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Kayerloth's page

Pathfinder Society Member. 990 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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Ones I carried on my post 20th Loremaster (a 3.5 character) were:

Permanency - Arcane Sight, See Invisibility, Darkvision
Telepathic Bond (permanent with one other individual) also via Permanency
Greater Magic Weapon (available)
Detect Scrying
Mages Private Sanctum (available) +/- Secure Shelter
(or Mages Magnificent Mansion)
Prying Eyes (or Greater Prying Eyes)
Overland Flight
Contingency (typically linked to Teleport/command word to a 'safe' location upon being triggered), later Elminster's Evasion
Mind Blank
Moment of Prescience

Depending on circumstances:
(Extended) Protection from "Energy" or Resist "Energy" +/- 'Mass' version (of whatever I expected to go up against)
(Extended) Stoneskin
False Vision and/or Screen
Instant Summons
Dimensional Lock
(Extended) Foresight
(Extended) Prismatic Sphere

Rarely: Protection from Spells, Status (via Limited Wish)

Seeking would be high on my list also. While certainly not the "best" I had Distance on my primary bow which complimented my feat Far Shot nicely and led to a the occasional GM's eyebrows going up (in Living City play) when he lit up a few targets at some relatively extreme ranges (ship to ship or ship to shore combat situations usually).

I guess I'd make it the 7th vote for "depends/varies". The last portal I recall running was a fairly innocent looking archway of stone with some 'arcane' runes on the Prime Material side. The other side was more or less the same only it was well below the thick bog mat over the dark, murky and demon infested lake waters of one of Demogorgon's layers within the Abyss. It was also a one-way trip if you didn't have the proper key/permission for its use to exit back out to the Prime.

Magda Luckbender wrote:
Rosc wrote:

Because melee players absolutely love charging in as soon as they can for those delicious Claw Claw Bite sandwiches. At least at my tables.

This morning I played in a level 7-11 PFS scenario with a tactical trap for stupid. <snipped> Our group sure wasn't fooled, but I'm sure many would be.

:D In a similar ambush layout my Mystic Theurge promptly cast Sanctuary and then rushed the "trap". A whole lot of AoO's followed by missed Will saves later our real melee types moved in free of AoOs and demolished the foes.

Now if that partridge had been there ...

Cyrus Lanthier wrote:
Well, I don't think you can quick draw a sword that's stowed (mostly) in your backpack, either.

I would quite agree

Cyrus Lanthier wrote:
The butter knife scenario seems to imply that your answer is "Improvised Weapons are Weapons." Though drawing a hidden weapon is in fact slower (still a move action with quick draw) I assume that what you mean is that you would draw it as a move as opposed to a standard, meaning that quick draw would be "working."

Yes I would in general agree that an Improvised Weapon is a weapon ... improvised is an adjective, just like martial or two handed and doesn't in itself preclude it from being an object normally intended to sit on called a chair, for example. To be honest I'd forgotten that drawing a hidden butter knife from up ones sleeve would normally be slow enough from the norm to be consider a standard vs move, but yes I would probably allow someone with Quickdraw to speed up drawing a butter knife (which while improvised is a lot more akin to an weapon than the chair is to a Great Club)

Bottom line is I don't think there is one specific covers it all answer for the question, "Can I Quickdraw an improvised weapon?" as it is entirely too dependent on what exactly is being drawn.

There is also Protective Penumbra, a second level cleric, sor/wiz and witch spell.

Hopefully it's a big sturdy tree the wizard can't easily destroy and good for hiding behind (total cover). Maybe you can use total cover/cover to draw the wizard close enough to grapple then pull him back into the shade. Is this tree by the way the only tree within running distance (sounds if yes it is)? If it isn't the lone tree running like crazy might be a good start.

