZilla wrote:
What about channelling to heal wounds?

Whether its channeled or spells or some other resource the answer is essentially the same.

JamZilla wrote:
Or if you do charge your players for these kinds of spellcasting services, how do the clerics justify it if they follow a good-aligned God?

How does the ER room justify it? Hint they heal first then seek payment if they don't send you up the road to the next facility. Point being technically it isn't free. And that's if it is potentially life threatening. Not to mention the mound of paperwork proving your need.

If I use this magic on you what about if a follower, one of my flock, shows up needing aid and now I cannot provide it? My deity expects me to use my wisdom to give to those who truly need it, do you? I'll happily give you a warm dry room, food, rest and tend to your wounds "the old fashioned" way if you wish (maybe in a rich well to do area/community). Magic and other highly limited resources are for emergencies not skinned knees and other minor lumps and bumps. And as a good character you should be thinking twice about taking free (and limited) service(s) which might deprive someone who truly needs and cannot afford the service shouldn't you?

Couple thoughts:

Foul Necromancy --
But for posterity's sake:

Sanctuary uses the wording directly in referring to the to the nature of the attack. It also does not prevent a warded creature from being harmed or affected by AoE attacks. If you are under the effects of Sanctuary you are not going to end the warding if you cast Obscuring Mist or Darkness even if foes are in the area. That'll take something like Entangle, Fireball, or Acid Fog. At least that is how I view it and believe RAI.

And yes you can use it on yourself. I had a character use it once, then deliberately move through an area where a large number of foes were set to use AoO's with reach weapons. She drew all the AoO's and the remainder of the party entered and closed with the foes without getting hammered by the AoO's.

haremlord wrote:
Neo2151 wrote:

Er, nevermind! Found the relevant rule in the CRB:

CRB Magic Chapter, pg 208 wrote:

Attacks: Some spell descriptions refer to attacking. All

offensive combat actions, even those that don’t damage
opponents, are considered attacks. Attempts to channel
energy count as attacks if it would harm any creatures
in the area. All spells that opponents resist with saving
throws, that deal damage, or that otherwise harm or
hamper subjects are attacks. Spells that summon monsters
or other allies are not attacks because the spells themselves
don’t harm anyone.

I've been wondering the same thing recently, so thank you for that excerpt.

My question, however, was would firing an arrow with no intent to hit anyone (such as a signal arrow, or, more specifically for the character I'm creating, using a tuned bowstring and just firing an arrow because that's all you have to do to use it) be considered an "offensive combat action" (since firing an arrow is typically used offensively).

I'll just wait to talk to the GM to find out his take on it.

Thanks again!

If you "fire" an arrow off with no intent to harm and or no attack roll I, as a GM, would not have it break Invisibility or trigger a save vs Sanctuary (or cause Sanctuary to end if you were warded). I would how ever point out in the case of Invisibility that the arrow would become visible and the noise from shooting the arrow are both solid reasons to potentially cause your position to be revealed (i.e. allow a foe to learn which square you were in ... you moved after firing right :D))

Far Shot will reduce penalties do to range:

CRB wrote:

Far Shot (Combat)

You are more accurate at longer ranges.

Prerequisites: Point-Blank Shot.

Benefit: You only suffer a –1 penalty per full range increment between you and your target when using a ranged weapon.

Normal: You suffer a –2 penalty per full range increment between you and your target.

Note this is a change from 3.5 where Far Shot increased your range increment rather than reducing the penalties associated with the increments.

An excellent point and example ... (probably why I'm still working this out in my head)

Your priest should not be acting during the surprise round (the mistake I'm making that you are pointing out). Only the Rogue should be. After the Rogue's attack then the Priest gets to change his course of action and would act first in the first round of combat. To make your example similar make it a group ceremony with multiple priests about to CDG the sacrifice. My mistake is the same, which if it was ingame would've been caught (I hope). If unaware (i.e. oblivious to the ambusher) they don't get to act in the surprise round. If aware and win initiative they blow the ambush. If aware but slow to respond is where it gets sticky. Mechanically there's no difference between the surprised guards and aware/unsurprised slower acting but still flat footed guards do to the nature of D20 combat at least vs the first surprise round attack. The difference shows up during the actual first round when our aware guards are now no longer flat-footed (and presumably also not still running) where the surprised guards are both still running and flat-footed.

