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831 posts. Alias of Joshua Matherne.


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IRONxTrueblood wrote:
I hadn't realized the multi-class restriction was gone. I wonder well a Rogue (Scout) / Slayer would do. Charge + sneak attack + studied target.

it would totally suck, to many levels in rogue you have to take to get the charge feature, you are better off strait slayer.

Having play test a slayer. I found it one of the better class in the book, it was very well thought out and balanced classes it did not need a lot of adjustment. Sounds like the fixed the main complaint. With study target just taking too long at lower levels. Even at higher levels as swift action, it eats up your swift action economy not allowing you to do other things with it but it is not a total waste of using because you want to use it and also help out side of combat. It is really nice and I prefer it to rangers favored enemy bonus due to it flexibility. Don’t let sneak attack fool you it is still situational at best. Unless something major has changed in the slayer it is not going to out damage the fighter consistently. Despite that line in the blog. Sneak attack has the potential to cause that to happen, but as stated and everyone knowing sneak attack is situational at best. As you try to make it less situational by added feats or other abilities you end up sacrificing feats and end up with less feats in the long run by paying in feat taxes or loss of levels. As in the scout charge feature example. It balances the class out nicely in some instants he is going to out damage the fighter but he not going to do it all the time. Weapon training and Weapon specialization or if you have a spell like ability and can take arcane strike and you quickly make up for offset damage and to hit difference between fighter and slayer. It is a great battle buddy for a fighter and you team up together taking stuff out quickly. This class is the new Rogue. The way the Rogue was meant to be. Also this class is a bit more MAD then it looks, as you need STR,DEX,CON,CHA,and INT as some of it talents are based of that.cha just to help support it skill set. It also the perfect class to do solo adventure for it is that well balanced.


GypsyMischief wrote:

I feel like a lot of these concepts can be produced with the classes we have currently. A few posts back I saw someone call for a 6 level arcane casting, 3/4 BAB, kinda sneaky guy, and his divine counterpart; you're asking for the Bard & Inquisitor.

I never played an artificer, so I'm not sure what they do, could someone educate me?

Just for the sake of class completion a 4 level arcane caster could be interesting. It could take form as a beefier hexblade, throwing around debuffs like a witch with magus style.

you are correct the only one that can't be done with the class we already have is the Priest and Warlocks as it 3.x fuction of them. but by definiation we already have Warlocks, all warlocks are male witches and we have a witch class.

One of two things should have happen to cleric back then spell levels reduced to 6 levels of casting to match Bard and dropped to light armor and light shield, and gained spontaneous cure casting. there was no need for 7 levels of casting or it should have been turned in to a Priest lost all armor use no spontaneous curing and 9 levels of casting. But that did not happen. Pathfinder tried to take care of monster CoDzilla, but I actual think they made things worse, by losing turn undead, which was mostly useless ability or over powered ability. Made undead encounter trial or no effective at all to channel, which is always useful either for healing or causing damage to undead As now the cleric does not have to drop as many spells for healing allowing him to buff a lot more. The Loss of heavy armor was not really that big of a deal because they were already over powered and now have more spell to buff themselves with since they don’t have to do as much healing. This make the cleric more fun and less of a heal bot, but also make them more powerful.

Cleric is still greater then wizard, better saves, more hp, spontaneous and prepared caster, full levels of spells, armor and some domain spells are wizard spells better weapon selection.

While the idea of priest is nice it is just not going to compare to cleric without become over powering. It would be model off the wizard and could be done easily as a wizard archetype that trade out wizard spell list for cleric list.

There is no need for Artificer any more, the whole point of the Artificer was a magic device crafter and specialist. The big selling point of the Artificer is it could use it Artificer points to build magic items without spending xp on them. Spending xp was removed with pathfinder, so that sell point is mute, the artificer could also for his level on wands and what not, this can already be done in the bard archetype magician. So if you want an artificer play that archetype and take the magic item crafting feats.


Old post of my old build when i was looking for advice on building a spear guy.

Human Mobile Fighter
Bonuse Feat race Combat reflexes
1st Dodge and Weapon Focus(Long Spear)
2nd Quick Draw
3rd Moblity
4th Weapon SP(Long Spear)
5th Spring Attack
6th Lunge
7th Martial Versatility(Speicalization Or Weapon Focus)
8th Greater Weapon Focus
9th Improve Critial (Long Spear)
10th Power Attack
11th Combat Expertise
12th Greater Weapon SP
13th Point Blank Shot
14th Whirlwind attack
15th Improved Trip
16th Precise Shot
17th Martial Mastery
18th Greater Trip
19th Deadly Aim
20th Two-handed Thrower

make sure to craft or buy these
Pilum, distance weapon. That is Also in spear category.
The tip of this heavy javelin is designed to break off and embed itself into a shield once it hits. Like ammunition, a thrown pilum that hits its target is destroyed. If you hit a shield bearing opponent with a pilum, he loses the AC bonuses from that shield until he takes a standard action to pry the remnants of the pilum from his shield.

This feat also which would be really good if you go human and use long spear as base reach weapon

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/arg-feats/martial-versatility-combat-human
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/arg-feats/martial-mastery-combat-human

It would allow you to use weapon focus and weaponSP and improved crit and so on. With all spear weapons. You can use pilum to get rid of shield ac or slow target by limit it to move and free actions only if they want shield ac.

This is my old build never got to play him. Still want to Looking at it now. I would change the feat placement would try to get trip sooner as it really weakens at later levels.

recommed efficent quivers to put all the extra spears and Pilum in for easy access with out much weight.

I say do mobile fighter because you can move and still full attack at 11 level and further up the chain move and do whirlwind attack. only thing missing is poison use. which oberyn martell used. This build also make you use full for when you have to fight flying enemies it very versatile and still strong.


I think that is your problem to many high detailed maps with hex grid already snapped in to the image. This is limiting you. try to make 1 map no hexes in the image just image of map, then resize that image to an aspect ratio you are going to have to play with Based on size and visual quality you want. As others siad 1 meg is ideal for internet play, but if you want better quality 5 meg should be good. if it LAN based game you should notice no lag if 5 meg images. Then use the VTT to input the hexs grid manually on top the plain image. Most have a way of doing this some don't to the scale you want the grids to be. Some like D20pro limit you to just squares. but squares could have the same effect. The only reason hex are used is to make more accurate measure of distance, so you don’t have to use 5,10,5 rule for diagonals. Hexograher program could be the whole problem I don’t know anything about it. But I had similar issues with Dundjinni building maps, because it auto scales on x size, with its own set rule for grids. So what I do now since I can’t draw for the life of me much less use gimp or Paint shop pro. (if you can do this best way to make high quality maps that fit into VTT well without any issues.) I use Dundjinni easy features to build the structures of map to give it the look I want for world or massive dungeon. I tend to avoid the auto stamp object in my maps for dundjinni. As they are scaled to set size, you may be seeing the same thing with Hexographer. Then go import the image then add the add the grid manually inside the VTT to the number of squares I want.