With the perfect 20-20 hindsight of an outside observer the first thing I'd note was if death was going to be a major story issue the time to fudge things was when the crit landed/before death was dealt ... for me you strongly risk cheapening death/bad stuff happening if you have to handwave stuff to bring the same character back to life. (And I'd want to keep any such fudging secretly behind my screen and unknown to my players)

But once its happened its happened and I'd be more liable to use something along the lines of RumpusRufus suggests, a previously unknown primitive humanoid race living on the island or even just a lone survivor from a previous shipwreck to allow the player to participate in the next session because a forced sitting out sucks and then some as a player.

Any clue what is up with the wizard? Is it a 'player' issue involving PvP or is he being dominated or otherwise controlled? And what is the other non-vampire character up to?

Otherwise as Claxon said you are in the crick without any paddles in a boat with numerous holes.

My answer as a GM would be, "It varies", followed by "What are you trying to draw?"

The chair or barstool you are sitting on is already 'drawn'.

The butter knife you palmed and slipped up your sleeve earlier I'd probably let you.

The shovel stuck in your backpack with the end of the handle sticking out (and on your back) probably not.

Various random thoughts:

Seeming and/or Veil could be used by the kidnappers to aid in avoiding being spotted while tailing the party.

If he or his party has a mount(s) give the kidnappers access to a Cauchemar Nightmare (CR 11). Use Veil to disguise the Nightmare as his mount then give him the ride of his life.

Use Nondetection as needed to ward against things like Detect spells, See Invisibility etc.

Mirror Hideaway and/or Mirror Transport could be a lot of fun to use in a smash and grab attempt.

And then there is Discern Location (cleric 8, sorcerer/wizard 8).

Sissyl wrote:
Flurry of antennae... with bonus feats for extra reach... mmmmm....

Hehe, for those veteran "know all the monster" types a variant with Roper like antennae that rust as normal rather than drain strength.

boring7 wrote:
Destruktokon am Half-orc Barbarian, son of chief and witch. Destruktokon demand entry to fizzy wizard home. Destruktokon make intimidate check, roll 12 plus mod and door open by itself out of fear. Door smarter than fizzy wizard.

last time my party faced a magical talking door:
The party's sorcerer, Seamus, had the habit upon meeting someone for the first time of asking them if they like his hat ... his hat being a rather obnoxious tall pointy thing covered in gaudy near worthless baubles. Say anything negative and he had the tendency to go blaster mode on whoever declined to tell him the hat was a work of art, glorious, etc.. So we are in the Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil and facing a magical talking door to continue. Seamus asks, "How do you like my hat?" The Door is tactlessly truthful. Seconds later the Door is dust after Seamus lets loose with a Disintegrate, hits the Door, beats its SR, and the Door fails its Fort save. Seamus had a lot of "barbarian" smash in him :D

As others have indicated it merely negates any miss chance due to concealment and grants +20 To Hit. On the flip side it also means Moment of Prescience doesn't mean an automatic miss if used as an insight bonus to AC nor do you have any questions about what happens if a caster uses Moment of Prescience against a True Strike buffed attack.

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402. Approaching the town gate the PC's spot a huge tree, limbs waving, growling at several hostile appearing guardsmen, "I will not budge!". At which point it seems to take root preventing any hope of closing the gates with nightfall approaching.

403. The party hears about glowing moss seen near the river market. Investigation finds patches of the moss, which grows only in the underdark, left behind by when travelers from the underdark passed through leaving an unintentional trail of spores.

404. The town gates are closed and the walls are heavily manned compared to the norm. A plague flag flies above the battlements, while burial details work nearby at a mass grave.

405. As the PC's pass through an unsavory part of town at night they hear a beautiful voice singing in a tongue they do not recognize. Unable to track down the source, making inquiries they find no one has ever found the source. The language is a very ancient elvish no longer spoken. Sung nightly by a Banshee she only fully manifests on a single night each year and is only deadly on that night.

Cayzle wrote:

Slightly off topic, but this reminds me of back in First Edition days, when my chemical-engineer-major friend had the firm belief that the Ethereal Plane was actually filled with ether, you know, diethyl ether, the flammable chemical.

