Hedge Magician-Trait-Reduce cost of any crafted magic item by 5%
Arcane Builder-Feat/ACF-reduce crafting time by 25%
Craft Wondrous Item
Craft Wand
Craft Rod
Craft Staff
Forge Ring

Craft Wondrous Item is going to be the most useful. Craft Rod lets you make metamagic rods, which is sweet. Craft Wand gives you all those useful low level utility spells in a more cost effective form than a scroll. Forge Ring/Craft Staff are great, but you won't use them often since you can wield one staff and two rings.

The 5% discount from Hedge Magician doesn't seem like much, but it will add up significantly. Arcane Builder allows for faster crafting and is only really useful if the GM is a stickler about time and doesn't allow for downtime.

Sence I am the "wrong" Dm here let me make sure everyone knows what I ruled on (5' step does not factor in here at all):

Player (2nd or 3rd level Magus/ 1st level Paladin important part: 1 attack per round) is attacking a gnoll. He casts shocking grasp and attacks with his longsword (Melee Dmg and Spell Damage), he then wants to take his "free" attack, Melee damage only because he's already used his spell. What I said, was he does not get two melee attacks in the same round. Maybe I'm missing it Gina and Shfish, but I don't see anyone disagreeing with this. IF he was at a 6/1 attack per round, he of course, get two melee attacks, the second one without magic.

I welcome opinions but what I'm looking for here is someone who wrote or helped write the rules.

I feel an overwhelming desire to insult you and call you names sir. Grick set it out for you on a golden platter exactly how it is by the rules. He did not state any opinions. In my opinion, you gave him a giant middle finger.

I would wager that his explanation is better than most that have come before. I would also go so far as to say that one of the designers would tell you to reference Grick's post.

So, would you also tell me that my level 1 fighter with the two weapon fighting feat only gets one attack since he doesn't have a BAB of +6/+1? What about the archer with the rapid shot feat? Does he only get a single attack, with a -2 penalty no less, until he has a BAB high enough to get two attacks?

Combat casting is a must if you intend on being in combat. Clerics, paladins, inquisitors, magi, etc will be in combat and casting spells, which is exactly where you need the feat.

I never pick it up on my wizards, as Abraham spalding, said, I keep away from things that hit me. Once you get access to invisibility/fly you can place yourself where you won't need it.

Finally, Combat Casting is only good for casting defensively, there is a trait, focused mind if memory serves, that gives you a +2 to all concentration checks. This is much better than combat casting over-all, but still unnecessary.

The game master is the final arbiter of what happens. You chose the incorrect time to argue with the GM. It is almost always better to wait until later, after the combat or session, to put forth a complaint. The only reason I say this is because when challenged, most people stop listening and stick to their guns. This is a bad idea when dealing with someone who is, more or less, "god". Asking for a simple rules verification is great: "hey, that doesn't sound like a very believable suggestion. My character knows that if he does what he is told, he and his friends would die. Would I be right to refuse?" If your GM sticks to his guns, then go along with it and bring it up after the BBEG eats your face.

Now, I think your GM made a bad call. I agree that he should have made a more creative and believable suggestion, sometimes we, as GMs misspeak. With that in mind, I would have allowed another save. To be honest, it sounds like your gm was hitting the reset button. He was out to kill the party and start fresh.

well we were given 28 points to put in however we felt was best. as far as other build rules im not sure what you mean. like i said im new and trying to learn as i go. sorry for posting in the wrong forum....lol didnt know it was such a big deal but i apologize. what exactly are the traits ive been seeing that term alot but i dont what they are. i deff want to roll shocking grasp so pumping it would be nice.

When we talk about build rules, we are referring to the specific rules your GM has set for the current campaign.

For example, I finally get to play in a game, rather than run it. The GM has given everyone a set of rules that we have when it comes to character building.

We have a 25 point buy using standard rules from core rule book. (YAY)

May draw on all Pathfinder published works: core, apg, UC, UA, and d20psrd with approval.

We must be of a good alignment, or neutral with good tendencies. (save the world from evil type game)

We may play any race from the core rule book or bestiaries providing that they have a "creature as character" section with two exceptions. No half breeds such as half-orc or half-elf. (sucks, I know)

Two traits chosen at first level.

Character level at start of game is 3rd level with standard wealth by level.

The only playable classes are those who have, or will have a caster level. (no barb, gunslinger, rogue, monk, etc. Her rules, not mine)

Anyway, the rules gives us, the people who you are asking for advise, a base on which to advise you. Hope this helps. :)

I'd switch Dex and Int personally - 20 int gives another 1st level spell to use - at 1st level thats more useful and flexible than a +1 to hit.

20 int also means that Arcane Accuracy gives a very nice +5 to all your attacks. At third level, given that by this time you are using at least a master work weapon, you have a +7 to hit. The +5 from Arcane Accuracy completely negates the -2 for using spell combat, leaving you with a +10 to both attack rolls. A fighter would need to have weapon focus, a masterwork weapon, and a 20 in strength/dexterity to have the same for one attack at third. Not too shabby.

this is my first time playing pathfinder and im trying to optimize a build for a tiefling magus.

STR: 10 DEX: 20 CON: 13 INT: 20 WIS: 10 CHA: 12

ive already taken weapon fin and my first feat just not sure what else to do....
any advice and/or help would be very useful.

Thanks!

Build rules really are needed to offer good advise. We don't know what material you have access to.

That being said, since you are going the dexterous route, you may want to look into Dervish Dance and Piranha Strike to help out your regular damage. This is, of course, if you plan on using a Scimitar.

Can you use traits? If so, Magical Lineage for shocking grasp is the way to go. Pick up Intensify Spell and get a shocking grasp that does your level in D6 electrical damage (max 10d6) with no save for a first level spell slot. Cheeze? yes, but RAW.