Edit*
I just looked up Hexographer on my phone, I would not even use it. It is your problem just like Dundjinni, was for me. It is set to an x scale at X resolution and is not made with VTT in mind or making just and image from the looks of hexographer you can’t take the grid out of the image. You are going to have to use 3rd party image software to resize the image to lower DPI. These programs where made to print out on lots of sheets of paper and make a big poster board of them all taped together, or print out on large plotter printers. The print scale is that all the hex are set number of inches on piece of paper. Your best solution is going to be to make new image using the poster board style. Take each of those maps use resize them to they are about 300kb to 1 meg each, you can do this in paint, gimp, ect. with resizing option. Just do 50% until you get close to that number. Then after that then make a new image file inside said paint program, then cut and paste each 300kb to 1 meg each image to the new back drop placing them together in order, just like you would have done back in the day with poster board, glue and or tape. You are going to lose quality and it may actual come out to small you are going to have to play with it and may have to make several maps but it could very well reduce you from 12 maps to 3 or 4. Then import map in to VTT and adjust VTT grid to fit on top of grid of your map. It may not fit perfect but it is your best solution with what you are working with.


resize the resolution of the map to 50% the again by 50% your resolution is way to high that is why you are having size problems. you can do this in paint. but I suggest doing it else where as the image is going to eat a ton of ram. your image file if 20meg will eat up 1.5 to 2 gigs of ram. your computer has to decompress it to view it. This is the issue you are having. The Grid lines are going to stay in the same place and the same distance a part. but the image you are using will change. your more then likely have a DPI range of 150 to 200. this make file size huge map, but you really don't need that level of detail, 100 to 50 dpi is often more the enough. I have even gotten really good maps at 25dpi for those that are really huge physically like your world map. Change to JPG as you are not use transparency instead of PNG. This will save you more space.


Your screw the bag is instantly destroyed they only have if made of cloth so 2 hp no hardness, that is if it is at least inch thick. It is more than likely less than that. The bonus damage alone from swallow whole destroys the bag. It is no longer attended by you so it get none of bonus you grant it by allowing it to avoid damage. Once you’re in the bag you can't get out without help, person on the outside has to open the bag to retrieve you. So you can't even stick your hand out to shoot your gun. You can attack the bag from inside to get out though with piercing or slashing weapon it does not take much.


monks speed bonus and haste do not work together. they are both enhancement bonus to speed. You can just take fleet as a feet as much as you want to increase your speed that way and it stacks with haste. staying strait fighter is better or level dipping in barbarian. Then you can pick up big will save bonus, rage and fast movement that works in mithril medium armor. and now you are not stat MAD. Take fleet two time you will have the feats due to fighter bonus. boots of striding and springing as magic item and you are at 60 movement all the time, then with haste now you have movement of 80. Honestly once you have 50ft.any more speed really does not really matter. Battle maps are just not that big. you really don't want to be that fast all any way. it does it put you further away from the healer and leaves you in trouble or put the healer in trouble for when he has to come try to heal you. Had a Monk and two handed fighter built on spring attack and vital strike in my group and they get into trouble all the time because they were to far ahead of the rest of the party.


hunter was not a waste of word count. Me and my friend played a set of twin hunters with very similar build only slight difference here and there. They were the strongest of the play test classes. Because there is a hidden feature in the hunter no one notices. The more hunters in a group there are the more powerful they are. 3 or more hunters in a group are the most broken thing in pathfinder I have ever seen. I hope it gets fixed in the final draft. the problem is the free teamwork feats giving to AC. it is an exponential increase in power. team work feat while weak on their own because not everyone wants to take them. if a group of 4 all took team work feats they become good, but the whole group has to do that requires people to break from their build are character concepts. not going to happen, but with hunter 2 in the group now and the ability to swap teamwork feats on the fly. you don't have that problem because you have 4 creatures using teamwork feats for free with out impeding other players. all of a sudden teamwork feats are actual useful very useful.

this is the combo we had was mounted combat builds, with large cats

Seize the Moment with high crit range weapon, this feeds a whole bunch of AOO often.

Paired Opportunists - +4 to all the Aoo we get caused by Seize the Moment

Shake It Off - constant bonus to all saves as you are always adjacent to AC

Cavalry Formation - 2 hunters and ac all in the same large square = always adjacent so other hunter making shake it off bonus constant +3

Coordinated Charge - pounce at the same time.

now lets add a 3rd and 4th hunter similar build all characters have +4 to all saves +4 to attack roll on Aoo can pounce at the same, high odd some one crits triggering off 6 to 8 Aoo. which also has a high chance of critical possible triggering it again. Not to mention buffs from spell and anything else, added shield wall and shield caster to give everyone nice bonus to AC and and concentration checks.

it can get really nasty really quick.


yeah this GM is adding custom stuff there should only be demons in the entire campaign expect that one imp at the very beginning is the only devil. in the whole campaign if I remember correctly. in the final encounter in front of temple should have been a few vrocks, and Glabrezu. Your gm may have shorted you xp by changing encounter or made encounter to easy or did not make them hard enough for what ever reason, Also you group should have realized Riddle port was the place to by eq with 40k spending limit. I had just looked it up the elf capital had a 20k limit. why they would have less the the town the game starts in who knows. You guys could have teleported back to at any time. Since you could not go back to drow city with the 100+k limit it had. there nothing wrong with changing the AP, so long as you stays balanced. the Devil and Demon used did not exist when this adventure was published so that how you know he added stuff in. All the monster should have been limit to tome of horrors and 1st Bestiary stuff(which that book was not even published yet all the monsters are based off 3.5).

Xacarba
Axe Beak
Chard
and those lion looking things in the 2nd chapter were all added in the adventures they show up bestiary section of each chapter in the adventure and later added to Bestiary 2.

not sure were the balance collapsed weather it was lack of gear or the changes DM made maybe he optimized some of the monsters were normally they are not. it just did not translate will from 3.5 to pathfinder rule set for you guys but it happened. I don't recommend the 3.5 adventures to any gm because this happens. your multi classing could have did it also. What done is done though. It took me about 3 months to rewrite the AP and balance it out for my group of 6 on fast progression. they end up the game at level 16 and I quadrupled and the number of guards/fighters, maybe double the number of caster. while the fight was hard two of them dropped to negative numbers they. they did not come close to TPK or need my invention to win the battle.

I would just move on the the next game and make sure you bring extra healing and multi class a little less.

you guys need to look into moving the game in to VTT it will speed up the games drastically. my group did that whole temple the fort before it and the last glyph all in 1 6 hour night. I never been in a game where a single encounter took 6 to 7 games to do. I been in them where they taken 1 night per encounter. I can't stand that. Since moving to VTT my group get done 3 to 4 of the encounters done in 1 night that used to be 1 encounter a night. they do speed up the game that much.


can you do it in 6 seconds? cause that how long a round is.


I ran second darkness about a year ago and the encounter you describe is not in it. Sound like your GM expanded on the adventure. the adventure end at with pc around level 15 or 16. If you guys are higher then that, then your playing expanded stuff.

it sounds like the dm combine 3 encounters into the final battle.

one encounter that sound real similar to you describe in the 4th chapter with shield golem, and the younger brother of noble family of drow, the sister high level wizard her self in the extensional space. but they are from an rival family, you are targeting. They would not directly help them they want to seem that family destroyed as much as you. those encounter can easily avoided by leaving out the tower landing area outside for flying creatures and not attacking the sister and leaving when she tell you to.

the the sorcerer sounds like the cleric lover but he should have been encounter else were while you search and destroy the glyphs and leave you a clue that upset the cleric in the final battle causing her to go mad and target you and her own people in her fire storm spell and other attack spells.

if you did not destroy the glyphs you are screwed and the battle is impossible to win. if you did it should be a hard battle but not impossible. but there were never any golem in the final battle, just the clerics few solider and a few vrock's

the adventure was also made for 3.5 so your gm had to do some edit and should have tone that battle down a little. because cleric did not have channel in 3.5 and solders did not have as many feats. you should have had chance to buy good gear in the elven capital before heading under ground for a 2nd time. I think 40k was limit listed for single item.


pathfinder healing is better then any other system. There is actual more healing now then there ever was before in any of the early editions. With channel and quick channel, healing spell doing +x level to the spells, spontaneous casting of the spells so now they are spam able and life oracle ability to break limits on the spells. holding a charge option and meta magic feats, Not mention how stupidly easy it is to use a wand with use magic device to use healing wands. I play 2 games with out a healer class in the group in the game and still manged to blow the AP out the water with ease. It is over power as it is; and make the game way to easy. If anything it needs a Nerf not a buff.

