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Genie

Kain Darkwind's page

Goblin Squad Member. Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber. 1,537 posts. 3 reviews. No lists. 1 wishlist.


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You can also disintegrate the door or break it down, Leesus. The door as an obstacle isn't the important part of the scenario. I'm specifically trying to figure out whether or not greater teleport can specify 'other side of door' as a valid location.


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My party is coming down a hallway in a strange building. They come to a locked door which they cannot open. They judge the door to be of high, but not abnormal thickness, say one foot thick.

Because they have not seen the other side of the door and do not know what lies there, they cannot use teleport or greater teleport to bypass it, which require a 'reliable description'. They can however, use dimension door to do so, by specifying a direction and range.

Is this correct?


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Alternately, possibly the little dot down the road from Balentyne is the city of Aldencross. Not having read the adventure (because I'm playing through it and like to be surprised), I can't say for sure what direction or distance it mentions the fort being from the city, but I do know that the longest tunnel in use today is 80 some miles long, and the longest tunnel in use for non-water is about half of that. It seems shocking that an escape tunnel would be anything approaching either of those lengths.


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Found this while looking futilely for a thread to ask Wes about how Paizo determines which devils get full bestiary status. (Was wondering why the magaav made it, and the gaav didn't, while the levaloch, ayngavhuals and salikotals have been entirely left out.) Is it because they didn't feel compelling, or what? AP #26 was a long time ago for an outsider to linger.

I love the idea of a devils revisited book, BUT...I would actually not like it to be a direct mirror of Demons Revisited. By that, I mean the classic devils are awesome, and I would love seeing more on them, but the new PF devils seem to be largely ignored, with a few exceptions. Other than the statblock where they appear, deimaviggas, puragaus, advodaza...these guys aren't even mentioned in the hierarchy of Hell bit in Princes of Darkness. (I know, some of them didn't exist then) I feel the entire B-lineup of devils is begging to be explored in greater detail. Malebranche, for instance, are sort of begging to be mythic rank cornugons.

I love devils. I co-authored Gates of Hell because I love them so much. I'd just also love to see more than our classic Bestiary 1 devils get some additional treatment.


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I'm going to go ahead and say, no, the developers of the game did not intend for the position that it is good aligned to torture the non innocent to be valid and not wrong. If they call me out and say otherwise, I'll cheerfully admit I was wrong and wipe the egg off my face.


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the secret fire wrote:
Coriat wrote:
the secret fire wrote:
There is really very, very little resembling a D&D Bard in any actual mythology or even in "early" modern fantasy fiction (by that, I mean starting with the 1800's novels which sort of opened the genre and going through writers like Tolkien, Lewis and Le Guin).
Nope, no bardic nonsense in any of those authors, no sir.
What part about "very, very little" is unclear to you? It does not equal zero. Considering how many...cough...wonderful...cough...elven "songs" pop up in Tolkien's writing, it's not at all surprising that one of his many Elven characters is described once as singing in combat. That doesn't make it any more than an obscure sideshow in his oeuvre.

Oh, I was going to argue, but then you made the point yourself. You not caring for the rich and storied history of fantasy being interwoven with bardic music and lore doesn't actually equate to it not existing.


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Scavion wrote:
Coriat wrote:
Scavion wrote:

Theodur for what it's worth, I think your inquisitor is still in the green.

He knows the bad guy is evil. He lacks evidence for a conviction so he gets the bad guy to confess through torture. That's clearly against the law but I don't believe it goes against the end goal of "Putting evil behind bars." I'd sign up for team Chaotic Good or even Neutral Good.

I have to sincerely disagree.

Torture - hurting and oppressing.

Front and center in the basic Pathfinder definition of evil.

Alignment, Good Vs Evil wrote:
Good Characters and Creatures protect innocent life.
Im afraid your definition differs from the text.

Well, fear not, because I found that you just don't know how to look things up.

Evil wrote:
Evil implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others.
Coriat wrote:
Torture - hurting and oppressing.
Webster wrote:

Torture - the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty.

to afflict with severe pain of body or mind


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LOL I was going to suggest brawler when I read this OP. Nicely done, Mechapoet.


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I mean, we haven't parsed out precisely whether

-beating someone with your fists.
-pulling someone's teeth out with pliers.
-keeping someone awake and in an uncomfortable cell for a few days
-keeping someone awake and in an uncomfortable cell for a few years
-threatening to kill someone's loved ones
-actually killing someone's loved ones
-lying to someone and making them believe you've killed their loved ones.
-starvation
-the rack
-rape
-flensing
-throwing a spitball at someone's face every day for four years
-tying someone up with a rope and holding them very close to a lethal source of damage
-waterboarding

Etc, are torture, if used for interrogation.


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Rysky wrote:
Weirdo wrote:
@Mikaze - Sorry, I think most of us were too busy trying to explain that "torture is evil even if you're pretty sure the victim is guilty/evil" that we missed out on "rape is evil even when it's a horribly contrived situation designed to give your character permission to rape."
No such thing. Ever.

Between the rapist and the victim, obviously not, since that is what distinguishes the crime from consensual sex.

Between the rapist and other institutions he holds in authority, it (permission to rape) can exist. For instance, laws that decriminalize it, or a slave owner, etc. As Obi-wan Kenobi said, "it was true, from a certain point of view"

Blackbloodtroll wrote:
Are we noting a difference between physical, and psychological torture?

I don't think people have gotten into what actually constitutes torture. Just that torture is evil.


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Theodor Snuddletusk wrote:

LazarX;

Raw that is true. But the way my group play and how i feel the game should be played, there are always exeptions based on setting or circumstances.

If the witch has cast a spell that if she is a virgin (live or dead) at 00.00 than the demon prince nesguch is summoned onto the mortal plane. Than you cant kill her or reson with her.

One of the ways that can be solved is for the good alligned charracter to make sure she no longer is a virgin. Forcefully so.
Evil act no. Kind or cuddle, no. But not evil.

"Lawful Good is the best alignment you can be because if you are really sure about it, raping a witch is perfectly permissible."

Are you even hearing yourself anymore? First off, reasoning with her sounds like a fuggin' GREAT idea, since you can't kill her. Undoing the ritual. Getting her to willingly give up her virginity in remorse. Or if all else fails, getting humanity ready to fight the demon prince Nesguch. But raping her not evil? Absolutely evil. And frankly, you're going to have to make a better case than you have that it is even the lesser of two evils.


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Theodor Snuddletusk wrote:

The problem with torture in Pathfinder is that while in this world you have your law and order, even in the smallest redneck town. And there is always some way to make things right.

In pathfinder there often is no way.

If the lord of the land is an evil greedy bastard, and he has enough money to give him the power of law, than it is not so easy to get the proof needed to make him drop.

And than who is to take him down, and even further what will stop his friends of not killing your good-aligned ass with law in hand?

This is where torture can (in the eyes of my inquisitor) be used. When proof is good, when you know he is evil, when there are none other than yourself to stand up for the weak and wounded.

Than you get the lord of the land, find the paper with all the accusations you have, and the proof you have gathered, and make him sign it. Because in court there will be no justice, if you just turn your back the weak will still be broken by the man. But with a signed paper in hand, and the proof to back up your claims, than even the highest, most powerful landlord can be sentenced to death.

If all that it takes is for one man to torture the final signature out of him, to ensure the safety of the land, to ensure the power of unbribed law, than it is needed.

"Lawful Good is the best alignment because it combined honor with compassion. Also if someone gets in your way and they are wrong, you can torture or beat them until they give into your demands."


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"What is going to happen in the future" is probably not a question torture reveals a true answer to, I think most of us would agree. Not sure what more merit that 'counterpoint' has, Lazarx.


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Nerf (New Material)
Forged from foam in some fell laboratory, this ultrasoft material immediately detracts from the quality of a weapon or suit of armor. Weapons fashioned from nerf deal no damage except on a critical hit. A critical hit deals normal damage, but nonlethal. Armor made from nerf grants its wearer a -4 penalty on Diplomacy checks and provides no armor bonus. Nerf is so costly that weapons and armor made from it increase the DC to convince parents to purchase it by 10 ; the cost is included in the prices given below. Ammo made from nerf can be reused multiple times, but locating a piece of ammo after firing it requires a Perception check DC 35 and 1 hour of effort per 10x10 square.

Weapons and armor normally made of steel that are made of nerf have one-tenth their normal hit points. Nerf has 1 hit points per inch of thickness and hardness -1.


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You are mixing up in order to nerf houses with ordering nerf houses.


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Abraham spalding wrote:

You cannot give consent while drunk.

Consent must be obtained or the act is forced.

Drunk has a legal definition. Consent has a legal definition, and you cannot consent while drunk. If you do not have consent then the act is not willing.

This is a basic point everyone needs to get into their heads.

Does this mean that you didn't do something that put you in the situation? No. But that doesn't excuse the other persons behavior either.

If I leave my house open and you take something from it you have still robbed me. I made it easy but you are still a robber.

Consequently if I get drunk I cannot give consent. If I do not give consent and you do it anyways you are a rapist.

My idiocy does not give you the right to my possessions.

I'm with Marcus here. If I walk up and see you on the street, and your 'idiocy' is causing you to give away your material possessions, and I take one in good faith, not realizing you are an idiot, I am definitely not a thief. If I walk up and realize your idiocy and take advantage of that, I'm a predatory scumbag, but it is debatable whether or not I am an actual thief.

It seriously trivializes rape to suggest that two people who meet up at a bar and go home to have enjoyable and consensual (in the actual definition of the word, not simply the legal context) sex have raped each other, or one has raped the other. It certainly seems less dubious than someone who lies about their true attitudes towards the relationship, or someone who lies about their own accomplishments in order to make a relationship seem more attractive, and neither of the latter situations are considered rape.


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Abraham spalding wrote:
Drock11 wrote:

I'm of the opinion that charm spells and similar things don't become de facto cheap domination effects just because a charisma check is made. It's a very badly worded vague portion of the spell and that part of it should never have been added into it if for no other reason than the confusion and arguments it can create.

In that it is the same as boozing someone up. In the world in which I operate if you booze someone up then sleep with them it is rape, if you use charm person to sleep with them then it is rape.

At least with the booze they could have not drank.

Making the argument that boozing someone up and sleeping with them the same as rape either false, or changing the definition of rape to lose the meaning that invests it with the emotional context its connotations imply.

Voluntarily impairing your judgement does not render your judgements null and void.


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*Will* Will get you killed. Verifying false information could always get you killed. And for the evil overlord, an expendable minion is no meaningful cost.

I'd say that provides the fairly large subset of areas which caused me to rate it at 5, personally. I think everyone knows 24 is bunk. But the pendulum swinging all the way left isn't that accurate either.


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Ok, that explains things a bit better, DMW, and I'll read your posts in the future under that understanding. So to summarize your position...

Torture is great for hurting people, making them afraid, making others around them afraid, and for ultimately breaking them into shards of the human (or elf/orc/dwarf) being they used to be. Of these qualities, making others afraid is probably the only useful one to interrogation.

Torture is of minor use in interrogating someone, because it eliminates more effective and efficient methods, produces unreliable info, and is only slightly more revealing than doing nothing at all or just asking a question.

Torture is evil. There are interrogation techniques that are mean and of dubious ethical quality that are not torture.

That solid?


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*Looks at OP.*

Huh. I guess I really did drunk dial Paizo MB last night. Awkward.


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So if I build a modest three story house, with four 10x10 ft. rooms per floor, divided by regular old masonry walls...

twelve 10x10 sections per floor, times three floors. Four more for a floor times four to make three floors and a roof, equals 16 plus the 36 before. 52.

Plus a front door and a back door, and doors to the four bedrooms on the second floor, and a door to the attic/third floor. Seven doors.

4,750 hit points. Hardness 8 for most of it.

We need to nerf houses.


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Deadmanwalking, I think most of us agree torture is evil.

And I think most of us agree that it is not the most effective means to get reliable information.

I think the disconnect is here. If torture were rated in effectiveness for procuring information, on a scale of 1 to 10, what score would you give it?

