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KainPen's page

1,011 posts. Alias of Joshua Matherne.


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Aelryinth wrote:

YOu can't dispel a wall of force, either. You can only destroy it. It's one of the things that stay around even in an AM shell.

And there was no upper limit to AC in 2e, only 'highest published'. Holy Sardior, someone remembered the gem dragons?!

We got a drow fighter/cleric in the Vault of the Drow down to -20 AC with spells without too much trouble. Shocked my brother when his 15th level dwarf with the dwarven thrower kept missing her!


Actual there was a limit in 2nd edition for PC on page 73 of (black DMG) under the definition of AC. the limit for pc was -10, this is also reflected in every 2nd edition video game that was ever created. While you could find enough gear to get to a -20. The games did not allow per those rules. There were only a few exception and I think almost all of them where All Dragons ages 11+ with the best AC possible in game was age 12 gold dragon, Shadow Dragon and Amethysts Dragons all had -12 AC, Red had -11 at age 12. I want to say there was only one non-dragon monster that had a -12, that was not in a deity or demi god, but I can't remember what it was.

I uselessly ask my players if they want to RP a section or just roll. It they RP it, what ever the out come of the RP is the outcome. I may give them a roll after if it was really bad, to try and sway it a better direction. If they choose to roll, what ever the out come is on the dice determines success, no second chances and I make the dialog for them.

Grace divine spell is swift action spell available to clerics, Paladins

Doesn't the ultimate campaign have rules for family and relationship? and perk or draw back that come with those. I don't have my books to check but i remember seeing actual pathfinder rules for npc relationship with pc. they where mostly minor story effects but there is stuff out there. I just can't remember the book.

not sure what Kazaan is talking about feat action, there is no such thing. But he is correct you can't combine the two. Awesome blow is a specific combat maneuver that take a standard action like, over run and grapple. It can't be used in place of an attack like sunder, trip and disarm. Which they do allow you to use vital strike with it but has no effect expect with sunder.

PC got captured in that book? How? I don't even remember seeing that as a possible out come in the AP expect in book 1. The PC are supposed to being doing the capturing, not the other way around. They are evil honestly they let him Die, he is weak link. if you want to do rescue, I would just do and evil org check make them spend two of their actions, Make ruthless or surviablity checks with moderate DC of 15.

edit: their contract prevents the from feuding with each other, but does not mean they have to save him. I won't change the SP but reduce surviablity score of Organization. Say 2 or 3 points.

After they have the horn, they really should not even be going to town at all, and just defending the horn. There is no need to ever go to town you just send the minions and cohorts, and that what the old organization chapter in the back of the book is for. Also if they made friends with baron at the start, he can get them out automatically, unless they are caught in the act of preforming a murder.

looks to be that way, option is to use it as per PFS FAQ if you are playing with that, if not make the call as GM or ask GM for ruling since the hardness rules say GM have choices over how element damage effect objects with hardness

Gisher wrote:
lemeres wrote:
Hayato Ken wrote:

-Play an unchained rogue, get weapon finesse and DEX to damage on daggers.

-Be a halfling.
-River Rat Trait for +1 damage.
-Use Two-Weapon Fighting with deific obedience Pharasma.
-Dirty Fighting, Improved dirty Trick and greater dirty trick are great ways to get sneak attack with blinding foes. Vexing dodger archetype gets improved dirty trick as a bonus feat. If you want to multiclass, take 5 levels of unchained barbarian untamed rager archetype, gets greater dirty trick at level 5 and unchained rage works with weapon finesse.
-Deft palm and underhanded rogue tricks work great either with improved initiative and surprising combatant or betrayer feats.

I would recommend the vexing dodger archetype over the knife master.
Knife Master has the d8 on sneak attack, but vexing dodger gives you more opportunity for sneak attack and you get several advantages versus foes larger than you, which are most if you´re a halfling.
With a certain new racial trait you can also hide behind your medium sized party members.

And I thought you were suggesting hafling for risky striker.

Which is a great idea. Cause it gives you power attack like damage bonuses against anything big and beefy, and all at the cost of 1 AC.

The AC penalty for Risky Striker now increases with your BAB so it's not quite as good as it used to be.

I never noticed that feat, Does it work with power attack looks like it does. I have not played halfling barbarian since 3.5. might be a good mix with invulnerable rager archtype.

I never even noticed they had hardness, I always treated it DR as animated objects. I considers them a creature. Not much of a difference in the way they function, only the energy damage part. I think it would be clear and easier to treat them as creatures and just give them DR and Resistance and vulnerabilities per each creature, instead of hardness which is completely open ended because the GM sets vulnerability rules. But I will take note of it now and surprise my players with it. Considering I already mapped out all the immunities, vulnerabilities, based on materials, in my house rules. They will be surprised with Acid does not work Glass Statue.

"Some energy types might be particularly effective against certain objects, subject to GM discretion."

This is why you use DR for creatures, to avoid the smashing/sundering rules which are different and allow GM to decide how energy does damage. If a robot has hardness listed instead of DR it must be a typo, unless robots are not creatures in which case they should be sunders are smashed then use those rules. which means the energy damage is effective by hardness however GM says they do ignore, half, whole or double ect.