If you want less casting repeats you have to remove channel and the ability to spontaneous cast to balance it out for the increased amount it does. other wise the game is going to be way to easy.


There are a few monk feats that could simulate the charging jump thing the player trying to do. but not actual do as Diego Rossi pointed out. The moment he had to make the jump checks he could not charge. I had a player that took them, they are called spider step and cloud step I think. one lets you run up walls but you have to end your total movement on a level solid source. the other through the air while ending movement on solid surfaces. my player asked me if he could use it to wall jump like in all the video game. I told him there is no need as it lets you run up the wall or strait up in to the air, I told him if he wants think of the action being preformed that way it is fine. The feats basically negate the need of jump checks and allow you to charge up walls or strait through the air. Crouching trigger hidden dragon kind of stuff


a lot of people miss this but the material component of the spell is limited to single onyx that is worth 25pg per hit dice. which according to ultimate equipment guide can be worth no more than 65gp, thus the spell is limited to 2 hit dice creatures, but this same component is used for create undead and created greater, when make those spell completely useless as they don’t even function using the ultimate equipment guide rules on the gem. So Dm's often have to house rule that you can use more than one onyx with the spell or actual make onyx worth more than that.

Also you choices of undead are limited skeletons and zombie, most creature actual and up worse and almost useless as these creatures, as they lose feats, features, defensive and offensive abilities. hp take a huge hit to lower numbers, bab often takes a hit and natural armor gets reduces to almost nothing and they have no skills. Also most are destroyed at 0 hp so all that money you spent is gone in an instant. This could lead to loss of flight or the undead is constantly staggered, meaning very little action.

So it is really not that strong because a single fireball spell or some other area effect spell could kill them all quickly leading you heavy loss of funds.

Here where it gets strong and useful especially in a powerful in a pre-written AP, the variety skeleton the bloody one. Is really nasty in APs because of they have unending regeneration. Wait a few mins and the start to heal right back up. There is a weakness them, but very few creatures in APs have ability to overcome as evil or negative energy designed creatures for good pcs to overcome. They are not setup to defeat evil undead. Another weakness and they count as double hit dice you allowed to create but not control once they are created they use normal hit dice for control. This is where desecrate spell come in handy as it allowed to create double the normal hit dice creatures you normally could and give bonus hp to each undead created.

So it can be very strong if you as dm are not ready for it or willing to adjust a prewritten AP to the party and there tactics.


Joex that point of point of Tomos and pupsocket discussion is to answer question 1. it can't be answerd with out there debate being resloved.

1) strict RAW per pupsocket argument is no you can't apply the bonus because the attack roll as whole is substituting in place of the CMB check. the whole roll for the attack roll whatever the attack roll was and check that total vs cmd. This includes all weapon based bonus such spell buff that apply to normal attack roll and strangely inverted size bonus.

If the correct answers would be to apply bull rush feats to the roll and only substituted what is physically rolled on the actual dice. mean you don’t have to make a 2nd roll. All bonus apply as normal for the CMB check modifiers ,Tomos argument, and follows standard CMB check, there is no strange quirkyness that happens with this.

2)Per raw the character can't not forgo substitution because the free bull rush must be made substitute with attack roll. but he can forgo the bullrush check by not useing the shield slam feat at all.

Another bit of information is that all CMB checks are already attack rolls.

I would start a new thread asking for FAQ clarification with your question and add link to all the threads that have had this debate come up as they all have previous FAQ clicked on them as well. your question 1 and 2 are very clear on what they are asking. I would like to see this resolved so it stops popping up the boards. it shows up about every 2 or 3 months since the captain America movies have come out and people start making shield builds.


hit FAQ this debate has come up several times, and both side the argument make sense.

I would say using the attack roll is much more powerful then normal bullrush check with out rolling the dice, as it then allows you to added weapon, focus, enhancements bonus, weapon training and any other bonus that apply to normal weapon attack. Your total end up much higher then uses feats.

On the other hand it makes a strange effect it causes as size bonus to the check are reversed, as a small creatures have a better chance of bull rushing with this feat then larger creatures.

I honestly think the intent of the feat is allows you to slam and preform a bull rush check for free, without re-rolling the d20 added all bull rush feats and weapon bonuses as you normally don’t get to add those to a bull rush.

Is it overpower hardly, all it does it give you a chance for any AOO if target is knocked prone or preform a semi stagger effect, as creatures that are pushed away have to use their move action to come back and attack you again.

I think the combat maneuver itself is the balancing factor. It does not work on creatures 2 sizes bigger than yourself. This knocks the number of creatures this is useable on down a lot with some sort of magical assistance.


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Gitoffamylawn!!! wrote:

Phhfffft! All this talk of yer fancy shmancy "recharging staff". Back in my day we used a staff and at the end of the day, you know what we had? We had a stick!

<pulls out a dead 2E staff and starts whacking people whining about it being difficult to recharge, let alone even being able to recharge, a staff about the thread>

you old coot you're telling these youngster wrong. Most Staff were rechargeable back in our day only a few were not. But I tell you want it was harder than then it is now. you young yipper snappers have no clue hard things were back then. Recharging any item required a saving throw at -1 penalty for the item and spell listed in the staff and enchant item or prayer cast on it. If it fail the save, guess what it crumbled to dust and was destroyed. You could not even use it as a stick. So we either used it as stick or tried to recharge it. Most of the time it was better to use that stick. Those were the days. when we beat monsters with those sticks, while walking 5 miles up hill, on glass in the snow bearfoot. Time were hard, did not have all these fancy feats you kids have now days and extra abilities and tons of attacks and AOO. we got 5 every 2 rounds at the most. You kiddies don’t know hard..


is it for PFS? If for PFS go with whatever you want. I never cared for re roll ability’s and feats, I find them rather weak, if they or not constant. So I would lean more toward two-handed fighter. If home brew go two-handed fighter and use a scythe, at level 19-20 you can one hit just about everything in the game and you are not going to miss with a -5 penalty on highest bab furious focus takes care of power attack penalty. I got one in my game he was weapon master before, he retrained because two-handed just does more damage, every hit is a critical. Weapon master is good if you think you are going to miss a lot which my player though was going to happen.

You can use Falchion with two-handed fighter and you going to out damage the weapon master easily because the critical range is the same.

edit* did not see the remake part of old adventure. I would go two weapon fighter either build is good. just swap the archtype.


CraziFuzzy wrote:


You've convinced me, you're completely beyond logic on this matter. If you agree that the magic is getting in there by the great skill of the person able to improve the items, then how in the WORLD do you equate that to high skill in on craft being able to improve a completely unrelated item? The fantastical logical leaps you make are insane, and should disqualify you from any sort of discussion in a rules forum.

"I'm really good at making swords. I can make them perfectly balanced, I can align the metal just right so that it accepts magical energies from the ether around me... therefore I can do the same to the fibers in a cloak..." This makes absolutely NO sense whatsoever.

I could almost understand some of the others here who were saying they could use any skill to enhance an item when they were basing it on poor grammar comprehension, thereby making it just the result of an unfortunate RAW peculiarity. But to actually try to justify it like you are is just asinine. Your GM must love having you at the table.

