Oh, I should mention, I do throw out balance in favor of the players, which also means I don't use, in PF1 games, flat bonuses for Bard abilities. I let the Bard roll their performance for Inspire and it can go higher based on the roll. Completely throws out balance but makes the Bard even more valuable and the players love it! Yes, I do it for both sides.
I let concept of the character to guide things more so allow spell casters to create spells on the fly if it fits the character. Or the group says, "Wow!"
Oh, I wouldn't mind seeing a silver standard system. I went back to the non decimal system of coins (1 gold = 20 silver = 200 cp) because I find that to be more real. However, the main reason I want that is so that items aren't so expensive. Top tier PF1 items cost more than the biggest manor house in the most expensive city in Golarion and that makes no sense to me.
Really, I also want more support tools. I am making some of them myself but the idea is all items in an excel spreadsheet with costs and then I can create columns to allow some changes in costs. It's not to create a full on economy to create merchants of the PCs but to have variations in prices.
New Paths Compendium does have a White Necromancer which a player used in a campaign and it was good. It has an option Priest, a Warlock, and Theurge as well, all twenty level classes. And more! (I'm not affiliated with it but I do like the options.)
What I would want are books that expand the Unchained rules. (with full hero lab classic support, preferably) Now, this may end up being small as there is a lot in Unchained already. I use three action economy in my PF1 games already, with 3 actions on their turn and one reaction outside of their turn. I'm also pretty forgiving on what that reaction is. Maybe they use it to move out of the way on another player's turn, for example.
I like the consolidated skills, mainly because I like Athletics and Acrobatics as good, generic skills to handle, STR and DEX based actions. I do like the proficiency levels of PF2 as a way to show when certain things can be made. I want to see cleaned up feats or at least pared down. This assumes the same number of feats to allow options. For example, maybe all metamagic feats that add one level are one feat and a spellcraft check. Although, I wouldn't mind Ancestry feats as well as adding them as separate feats gained every other or third level on top of the standard feat. I'm not for bounded accuracy, at least not forced, but fewer bonus types to AC, maybe non armor type is limited to five, could do that.
I do like PF2 multi class rules and wouldn't mind some way of allowing that as an option, where feats or skill points control when things are learned in the second class. But at a third or half rate of base class.
I like bringing back the randomness of 3E. Instead of flat bonuses, make it a roll but make it a roll every round. Bless adds d4 to attack and fear based saves and they get to roll every round. Prayer, then, adds d4 to attacks, damage, all saves, and they roll every round. It's a lot of fun and I have been doing that in my current PF1 games. Could do this for the attribute spells and any spell that is fixed, instead make it variable for more fun with it. (It also allows magic to be more magically and less predictable but hopefully in a fun way.) Heh. This could go on other spells. Blink or displacement give flat fifty percent miss chances but what if that varies by up to twenty percent each time it's rolled?
(Now, yes, anytime this is done, it goes against the players and their characters, who are there all the time and rolling more than any given NPC. That's what the DM is for, to help make sure it's fun and works for the group.)
Now, there is more but this gives an idea basically of what I was hoping from PF2. I don't think a game can achieve balance and would rather see them give advice on how to run unbalanced games by talking to players, setting expectations, and going by rule of cool rather than thinking that one more rule will make it balanced. For example, I rarely see any players take Prestige Classes. If Prestige Classes "broke" balance and did do more things, I think they would be even more valuable and sought after, than what I have seen.
CM: But it's not that they are better in a punch fest, it's also that the martial's saves were so good that they would at least save and reasonably critically save against spells. In my example, the caster would have to run and if they can't fly/teleport, they lose.
If the caster can win in the casting side of it, I guess my question is was that intended?
O: Again, I think it's worse. I don't expect the sorcerer to beat up the martial, but the sorcerer is dominated.
I'm late in getting to some things, so apologize but a quick search didn't yield anything. I'm playing around with Hero Lab Online (HRO) and made a 17th level Sorcerer and a 20th level paladin just for fun and to see the numbers. The numbers scare me.
Now, I'm sure that HRO isn't updated with final rules but I am curious if what I'm seeing is correct. My assumption is that a three level gap like the above isn't bad. I also thought they were flattening the numbers and not going to go as high.