Honestly, I'd change your style a bit. Unmodified by racials, you have stats of 10 18 13 18 10 14. This is what I would do:

Str: 18
Dex: 15 (13+2 racial)
Con: 14
Int: 20 (18+2 racial)
Wis: 10
Cha: 8 (10-2 racial)

You have more than enough Int for a magus, which means that you have more than enough points in your Arcane Pool. You could put your 18 in Con and the 14 in Int(giving you a 16 int)and still be awesome sauce. You still have a good dex for your AC and reflex saves, your con is better, and your charisma is average for your race.

Player is suggesting that since flurry is a full attack action, that he should be able to spend a ki point to take an additional attack as part of his full attack action...

I am unsure as how to rule. Any thoughts.

Part of the Ki Pool allows the monk to spend a point to make another attack as part of his flurry of blows.

Master of many styles loses flurry of blows.

Am I correct in ruling that specific ability from the Ki pool is no longer available, since flurry has been sacrificed, or is there something in the rules elsewhere that I have missed?

How balanced is it to allow other classes to take arcane discoveries as feats? There are a number of them that seem like they should apply equally to other classes.

Weapon Specialization should apply to any martial class. Dedication and practice should allow a paladin or barbarian to access this feat. It makes sense...right?

I am against offering these abilities to other classes. They were set up as alternate class features for a wizard. They can be taken with the bonus feat at 5th, 10th, 15th and 20th as well as any other feat. Some are very nice abilities, but they are specific to the wizards thirst for knowledge.

I agree that they would make sense for other classes, however, just because it could/should, doesn't mean that it will.

Rule Zero is still the final authority though.

My sorcerer being a PFS character, custom spells are right out.

In that case.../fail. lol

Related question: Does the Ice Scorching Ray you get as an elemental bloodline sorcerer work with Rime Spell. Might be nice to entangle something 2 rounds with no save.

Seeing how they gave a guidline for creating spells, I dont' see why one couldn't research a "Frozen Ray" that is identical to scorching ray with the exception that it is cold damage.

This being the case, I would say yes.

Kalrik wrote:

BAB +6/+1
Two weapon fighting +4/-1/+4
Improved two weapon fighting +4/-1/+4/+1

Tell me that isn't confusing.

That's not how TWF works. The -2 applies to all attacks, so with TWF and ITWF you've got +4/+4/-1/-1 with every other attack with the off-hand weapon.

It's really not that hard.

So you are saying that the second off hand attack granted by Improved two weapon fighting at base attack-2 for two weapon fighting-5 for improved two weapon fighting= BAB-7?

Site your reference please.

The way this is written, it looks to me that the -5 penalty replaces the -2 penalty.

Tilnar wrote:

Vaahama wrote:

....Benefit: When making a full-attack action with a ranged

weapon, you can fire one additional time this round. All of
your attack rolls take a –2 penalty when using
Rapid Shot.....

When i'm reading the definition i can't figure out clearly what bonus to use for that third attack!

Let say my base attack bonus is +6/+1, what would be my third attack (+4/-1/?)

What bits of info am i missing?

Basically, think of it as Two-Weapon Fighting for ranged weapons, so your attack is +4/+4/-1. Although, you're right, it doesn't say that explicitly in the PRD...

Iterative attacks always confuse me. Tilnar how do you get +4/+4/-1? Those first two attacks are made at the full BAB?

I don't have my book in front of me at the moment, but I think the wording is something like:

You may make an extra attack with your bow at your highest base attack bonus. All attacks this round suffer a -2 penalty to hit.

This is how I've always interpreted it. It is easier than two weapon fighting by far.

BAB +6/+1
Two weapon fighting +4/-1/+4
Improved two weapon fighting +4/-1/+4/+1

Tell me that isn't confusing.

I like it. I just scanned it since I have to be getting to work in a few but I'll be coming back to it for a good read through.

I dislike having to homebrew up rules and monsters. I'd rather just make a quick note in the book and be able to apply it from then on, and I prefer that it be within the rules. It is a pain in the rear to tell the players that the rules are the rules, and then break them. I can't get away with "I'm the GM" as much as I'd like since then I get "then change the rules for me too." Downright annoying!

In any case, since the rules are not complete, I figure I can increase the DC of the poison by increasing the Craft check DC. The cost of the poison can be increased by figuring the cost per point of DC and tacking it on. Similar to a balanced equation, the poisons are proportionally more expensive. This can represent the cost of having a master alchemist make such a poison.

Again, there are no set rules, so this can get out of control. A PC wants a DC 30 poison at 10th level, it isn't diffucult to make. Just off the top of my head, a 10th level character can easily hit a +23 with only skill focus devoted to poisoning. Better than average chance of success and, if more devoted, is practically impossible to fail. That is one beefy poison and probably overpowering. It would be easy to impose the rule that the DC cannot be raised more than 10 points in this manner, or that it cannot be raised by more than the number or ranks the crafter has in the craft alchemy skill, or some variable of.

So, poison. Great at low levels, really terrible at high levels. Problem is, in real life and a lot of fiction novels, poison is a very dangerous threat. So how do we make this a real threat?

The book states:

It was clerified here

This being the case, Drow poison still sucks at DC 13 even if my rogue hits the guard with three poisoned darts. DC 17 still isn't great, but it is far more respectable. I have a pc that wants to play a peaceful poisoner...knockout poisons and strength damage poison to debilitate but not kill. Makes it hard when poisons are so weak.

Now, this can be taken several ways. The list only representing the poisons are pre-created poisons, not the ONLY poisons. Creating NEW poisons is problematic when taking frequency, effect, cure conditions, and cost. So, here is what I'm thinking.

The dc to craft drow poison with a DC of 13 is 13 and costs 25gp per dose(75 gp market value). Why can't a skilled alchemist craft a concentrated "drow poison" with a higher DC? Math out the gp cost per point of DC: in this case 5gp/DC, market value.

A DC 20 drow poison takes a DC 20 Craft Alchemy Check and costs roughly 37gp per dose to create. (7x5=35; 75+35=110; 110/3=36g66s66c)

I know i'm treading on the homebrew line, but since the rules are so vague on poisons, I'm wondering what everyone thinks of this? Is there any better system out there and where can I find it?