_Ozy_ wrote:
KainPen wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:

This has been brought up before with some related input from the devs:




and I'll repeat the quote:


James Jacobs (Creative Director) wrote:

The rules for activating and unactivating a weapon's energy damage is not in the game to force users of those weapons to spend an extra action to get ready above the action of drawing a weapon. The rules are mostly there for the cases where you want to turn OFF the effect, such as if you're entering an encounter where having visibly magic weapons might be a disadvantage.
Otherwise, the game assumes that the energy damage effect is left on all the time. It's not like those weapons will run out of power if they're left on all the time, after all.

unfortunately James is not a rules guy or part of the design team. he is the creative director. He the guys that come up with idea on how stuff should be or the guy that make the flavor. He does a great job. but this is rule forum and rule question. He is stating what he think the intent of said items should be, not what the rules say they are supposed to due. Reading the rules it tell use they are not active until you activate them. I actual saw a post in another thread about the recent FAQ about being nauseated and swift and free actions. where Mark a member of design team said they can give unofficial suggestion but do not like to anymore because it cause confusion like this. If I remember correctly, in a post a while back said it should be one way. The FAQ then recently rule against him.

Some one quoted his original answer in the FAQ thread as an official answer. he had to come back and correct that saying the only official answers that should be recognized are the ones that come from the actual pathfinder design team account.

So you have to go with


by the fact that it is command word activation, but definition of

activation means

Also found in: Thesaurus, Medical, Legal, Acronyms, Encyclopedia, Wikipedia.
ac·ti·vate (ăk′tə-vāt′)
tr.v. ac·ti·vat·ed, ac·ti·vat·ing, ac·ti·vates
1. To set in motion; make active or more active."

meaning you have to speak the command word to Set in motion or make active. Thus before command word is spoke it is inactive. thus default is off.

_Ozy_ wrote:

This has been brought up before with some related input from the devs:




and I'll repeat the quote:


James Jacobs (Creative Director) wrote:

The rules for activating and unactivating a weapon's energy damage is not in the game to force users of those weapons to spend an extra action to get ready above the action of drawing a weapon. The rules are mostly there for the cases where you want to turn OFF the effect, such as if you're entering an encounter where having visibly magic weapons might be a disadvantage.
Otherwise, the game assumes that the energy damage effect is left on all the time. It's not like those weapons will run out of power if they're left on all the time, after all.

unfortunately James is not a rules guy or part of the design team. he is the creative director. He the guys that come up with idea on how stuff should be or the guy that make the flavor. He does a great job. but this is rule forum and rule question. He is stating what he think the intent of said items should be, not what the rules say they are supposed to due. Reading the rules it tell use they are not active until you activate them. I actual saw a post in another thread about the recent FAQ about being nauseated and swift and free actions. where Mark a member of design team said they can give unofficial suggestion but do not like to anymore because it cause confusion like this. If I remember correctly, in a post a while back said it should be one way. The FAQ then recently rule against him.

Some one quoted his original answer in the FAQ thread as an official answer. he had to come back and correct that saying the only official answers that should be recognized are the ones that come from the actual pathfinder design team account.

So you have to go with what the rules currently say other wise it is house rule. The rule state the magus can add the ability then to see the rules about special properties. those rule then state it a command word activation, which those rules tell you it is a standard action to activate. I actual believe those things requiring standard action is intentional to add a bit of balance and make fights last longer and make them more challenging.

yeah they can add two in a single round but all of those ability listed as options. But it also take an action to activate. because the txt says see weapon ability rules. so it just mean adding it is a swift action, not actual making the ability activate. only the burst ability auto activate on critical and the passive ability like keen auto activate. so the 1d6 damage abilities are bad choices, better to pick keen, speed all the passive options or just increasing the bonus.

what book is Haunts in? I ask because of
they don't actual list the source but their txt says

"On the surprise round in which a haunt manifests, positive energy applied to the haunt (via channeled energy, cure spells, and the like) can damage the haunt’s hit points "

maybe there was and update to the txt of that box via errata

cure light wounds is positive energy

I know their txt is correct there for that. and it says you channel positive energy, Dampiers.

@ Diego Rossi read the whole thing, 1st sentence is telling at start of battle is the only time you make a check. Sentence two is telling you initiative check is any ability score check based on dex thus it is effected by thing that effect your dex score. Sentence 3 tell you how to do the math and preform the check. sentience 4 the 1st part you have bolded out tell you how to to determine order. stop end of rule or statement. the 4th sentence, new rule or statement which you only have the 1st part bolded tells you that every round after the 1st you follow that same order with 1 exception the part in () the character choose to change their initiative via the special actions. After the 1st round the numbers don't matter because there is only one way to change your initiative via the special actions delay or ready. This is all I am going to say on it as it belong in a separate thread.

1 covered

2 we need to know the ability if it is a Spell like ability then yes it will require a standard action. but i do find it funny the "a bonus for 3 rds bit" I know they have this all over the books with ability with bonus to init for number of rd, but the hard rules are once initiative is roll it is set in stone, the number hit the trash can, they mean nothing out side that 1 roll. It does not change while in play unless special actions are taken such as delay or reading. so really he has that bonus for the entire combat.

think everyone covered number 3 pretty good, but I want to Clarify, why Fernn said it takes around 3 rounds to do, it is because activating flaming or frost is a command word per each of these ability action take up a stranded action. So it can be done the fastest is 2 rounds. 1rd swift action add both frost and flame abilities to the weapons, standard action to activate one of them so they they do the d6 fire or frost ect.
on rd 2 you can spend another stander action to activate the other adding that 2nd d6. so 3rd before you can attack and get the benefit. this is an outside, just before combat buff.