24 would give it a 10. Most of us disagree.

You, from what I gather of your posts, would give it a 0, ranking it below 'doing nothing at all' and 'actively helping the individual lie to you.'

Most of us disagree. I'm inclined to rate it a 4-5, myself.


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I would never count on a party to do anything, especially one I didn't know.

Do your players like skill challenges? Turn the trap into one. If they don't, I think him just wrapped in chain and locked is simple enough, my conjurer used her dimensional steps to take him out of it without messing around with locks and such.

(Warning: there is some R rated language, and possible triggers for those sensitive to such here. The demons were not painted as anything less than absolutely vile.) If you are curious about the cast of characters, head over here, a simple search for any of the names, including Olangru, will turn up their page.

The Scene:

<DM> Dark Creatures of the Isle Theme

This huge chamber is watched over by five hideous statues. To the east and west stand four towering demonic ape statues in alcoves, facing a roaring fire pit in the room's center. On the opposite side of the room is an even larger stone statue. Possessing the stout, stylized body of an ape, this twelve foot tall statue has two stone tentacles where each of its arms should be. Sprouting from its shoulders are two fanged baboon heads. The statue lords over the room atop a great dais, staring out in frozen rage.

Urol dangles 40 feet above the floor of the room, above a giant fire pit, suspended by chains that connect to a winch on the east wall of the room, ten feet above the floor. He whimpers and cries for help. "You came, yes...yes? Not a trick, no...no?" His voice is painful and he has been stripped of his clothing and a great deal of his flesh as well.

<Heinrick> "We're here, Urol."

<Katrina> "Keep away from the pit, if you get close it'll scorch you." Katrina whispers to the others.

<DM> Within the room stands a massive ape, hefting a huge bone club, flanked by two smaller apes. Near the dais, Olangru stands, hefting Tnuc by her throat.

<Olangru> "You have failed me for the last time, B~#*%. Did my lesson to Oonta go unheeded?" He looks up casually as the heroes enter the room. "Redeem yourself, Oonta. Kill them. Or die trying."

<Tnuc> "I'm Tnuc!" she screams in rage.

<Tainthorn> Taint advances on the closest ape with his magically enhanced speed, bringing his blade down on it.

<Olangru> "B$#&*, you are who I say you are," he says, cuffing her across the face.

<Tainthorn> Tainthorn's blade practically disembowels the ape he cuts into.

<Heinrick> Heinrick pulls a bottle from his backpack and drinks it as he steps forward.

<Olangru> Olangru grins and vanishes from sight.

<Heldin> The dwarf steps forward, and casts his final spell, imbuing Heinrick with Moradin's resilience.

<Katrina> Katrina calls on her celestial apes, burning one of her most potent spells to do so. They attack the closest demon apes.

<DM> The fiendish apes scream in fury but are torn apart by their celestial counterparts. Both fall in a spray of black unholy blood. Which splashes on Heinrick. Missing Tainthorn, even.

<Tnuc> Tnuc springs towards the fray screaming in an unholy tongue. Another bar-lgura tears its way through a hole in reality, leaping upon Tainthorn.

<New Bar-lgura> "Die at the six fingered hands of the bar-lgura, mortals!"

<Heinrick> "No."

<Bar-lgura> Its claws tear through Tainthorn's armor, drawing dark blood to the wound. (11 damage)

<Korak> "Korak kill." The massive ape demon shuffles towards one of Kat's apes, and swings its massive club against its skull. (38 damage) The ape vanishes from this plane.

<Tainthorn> Tainthorn unleashes a flurry of attacks at the new Bar-lgura

<DM> His flurry is largely useless, although he does catch the new arrival in the chest with his horns, seemingly by accident. Blood flies from her wound.

<Heinrick> Heinrick tucks and rolls under the guard of the new bar-lgura, slashing it as he comes up.

<DM> He skips past her by the skin of his teeth. His blade slows as it passes through her body, once again catching on the supernatural resistance of the demon without Heldin's spell to bolster it. Still, ichor and gore do splatter his body with the blow.

<Urol> Urol screams as he begins to lower slowly towards the flames, the winch suddenly coming free.

<Heinrick> Displaying courage if not prudence, Heldin rushes the summoned demon, bashing it with his hammer.

<DM> His blow is dodged by the demon.

<Katrina> Katrina dimension steps above Urol, trying to catch herself on the chains holding him.

<DM> She deftly catches herself on them.

<Katrina> The apes move in to pound the summoned demon.

<DM> The first ape, its hands full of holy power, tears out the heart of the summoned bar-lgura. The demon's skeleton tears itself free of its flesh, takes three steps and then crumbles to dust.

<Katrina> The second ape moves to stand beside Heinrick, watching his right against the invisible demon still lurking.

<Tnuc> Tnuc leaps across the fiery pit, lashing at Heinrick and the apes flanking him. Her claws scrape without effect against Heinrick's armor, but she catches one ape (ape 2 - 12 damage) in the throat and bites at the other, sinking her teeth into its shoulder. (5 damage)

<Korak> Korak looks up at Kat and Urol on the chain as if measuring whether he can hit them. Thinking the better of it, he moves to bring his bone weapon down against one of the celestial apes, roaring his rage. (33 damage)

<Tainthorn> Tainthorn steps over the fallen demon ape and attacks the giant before him.

<DM> His sword tears into the gigantic beast, cutting it from its stomach to its collar bone, yet it remains defiant and roars furiously at the hollow.

<Tainthorn> He smiles at it, "I've seen worse at the breakfast table." He cocks his head at Heinrick, "Course they were eating souls."

<Heinrick> "Little too much information, pal," Heinrick says with surprising casualness, as he steps up and joins the other in carving the giant ape. His massive sword strikes out with impossible speed...

<Korak> Korak has no time to even scream before Heinrick's blade cleaves him from this world. His ruined corpse crumples to the ground, heaving up gouts of blood. All over Heinrick.

<Heinrick> "Gods, I'm going to need a bath after this trip."

<Urol> Urol's chain continues moving closer to the fire, and he screams as his feet begin to burn. (3 fire damage, plus he has caught on fire)

<Heinrick> "Kat, get him out of there!"

<Bar-lgura> A summoned bar lgura appears behind Heldin, tearing into the dwarven cleric. Her claws send blood spraying. (19 damage)

<Heldin> "Aagh, ya bastard!" He replies in traditional dwarven fashion; a hammer to the face.

<DM> The hammer barely fazes the creature, as it bats aside one blow and laughs at the impact of another. It s%#&s where it stands, scratching its arse and sniffing its fingers.

<Katrina> Katrina grabs ahold of Urol and dimensional steps them both out from above the flames in a single motion, setting him down in the corner and drawing her blade to advance on the Bar-lgura fighting Heldin. "Hey ugly." The calls to it as she approaches. The last remaining celestial ape lays into Tnuc, channeling holy power.

<DM> The ape's first blow crosses Tnuc's eyes, but she catches its other fist in her claw, crushing its hand, forcing it slowly to its knees. (21 damage) Its fangs snap futilely at its tormentor.

<Tainthorn> Taint turns on the demon attacking Heldin

<DM> Turns on and flays, his blade sticking similarly to Heinrick's in the demonic body. Her skin peels away and she screams, flinging the defication on her hand at Taint's face. He ducks, the s*$# splattering on Heinrick's head instead.

<Heinrick> "You and me have some unfinished business, shaggy-b@!++. This is for yanking me out of the fight," *slash* "this is for dropping me in the hole," *slash* "and this is just for being ugly." *slash*

<DM> Tnuc screams in pain as the blade cuts her left arm off, then her right. She lunges at his face with her fanged maw, before melting into a pool of black tarlike ichor.

<Heinrick> He watches her expire, then shouts, "Hey, Olangru! I was supposed to pass on a message to you."

<DM> Silence greets his challenge...clearly Olangru isn't as willing to compromise his invisibility as Heinrick was.

<Heinrick> "Oonta wanted you to know... she sold you out. She helped us get here by telling us how to get around your dumbass traps. And she's waiting for you back where you pieces of s@@& came from."

"Aw, did I touch a nerve there, big fella?" Heinrick says, in the direction of the eastern side of the chamber. "Don't worry, you'll have a chance to talk it over with her, real soon."

<Bar lgura> The summoned bar lgura leaps at Heldin and Tainthorn, slashing and snapping. Its claws are futile, but its teeth close over Heldin's flank, tearing flesh free. (6 damage)

<DM> A globe of darkness drops over everyone's head.

<Heldin> Heldin, knowing his weapon is useless in this fight, stumbles in the darkness away from his attacker.

<DM> Heldin trips and falls on his face as he tries to manuever in the darkness.

<Katrina> Katrina calls on the celestial realms again to bring forth the least of the Archons. She calls out in celestial and a moment later the darkness is gone.

<Urol> Urol huffs and puffs on his feet, but is unable to put out the flames. He screams in agony.

<Katrina> The ape advances on the last demon visable.

<DM> The ape batters away at the bar-lgura, but to little avail, although it continues defecating with every blow landed, solid or not.

<Heinrick> "Heldin, help Urol!"

<Tainthorn> Taint moves past the remaining demon and tries to help Urol beat out the flames

<DM> He catches a lucky claw in the shoulder as he moves. (7 damage)

<Heinrick> "What, are you scared to come out, Olangru? I guess I should have told Oonta she didn't have anything to worry about, wanting revenge on such a big wuss. Come on, what do you got left to lose? Show me what you're made of!" Heinrick taunts the leader, as he steps over the downed Heldin, and lays into the last of the summoned demons.

<DM> The demon claps her six fingered hands together, catching his blade between them.

<Bar lgura> The bar lagura lashes out at all of those surrounding her. Heinrick's armor holds, but Heldin does not get his shield up in time. (9 damage). The ape has its throat torn out with a savage bite. The demon backs slowly away from those surounding her, snarling.

<Olangru> Then with a flurry of claws Olangru comes into view. Heinrick barely manages to duck the first claw, but catches the second right across his jaw. (34 damage). Heldin likewise takes a mouth full of fangs to the face. (20 damage) "So you like Oonta, do you? I'll rape you like her, see how you like that, big man! I will have my sacrfice!"

<Heinrick> The dwarf cries out in pain, but Heinrick merely grunts as he accepts the blow. "You won't have the chance. I'll send you back to whatever hell you crawled out of, just like I did her."

<Katrina> The archon casts aid on Urol. Katrina moves forward and casts slow on the remaining demons.

<DM> The spell fails against the monsters' resistance to arcana.

<Urol> Urol manages to put out the flames consuming his flesh with Tainthorn's help.

<Tainthorn> Tainthorn darts past Katrina and the demon ape then swings turns and swings at it.

<DM> Both the ape and Tainthorn miss with their attacks.

<Heinrick> Heinrick's crown taken from the gargoyle king begins to glow, as his skin seemingly turns to stone. His arms and blade are surrounded by an aura of destruction as he attacks Olangru.

<Olangru> The demon ape appears to use his forward momentum from having charged Heinrick to roll out of the way of the warrior's attacks, but he catches one firmly across the midsection, causing him to grunt in pain. "A thousand torments await you before the twin maws of my master, Meat!" Olangru leaps up and over Heinrick, kicking off his head to lash a claw at Katrina. "You stole my sacrifice!" (24 damage) He leaps away from the fray, easily dodging any attempt to hit him.

<Katrina> "What are you going to do about it coward? You won't even fight us, you hide behind your mates and invisibility!"

<DM> The cornered bar-lgura tries a similar escape. Her claw cuts into Tainthorn (9 damage) and she leaps away, evading Kat and Tainthorn.

<Heldin> The dwarf priest stands up, and gets his wounded self out of the fray.

<Katrina> Katrina mutters a quick spell and points, bathing both apes in golden dust, "Oops. No more invisibility to hide behind." The archon flys up and fires a beam at the summoned ape.

<DM> The summoned ape screams and claws at her eyes as the dust sparkles in them. Olangru merely snorts, brushing the irritance away.