Really do need more information. What kind of island? The tropics would be much different compaired to a northern island. Is the tribe friendly? Can the boat be repaired by the party? Do you want hack and slash or a measure of RP?

Quick starting ideas.

The boat ran aground and is too badly damaged to repair without materials. The surviving members of the crew are confident that they can repair the ship, but they need some specific materials: wood, pitch, nails, etc.

Durring the storm, a good deal of the supplies, specifically the ones needed to make a speedy repair, went overboard. The other concern is that in those supplies was a good portion of the foodstuffs needed by the crew.

The best hope is to deal with this tribe for food and needed materials so that the party and the crew don't starve and can conduct the required repairs.

The tribe is distrustful of outsiders but not openly hostile. They don't speak common or any openly known language. The captian that previouly washed up here is needed to translate. The tribe is willing to deal, but the party and crew have nothing that they want, as far as goods go. There is a menace on this island that the tribe hasn't been able to deal with. They need the party's help!

I would attempt to do more, but I have to get on to work. Again, this is really rough and needs some work, just quick ideas.

When Using Spellstrike, as written, if the magus criticals with the melee weapon, does the spell critical as well?

There was a feat called Extra Finesse published in the 3.5 compatable Swashbuckling setting, if I am not mistaken. I do not believe it is OGL.

Otherwise, besides dervish dance, I know of no feat in print that allows for dex to damage.

Currently, I have a similar feat in my homebrew.

Thats what I thought, I just wanted to be sure before I started adjusting my character sheet. My GM is being a butt about all my gear being sized for a medium character though, lol.

The subject line says it all. He is now a halfling. What do I do?

The listed changes for a halfling are -2 str; +2 dex; +0 con.

Here is my question: When it says to elimainate the subjects racial adjustments, will my human lose the +2 he put into intelligence? The wording looks like it only applies to the subjects physical abilities.

These abilities remind me of the old spell casting prodigy feat. IMO, it insn't overly powerful if, when determining abilities and all casting related variable, the sorcerer's charisma is treated as 2 points higher. They still aren't as good as a wizard. :P

Make sure that you tell your GM that you used Planar binding to get a succubus to give you a +2 profane to your Int. Shouldn't be too hard at 17th level. :)

13 Dex, 14 Con, 18 Int

+2 racial,+5 level, +5 wish, +6 item, +2 profane gives you a 38.

If you really want to tweek it, take the -3 str/dex/con to get the +2 int, wis, and cha for being old to cap at a 40int. :)

If you are a transmuter, you get free physical stat enhancements, so con isn't a problem. If you are worried about hitting, well, a quickened true strike is only a 5th level spell.

Deadly Stroke doesn't work with Vital Strike. It is a fact, there is no arguement. You don't need to combo them, since Deadly Stroke has a requirement of being stunned or flat footed, means that the DPS will not be consistant.

Focus on Vital Strike Tree, Power Attack, Furious Focus, and a Falchion.

Greater Vital Strike requires BAB of 16. So, we need to be at least 16th level.

Assume a starting strength of 18, +4 for level adjustments, and a +6 enchancement from belt gives us a 28 strength (+9 modifier).

Overhand Chop and Backswing allow us to use double the strength modifer to damage. Greater Power attack lets us double the bonus from power attack (-5,+10). Weapon Training gives us +3 to hit and damage.

Allow for a +4 weapon.

Sub out any feats you don't want.

16 bab,+9 str,+4 wep,+3 wepT+,2 wf,+1 trait= +35/+30/+25/+20

If you are focusing on a single attack using vital strike, you always will power attack (-0,+10)(no penalty because of furious focus).

+35 melee (8d4+39) 15-20/x2 average damage is 59 with a 30% chance to crit. Crits deal an average of 103 with a +39 to hit.

Given the same feat spread with a great sword deals (8d6+39)(67 avg). A crit deals 113 average, with a 20% chance to crit.

Dwarven Waraxe deals 8d10+39 (84 average). Crit deals 183 average 10% of the time.

I'm fairly sure on my math. The Falchion crits nearly one in three attacks. The greatsword crits once in five, and the Waraxe one in ten.

The Waraxe is the front runner in damage output. You will crit more with the falchion, therefore, you will apply the critical feats more often.

Well, there's always quicken spell. It's a great spell for melee clerics.

In one round, you can cast quickened divine favor, righteous might, then move in, drawing a weapon as you do so.

I also really like Scribe Scroll. There are a LOT of cleric spells (Remove Curse, Water Breathing) that you don't need often, but you REALLY need when you do. Scrolls are great for that.

+1

Quicken Spell is great for clerics. The combat cleric makes great use of quicken, so does the buffer cleric. Nothing wrong with a quickened Prayer.

Reach Spell is really good, but you need to remember that if you apply it for spontaneously "dropped" cures the rules for using metamagic feats for spontaneous casters apply. At least, that is what I take from it.

I've always disagreed with increasing casting time for spontaneously cast spells and allow the 3.5 feat Rapid Metamagic to reduce the casting time.

What is the general rule when it comes to adjusting stats? Does it matter anymore?

I want to adjust a group of elves in a homebrew world. They are similar to the old school wood elves who favor martial training.

I want them to have +2 strength, but i'm unsure how to keep it balanced, but still in line with the pathfinder elves; +2 to two stats and a -2 to another. So what is a good balance? +2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con seems too good. So does +2 Str, -2 con, +2 wis. I don't want to return to the days of sub race cheese, but I don't want to tweek into something that is over powered stat wise.

Or should I even care?

A little help would be appriciated.

BenignFacist, I LOL'd so hard I woke up my wife.

Do you have Arcane Defense? Arcane Blast? Defense is almost a must since it negates the need for a ring of protection, thus giving you a free ring slot. Arcane Blast is good if you are playing a specialist that gives up Evocation, something almost every specialist I play does.

"oh, you took away my spell books. I'll just prepare all my spell slots with read magic and Heightened read magic and blast my way out"

Though, a wizard would never allow that to happen, but it sounds cool.

