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Yep, and they wor just fine as far as my experience in a recent shipwreck/survival campaign has shown.

Kind of Ninja'd.
I was referring to the Automatic Bonus Progression from Tyinyk's post, Bandw2 shamelessly slipped in between.

Since the earthbreaker is a hammer and the feat does not have any other limiting clauses, I'd say yes.

Since it says "any creature in this area" and not "every creature who begins/ends its turn in this area", as some other effects do, I'd say it is the beginning of the casters turn for everybody staying in the radius and the moment they enter for creatures who only pass through.

You can find a pretty detailed list here

One thing that probably helps you find clear rules: Remember that reach attacks are treated like ranged weapons regarding cover/concealment.

As long as you don't have ponce or a similar ability that allows a full attack at the end of a charge, you can make exactly one attack after taking a half move or making a charge. It does not matter, wether you have 1 weapon of 50, you get to make exactly one attack. If you are wielding 2 weapons, you get to choose, which one you use.

Everything else aside:
WTF is wrong with you Mystic_Snowfang?

Even if you don't agree with Araknophobias attempt, YOU asked for help and they tried to give you that help. You know, for free. On their own time. Because they were trying to be nice.
Maybe think about that when you ask for help around here the next time.

That reply of yours some of the most unfriendly and ungrateful sh*t I've ever seen around these forums.

Wonderstell wrote:

For killing an army of commoners, there's nothing more effective than the Blistering Feint/Distracting Cloak/Battle Poi combo.

Just let your BBEG stand completely visible in the middle of the army, presumably on a flying mount, and then he'll feint everyone at the same time... dealing "the weapon's fire damage" to everyone who can see the BBEG. Twice.


Number of commoners affected: Everyone who aren't blind.

Investment: 4 feats and being of a certain race (5 feats if Human).

Damage: (1d8 + Str + Weapon Enchantment)x2

A fighter or brawler could pull this off at level 3.

That is an incredibly cheesy abuse of the weird RAW for feint and no sane GM should allow it on his table, neither on Player nor on NPC side.

I know it works RAW, but come on...

I'd say the penalty is having to explain to your GM how you transport that thing around in between combats and how you retrieve it before casting and stuff like that...

Or ask somewhere where people are not as closely bound by forum etiquette. Reddit comes to mind.

@ Cuttler: How are any of my examples Metagaming? Metagaming is using out-of-game knoledge in game without the PC/NPC having justifiable access to it.
A reasonably smart enemy could easily figure most of my points out after one round of "HOLY F**K THIS GUYS BLOOD KILLS US IF WE MAKE HIM BLEED!!!"
If PCs encountered an enemy who had this ability, they would also change their tactics accordingly.
- "look, the blood only goes so far, if we stay clear, we're cool"
(use reach)
- "Hey, if the wounds don't bleed, there's no blood to kill us"
(use bludgeoning or spells)
- "Hey, how about we try to make his blood hit his friends, archers, concentrate fire"
Are all reasonable thoughts/decisions for an NPC in battle. I would maybe put in some perception or intelligence checks for the enemies, but that's about it.
Of course all of this only comes into play if none of the enemies succeeded on their spellcraft check to identify his spell being cast and just tells his allies "Don't cut him, his blood kills" as a 6 word free action.
If you have an actual Big Bad and not a series of random encounters, the intel about the players tactics should filter back to him eventually anyway.

If the players only meet one group after the next of mindless and/or stupid enemies with no intel gathering skills, then this spell is going to kick major a**.

This is not experience based, but maybe it helps with your sorrows.

It does seem very powerful, but it does have some drawbacks compared to fire shield.

- Fire shield triggers on every ATTACK, this spell only on ever HIT (And magi don't usually have THAT many HP, in my experience they tank via mirror image and blur)
- It does not work against bludgeoning damage.
- Also it does NOT only trigger on melee attacks. Bows do piercing damage. If your player has this spell up and the situation on the field is like this for example:

P X A X X X X E (P= player, X = empty field, A = Ally, E = Enemy w/ a bow)

This would SERIOUSLY ruin the day for the ally.
Sure, it's a corner case, but it might come up, especially if you have an enemy who's done some research in the groups tactics.

