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Organized Play Member. 253 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 4 Organized Play characters.


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Monk can also work, since they fit in with the unarmored, super skilled vibe. The alignment constraint might be an issue, but I’m sure your GM will be willing to waive that for a cool enough build.

The most important thing to remember is that a good DD is (usually) a melee build, so your ability scores, feats, class, and spell choices should all go towards that goal.

The easiest advice I have is to focus on strength (which both bloodrager and DD help with), choose a two handed weapon (great sword is the best damage-wise, but the choice isn’t too important), and take the power attack feat. I would also advise against taking more than 4 levels of DD.

Another good choice for dragon disciple is to add in a few levels of paladin. This takes a higher level of system know how than sorcerer or bloodrager (because now you have to have at least three different classes - paladin, spontaneous caster and DD), but the payoff can be great. It also opens up some nice RP opportunities; I have a friend who built such a character, and its whole deal was the struggle between its evil dragon ancestry and its faith.

Just noting that a paladin still needs to take the Divine Fighting Technique feat, even if they give up a mercy to qualify for its benefits.

Hi Mark, super excited about the second edition! I agree that now is the exact right time to do it, and am excited to see how PF will look with the rigor and expertise that I see in the later products.

Until then, do you have any input about how overrun works as part of a charge? It’s explicitly allowed, but I’ve seen wildly different interpretations of how it works.

It really isn’t clear, at least for me. The additional resources state:

additional resources wrote:
the use of Arinna's Wagon...are not available in Pathfinder Society Organized Play unless they appear on a Chronicle sheet

The way the book is set up I’m not sure whether this includes the tattoo or not, not to mention the additional resources entry only states which items are not legal to buy, and at no point explicitly states that anything can be purchased.

I’d really appreciate it if someone with access to the book could give their take.

I’ve heard of FCT being used on multiclassed cave druid monks for some impressive results.

I’m going to have to say the shaman doesn’t count, due to the slippery slope argument. To my knowledge every prepared caster has some access to spontaneous casting: cure spells, arcane bond, summon nature’s ally. If the shaman counts as a spontaneous caster, then the distinction is moot.
Assuming the separation between prepared and spontaneous is meaningful, we must conclude spirit magic doesn’t give access to dragon disciple.

In addition to the above issues, pummeling style explicitly states that only unarmed strikes can be made at the end of the charge. FCT doesn’t override that.

So in order to change from one benefit to another you just need a standard action and to move to the next minute increment?

This may have been answered before,but my search-fu was too weak.
What action does it take to end a totem transformation (from the various Druid shaman archetypes)? And does it take a different amount of time to change the specific power gained from it?

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Just some options that weren't given above:

Bloatmage Initiate (+1 CL to school)
Irrisen Icemage (+1 CL to cold descriptor, -1 to other elements; 3/day change spell damage to cold)
Flame Heart (+1 CL to fire damage spells)

Secret of the Impossible Kingdom (+1 CL to one spell)

Voidfrost/Shocking/Blazing Robe (+1 CL to cold/electric/fire spells)
Conduit Rod (constant +1 CL to electricity descriptor)
Alchemical Reagents (variety of effects depending on the reagent and spell used, including +1 CL and +1 dmg/CL)

A rod of intensify or intensify spell and blood intensity become more and more crucial the more of these options you choose, so watch out.

Tarondor wrote:
Rory wrote:

Tarondor, read the whole sentence that you partially highlighted:

"While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon."

You can cast spells while using Form of the Dragon and Elemental Body. You can't cast material component spells, but you can cast spells.

For posterity, you can even cast spells using Beast Shape, Plant Shape, and Vermin Shape as well, but removing the verbal, somatic, and material components from spells is mostly impractical for the purpose.

Fair enough. I was referring to being able to cast without those restrictions, but you are quite right.

All of the restriction, except for the simatic one, can be sidestepped with the methods I pointed out in one of the previous posts on this thread.

Why brawler and not UC monk? Leg sweep gets you trip without giving up an attack, and elbow smash gives another (none lethal) attack.