Toughness is good. Eschew Materials is great...depending on how angry your DM is. Defensive Combat Training is a gem. Point Blank and Precise Shot feats? Any of the Crafting Feats are always good and money savers.

I know that lvl 20 isn't a great way to test a class since most will never see that level, but a bout of insomnia hit me.

Lvl 20 GS, starts with a 17 dex,+2 racial, +4 ability for level, +5 wishing tome, +6 belt equals a 34 dexterity.

Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Greater Two Weapon Fighting, Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim, Improved Critical

BAB 20 + 12 dex mod + 5 Weapon + 1 Weapon Focus = +38/+33/+28/+23

Two +5 Speed Revolvers (I like Advanced Weapons and at 20th level, sure)

Rapid Shot
Main Hand: +32/+32/+32/+27/+22/+17
Off Hand : +32/+32/+31/+26
1d8+17 damage; 10% critical Chance; Primary hand hits Touch AC 19 95% of the time, off hand hits Touch AC 28 95% of the time. (odds that one attack will critical for 4d8+68, or average of 86)

If all attacks hit, average damage is 279

Rapid Shot+Deadly Aim
Main Hand: +26/+26/+26/+21/+16/+11
Off Hand : +26/+26/+25/+20
1d8+29 damage; 10% critical chance; Primary hand hits touch AC 13 95% of the time, off hand hits Touch AC 22 95% of time.(odds that one attack will critical for 4d8+116, or average of 134)

if all attacks hit, average damage is 435

A fighter with a 34 strength and focused on using a falchion using power attack will have:

(+5 speed Falchion)15-20x3
+43/+37/+32/+27/+22 for 2d4+49 (avg 57/hit)(1 crit/full attack for 156)
Fighter has 55% chance to hit AC 32.
All hitting 384 damage.

However, the GS is out of ammo in one gun and down to two shots. No matter what, the GS has to holster, or drop, a weapon as a move action to reload, most likely a free action, then holster his main hand and draw his off as a free, take a five foot step. Reload his off hand as a free action, draw his main hand and make his full attacks.

GS:
Round 1: full attack 435 damage
Round 2: Reload Main
Round 3: Reload Off and full attack 435 damage
Total: 870 damage

Fighter:
Round 1: Full attack 384 damage
Round 2: Full attack 384 damage
Round 3: Full attack 384 damage
Total: 1152 damage

Quick math, and I'm very tired. So If I'm wrong somewhere, please correct. I also used a basic fighter and not a two handed weapon master, no book atm.

I also figure that the GS has to invest over 256k in his guns, where the fighter only drops 200k and wil probably be running a +5 speed elemental burst weapon. (I'm a fan of +5 speed, defending, bane, weapon myself) Fighter will also have more money for armor and spiffy magic items since the GS has to spend 10g/shot.

If my math is correct, GS has a bigger burst DPS using advanced weapons but will come in behind in the sustained DPS.

Leave it as it is. The class is called "Gunslinger", it is not an alternate like the Two-Hand Fighter or Archer from the APG.

The Gunslinger gets Dex to damage, and it has been argued many times before that Dex is a better stat since it's modifier is used for AC, ranged to hit, skills, and reflex saves already. They target touch AC at close range and for a grit point, longer ranges, and can have Deadly Aim apply.

A nonhuman Gunslinger 8 probably only has Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim, Improved Initiative, Quick Draw. No room for weapon focus/specialization.

A fighter using a musket does 1d12+2 whereas a Gunslinger does 1d12+dex modifier. The gunslinger will come out ahead.

wraithstrike wrote:

All they have to do is Gate the wizard into where they live. A wizard is a specific human, but he is not a unique being just because he has class levels.

Ooo, this is some excellent plot fodder in addition to being a method to crackdown on anyone being a little too game-breaking.

1. Said wizard casts his quickened energy resistance resistance, casts time stop, kills the efreeti, and gates home.

2. Contingency kicks in. My favorite is a resilient sphere targeted on myself. That way, I have at least a round to planeshift home. If I'm binding extraplanar beings and making them perform tasks for me, I had better have a planeshift ready.

If you are high enough level to abuse planar binding, you are high enough level to escape if nescessary. However, opening a gate and haveing 20 leveled efreeti march onto the material plane and hunt the wizard is a completly different story.

Ok, go with the Controler Focused School. Not that it matters too much, but a free dominate monster effect and telepathy with charmed/dominated minions is never bad.

25 point buy for the wizard (Enchanter; barred schools: evocation, illusion)
Stats 8(-2)14(5)12(2)17(13)12(2)14(5)

Str 8
Dex 16 (+2 from belt)
Con 14 (+2 from belt)
Int 28 (+6 from headband)
Wis 12
Cha 14

Feats:
Improved Initiative, Spell Focus: Enchantment, Combat Casting, Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment, Extend Spell, Persistant Spell, Craft Wonderous Item, Bouncing Spell, Arcane Defense, Heighten Spell

Traits: Focused Mind(+2 concentration); Reactionary (+2 initiative)

Base Spell DCs 19+spell level
Enchantment DC 21+spell level

Concentration 1d20+29 vs 15+2xspell level means that she cannot fail to cast defensivly.

Spell Level 0/1/2/3/4/5/6/7
Spells/Day 5/8/7/7/7/6/5/4

That means at least 15 dominated minions, 9 of which have been dominated with an extended dominate person. Redominating is made easier by congregating minions in a central area holding a Mind Fog.

Rogues and Fighters are easy to dominate, especially with the DC 26 save required by a dominate person. A heightened Dominate Person is DC 28.

Combat consists of minions, feeblemind, insanity, and or dominates. Use the dirty tricks of bouncing and persistant spell because if you have a group of 7 PCs, that means the wizard is in trouble. Hasted minions and Slowed party members is dangerous. Throw in an Enervation or Bestow Curse, just in case Dominates are not effective(any party that KNOWS it is going against an evil enchanter and doens't have protection from evil or a magic circle deserves to TPK)

Defenses are dominated bodyguards and Arcane Shield gives instant defense. Make using Invisibility cost more resources. If you want this to be a recurring villian, Teleport away if things look bad.