He lived in deadly fear of setting the entire plane on fire.

Slaps engineer, lack of any Oxygen since the plane is full of Ether makes combustion impossible (unless this non-engineer is overlooking something of course :p)

Now Phligoston on the other hand ...

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

On a related note isnt there a spell that creates an area of magic where you're enhanced and others are harmed? I cant think of the name.

Perhaps a carefully worded wish would accomplish the "I can cast and you can't" goal of the demiplane creator.

While not exactly what you are looking for a clever use of Impeded and Enhanced magic and combine that with alignment traits could definitely give a 'home court advantage' to the creator.

Now add in things like Hallow/Unhallow with a linked spell, Forbiddance, Permanency and Greater Spell Immunity to further tilt the playing field.

Generally you can evade only if you are not helpless, or not in medium or heavier armor. It must also be an attack which allows a Reflex save for half damage.

CRB Glossary wrote:
A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy.

Note that one is 'helpless' if unconscious or bound and therefore it is not relevant whether you actually get a Reflex save for the purpose of Evasion.

Sufficient ability damage or drain can render a target helpless.

I believe Pinned also renders you unable to use Evasion as one may only take verbal or mental actions as well as being described as tightly bound.

Note that if this is a Dragon it is normally immune to both magical sleep and paralysis effects.

Still among my favorite escape from certain death misadventures.

My MT and her two companions found themselves on the verge of a TPK. They had been ambushed by a Roper who promptly grabbed, grappled and severely reduced their strength. Then she used Gaseous Form combined with the fact she possessed Eschew, Silent and Still to yoink victory from a much surprised Roper.

I'm just having fun imagining the Wizard's feline familiar with Handle Animal train the Ranger's wolf to fetch some fresh salmon and wake everyone in the morning for breakfast.

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My thoughts in no particular order.

1) Yes a character might attempt to intercept the bead of a Fireball as a Readied Action.

2) If they do intercept the bead it is going to take a lot of convincing for me to allow any sort of save vs the damage (i.e. perhaps using a Reach weapon from behind a lot of solid cover, for example).

3) My default assumption is any pea-sized ('smaller' than fine sized? object) bead described as "streaks from pointed digit" is a) moving in a relatively straight line between caster and target -> the point of origin and b) is also moving very fast (potentially upwards of 2400 feet in under 6 seconds - you do the math). I'm thinking in the neighborhood of AC=10+8(size)+N. Haven't quite decided what N might be, probably a bit more for hitting a pea-sized object moving very rapidly.

I also agree with LuxuriantOak's thought that anything made up on the spot is going to be more thought out if the party seems inclined to make a habit of this sort of thing as well as Rynjin's last post reflecting on the difference between allowing player creativity and setting precedents (and this one having the potential to set a precedent I'm not so sure I want set). It's a very small step between this and intercepting launched arrows and bullets which currently involves the use of feat(s).

Edit: And those feats specifically do not allow a spell to be deflected or snatched (or natural attacks for that matter)

tonyz wrote:

As a GM, I'd probably rule that just studying the lich's possessions doesn't make you "familiar" with te lch -- that's something that requires long-term interaction. The body part watching would work, though.

Also, the lich isn't "there" until it finishes reforming. So you'd have a window between the time it finished reforming and the time it cast its anti-scrying spells -- assuming its phylactery wasn't in, say, a lead-lined vault in a graveyard or something. Admittedly, not all liches are that paranoid, but there are countermeasures to a lot of divination magic, which is why you might need to pull out the big guns.

And be really really glad it's not even higher level than 14th and using something like Sequester on its phylactery.

Personally I think the group needs to have a long OOC conversation about the situation because unless the group/GM is prepared for deadly intra-character conflict this is all too likely to end badly.

PS: Why the discussion about nonlethal damage?? Am I missing something ... a Lich is normally immune to nonlethal damage.

To be clear Keen, the weapon property, is not useable on a Bow. Keen Edge, the spell, works on projectiles (such as arrows) which deal piercing or slashing damage.