<Tainthorn> Taint darts around the flame and under the floating archon, crossing the room to swing at the blinded ape

<DM> The archon's beam strikes the ape at the same time as Taint's blade cleaves the air next to its head.

<Heinrick> Heinrick runs around the flames, following the boss demon, and attacks him.

<DM> Once again, the demon ape uses its momentum to roll out of Heinrick's path, although he hardly needs it given Heinrick's poor footing and form with the blow.

<Olangru> "Keep running, Meat. Run, run, run!" Making a rude gesture at Heinrick, Olangru rushes to pounce on Tainthorn. His claws swipe into the fighter, tearing past his armor and shield. (18 damage, 25 damage)

<DM> Again, he easily evades any attempt of Heinrick's to attack him as he flees.

<Katrina> Katrina moves closer to the others and renews their haste while her archon fires two beams.

<DM> The archon catches the demon flat in the side of the head with its light blast, causing the ape to snarl and bat wildly at its attacker.

<Ape> The summoned ape sniffs at Tainthorn and swings wildly, missing the man. She takes a stumbling step backwards.

<Tainthorn> Tainthorn slides closer to the fire and attacks the demon ape leader.

<DM> His initial attack is successful, stabbing Olangru in his stomach, but the ape manages to bat aside all other blows, using his momentum to avoid any solid hits. As usual, the blade is less than optimum against the demon's hide.

<Heinrick> Heinrick follows the fleeing demon-ape, closing the distance and catching him between himself and Tainthorn.

<DM> His weight behind the blow, he misses badly, bringing his face within an inch of Olangru's puckering a#~~+$@+.

<Olangru> Olangru's summoned demon rushes behind Heinrick, similarly flanking the warrior, clawing the thick thewed half elf in the back. (9 damage) Olangru laughs and ducks between both Heinrick and Tainthorn, headed for Katrina. His claws and teeth shred the young wizardess apart, sending flesh and blood into the air. (65 damage) "Olangru will eat your pretty mate, Meat!"

<Heldin> "Get goin, boy. Wait fer us when ye see the big dead snake." Heldin pulls a potion from his pouch and starts cautiously edging towards the fray.

<Urol> The gnome looks towards the dark chambers beyond and stays right where he is, huddling in fear.

<Katrina> The summoned archon floats around Katrina's head pitifully. Under the archon's light Katrina comes to long enough to see the demon in front of her and vanishes, reappearing behind Heldin before falling unconscious again.

<Tainthorn> Tainthorn all but flies across the room to swing at the demon monkey.

<DM> Olangru laughs and ducks under his blade.

<Heinrick> "Kat! You're not eating anybody, you ugly piece of crap!" Heinrick runs around the other side of the pit, slashing Olangru again.
<DM> The heat scalds him as he goes. (2 fire damage) Ignoring the flames, he smashes into Olangru with all of the force of a runaway thunder beast, drawing a grunt of pain from the ape king for the first time in the fight.

<Olangru> "You stupid b%+#&! Get in there and fight!" Olangru screams at his summoned lackey, gesturing towards her even as he runs at her to slap her across the face. Her eyes clear and she charges towards Heinrick, ducking between his knees and springing at Heinrick. She grabs the dwarf, concentrates...and nothing happens.

<Heldin> "What the 'ell?" The surprised dwarf takes a step back away from the demon, and pours his healing potion into Katrina's mouth.

<Katrina> Katrina fires a handful of magic missiles at the demon before her even as she backs up against the wall. The archon floats around Heinrick and fires two beams of light at the demon before its summoner.

<DM> The beams miss. The missiles fade against the demon's spell resistance.

<Tainthorn> Taint charges past the demon to put himself between it and the two most wounded members of the party, swinging at the demon after he comes to a stop.

<Bar-lgura> The summoned demon lashes out as Tainthorn passes, catching him across the flank. (29 damage)

<DM> Tainthorn's blade is as ineffective on the demon's hide as her claws are on his.

<Heinrick> Heinrick continues to harry the chief demon-ape, following and striking again. "Never, ever again."

<DM> Despite his words, the flames burn Heinrick again. (3 fire damage) Heinrick's sword hangs in the air, crawling forward.

Olangru's Fall Theme

<Bar-lgura> Olangru's summoned demon grabs Heldin, this time disappearing and reappearing with the wounded dwarf on the north end of the room.

<DM> Heinrick's sword falls, slowly towards Olangru.

<Olangru> Olangru watches the blade descend, his lifetime of iniquity before him.

<DM> The blade falls....

<Olangru> Olangru remembers nursing at his foul mother's tit, being torn away for service to the master.

<DM> The blade falls.....

<Olangru> His service to the Two Headed One, falling out of favor, fleeing to this cursed jungle.

<DM> The blade falls....

<Olangru> His countless sacrifices under the blood moon, hundreds of hunters taken on the alter.

<DM> The blade falls.....

<Olangru> And this! The sacrifice that would have completed it all! So close!

<DM> The blade falls....

<Olangru> It isn't fair! Not fair!

<DM> The blade falls....

<Olangru> ...and as it strikes the six fingered ape demon, Olangru steps aside and holds forth his ring, sending a blast of force into his foe's face. (9 force damage, bullrushed) Ha! His victory will realized yet!

<DM> Heinrick tumbles backwards into the pit of fire. (15 fire damage)

<Olangru> Olangru lets out a laugh that cuts off, as his upper torso slowly slides off of his lower. A hole opens up in the fabric of the universe, and Olangru barely has time to scream before a pair of six fingered claws reach forth and drag him in. The tear closes with a squishy 'pop', which sounds nothing so much like a body being pressed like a grape. Olangru's ring and bracers clatter to the ground.
<DM> With a scream, Olangru's summoned demon vanishes as well.

<Heinrick> With a grunt of pain at the heat, Heinrick clambers out and away from the pit.

<Tainthorn> Tainthorn carefully helps Katrina to her feet.

<Katrina> She limps into the sacrifical chamber "Is it over?"

<Heinrick> "Everybody still with us?" Heinrick calls to the others.

<DM> Suddenly, a terrible noise fills the chamber....The main statue grinds into angry life. Its tentacles, despite being made of stone, sway and writhe, and its two fanged maws snap and gnash before unleashing a bone-shaking howl. It lurches towards the party with a speed that its stony bulk belies.

Temple of the Two Faced One Image

<Heinrick> "Okay... I'm not usually the one to suggest this, but I think we should run. It can't get out of the naga room, everybody else run. I'll hold it, and be right behind you."

<Heldin> "Bloody 'ell... this thing be the wellspring o' the evil fillin' the valley!"

<Katrina> Katrina inches forward and encases the dwarf, even as he speaks, in a globe of force. The archon bobs around Tainthorn's head before vanishing.

<Tainthorn> Tainthorn moves closer, ignoring the fire, but unwilling to charge into the glitterdust.

<Lemorian Golem> The two headed statue screams again, a blood curddling howl as it moves purposefully towards Heinrick. It makes a single tentacle attack against Heldin, its massive stone limb bouncing off of the sphere.

<Heinrick> "Or not... Guess we do it the hard way after all, then. Let's make this quick, ugly. I've had a long day already." Heinrick steps towards the stone titan, over Olangru's fallen adornments, and strikes at its legs and torso with his adamant blade.

<DM> His blade cuts into the stone creature, drawing a shower of sparks as it leaves a massive score across the creature's thigh.

<Lemorian Golem> Turning its full fury on Heinrick, the creature lashes into the warrior with all four tentacles. The tentacles wrap him up tightly, crushing him. (49 damage, grappled) He can feel their putrid touch trying to eat away at his body.

<Katrina> Katrina enlarges Heinrick to help him fight off the grappling golem.

<Tainthorn> Tainthorn, seeing his friend held in the monster's grasp, charges around the fire towards it.

<DM> His attack clangs nearly uselessly off the golem's thick stone body.

<Lemorian Golem> A tentacle lashes out at Tainthorn, wrapping him up like Heinrick. (16 damage) He feels the terrible rotting in his bones as well, but his enhanced constitution fights through it. However, the tentacles wrap him up as well in their grasp. The demon statue thunders ponderously into the flames towards the room's entrance. (22 fire damage, Taint, 11 fire damage Heinrick)

<Heinrick> Heinrick's magically increased size makes it easy to see that he is grievously wounded.

<DM> The flames lick at the golem as well, the creature is not immune to their heat.

<Heldin> "By Moradin's forge, lads! Save yerselves! Forget about me, go!"

<Heinrick> Heinrick struggles to escape the thing's stony grasp...

<DM> and barely manages to do so!

<Heinrick> He bobs and weaves backwards away from it.

<Heldin> The dwarf can be seen uncorcking a potion, preparing to fight to the death when released.

<Lemorian Golem> The golem lumbers around the flame, holding Tainthorn firmly in its tentacles, always in the fire.

<Heinrick> "Damnit, damnit, damnit! Urol, if you know any way to help, now's the time. If not, run for your life."

<DM> Katrina is overcome by fear as the creature looms in front of her, and screams in her face. The others shudder as the unholy howl comes forth, but their hearts stand firm.

<Katrina> <Katrina> Katrina steps between space and appears away from the golem, visibly shaken, "We're all going to die here..."

<Tainthorn> <Katrina> Tainthorn struggles in the golem's grip.

<DM> Struggles in vain.

<Tainthorn> he struggles some more

<DM> And finally pops free, only to fall into the fire pit.

<Lemorian Golem> The golem's tentacles are quick to lash out to retrieve its prey. Four tentacles pound away on Tainthorn, as the fire rages. (16 fire damage, 14, 13, 10, 12 damage) The demon statue's fithy rot does not manage to take root in his body however.

<DM> His body wilts under the assault, and he slumps to the ground in the firepit.

<Heinrick> "Urol! Get up, and go!"

<Urol> The gnome's eyes fly wide and he bolts as fast as his little legs can carry him.

<Heinrick> Heinrick pulls his last healing potion from his belt and drinks it as he watches the gnome flee.

<Heldin> The dwarf gulps down another healing shot, as well. Then, calling on Moradin for aid, he summons a connection between him and Heinrick, that protects the warrior. "Ay, give 'im whatfor, lad, this ol' dwarf's goin' home!"

<Heinrick> "Heldin... I'm sorry." Heinrick plants himself in the hall, vowing not to waste the dwarf's final gift.

<Lemorian Golem> The golem lashes out at the massive Heinrick as it approaches him, smashing him across the chest with his tentacle. (15 damage)

<Katrina> Katrina fights her fear and pulls out a scroll, quickly working it's magic on Heinrick.

<Heinrick> "Don't worry about me! Get out of here!"

<DM> The half elf vanishes from view. Tainthorn roasts in the fire pit. (21 fire damage)

<Lemorian Golem> The golem moves forward, lashing out at Kat, as its original target has vanished. (16 damage and grappled.) Bumping into Heinrick's invisible form, it lashes out trying to find the warrior as well, one of its tentacles finally driving home. (15 damage)

<Heinrick> Grunting in pain, and refusing to leave without Katrina and Urol gone before him, Heinrick lays into the stone monstrosity with all his might.

<DM> With one last ditch effort, Heinrick sets his massive blade in motion a final time. His friend's body burns in the pit to the north. His companion Kat lies dying in the creature's grasp. Urol is running like the useless frack that he is. Heldin awaits Moradin's welcome into Dwarfhome. The blade flies, enlarged, enhanced and sped by Katrina's magic, guided by Heinrick's fierce spirit and lands across the unholy golem like a divine judgement. The statue comes apart in a blast, crumbling into blocks of granite. An oppressive feeling that no one realized was bearing on their shoulders is lifted, and the foul taste in the air fades.

Victory over the Shrine of the Two Faced One

<Heinrick> "Ho... leeee... s~$$. That was a close one."

<Katrina> Katrina lays on the ground bleeding to punctuate the point.

<Heinrick> He sees Kat not responding, and kneels beside her, trying to staunch the flow.

<DM> His ministrations are successful. She seems safe, for now. Tainthorn's body continues to burn, the flames consuming it entirely.