I also stand by the idea the guards have committed to the Run action and allowing them to change their intended plan without a reason is ... wrong, conceptually at least.

I get your point Diego, two thoughts:

First that's why if I was the GM any potential ambushers lingering near the front door of the tavern would be disappointed by the guards. They simply would not go running right up the door without some very very good reason for it.

Second assuming the guards were idiotic enough to continue running they would in fact be running when the initiative started as that is their intended plan. Changing that to something else when they are unaware of the foe would be some serious metagaming ... and yes if the players told me they intended to actual Run into the tavern I would assume, if they were oblivious to the ambushing foe, that they would on their initiative continue with their previously stated plan. And they would then find out why that was not a particularly bright course of action. And also why if they were aware the plan is blown out of the water by any foes who win initiative as those foes (or players) could change their previously intended plan based on their new knowledge. The tough part is if they both win initiative but are oblivious to the ambusher they would by winning initiative actually run past the ambusher prior to his actual carrying out the attack ... the guy behind them acting slower is the one getting stuck hard. (I'm still kind of working that part out in my head)

I'd also tend to agree that I'd probably be okay with piling on both the brace double damage and sneak damage to the first poor sot to get stuck. There isn't anything to indicate with certainty that the Ready action is obvious. I do tend to agree however that hiding the fact you are setting against the charge is a tough sell but see Scott's post as evidence that it is something one can potentially do and do so very rapidly if need be. Then it becomes more a question of does one allow a character without those abilities to copy those abilities by overcoming them via success with skill checks with high DCs (particularly if not allowing the players access to those source materials).

Columbia Games Harnworld Materials contain numerous detailed maps of castles.

They did however suggest that it might be reasonable to apply a -5 penalty per spell component removed, but were clear that such would be a house rule and not actually supported by the rules. I believe it was also clarified that if you did this, the spell could still be identified because as I mentioned there are manifestations of the spell around the character that can still be seen even if there are no components that the character must supply for the spell.

The other problem for me when considering adopting the above as a houserule is it also fails to account for why it is no more or less difficult to identify something like Power Word Stun (only a V component) vs Sunburst (with V and S and M components) to begin with.

And for the record your Spellcraft check is effected by the same mods as if it were a Perception check:

CRB, Skill Descriptions wrote:
Action: Identifying a spell as it is being cast requires no action, but you must be able to clearly see the spell as it is being cast, and this incurs the same penalties as a Perception skill check due to distance, poor conditions, and other factors.

Reading things for about the billionth time.

Ready is a Standard Action, a preparatory action for another action you take later and resets your initiative. That later action is what can be a standard, move, swift or free action.

The preparatory or special initiative action in this case is 'set against a charge'

Whether this act is obvious or not is completely open as far as I can tell to the GM's judgement and however he wishes to handle it.

The encounter starts and initiative is rolled/decided.

Our OP is already aware and not surprised (In fact it sounds as if he is deliberately setting an ambush). Any rolls and or decisions about the guards awareness of what lies ahead them are made. If I were the GM I'd probably wrap this into one contested roll with benchmarks to decide just how much they note about the situation (guy outside door, guy outside door with weapon available, guy with weapon who might be trying to be all sneaky like and poke someone unexpectedly etc.).