4 covered

5 covered

it is exactly as it says, you get +1 skill rank for every level you are.
this comes after any penalty thou. so you are a Human fighter level 1 with 6 int and it is your favored class. fighter gets 2+int mod skill points per level, minimum of 1. an int 6 mod i think is -2
So you get the minimum of 1 skill point, +1 from being human/skilled and you choose your favored class bonus as a skill point you get 3 skill ranks at level 1

same situation but the fighter has int of 14
he gets 2+int mod of +2 = 4 then +1 from skilled and +1 from favored class = 6 skill ranks to use at level 1

that again is your GM call only he can answer it, you are not going to find any official ruling on this, because there is none. all the rules state is you can retraining a class ability, bloodlines is one of you new class ability from archtype, just as a Scorc can retrain it. see their section of retraining on what must be done to retrain bloodline. The rules don't get into the level of detail you are looking for they just say

"less stated otherwise, retraining costs gp equal to 10 × your level × the number of days required to retrain. This is normally paid in full at the start of the retraining period, but the GM might allow you to divide these payments over multiple days. At the GM's discretion, this training cost could be up to 50% higher or lower, depending on situational factors within the settlement—availability of trainers, local economy, cost of materials, and so on.

Some retraining options require you to work with a trainer. If no suitable trainer is available, the GM might allow you to retrain yourself by spending twice the normal time. Even if you train yourself, you must still pay the cost for training (though you don't double the cost as you do the time). Any option that requires a trainer also requires some kind of training facility for that activity."

basically your GM decide if you need a trainer or not and what type of trainer you need. IT could be another Magus, a Sorcerers or blood rager could do it, a expert NPC class that has knowledge bloodlines could teach you out a of book. This level of detail is out side of the rules and is left that way for gm to decide and for good reason. Some GM like to RP more then others, some just don't give a crap and just say pay the down time and cost, + 50% more because your in a town not a city because they don't want that level of detail in down time because it slows down their game.

ask your GM, retraining is optional rule in the Ul Camp book. your GM may not even allow retraining. Some gm's require to find some one of higher level to teach you, others do not. I believe the rules say you can do it your self but it take longer to do, thus costing more money.

Amazing Tools of Manufacture and Craft wand or wood worker would work well with allowing you to make a slew of wands a lot faster.

get a blink back belt instead of return on the star/cross, with quick draw feat can throw your cross more then once a round.

edit: this is a nerco thread!!! why did you bump to nerco so evil!

the amulet is still better choice magic fang does not let you by bypass all the other DRs, other then magic, meaning you still have to get amulet of mighty fist or +5 weapon at some point.

only if he has improved invisibility, invisible negates as soon as you make an attack. as others stated they would rule that the shield bash/bullrush is caused by the single attack so the CMD would be denined his dex also. but any attacks after that including AOO the target would have use of their dex. unless the attacker is under improved invisibility or similar effect.

aoo happen out side of normal time frame of attacks but still with in a time frame while the bullrush seems one attack. Same thing applies to sneak attack and invisibility you only get it on the 1st attack

actual a class can have more then 20 levels see the beyond 20 rule in core rule book, it even tells how to figure out. you just don't get anything new, this is why multi class is suggested as easier option, you still get new things. even multiclass is not a good option because all the new things your get are actual old things that are more then likely not going to be useful at that level of play any way.

"Experience Points

To gain a level beyond 20th, a character must double the experience points needed to achieve the previous level. Thus, assuming the medium XP progression, a 20th-level character needs 2,100,000 XP to become 21st level, since he needed 1,050,000 XP to reach 20th level from 19th. He'd then need 4,200,000 XP to reach 22nd level, 8,400,000 XP to reach 23rd, and so on.

Scaling Powers

Hit dice, base attack bonuses, and saving throws continue to increase at the same rate beyond 20th level, as appropriate for the class in question. Note that no character can have more than 4 attacks based on its base attack bonus. Note also that, before long, the difference between good saving throws and poor saving throws becomes awkwardly large—the further you get from 20th level, the more noticeable this difference grows, and for high-level characters, bolstering their poor saving throws should become increasingly important. Class abilities that have a set, increasing rate, such as a barbarian's damage reduction, a fighter's bonus feats and weapon training, a paladin's smite evil, or a rogue's sneak attack continue to progress at the appropriate rate.


A spellcaster's caster level continues to increase by one for each level beyond 20th level. Every odd-numbered level, a spellcaster gains access to a new level of spell one above his previous maximum level, gaining one spell slot in that new level. These spell slots can be used to prepare or cast spells adjusted by metamagic feats or any known spell of lower levels. Every even-numbered level, a spellcaster gains additional spell slots equal to the highest level spell he can currently cast. He can split these new slots any way he wants among the slots he currently has access to.