<Heinrick> He sighs in relief. "Urol! You can stop running, I got it!"

<Urol> The gnome turns around, still naked, bloody and burnt. "H..h...Hero Heinrick? I...is this another trick, no no?"

<Heinrick> After a moment of leaning against the wall, he hoists himself to his feet, and gently carries Katrina back into the room. "Heldin, Taint, we're okay! ...T? Where are you?"

<DM> The smell of burnt flesh reveals Taint's fate.

<Heinrick> "It's not a trick, Urol, I promise. I've got your things here..." He sets down Katrina, and digs the gnome's clothes from his haversack, as he looks around for the husk. He closes his eyes in a grimace as his fate dawns.

<Urol> "L..l..ll..lady Katrina? Will she be ok, yes yes?" Urol pokes her still body, sending a flow of natural energy into her. (9 heal)

<Heinrick> "...you can heal people?"

<Katrina> Katrina stirs slowly, "Urol.... Heinrick?"

<Urol> "Oh me oh my!" Urol seems oblivious to his miracle. "L...lady Kat, you are awake, yes yes!" He exclaims, his naked gnome balls waving in her face.

<Heinrick> "Uh, Urol... here's your clothes back. You should probably put them on. Like, now."

<Katrina> "I take it you got it Heinrick." Katrina fishes with one hand for a hand up.

<Urol> Looking at the blood soaked rags, Urol makes his best attempt to cover himself with them, wincing painfully as the cloth catches in his sores.

<Heinrick> "Yeah, I got it. You okay in there, Heldin?"

<Heldin> The dwarf looks grimly at Heinrick and past him to the firepit. "It shoulda bin me, lad, not 'im."

<Katrina> Katrina finallys finds her feet and enters the demon shrine again.

<Heinrick> "You should have known him before that happened to him... I hope he's found some kind of peace, at least."

<Heldin> "Can a demon find peace, Lad?"

<Katrina> She dismisses the barrier around the dwarf with a weary wave of her hand.

<Heldin> "Th' evil's gone though...ye kilt it wi' th' statue."

<Heinrick> "He wasn't a demon... I don't rightly know what he was, or if there was anything like a soul in him. But a demon wouldn't have helped us, saved you and Skald and Quintal like he did."

<Heldin> "Maybe a demon can change, lad. 'E saved our lives, but...somethin was in him, eatin' 'im up. I hope 'e's found 'is peace, I do."

<Katrina> "At least he found death on his own terms, fighting for what he beleived in."

<Heldin> "No doubt, lass, no doubt. I just hope there's a place for one like 'im that ain't terrible t' go t'."

<Katrina> Katrina eyes the bracers and ring, "We should get out of here, back to the others. I don't want to linger in this place longer then we have to."

<Heinrick> Heinrick carefully skirts the firepit to retrieve the demon's jewelry. "Sounds good to me. Let's get going."

<Katrina> Katrina heads out, stopping only to collect the coins from the chest behind the throne.

<DM> Aside from Olangru's gear, a small crucible stands on the dais.

<Katrina> Katrina heads up to look at the crucible.

<Heinrick> "Heldin, can you tell if it's... evil?"

<Heldin> The dwarf shakes his head. "Looks like it was fer offerings o' some sort, lad."

<Katrina> "I'd rather not leave anything for the prince of demons and his temple." Katrina examines the crucible carefully.

<DM> It contains ashes and charred bits of pulverized bone. In the bottom lies a ring that seems to have been overlooked before the hand wearing it was tossed into the fire.

<Katrina> Katrina fishes out the ring.

<Heinrick> Heinrick looks faintly disgusted, then shrugs, deciding it's no worse than anything else he's seen here.

<Heinrick> "I'll go load up on those coins."

<Katrina> "I'll check it out when we get out of this hell hole." She follows him out, shepherding Urol.

<Heldin> Heldin brings up the rear.

<Urol> The gnome moves slower than normal, the familiar spring missing from his step.

<Katrina> Katrina makes no move to hurry him along, wincing herself as she walks.

<DM> The mirror portal has closed by the time the party gets back there, but a simple touch of the pane of glass reopens the portal from this side. The party makes their way out of the terrible shrine.

Upon exiting the shrine, you see that the fog is vanishing, almost completely burned off. The sound of birds, noticeably absent before, comes from within the jungle.

Avner and Amella are waiting near the entrance to greet them. The carved baboon heads that once formed the entrance seem to be slightly ruined.

<Heinrick> Heinrick leads the way, a pained expression on his face as he carries the heavy chest of gold and silver.

<Amella> "Y' found im!" Amella exclaims

<Katrina> "Yes, we found him."

<Heinrick> Heinrick grunts, and nods.

<Avner> Looking at the wounded state of the group, Avner exclaims, "Put that down, man, take it easy."

<Heinrick> He does, spilling some from the broken front. "Good idea."

<Katrina> "They're dead. The demons. The one's that attacked us earlier and more."

<Heinrick> "We found him. Killed the demons, and a big moving statue. Lost Taint."

<Avner> "Are you sure? What about the apes?"

<Heinrick> "Dead." Heinrick says between exhausted pants.

<Katrina> "All four demon apes from before, two more they summoned up, the giant one they had, dozens of little ones, and the half dozen lesser demonic apes, the Naga..." Katrina rattles them off.

<Avner> Avner nods at Heinrick's confirmation. "Ah...eh...good work, man."

<Amella> Amella shushes Kat. "Time enough fer tha' later, Nav, y' done good n' we know it. Let's get y' back t' camp."

<Katrina> Katrina follows Amella quietly.

<Heinrick> Heinrick picks up the chest again and follows.

<DM> Back at the camp, Skald and Quintal listen silently as they hear the news of Tainthorn's death. Tavey is absolutely wide eyed with wonder at the events, as is Blumpkin. Damri cooks up a meal to celebrate the victory. Only Urol is silent, staring off into the distance and shuddering every so often.


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Hey, that's great! My divine subtype need not be epic though...it works just as well being applied to a dire lion or an apple tree to make a 'small god'.

Aslan:
Aslan (CR 13)
XP 4,800

Domains Animal, Nobility, Strength
N Large Magical Beast (Divine)
Init +18; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +23
_____________________________________________________________

AC 28, touch 13, flat-footed 26, combat 33 (37 vs. trip)
(+2 deflection, +2 Dex, +15 natural, –1 size)
hp 201 (8d10 + 120)
Resist ability 5, energy drain 5
Fort +11, Ref +10, Will +5
_____________________________________________________________

Speed 80 ft.
Melee bite +19 (1d8 + 9 plus grab) and
2 claws +19 (1d6 + 9)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Base Atk +9; Combat +19 (+20 grapple)
Attack Options mythic power attack (-3, +9), pounce
Special Actions mythic (10/day, 1d12), rake (2 claws +19, 1d6 + 9)
_____________________________________________________________

Abilities Str 29, Dex 19, Con 21, Int 6, Wis 16, Cha 14
Feats Improved Initiative, Run, Skill Focus (Perception)
Mythic Feats Power Attack, Weapon Focus (bite), Weapon Focus (claw)
Skills Acrobatics +23, Perception +23, Stealth +19 (+27 in undergrowth); Racial +4 Acrobatics, +4 Stealth (+8 in undergrowth)
Treasure incidental
_____________________________________________________________
Alter Reality (Su) As a full round action, Aslan can alter reality by spending a use of mythic power. This is similar to a wish or miracle, except that it can duplicate 9th level spell effects or lower from any class. Aslan can only use this ability to produce effects in line with his portfolio. Within his realm, this is a standard action, and the restrictions on what constitutes an effect in line with his portfolio are relaxed within reason.

Divinity Aslan's divine blast deals 10d8 damage. His divine shield can withstand 40 points of damage. Aslan acts on his initiative and his initiative -5. Aslan is considered a rank 10 mythic creature for the purpose of his hit points and any tier based abilities he activates.

Against non-divine threats, Aslan rolls 2d20 and takes the best on all saves. He does not fail on a natural 1. Within 5 miles, Aslan takes no distance penalty on any skill checks. In addition, any distance based penalties are at -1 per 5 miles, not per 10 ft. If slain by a non-divine opponent, Aslan returns to life in his realm immediately. If slain by a divine opponent (or by a non-divine opponent twice in the same day), he returns to life within 24 hours. Only special circumstances can arrange the true death of Aslan.

Roar As a standard action, Aslan can roar. This causes non-mythic creatures to become panicked if they do not succeed on a Will save (DC 21). The range is 100 ft., but if Aslan spends a mythic point, it increases to 5 miles and summons 3d10 advanced dire lions with maximum hit points.

If you take a look at Aslan (a generic small god in the form of a lion, named in honor of and not attempting to be a statblock of the more famous lion of that name), you can see that he's got some staying power, and yet isn't anywhere near epic. He was built using an advanced dire lion, with the divine subtype.

Some people might point out that with access to alter reality, he's under CRed. I disagree, but the ability does require some maturity. Does it potentially allow for mythic wails of the banshee to be dropped on people? Yes. Should it be? Not with this god. Effects in line with his portfolio means just that. Perhaps he blesses someone with exceptional hunting prowess for a few hours, or uses it to veil a pride from approaching firearms bearing hunters. Who knows? The point is that you can write an ability that allows no leeway in interpretation, or you can write one that allows different DMs to handle different deities very uniquely. Given that a prick DM doesn't need a statblock to make life difficult or impossible for players, I don't really see that I need to tailor my work to keep them from abuse.


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Can't forget the extra 2d6! :) Thanks.


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I've got a 20th level cavalier, order of the sword.

Mount strength is 34. Cavalier strength is 26, charisma is 25. +4 axiomatic lance. Spirited Charge. Knight's Challenge.

1d8 + 12 plus 2d6 lawful normally. On a charge, supreme charge = +200%, and spirited charge = +200% for a total of x5. Also add mount's strength to charge.

5d8 + 120 plus 2d6? 7d8 + 168 plus 2d6 on a critical hit?

And with knight's challenge, that 1d8+12 becomes 1d8+39. With the mount's strength, on a charge...

5d8 + 255? And 7d8+357 on a crit?

Just want to make sure I'm doing the math in the proper order.


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I personally prefer to design with simple HD and special abilities, rather than 'by the rules'. Most of my Dukes of Hell, Demon lords and such are designed in exactly that manner, with a few exceptions, like Iblis. However, when designing gods, they have traditionally been done utilizing the same rules as the PCs with some extra. 1e, 2e avatars, even 3.0 gods were built using class levels.

As such, I built humanoid gods with those same class levels, in accordance with that tradition. It is having 30 fighter levels that causes Iomedae to have so many feats, not some idea that feats (and more feats) make a god. With Pathfinder especially, I'm finding that might not be ideal. They provide a lot of little fiddly bonuses that work great for low level PCs that are just utterly superfluous on a deity.

On a different note, some gods are personification of their domains. Others, not so much. Ascended gods, demigods (in the Greek sense)...these don't seem to personify things as much as the old gods did. Some gods really do just feel like a PC that got lucky. Which is fine...it takes all kinds.


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Buri wrote:
I wouldn't. Feat spam is a failing of the 3.x paradigm.

Then very little of my high level work will be of use to you and your games.

Also, LazarX and fanclub, I'm not sure what your endgame is in advancing this argument while ignoring or forgoing mention of any of the actual work I've done. Is it to loudly proclaim your opinion? Success, we know you don't like god stats. Is it to get me to change my opinion? False, black bears are best.


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Buri wrote:
I'm not talking about your part. I'm talking about Iomedae's feat list in the OP. Kingdom building rules are easy by comparison.

How would you run a 30th level fighter? Epic play does require a lot of bookkeeping. One thing I try to do when possible, is pack on a bunch of fire and forget feats, like Great Fort and Imp Init, so that I don't have to remember what all of them do. Another thing is limiting the sourcebooks. Even with Archives of Nethys and the PRD, it can be cripplingly slow if you are looking back and forth constantly.