Considering I am the GM at the table I would think he is loved at the table. I know the Players love the GM as they constantly buy APs for me to run. They also have fun and come up with creative things.

why does it make no sense that a weapon smith could not make a magical cloak, as part of the process of magic a magic sword it to polish it correct? Maybe the way the weapon smith polish all the magic swords he makes or comes into his shop for repairs. align the energy on that that peace of cloth in return the cloth gain that magical energy also.

The ability to align the energy in the cloth is represented by having craft wondrous item feat. What skill was used is based off master craftsmen meaning the item was used some where in that crafting process. or as i stated before crafting magic item does not necessarily mean you physical making something, that is what mundane crafting does.

It could also be represent in a divine way by pray to your god constant every time you preform your craft or profession and while you work, It is actual the divine being that make the magical energy enter said item.

is it crazy to think a divine being may not take notice of your work and reward you for it. half price magic item is a hell of a reward.

as I said before you are playing again with GODS, MAGIC, Fire breathing flying reptilians, demons, devil ,and even Godzilla now is it really far fetch to think that some guy polish a bunch of swords every day won't make a cloth magical if he knows how to align magical energy. logic goes out the window in the game.


seebs wrote:

Okay, so, couple of questions:

1. Do you think that spellcasters should also be allowed to use any craft, not just the listed or applicable crafts, when making magic items?
2. If you think spellcasters should also be allowed to do that, why do you think the rules even mention the crafts that "can" be used, if absolutely any craft can be used for absolutely any item?
3. If you don't think spellcasters should also be allowed to do that, why would you let anyone else do it without explicit wording saying the rules for item crafting were being changed?

1. They don't need to they have spell craft for that. Spell craft preforms that exact same function. a general craft any magic item you want skill. odd are a spell caster is going to have more ranks in spell craft then a craft skill. As it is used for more things then just crafting, id magic items, id spell so you can counter spell ect. ect.

2. because it another option that a spell caster can use by actual using craft skill in case for some reason it has bonus that is higher. Casters have a options master craftsmen do not.

3. If I have a caster that wants to make a magical grip for a sword, I see no reason why jeweler or wood worker skill could not be used make the grip. The grip could be what makes the whole weapon it magic, that the whole you can use appropriate skill for the check comes in. what deem appropriate dm based on the fluff the player gives him.

There a is a sword that you can get in way of the wicked AP that actual gain power by adding a grip and pommel to it. I am not sure if there are more example of this in other AP. As I have not read or GM them all, but I know it is in that one.


Yes as albatoone said and gave you the reason. It is an archetype not a new bloodline; this is why you can't take mutated bloodlines with eldritch heritage feats, because they are not actual bloodlines.


CraziFuzzy wrote:


I believe the concept behind the Master Craftsman feat, though, is that even though you don't have a grasp on controlling the arcane magicks at work to create a magic weapon, you are so competent at the craft of forging and improving a weapon, that you can make it recieve magic through the grace of your workmanship. That, really, is the only explanation that would allow a non spellcaster to enchant anything, and with that explanation in mind, it explains pretty much every part of the feat.
It explains why it is limited to enchanted mundane objects, and not overt spell trigger or spell completion items.
It explains the requirement to use your craft check to complete the work, as you are not manipulating the magic directly via your mastership of the arcane forces (spellcraft), but instead are working your craft in such a way that the item receives the arcane energies...

Thank you; you just justified the use of the skill working for all magic items in your own statement. It is the skill of improving the item that taps in to magical energy’s making the item magical. Does not have the be limited to the weapon craft only for swords, as I stated earlier in my examples or others have stated for using basket weaver making a magical dagger or a cheese merchant that slices cheese with a sword every day. The crafting of the basket and placing dagger in to said basket praying to the gods. Enchanted the bladed because of his skill it impresses the god to enchant it as gift. Or maybe the swords pommel or hilt is made entirely of basket weave. Instead of tang being wraped in leather or cloth or a metal with jewel placed in it. look I just justfied why a jeweler should be able to make a magical sword. It is up to you to come up with the fluff to justify this crazy illogical roll. logic should not be applied to a world where any person can be come 7ft tall, can shoot fireballs from eyes and bolts of lighting out his rear end.


Artanthos wrote:
Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote:
Master Craftsman specifically calls out that you must choose a specific profession or craft, substituting your ranks in that craft for your caster level and using its check in place of spellcraft. It does not require that you actually have a craft chosen that would normally be associated with the item you want to build.

It goes back to applying common sense to the rules.

Why would you think you could apply Craft: basketweaving to forging a sword? Are you also going to argue the Dead condition does not stop a character from acting normally? There are a lot of things not explicitly included in the rules, and any attempt to include everything would result in a book too large to carry.

becasue your not forging you are enchanting at that point. the Item has to already beforged and master work qaulity before you can use craft magic item feats. At least for weapons and armor, all other items can be normal items that are already crafted through mudane crafting. Forging happens during the mundane proccess, not the magic item proccess.


Ed Reppert wrote:
Blake Duffey wrote:
Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote:
If an interpretation of a rule or feat makes it seem useless to exactly the characters it is aimed at, then I find it unlikely to be the correct interpretation.

I don't find my interpretation to be 'useless' - it allows a martial character to craft a limited set of magical items. Without this feat, that is restricted to casters only.

I find it very flavorful that my samurai could craft his own magical weapons.

Flavorful, yeah, but does it make sense that someone who has no magic, can do no magic, can suddenly make magic items? To me it does not.

why not, any one can multi class at any time and become a caster, that give you impression that latent magic ability is hidden in every creature in existence in the pathfinder world. Some times it just comes out differently, maybe it the only for this person to access those hidden magical abilities. There are tons of magic background traits to support this also.


so you have something to roll other then spell craft check. It also something you already have 5 ranks invested in that also giving you a +2 to also so you did not waste your time.


Who to say a cheese merchant could not enchant a sword, maybe the masterwork sword used to slice his cheese so perfectly day after day after day, that sword it self gets tiny bits of that cheese embed in the microscopic pits in the sword, much like cast iron pot seasons it self over time and use hold heat better and added flavor to foods cooked in it. over time enchanting it magic seeps into in to the blade. is it from the cheese, is it from a divine source who loves this cheese merchants work so much or the happiness it brings others that the divine being allow the small amounts of magic to flow into the weapon over time. Maybe it something like a monk, where this cheese makers inner mystical chi flower through him and force the weapon to be come magical. Or is it just that all the heart soul and will power words spoken and strange hand moment enchant the blade. isn't that what casting a magic spell is A focus, material, verbal, somatic components. the ritual it self is the enchantment process.

you are talking about a world were a guy can take pinch of dust and toads eye and and turn solid stone into mud after all. All roll represents in a simpler shorted version of that ritual. to speed up game play.

I see Khrysaor point why it says you must use that skill and I can find a fluff explanation way of making it work no matter how strange it is or seems. That the whole point of a world of fantasy and magic world is use your imagination to come up with unreasonable reason to why something like this works. you can come up tons of stuff with as much fluff as you want to justify why this strange RAW wording work this way.

another example with the basket weaving person mention earlier in the thread. The basket weaver making a magical suit of armor, maybe the basket weaver. weaves as basket so perfect he decided to fill it with fruit and a dagger and offer it to his god, he prays to his god 8 hours a day in front of his offering (this is the daily roll of progress) due to his basket weavers devotion and fine workmanship the gods notice and as rewarding him by imbuing the dagger with magic, and send him a message that he may keep the dagger as the basket and prayers is fair exchange in their eyes.