For example, a 21st-level wizard gains a single 10th-level spell slot, in which he can prepare any spell of level 1st through 9th, or in which he can prepare a metamagic spell that results in an effective spell level of 10 (such as extended summon monster IX, or quickened disintegrate). At 22nd level he gains 10 spell-levels' worth of new spell slots, and can gain 10 1st-level spells per day, two 5th-level spells per day, one 7th-level and one 3rd-level spell per day, or one more 10th-level spell per day. At 23rd level, he gains a single 11th-level spell slot, and so on.

Spellcasters who have a limited number of spells known (such as bards and sorcerers) can opt out of the benefits they gain (either a new level of spells or a number of spell slots) for that level and in exchange learn two more spells of any level they can currently cast.

You might want to further adjust the rate of spell level gain for classes (like paladins and rangers) who gain spells more slowly than more dedicated spellcaster classes."

best option and maybe you should suggest to gm is use 20 level and the mythic stuff after, it plays as little nicer with the system as a whole.

Ditto on what Imbicatus said, permanence is really only good if you get from a 20 level caster scroll. Amulet of Mighty fist is the way to go.

let him die lesson learned,the player actual gains xp points lol, I think you are risking much send your familiar in there. your basically voluntarily choosing to fail the cmd check to get your self swallowed, while you could get out of the situation easy by reactivating freedom of movement it going to take you two or more rounds to get out per the shallow hole rules. "If the swallowed creature escapes the grapple, success puts it back in the attacker’s mouth, where it may be bitten or swallowed again." going to take meaning you going to take damage 2 times once while entering taking crushing damaging, this would be DC on concentration check so best option is a wand so 1d8+1. ending round 1 then in round 2 you will have use freedom movement to break the grapple. this put you in the mouth, that is your standard action you are still considered grappled for the time being. you have move action left but really can't do anything with that while grappled. where the creature turn will automatically fail grapple check to maintain vs you, thus free you from it's mouth but it can just bite you and BAM almost dead familiar if not dead.

this is based on if the GM lets you get away with failing the grapple check for being swallowed. if not that means you have to deactivate freedom of movement that i think is standard action, another standers action to reactivate it. that means 2 rounds of auto damage on you.

He is dead anyway unless your tigers full attack can get you them out before worms next turn. you already did your party in trying to save him, by using the tiger. no point in putting anyone else at risk, best bet it to focus on killing it as fast as possible. Also remember your tiger is considered grappled inside the gullet of the worm. So it can use it rake attacks also so you have 5 attacks all that do slashing damage, good chance of getting out and doing a lot of damage. your tiger could end up killing the creature inside out, it choose the wrong creature to try and eat. lol much like that picture of giant snake that ate a porcupine.

yeah, even though they are in the FAQ, they are still not clearly spelled out and are confusing. They are heavily implied, that hands are metaphysical. it a rules that require you to sift through all the FAQ on it. you have to combine all the FAQ to come up with the answer. The one about lances and i think power attack, the ones on bastard swords, the one about twf with great sword and armor spikes, ect. Thus why people call it an unwritten rule, and they are still cause of much debate, I know there was thread not that long about duel wielding lance, while mounted.

lol the rule about everyone in pathfinder world being ambidextrous is another one of the rules that is unwritten, but it take interpretative reading of the FAQ on using several weapons and two weapon fighting to realize this is actual a rule.

This why see your GM is best answer to give on anything like this, and your safest bet assuming your GM reads these boards and FAQs is going rule that you can't duel wield two handed weapons via arms.

It really not best thing to do you are going to be taking what a -6 to all your attacks while twf. So I don't see anything game breaking about it. your not going to hit enough for the extra damage to really even be effective, when compared to a two handed fighter archetype. I don't get while people get all crazy about not allowing it.

if you really want to use get away with use 2 large swords save up for two sunblades, they count as both bastard sword and short sword. you could wield two of those at only -2 from twf, you could even make a large one and actual and still use it 1 handed.

because the Metaphysical rules are written, via FAQS, but no where in 6 prints of core rule book have they actual been printed. So if you never look at the FAQs you never know these rules exist.

Yes the two handed weapon rules prevent you from using stuff in one hand with an out exception.

The Titan Mauler has ability that will let you use normal two handed weapon in 1 hand as a 1 handed weapon. Not sure about the titan fighter, some weapons will do it on their own when a feat is taken, such as bastard sword, dwarven war ax, don dugar ect. but they all state it function as a one handed weapon as I point out being the nature of the whole issue. thus the conflicting FAQ about using a Lance 1 handed while mounted getting 1.5 str and Titan Mauler only getting x1 str mod when wielding 1 handed. as i stated earlier the game treats "as a one handed weapon" and "wield in one hand" are two different things.

I think they final fixed titan mauler and titan fighter archetypes to allow you to use large two handed weapon with two handed.

no rules the actual hands, only metaphysical ones, because those are the only ones that actually matter to the rules. Just talk to your GM about it. If it is for PFS you have to go with the metaphysical rules.

they stick to the metaphysical ones because now the question is what kind of damage do you do with a two-handed weapon in the off hand. 1.5 str damage or .5 str damage. it stop that question from even happening.

they go out of the way to make sure only in extreme or specifically called out ways can get a person get x2 ability score to damage.

that what it really is all about.

the wording here is hands that is the problem lord, the Kasatha call out that the other arms are also treated as off handed. thus giving them additional number of invisible hands. there is an unwritten rule on handiness that is only found in FAQ as being a thing. I think it is stupid also, and just cause more confusion then what it is worth. much like "as a one handed weapon" and "wield in one hand" are two different things. which also goes back to what you are point out in the ves arms. wielding is different from having extra hands. the number of arms you have does not matter only invisible number of handed matter.