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This is the thread for discussion, though there isn't one on Paizo. I was really just offering it up in case it gives anyone on this thread ideas, though I'm more than happy to hear thoughts and suggestions.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
Kain Darkwind wrote:
Torture is functional. Just not the way most people imagine it is.

At what? Torture is great at breaking people down, permanently traumatizing them, and getting them to confess to having sex with the devil, cursing their neighbor with boils, and secretly being a terrorist (whether those things are true or not). What it's not, is at all useful as a tool for getting actual true information.

Violence is an excellent problem solving tool for certain kinds of problems if used correctly. Threats, and thus fear, are also very useful potentially if used carefully, and even a valid interrogation tactic under most circumstances. Pain? Pain is useful only if you want to make an example of someone, and there are other more humane ways to do that.

While the intricacies of torture vs valid interrogation techniques can be debated, I think the main answer here is 'Duh, that's why it's evil. Whether you think torture is effective or not, or how effective, or whether it needs to be combined with other methods...all that is beyond the point. Torture is functional for the simple reason that there are people who will lie to you as an authority figure to protect someone if you ask them nicely, and they will not be willing to lie to you if you are going to beat them half to death and kill their mother in front of them. There are lines and consequences that people are willing to accept. Where those lines are drawn may differ, but they exist.

Deadmanwalking wrote:
Kain Darkwind wrote:
However, I disagree that torture working as intended in fiction somehow influences the world at large, anymore than my society of gender and orientation enlightened individuals in the game has put a stop to discrimination on that front.
Pathfinder is a niche market, and expecting it to change the world on its own is thus unreasonable. But I didn't say 'Pathfinder', I was talking fiction in general, and there's actually loads of evidence that fiction can have a huge effect on cultural mores. There's a reason why propaganda films are a thing, and why they work. The media we consume and the attitudes represented in it that we are exposed to profoundly effect how we view and interact with the world.

Neither of us said Pathfinder, actually. Personally, I like to see evil people being evil. I want to see them torturing, raping, murdering, bringing forth demons and devils, etc. I don't like bumbling caricatures of villainy. LE deserves to break a few people on the rack so that the rest of the rabble stays in line.


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Pupsocket wrote:
First of all, put those goalposts back. We were talking about torture, not the use of force in general.

And we still are. Right there in my first sentence, I said 'torture is functional'.

Pupsocket wrote:
Also, could you maybe imagine a degree of effect somewhere between "none" and "instantly transforming the entire world into a paradise/hellhole"? Or is that too much "hippy peace and love" thinking for you?

I'm not responding to someone offering a degree of effect somewhere in between, but to DMW's statement that having it in fiction is a bad thing. As such, my imagination is not under question, unless you only prefer shifting the goalposts in your direction?


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Torture is functional. Just not the way most people imagine it is. Violence, pain and the threat thereof have solved more problems in the world's history than any hippy love and peace methods combined.

However, I disagree that torture working as intended in fiction somehow influences the world at large, anymore than my society of gender and orientation enlightened individuals in the game has put a stop to discrimination on that front.


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Pupsocket wrote:
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
mmsbhs wrote:

If sleep deprivation makes a terrorist unwittingly confess a plot element of a upcoming attack, do you believe that is evil? I, for one, do not.

If you used sleep deprivation to make a criminal confess to shoplifting, is it evil?

If you use sleep deprivation to make a person confess to shoplifting, he's going to do that whether or not he actually did the deed. If you do it intensively enough, you can even make him believe he did it. It still doesn't answer the question of whether or not he did it.

So yes, in the real world, of course it's evil.

I was awake for a week straight after 9-11, on guard duty. I was hallucinating and threatening trees that wouldn't produce their IDs for me by the end of it.

But always evil aligned? In any amount? Meh. Neutral. African wild dogs tear out their prey's stomachs and begin to eat while they are still alive, and they are neutral.

The real world unreliability of torture shouldn't come into play during these discussions, but rather the fantasy reality of torture, where the monolithic LE organizations will hustle you off to a dark room and you will talk.


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I did this to fix the rogue in my homegame. Feel free to mine it for whatever fixes you might want.


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As I mentioned, I found the original Bahamut build to be a little too weak for what I wanted him to be able to do. I revised him upwards with 10HD. Iblis, though not a god, was the primary reasoning...I thought that the original Bahamut had a difficult time even putting up a fight against him, which didn't sit well with me.

Revised Bahamaut:
Bahamut (CR 43)
LG Colossal dragon (air, good, lawful)
Domains Air, Good, Law, Nobility, Protection, Scalykind
Init +38; Senses blindsense 600 ft., darkvision, improved low-light; Perception +63
Aura frightful presence (4500 ft., DC 47)
Languages Aquan, Auran, Avian, Celestial, Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Halfling, Ignan, Terran
_____________________________________________________________

AC 78, touch 20, flat-footed 74, combat 104
(+14 deflection, +4 Dex, +58 natural, –8 size)
hp 2852 (46d12 + 2300); DR 40/epic and evil
Immune cold, electricity, fear, paralysis, sleep; SR 51
Defenses immortality, mythic guardian, unstoppable
Fort +47, Ref +36, Will +48; Iron Will
_____________________________________________________________

Speed 180 ft., fly 750 ft. (average), swim 180 ft.
Melee bite +69 (8d6 + 42 /19–20/x3 and cripple (DC 56)) and
2 claws +69 (4d8 + 31 /19–20 and cripple (DC 56)) and
2 wings +67 (4d6 + 20 /19– 20 and cripple (DC 56)) and
tail +67 (4d8 + 42 /19–20 and cripple (DC 56))
Melee Mythic vital bite +69 (32d6 + 168 /19-20/x3 and cripple (DC 56))
Melee Mythic power vital bite +57 (32d6 + 372 /19-20/x3 and cripple (DC 56))
Melee Sweeping mythic power bite +57 (8d6 + 93 /19-20/x3 and cripple (DC 56))
Space 30 ft.; Reach 60 ft.
Base Atk +46; Combat +76
Attack Options crippling critical (DC 56), mythic power attack (-12, +36), mythic vital strike, stunning assault (DC 56)
Special Actions alter reality, breath weapon (280-ft. cone, DC 65, 30d10 cold and disintegrate), crush (DC 48, 8d6 + 42), mythic (15/day, 2d12), tail sweep (DC 48, 4d6 + 42)
_____________________________________________________________

Spell-Like Abilities (Caster level 36th, Concentration +50)
Constant - greater magic fang
At will - chain lightning (DC 30), control winds, dictum (DC 31), geas/quest (DC 30), greater teleport, hold monster (DC 30), holy word (DC 31), plane shift, repulsion (DC 31), shield other
3/day - greater create demiplane, holy aura (DC 32), shield of law (DC 32), storm of vengeance (DC 33), whirlwind (DC 32), winds of vengeance (DC 33)

Spells Known (Caster level 40th, Concentration +54)
(WIP)
12th (2/day)
11th (2/day)
10th (3/day)
9th (8/day) - mass heal, meteor swarm (DC 33), miracle
8th (8/day) - polar ray, polymorph any object (DC 32), power word stun
7th (8/day) - control weather, greater restoration, resurrection
6th (9/day) - greater dispel magic, heal, heroes' feast
5th (9/day) - baleful polymorph (DC 29), breath of life, feeblemind (DC 29), true seeing
4th (9/day) - divine power, restoration, spell immunity, stoneskin
3rd (9/day) - create food and water, dispel magic, fireball, haste, major image
2nd (10/day) - aid, calm emotions (DC 26), lesser restoration, resist energy, silence
1st (10/day) - alarm, divine favor, mage armor, magic missile, shield
0 (at will) - detect magic, guidance, light, mage hand, mending, prestidigitation, spark, stabilize
_____________________________________________________________

Abilities Str 55, Dex 18, Con 41, Int 38, Wis 39, Cha 38
SQ augmented criticals, change shape, divinity, mythic
Feats Ability Focus (breath weapon), Combat Reflexes, Crippling Critical, Critical Focus, Dazing Spell, Empower Spell, Extend Spell, Fly-by Attack, Greater Vital Strike, Heighten Spell, Hover, Improved Initiative, Improved Vital Strike, Iron Will, Lingering Spell, Multiattack, Power Attack, Quicken Spell, Snatch, Stunning Assault, Toughness, Vital Strike, Widen Spell, Wingover
Mythic Feats Mythic Ability Focus (breath weapon), Mythic Combat Reflexes, Mythic Iron Will, Mythic Improved Initiative, Mythic Power Attack, Mythic Toughness, Mythic Vital Strike
Skillls Acrobatics +25, Appraise +63, Athletics +53 (+61 swim), Bluff +63, Diplomacy +63, Disguise +63, Fly +53, Handle Animal +63, Heal +63, Intimidate +63, Knowledge (arcana) +63, Knowledge (geography) +63, Knowledge (history) +63, Knowledge (local) +63, Knowledge (nature) +63, Knowledge (nobility) +63, Knowledge (planes) +63, Knowledge (religion) +63, Perception +63, Sense Motive +63, Spellcraft +63
Treasure Lots
_____________________________________________________________

Alter Reality (Su) As a full round action, Bahamut can alter reality by spending a use of mythic power. This is similar to a wish or miracle, except that it can duplicate 9th level spell effects or lower from any class. Bahamut can only use this ability to produce effects in line with his portfolio. Within his realm, this is a standard action, and the restrictions on what constitutes an effect in line with his portfolio are relaxed within reason.

Breath Weapon Those who fail a Fortitude save (DC 65) against Bahamut's breath weapon take 90d6 disintegration damage and 1d6 Constitution damage. A successful save reduces this to 5d8 damage and 1 Constitution damage. Bahamut can choose whether or not to use his disintegration power with his breath weapon.

Divinity Bahamut's divine shield can withstand 460 points of damage. Bahamut acts on his initiative and his initiative -5. Bahamut is considered a MR 15 monster for the purpose of his hit points and any tier based abilities he activates.

Against non-divine threats, Bahamut rolls 2d20 and takes the best on all saves. He does not fail on a natural 1. Within 5 miles, Bahamut takes no distance penalty on any skill checks. In addition, any distance based penalties are at -1 per 5 miles, not per 10 ft. If slain by a non-divine opponent, Bahamut returns to life in his realm immediately. If slain by a divine opponent (or by a non-divine opponent twice in the same day), he returns to life within 24 hours. Only special circumstances can arrange the true death of him.

Divine Spellcasting Bahamut gains additional spell slots above his maximum based off of his Charisma score. His spellbooks contain nearly every cleric, paladin and wizard spell in the multiverse. He has no cap when casting spells off divine spell lists, limited only by his caster level.

Mythic Archmage The DC to identify Bahamut's spells, recognize them as they are being cast, or dispel them is increased by 15.
He can expend a use of mythic power to utilize any particular metamagic he knows freely for 10 rounds. He can expend a use of mythic power to increase the damage of his spells by 50%, double the duration, increase the DC by 4 and ignore spell resistance on a single spell. Non-mythic targets have to roll twice and take the lowest on any saves against his spells. If his spell resistance protects him from a spell, he regains a use of mythic power.

Mythic Champion Bahamut can move up to his speed and still make a full attack. He can use a full attack action to strike every single creature within reach. He expend a use of mythic power to make a touch attack against spell effects, whether on a creature or not. If successful, they are affected by greater dispel magic (Caster level 30th.) He can combine this with an actual melee attack, but must hit the regular AC instead.

Mythic Guardian Bahamut takes half damage from non-mythic creatures. A critical hit restores one use of his mythic power and provokes an attack of opportunity that can be used to perform a combat maneuver.