Draco all DR can be by passed even Dr X/- there are feats and ability’s that let you do it. Also magical beast can't not overcome dr magic unless they them self’s have Dr/magic. Dr is rather useless in my opinion and over rated. The cheapest and fast way to get DR is Adamantine armor, at 5100k for chain shirt for dr 1/-, All dr/something after looking through all the magic item cost from 14k to 137k. with the 14k area being Dr5/magic the rest of the range most of them around 27k is dr 5/alignment. Which is also overcome easily by creatures of said alignment with dr or a +5 weapon. Dr is really meant for monsters to help make them a little more challenging which is few and far between, as most of the time when you run into creatures with a Dr, you should already have a way to overcome it, either by spell or weapon blanche, or actual have the correct + weapon to overcome it, DR has taken even a further hit on it strenght with the release of mythic rules even epic DR has taken a huge nerf hit with it originally requiring a +6 weapon which could only be found in artifacts, bane weapons and simlar weapon effects or custom items built by GM. Now a +1 frost, flaming, corrosive, shocking, thundering, ghost touch weapon can now go through it. They also added more attacks that completely ignore all together as swift action, much like paladins smite. There are several feats that let you ignore it. Cluster shots is example of ranged on, penetrating strike and greater penetrating strike. If you want to have a descent DR that effective at most levels you to take levels as barb invulnerable rager or armor master fighter as it’s Dr stacks with Adamantine armor to give you a fairly decent number. Any other method is easly over come by the level at which you can afforded it.


can't be done as there is no way to price it. The closest you can get is, Bracers, Arrowmaster’s,

This simple pair of leather shooting bracers are designed to protect the wearer’s wrist from being snapped by bowstrings.

They appear similar to a set of bracers of archery, but a wearer notices the difference as soon as she dons them.

The wearer of these bracers gains damage reduction 5/magic against ranged weapons, as well as a +1 deflection bonus against ranged attacks. In addition, once per day, as a swift action, the wearer can grant herself a +20 insight bonus on her next ranged attack roll before the end of her next turn.

13,900gp

you can ask you dm if you can add this to your armor at the 50% extra cost increase rule for merging two items into one. 20,850gp would be total.


I am not sure I would think no based of Damage reduction rules being if you don't do any damage you can't stunn, cause deases ect. with out doing damage. the DR basicly negates the effect. I think as DM I would let it slide as the feat says you just have to hit the target, and shatter defense is one of the weaker feats and feat chains in the book. it offer very little bonus later in the game where creature are composed up of mostly natual armor or actual armor and no dex mod. or very little of one. and consider the fast way to have it go off requires team work, or 3 attacks from your self before getting any benfit from it and then that benift very small at that point. full bab class are not even going to need or notice the befit. 3/4 bab class don't have it trigger to very late in the game where there is almost no benfit.


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master craftsmen is a wasted feat considering you can get a caster level from a spell like ability via background trait or another feat or race and take the all the craft feats you that way and just use spell craft to make magic items and not be so restrictive. you could even do spell trigger one based off your spell like ability.


It all depends on how you play perm and temp score changes. see FAQ I am quitting blow. The rules support both methods and leave it to DM choice. The FAQ it telling you that both Mathwei, and Rat are correct. If you GM is choice to do point by point non-quick build rules. then Rat is correct and how they are healed are the only difference, if you GM is choice quick build rules, then mathwei is correct that every 2 points give you a negative and score does not change and his healed differently.

PFS uses quick build rules to make things more static and simpler and save time as not everyone has VTTS or AUTO Calculation sheets, but it is not a house rule to do non quick build rule. I believe Rats method will become the permit method of doing this as more auto fill calculate character sheets and Virtual table tops come into the market, as these things can make all the adjustments need with press of a button, it even faster than using quick build rules.

"Temporary Ability Score Increases vs. Permanent Ability Score Increases: Why do temporary bonuses only apply to some things?
Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do. The section in the glossary was very tight on space and it was not possible to list every single ability score-related game effect that an ability score bones would affect.

The purpose of the temporary ability score ruling is to make it so you don't have to rebuild your character every time you get a bull's strength or similar spell; it just summarizes the most common game effects relative to that ability score.

For example, most of the time when you get bull's strength, you're using it for combat, so the glossary mentions Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, Strength-based weapon damage rolls, CMB, and CMD. It doesn't call out melee attack rolls that use Dex instead of Str (such as when using Weapon Finesse) or situations where your applied Str bonus should be halved or multiplied (such as whith off-hand or two-handed weapons). You're usually not using the spell for a 1 min./level increase in your carrying capacity, so that isn't mentioned there, but the bonus should still apply to that, as well as to Strength checks to break down doors.

Think of it in the same way that a simple template has "quick rules" and "rebuild rules;" they're supposed to create monsters which are roughly equivalent in terms of stats, but the quick rules are a short cut that misses some details compared to using the rebuild rules. Likewise, the temporary ability score rule is intended as a short cut to speed up gameplay, not as the most precise way of applying the bonus.

A temporary ability score bonus should affect all of the same stats and rolls that a permanent ability score bonus does."


yes and no.

if you take a 5ft step you cannot move any more. but you can however preform other move action that does not require you to move anymore, such as drink a potion, stand up from prone, draw a weapon.

So if your character is looking to physically move after taking a 5ft step and attacking, no they can't. the other move actions are perfectly valid options.


It is one of the best Fighter Archetypes if you know you are going to at least level 11, it also better two weapon figther than the two weapon figther archetype, and a better switch hitter also.


bugleyman wrote:
I haven't read this whole thread, and obviously this is only my opinion, but here are things I disliked about 2e:

  • Lack of unified/rationalized mechanics: For example, descending AC, non-weapon proficiencies in which you wanted a *low* roll on the d20. IIRC dual-classing was stilla thing, "demi-humans" still had level limits, etc.

  • Missing mechanics: No half-orcs, no monks, etc.

  • Removal of certain thematic elements: In what was probably an over-reaction to irrational fears of Satanism, etc., references to demons, devils, etc. were removed.

On there other hand, there were a few things I really liked:


  • Art direction: Chain-mail bikinis aside, the art tended to show more landscapes, context, etc., and overall just seemed more inspiring (and less "dungeon-punk") that what was to come later.

  • Graphic design: I liked the clean layout with black/blue pages (but full-color pages sprinkled throughout).

Overall I think it erred on the side of "not enough" when it came to updating 1E, especially when it came to internal consistency.

Monks where in the complete Cleric hand book, they did have half orc where in the complete humanoid hand book.

Lack of unified/rationalized mechanics: seem the complaint that comes up the most. I seen it effect players new players, but after there 2nd or 3rd character it became a none issue. It really is just a learn curve of system mastery much like today. It is more then likely one of the reason for the fall of the system though. Because at natural method of thinking is that bigger is better. It been that way through out history, it why the wonders of the world were so large, why we build sky Scrapers, It how we determine value of stuff. It also why old Bibles that priest used to read during mass where so Big during the dark ages because people would believe the large book was more accurate or had more information in it. Rolling low or low number seem innately wrong and not good. It blows people minds.


Thank Durngrun I was just about to point that out. at no time in the FAQ is the example physical switch weapon to a different hand.