Indeed if a Sunburst spell goes off in the vicinity of a vampire it is going to be painful even if the vampire has Protective Penumbra spell running.

The way I see it and understand it:

The vampire will take 50% additional damage (if facing a 20th level caster 20d6 plus 50% of the value of that roll). It's not an energy type but the vampire is protected from penalties caused by the vulnerability so no -4 on the Reflex save. Whether you are destroyed if you fail the save depends on your GM (and/or if there is a FAQ or clarification out there). A more literal interpretation says you won't suffer the -4 penalty to the Reflex save but would be destroyed based off this part of the text -> "Some creatures might suffer additional effects, as noted in their descriptions." Being destroyed is not a penalty as it is not a 'numerical value' -> Penalty: Penalties are numerical values that are subtracted from a check or statistical score. Check with your GM as your unlife literally might depend on it. In any case the Protective Penumbra gets dispelled.

Of course, as Cyrus eludes to, if you are standing outside during daylight when the Sunburst hits you are in deep doo anyway (have your Contingency cast). Of course one way to make this less an issue is to Heighten your Protective Penumbra to 9th (that will cancel out an awful lot of light spells with text along the lines similar to that of Sunburst, 'dispels any darkness spells of lower than 9th level within its area'. A friendly divine caster with access to Greater Spell Immunity can also be of great value in protecting you from the few highly dangerous 'light' spells out there (or a high UMD and the right item/scroll). There are 3 I'm aware of and would take care to protect myself from are: Sunburst (8th Wiz, Drd), Sunbeam(7th Drd) and Searing Light(3rd Clr). Both Sunbeam and Sunburst are capable of outright destroying undead with weakness to sunlight.

I wouldn't. The Croc is using a Trip attack. It only risks becoming prone if it fails its Trip attack by 10 or more. But, I'd also be loath to ever call a Crocodile (or Alligator for that matter) as 'prone'. I mean how would a prone croc look (or be any less dangerous) than one which was 'not prone' though that is perhaps what you are aiming at with the RAW vs RAI statement. That said I do think, however, one might trip a Croc ... flipping it on its back in the process and exposing the soft underbelly and give any attackers some advantage which might be roughly equivalent to being prone. But prone specifically no.

But that's largely opinion (and on the spot homebrew) not RAW.

Maybe I'm well outside the norm but while I have seen fast over near instantly combats (under 4 rounds) I can't say that has ever been normal for me while on either side of the screen.

So my advice is somewhat serious ... better set up and designed encounters, run more proficiently. Or maybe we are counting the rounds differently or something?

Thanis Kartaleon has given you an excellent listing.

Move Earth perhaps to uncover the wagons. Depending on schools, specialties etc. Limited Wish might be used to duplicate the effects of Move Earth.

How large an area is involved?

As Tarantula has stated magic can seriously mess with traps in general.

What level are the PCs dealing with this trap? Is there a trapfinder in the group (and or someone with Disable Device) and how much magic does the group possess? What CR are you looking to achieve?

Ravingdork wrote:
Decanters of endless water only costs 1,125gp to craft when you use downtime magic capital with the Focused Overseer feat. Just craft a bunch of them and sell your infinite water for whatever price people will pay you for it.

I've got this overwhelming urge to tell you not to flood the market ...

Sorry :p

One niche spell that I find nice to have available (via scroll or other item) if not memorized is Sunburst. Huge AoE (as in 80ft rad. huge) that is a non-elemental damage and particularly nasty to undead, fungi, mold, oozes, and slimes (with other fine print in the text such as dispelling any 8th level or lower darkness spells).

I'd make note of any non-Wiz/Sor spells that I might want to use in conjunction with Limited Wish -> Raise Dead, Freedom of Movement, Blessing of Fervor(don't forget those bullet point uses that Haste won't grant), Spell Immunity, and probably a bazillion more depending on play and campaign style etc..