Tiamat:
Tiamat (CR 43)
LE Colossal dragon (evil, lawful)
Domains Destruction, Evil, Law, Scalykind, Trickery, War
Init +38; Senses blindsense 600 ft., darkvision, improved low-light; Perception +68
Aura frightful presence (4500 ft., DC 46)
Languages Abyssal, Aquan, Auran, Celestial, Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Halfling, Ignan, Infernal, Terran
_____________________________________________________________

AC 77, touch 20, flat-footed 73, combat 111
(+14 deflection, +4 Dex, +57 natural, –8 size)
hp 2745 (45d12 + 2205); DR 40/epic and good
Immune cold, electricity, fear, paralysis, sleep; SR 54
Defenses divinity, mythic guardian, unstoppable
Fort +47, Ref +37, Will +45; Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes
_____________________________________________________________

Speed 180 ft., fly 750 ft. (average), swim 180 ft.
Melee 5 bites +66 (8d6 + 35 and grab) and
2 wings +64 (4d6 + 15) and
sting +64 (4d8 + 35 and poison)
Melee 5 power attack bite +54 (8d6 + 71) and
2 power attack wings +52 (4d6 + 27) and
sting +52 (4d8 + 71 and poison)
Space 30 ft.; Reach 60 ft.
Base Atk +45; Combat +73
Attack Options cleave, mythic power attack (-12, +36), stunning assault (DC 55)
Special Actions alter reality, breath weapons (see below), crush (DC 46, 8d6 + 35), fast swallow whole (4d6 + 25 bludgeoning, 10d6 energy, AC 38, 274 hp), mythic (15/day, 2d12), tail sweep (DC 46, 4d6 + 35)
_____________________________________________________________

Spell-Like Abilities (Caster level 36th, Concentration +50)
Constant - greater magic fang
At will - blade barrier (DC 30), blasphemy (DC 31), dictum (DC 31), geas/quest (DC 30), greater teleport, hold monster (DC 30), plane shift
3/day - earthquake (DC 32), disintegrate (DC 31), implosion (DC 33), power word blind, power word kill, power word stun, shield of law (DC 32), unholy aura (DC 32)

Spells Known (Caster level 40th, Concentration +54)
(WIP)
12th (2/day)
11th (2/day)
10th (3/day)
9th (8/day) - dominate monster (DC 33), energy drain, miracle
8th (8/day) - dimensional lock, polymorph any object (DC 32), power word stun
7th (8/day) - control weather, greater scrying (DC 31), prismatic spray (DC 31)
6th (9/day) - greater dispel magic, harm (DC 30), wall of iron
5th (9/day) - baleful polymorph (DC 29), cloudkill (DC 29), feeblemind (DC 29), true seeing
4th (9/day) - charm monster (DC 28), divine power, spell immunity, stoneskin
3rd (9/day) - animate dead, bestow curse (DC 27), dispel magic, major image (DC 27), vampiric touch
2nd (10/day) - bear's endurance, bull's strength, fox's cunning, resist energy, silence
1st (10/day) - alarm, divine favor, mage armor, magic missile, shield
0 (at will) - arcane mark, detect magic, ghost sound (DC 24), mage hand, open/close, prestidigitation, spark
_____________________________________________________________

Abilities Str 51, Dex 18, Con 39, Int 34, Wis 35, Cha 38
SQ change shape, divinity, mythic
Feats Ability Focus (poison), Cleave, Dazing Spell, Empower Spell, Extend Spell, Fly-by Attack, Heighten Spell, Hover, Lingering Spell, Multiattack, Quicken Spell, Snatch, Stunning Assault, Widen Spell, Wingover
Mythic Feats Ability Focus (breath weapon), Combat Reflexes, Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack, Toughness
Skillls Appraise +61, Athletics +69 (+77 swim), Bluff +62, Diplomacy +62, Disguise +62, Fly +52, Intimidate +62, Knowledge (arcana) +60, Knowledge (geography) +60, Knowledge (history) +60, Knowledge (local) +60, Knowledge (nature) +60, Knowledge (nobility) +60, Knowledge (planes) +60, Knowledge (religion) +60, Perception +68, Sense Motive +60, Spellcraft +60
Treasure Lots
_____________________________________________________________

Alter Reality (Su) As a full round action, Tiamat can alter reality by spending a use of mythic power. This is similar to a wish or miracle, except that it can duplicate 9th level spell effects or lower from any class. Tiamat can only use this ability to produce effects in line with her portfolio. Within her realm, this is a standard action, and the restrictions on what constitutes an effect in line with her portfolio are relaxed within reason.

Breath Weapon Tiamat possesses five different breath weapons. Each has its own recharge time. A Reflex save (DC 63) is allowed for half damage. A Fortitude save (DC 63) negates the special effect.

Red 280 ft. cone; 30d10 fire damage and immolate. Those failing their saves take half damage on the following round.
Blue 560 ft. line; 30d8 electricity damage and stagger. Those failing their saves are staggered for 1d6+1 rounds.
Green 280 ft. cone; 30d8 acid damage and suffocation. Those failing their saves begin to suffocate.
Black 560 ft. line; 30d6 acid damage and burn. Those failing their saves continue taking damage until they save or wash the acid off.
White 280 ft. cone; 30d6 cold damage and freeze. Those failing their saves are unable to move from their position for 1 minute. Suffering 30 points of fire damage removes this condition.

Divinity Tiamat's divine shield can withstand 450 points of damage. Tiamat acts on her initiative and her initiative -5. Tiamat is considered a MR 15 monster for the purpose of her hit points and any tier based abilities she activates.

Against non-divine threats, Tiamat rolls 2d20 and takes the best on all saves. She does not fail on a natural 1. Within 5 miles, Tiamat takes no distance penalty on any skill checks. In addition, any distance based penalties are at -1 per 5 miles, not per 10 ft. If slain by a non-divine opponent, Tiamat returns to life in her realm immediately. If slain by a divine opponent (or by a non-divine opponent twice in the same day), she returns to life within 24 hours. Only special circumstances can arrange the true death of her.

Divine Spellcasting Tiamat gains additional spell slots above his maximum based off of her Charisma score. Her spellbooks contain nearly every cleric and wizard spell in the multiverse. She has no cap when casting spells off divine spell lists, limited only by her caster level.

Fast Swallow Whole A creature swallowed by Tiamat takes 10d6 energy damage, the type varies depending on which head did the swallowing. A creature swallowed by a head must save against the appropriate breath weapon when it is utilized, at a -4 penalty.

Mythic Archmage The DC to identify Tiamat's spells, recognize them as they are being cast, or dispel them is increased by 15.
She can expend a use of mythic power to utilize any particular metamagic she knows freely for 10 rounds. She can expend a use of mythic power to increase the damage of her spells by 50%, double the duration, increase the DC by 4 and ignore spell resistance on a single spell. Non-mythic targets have to roll twice and take the lowest on any saves against her spells. If her spell resistance protects her from a spell, she regains a use of mythic power.

Multiheaded Each of Tiamat's heads can use a standard action to breathe, bite or cast a spell or spell like ability on her turn, assuming its breath weapon is ready. If she makes a full attack, only the heads that have not used their breath weapon on this round can make bite attacks. At will spell-like abilities can only be used once per round.

Poison (Ex) Sting - injury; save Fort DC 48; frequency 1/round, no maximum limit; effect 2d6 Con; cure 6 consecutive saves.

Iblis:

Iblis (CR 40 / MR 10)
Male advanced giant mythic solar fighter 20
XP 819,200
LE Huge outsider (angel, evil)
Init +35/+25; Senses darkvision, low-light vision, detect good, detect snares and pits, true seeing; Perception +61
Aura protective aura
Languages Celestial, Draconic, Infernal; truespeech
_____________________________________________________________

AC 81, touch 33, flat-footed 70, combat 101
(+14 armor, +14 deflection, +11 Dex, +34 natural, –2 size)
hp 2058 (42d10 + 1638); regen 20 (good artifacts and spells); DR 30/epic and good
Immune acid, cold, fear, fire, petrification
Resist electricity 20, sonic 30*; SR 51
Defense fearsome prowess (DC 34), indomitable
Fort +46, Ref +26, Will +34 (+4 vs poison and good); mythic saves (3/day reroll)
_____________________________________________________________

Speed 50 ft., fly 150 ft. (evil)
Melee 4 falchions +72 (4d6 + 40 plus 4d6 fire /15-20/x3 and 5d10 fire plus vorpal) and
6 wings +64 (3d6 + 12)
Melee slam +64 (3d8 + 22) and
6 wings +64 (3d6 + 22)
Ranged 4 angel bows +57 (3d6 + 28 plus 3d6 fire and slaying DC 45 /x3 plus 4d10 fire) (1300 ft. range increment, no max range)
Space 15 ft.; Reach 15 ft.
Base Atk +42; Combat +66
Attack Options brutal maneuver, cleave, combat expertise (-11, +11), deadly aim (-11, +22), power attack (-11, +33), rapid shot, stunning assault (-5, DC 52)
Special Actions blowback (100 ft.), fleet warrior, hellfire, mythic (10/day), quicken spell-like ability (6/day), relentless (22/day), skilled combat (+20), surge (10/day, 1d12)
_____________________________________________________________

Spell-Like Abilities (Caster level 32nd, Concentration +46)
Constant – detect good, detect snares and pits, discern lies (DC 38), fire shield, true seeing
At will – aid, animate objects, commune, continual flame, dimensional anchor, greater dispel magic, imprisonment (DC 43), invisibility, lesser restoration, remove curse, remove disease, remove fear, resist energy, summon monster IX, speak with dead (DC 37), unholy blight (DC 38), waves of fatigue
3/day – blade barrier (DC 40), earthquake (DC 42), heal, mass charm monster (DC 42), permanency, resurrection, waves of exhaustion
1/day – greater restoration, power word blind, power word kill, power word stun, prismatic spray (DC 41), wish

Spells Prepared (Caster level 32nd, Concentration +45)
9th (6/day) – etherealness implosion x2 (DC 32), miracle x2, storm of vengeance (DC 32)
8th (6/day) – fire storm x3 (DC 31), mass inflict critical wounds (DC 31), unholy aura (x2) (DC 31)
7th (6/day) – blasphemy (DC 30), [i]destruction x2 (DC 30), dictum (DC 30), ethereal jaunt, regenerate
6th (6/day) – banishment x2 (DC 29), harm (DC 29) x3, word of recall
5th (7/day) – break enchantment, breath of life, dispel good (DC 28), plane shift x2 (DC 28), righteous might, symbol of sleep (DC 28)
4th (8/day) – cure critical wounds, death ward, dismissal (DC 27) x3, divine power x3
3rd (8/day) – cure serious wounds, invisibility purge x2, magic circle against chaos, prayer, protection from energy x2, wind wall
2nd (8/day) – bear's endurance x2, bull's strength x2, desecrate, eagle's splendor x2, owl's wisdom
1st (9/day) – divine favor x3, entropic shield x3
0 (at will) – create water, detect magic, light, mending, purify food and drink, stabilize, virtue
_____________________________________________________________

Abilities Str 50, Dex 32, Con 48, Int 34, Wis 36, Cha 38
SQ armor mastery, armor training 4, change shape (alter self), size matters not, the harder they fall, weapon mastery (falchion), weapon training (+4 heavy blades, +3 bows, +2 natural, +1 hammers)
Feats Blinding Critical, Cleave, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Crippling Critical, Deadly Aim, Far Shot, Improved Disarm, Improved Sunder, Point Blank Shot, Power Attack, Quicken Spell-like Ability x2, Rapid Shot, Sickening Critical, Staggering Critical, Stunning Assault, Tiring Critical, Toughness
Mythic Feats Critical Focus, Critical Mastery, Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes
Skills Acrobatics +57, Athletics +43, Craft (armor) +40, Craft (weapons) +40, Diplomacy +44, Fly +62, Intimidate +64, Knowledge (geography) +59, Knowledge (history) +59, Knowledge (nature) +59, Knowledge (planes) +59, Knowledge (religion) +59, Perception +61, Sense Motive +61, Spellcraft +59, Stealth +43, Survival +59, Use Magic Device +56
Treasure triple standard (Falchion of Gian ben Gian, angelic longbow, solar plate, +5 dancing holy greatsword, other treasure)
_____________________________________________________________

Brutal Maneuver Once per round, if Iblis's successful melee attack roll exceeds his opponent's CMD+5, he can add the effects of any combat maneuver for which he has the Improved feat. (Typically Sunder)

Hellfire (Su) Any fire damage dealt by Iblis is half unholy damage and ignores resistance. In addition, the damage cannot be healed except in a consecrated area. Any time a creature takes fire damage from Iblis, they must make a Reflex save (DC 50) or catch on fire.