Again, if the party is 11th level and doesn't have mental protection, they deserve to be owned by the wizard. If they do, the wizard's most powerful spells become next to useless.

Elemental (air) bloodline sorcerers get to treat their charisma as if it were 2 points higher for "all sorcerer class abilities."

What, exactly, does this apply to? Obviously any 3+cha mod abilities are affected, however, does this bonus apply to bonus spells for high charisma and saves?

I'm prone to say yes to both, but I'm more liberal on intrepretations. How it reads sounds like a yes to bonus spells per day, since spells per day would count as class abilities, but not nescessarily to saves.

What is correct?

I'm not sure if this is the right forum for this, but I wanted peoples opinions.

Specifically reguarding Spellcraft, I'm thinking of allowing casters to use their casting stat instead of int. For wizards, the current rules are great, because everthing for a wizard is generated off int.

Spellcraft is knowledge and skill in casting magic. I understand why it is by RAW based on int, but it seems like everyone except wizards are getting shafted.

It makes sense to have the skill that represents a casters skill with magic be based off their primary casting stat.

What say everyone?

The caster level next to the item is how powerful the item registers to detect magic and is used for determining DC for creating. Also counts as CL in the cases of dispel magic, disjunction, etc.

First, it is most important to keep in mind that this whole paragraph relates only to the prerequisites listed in the item descriptions. The magic armor and magic weapon special prerequisites are not listed in any item's description. These special prerequisites are listed in the magic armor and magic weapon item creation sections. As such, the special prerequisites listed there are wholly unrelated to this paragraph, and the increased DC bypass is not eligible to bypass the special prerequisite for magic armor and magic weapon creation since said special prerequisites is never listed in any item's description as a prerequisite. Hence why it's a special prerequisite and not a general prerequisite.

I can get behind this reasoning. I'm a generally stubborn person but I will admit it when I see where I went wrong. Allowing for the +5 DC for not meeting the requirements listed in the items description is different from a requirement listed in the general description for crafting said kind of item. I see that now. Thanks.

Now, what about Bracers of Armor. Requirements in items descriptions states creator must have a CL of 2x armor bonus. Not meeting that requirement would incur the added +5 DC by this logic.

Lorekeeper, I can see where you are coming from, but I have to disagree with the needing someone else to help to complete the item.

I'm all for limiting the power of items a character can craft, but doing so in that way adds to the gp cost of the items and feat cost.

Say the 8th level party monk saved the money and wants the 8th level party wizard to make him a Monk's Robes. The CL is 10, costs 13k gp, and requires Righteous Might or Transformation. DC is 15; 20 because the crafter doesn't know the right spell. Easy to make for an 8th level Wizard.

By your rules, he would need to seek out a mage or cleric with either spell and have them help him craft for 13 days, and still incur the +5 to the DC. Well, Righteous Might is a 5th level cleric spell and Transformation is a 6th level wizard spell. Spell casting services are CLxSLx10. 450g for the cleric to cast the spell once, 660g for the wizard. A single casting takes about 6 seconds of the casters day, not 8 hours. A cleric could charge a minimum of 5850gp for helping the wizard crafter, and that is just for casting the spell 13 times.

In my opinion, that is punishing characters for taking item creation feats and willing to take the risk of a higher DC for a better item sooner.

Kalrik wrote:

On page 551, under creating potions, it states "The creator must have prepared the spell to be placed in the potion(or know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires." This is not listed as a special prerequisite. A cleric cannot make a potion of shield, unless it is a domain spell, by adding a +5 dc for missing prerequisite because knowing the spell is not listed anywhere as a prerequisite.

"The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites."

I didn't quote the second sentence, earlier, because we weren't discussing potions/scrolls/wands. However, do not forget that it is still explicitly covered in the magic item creation section in the RAW. You may not have to provide the spells personally, but a spell-trigger or spell-completion item cannot be created without the spell prerequisites.

We still aren't discussing potions/scrolls/wands. I held up the wording in crafting potions as an example of specific word choices. You are 100% correct about spell completion/trigger items.

I'm trying to come up with a clever analogy, but it is too early.

My point is that by RAW any prerequisite, excluding actually having to have the feat, can be traded for a +5 DC if the creater does not meet meet that prerequisite. The fact that the CLx3 for arms and armor bonus is listed as a prerequisite mean that the rule applies.

Wording is largly important in everything; especially in rules.

Just to add to the muddy waters - personally I like to read RAW even more restrictive; mostly because it makes more sense to me. From RAW the following is true:

1. All prerequisites need to be met.
2. Prerequisites may be met by somebody else (not the crafter).
3. Prerequisites not met (by the crafter) increase the craft DC by +5

All this I take to mean that it is not possible to simply replace the unknown "Bull's Strength" spell with a +5 to the DC. However, you can have a friend or paid caster available to cast the spell for you. This increases the DC by 5; but you can still craft the item that way.

The beauty of this reading of the rules is that its not readily possible to craft arbitrary items simply by concentrating hard enough. You need to find the necessary resources in some form or other.

But then you aren't following the RAW; you are adding constraints outside of the rules as you see fit. By RAW, the bolded sentence is incorrect. As written, it is possible. If a friend helps, you do not suffer the +5 DC, because you have all the required components.

In the craft magical arms and armor sections on page 550-551 it states in both fields that, "Creating a magic armor [weapon] has a special prerequisite:." The RAW classifies it as a prerequisite.

On page 551, under creating potions, it states "The creator must have prepared the spell to be placed in the potion(or know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires." This is not listed as a special prerequisite. A cleric cannot make a potion of shield, unless it is a domain spell, by adding a +5 dc for missing prerequisite because knowing the spell is not listed anywhere as a prerequisite.

Shuriken Nekogami wrote:

by saying caster level is not a requirement, you are allowing the crafting of a +5 sword by a 5th level elven wizard, with an easier spellcraft DC.