The right answer is 2. You get your first +1d6 at level 3, and it's in addition to the regular damage.

Ascalaphus wrote:

"a single spell" and "the spell" suggest that it's a one-time thing.

Since the feat gives you access to multiple tricks for which you qualify, not just this one thing, getting +1 CL to all castings of the spell would be unusually powerful as well, closer to being worth a feat on its own.

Thing is that "single spell" can refer to a single spell casting or to a single spell.

I also think the first interpretation makes more balancing sense, but I think it makes less rhetoric sense.

avr wrote:
'before casting the spell' suggests to me that this is a one-time thing, but I'm not totally sure.

This is exactly the source of the confusion, since it can be read as "you don't need to choose at the beginning of the day, just don't cheese up and choose after you casted".

So one of the benefits of the feat are as follows:

Equipment Trick wrote:
Aura Mastery (Use Magic Device 1 rank): Once per day, you can choose a single school of magic represented by one of your wondrous items’ auras; you treat your caster level as 1 higher when casting a single spell of that school. You can make this choice at any time during the day, but you must choose the item (and school) before casting the spell.

Does this mean that you add the bonus once per day or that you choose the spell that gets the bonus one per day, and get the bonus to all castings?

In general using an ability that emulates a spell effect takes as long as the spell to activate unless otherwise noted. Hexes might be an exception, but I doubt it.

Yeah, seems good. Don't forget to get a Ring of Rat Fangs and Helm of the Mammoth Lord for additional natural attacks. Depending on how many fighter levels you're taking you could even take the Weapon Specialist Advanced Weapon Training and apply Jabbing Style to them too, along with saving feats on Weapon Focus and such.

Secret of the Impossible Kingdom, Precocious Spellcaster and Gifted Adept all raise your caster level by 1 for a spell(s), in addition to the feats discussed Blood Mage works too, and Irresin Icemage would work for Snowball. Using Urea as an Alchemical Power Component is cheap and effective, and when you have the money you can get a Voidfrost Robe\Shocking Robe and a Conduit Rode.
All in all you can get +10 on Snowball and +9 on Shocking Grasp, but not by level 3. If you're human and want to go all in, taking two of the traits as your free traits(+2), Spell Focus (evocation), Spell Specialization (+2), Varisian Tattoo (evocation,+1) and using Urea will net +6. Maybe there's some Magus specific things that can done too, but I'm not that knowledgeable in them. Also let me note that this is all way overboard, since Intensify only raises the cap by 5, so these caster levels will be very useless very fast.

Cool guide. I haven't gone through it all yet, but I did notice you said wood school gives an inherent bonus to an ability score, but it is an enhancement bonus, making it much less valuable.

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I'm surprised no one mentioned Knowledge Is Power yet. With some system mastery you can get your CMB to none dreadful levels (still won't recommend the multiclass though).

James Risner wrote:
Is there a rule require taking all primary natural weapons before secondary natural weapons?

To the extent of my knowledge, and I did do some digging on this in the past, the only rules for order are the ones DtP cited, so no.

Derklord wrote:
You don't take Improved Natural Attack on a Cave Druid when Strong Jaw is already on your spell list. That's 16d6 before Vital Strike.

Ehh, I gave the feat the worst chance.

Derklord wrote:

On my sample DPR calculation, I ended up overhitcapped, thus wasting half the feat's benefit, which made it worse than using the Haste attack instead of Vital Strike.

My calculations show that the median AC is at least 6 higher than the druid BAB for quite the range of CRs, which is all you need to get the full benefit. I don't really mind it not helping with a mook that is dead anyway.

Derklord wrote:
You could compare it to Cleave...

This comparison just doesn't work. Cleave needs a very specific, multiple enemy situation. Being a 5 foot step away from the enemy at the beginning of the turn is the case most turns. The rest is just nitpicking. Power attack is also useless if the enemy's HP is too low, or the AC is too high. It's still a good feat for most build because in a large enough number of situations the benefit is large enough.

Where's the "good" part?