This is why I tell the OP to talk to his GM about it. GM may think it is stupid just like me and house rule the invisible hand rules out. and treat the number of arms/limb/ect as your number of hands. which makes a lot more sense.

I say the rouge just cut his way out, sure he has a dagger, cure light not going to be enough to mitigate the damage. is't it automatic sneak attack since the inside has no dex. not to mention if their is a dire tiger in there why has it not cut it self out yet, slashing around in there with all it's natural attacks. tiger could be out with a single bite attack, not to mention it out in 1 full round of attacks for sure then the worm can't eat nothing for a while.

some say you can't even two weapon fight with two-handed weapons, because the arms does not actual increase the number of invisible hands or offhand or handiness effort what ever you want to call the unwritten rule. it the same one that does not allow you to use two handed weapons and armor spiked ect. once you use a two handed weapon that is it no extra attacks expect from haste. If the arms actual gave you extra attacks you could multi-weapon fight and use two two-handed weapons. I am going to say see your GM for a ruling before hand. if this is for PFS does not matter as you can't get multi-weapon fighting anyway.

edit: ninja by SlimGauge

Lord Twich has good example here to with Iron Gods AP, If he did not edit the 1st 3 books it would have been a lot harder. but after 3 he had to do no more work, and the challenge fell about right.

I am running way of the wicked my self now, and It not your normal AP it calls out for the PC to be super strong, 25 point buy, 2 extra skill points a level, Also larger area and battle, and a PC may have to stall or fight a whole party on his own depending on what is going on. It seem to be made to actual have a party split from time to time. It was kind of made for 5 to 6 players, It also a 3rd party AP does does not follow the normal Pathfinder standards.

The PCs also have control of when they encounter things for the most part and in the times they don't it 1 to 2 encounters a day, meaning they are more then likely all healed up and ready to go. It also easy for them to find out what is coming since most of the encounters actual coming to them, instead of them going to the encounters. I would recommend GMing it it you want to make no adjustments to an adventure.

Lord how was the xp flow with 5 to 6 players in way of the wicked? was it enough to level them to the point they need to be at? I opted out of xp for it and it is flowing really smoothly for me, no adjust meant at all.

based on a hellhounds ability scores I go with fighter, it is really your only option. Barb would be better choice, but Hell hounds are LE, so they can't be barb even if GM allowed it to be NE, it no longer matches your Alignment so you take a hit on leader score you already taking a -2 from having a familiar an another -1 could make you not even qualify for the cohort. They have poor mental scores even getting started. PC levels on monster bonus "receive +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, and –2 adjustments to their ability scores" even if you add the +4 to mental stats your at low stuff, then you are dropping your physical stats also. which is bad for ranger. your hell hound is already 3 levels weaker then normal cohort being 4 hit dice, instead of 7. so you are going to need to increase it's hp and ability to do damage and feat count. other wise it survivability is low in level 10 camp. So you want high hit dice (since cohorts only get the average of the dice.), something that does not worry about skill points, because hell hounds are stupid and something that going to make up for missing two feat. only a fighter can do that.

ability score plan would be this increase con when it gets to 8 hit dice the str at 12 and dex at 16

Str 13+4=17, Dex 13+2=15, Con 15+4=19, Int 6, Wis 10+2=12, Cha 6-2=4

the con is going to give it more hp and rise the DC of breath weapon.

my 5th hit dice feat would which is level 1 fighter would be toughness

my fighter bonus feat would be weapon focus
when you hit level 2 fighter I would take eldrich claws as bonus feat gets dr issue of silver and magic out the way. it will save you from having to get amulet of might fist for it.

you can full armor the hell hound to let run around in full plate. to increase it's AC

it only has bite attack so it does 1.5 str and power attack damage, vital strike is useful also since it only gets 1 attack any way. just other things to think about.

well bleeding arrow are bad example to use as they are from 3.5 not pathfinder rule set. you need to adjust them to the rule set, using the the same wording as other bleeding effects like wounding weapons. Constructs and plant can be critically hit now.

there are only a few things immune to critical hits, and that is incorporeal, elemental, and ooze and amorphous creatures.

edit: I wish they would have updated them and put them in ultimate EQ but never did.

I am working on one my self but it is not ready for a public release still has a lot of bugs when calculating to hit when I try to add it power attack it freaks out. I often have to untype and retype a number to get it to fix it self. I got unchained one also that uses both consolidated skills and background skills for my home game, but for some reason on that the max dex will freak out on it. dispite the coding for that section being the exact same as the other sheet, but this one does not have any issues with the hit and power attack. I can email either one. Both are based off of Nercos and Abellius sheets with some teaks that allow for changing which bonus go were, like lunar oracle replacing dex for reflex saves and dex. If you don't want my strange little bugs in the sheet, I would check out their sheets. I know one of them I can't remember which one, auto calculates bonus spell from high ability scores. I was try to make an adjustment to that to replicate a fake increase such a teifling Fiendish Sorcery ability. and setup I can't even tell in their coding, where the data is coming from and when I contact them about it they could not even remember how they did it either. That is the only part of their original sheet left it mine it. I would recommend their sheets a lot less bugs then mine but auto calculates stuff less then mine.

you can google either one of their names and pathfinder sheet and you can find downloads to it.