Relentless As a full round action, Iblis may convert all hit point damage into nonlethal damage.

Skilled Combat Once per minute, Iblis can add +20 to a combat maneuver check or to his CMD when an opponent attempt a maneuver against him as an immediate action.

Slaying Arrow (Su) Iblis's bow creates a greater slaying arrow of his choice when drawn. The DC is Charisma-based.

Fearsome Prowess Intelligent combatants who have seen Iblis fight for more than two rounds must make a Will save. (DC 34) Those who fail and possess a CR of 37 or less refuse to engage him in melee unless magically compelled. Those who fail and have a CR equal to 20 or less throw down their arms and join his service, unless doing so would be antithetical to their nature, in which case they are panicked. This is a mind-affecting, fear effect.

Indomitable Iblis may reroll a failed Will save every round to break free of an ongoing effect. He can do this up to twenty rounds per effect.

Size Matters Not Iblis can wield Large through Gargantuan weapons with no penalty.

The Harder They Fall Iblis can attempt combat maneuvers regardless of the size of his foe.

Possessions Iblis' solar plate is greatly scarred, but patched with obsidian and magma. Anyone wearing it suffers 5d6 fire damage per round. He still wields his bow, a +5 flaming burst composite angelic longbow of distance. His most deadly weapon is the Falchion of Gian ben Gian. The weapon is a Gargantuan +6 keen vorpal falchion of flaming burst, crafted from blood iron. It belonged to the div king Gian ben Gian, and was taken as a trophy when Iblis slew him, before the Great Fall. Iblis also possesses a +5 dancing holy greatsword, his original angelic weapon, though he rarely employs it.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Uh huh. So if the god won't allow you to miracle 1 billion points of damage...and the god is the one using the ability...

Alternate, $#it eating grin answer, if the DM fiats the miracle not being that powerful...and the DM runs the god using this ability that can duplicate 9th level spells or similar effects related to their portfolio...

I mean, bottom line, if this logically applied against alter reality, it would also apply against miracle and 25k gp.


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Thelemic_Noun wrote:

Personally, I don't like Alter Reality, because if you remove the material cost for wish and miracle, and allow the "greater effects," then you are right back where you started.

I get why you did it. It does away with the salient divine abilities and at-will domain spell like abilities, which are a pain to look up and add to a statblock. But a system that's that freeform is going to have serious problems resolving conflicts.

Iomedae: "I use alter reality to produce a miracle for greater effects to cause 1 billion points of holy damage to all evil mortal creatures on every plane that bypasses regeneration and antimagic."

Urgathoa: "I use alter reality to undo what she just did."

Repeat until they run out of mythic power or get bored.

I guess you could boil it down to an opposed Charisma check or something, but still...

Well, let me ask you this. What stops you, as a cleric, from casting a miracle for greater effects and asking for 1 billion points of holy damage to all evil mortal creatures on every plane that bypasses regeneration and antimagic?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Cerberus Seven wrote:
Most of that subtype seems quite tame compared to the 3.5 god abilities. And why in the name of all that's holy is Iomedae higher CR than freaking Bahamut? Someone done goofed at that one.

Bahamut's CR in 3.0 was...25, I believe. And when he was statted in the DDg, he was a lesser god.

In contrast, Iomedae was accused of turning all of Heaven into her realm, she is gaining so much power. Clearly an intermediate or greater deity, in those terms.

That said...I think both Iomedae and Bahamut are too weak for where I want them to be. My build of Iblis seems to suggest they are impotent before the Champion of Heaven, and that's a little too far below what they ought to be.

As for the subtype, I wanted it to be more streamlined and easier to run than the monstrous amount of special abilities afforded to 3.0 deities.

Thanael wrote:
Do PCs use Gestalt rules in your campaigns? If not what was iomedae's build before her ascendancy?

Not many PCs do, but I think you mean do NPCs use Gestalt rules in my camapaigns. And the answer is 'not often'. Typically reserved for gods only. I would have pegged mortal Iomedae as a paladin/fighter 20 // champion/guardian 10 (with dual path)

LazarX wrote:
I think of it this way. Are the PC's going to have DIRECT interaction with the gods? Not through heralds, avatars, Direct interactions? If the answer is no... (which it generally will be in almost every campaign I run} then there is no reason for me to go through that kind of stat work.

Couldn't agree more. DMs are busy, they need to focus their efforts where they are needed. My PCs have had and will have more direct interaction with the gods.

LazarX wrote:
Ultimately what are the purpose of stats? To adjudicate die rolling confrontations between player avatars and npc/monster avatars. Unless you're going to have die rolling confrontations with the gods, there's no point for stats.

Couldn't agree less. Stats demonstrate comparative power, and provide an image of a being in a particular format. While the intention is that you use that format to adjudicate dice rolling confrontations, it is not the only use for them. A statblock is a picture, that can be viewed by those who understand what they are looking at. (Similar to how that guy was reading the lines of code in the Matrix.) In that way, stats can be artwork, even if they are never used for a game. I've made d20 stats for Disney Princesses, DC superheroes, and the Terminator. Not all of that will be used in my games. Some of it is just for my enjoyment in creation.

Nakteo wrote:
So......Everything a GM does is a "GM fiat?"

Much of it, yes. When a GM rolls the orc's attack bonus, that's not fiat, that's covered by the rules. But the fact that the orc showed up at all? Fiat. The orc's name? Fiat. The orc's personality? Fiat. Its hopes and dreams? Fiat. The fact that you had a place to get the magic armor you are using against the orc's attack? Fiat. You are right, no one ever uses it that way...they use it when they feel the GM has crossed the line and is using fiat when they should use rules, or when they don't like the GM's fiat. Allowing you to play is not fiat though, because that happens outside of the game itself.

Nakteo wrote:
I think what Gorbacz is getting at here is that despite the fact that the deities have stats, they still CAN'T be killed by PC's unless the GM makes an addition or change to the rules, a fiat if you will, to allow the PC's to do so. And anyhow, if you look at those stats, they're basically designed to say "Can do most anything at all super easily" just like an unstatted deity would.

Well, no, they aren't basically designed to say that. For instance, Iomedae is designed to demonstrate what a mighty warrior of Heaven ought to be capable of. She should be able to fight with the most powerful fallen angel (a fallen solar fighter 20/MR 10) and perhaps survive the day. She should be able to heal thousands on a battlefield. She should be inspiring. She shouldn't be great at lying.

But I understand your perspective. Afterall, some people don't bother statting out barkeeps either. Or guys in a crowd. Or even anyone you aren't going to fight. I get the thought process behind not bothering or wanting to stat out gods. I just happen to have a different one. It's remarkable though, that people with the 'don't bother' attitude always feel free to come in and flaunt their opinion as fact, but the 'let's bother' crowd doesn't tend to head out into threads that aren't about god statting and do the same. I like discussing the merits and disadvantages, myself. Some people take it too personal though.


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Besmara:
Besmara (CR 30)
Female water spirit swashbuckler 20//rogue 20
CN Medium Outsider (Divine, Water)
Init +54 (+60 on a ship); Senses darkvision, low-light; Perception +57
Aura beguiling aura (100 ft., DC 39, fascinated)
Languages Abyssal, Aquan, Celestial, Common, Elven, Infernal, Sylvan
_____________________________________________________________

AC 64, touch 47, flat-footed 57, combat 78
(+7 armor, +13 deflection, +17 Dex, +7 dodge, +10 natural)
hp 1131 (32d10 + 436 + 375); DR 20/cold iron and epic
Immune cold, electricity, poison
Resist ability 5, energy drain 5; SR 41
Defense charmed life (7/day, +13), improved uncanny dodge, transparency, unstoppable
Fort +23, Ref +31, Will +26 (+6 on a ship); evasion
_____________________________________________________________

Speed 60 ft., swim 120 ft.
Melee Cutlass +58/+53/+48/+43 (1d6 + 34 plus 20 precision* /15-20/x3 and stagger DC 42)
Ranged Water spray +49 touch (10d6 cold and poison)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Base Atk +32; Combat +49 (+53 dirty trick, steal, trip)
Atk Options combat expertise (-9, +11), greater dirty trick, greater feint, greater steal, greater trip
Special Actions drowning kiss, master strike (DC 26), mythic (28/day, 2d12), sneak attack +10d6 (10 bleed), spring attack
_____________________________________________________________

Deeds (Panache 10/day)
Offense - bleeding wound, deadly stab, menacing swordplay*, parry and riposte, perfect thrust*, precise strike*, stunning stab (2), superior feint*, targeted strike
Defense - cheat death (all), dizzying defense, evasive, kip-up*, swashbuckler's grace
Misc - derring-do, swashbuckler's edge. swashbuckler initiative

*Requires 1 point of panache remaining, does not expend panache

Rogue Talents (Rogue level 20th)
Constant - dexterous, fearsome reputation, risk taker
At will - bleeding strike, sneak attack of opportunity
6/day - another day, defensive roll, infuriating combatant, redirect attack, rogue's luck (+10)

Spell-Like Abilities (Caster level 32nd, Concentration +42)
At will - control water, control weather, suggestion (DC 23), summon (level 9, any CR 20 or lower aquatic magical beast)
3/day - storm of vengeance (DC 29), whirlwind (DC 28)
_____________________________________________________________
SQ change shape, seafaring, shipmanship +6, swashbuckler weapon training +4
Abilities Str 25, Dex 45, Con 36, Int 27, Wis 35, Cha 37 +1 to two (x5), +2, +3, +1, +1, +1, +3
Feats Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Critical Focus, Deceitful, Dodge, Greater Called Shot, Greater Dirty Trick, Greater Feint, Greater Steal, Greater Trip, Improved Called Shot, Improved Dirty Trick, Improved Feint, Improved Initiative, Improved Steal, Improved Trip, Mobility, Quick Draw, Skill Focus (Bluff), Spring Attack, Staggering Critical
Mythic Feats Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative,
Skills Acrobatics +62, Appraise +33, Athletics +52 (+60 swim), Bluff +68, Diplomacy +46, Escape Artist +52, Intimidate +68, Knowledge (geography) +41, Knowledge (history) +50, Knowledge (local) +53, Knowledge (nature) +41, Perception +57, Perform (sing) +41, Perform (string) +41, Profession (sailor) +65, Sense Motive +57, Sleight of Hand +58, Stealth +62
Treasure +5 leather armor, +5 dueling cutlass of quenching
_____________________________________________________________

Alter Reality (Su) As a full round action, Besmara can alter reality by spending a use of mythic power. This is similar to a wish or miracle, except that it can duplicate 9th level spell effects or lower from any class. She can only use this ability to produce effects in line with her portfolio. Within her realm, this is a standard action, and the restrictions on what constitutes an effect in line with her portfolio are relaxed within reason.

Beguiling Aura (Su) Any creature within 30 feet of Besmara that fails a DC 36 Will save is immediately fascinated. This is a mind-affecting compulsion effect. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Divinity Besmara's divine blast deals 42d12 damage. Her divine shield can withstand 320 points of damage. Besmara acts on her initiative and her initiative -5. Besmara is considered a tier 15 trickster for the purpose of her hit points and any tier based abilities she activates.

Against non-divine threats, Besmara rolls 2d20 and takes the best on all saves. She does not fail on a natural 1. Within 5 miles, Besmara takes no distance penalty on any skill checks. In addition, any distance based penalties are at -1 per 5 miles, not per 10 ft. If slain by a non-divine opponent, Besmara returns to life in her realm immediately. If slain by a divine opponent (or by a non-divine opponent twice in the same day), she returns to life within 24 hours. Only special circumstances can arrange the true death of her.