And while it may mean picking the occasional 'poor' choice of spell you may wish to consider choosing a wider selection of spells. In other words rather than 4 different spells each memorized twice at 6th level, choose 8 different spells and look for ways to use all 8 even that 'poor' choice. Part of playing a high level Wizard well is spell mastery, knowing all those spells and what they can do for you (particularly within a given campaign and GM). As I said might make for an occasional painful selection but it will stretch your personal knowledge quickly and make the act of selection for your Wizard and the peculiarities of your campaign/play style easier and easier.

The only place I think you are likely to find anything resembling such guidelines would be in the 3.0/3.5 Epic rules (or PF conversions of such) or in similarly veined 3PP meant for PF ... and only if you treat an artifact as an epic item with the inability to 'create' it via mortal means, i.e. feats epic or otherwise.

The only comments I might add is go ahead a run with it some, especially if this is your campaign and not bound by PFS. And one possible way to handle the single roll decides all 'problem' would be to have the player make the single roll and apply everything but the perception based mods and just add details to what you reveal as the perception mods beat the needed DC by increasing amounts if you follow me.

LazarX wrote:
Kayerloth wrote:

No need for magic.

There are a large variety of desalinization processes that could be used. I'm no expert (or engineer) but one of the simplest methods is likely via solar 'power'. Basically evaporate the water off (from your salt water supply - something the sun does naturally), then condense and collect the water. The hard part according to the Wikipedia article I read is probably getting the solar energy concentrated on a small area to cause the natural process to speed up sufficiently for any large scale use.

Short read: Look into Desalinization on the Web.

You'll notice that there aren't any record of any pre tech societies who've managed that. the major problem is that while desalination sounds nice, it's extremely engineering intensive to get it to scale beyond beaker stage.

Good point, though the knowledge is also probably lacking in those pre-tech societies and probably also be lacking in most imagined medieval fantasy settings so there is that as well.

Maybe instead a Permanent Wall of Fire (heat source) plus tubing and make a distillery.

Or just go back and use teams of 'create water' or 'create food and water'. Water from the later appears permanent (doesn't vanish after 24 hours).

No need for magic.

There are a large variety of desalinization processes that could be used. I'm no expert (or engineer) but one of the simplest methods is likely via solar 'power'. Basically evaporate the water off (from your salt water supply - something the sun does naturally), then condense and collect the water. The hard part according to the Wikipedia article I read is probably getting the solar energy concentrated on a small area to cause the natural process to speed up sufficiently for any large scale use.

Short read: Look into Desalinization on the Web.

Lots of solid advice above.

To Paulicus' excellent list of spells I'd add Limited Wish doubly so if the party you find yourself in is light on divine spells or casters.

The high(est) level direct damage I tended to use were Polar Ray and Meteor Swarm. Both are touch attacks and in my case I could change the damage type as well. Plus things like Rime and Dazing metamagic didn't yet exist for me which could be added for more debilitation (and control to a 'blaster' wizard).

While the points against direct damage blastiness are worth noting ... I like my cake and eating it too and not much will clear out the mooks so the Hasted, Greater Heroism (etc.) buffed Paladin and Barbarian can get at the BBEG like a well placed blast with some control metamagic tacked onto it.

Waves of Exhaustion plus Calcific Touch (or Polar Ray) can really demolish a targets Dexterity score in a hurry. The drawback to Waves of Exhaustion is that it must be a living target (and to Calcific Touch is its Range: Touch)

I totally agree with Paulicus' comments on Foresight. Depending on the GM the spell ranges from near worthless to potentially very powerful though a +2 insight bonus is nearly otherwise unobtainable for AC and Reflex saves. (And if you are up against a den of thieves and assassins the lack of surprise and flat-footed status might be life saving in itself :P)

It really depends on what set of rules you are going to be dealing with and that is going to be the GM's call (your call?).