If the player were to be attacked with a bow and the acid would NOT hit anyone, I as the GM would keep a close eye on what the 10d6 acid does to their surroundings, especially since the spell explicitly states that it damages objects.

The player better not get caught on a rope bridge with that spell up...

Also, average damage for a CR9 Monster is 30-40, and 10d6 does 35 on average, so he would only be giving quid pro quo with the option of halved damage for the attacker.

Additionally, acid resistance is not an uncommon thing among monsters of CR9 and up.

Powerful, yes. Gamebreaking, no.

If (at least) one of them is some kind of summoning-focused class, this should work out fine.

Leucrotta63 wrote:


I always use this calculator for the purpose of determining Carrying capacity. tm

(For some reason linking it in the text doesn't work...)

Also I second Khudzlin, your GM is wrong.

Did something like this recently.
Some hints:

- Ban Druids.
- Remember that food from especially good survival rolls might not be conservable, or your players will start saving it up for later and soon the food will be a non-issue.
- REALLY think about the enemies you use. Having them be really low on food goes completely out of the window, if they fight only a single boar, whos weight is stated with 200 pounds (half or more of which is edible meat, based on my research). One Cr 2 fight and they have 100 pounds of meat, which feeds a group of 4 medium characters for 25 days, if they conserve it correctly.
You should REALLY try to use either undead or plant enemies or something else that they cannot eat.
- homebrew rules for sleeping. I had my players roll wether they were able to sleep well, based on their fear of being eaten, their hunger, the cold etc.
The game assumes you can just go to sleep and sleep for 8 hours straight, but if you are out in the wild, with no bedroll, no roof, no proper weapons etc, you should have trouble finding good rest.

just a few things from the top of my head

Harmless is a game term. If there is no (harmless) behind the save entry of the spell/effect, it is not considered harmless as per the rules.
Be adwised though that, were I to GM for you, I would houserule it to not work for any beneficial spells.

It works as a dancing weapon. Dancing weapons attack on their own.
You spend one standard action to use the feather token, after this, starting right away in the round you used it in, it works completely on it's own.
With the stats of the weapon in relation to the price, this is hardly gamebreaking. If you had to direct it with a full action every round, it would cost MORE actions than attacking on your own. That would be pretty sucky for a 500 gp one-use-item. Also, there is no rules text, neither in the dancing property nor in the text for the feather token, that supports the claim of you having to invest actions.
The GM might have confused it with the spell spiritual weapon, which needs a move action to be redirected to a new target, but even that does not need a full action.

What about the Arrow magnets that have already been mentioned? I know wit Hp 5 and hardness 8 they will probably only absorb one bullet each, but that's only 600gp per missed bullet, might buy him some time, especially if the magnets are behind a wind wall and only get used up by those 70% of shots that make it through. Are there any minions around that don't have anything to do prior to the fight and can ready an action to deploy a bunch of them in front of the cleric?

Effectively you would have to price this thing like the lesser metamagic rod of quicken. It gives the ability to cast 2 spells in the same round, which is the same thing the quicken rod does. The lesser rod works with spells up to 3rd level, the same as the limit for potions. The fact that non-magic characters can use it too more than balances the fact that some spells are off limits for potions.

So sadly from a game balance standpoint, this thing would have to be limited to 3 uses per day and cost 35000 gp...

If you want to read on the positive sides of the chaos gods, I can greatly recommend the books for the Black Crusade RPG, they talk in quite some detail about how a character who isn't "evil" can be a follower of the ruinous powers.

I don't know an item like that either. I would also nor recommend allowing this in your game, because it's going to be about 10 minutes until somebody decides tu use it to gain infinite wealth.

If you are the GM, you could allow them to research a variant of alchemical allocation that works with poisons.

It could work along the lines that you would have to coat the weapon in the poison (or otherwise use it) immediately, of the spell is wasted. This way you have them spend a spell slot as comparison for saving the money and also circumvent the possibility of duplicating and then selling the poison.

First of all, thank you all for your quick replies.

@ ProfPotts:
The town is not the "insane amounts of extremely obscure laws" - LE but rather the "we have some simple laws and we abide by them without mercy"- LE. All dishonorable ruletwisting and loophole exploiting should come from the "prey" who is also an outsider and falls more into the first category.