So ... Our OP uses a Standard Action called Ready (set against a charge) and this may or may not be obvious subject per GM discretion. He does so at minimum as his Standard Action taken during the surprise round of combat. Note that any aware guards may or may not go ahead of him in the surprise round. Any aware guards that win initiative and I'm thinking the planned ambush/Readied action goes up in smoke as the aware guard(s) shout warnings. If none of them go ahead of him then continue:

Unaware (surprised) guards continue Running and he impales the first idiot to foolishly rush into the situation. (double damage for braced weapon)

Ditto for Aware (not surprised but slower reacting) guards who lost initiative.

Now after everyone has finished the surprise round the first round of combat starts. Any unlucky folks who go after our OP might now get struck again by Mr Tricksy and his reach weapon (Sneak damage vs anyone who lost initiative and is therefore still flat footed).

Yes? No?

Dot de dot dot dot.

To be clear I basically agree with RedDogMT. While Running is not Charging (they are two different actions) Running is definitely a more reckless movement hence the denied Dex and having the damage go back (outside of sneak attack considerations) to normal vs a braced weapon strikes me as wrong if strictly speaking RAW. I personally probably rule that the player could choose to do either braced damage or sneak damage assuming both were options for the character vs a Running character. I would probably not allow both however. The character would have to either focus on precision needed for the sneak or the bracing needing for inflicting the additional damage against a charge.

You can ready as part of surprise. Brace is a weapon quality not an action. The question becomes what sort of readied action is actually readied when you 'set the weapon against a charge'? It doesn't actually say what sort beyond it's a readied action. Problem is readied actions are varied:

Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action.
The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.

Which leaves us where?

Getting any sort of damage more or less assumes the charger/runner continues to attempt his movement (for whatever reason) past the point of impact.

Mostly for me it comes back to the fact the guards are NOT going to run or charge pell mell into the interior of the tavern into deities only know what as that is risky and stupid. A guy standing with an obvious weapon is also NOT going to be ignored until somehow rendered unarmed or less of a potential threat in some manner without some sort of unusual circumstances (like bar fights and other public combat happen once a decade where these guards work). Otherwise halfway intelligent guards order him aside and or to throw his weapons down prior to coming within weapon range.

Anyway need to get offline nasty storms in the area. Be interesting to see where this goes by tomorrow.

Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Mhordekai wrote:
DM_Blake wrote:
Diversion is not the answer - you use it "while people are aware of you". It's for those "OMG, I need to get away and hide" moments. That's the opposite of what the vampire wants to do."
Successfully creating a diversion allows you to use stealth. Nowhere does it say it's only use is to escape a situation.
True - but you still need to book it for cover/concealment in order to stealth. Diversion doesn't let you ignore the cover/concealment requirement of stealth, it only lets you ignore the 'not aware' requirement of stealth.

I think the ghost, if coordinating with the vampire, is itself the potential distraction/diversion for the vampire. I would also allow the PCs to realize the ghost is deliberately trying to focus their attention on it with some sort of opposed roll (in addition to any Stealth rolls required of the vampire).

If they do not perceive you as a threat I would let you gain surprise, but some sort of opposed roll would be necessary for them to fail to perceive you as a threat and I would probably give them some bonuses since they are about to run (or rather move see below) past someone on the periphery of active combat who while is apparently not involved is certainly holding a weapon. They are guards, not morons. Running past someone obviously holding a weapon who might turn out to be hostile is not a good way to get back to the barracks alive and intact and tends to lean towards a short career with a sudden violent ending.

If you gain surprise you could ready to brace against a charge. But I'd either warn you at that point that trained guardsmen are probably not going to continue to Run directly into a fight and would need a straight, unobstructed path to actually charge anyone in the interior. In other words the guardsmen are probably not going to be Running as they move past you and unless they can see someone in a direct, unobstructed path who is obviously in combat, charging isn't going to be occurring either. Even if they can see someone I don't think it is likely any guardsmen I'd be controlling as GM would simply charge the first individual in combat they can see without a very good reason ... more likely they'd enter while looking over the scene and demanding for everyone to cease and desist etc.. But that is obviously up to your GM not me.