In the case of the 17th level sorcerer v a 20th level paladin:
Paladin: +5 full plate for AC 44, TAC 40. Saves are F+32, R+25, W+30. +4 Bastard Sword. +32/27/22. Damage: 5d8+6 Hit Points: 328
Sorcerer: Mage Armor: AC 33, TAC 33. Saves are F+27, R+22, W+27. Spell attack is +24. Spell DCs are 34. +3 Mace is +21/16/11. Damage: 4d6+1 +3 Crossbow are +20/15/10 Damage: 4d8 Hit Points: 178
This sorcerer is outclassed at all points. Spells that require an attack means he can't get a critical, only hits on a 20, a 16+ for TAC. He only hits on physical attacks on a 20. Spells are saved on a 2, 9, or 4, for F/R/W. Reflex doesn't critical save often but other two might, which seems to be no damage.
The paladin is going to win. Assuming he can get close and the sorcerer doesn't run away, he hits on a 2/6/11, so more than half the time. A normal long sword gives him 29/24/19, which hits on a 4/9/14. Might take longer as the damage d8+6 isn't great for the level. I didn't intend for these two to fight and gave the paladin Angelic Form, so the sorcerer has to teleport to get away as flight won't do it.
To compare again, I made a 20th level Rogue.
Rogue: Dagger +30/26/22. Damage: 4d4+6 +2 leather AC 39, TAC 38. Saves aren't as important but F+24 R+31 W+26. Hit Points: 206
So, the rogue has a few more options. Legendary sneak to maybe get a +2 flank but still only hits on a 12 for flanking, 14 otherwise. Poisons might also help wear him down but it would be drawn out and not guaranteed as the Paladin hits on 7/12/17. Not to mention Lay on Hands to help. Maybe a readied action by the paladin allows one hit and his damage is higher for his weapon. Sneak attack is only +4d6 at 20th level.
First of all, do these numbers look right? I have made assumptions and corrections are fine. Second, from a numbers standpoint, is that what is expected?
Looking at an ancient Black Dragon, better numbers than the sorcerer but not by much. An Ancient Blue Dragon or Red Dragon would be tougher but possible. (Also, do I read it correctly that dragons can choose between bite, claw, and tail as they prefer in any combination up to three?)
I'm excited about PF2E the more I have read about it, watched videos, and played in the character creator. When I brought down the print outs of these characters, I was shocked at these numbers, so had to share and ask where I went wrong. Or if I did.
I'm sure PF2.0 will have its own recommendations regarding the amount of xp to award for an adversary of a given challenge level. Since you need a flat amount for each level, the xp award will also have to be flattened, so an APL1 group will get just as much xp from a CR2 foe as an APL8 group gets from a CR9 foe.
I took it a different way but obviously don't know for sure. If they are trying to simplify the math for the DMs, having foes be worth a variable amount seems counter-intuitive to that goal. Instead of having an xp per foe, as they do now, they are going to have to go back to the ECL v EL chart to figure out xp.
I took it that this is going to allow them to look a monster and decide how many of them should be a level, based on their own goals for the game. If they think it's worthy of gaining a level defeating a monster, they make that monster worth 1000 xp. (I never remember if you divide or not, so I guess up to 4k xp for the standard four character party?)
Yes, CR is also an indicator of when it should be fought and how tough it will be but now xp will do that as well at a glance.
The secondary effect of that, which I also surmised but could be wrong, is that monsters will be a challenge at all levels. A party can't ignore the group of orcs with the giants anymore. This also allows better "team ups" in my opinion because it does allow orcs to be with a giant, instead of some lesser giant progression. (i.e. orcs with ogre with ettin with hill giant with fire giant.) Now you can put orc servitors with any giant type. Further, if the DM wants, now it's an option for the orcs to rise up against the giants if they don't like the giants anymore, whereas in current rules, the orcs wouldn't stand a chance against giants.
I could be completely wrong; it's just how I took it.
I'm also curious when this will happen. I understand that they want to get the news out; I'm merely disappointed that they can't announce it closer to its release.
The question was asked why it doesn't fit fantasy and, again only for me, it evokes a later time than the fantasy I prefer or think about.
So, how do you feel about the alchemist and investigator? They are also very Victorian/Edwardian character types.
Thanks for the questions and reply!