The "good" part is variety, and opening new choices. If you will only be convinced by a list of builds with DPR calculations then you'll need to wait, I don't have the time.

avr wrote:
... it doesn't stack up for a melee druid due to requiring combat expertise and +6 BAB...

I have to disagree. This is an extreme example, but take a cave druid with a couple of levels of ranger for Improved Natural Weapon (Slam). With Vital Strike this means the Carnivorous Crystal Ooze does 24d6+1.5STR+Stuff. 24d6, that's an average of 84 per hit. Adding a +4 to hit is an additional 20% to hit, which means another 16.8 (just from dice) to your DPS for any enemy you would miss on a 5. That is worth the 13 INT and the two feats by a landslide.

That is one extreme example, but I think it illustrates that while niche, this feat can have a great impact.

David knott 242 wrote:

But which non-sorcerers would even get the arcana for any sorcerer bloodline?

Most Arcanas (in fact I can't think of any exceptions beyond Psychic) give benefits that affect all castings, Sorcerer or not. So any class dipping a level would.

Derklord wrote:
Well, we doubt the "bunch" and the "good".

I think more than enough examples were presented here to justify its existence, just not as a general feat. I could see it applied to touch casters, magi, brawlers (at least as a martial flexibility choice), lore wardens, eldritch knights, melee druid etc. They may not be the most highly optimized specimens of their types, but I think we can all agree the game is much more interesting when you have more than one magus/wizard/whatever build.

Both bloodline feats and bonus spells are separate class features than bloodline powers, so there is no ambiguity there. This also pretty much solves crossblooded: your Arcanist spells and other features are as usual, but you can pick which bloodline power you get.
The psychic issue is weird though.

Looking at this feat I just can't stop thinking of a Vital Strik based Cave Druid. That could be pretty fun. Also, I don't get the negative feedback. I mean sure, it isn't an instant classic, but why are you expecting it to be that? It's good for a bunch of specialized builds.

As long as you're giving up spells taking ranger levels is pretty amazing anyway, thanks to Shapeshifting Hunter. As long as monk isn't your main it's a sure gain.

I just want to note to the op that this subject comes up every now and then, and irregardless of whether a consensus is reached the "it doesn't " base is consistently large and adamant. So for anything but a home game where you can ask your GM what they think, you should assume the conservative view.

I'm reading it as for the purpose of AT only as well. I understand that it can be read otherwise, but usually abilities like this state "for all effects that modify..." if they mean all things. So even if the RAW wasn't, as it is IMO , leaning towards AT only, I think the general context of PF wording makes the RAI clear.

Regardless of the specific no taking 10 UMD rules, you can't take 20 on a roll that has negative consequences if you fail. Since rolling a 1 in UMD has a negative consequence, no take 20. Source.

I'd say they don't stack. This use of Wounding Words is a specific standard action, not an attack action, so vital strike can't modify it.

Thanks guys.

So the Ultimate Equipment errata just happened, and I was wondering if there is some list of all the things changed, or do I need to go through the updated version and compare everything to the last one. Any help?

Just combat?
Level 1:Color Spray, Dazzling Blade.
Level 2: Blur, Invisibility.
Level 3: Mass Dazzling Blade, Displacement, Invisibility Sphere, Loathsome Veil, Phantasmal Affliction, Shadowmind, Vision of Hell, Wall of Nausea (man, level 3 has some gems).
Level 4: Illusion of Treachery, Greater Invisibility, Phantasmal Killer,Shadowform, Shadow Conjuration, Wandering Star Motes.
Level 5: Phantasmal Web, Shadow Evocation.
Level 6: Baleful Shadow Transmutation, Greater Illusion of Treachery, Shadow Transmutation.
You get the point. The name of the game is DCs though, so you should work on that. Some of the best options are gnome sorcerers (arcane is probably best), Illusionist wizard, Arcanist or exploiter wizard.
The obvious feats are spell focus + greater. If you go Arcanist or Exploiter wizard take Potent Magic. My favorite is Exploiter Wizard with spell specialization and verisian tattoo and the Resilient Illusions Discovery. If you want to specialize in Shadow spells there's some wayang fun to be had, and there are quit a bit of gnome specific feats to choose from if you go sorc.