Edit:And yes you can ready to brace against a charge.

CRB wrote:
Readying a Weapon against a Charge: You can ready weapons with the brace feature, setting them to receive charges. A readied weapon of this type deals double damage if you score a hit with it against a charging character.

437. As the party enters the local marketplace they hear, then see stalls bucked upwards by the earth as if something fairly large is burrowing beneath. The disruption stops and two metal pipes break the surface, one belching steam (or smoke), the other curved with an eye set at the end:

  • a) Shortly after stopping another larger pipe pushes up through the earth and a hatch at the top opens. Two gnomes clamber out looking about, then appear to argue over a map.
  • b) The eye on the end of the pipe glows, then a green ray shoots out and a stall turns to fine ash (gets Disintegrated). This continues each round as the marketplace explodes into utter chaos (and/or the PCs intervene). The war has started! News of similar attacks throughout the city soon reaches the PCs.
  • c) The eye detaches and flies off towards the keep, courthouse or other important structure as the two pipes withdraw into the ground.
  • d) After swiveling about briefly the eye fixes upon one of the stalls and a booming voice proclaims "Varian the Bleak you have been found guilty of violating the Code, you are under arrest. Please come along quietly".

A couple that immediately come to mind I don't see mentioned above.

Floating Disc - haul loads around.
Grease - Make it easier to move heavy objects by using on surfaces beneath them. Possibly also to grease the object being moved if one can get around the issue of handling the greased object. Note lack of size/weight limit on the target object.

Note that the Scry spell vs the Divination (Scrying) school(subschool) can not be used to view a location only a creature so the caster would need a target he knows (hopes or believes) is within the area he wishes to travel to. Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, however, will view a known or familiar location provided is on the same plane of existence.

One of the easiest mundane ways to defeat Teleportation magic is to fill the area with objects (tables, chairs and other furniture; hanging chains; statuary etc.) so no open surface exists to teleport onto. How much rearranging of the furniture or how much 'open' space is required tends to fall into GM providence but the same requirement that exists for summoning creatures exists for teleportation.

Or you could do what my group once did upon having to deal with a Tarrasque which was to not kill it. Managed to zap it into a Mirror of Life Trapping (the one we accidentally freed it from, oops!, in the first place) then proceeded to drop it from high altitude over our not so favorite evil city thereby releasing all the occupants.

He or a friend has Spell Immunity (for Dimensional Anchor).

tonyz is correct, wading through the water, sludge or whatever goo is under foot is not something a 15th lvl party is going to do in all likely hood if they wish to avoid it. But your more familiar with the individual characters response. The variety of terrain ('dry', partially submerged, or underwater) will, however, make it more interesting, validate their choice and make any change in terrain less likely to draw suspicion. And you can always work to make flying near the ceiling also undesirable.

Note the interaction between Plant Growth and Entangle if you haven't already (i.e. the DC on Entangle goes up by 4).

Agree with kestral make liberal use of Dominate and Charm. Unless they start taking precautions every movement they make, who they interact with, talk to, buy stuff from, etc. should risk getting reported by folks the dragon has enchanted (especially as time goes by). Perhaps the one of the first challenges they (your PCs) need to overcome is uncovering, then evading (and maybe dismantling - gently even since many, not all, of the 'spies' are potentially unwilling and innocent) the dragon's elaborate spy network. Something I feel the dragon is sure to be working on having in any nearby inhabited areas where bothersome adventurer types and hostile nobles/armies might reside.

Often there is only one entrance to 'the lair' (or one true and a few heavily trapped false). Consider throwing that out the design window and make many entrances, something more along the lines of an anthill. Party comes in through "A" and the dragon once alerted exits "B" (or C,D,E, ... or Z) and comes in from behind the party. Instead of temple it's a temple complex. Minions upon minions every where once the 'anthill' is disturbed.