The reason I don't find Alchemist Victorian is that the term alchemist has been around a while. Egyptian alchemists learned how to gold plate things. Then it went to the Middle East and came back to Europe in the Middle Ages. The term itself doesn't take me out of my thoughts on fantasy. Now, to go a step further, the abilities of it can at times. Making bombs, and that term, isn't fantasy. I guess I accept it because in a world of magic, the medieval scientist, the alchemist, learned some spells and limited technology that works. It works for me in a way that (the terms) Occultist, Spiritualist, and Medium don't.
As for Investigator, that's because I'm a Grognard! :) This was a term used back in the 2E Complete Rogue's book as a way to think of Rogues that made sense for them to be in a group. It's more than that but specific to me.
As for complexity, only for me, I use Hero Lab, so a lot of that is figured out for me in game.
Again, haven't had time to reread them but want to do so!
Occult Adventures turned me off due to the name, both of the book and the class names. Occult, Mesmerist, Spiritualist, Medium, Psychic, and mind powers in general, aren't fantasy to me. These terms in particular, evoke Victorian London, seances, and eventually Houdini debunking them. I, personally, never found psionics or powers like this satisfying in fantasy.
The question was asked why it doesn't fit fantasy and, again only for me, it evokes a later time than the fantasy I prefer or think about. Again, I think more of a Victorian/Edwardian times than fantasy when I hear these terms. I also see combat having changed from melee to ranged, with revolvers and rifles, with little or no armor, which again isn't fantasy to me.
(As much as I loved Dark Sun, the 2E psionic system was rough. I think I like it better now that I think of Dark Sun as magical post apocalyptic world.)
Having said that, the discussion here has made me want to relook and reevaluate, and try and get past those terms. The Kineticist sounds like the 3.5 Warlock, which I liked.
So, thanks for the discussion and want to look again at this and see what I think about it with, hopefully, fresh eyes and insights into it!
Can someone give me an idea of how this plays? I have it and have read it but don't quite grok how it will play. I guess I'm looking for specific examples in play of what a pact binder did. What role did they play in the party and how did they stack up against the other standard character classes?
I got this as a PDF and went to print it out and it wouldn't print out start from page one. Eventually, I figured out that if I started from page 7 of the pdf, labeled 5 in the book, that I could print the rest of the book no problem. This was with a double sided printer.
Playing with it more, this is what I found.
Adobe will not print page one, no matter what I do. It fails on flattening and won't print.
Adobe won't print any double sided attempts with page one. Won't happen.
Adobe won't print page three and four as a double sided page. It just fails to go to the printer. I don't even see it show up in my printer spooler.
Adobe will print page two as a single page but not page three as a single page.
Adobe will print page four as a single page.
Adobe will print page five and six (labeled nothing and page 4 in the PDF) as double sided if printed by themselves.
I did have it still in a zip archive and so upzipped and tried it again with the same results.
Finally, I used FoxIt and that printed the first six pages double sided (although that's more of a printer setting, I'm sure) first time.
(Please note that Adobe will use absolute pages with numbers whereas FoxIt will use the document's internal number system when printing pages.)
And we are back to Alternity! I will be running another Dark*Matter/Supernatural/WoD campaign using Alternity rules. My players have really enjoyed the Alternity rules and think it's a great system for modern/future games.
I'm also getting back into adding more to the Hero Lab files I created for Alternity.
At the moment, I have been naming people based on ethnic background, as mentioned above. However, are there any countries that have a national identity that have created their own names?
I'm wondering if a country like Ustalav is united enough with history such that it has many peoples but uses some common names?
Maybe the better examples are Galt and Andoran. I see Galt as France and would use medieval French names for them. Andoran, though, I could see as a place that many have gone for freedom and cast off their old ways to integrate into the country. Again, in that case, maybe there are many ethnic groups but they use similar names.
I'm putting names into Tablesmith and here is what I have done so far.
Varisian - Besides the given names, which get a higher chance of a hit, I used Gypsy names from Gygax's Ex Book of Names (GEBoN), D-Percent Bulgarian Names and D-Percent Romanian names.
Shoanti - Again, the suggested names from several official sources and then Celtic from GEBoN. I'm seeing that might not fit the best but not sure what else to use. Maybe Art of Wars American Indian names?