Edit I found this for your here from James Jacobs on the subject

Link


Armor Training, Mithral and hell knight armor, are the only ways to do it. Hell knight/Fighter can get the highest max dex in Mithral hell knight full plate with sash of the champion.

you can have a 14 dex and combat reflex in full plate and not be a fighter your just limited to only getting +1 to you dex mod to ac. you still get 2 extra Aoo from the dex mod, the bonus to initiative and reflex saves and skill checks. Those things are not effected by armor.


you can bull rush from stand still with shield slam, and you can choose to limit how far you push something back, under the rules of bull rush it says if you successed by 5 or more you can push the target back further. "you can" being a choice or option, you don't have to. but note you can never get a AOO from bullrush even with a reach weapon. see bull rush rules, involuntary movement never causes AOO unless otherwise stated by feat or ability, Example greater bull rush, even then greater bull rush with you are not allowed to take AOO only your Allies can.

I don't think you can threat with a two handed weapon and armor spike due to the whole 2 invisible hand thing at the same time. and having to constantly change grip only on your turn. same issuse with quick draw. But since the OP has ability to use a two handed weapon reach weapon as a one hand one, he can threaten with both, the reach and 5ft adjacent to himself also as other pointed out you can’t quick draw for an AOO and whips require special feats to threaten.


If you took Mythic version, I would not even bother with improved or greater, there no point in getting them mythic allow you to even get the level 20 bloodline power, combine with robe of arcane heritage for +4 to sorc levels and you got it at level 18. Also you don't have to put nowhere near as much in CHA. you waste 2 feat and possible ability points(that completely depends on build and class.) if you know you were going mythic just to get the 2 extra levels of power. It is really not worth it.


everyone in pathfinder world is ambidextrous. there no such thing as right handed or left handed or what ever 3rd or 4th hands would be called characters. There is only two weapon fighting with invisible number of hands of 2 or more for multi weapon fighting creatures that have 3 or more. The FAW BBT posted sum it up, that unless you are two weapon fighting to get the extra attack or attacks via multi weapon fighting, there are no penalty or reduced power attack/str or dex damage. As long as you stay with in your normal number of attacks caused by your base attack bonus you are not two weapon fighting.

the faq give you example of it in play

"Let's assume you're a 6th-level fighter (BAB +6/+1) holding a longsword in one hand and a light mace in the other. Your possible full attack combinations without using two-weapon fighting are:
(A) longsword at +6, longsword +1
(B) mace +6, mace +1
(C) longsword +6, mace +1
(D) mace +6, longsword +1 "

bold section is rule/FAQ citation you are looking for. This is tell you it does not matter what hand it is in, see example A) normal is long sword attack twice, but look at B) they has mace listed twice which is in the other hand, and the bonus are the same. and in C and D show you even further that it does not matter by mixing the weapon attacks up. off handed does not come up until you actual two weapon fighting as seen later in the FAQ. If off hand did exist you would see -8 to the attack rolls on mace or long sword a -10 for long sword if it where in the off handed in example A and B and again in example C and D for what ever attack the was in the off handed. but you don't you see the same exact numbers, this means there is no off hand.


Taube wrote:
KainPen wrote:
I stand corrected, on max hp at level 1, but this was not an actual rule before the 5th printing of the rule book. So for the first 4 prints of the CRB it was the exact same as 2nd edition and 3.X. 3.x introduced the max hp at first level in RPGA organized play. It was more than likely carried over in the PFS and then added as official rule in the 5th printing to make the game a little easier at 1st level for non organized play.
No. Having a first printing CRB in hand right now, check common terms, page 12, Hit Points (hp): "A creature gains maximum hit points if its first Hit Die roll is for a character class level."

Thank I looked for that for years and could never find it, I thought I saw it somewhere but could never find it again. Though I imaged it and made it house rule in my games because it made sense and seemed fair. I have played with GMs that did not realize it was there and ever time I would look for it even now I could not find it. It must have been over looked by a lot of people, must be why the added it to step 6 on p.15 of character creation rule on the 5th printing. That where it should have been to start with.


thejeff wrote:
KainPen wrote:
ParagonDireRaccoon wrote:


You rolled for hit points at level 1. You could have 1 pt max.
the rolling 1 for hp still here today, roll the dice add con bonus if any or apply minus if any for minimum of 1. there is no rule in pathfinder that’s says you get max hp or half hp. Those are house rules or rules for organized play such as pathfinder society.
Max hp at first level is a PF rule. Average Hp for other levels is a PFS rule.

I stand corrected, on max hp at level 1, but this was not an actual rule before the 5th printing of the rule book. So for the first 4 prints of the CRB it was the exact same as 2nd edition and 3.X. 3.x introduced the max hp at first level in RPGA organized play. It was more than likely carried over in the PFS and then added as official rule in the 5th printing to make the game a little easier at 1st level for non organized play.


Lazar you are talking about creating all new spells. That did not exist the players hand book. existing spell could be research from other friendly wizard or captured spell book, much like today. Such as makeing a ice version of fireball spell or something completely new.

p.30 of the original 2nd edition players handbook stated wizard must find his own source for magical knowledge: library, guilds, or captured books and scroll.

whenever a wizard discovers instructions for a spell he doesn't know, he can try read and understand the instructions. The player must roll percentile dice. If the result is = to or less than the percentage chance to learn new spell. (see int chart) the character understands the spell and how to cast it. He can enter the spell in his spell book. but you are limited to the number of spell you can put in your spell book by your int. it cost no money. If you had to pay money if was GM ruling and house rule or maybe a charge for guild/library access. it was total do able while traveling. Specialist wizards actual learn a new spell automatically much like today. 1 spell of their specialist school every time you leveled. p.32 of players hand book. They also gained 15% bonus chance to learn spell of their school. so unless you had a really low int.


ParagonDireRaccoon wrote:

A few more problems with 2E, and a bit of nostalgia:

You rolled for hit points at level 1. You could have 1 pt max.

Wizards didn't automatically learn spells when they leveled up, you might go several sessions after attaining a new spell level before learning any spells.

You rolled for what spells you knew as level 1 mage (wizard). The upside is you got really creative, finding offensive uses for Tenser's Floating Disc.

Clerics had spheres, and might not have access to healing spells.

In 1E the Illusionist, Druid, and Bard were really cool (never saw anyone actually become a bard though). In 2E they didn't exist or were kind of lame.

One of the big things 3E and PF lost from 1E/2E imo is the bigger world- adventures scale for the players, it can feel like a videogame with levels customized for your group. In 1E/2E there were areas with more dangerous random encounter tables, it created a sense of a world that is bigger than the players. The scaling of 3E and PF is good in some ways, but you know encounters will usually range from - to + 3 APL. Escaping and surviving an encounter with a lich at low levels would lead to a story your group might tell for years.

where does everyone come up with this stuff, you guys all must have never actual read the rules or got stuck with GMs that did not or house ruled everything.

the rolling 1 for hp still here today, roll the dice add con bonus if any or apply minus if any for minimum of 1. there is no rule in pathfinder that’s says you get max hp or half hp. Those are house rules or rules for organized play such as pathfinder society.

Yes now you learn a new spell every time you level, but back then you did not have to pay any money to scribe a scroll in your spell book, you rolled your scribe chance and was done with it. scrolls where the most common treasure next to potions. Also there research option which also did not cost any money to learn spell, the only requirement to learn a spell was GM approval of said spell.

Druid where almost identical from 1st to 2nd edition. They were actual made better in 2nd edition. The only difference was in 2nd edition they had 20 level of progression with extra power gave at level beyond 14th (most of these add power existed today and make the druid the beast that it is today.) and not limited to 14 level. The beat a druid higher then you rules were there in 1st edition also, you just did not have as many of them.

The illusionist was very different in 1st edition, it but weaker and restricted more normal spell casters, but they required a little less exp required to level. But they had no access to 8th level or higher spell, 2nd edition changed them to full fledge casters. Giving them full casting in exchange for the same number of skill points, huge improvement to them and extra bonus spell per day.