First thought that popped into my head was the fight(s) did not need to be underwater to increase the challenge. Knee and or waist deep will make movement vastly more difficult at least for creature up to a certain size (depending on how deep you make it). Having the party slogging around in knee+ deep water will slow them down, a Huge+ creature not so much.

Not sure if you've overlooked or forgotten this from reading the above, bolding mine: Water Breathing (Ex) A green dragon can breathe underwater indefinitely and can freely use its breath weapon, spells, and other abilities while submerged.

Seems to me it already effectively has Freedom of Movement.

If the party is not submerged but is in an area where it's movement is hampered by the water depth consider using the tail slap/crush ability in an unexpected way > to create a large wave which hits the party like a mass bull rush attempt by the dragon (followed by the minions rushing in, Entangle etc.). Damage might be reduced or eliminated depending on how you treat the attempt (or how much debris is in the water).

Give it a slightly younger visitor, a black dragon of appropriate age perhaps even making the players wonder if they (or their sources) got the color correct {deep dark green in poor light vs black with an oily sheen for example}. Now it's both a dragon battle and not a single creature encounter.

Can't recall if I've ever seen an "aquatic kobold" before. Maybe have some fun there :)

Let them go for it. Maybe they will surprise you and won't get curb stomped by everything. With smart experienced players I suspect this is quite possible. Maybe some feats will be that much more difficult to get but conversely some will probably become more desirable. Player creativity and clever thinking will make up for an awful lot of "not even an NPC quality stat array"

Consider adding in more Tomes (etc.) with the lower bonuses if things seem to be too tough. Drop an item or two using rarer bonuses to buff them more if needed (i.e. luck and/or insight come to mind) even to the point of considering those items as if they were inherent bonuses. That is they are permanent, perhaps with lesser maximums (say +3) that can not be disjoined/suppressed by antimagic areas or the like.

Maybe instead of doing what is often recommended for high powered parties vs the AP do the opposite when creating encounters/creatures. Smaller numbers and or reduce the average hit points instead of maximizing them or adding more minions. Again only if it seems they are in fact having trouble with the difficulty otherwise don't fix or worry about what isn't broken unless the fun factor has gone bye bye.

In short if the problem crops up then deal with it. Otherwise don't spend too much time worrying over what if.


No and Oh heck no.

20th level commoner is still 20th level

UMD doesn't scale with level very well if at all.

Buffs can and will patch up an awful lot of holes.

Dying at 20th level will happen rapidly, often with out much regard for things like hit points. Those commoner hp are about the equal of a wizards in any case. Death can be undone about as rapidly and easily as the dying part as well.

Things like system mastery and intelligent play have zero to do with the character(s) and everything to do with the player(s).

Is he more likely to die than the others, I'd say that depends as much if not more on the player than the character and how much the players work together as a team.

KenderKin wrote:
Who has zero ranged weapons?

They did (have ranged ability), topic covered upthread.

The Daemon, however, is also a good ranged damage dealer and forcing it down and into combat would have been a better tactical choice (if accomplished, the point of this thread) than trying to out-range it on a battlefield of its choice. Better in this case than might normally be said of many flying attackers.

But, but, but ... What if it was an Ettin?

No it wouldn't fall but I'm thinking your chance to successfully grapple it plus the fact it can no longer use its Greater Teleport make this a solid plan to attempt. Question becomes how good is the Daze DC vs Daemon's Will save?

Edit: And the not so insignificant fact that 5th to 6th level casters would need someway to use Dazing spell metamagic for a spell slot they actually have.

And, of course, all this talk of Grappling assumes the groups CMB can with some reliability overcome the Daemon's CMD of 35. Truestrike would both add to the CMB and negate any ongoing concealment.

Grappling is probably a losing proposition it can Greater Teleport at will.

Tanglefoot is also probably not going to work either. It needs to roll 2+ to make a DC 15 reflex.