Caster level is not a requirement, but that does not mean a 5th level character can make a +5 sword if he has the gold and time.

"Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon."

Creating magic armor has the same special prerequisite. These are unavoidable prerequisites, just like the item creation feat itself. Nobody can make a magic wand without the Craft Wand feat (or something that lets you use the feat, like an Arcane Bond wand). You cannot get around these prerequisites. The "prerequisites" that are listed in the item entry are all passable through an increased DC check +5. The CL is not listed in the prerequisites section of any item (at least, that I can recall). The CL is only tied to the DC to craft and the properties of the item (resisting spells and such).

Additionally, an Elf gets the +2 bonus to Spellcraft only when identifying magic items.

Sure, he can make a +1 Brilliant Energy sword (+1 and +4, effectively +5), but he can't make a +2 sword until he's 6th level.

Where does it say this?

You missed a prerequisite you won't be able to get around. Where is a 5th lvl character getting the gold to craft a +5 weapon?... Unless the weapon is the only thing he owns cuz he hocked all his other stuff to afford it... And got the party to loan him all there gold too.

Wealth by level (lvl 5): 10,500 Gp
Cost to craft +5 weapon: 25,000 Gp - not including MW and weapon base price

I see what you are saying, but that isn't what I was asking. Perhaps I should have prefaced my initial question with "barring the required gold piece required to craft items...."

Phneri wrote:

No, it doesn't. Because the spell doesn't do damage directly. Whoopsy.

And control wind? Against a fighter? The spell that allows a fort save every round to negate? And doesn't actually do damage until you're far higher level? And even AFTER the failed fort save allows a strength check to negate? Be serious.

it does nonlethal damage every round you fail a save for 10min/lvl. And in a hurricane you can expect the fighter will not be doing any flying at a -12 against winds blowing him straight down. A druid gets it at 9th lvl and just with traits I can increase my caster lvl by 2 if I want. So if I use death knell or an item to raise it 1. Voila hurricanes. not too difficult.

phneri wrote:

That's also a druid spell. So we've left the wizard behind now? What shall you did without that 8th level mind blank?

yeah I kept reading you and others say spellcasters in general. So I used an example of another type of caster who also woops a fighters ass consistently and druids have the benefit of not being as squishy as wizards which is another bonus.

Druids+natural spell=cute fuzzy animal of doom and destruction. I lothe natural spell, but havn't had players abuse it enough for me to ban it in my games.

Level is also a huge factor.

Low level fighter meets and wants to kill wizard.

Initiative goes to fighter. Charge+attack(with Power Attack). Hit. 1d8+5 damage (average 9 damage). Wizard has 8 HP and is beaten.

Initiative goes to Wizard. Casts Sleep (DC 14). Fighter fails, wizard wins. Fighter succeeds, see above.

Increasing the level is still very similar, with an exception. That fighter is getting one chance to either kill or lock down the wizard before the wizard leaves. Both teleport and dimension door are verbal components and are easy to get through a grapple. Concentration is 1d20+CL+ability modifier. 1d20+19 is a fair shot against target 10+cmb+spell level) *a 10th level fighter with a +5 str mod and improved grapple and greater grapple has a base of 29. Fifty fifty shot. (given that the wizard and fighter only have a +5 bonus to int/str)

Of course, by 11th level, contingency negates grappling.

Really high level of play means the fighter type will always lose. Greater Rod of Extend costs 24500gp(12250 if created by caster) and a Greater Rod of Maximize costs 121500gp(65250gp) and are both well worth the cost.

Extended Foresight lasts 20min/level. With items, the CL can get high, but even at CL 20 that spell lasts for 400 minutes, that is over 6.5 hours of not being able to be surprised or flat footed.
PLUS
Extended Moment of Prescience grants an insight bonus equal to caster level on an attack, CM check, ability or skill check, saving throw, or AC against one attack. That means that even if the fighter wins initiative, his attacks/CMs will likly miss. On the wizard's turn, that maximized Time Stop means a world of hurt for the fighter.

Adding gear for the fighter makes him dangerous. Adding gear to the wizard makes the wizard crazy stupid good.

Edit: Running away from a fight that can't be won at the moment is NEVER a bad idea. Making a wizard run away is a temporary victory.

Ok, here are my quandries. I looked, but was unable to find the answers.

Page 548-549 "The DC to create a magic item is 5 + the caster level for the item...The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet."

Belt of Giant Strength; CL 8 (DC 13)
Requires Craft Wonderous Item, Bull's Strength.

I don't have Bull's Strength as a spell. The DC to create increases by +5 to 18. Fairly simple. A fourth level wizard could make the check with good reliability.

My concerns revolve around special prerequisites. Boots of Elvenkind require the creator must be an elf. Is that another +5 for not meeting the prerequisite or does not being an elf stop the crafting?

What about weapons and armor? Page 550 states "Creating magic armor has a special prerequisite: The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the armor." Weapons are the same.

Can a crafter ignore meeting this special prerequisite by simply adding a +5 to the craft DC?

I don't know. By RAW, it looks that way. I dont' know if I'd allow it to be that simple. Maybe adding a +5 per 3 cls behind would be closer. CL 10 can make a +3 sword; caster wants to make a +5 sword, the DC increases by +10.

Also, I'm unsure about the "If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met." line. A + 2 speed sword has a CL requirement of CL 6 for the +2 and Cl 9 for speed because speed is a +3 bonus. The caster would need to be CL 9 to create, correct?

Heh. Maybe I will break out a nice bottle of wine for the efreeti. So I would normally avoid the whole binding a creature against its will thing, but my character really feels that this is a situation that could destroy everything he holds dear, and because of that is willing to go to some extremes.

Kalrik is correct. I was planning on not paying the efreeti anything, and simply forcing them to use their spell like ability for wish, which has not component cost.

I honestly do feel kind of selfish using the wishes to raise my intelligence, but dire straights. The idea came up when it was pretty much set that we needed to go into a demi plane and I couldn't scry it.