PF doesn't, as Aleron has stated, have a set of "Epic" rules and has shied away from publishing any sticking to Mythic which while dealing with the power level takes a very different tack to the issue of 'beyond 20th' and really isn't a set of rules for beyond 20th as much as beyond 'normal' power levels. The brief bit in the CRB about 'Beyond 20th' really isn't useful at all to someone designing campaign material intended for what it sounds like you are aiming for i.e. CR 30+ but more aimed at the period right after 20th level and finishing out PC's pre 25th level (allowing them to have some fun with their capstone and 20th level abilities rather than "here are some nice capstone powers, too bad the campaign has ended")

Personally as someone who has both played and run 'Epic' material I'd have a look at this:

Pathfinder Epic Rules conversion

It uses the 3.0/3.5 Epic rules set and converts it to the Pathfinder rules set to level 30 in detail with guidelines for going as far as you want after that (much like the 3.0 Epic rules did). The only thing it doesn't cover is Monster creation or stats so you will need to create your own Epic Bestiary entries but does cover pretty much everything else you ask about above.

One note of warning, one thing about any Mounted combat specialist is they need room to operate and this is probably a hundred times true of archery based combat off a mount Mongol style (ride in, fire arrows, ride away without engaging in melee). So it might be good to check (if you haven't) about how this will work with whatever campaign you are joining so at the very least you have something your good at when inside a typical dungeon or inside the town walls, for example, if that will occur with any frequency.

Maybe I'm missing something but why is my mage killer not giggling at a Wizard who has used Emergency Force Field ... seems like he just took himself out of the fight? Okay I suppose he can buff himself or summon a couple creatures (inside the Sphere) but unless I'm doing it wrong (i.e. not RAW) he only has so much room inside the Sphere and no line of effect to cast anything outside the Sphere. And I can potentially be doing other things while keeping an eye on our self containing Wizard.

Charon's Little Helper wrote:
And with maxed out stealth combined with invisibility/dimension door - you think it's crazy for him to start next to the wizard? Or at least within 15 ft? (For dirty trick you only have to be in melee range - not next to them. All manuver monks based around dirty trick should hold a whip just to give dirty trick more range. :P

Yes it would work as described against most of my Wizards (or Wizards played by friends) but only if the underlying assumption is true. That underlying assumption seems to be "Wizard is caught alone". Most of my Wizards had what would amount to an awful Perception score (usually even after buffed to the gills vs any similarly buffed and Stealthy-type foe) but the underlying assumption was almost equally never true, there was almost always a very perceptive character around as well. For this to work you don't have to beat my perception you have to beat his. In general this tactic/character type will work better if used against an NPC/BBEG and not so much against a PC caster or group as PCs tend to be built to gain surprise and, as a group, avoid being surprised.

See Bob Bob Bob's post about all sorts of 'mages' that aren't the standard guy in robes ... and if that's all your mage killer is able to tackle (standard guy in robes) the character's focus might just be a bit too narrow for many campaigns.

Same sort of issue with anything "Scry and Fry" related. Never mind the Will save issue vs Scrying there's the issue of the sensor being detectable by anyone with a perception able to beat DC=20+Spell level of sensor. It also ignores the existence of Detect Scrying. I'd also consider it pretty easy GM'ing if the sensor isn't noticed before the Scryer had enough time to do anything remotely resembling studying the location for a Teleport type action ... in which case the target(s) are now aware of your 'interest' which is probably a bad thing.

While stealth may be relevant, Invisibility is again in my experience almost never a factor except for a small window of levels due to the presence of See Invisibility. (And again there's the issue of wizard being in the company of highly perceptive characters)

Also your stealthy mage killer best not be operating too far out on a limb and have a get away plan available (especially if this is a PC). Doesn't do a whole lot of good (on a personal basis) if you win initiative and take out said Wizard only to have his companions chew you to bits with their counterstrike. Then again I suppose this is always a risk when playing this sort of character concept/build and the ones getting to high levels will be the ones who's players have figured out just how far 'behind the lines' their character can operate and survive.