The concealment is RAW provided it used Hover (the Monster Feat vs just hovering) within 20ft of ground covered with loose debris. So it probably wanted to remain within 20 of that terrain. Eliminating or moving from the area would probably have been a good idea.

Bestiary, Monster Feats, Hover:

This creature can hover in place with ease and can kick up clouds of dust and debris.

Prerequisite: Fly speed.

Benefit: A creature with this feat can halt its movement while flying, allowing it to hover without needing to make a Fly skill check.

If a creature of size Large or larger with this feat hovers within 20 feet of the ground in an area with lots of loose debris, the draft from its wings creates a hemispherical cloud with a radius of 60 feet. The winds generated can snuff torches, small campfires, exposed lanterns, and other small, open flames of non-magical origin. Clear vision within the cloud is limited to 10 feet. Creatures have concealment at 15 to 20 feet (20% miss chance). At 25 feet or more, creatures have total concealment (50% miss chance, and opponents cannot use sight to locate the creature).

Normal: Without this feat, a creature must make a Fly skill check to hover and the creature does not create a cloud of debris while hovering.

Was the creature ignoring the concealment? I see nothing in its description that indicates the Leukodaemon would be able to see through it any better than you. Or was the GM giving it concealment from some other source, perhaps in error? This use of Hover (for concealment) and the lingering cloud from Breath of Flies I would say are incompatible as well (the winds would disperse the cloud).

Sounds like the best idea would be to relocate the battle to another area and or take cover to force it down into melee.

BAB = Base Attack Bonus

CRB, Getting Started, Common Terms wrote:
Base Attack Bonus (BAB): Each creature has a base attack bonus and it represents its skill in combat. As a character gains levels or Hit Dice, his base attack bonus improves. When a creature's base attack bonus reaches +6, +11, or +16, he receives an additional attack in combat when he takes a full-attack action (which is one type of full-round action—see Combat).

PS: Slayer is a "full BAB class"

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And while it's probably late/not enough time left for the OP -> Read as many high level modules/AP's as you can get your hands on. More than a few of them (especially the earlier ones from late AD&D and 3.0) have sections specifically with advice on how to challenge high level characters. Though as mentioned above it's often not so much about the creatures/CR as world and campaign it does include advice on some of the high level spells including various often problematic divination sorts as well as dealing with the ability of high level characters to go from A to B between the first course of a meal and dessert plus other issues.

And a couple links to go with the above links:

Having some issues with it not directing the link properly (It keeps going to a Paizo page ??) ...

Caveat and related to Wraithstrike's post: High level characters built from scratch will often be very different and may have some glaring holes when compared to characters built and then played from low levels upwards. The likelyhood that even an experienced player will overlook 'something' while spending that 880,000 gp is substantial particularly if they aren't used to high level play.

And a last note (as much for clarity as the OP) Mythic and Epic are totally different systems for handling such characters.

Couple more thoughts. I'm not sure he can actually run out of cantrips. Once he has decided which to prepare they are there until he actually decides to prepare different ones (or the ones he has are somehow wiped by other magic etc.) Hopefully he has at least one memorized that is offensive in nature for combat purposes.

If he has an arcane bond item (and currently has it in his possession or gets to it) then he also gets one of the spells in his spellbook each day to cast even if not prepared. He better make that one count if that is the case.

My wizard(s) have never felt useless. Even when disarmed and/or captured. Reality may or may not have agreed :p

A high level wizard as has been pointed out has far more options, things like Spell Mastery, SLA's, etc., than a lower level wizard. However, while it most certainly hurts overall it hurts less when low level than high. Forcing a 15th level wizard into capture/imprisonment is a far greater drop in relative power than it is for a 5th level wizard generally speaking.

One possible solution - Allow the wizard to use his spellbook as if the spells in it were scrolls. Normally I'd say same for any other spellbooks he were to find but the time constraints prevent deciphering the writing first but perhaps after the escape if there is a pursuit going on the needed time might become available.