I know their are others out their but I think they are mostly core only. It take a lot of time and money to program all that information, essplically as rules system grow. But even the pay ones get stuff wrong or leave stuff out. your best best it to find an auto fill character sheet and use the PSRD or similar website to build your character. so you don't have to flip through books

kewl that will help out tons.

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Silver Surfer wrote:

Clerics are the standout for me..... the fundamental design is just so BLAH!

With the advent of Warpriests and Inquisitors, there really is no need for a cleric to remain a D8 holds the entire class back IMO

This why i was against the warpriest even coming into existence it did not fill any new roles. it just a cleric with less spell casting. it could have easily been just some kind of archtype. But in reality it the Cleric that is all screwed up it just did not convert over well from 2 edition it got way to buffed moving to 3rd edition. When it should have not existed any more and some kind of priest class full casting divine class should have been made instead, to be opposite the wizard, or the cleric should have been built the way the war priest is now. But that cat is already out the bag most people are not going to play a full casting class with d6 hp, less armor with the same spell list as the cleric. why do that when you get more hp better saves same spell medium armor decent attacks, ect. ect. ect. any change to the cleric out side a complete core rule change would see as nerf and complained about to no end.

I am quoting my self from another thread reply to someone said removing heavy armor pro from cleric where was a mistake.

"Ad&d and 2nd edition it made sense for cleric to have heavy armor. there was no spontaneous casting, spell to increase your combat ability where limited. Also your spells stopped at level 7 not 9. also no concentration so if you were hit while casting a spell you lost it so you need the ac to make sure you could keep the healer alive and keep him healing. they also had the 2nd fastest level up progression. it was need for survival of the group. if there was no cleric the group was dead. The change between old edition and 3.x and now, made individual survival possible. I actual been in several game with no divine casters and all are were fun and cleric was never needed. So the cleric could not be so confined to the healer only role. That was a very good thing, but turn the cleric in to a monster, they took away all his weakness from back then and gave him nothing but power. High AC, Domain powers, 2 more levels of spells(this was never needed), concentration (much need improvement), on demand casting for healing spells(need improvement but the class should have been spontaneous as whole and done away with prepared spells make more sense your pray to your god for a spell to help you as you need it.) and now on demand uninterruptable healing or AOE attack depending on alignment with a feat you can get both. Decent weapon selection, good attack bonus. No spell failure chance ever. The cleric is a monster of a class."

eakratz wrote:

I don't think fighter needs an unchained version so much as an errata. Weapon masters handbook definitely helped, but I think that all fighter really needs is 4 skill points per level, good will save, and for Weapon Training to begin at first level. Pretty much every full bab class has some kind of damage and/or hit boosting feature at 1st level. Fighters need this too.

Okay, maybe a new unchained write up may help. Alternate to good will save could be improving bravery similar as to how trapsense was improved to danger sense.

I already did this in my home brew games with the skill points.I adjusted all The good will save is kind of a bad choice I found, because then no one has bad will saves really and fighter become too good of option to just dip into. I made my own ability called Resilience that they get at level 8 for fighters and Rogue it grants +3 Competence bonus to one of their poor saves of their choice. this way some one actually has to invest in the class to get the bonus. Also the bonus does not stack with other comp bonus so it not too powerful.

While I really like the idea of weapon training at level 1 again same problem it does not really help the fighter, it just make the fighter a great class to dip into. get a bonus feat two good saves and weapon training. maybe weapon training you be at level 2 or 4 and and advance as little different.

I also picked up another home brew rule on these boards that i really like for fighters was a Career Choice or stylized skill training. the Career give you 2 additional class skill based on what you picked. The board person had it set at level 1 but I decided level 2 was better point to pick that up to prevent to many quick pick ups for a one level dip.

This is why the unchained rogue dex damage is not until level 3 so if you want to get dex to damage you actual have to invest in the class.

maybe something like my resilience with a scaling effect can be put in at level 5 and weapon training can be moved further down that way level 5 is not a dead level for unchained fighter.

Slayer also benefits from these stats

yes and no depends on status of said item is it just broken, or destroyed. if broken 1 hp or more the item make whole can repair it, level does not matter. if 0 or lower destroyed then you need to meet the level requirement per which version of the spell.

+4 armor is rather hard to destroy lots of hardness + lots of hp. it gets +10hp per + and +2 hardness per + so your looking at 40hp above normal and hardness of 8 more then normal.

The AP are already made for 4 players that will be a little bit above normal wealth by level or 5 players on fast progression with no wealth by level adjustments needed.

this works for me every time for 6 people because that how big my group is. it increase the difficultly a little with minimum amount of work.

1 either use fast progression level up, or just level up all pc at the same point in the adventure that it recommends they should be x level and don't use XP at all (preferred method).