Might be as simple as a desire to keep the list relevant for the largest base of players, those whose groups can access only the Bestiary I.

On Pupsocket's list I'd note the Fifth Tier as also being very situational rather than strictly low-level. Or 'sucks to fall overboard' in a situation where you can't use magic (usually GM created).

Bacon666 wrote:

I would let the other chars make a heal skill check to spot that he's still alive.

At the same time I would warn my players that this is a 1 time boon... Next time a player forgets to write down hp, the char doesn't have them (1 time is an honest mistake... Recurring errors is not taking the game seriously...)


And for me that is assuming I had no reason to believe it was not an honest mistake.

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wraithstrike wrote:
There is no flat formula, and I would not change CR. What I do think you should do is be careful about the problems you give the players to solve, and be careful about which monsters you use. It is better if you keep the game at a low level unless you have other ways to compensate for lack of magic. Being permanently turned to stone by a medusa as an example might not go over well. IIRC you would need stone to flesh or break enchantment.

To take this a step further decide what the options for the PCs are for a "condition" before it happens, ideally before the game even starts. In turn this leads back to what Tacticslion is saying about needing to know more about the details. Is magic something only the NPCs control? Is magic exceedingly rare even for the NPCs (or truly unknown - and presumably waiting to be rediscovered ... or why use PF rules in the first place when plenty of sci-fi rules are out there)?

I don't think there is an easy answer to the OP question and certainly not a flat increase of 'x' amount for 'y' defense.

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Ability scores won't effect each other but sheesh that is going to be a much harder to slay Graveknight if his armor (containing his soul) has both its own mind and the ability to say Teleport or run away as well. Of course it also means his 'phylactery' may also get uncooperative if not happy with his Knight which might prove interesting to deal with if you are the Graveknight in question.

*Party enters dungeon and sees an ancient suit of Armor, which appears to be having one half of a loud argument, apparently with itself* :p (and oh gads why did my brain just start channeling R2D2's voice for the Armor)

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The ability scores the item have no direct effect on the wearer unless it specifically says so in the item description.

So no the Wisdom will not effect the wearer/bearer/possessor of the item. It will effect the item's Will save and any checks based on Wisdom. Same for Intelligence and Charisma. Just treat the item as if it is an NPC construct. As intelligent magic items they may have various skills and those skills will use the appropriate skill mods for those skills. The item can and certainly is likely to employ Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Bluff and or any other skills (powers and abilities) it may possess to try and meet its goals just like any intelligent NPC would do.

CRB, Intelligent Magic Items wrote:
Intelligent items can actually be considered creatures because they have Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. Treat them as constructs. Intelligent items often have the ability to illuminate their surroundings at will (as magic weapons do); many cannot see otherwise.

And keep in mind these rules (*cough* guidelines) are one area of the rules set that needs very heavy GM oversight to work without being extremely disruptive to a campaign. They can also be very fun when handled well. And rather obviously that is my opinion.

I'm thinking that no you wouldn't be able to but not sure if it works out RAW that way.

I'd say that RAI anyway (and probably what I'd do) is select a spell-like ability duplicating a spell with a level less than or equal to 1/2 its caster level (round down) – 6 (the combined effect of -2 and -4, as that is where the +2 and +4 level mods pop up for the metamagic effects).

Or you would need to be level 16 ... [1/2*(16)]-6=2

Which not unsurprisingly is about the caster level needed to actually cast a Quickened, Empowered 2nd level spell. A wizard of 12th level is actually only capable of using Quickened Empowered 0-level spells.

Jeraa wrote:
For what its worth, the 3.5 FAQ states that when a magic item duplicates a spell, it only lasts for the duration of the spell at a caster level equal to the ... <snip> ... The 1st edition DMG says rings spell-like abilities function as 12th level of magic use unless the power requires a higher level of magic use. And the Ring of Invisibility says it functions exactly as the spell (with the exception that some rings have an added effect). That would imply the duration as well.