Type2Demon. I also agree. I hate having long winded wishes. I want to keep it simple and to the point, but with enough effort to at least try and protect myself. On the issue of making an eternal foe out of the efreeti, I am fine with that. The whole situation has put me in a situation where I am desperate, so if we live long enough to have a grudge match years from now that is fine by me both in and out of character.

Talk to you GM. He is going to be the ultimate power when it comes to how your wishing will come out.

Now, as a wizard you could give a complete arcane description of the way Wish works (knowledge Arcana). This demonstrates to the Efreeti that you understand his special power and, hopefully, makes it easier to get what you want.

Payment for work is a great concept, but you could alwasys demand that the efreeti serve you in a very dangerous way. You are only asking him or her to use special abilities that it cannot use for itself with no risk. This could possibily give you a bonus on your check and show the efreeti that you have no desire to harm it. I'm always more willing to help someone if there is no risk to me.(there is the veiled threat that you could get it killed)

*Alternatly, you could bind the efreeti, ask nicely, and if it refuses cast your Dimensional Lock spell. Then threaten to release the binding and kill the efteeti. I doubt your paladin friend will approve.

What I would do:
Bind the Efreeti. Offer refreshments of good quality and a small token of appriciation and apology for interrupting the efreeti's life. Ask it to use it's wishes for you in a benevolent way. If it says no then negociate using the fact that you are a 16th level wizard and a good allie to have. If that fails, appeal to the lawful nature and attempt a simple "for your wishes, I owe you" contract. (be sure the I owe you is something that is appealing but won't get you killed). If all else fails, attempt to force via spell mechanic or threats.

You also have the option of waiting a level and picking up dominate monster. Bind, Dominate, Profit.

An evocation wizard would add 1/2 his level to the damage of the spell and would get a force missile spell like ability. Empower spell will help with damage a little. Craft Wand will allow you to magic missile every round. An Elf or Gnome wizard would gain more uses of force missile class feature. Some metamagic feats like dazing spell or sickening spell would allow your spells to remain relevant despite low damage.

Good call on the dazing/sickening spell. However, they get a will/fortitude save, respecivly, to negate the effect. As it is worded, it looks like the DC is equal to the unmodified spell's DC...so it would be 11+ability modifier. That is rather low, considering dazing spell is a +3 sl and sickening is a +2 sl.

Realistically, you are going to have to talk to your GM. Until the Ultimate Magic is out we don't have a "build your own spells" guide, but a wizard should be able to research his own spells. Ask if you can research an Improved Magic Missile that deals 1d6+1/missile and gains missiles at 1/2 caster levels and never misses as a 3rd level spell; shield spell halves the damage. Greater Magic Missile deals 2d6+1/missile with 1 missile/2cl, never misses, and ignores shiled completely. Make it a 4th or 5th level spell.

I'd work with you as a GM to allow you to play a concept that you want.

First off, DO NOT BE A WISH LAWYER!

The more paragraphs, clauses and stipulations you add to the wish, the greater chance it will fail. Keep the wish to one sentence without being a run on sentance with lots of commas.

Forcing Efreeti to do something is playing with fire, afterwards they will probably hunt you down and kill you.

If your GM is cunning enough, then the Efreet should say something like: "Yes, Master I will grant your wishes, but if your first wish is not to for you to be my personal love toy, I'll remove your hands"

You better be very clever because one Efreet is bad enough, two would be a self imposed death sentence. Efreeti are immortal and they never forget who wronged them.

+1

Talk to your GM first and see what he thinks about using planar binding to gain wishes. At 16th level, you are certianly powerful enough to bind an efreeti. I've confirmed that spell-like abilities carry no material component cost.

Planar Binding:

"Casting this spell attempts a dangerous act: to lure a creature from another plane to a specifically prepared trap, which must lie within the spell’s range. The called creature is held in the trap until it agrees to perform one service in return for its freedom.

The target creature is allowed a Will saving throw. If the saving throw succeeds, the creature resists the spell. If the saving throw fails, the creature is immediately drawn to the trap (spell resistance does not keep it from being called). The creature can escape from the trap by successfully pitting its spell resistance against your caster level check, by dimensional travel, or with a successful Charisma check (DC 15 + 1/2 your caster level + your Charisma modifier). It can try each method once per day.

If the creature does not break free of the trap, you can keep it bound for as long as you dare. You can attempt to compel the creature to perform a service by describing the service and perhaps offering some sort of reward. You make a Charisma check opposed by the creature’s Charisma check. The check is assigned a bonus of +0 to +6 based on the nature of the service and the reward. If the creature wins the opposed check, it refuses service. New offers, bribes, and the like can be made or the old ones reoffered every 24 hours. This process can be repeated until the creature promises to serve, until it breaks free, or until you decide to get rid of it by means of some other spell. Impossible demands or unreasonable commands are never agreed to. If you ever roll a natural 1 on the Charisma check, the creature breaks free of the spell’s effect and can escape or attack you."

To freely grant you 3 wishes, I'd give the creature a +6 bonus on the check, and I'd make it in secret. If you beat the creature, you get the wishes as you like them and may have to suffer retribution. If you don't beat the efreeti, he refuses outright or you may still get your wishes, only in a way that you don't want.

"Once the requested service is completed, the creature need
only to inform you to be instantly sent back whence it came."

"I have completed your service master, enjoy" the creature puffs out of existance. Now you are stuck with whatever horrible thing your GM has the efreeti do.

Are you allowed to pull from 3.5? There are some great damage spells from the Spell Compendium that are unique and not overly powerful. Chain Missile, and Force Missile are two examples.

Now a force mage can be fun too. Interposing Hand spell and its follow ups are very nice. Resilient sphere is also a great offense/defense spell. Traps an enemy and they are out of the fight, or protects you while you buff, summon, heal, etc.