Sending a representative is completely within the realm of possibility and something that I have in mind in case the bad guys can not pull out of a duel for some reason.

@ Veilgn:
Completely homebrew campaign, so no book.

@ MeanMutton:
A certain amount of these unnerving laws are already in place, but as mentioned above, most dishonorable acts should come from the "prey" and not the inhabitants of the city.

Also every law just flatout impedes and discriminates against all outsiders is also bad for the "prey", because they are'nt hobgoblins either.

Also such laws would be illogical, because the concept of the city is to be a reliable and dependable haven for trade in the overall chaos of the darklands, where traders can safely (within the boundaries of the law) go about their business, for the price of a hefty daily fee.

Hey everyone

Last session, my players surprisingly decided to skip a part of the adventure that would have lastet for about 3 Sessions and save it for later (something they could do, but which I totally didn't expect)
Now I face the problem that I prepped this 3 session chunk in advance, because I knew I don't have much time for prepwork later.

What I am faced with now is a combination of very little time to prep and only a vague Idea of what's going to happen next session.

The short version:

The players, who are in pursuit of another group, arrive in a lawful evil hobgoblin city where their "prey" is still restocking their resources and since the group is not very sublte, their "prey" will probably become aware of their presence.

Under the laws of the city they are not allowed to harm one another without engaging in a formal duel, which the "bad guys" will not agree to.

What I need now are ways in which the "bad guys" can trap the party in legal proceedings or otherwise make their life a nightmare, so they can gain a headstart when they leave the city again.

What I have so far are the options to somehow get stolen goods into their posession and then have them accused of thievery or to spread the rumor that they are spies/assassins.

I would really appreaciate any input on what else they could do and which "tools" I could put in place for the players to overcome this.

tl,dr: I need ways for a LE villain to pester and delay TN to CG PCs in a LE city.

I once had a villain who was actually a PC from a previous campaign. He was a tiefling who had been shunned by society first in cheliax, because tieflings are seen as a singn of weakness for their parents (a really cool piece of fluff in my eyes btw) and then in most other countries for the more obvius reasons.
The whole ordeal made him hate the concept of fate, wich lead to a "I have to become the most powerful so no one can decide my life." Once he had left behind most mortals, he realized that the gods still ruled his fate and that of everyone else.

So he went on and tried to create an atrificial starstone to simply make EVERYBODY into gods to even the playing field.

Since he figured that once he was a god, he could just fix everything he had broken, he followed this goal with ZERO caution or restraint.

Sadly the campaign never progressed to the point where the PCs would have been confronted with his reasoning.

As long as you end your turn in cover, you can remain in stealth, that is true.
I think the point of confusin here are the cover rules.

You are not automatically in cover, because you crouch next to a wall. Cover is determined relative to someone or something.

If you determine cover correctly, your players should have a much harder time always staying in stealth.

The thing you say under 4 is correct. As long as your players haven't made their perception rolls to know the position of all enemies, they have no way of knowing wether a certain position really is in cover from all enemies or not.

Also concerning the "just trying again" thing:

You make stealth rolls as part of movement. The moment you roll stealth, you already move.

So you can't just roll stealth until everybody rolls well and THEN move through the corridor. Everybody moves through the corridor and while they do so, stealth is rolled to find out how stealthy they are while doing so.

Of course they can walk back and try again, but how does that help them if the first roll was crappy and the enemies have already seen/heard them?

Good Option:

Distribute control over the summoned critters evenly among your players. That way, everybody gets something to do.

The only prerequisiite for that is that the stats are available to all players.

If the druid player complains about this, tell him that the other option is changing his character.

Seriously, I just handwave rolls based on the length of the Chase.
One roll to get started and one roll every time the conditions change to the worse (transition from soft to rocky ground, rain, Nightfall, whatever). Conditions improving obviously doesn't force a roll, and one to get "back on track" after a nights rest or any kind of major distraction like an encounter. If you feel like this is to easy, maybe make it a basic 4 checks/day with additional ones for unfavourable conditions.
Everything else just drives the Players and the GM insane. You're supposed to have fun, not sit around the table as laves to the rules, being extremely annoyed.