Keep in mind that the Ring of Invisibility would have then be based off the duration of a 12th level Magic User of AD&D as well if so ruling ... duration at that time was a whole heck of a lot longer than the 12 minutes it currently would be for a 12 level Wizard. In between (then and now) I believe there is even a period where the stated duration was a flat 24 hours for Invisibility.

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How about explaining this then:


Cloak of Etherealness

Aura strong transmutation; CL 15th

Slot shoulders; Price 55,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.


This silvery gray cloak seems to absorb light rather than be illuminated by it. On command, the cloak makes its wearer ethereal (as the ethereal jaunt spell). The effect is dismissible. The cloak works for a total of up to 10 minutes per day. This duration need not be continuous, but it must be used in 1 minute increments.


Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, ethereal jaunt; Cost 27,500 gp

Why bother with "(as the ethereal jaunt spell)" if you are going to go on and specify exactly how long and how continuous or not the activation is? Couldn't you just leave that chunk out of sentence?

with text missing:
Cloak of Etherealness

Aura strong transmutation; CL 15th

Slot shoulders; Price 55,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.


This silvery gray cloak seems to absorb light rather than be illuminated by it. On command, the cloak makes its wearer ethereal. The effect is dismissible. The cloak works for a total of up to 10 minutes per day. This duration need not be continuous, but it must be used in 1 minute increments.


Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, ethereal jaunt; Cost 27,500 gp

Personally I've always viewed it as you turn invisible as long as you wear the Ring. Ditto for Hat of Disguise. No idea if I hold that belief from something specific in the decades old text or not. I probably first read the text of a Ring of Invisibility almost 4 decades ago.

I'm with Ashiel, I'd be loath to reduce the CR much if at all. That the players have previously fought it is largely irrelevant to me. As you said each is essentially a new encounter making it effectively no different than if they had fought 3 (or 5) different dragons in differing encounters except that each side has learned more about the other with each encounter.

That said the Curse is a major consideration and makes the dragon significantly weaker for encounters while cursed. What I'd most likely do is have the dragon attempting to find a way to rid itself of the curse (going to see those goblins perhaps) and effectively put the party on a secret timer after which it automatically finds the cure (maybe they even learn of the 'timer' after capture of some goblins). If the party catches the dragon prior to removing the curse (and/or the rest of the damage) then the same CR because that's their 'bonus' reward for doing well and getting the dragon prior to its recovery. If they find and defeat the dragon but not until after it is cured than maybe drop the reward to CR9 or maybe just leave it be as they will get a tougher fight out of 'yet another' dragon encounter (particularly if it has goblin allies about).

Bottom line I wouldn't worry too much about the exact CR and exactly how that translates into xp. Give what feels right and forget about exactly how you arrive at the 'right' amount. Any bonus from numerous repeated encounters with the same dragon is 'story' xp. It certainly sounds as if the party has a significant tale to tell upon returning home where ever that may be.

I'm in the group of 'doesn't think it will accomplish what you are trying to do" with the caveat of maybe I don't entirely follow what you are trying to do.

Either way I suspect you need the Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew forums more than Advice (or more specifically you need advice on a Homebrew/House Rule answer for your issue).

Would stretching out the spell level progression between acquiring the next higher level of spell help? If it wasn't strictly linear you could still have 9th level spells without worrying about post 20th play.

Part of the issue is it involves "Stealth and Perception" which is a bit of a muddle as well.

Why should Still and Silent effect Spellcraft at all? Why aren't the effects and modifiers, if any, based off of Perception i.e. "but you must be able to clearly see the spell as it is being cast, and this incurs the same penalties as a Perception skill check due to distance, poor conditions, and other factors."? Wouldn't (shouldn't) altered components fall into the 'other factors' category?

Why doesn't casting time explicitly alter the Spellcraft DC?
Okay so let's not worry about the difference between an action, full round and a 1 round casting time. But what about when it goes for 3 rounds or 10 minutes or you get the idea?

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