Find a Pearl of Power or two. Maybe even flawed ones which only work a few times before cracking and becoming pretty gravel. Or maybe the real owner shows up later during the escape and for some story reason the wizard feels obligated to return them (or returns them for some reward or or or ...).

As Rambear points out if you wrote the corner you put yourself in you can probably write finding the backdoor out as well.

Lastly a point towards letting the wizard (magus and party) deal with it. If you've been their GM for a while then hopefully that trust (in both directions) is there as well which should lead a decent player to go with ... "my wizard is never useless" and take it as the interesting challenge the situation can be and go looking for the solutions you have put before them (and probably find some you haven't even thought of on top of it).

kestral287 wrote:

Simplest option-- make it bring itself down.

Presumably this flyer is trying to be a threat, and that means some form of ranged attack. Even a simple Obscuring Mist prevents that, and is available from first level. Doesn't help against big enough AoEs, but it stops targeted attacks well. Higher level spells can be more efficient-- a Wall of Force, aligned horizontally over your head, will stop AoEs just fine.

If it is using melee attacks, a simple "I ready my action to attack it/grapple it" will either do some damage or bring it down, depending on how confident you are in your CMB.

Magical flight is dispellable if it's coming off an actual spell. Antimagic Field can stop even Su flight but that has its own problems.

And of course, moving out of the open works fine if that's an option.

Personally rather than placing a Wall of Force over myself for cover and provided the flyer comes within range place the invisible Wall directly in the creatures flight path. Ouch that's going to leave a mark!

Milo v3 wrote:

The item creation rules are the same for combat items and non-combat items. The price doesn't depend on setting, it depends on how you make the item. If it is a constant effect for example, it'll be more expensive than a mug that can once a day make a drink alcoholic.

As for ideas, I've started writing down a few myself here.

Yes for best comparisons between items the "price" needs to be set via the creation rules in a standardized fashion. That said the magic item creation rules are some of the best rules in the game to keep in mind that they are guidelines only first and foremost and the creation of new items is definitely an art as much as science.

I'd start by looking within the Magic Item Creation rules. Much of what you seem to be aiming for are probably going to end up being Wondrous Items using spells with non-combat use as their basis. Unfortunately much like doing so for combat items they fall squarely into the realm of what the GM allows or in this case can 'invent' for the campaign.

I'd also use caution when pricing skill bonuses. All skill bonuses are not created equal, at least in my opinion. Would make me, at least, uneasy to set a precedent where for 90,000 gp someone could access a +30 bonus to UMD, for example (half that if crafted).

It's the GM's call as to what is ineffective (and just how ineffective even it might be). I personally don't buy that a bludgeoning weapon will in fact do no damage to a standard hemp rope for instance ... particularly if the rope is getting hammered between the stone pier it is anchored to and SMASH the Raging barbarian's Great Maul. I will grant his Great Axe will make much, much quicker work of it, but it isn't going to take minutes to pancake the rope either (though you might end up with stone pier rubble and a squashed rope).

Bottom line expect table variation.

Love Searing Light ... there's almost nothing, creature-wise it won't have some effect on (if, for example, you are up against something very unfamiliar whose resistances and immunities are unknown).

Doomed Hero's idea about holy water could also be used similarly with a large container full of holy water and Shrink Item.

And Consecrate deserves mention, a -1 penalty to undead, no vampire spawn can be created should the unfortunate happen to a party member and several other effects.

Just a Guess wrote:

As a slight derail:

Does glitterdust work vs. ethereal creatures? Ethereal states that the creature is invisible, glitterdust counters invisibility. So would glitterdust make an ethereal creature visible?

Ethereal text:
Ethereal wrote:

An ethereal creature is invisible, insubstantial, and capable of moving in any direction, even up or down, albeit at half normal speed. An ethereal creature can move through solid objects, including living creatures. An ethereal creature can see and hear on the Material Plane, but everything looks gray and ephemeral. Sight and hearing onto the Material Plane are limited to 60 feet.