Bards where insanely different in 1st edition and more complex as it require class shifting/ dual classing they were like some sort of weak prestige class. Thus why they may have seem cool , by the time there became bard and had equal levels in all the class they gain access to all that old stuff again. All you really got any different from 2nd edition from 1st was the charm ability. 2nd made this class insanely better, reduced the amount of xp to level, reduce ability score requirements to the class enter the class, made it accessible at level 1. Not after doing 5 levels of fighter, then 8 levels of theif, then 5 to 9 levels of druid. By the time you did all this you be way behind the rest of the party. You have to be 8th level bard before having access to all your fighter, thief and druid abilities. 2nd edition roll all the thief abilities in to the bard from the ground up. And you could still dual class in 2nd edition and make this crazy bard build if you wanted.

You are very accurate on the world scale of adventures loss in the newer version and also scale of encounters, but like you said surviving the lich in encounter at low levels does make for a huge story that people tell for a long time. I have not gotten story like that in 3.x game yet. The stories have changed to remember when I TEA bagged that lich cause it was such a wuss. Or when I one hit that guy who was he again at the end of this dms game and pissed the dm off.


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KestrelZ wrote:

Second edition D&D wasn't as easy to learn for some as 3.0 was. The following is just opinion talk on behalf of myself and some of my longer lived RPG friends, and I should add the caveat that it is biased. -

1. THACO, To hit armor class zero. Basically this was the old armor class system, where lower numbers are more desirable. Players wanted to have a negative armor class number. Players new to the game, or mathematically challenged experienced players loved that Palladium Fantasy had a simplified Armor Rating you would have to exceed with your rolls, and this also happened with 3rd edition. (Yes, I preferred Palladium Fantasy to 2nd edition D&D. It was 3.0 light in many ways from the mid-80s until 3.0 was invented).

2. Race and class restrictions. Third edition allowed any race to play any class, even if there was a "favored" class. Second edition restricted certain races from playing specific classes. There were no elven paladins in second edition by RAW.

3. No feats and few skills in second edition. Most skill checks were abstractions or class features. No second edition thief, no ability to open locked doors without magic / bashing them. Skills and feats in third edition made characters of the same class much more variable from each other. (though it unintentionally may have shortchanged the rogue by the time Pathfinder was released).

4. Second edition had time magic shenanigans. Very cool for the caster, a big headache for a GM. Seriously? You go back in time and negate four rounds of actions?

5. No challenge rating in second edition. Experienced payers and GMs could gauge what they could deal with. New GMs might do something like throw an elder red dragon at first level characters, and wonder why it was a TPK.

6. No gish in second edition. Seriously, mages could never hold a sword by RAW. Entire gaming groups made a game about how a party of mages could guide swords that were repelled from mages. Seriously, mages could never hold a sword because some law of nature in 2nd edition said...

all that is all a load of BS or a bunch of house rules you got stuck playing by.

1. yes little hard for mathematically challenged, but guess what you are still THAC0 today the only difference is the numbers where converted to positive numbers and now THAC0 is THAC20. all they did was invert the numbers to positive and add 10 to default base AC that is why you start with AC of 10 before mods. the math was actual easier when you look at it as there were not 10 types of bonus and they all stack. they only effected what they said the effected also. no second guessing like there is now with the feats having to search through books for feats.

2.yes there were a few but most of them made sense. actual there where optional rules to remove restriction and the level limits which most people did. there were several elf paladins add in option books. why would a dwarf in that system highly resistance to magic even beneficial cast spells it made no sense for them to be wizards. the magic would fail in there hands. so the exiled at being fighters.

3. skill selected was huge you just did not get a lot of points. with 60 of them in the general category alone. +10 to 20 more in each class based category which any one could take if they spent 1 extra skill point on. So it was made for people to work team to have all the skills covered. Theifs could open magic locks there was most often a huge penalty to do it, also thief had the ability to read scroll, thus could use knock scroll to open stuff. so that was a non issue, if you where not allowed to do GM must have had plot reason behind it. There was no need for feats , because most of them where just normal actions you can do also monsters had between 4 to 7 times less hp then do now so you did not need to have them so you can do 150 hp in a round because that as much hp as a god would have had.

4. I don't remember any of that at all expect time stop which does the same thing now as it did then. I actual use these today in my games from time to time to help save a party from TPK. so stuff happens even today.

5.yes no CR and yes a DM can do that and they still can. if you look the CR system has all but gone away in pathfinder. and moved to static xp system much like OMG 2nd edition. which is how you based encounters in 2nd edition on how much xp a creature was worth or story value (your not supposed to win every encounter sometimes you got to run). if you look at pathfinder difference compared to 3.x a lot of the changes were to bring back stuff from 2nd ed and 1st ed.

6. this one is total bs a wizard could use a sword at a -5 penalty for it. (Complete wizards guide ) Kit (or archtype as they are called now)Militant Wizard
Weapon Proficiency: Required (choose one from of the following): Battle axe, bow (any),crossbow (any), dagger, javelin, sling, spear, sword (any), warhammer. These are different from the weapons normally associated with wizards, but they are common for Militant Wizards. Also, see the Special Benefits section below.
strait out the book. There was also the elven blade singer which actual cast spell through there long swords. much like the magus of today.

Here here was the real problem with 2nd ed. aging and made for a niche mark of nerds.(not a lot of math challenged in that category or target audience)This market was very limit thus not a lot of sale. this is why TSR was going bankrupt was selling to wizards of the coast, would help them game system reach broader target audience which it has.

here are the really system flaws.

1. multi class system/dual class system was horrible. It was made much easier in 3.x just add this to that much like how 2nd edition magic system was. you did not have to take this or that at x level then take half hp blah blah, you would also classes would level at strange times and there was a bit of a power vacuum with multi class, but this was made that way because the level limit restriction. It was overly complex and honestly not need much. Even now it not need today and pathfinder is just making new class or archetype to take place of that core concept from level 1.

2. Xp leveling system no one level at the same time, This make a lot more sense now then it did to me back then. but would be considers a flaw do to the fact people like leveling at the same times as another players. And should be brought back but can't because the current simpler multi-class system. This is how the weaker classes like the fighters and rogue and monk who everyone complains about where = to the ranger, wizard, ect. because they leveled faster, not only was it easier for them to level because of lower xp numbers but also because they often only had one primary ability score making it easier for them to get bonus xp. meaning they where 1 or 2 levels higher then the stronger classes. putting them on even playing field with them. either in attack bonus or saves and so on. but like i said this system does not function with the current multi classing system so a huge balance whole in the classes has just showed up.

3. locked in action, this could lead to meta gaming by dm easily everyone stated what they where going to do before they rolled initiative expect by dm. DMs would often just adjust to players action and screw them over the ones he did not like or to make it way to harder. Or stupid mistakes by players could lead to wasted actions. much like original final fantasy and dragon warrior games on Nintendo this was removed thankfully in 3.x the ad help speed combat along with none wasted action.

4. game was ruled by weapon attacks unlike now is ruled by caster. there was no concentration, and casting was basically a full round action due to lock in effect I stated in number 4. you could not move and cast a spell and if the caster his hit at any point while casting a spell due to poor initiative roll spell was gone and wasted. This was fixed with concentration and then over powered by allowing movement. I say that because before weapon attackers were allowed to move and full attack every round. if they would have left the movement in for full attack weapon attackers would be a bit more balanced with casters. This I blame is on the time change of rounds went from a full minute to 6 seconds. the justification is you can move that far and full attack in 6 seconds. but a caster can sure enough move that distances dig in spell pouch filled with all kinds of crazy stuff in it. take out what he needs to cast a spell material components, possibly a focus also and wave his hands in the air and chant something in the same time a guy comes up to and swings once. and maybe even a 2nd time thanks to meta magic feats. see the huge unbalance there. realistic to balance this 2nd edition flaw all was needed the concentration check and reducing movement to and attack to limit in a round which they did anyway.