Ask your GM if he/she will allow you to change the descriptors on spells. Scorching Ray turns into Ray of force. Reduce the damage dice to d4s. I don't know where I read somewhere someone wrote that force damage is ususally one dice type lower in damage because it is not elemental, so it can't be resisted as easily. Besides, the idea of rolling 10d4 for a "Force Ball" is spiffy.

If you ONLY want to use pathfinder, find out how your GM views the intensify spell metamagic. Will he allow you to apply it to magic missile for extra missiles? If so, a maximized intensified magic missile nets you 35 damage. If you are an evoker, that brings it up to 40. Not too shabby.

You will also want Heighten Spell, since as a missile mage, your magic missiles are eaten by globe of invulnerability.

Just remember that a maximized magic missile is still a 1st level spell in a 4th level slot. If you "heighten" it to a 5th level slot, the spell is only heightened two levels and is consideded a 3rd level spell.

Chaining wishes for inherent bonuses to intelligence is probably the safest method of stat boosting. 2 Genies means you could get a +5 inherent relatively safely. However it's 5 wishes out of your daily limit of 6.

Learning about a demiplane basically requires a simulation of the Vision spell. Since it's a wish level effect it might have the umph necessary to penetrate whatever sort of scrying defense is in place on that demiplane.

Keep in mind that many DMs will enforce a strict negotiating cost of 25k per wish though. Otherwise efreeti can seriously break the magic-item power level economy even without their 3.x money generation antics.

I think going for higher power wishes can be worthwhile in extremis but for the most part it's a real excuse for DM sabotage.

I was under the impression that spell like abilities did not require a material component.

Furthermore, if you are using a planar binding, there would be no negociation...you make them your slave. I don't have access to my book at the moment, so I am unsure.

I don't 100% agree with the caster edition claim that some posters throw at Pathfinder but I do acknowledge that +2 Caster stat Racial bonuses plus higher HPs can make for pretty high end SoL casters.

For the most part I actively discourage people from exceeding the 17-18 caster threshold with their casters. Especially if they are going to be SoL specialists. Simply put, a SoL caster puts a bunch of design pressure on me as a GM in order to custom-make encounters that challenge the SoL caster while not overpowering the other characters.

I agree. I warn my casters to play nice with the GM. If they use those great spells against opponents, cool. If they ONLY use those spells against their opponents, then eventually things that they come across will have similar ideas...probably taken from the party.

I call it our gentlemen's agreement.

There is a reason 15 point buy is standard. Higher point buys brake the game. I'm the main reason my group uses 15 point buy now.

I find this amusing since under Generating Ability Scores in the core book it lists the standard as rolling 4d6 and dropping the lowest.

16 13 13 10 10 9 is a 15 point buy and the problem is still the EXACT SAME. Wizard still has an 18 in Int, fighter can still have a 14 in wisdom.

A wizard only needs a single stat to make life easy. On a 10 point buy I can have an elvish wizard with 7 14 10 18 12 8 after adjustments. No harm done there. I don't need strength or charisma.

You can try to blame stats, it won't make a difference. Everyone having an 18 in all stats is the same as everyone haveing a 12 in all stats since the ability modifiers are never multiplied. Stats are irrelevent. Hell, take them away. A first level spell has a DC 11 to succeed. A fighter has to roll an 11 at first level to succeed. At 17th level, a fighter rolls a d20+5 versus a DC 19 for a 9th level spell, still has to roll a 14. Feats and magic items then favor the fighter greatly unless a wizard has access to items that boost save DCs since the only way to do that is with feats or increasing a spell casting stat.

A fighter with a 12 wisdom and Iron Will at first level has a +3 to his will saves. A wizard with a 14 in intelligence has a DC 13 first level charm person/sleep. Still a 50/50 chance of failing.

25 point buy.

I like 17 14 14 12 10 10. 16 14 14 13 12 10 are also well rounded.

In any case, a wizard will have a 19 in int, 20 by 4th level.
A fighter will have 19 in str, 14 in con, and a 14 in wisdom.

The fighter takes iron will and improved iron will. Since we are looking for a mage slayer, a half elf is best. Use the Dual Minded alternate racial trait in place of Adaptability for an additional +2 on all will saves.

At first level, that fighter has base saves of +2/+0/+4 (+6 vs enchantment). A 14 in wisdom means that fighter has a +6(+8) for his will saves.

A wizard will have a 19 intelligence. At first level that means that his DCs are 15 for a first level spell. The fighter has to roll a 9 to make a save, better than a 50% chance. If the spell is enchantment then the roll only needs to be a 7, giving him a 70% chance to succeed.

Add nine levels. That fighter has a base will of +7(+9), probably has at least a +3 cloak of resistance and an item that improves wisdom...since he is stacking for his mage killing. Let us say a +2 item for now. That makes his save +13(+15).

Wizard has 5th level spells. Int is sitting at 25 (21 nat, +4 item). Base save DC is 17; 5th level spells are DC 23. Fighter has to roll a 10 or better to succeed. Against enchantments, he has to roll an 8 or better (65% chance to succeed).

So far, it is roughly 50/50 with a better chance to beat enchantment, which is one of the fighter's trouble schools.

Now, lets say the fighter isn't a half elf with the alternate racial ability. Increase the needed rolls by 2 and those against enchantment by 4. Now the fighter is worse than 50/50. If the wizard is a focused caster with spell focus and greater spell focus, the odds get worse.

A human fighter with the same gear at tenth level his save is +11. An enchanter with the same gear has a save dc of 23 (25 vs enchantment). Now the fighter has to roll a 12 to save, 14 to save versus enchantment. That is only a 35% chance to succeed.

Finally, what of those spells that require no save. Enervation is a 4th level spell. Maximizing it take either a rod or a 7th level spell. If I can cast 7th level spells I can also cast reverse gravity, which also allows no save. A Quickened Wind Wall shuts down an archer, Quickened Displacement is always a good choice too, as well as Mirror Image. A quickened dispel magic gets rid of the fighter's potion of save me and allows a follow up spell.

Wizards don't need gear to be dangerous.

Edit: ninja'd by other DC breakdowns.