Drowning Kiss (Su) Besmara can flood the lungs of a willing, helpless, or fascinated creature by touching it (traditionally by kissing the creature on the lips). If the target cannot breathe water, it cannot hold its breath and immediately begins to drown. On its turn, the target can attempt a DC 38 Fortitude save to cough up this water; otherwise it falls unconscious at 0 hp. On the next round, the target must save again or drop to -1 hit points and be dying; on the third round it must save again or die. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Mythic Trickster Besmara treats all non-mythic foes as being flat footed. When she rolls a natural 20 on an opposed skill check against a mythic foe, she regains one use of mythic power. Besmara can spend a point of mythic power to treat a foe as flat footed, with a +15 bonus on the attack. Besmara doubles any precision damage on a critical hit. She does not take an armor check penalty, suffer spell failure or maximum Dexterity from light armor.

Besmara can use Bluff in place of a CMB check on all adjacent foes, to apply bull rush, drag, or reposition.

As a swift action, Besmara can expend one use of mythic power to gain a +4 dodge bonus to her AC for 1 round. During this time, whenever a creature misses on a melee attack against her, it provokes an attack of opportunity from her. She can choose to either take the attack of opportunity or force that creature to reroll the attack and change the target to an adjacent creature of her choice within the attacker's reach. This reroll uses the same modifiers as the initial attack roll.

When hit by a melee or ranged attack, Besmara can expend one use of mythic power as an immediate action to replace herself with an illusory duplicate and teleport to any open square within 30 feet of her current position. The attack does not harm her, instead destroying the duplicate.

When Besmara moves, she can travel across vertical surfaces, can move at full speed across any narrow or uneven surface, and can run across fragile surfaces that can't hold her weight (including liquids) without peril. She leaves no tracks (as pass without trace), and ignores adverse effects from nonmagical difficult terrain and ground hazards, including caltrops. As an immediate action, she can expend one use of mythic power to balance on razor edges and pinpoints, allowing her to ignore damage from spiked pit traps and similar hazards for up to fifteen rounds.

Poison (Ex) Contact, Fort DC 38, 1/round (10), 1d4 Con plus blindness, cure 3 consecutive saves.

Transparency (Su) When underwater, Besmara's body becomes transparent, effectively rendering her invisible. She can become visible or transparent at will as a free action.


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Theodor Snuddletusk wrote:

True true.

But i will argue that to an inquisitor torture is an evil act if it does not bring a threat into justice (if that is his goal). To torture a person just for the sadistic glee is pure evil, but to torture a confecion out of a suspect a nececary evil.

I dislike the face that raw should dictate it. And i am glad my dm views it the same way.

But if than the suspect is proven to be innocent the inquisitor has a major problem.

My inquisitor is lawfull good, follows a doctrine of protecting the weak. And now all evidence point at an evil heartless noble that buy up the land and tried to create a famin to lower prices. The evidence is not rock solid, but he thinks he can find the truth with some physical motivation.

I think this is the wrong sort of scenario to justify torture. It's hardly time sensitive, and there exist less extreme measures than torture that would solve the issue at hand.

I do think somethings people consider torture (withholding/depriving food, solitary confinement, imprisonment, etc) are not, just like there are somethings that are considered rape, murder or slavery that aren't. These 'neutral' tortures can probably be safely used as interrogation techniques by Good aligned hard-liners.

The things like tearing out fingernails? Dismemberment? Smashing balls with hammers? That's evil. Evil tortures should be used with extreme caution even by Neutral aligned hard-liners, lest they fall to evil on that well paved road.

Evil aligned people don't feel bad about doing evil aligned things. Neutral aligned people feel bad or at least conflicted about doing evil aligned things. Good aligned people don't intentionally do evil aligned things except in extreme situations, after which they should feel terrible about them, and probably seek atonement. And a Good aligned person should never find the evil aligned action to be a method of preference, but of last resort.


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It's not clear because there are certain conditions that should supersede even a wish. For instance, a deity's ability to control planar links or their realm. Or, in PF, 'do whatever the hell they want'.

Then there are conditions that logically should prevent a wish. An antimagic plane for instance.

Then there are effects that adjust teleporting effects, sometimes to the point of preventing the teleport or changing its destination. Do these still function? What about effects that do not prevent teleports, but react to them?

Because wish is fairly loosely written without examples, in order to provide maximum flexibility for a DM, the specific intent is going to be less than clear to some people.


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Hagor wrote:
Thomas Austin wrote:
Chris P wrote:
My players hate him as well. <snip> Although they still refer to him as Magnum PI.
He looks more like Freddy Mercury to me. Which has soooo many obvious subplot opportunities....

For a picture of Avner that I showed my players:

google "Chris Dane Owens" in Google images...

This immediately put my players in the right mind about our favorite npc.

Hagor

That is hilarious, because I also came up with that.

Avner Theme Song

Avner Campaign Victory


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Auren "Rin" Cloudstrider wrote:
BBEG is either required to be a full caster or required to have the help of a full caster.

No, they aren't. Quite frankly, these sort of comments help drive the impression that the imbalance is just in the minds of a select vocal few.

The caster/martial thing has a few subsets.

1. Fix the fighter. This one actually has little to do with casters. The fighter needs some better options, even in comparison with his fellow martials.

2. Make martials mighty. Mythical (not the rule system) martial heroes constantly show up across legends, and few of them are able to be emulated via the PF martials. Meanwhile, on hand, easily accessible magic is often even more powerful in PF/DnD than it is in myth or legend.

3. Spells are free, feats are paid for through the nose. Every book that prints more spells essentially empowers the casters with those options. Meanwhile, martials already are feat taxed and prereqed to Hell, for even the most basic and simple options, like gaining a +2 attack bonus on your next melee attack against someone whose space you tumbled through. It seems like a martial has to jump through three hoops in order to get a foe to be knocked backwards or down, but casters will get the ability to do exactly the same to multiple foes at once, easier, earlier and at a lower expense.

4. Weaken witches and wizards. One of the smaller arguments, a lot of people point to what was mentioned at the end of point 2...PF wizards have beaucoup options, even in excess of what magic users employ across the fantasy and sci-fi genres. Would limits on spell access make the game more fun?

5. Stop having spell solutions for skill challenges. When one spell fixes a problem, or provides 100% of a solution for the party, it can feel superfluous to invest in the much lower payouts granted by skills. Keep skills relevant.


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Wow, that was awesome. I know that the berdache and two spirit people were thought to have divine connections due to them walking in two worlds. Not only is it great to see a trans iconic just for representational purposes, but you tied this one into existing mythology/history! That's really impressive. You guys are so cutting edge you're vorpal.


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Justin Sane wrote:

*sigh* Okay. Okay. I'm just gonna add two things, then can we get over the comic book contests, please?

1st -- If Batman, without his gear, was dropped from orbit, would he die from the impact? If yes, he's not level 20.

2nd -- Supes goes off-planet for a bit, finds a convenient meteorite, proceeds to fling it at the Batcave, with Batman inside (which Superman can indeed check from space). There, dead bat.

Now can we please drop this tangent? Please?

What evidence do you have to prove that level 20 characters do not die when dropped from orbit? (aka when they hit the ground at terminal velocity)

Falling damage ranges from 20-120 dmg at that range, and being dropped from orbit (rather than just 200+ feet) possibly inflicts fire damage as well from reentry.

Hit points of 20th level human characters (without ability boosting gear or magic) ranges from 20-348.

Ergo, many 20th level characters might in fact, die from terminal velocity hits. In the real world, we have examples of people (rarely) surviving those falls as well.

The entire nonsense of the Alexandrian article is based around the fallacious claim that high level characters are always capable of surviving massive amounts of damage. A 20th level Albert Einstein could very well possess 20 hit points.

All this before we even get to the fact that there is no one on our planet, even a combination of peaks, for agility, strength, fighting prowess, etc, that can match what Batman has been displayed doing on a regular and constant basis. It has no more connection to our 'real world' than Lucy and her 'unlock 100% of the brain's potential' power has to our real world.


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Evidence offered to support Batman as a 6th level rogue: none.

Evidence offered to support Thanos as a 20th level caster's speed bump: none.

Evidence offered to support Zeus as a 13th level druid: none.

Every time something comes up where the character in question displays power far beyond what is doable with Anzyr's suggested build, it's author fiat, or using different mechanics, or some other such. It's never the real answer, which is that Anzyr is bad at doing stats. Possibly due to a failure to read the rules in a logical manner, evidenced elsewhere. Possibly due to a distaste for the genre of myth.

Comic book heroes, much like old mythological heroes, have faced off against a myriad of threats, often far beyond what a sub CR 30 offers in Pathfinder. Case in point? Baba Yaga creates demon lords and subjugates a country. Anti-Monitor wiped out multiple universes. Darkseid drives a planet around the galaxy. Joker once turned the entire planet into monkeys. Or jokers, or something like that, I'm not entirely sure. But for you, that's what, a 10th level monk?

Yz, their version of a genie, has demonstrated power beyond wish, usable at will. As has Mxyzptlk. No doubt 7th level caster stuff.

Lex Luthor, ordinary human, has played twelve chess games concurrently while thinking up non-magical solutions to defeating Superman, cancer, cloning, etc. Probably a DC 15 check based on your insistence that DC 10 will name every city in the world, ever.

Green Arrow has done more crazy stuff with his arrows than any 20th level archer built off PF rules can manage.

And that's just the beginning, but no doubt just more author fiat (also known as storytelling) and not suggestive that your entire premise, that the DCU fits mostly under 10th level, is the typical poorly supported assertions and insistences we've come to expect from you.


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Anzyr wrote:
No, no. This is a Solar v. Level 6 Rogue with 20th level WBL. The Rogue is still not going to win. Batman is a vanilla mortal. He *wishes* he had the kind of HP of a level 15 Wizard. Not to mention the reality warping power he sorely sorely lacks. And I'm not really trying to "spin" it. In D&D terms, that's pretty much what the fight *is*.

So because Anzyr says Superman can beat Batman, Superman must be a higher level/CR.

And all evidence to the contrary, like actual stories in which Batman defeats Superman, is author fiat, and the only fiat we should accept is Anzyr fiat.

Thus Batman is 6th level and has a lot of wealth.

As such, Pathfinder cannot properly model the interaction we've seen between Superman and Batman.

Nicely done, that logic almost makes a perfect circle. Works almost as well as your tinfoil hat Thanos vs 20th level wizard claim.


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DrDeth wrote:
Coriat wrote:
DrDeth wrote:
But great Heroes in myth and legend didn't Fly. Not even Demi-gods like Heracles. Not Roland, not Lancelot, not Odysseus, not Jason, not Beowulf, not Samson. And those guys are Mythic.

Great heroes in myth and legend had nearly exactly same access to flight as mighty sorcerers did.

Mythologically speaking, self-powered perfect flight along the lines of Pathfinder fly or overland flight is usually the province of gods and angels and similar beings, if it even exists at all within the mythology. Magicians can't do it any more than warriors can.

But there were means of flight available to non-gods, and such were mostly equally available to all, without any special favor to wizards and their ilk. Alexander the great warrior fastens his chariot to a Roc. Solomon the mighty magician puts his throne on the back of a giant eagle. Daedalus the clever skill monkey designs working nonmagical wings by artifice, using only what he can get his hands on from inside a prison cell.

Not like Pathfinder, where wizards get not only to summon the giant eagles, but also are given the literally godly mode of flight, while skill monkeys aren't even provided the mechanical mortal substitute.

Atlantes could fly. So could Farmer Weathersky, Gwydion, Lleu, Merlin, Morgan le Fey, Iucounu the Laughing Magician and most of the powerful wizards from Dying Earth- from which D&D gets it's Wizards.

Now sure, not all of them do it by a "Fly" spell. Some shapechange, some summon creatures that carry them, some grow wings, etc.

So exactly this point. Glad you agree with him. Now to acknowledge the fact that mythology provides skill monkeys and martials with that same sort of flight, and Pathfinder tends not to, or to price it far out of reach compared to the cost of a 3rd level spell.


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Barring any DM imposed limits on the amount of capital you can purchase, it is always going to be more effective to just buy the capital than to convert it from a working source.

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