Also, I would give the ranger a penalty if he wants to track from horseback, like maybe 2 or 3 but then would allow him to use the horses half speed. If he does not want that penalty, he'll have to get off and use his own half speed.

it has a duration of 2 rounds at level 4, so it works for the round in which you cast it (from the moment you complete your standard action to cast it until it is your turn again) and THEN a second round, until it is your turn once again, at which point it ends directly BEFORE your turn.
So from my reading, it only damages at the beginning of the turn following the casting, bevause at the next trigger point "start of your turn" 2 rounds after casting, it is not in effect any more.

I once had a player who played a ranger with favoured enemy undead, who used to be a gravediggers apprentice when his village was overrun by the bbeg in a raid for fresh corpses. He hid until he was gone and the killed the remaining undead with his shovel.
Later he reshaped, reinforced and sharpened the shovel with the help of a blacksmith and I let him use the stats for a greataxe.

Lots of fun, he would go on the partys nerves endlessly by insisting on giving all slain enemies a proper burial, even those of large size and above.

You can cast as many as you want, but remember that you have to rediret them to a new target with a move action once the old target dies and you have only 2 move actions per turn (if you convert your standard to a move).

So either you plan tactically, so the enemies all die on different turns, or you will waste turns of your spell.

Also, they are only rounds/level, so keep in mind that your "flash mob" will not exist for long.

Other than that, you're golden.

First off, punctuation and proper formatting really helps to get people to answer you, because they don't have to read your post twice to figure out the question.

Second, nothing keeps you from using an evil spell anyway, as long as you're not a good druid, cleric or paladin. So even if casting this spell is an inherently evil act (which it shouldn't be in my eyes, but that is for your GM to decide), nothing keeps you from doing it.

By the rules, nothing says that the spell is modified in any way, so it keeps the [evil] descriptor.

Even IF casting spells with an evil descriptor is an evil act at your table, if you are playing a good character who doesn't sit on the brink of an alignment shift anyway, I think it woul be kind of a dick move to shift your alignment just because you draw some ki out of enemies whom you can totally punch to death without any alignment issues.

You say there are encampfments with siege weapons somewhere around?
Go take out one of these (those militia-guys seem to be a lot weaker) and then shoot the room in which the paladin etc hide to crap with the conquered siege weapons. (ideally they take damage from the roof collapse too)

Afterwards, attack them with the siege weapons from a distance that allows them only long range spells. Sooner or lateer, they will have to come to you which a) makes them leave the golem behind and b) has them walk through your fire for quite some time.

Also, send in some militia dudes with nerally zero hitpoints and a pleed effect, so the good guys will have to waste their healing to save them, only to then have the militia-guys die from a poison that you put in their system beforehand.

Send them in one by one, so the cleric can't just heal them all with a single channel.

If there is enough material around and you can reach both doors of the room, stack a lot of flammable stuff in front of it and ignite it, the heat and loss of oxygen will either take care of the cleric and paladin or force them to come out.

Concerning the feat:
"When the trap is activated, the effect is centered on whichever square the triggering creature first entered. If more than one square is entered simultaneously, choose at random."
So the trigger is expanded to 4 sqares, but the trap itself only affects the square that is entered first, after which the trap is triggered.

Concerning poison:
I don't think there are any rules for this, ask your GM.

Concerning the component:
I can not find any clarification on this, especially since it is in conflict with
"The ranger only needs simple materials to create the trap, such as a piece of cloth, a small amount of metal (such as a dagger, iron spike, or a few nails), a foot of rope or vine, and so on."

I would assume the scroll is only needed for the magical version, since EX abilities are not magical and I don't see any reason why one would need a magical component.

The question how in the world the ranger non-magically digs a 5 foot deep pit in just one round is best saved for another day...

Yes, except if the source says otherwise, like with magical knack.

In my games, a sorcerer could totally activate the wand without knowing what spell is stored inside, if the spell is on his spell list.
But honestly, who takes that gamble?

I would say one could base it off of the standard perception rules and take ten.
I would put a song either on the same or a bit below "soulds of battle", which is a -10. So conservatively speaking the volume of the song should warrant at least a -5.
So a creature could be affected by the song over a distance of (15+perception value)*10 ft.

Seems reasonable to me, since it's a limit that will not matter in most circumstances but it prevents extreme cheese.