2 max out hp for BBEG don't use average which is defaulted (and that is half the dice+.5) and 2 or 3 more mooks to his encounter.

3 mook only in counter (such as a group of archers or bandits) add 3 or 4 more to the encounter an add +1 hp per hit dice. this will increase the treasure found and cr just enough.

4 for encounters with no treasure such as gelatinous cube or pack of wolfs. in the next encounter or treasure section that can be encountered double GP,Gems or potions. this will level out the wealth by level.

5 make sure you use random encounters no need to strength those.(this one might be able to be ignored if you don't use XP points and just level the player according to the adventure.) It good to do if your feel their treasure is a little lower then expected.

6 expect that the 1-4 levels of the Ap may be run though with easy.

If you don't edit the adventure or change level up progression at all by 8 level requirement for the adventure you players will be down 1 level lower then where they should be and heavenly short on money and gear since it is getting divide 6 ways. it still do able but will be really hard on the players. By the time where players should be level 11 or 12 they will be two levels down and it just get worse from that point on and the AP become impossible. the action economy increase that seems over powered in the 1st 4 levels, greatly weaken, because at some point the players can't make the skill checks required or pass the saves, have necessary spells or the ability even hit the AC of the encounters they are meant to or they don't have the expected HP.

I played with a DM that did this and never ran random encounters only the one in the APs those games where miserable after level 8 because we where so short on gear we could not do any of the things mention above. when you encounter a dragon at level 11 and the whole party was expected to be level 14 or 15 in the encounter and have the gear of such. the Archers or fighters can't hit the AC with out roll of 19 or 20, or everyone needs 17 to pass the will save vs fear aura and breath weapons. dragon laughs at the wizards low dcs ect. it end is instant TPK as apposed to very challenging encounter.

Will this AP have interactive maps with it or will they have to be gotten separately? First time ordering via subscription, and getting PDF version from you guys. Curious because I do use VTTs for my game. I normally get them used well after they come out on amazon and scan the maps out of the books. it would be nice to have easy way of removing all icons.

Divine Protection is a worthless feat now. it does not had cha mod to all saves any more. it was nerfed in the most recent Errata. I honestly think you guys are going to have a lot of problems every single player has multiclassed it does not matter if your level 10, you are vastly weaker thing single class party of the similar make up. Especially with the casters. Every character is also very MAD. This is going to weaken the group further. You should check with GM and see what level will the adventure end at.

As for your character
Oracle of Metal or Lunar Oracle would be better choices for a hell knight mix if you are just diping and want to be tanky. Also go Fighter or Paladin or if DM allows LE anti Paladin (there are actual rules for those) I would stay away from Signifier, unless you are going arcane. most of their ability are crap unless you are an arcane caster. So you end up wasting you levels on stuff you will never use. you better off playing strait oracle or cleric if you want to be a tanky caster in your group. if you want to be a tank with few 1st level spells go hell knight commander all the way.

Do this for tank
Human Swap bonus feat for forced study this gets you skill focus 3 times over the course of the game instead of one feat you get 3

Skill Focus Knownledge Planes or Survival Level 1 spending on bloodline selected
Skill focus Intimidate @ level 8
Skill focus what ever you want @ 16

Str 18

Dex 12

Con 14 +2 level up bonus for level 4 and 8

Int 12

Wis 14

CHA 16+2 race = 18

No archtypes
Fighter 5
1 Power Attack
2 Furious Focus
4 Intimidating Prowess

Armor Training 1 AS far as I can tell according to all NPC hell knights it stacks with Hell knight armor training.
Bravery will be +1

Buy sash of the war champion this increases fighter levels by 4 for effects of bravery and Armor training so you end up with armor training 2 and bravery +2

Weapon training 1 heavy blades since you want to use a long sword, Gloves of dueling add +2 to the effect of this

Oracle Lunar 1, Curse Tongues or Lame
Prophetic Armor add CHA mod instead of DEx to Ref saves and AC

Hell Knight commander 4 Order of God Claw
Discipline 1: Pentamic Faith (Domain travel) eventual gets you teleportation and grants +10ft of of moment, so even if wanted to do Lame as it negates any thing it does. I am more prone to tongues as my choice just have the other pc take the langue you are going to speak in combat as one of their lang and the curse is negated.

Force of Will 1 Compulsion there more compulsion spell and effect then any other and you already need a +2 to fear from bravery so no need for that one.

1: Toughness or Iron Will need to get your will save up.
3: Eldritch Heritage Abyssal or Orc (Orc has better ability and I would take them all but Abyssal works great RP and theme of hell knight trying to take down demons from hell and you can stop with the level 9 ability see below)
5: Your choice
7: Cornugon Smash
9: Your Choice
11: when you hit take Improved Eldritch Heritage lets you take the level 3 or the level 9 ability from blood line, both the orc and Abyssal ability add inherit bonus to str (this saves you a few 100k in gp as you no longer need a wish spell or books for those bonus and it actual make you stronger then wish can do)

Background Traits: Fate's Favored
Background traits: Magical Knack Oracle
(this will next you +3 to hit and damage from divine favor spell and +3 hp from cure light wounds spell)
Dawbacks: Foul Brand or Umbral Unmasking make for great RP for hell knight. This gets you another background trait
Background Traits: Aspiring Hell Knight just to go with the theme.

other Magic items suggestion to aim for at some point
Robe of arcane heritage (check with GM frist some people don't think it works with Eldritch heritage feats while other feel it does if it does.)