A shape shifting wizard can be fun. Get a mid int, high strength and con, the Knowledge Is Power discovery and take the transmutation shape shifting subschool. For additional fun (and minmaxing) dump wis to make a "all brawn no brain" brute.

Mark Seifter wrote:
Whew, finished! Now I won't have anything else to update for a bit unless someone else follows my game designer page on Facebook and puts me at 100, forcing me to convert a new CRB poison to the Unchained poison rules (as per a vote on what I would do at 100).

Seems my post's ranks in stealth really come in handy ;)


I think after vaporizing one of the enemies a intimidation check can be in order, but not as demoralization attempt. Demoralizing takes a standard action and only affects one target, but if you're trying to convince people to do something for you it could work.
Example: A wizard is trying to convince the enemies to leave him alone, so he shouts "leave, or face the wrath of the mighty warlock Bob!" and then disintegrates one of encroaching baddies. I'd give the wizard an intimidation roll with a plus five for that, and if he succeeds they leave.

What you need is a level of urban barbarian\unchained barbarian\urban bloodrager. Not only does the rage help with your to-hit, it allows you to get a furious amulet of natural armor, which helps as well.

I think you might enjoy Combat Advice. It gives you a nice thing to do with move actions, and adds to the knowledgeable wizard cliche.

I wouldn't agree with the better spell list argument. Due to the levels the Warlock gets them, they are weaker than many of the Magus specific spells, or spells from other lists that get reduced levels. And yes, arcane striker is nice, buts it's nothing next to arcane pool.

That's what I thought. I guess this means that a Warlock should only use the bolts as a secondary option. Truthfully, I don't see how the Warlock can come even close to the magus in combat effectiveness, which is kinda depressing. I mean, sure, he can TWF a touch attack weapon, but that still doesn't come close to a weapon you can add your STR/DEX to damage with and enchant, not to mention spell combat and spellstrike.

Mystic Bolts wrote:
A mystic bolt deals 1d6 points of damage plus 1 for every 4 vigilante levels the warlock has.

So, stupid question, but does this mean the damage is 1d6+(lvl/4) or (1d6+1)*(1+lvl/4)?

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Are there any plans to release more VMC options? I would love to see a Kineticist option. The best thing about it is that they give single class-locked characters, like casters and such, more options to versify. It's a shame it's not legal in PFS...

Btw, did you see my post about Dragon Style? There were quit a bit of conventions, so I thought you may have missed it.

Well, the classic version of this is the shadowdancer with the dimensional agility feat line. Since the player just wants Nightcrawler, maybe sit down with the player and remove some of the shadowdancer abilities for earlier access to the shadow jump, more feet per day, maybe feats from the dimensional agility line. You can even throw some extra sneak attack damage in there if you want a teleportation only build.

How horn of the criosphynx works with things such as pounce and dragon style/ferocity is ambiguous. I am assuming you are playing a homegame, so for that feat I'd just work out how it works with your GM. Remember, the only thing worse than accidentally using an illegal combination is using a technically legal but obviously broken loophole without talking to your GM first.

You can only use UA damage with UAS. If you attack with your claws, regardless of whether or not you have FCT, you use the claws. As for rake, if you flurry you get no additional from anything. That means TWF, extra natural attacks and rake.
The main appeal in going druid-monk is either being able to flurry with one big natural attack (like the behemoth hippo bite), or upping your UA damage by being larger.
Oh, and another thing. Manly-man teapot missed one attack option. You can make your standard set of UA attack (base and iteratives, no flurry) and make every natural attack you have, but as secondary attacks.

Nefreet wrote:

Indeed. It's not clear.

I, personally, do not let it increase a Barbarian's actual class granted Damage Reduction.

But, then again, I'm also the person that often points out there is no such thing as "rules as written", and that reading itself is an interpretive action.

This is the reason I believe this needs a clarification. A GM at a PFS table may rule that a barb gains no DR from this, and I really could't blame them for it. It's one of the rare cases that even though the language is relatively straight forward, the issue is contested enough to expect some significant table variation.

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