Taldan - I pulled the created Roman one in Tablesmith over but then also used Terra Ferrax's Roman names to add to it and also give more possibilities in patterns.
Chelish - then is Roman and Italian, pulling from modern as well as medieval.
(I have many sources for Roman names and so have combined many.)
Elves - Besides Elves of Golarion, I'm also using Terra Farrax's Elves, again with some good ideas for prefixes, suffixes and titles or nicknames in the patterns.
Half Elf - Either elf or human area from, as needed.
Kellids - Not sure what to do with this one yet other than source material.
Ulfen - Source material and I will be doing Norse and Viking for them, again from Art of War or others as I see them.
What I really want/need is to take what I have and make them fit. I have GEBoN, as mentioned, but also some name lists from various places. So, Gaelic from TF, various nationalities from D-Percent, and some other Art of War names. Anyone have any thoughts or do more with this zombie thread?
You seem to be describing the area I'm using for my campaign! It's the area NW of Korvosa and west of Kaer Maga. That seems as if it might fit the bill as well.
Overall, I would give the AP a 2.5. Looking back at everything, there is just too much I found lacking in the adventure. It had some really good highs, most notably the play in Sixfold Trial, but it had a lot of lows as well, mostly in its inability to give good advice or even tell assumptions that they had about the AP.
I ended up running the AP in this order: 1,2,3,5,4 with six being the ideas for politics all through the campaign. I think ending the campaign with the PCs fighting a freed Pit Fiend and a powered up Mayor and noble houses (I made those up) was better than the dungeon run that was four.
Advice for those going to run it:
Figure out what alignment you want and if they pick lawful or neutral, be prepared to make a LOT of changes. The AP seems to assume a chaotic, non lawful group who are willing to work outside of the law to save the city. That's fine if that's what you have and it does set up some of the concepts the AP introduces later. But if the players don't want to be outlaws, or are just lawful and wouldn't be outlaws, it'g going to take some figuring out on what to do.
Introduce the nobles and politics much sooner. Module six doesn't even read well as an adventure. It's all of these stand alone fights that serve only to give a final bonus to the end Fame Check without giving Fame itself. It's a confusing mess leading up to the confrontation with Eccardian and doesn't work. By the time the PCs free the city from Ilnerik's creatures of the night, the PCs had better already know the major families and some minor houses as well. Specifically, as much fun as the play is in module two, the Cornucopia needs a completely different agenda as well as more nobles in attendance. For a noble house not to be there is an insult. This should show the lines of which nobles are doing what and who they support. Information that the PCs can use later in how they approach the houses. (And none of this is spelled out, so DMs will need to figure this out. I personally went with three factions, one for the Council, one for the Mayor who was resentful of the power the council took from him, and one that just wants to help the city.)
I personally moved all of the action to Rego Cader and put Vizio's Tavern, Massacre House and the Devildrome all there. I then used the Ultimate Campaign to "map" out the region, so we could all see how it was going. The PCs slowly acquired land there and came to care for the people there, rather than running around vaguely helping the town.
Have at least two fights at night before the Night Terrors, as we called them, are defeated. Make them fights that the PCs must run from or die. If they think they can win by just fighting stuff, they will. In one fight, I had wave after wave of vampire spawn coming in from one side and some devil spell casters backed up by shadow creatures (I would have to look it up for the specifics if anyone wants to know) so that I didn't have to metagame and tell the players to run. (And I used those based on level. It could be waves of zombies or ghouls for lower level characters.) They got the point when the third avenue was cut off from escape and they could hear more from the other ways out. Further, it makes it a lot more personal when they do defeat the Night Terrors and know the streets are safe.
In the end, my group and I had a lot of fun and I did what I'm supposed to do as the GM, which is to run an adventure we will all enjoy. I think I did that. For my group, though, there is no way I could have run the AP straight up as it wouldn't have worked with Lawful characters. I could have suggested an alignment and course to go and run it a bit closer to how it was written but the players came to the table with characters and many aspects did work, including the two noble characters. So I used that rather than force something on them.
Again, I skipped module four and went to five. Well, that's not completely true. I'm using both five and six, at least the ideas of them, imo, although probably not that close.
Several things have changed. Again, the wiki shows more of the plot and I will try and limit what I talk about here to the modules themselves.