For every point of negative modifyers based on the perception rules, like walls or background noise or whatever, the GM can just subtract 10 ft from the range.

Doesn't say anything about poison, so it isn't. It's the "strange material", whatever that may be, not some kind of poison ON the material.

I have always ruled yes, based on the fact that for example the sorcerer favoured class bonus gives free choice below the highest available level.

I don't have any rules quotes in this but I don't see any reason for disallowing it, neither crunch nor fluff wise.

Anything else aside, i would really advise you against using such a character at your table, except if everybody, and I mean EVERYBODY at the table really loves math and is good at it.
Do you really want to prep the hight and weight for every encounter? Do you want to have your player hold up the game for ages while he searches for the most beneficial equation?
PF changed power attack, because paople in 3.5 where using to much time in combat thinking about the best ratio to use it with and this is immensely more complicated...

Maybe explain what this class from FF does, so people who haven't played it have a chance to help too?

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

So since there is no action necessary to "switch" a dagger from melee to throwing your argument is that the rogue threatens and therefor flanks until the exact moment of the attack, when in the time the dagger takes to fly from the hand to the target, the flank is suddenly gone and so is the sneak attack?

It seems to be the case based on the whole "flanking only ever applies to melee attacks, period" ruling, but I find it very weird and would definitely houserule it at my table.

Throwing weapons are weird.

You don't threaten and therefore can't flank with a ranged weapon, certain feats nonwithstanding.
But since the dagger is a melee weapon that CAN be thrown, this course of action is perfectly valid and mechanically even a good idea, assuming the rogue has a higher dex than str and no weapon finesse. She would provoke an AoO for each of the attacks 'though.

For a visual, watch this video starting around 1:07.

@ GM1990:

While I stand with you on the whole "dont sloww down the game with too much rolling", it might be important to figure out how much havoc the ox can wreak before the PCs kill him, so actually knowing what to roll for that is important. Players might feel cheated if stuff is just described without any option to interfere.

Also, AlterAgo was asking for specific DCs, so "just make one up that feels right" might not be the right answer here.

Last: +1 to attack from higher ground only works on melee, there is no bonus for ranged attacks.

Disclaimer: All my answers are based on using the official paizo perception modifyers for distance, which understandably, many people find to be stupid. (there are a ton of threads on the topic) In my own games I usually decrease the range penalty to +1 for every 20 ft of distance, instead of +1/10ft.

1a: If they are just getting ready, not moving heavy stones and such, the DC would be the bandits stealth roll +1 per 10 ft of distance. If they are still moving heavy stones around, I would consider giving the bandits a heavy (3-5) circumstance penalty on the stealth.

1b: for the falling rocks, you could just use as many of these traps here as you see fit, without the chance of a disable device roll of course.
The CR seems to more or less fit the APL, you can alwyas raise the Attack and/or damage a little, if you want them to be more dangerous.

I would also advise you to have the bandits trigger a bigger avalanche on the path in front of the group (behind the bull) so they can't just keep moving with the carts.

1c: Shooting from higher ground gives no bonuses to hit (as opposed to melee attacks from above) but the cover you mention should either be normal cover (+4ac, +2ref), if they use actual cover in addition to their elevated position or partial cover (+2ac +1 ref) if it's only the cover of their elevated position. Remember that whatever cover the Bandits get for high ground will also be available to the PCs, if the decide to press themselves up against the side of the mountain.

2a/b: Just a trample on the guards, yes. He doesn't want to attack them he just wants to keep running and they are in his way.

2c: since the drag/push weight of your ox is 9000 pounds, i think it would be reasonable to have it make an overrun, although i don't know what kind of CMD you would want to give to the cart. Maybe just an opposed strength check with the pony, giving the pony a bonus for the weight of the cart? If the ponies are not combat trained, remember that the drivers will have to make handle animal checks to keep them from panicking though.

2d: If the bandits are actually running behind the ox, they are not using stealth and therefore the DC should be 0 + 1 per 10 ft distance. I would just handwave that roll and have the PCs auto-succeed.
If the bandits are actually using stealth, which I would allow them to do on a rocky road with a charging ox as "cover", the same rules as in 1a apply.

3: How do those guys quickly run away? is there another path below the one the PCs are on? Why would the bandits plan to have stuff go over the side and why would they plan on running away right from the start? Do they expect to lose the fight? If yes, why do they attack?