5.)Bad for organized play due to rules on character creation could lead to huge ability score swings and limit class selection. much better with point by systems

I am sure skills and powers/book line caused some issue, I never played with those books, but I have looked them over, and can tell they were early beta testing book for 3.0 feat system. If any strange spell stuff as mention above came from anything it was that horror. They only came out with in 5 years of each other and 2 years before wizards bought TSR. gee name of the company was called wizards top selling game was magic at the time, I wonder if that why wizards and spell casters where giving such huge buff and weapon based and skill based characters were given a quick kick in the nuts. Those books may have been more balanced if TSR would have published new monster books with similar changes to them much like we see in 3.x monsters. But considering they only had 2 years before going under those books total screwed up the system.

another thing to point out AD&D was made for team play with everyone fulling and individual role. See first party in this picture my friend sent me today. while 3.x on was made for the 2nd party where everyone can do anything and their is no team roles to play. a lot of it has become who ball are bigger game by building the stronger character doing more damage or who can come up with the craziest crap. (hence the larger target audience and larger number of sales.) Team play vs play now which I have to say I have seen those very combinations in party number 2 games I have played since playing 3.x only thing was missing was the ogre mage monk.

Both are good and have there charms and flaws. all depends on what you are in the mood for it you, want a good team based RPG play 2nd edition

but make a few house rules changes to fix the flaws
1. do not allow skill and powers line all other books are fair game.

2. remove multi class and dual classing. if your player has a concept he wants to be from level 1, build it chapter 3 of the dmg gives you everything you need to know to make a whole new class. the xp to level balance this class with other classes.

3. remove level limits, but give human race something use full like in 3.x games like +1 to any ability score but can't go past 18 and +1 extra skill and weapon proficiency. humans got nothing, back then so why would you play one unless you wanted to be any class or reach any level. that is all they had going for them. if other races had no level limits people would have never played human. That the whole reason behind class limitation and level limits.

4. add concentration to the game to help the spell casters out. full attacks and movement as not as bad as it would seem in this version as only fighters, rangers and paladins got more then one attack in a round and the number of them is still less then any 3.x edition.

5. totally optional add a point buy system for generation ability scores to be a bit fair to all players. I would recommend using 25 or higher point by strait out of pathfinder, the reason i say so high is cause in the old edition, you usual did not get any bonus from ability scores unless they where 15 or higher and even something then none. unlike the new one you start getting bonus with a score of 12 and it goes up a lot for every even increase. it will also help player make the character classes they want.

6. Give clerics spontaneous healing found pathfinder the ability to drop any prepare spell for equal level cure one. this will help save parties from TPK and will let the cleric do a bit more then healing.


adamantine is considered master work, so the DC is 20 same as all master work items but for special mat is the requirement from the start becasue they can't be anything but master work. So don’t treat as separate component because it is not. Works hastily add another 5 to the dc so you can get it done a little faster. Higher the dc the faster you craft.

mundane item crafting rules take forever, and are complained a lot about on these boards, your best bet for crafting anything made out of special mats is wizard with 5th level spell fabricate. Alchemy and poison crafting is fixed only for alchemist class, but is still slow process for every other class. There lots of traits and feats to give you bonus to this craft check, and reduce the cost of crafting making it go a little faster, but without a work shop and a dozen helpers it take forever.

I would not even worry about weapon blanche they are a waste of time and money, by the time you run into stuff with enough Dr adamantine to matter, you should have a +4 weapon and go right thought it. don't add anything extra to weapon, save money get +5 and never have to worry about most dr ever again.


never said it was broken, but they don't stack with each other, otherwise speed, would stack with haste and other similar effects, keen would stack with improved critical and other effects like it, evasion would stack with itself to grant improved evasion, enlarge person and beast shape don't stack with each other both are a polymorph effect, impact does not stack with lead blades and many more. It is the same effect use the exact same wording, sorc level become wizard level this can only be done once it is an over lapping effect. The only portion that stacks is when you actual take a wizard level.

look at it this way how many sorc levels do you have 4 right how many possible sorc level are there 4. How many sorc levels can be converted only 4. You can’t not have any more sorc level then you have(exception robe of arcane heritage increase it by +4). Since it is the same effect and fuction, you it over laps meaning you take the one with the highest possible level conversion. In this case it is neither one as sorc level is at -2 for total of 2.

Now if you take Arcane bloodline as primary and serpentine as feat. and you level 11 (have to be because of the feat) you have 11 total sorc levels to treat as wizard level.
So Arcane based Familiar is based off level 11 total wizard level, serpentine as feat would be total character level -2 = total possible sorc level is 9, serpentine familiar says your sorc level -2 so you’re looking at total possible of 7. Which is greater since this is the same effect the 11 so it treated as level 11.

Now take the same example above but change him into Sorc4 Wiz6 for the again what is the total number of sorc levels are there 4. But because the way the feat function the total for the feats concern is 9 because total character level 11-2. Now we take another -2 off serpent power gives 7 which is greater 4 or 7 the 7. So effected sorc levels are 7 now you add the actual wizard levels because that is what stacks actual wizard levels for 7+6= 13, you just broke the level limit, that is the only way to do it, because these effects are the same.

Other interesting effects, take arcane as your bloodline and pick bonded object then serpentine as bloodline, guess what you just end up with bonded object and familiar.


Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:
Kyton Spawn with the Pit-Touched sorcerer bloodline.

my friend is doing this in my game right now, he also took Eldritch heritage feats. he has got +6 to str and con from this, Wings, posion immunity, good resistances, extra summoning of fiendish creatures. he skill focus knowledge planes was not as bad feat tax as he uses it often and it was one of his bloodline bonus feats for pit-touched.


For whatever reason I though the arcane bloodline just gave you a familiar (did not realize it changed your sorc levels in to wizard levels). I had never seen serpentine bloodline before, So I figured it just gave you a familiar also. hence why I said 2. but they both preform the same function change sorc levels in to wizard levels. this is an effect, so you can't double up and pass the level limit as you stated. the effect overlaps as all other effects do and you take the highest bonus in this example it is the same bonus. if starting bloodline was arcane and not serpentine. you would use that instead as arcane as there is no loss of levels. but it does become strange with the feat and multi classing as a wizard, then it would be possible to break the level limit.


my suggestion to you would be infernal bloodline and do lawful evil, they are the easiest to fit in with a good party, why would they preform good act, as mr.sin pointed save the princess to gain political favor, or to get information to blackmail someone they hate or want to remove from power. being lawful you going to have some kind of code you look up to or follow so you are less likely to betray your good comrades. One of the Icon pathfinder heros is lawful evil. I find Abyssal bloodline works better if taken as secondary bloodline, via Eldritch heritage feats.


I just looked at both bloodline and I was wrong but, they don't stack because they use the same wording one give you a familiar or bonded object with Sorc levels = to wizard level, and stacks with any wizard levels you gain. (because this is coming from a feat it is treated as 2 levels lower).

the other gives you a familiar at Sorc level = to wizard level -2 and stacks with any actual wizard levels you have. it the exact same wording. There for it does not stack with itself, you can't double dip. but if you do go up as a level of wizard you it does stack. which may cause some stange effect with the feat, becasue the feat is based on total character level.

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