+X Ominous weapon
+x Mithal Hell knight plate (this combined with all the armor training and maxes out at a max dex of +9 which is very attainable able for you since you are using cha in it's palace)
headband of cha + 6
Belt of str and con +6
Ring of Protection + X
Cloak of resistance + x
Ring of lesser revelation if you any of the other lunar revelation, I like bridge one. could be useful from time to time.
Boots of the cat combine with boots of striding and springing
lots of potions of fly

2nd discipline: Fearsomeness is awesome when combine with the above feats.

3rd discipline Censor would work or the one that grants you xray vision.

19 level two handed fighter, Devastating Blow auto critial's, but does not confirm, at level 20 it auto confirm with one weapon. This is really nasty with weapon like a scythe instant kills most things.

no they are energy damage so that portion works, if they where weapon damage they be subject to DR.

Milo v3 wrote:
KainPen wrote:
your thinking old system, In a new system you be or new edition, most concepts as all new classes or archetypes much like they are starting to do now So VMC would be best way to focus on building on what we currently have. Multi-classing is a poor option in general in the current system as you end up vastly weaker then most single classes.

Except VCM is far too ridiculously limited in what it can do that is it near useless when it comes to replicating what could be done through multiclassing.

It not like it was in 1st and 2nd where multi classing was a powerful options. 3.X was made dependent on it. In pathfinder made single classing the better option as they are more powerful if they stick to one class, which is why it a poor option and it and Prestige Class do not work well. Archetypes, and stacking archetypes, and VMC expands concepts with out hurting the play to much.
VCM is weaker than Multiclassing and ridiculously more limited, they hurt play significantly more. Also, not all classes work with archetypes as well, some classes don't have as many class features and some classes simply are hard to think of concepts that cross over with another class, and even then what about when you want your character to go into a different line of skills than what you decided at 1st level. The rogue might decide he wants to become a wizard, or a fighter might awaken the magic in his blood and become a bloodrager, a ranger might want to become more tied to nature and become a druid. Without multiclassing your damaging the potential for characters to evolve and develop over time.

I don't think it is very limited, I think it is open very open especially for a player that has only a few feats that he wants and the rest are just throw away feats. He has a option to maybe make his character more diverse then the normal mold. but it is a new rules and can maybe use some more work over, which would happen when building a new edition. I just list it as possible example of a multiclassing route that could be option.

Doesn't retraining also represent mid game changes, you are talking about. As yoda said you must unlearn what you have learned. as in you example with the rogue become wizard, mid way through the game he realize he could actual be good at this stuff and still be rougeish so what does he do, he retrains all his class levels in to a new class that his a single hybrid class of the two. Say Arcane Trickster that is not a prestige class any more. The concept and idea is still fulled. He still grows in both area. but now instead of having to worry about to class, you only have to worry about 1, and the character would be more powerful because he is a single class at change over. instead of weaker by being 1 level wizard 7 levels rouge. he could have more spells a few new class abilities. more suited to his new role and abilities. Also we talking about a new edition, they could have a system in place for this. For VMA or career change. at mid point in a game.

There is no need to multi-class if there is an archtype or Hybrid/base class that fill every concept. All you need is a system in place to allow player to change to a new option mid game.

rknop wrote:

Yeah, I'd really hate to go to the Unchained Mutliclassing rules. I'm also not sure about the variant action economy. I've looked at it, haven't spent time to grok it. My first impression was that it sounded complicated enough that it wasn't worth learning if I wasn't going to use it, and it didn't immediately seem compelling enough to try to convince people to learn a new system for my home game.

On the other hand, I would really like to see inherent bonuses become part of the standard system. It's sad that various items are effectively required items (stat boosting belt, stat boosting headband, magic armor, magic weapon, etc.), using up slots that could be used for cool and flavorful other things.

Realistically multi-classing is not even need in a new edition and could be thrown out completely. You just make new base Classes that fill missing concepts or archetypes to fill those roles.

The new action in economy is great, and easier then current rules, along with it cleaning up stuff that does not work as written. I have a player that been playing a long time but he always have problems with rules, and forgets things and wanting to do more then he normal can do under the current rule set. we did several session of new action economy, he picked it up very quickly and actual was able to do a lot of the things he could not before.

Milo v3 wrote:
maybe make VMC the standard Multiclassing rules


That'd be pretty horrific, ruin so many characters. Ruin so many concepts..... I mean, I'd go back to 1e if Unchained Economy became standard already but that would be horrible.

your thinking old system, In a new system you be or new edition, most concepts as all new classes or archetypes much like they are starting to do now So VMC would be best way to focus on building on what we currently have. Multi-classing is a poor option in general in the current system as you end up vastly weaker then most single classes.

It not like it was in 1st and 2nd where multi classing was a powerful options. 3.X was made dependent on it. In pathfinder made single classing the better option as they are more powerful if they stick to one class, which is why it a poor option and it and Prestige Class do not work well. Archetypes, and stacking archetypes, and VMC expands concepts with out hurting the play to much.

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