3a: Same as before, if they use stealth (remember, reduced movement speed) stealth roll + distance, with a +5 circumstance bonus because the PCs are distracted. (per the rules, this would actually be a penalty for the PCs, but it's easyer to calculate this way around and the result is the same)
This is IF the PCs can even see the lower bandits. I would run it so that the pcs can't spot them as long as they are not in the squares on the edge of the path, and once they are, give them a roll with the +5

3b: picking up an Item is normally a move action, of which everybody gets 2 per round, so per RAW, the bandits would loot one clearly visible item from corpses or carts to their "inventory" every 3 seconds and spend the other move action of the round storing it on their person. If they need to open containers or otherwise have restricted access, make that process slower, if they have things like big sacks in which they can just drop the loot instead of storing it (free action), make it 2 items per round.

If the fight doesn't last exceptionally long, don't expect those guys to get away with much. I would actually advise you to have the bandits use those people in the attack too and then expect to just loot afterwards, except if the looters are not fit for combat.

4: If the flying observer doesn't a) have hide in plain sight or b) is flying high enough to use clouds as cover, he doesn't get to make stealth checks while flying up there, so the DC would be once again 0 + distance. (per the rules, the size of the observer does not come into play here, only if he makes a stealth check. Since I find it idiotic that a gargantuan dragon chilling by the lake would be spotted exaclty as easily as the pixie besides him, as long as non of both try to use stealth, I usually include the size modifyers to stealth in a roll like this too, which would be a +4 for the PCs in this case. This is a houserule 'though)
Since the rules only give a DC to "notice a visible creature" which is only seeing that there is SOMETHING, I would put the DC to realize it is not a bird a little higher, maybe 2 or 3 points, since it should be pretty obious that the shape of the observer is not birdlike (no wings)

Since those rules apply to the observer too , I would have him keep a distance that allows him to see the caravan based on distance modifyers. If he only occasionally wants to check in on them and the path they are going to take is relatively clear, have him keep a distance that allows him to make the check to spot them on something like a 18 (distance in ft = (18 + perception modifyer of the observer)*10, or *20 if you use my houserule from the initial disclaimer). If he wants to keep them in good view, put him on a distance that allows him to take 10 on his perception check.

If you use my houserule that includes the size penalties into normal spot checks, you of course have to apply it to the caravan too, granting the observer a pretty big bonus, since a caravan made of multiple carts including ponies and the PCs should probably be gargantuan (+12 on the check to notice it)

Have fun with your session and remember: don't spend too much time in the session claculating DCs, rather guesstimate them on the fly, the average players fun will be diminished much more by a 2 minute pause in combat to calculate stuff than by a perception DC that was 2 or 3 points off.

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I try to avoid Save or die and save or suck spells like dominate and word of death and the like, as long as the players didn't at least have the chance to find out what they would be facing.
Nothing less fun than losing a character to a single failed save.

Yes, DM_Blake, that is one of the consequences of this. But luckily (most of) the elven parents tend have a lot more patience too. When you have the time to spend a year contemplating a poem, that puts things into perspective.
At the same time they are not uber-wise mary sues. They tend to get confused with the shortlived races and their quickness in everything and make really bad improvisers.
My elves have a bit of an LotR-Ent-vibe to them, pondering every decision for days and weeks.
Luckily I have never had a player who wanted to play a full elven character, because that would probably create problems with the other PCs.

In my golarion, and I think this is even canon, their Minds just work differently, they mature way more slowly, their whole society has no emphasis on teaching things quickly.

Kind of like a mouse is "grown up" way faster than a human.

Also the medium elementals you get with SM4 is CR 3 and the aerial servant is CR 11, how would this ever be balanced?

The CR equivalent of the aeerial servant would be the Elder elemental, which is summoned via SM8. At that point, it would be something you could ask your GM to houserule, but by RAW it still doesn't work.

You could get Spectral Hand as a x times per day-item or as a wand, but that only works on medium range and I assume she would be further away.

The unchained rogue is definitely better in combat, but still not good enough to be game breaking. Since he's probably kind of frustrated with the combat capabilities of his current rogue, by all means, let him do it.

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