Force effects and abjurations affect an ethereal creature normally. Their effects extend onto the Ethereal Plane from the Material Plane, but not vice versa. An ethereal creature can't attack material creatures, and spells you cast while ethereal affect only other ethereal things. Certain material creatures or objects have attacks or effects that work on the Ethereal Plane.

An ethereal creature treats other ethereal creatures and ethereal objects as if they were material.

Or is the part about force effects and abjuration effects exclusive, saying that other effects to not work, making the creature immune to glitterdust, which is a conjuration/creation effect.

Not so much immune as simply not there. Ethereal creatures are on a different plane of existence and only force effects and abjuration spells have effects which extend across the boundary between the material and ethereal planes and onto the ethereal plane. If your ethereal creature left the ethereal plane and entered the material plane it would be effected per usual by the spell near as I'm aware.


When the player asks how far across tells them the DC is 12 because ...

1) You don't have the aforementioned surveying/laser tools to know whether the pit is 9.8 ft, 10.2ft or even 11.6 feet

2) Maybe depending on exactly where you cross the orc crafted pit (vs a dwarven one :p) it is all the above distances (potentially) to cross it, fine? craftsmanship notwithstanding.

3) Because maybe it's just easier to set the DC and the pit just miraculously is whatever distance across is required by ones interpretation of the rules to create that DC.

4)Because, wow 19 pages of thread and going.

That's why my wizard usually memorized both See Invisibility and Glitterdust.

Once I saw an invisible threat I had the option to 'light up' the target for the rest of the party.

And what point remains to the Stealth check penalty if you continue to apply concealment?

My Loremaster once used Disintegrate on NPC Fighter foe, he failed the save ... then our Rogue used a Rod of Wonder and rolled in the 16-20 category.

16-20 result:
Gust of Wind at windstorm force

We all about died laughing at the result.

My vote is for something odd like Repulsion or Telekinesis (for the Pin)

Embarrassment, not death, is my first choice with a normally intelligent player making an idiotic move as a character.

And Banishment is on the table as the the characters are extraplanar targets while on the demiplane.

For wizards using the Core rules, traveling between the planes seems to be pretty easy. Once you hit 9th level, you can basically come and go. That ease of access for traveling wizards seems like it will be the defining feature of this sort of game, and I'm not sure I'm happy with that fact, especially considering how easily they can take people with them.

Totally different direction but why does it bother you (and apparently others as well)? So what if a caster/wizard/adventurer can travel rapidly between point A and point B? Seems like complaining that I could use a private jet to travel between Charleston SC and New York NY rather than a car, train, bus or jet ski.

If it really does put a crimp in your fun the easiest and probably least disruptive solution is make the Fork cost more than 1gp followed by requiring the caster needing to learn what Fork goes to where. It doesn't even have to be all forks. Maybe some of them are common and cheap (and found inside component pouches) while others are made of platinum and iridium alloys and not so common or cheap (and hence not found inside component pouches) It's your game and RAW says you get to call the shots including deciding what exactly RAW is for your game.

Chess Pwn wrote:
find the path spell handles finding any location

Of course.

And advice on how to handle Find the Path are numerous within these threads starting with read the spell and recognize its limitations as well (duration, prominence, direct physical but not necessarily safest path etc.).

Point being it isn't just cast Plane Shift and "yeah we're here at Ak'Bar's citadel!" particularly the first time the caster heads that way and especially at the levels when a caster can first start using Plane Shift unless that's what the GM wants to have happen. How many castings of Find the Path do you think might be involved in a 300 mile overland trek (i.e. a 9 maybe 10+ days long trip)? What if the Path (i.e. direction) changes each time the caster uses the spell ... some of the Outer Planes can be highly morphic for instance. "I'm sorry my companions but the last 3 days we seem? to have somehow been heading the wrong way despite the spell ... errrm let me consult my lorebooks"

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