The group has a lot of alliances among the nobles, as I have said. Further, they are nobles and in good standing, even if a few other nobles don't like them, so module six as written wouldn't work.
To me, module six is the weakest. Introduce a situation/noble/council captain, maybe give some monologue and then have them join the PCs or die fighting. I have been doing politics, and am only now realizing how I didn't do enough, especially for this part. Instead, I introduced the Drovenges and they have politics there with the marriage. Eccobar, the tiefling guard and Duratos Arik brought their rivalry to the Rego Cader.
Since module four didn't happen, the mayor made a deal with Liebdaga to gain more power. However, Liebdaga's bonds are broken and he will be breaking out for my ultimate showdown. In the meantime, the mayor, bolstered by his new abilities and power, has given those nobles on his side more (political/military) power, including the Dottari. He couldn't replace Arik without cause so sent Eccobar there to find cause to take over.
This has brought tension to their area. (Again, they have a tavern, the Massacre House and maybe even Vizio's, which I placed here, as their own.) They are trying to do patrols to keep the area safe but they keep having problems. Further, Arael and Janiven have been fighting and divided the Children. This has made it tense for Arik, Eccobar and the Hellknights that are under one of the PCs control, himself a Hellknight. Their equipment has been attacked, rusting and destroying weapons and armor. The group suspects Eccobar or the Children, the Hellknights blame the Children but there is no proof.
This brings me back to module six. I took the idea of the dopplegangers, which I made greater dopplegangers, and had them kill Janiven months ago and take her place. Slowly, they sowed the seeds of discord among the Children. They also got one of their clan into the Dottari. I didn't think they could pull off the Hellknights, so they weren't infiltrated. All along, then, the group couldn't figure out what was going on. I had them impersonate whoever would cause the most trouble and then get out of there.
Important note: One of the things we decided as a group was that if the PCs ever get to roll, and roll well, then they get information. If I call for a roll, it means there is something for them to learn. If they roll but I don't call for it, I don't have to reveal anything.
Given that note, I set up Janiven and Arael as not agreeing and them slightly not liking Janiven early on. When the (greater) dopplegangers take over, they are very subtle about it and there just isn't any chance for the PCs to figure this out without using magic on them, which they never did. They wanted to find out but couldn't. Further, with three dopplegangers, any of whom could impersonate any of the Children, and eventually got found out that way, it allowed the dopplegangers to have the one questioned able to speak the truth that they didn't have anything to do with whatever the PCs were asking about! The group eventually figured out about the dopplegangers but the dopplegangers fled before the PCs could take care of them. Before doing so, though, all of the Children except Arael are killed and one of the mixed Hellknight orders are as well, keeping tension high.
Another thing that is keeping tensions high is that rumors kept happening about taxes, which the mayor finally imposed on Rego Cader, and managed to get the PCs to agree to be the tax collectors! They knew right away what I was doing, potentially setting them up to be the bad guys, but the PCs paid the monthly taxes out of their own pocket. Rumors still happened but they managed to keep those low.
In the midst of all of this, I run module five mostly as written. I have Arael be the target of the assassination, though, not the PCs with the PCs able to stop it. Then Dog Tongue shows up. They go to the Mother of Flies, get the gifts and contract, and head back. (There is some great stuff on the wiki about specifics, including a teleport mishap, which ends up creating an enemy and getting a powerful item.)
We just finished with the fighting at Wallcourt, which I beefed up for my group. They have reached fifteenth level and two Mythic tiers as well. So they are about to rescue Eirteen, one of the PC's uncle, and go from there.
I can't speak too much more yet about other things, although I am reasonably sure my PCs don't frequent these forums. But the new enemy created and the final showdown with Liebdaga are yet to come as they fight for city!
I think the module has some good ideas but does not flesh them out well enough in these later modules. Further, the later modules really had elements that needed to be introduced at least at the Mayor's party, back in module two, and then work them into it more as the module happened. At least, that's my opinion and what I have been doing.
Another note: Remember that 3E/PF is based on the long game, not the immediate fight. There is just NO WAY that I have seen that the first fight, against rested well played PCs, will be a challenge to them. As long as the fight is withing their CR range (say +/- 3), that first fight won't be tough. The second might not even be tough. But that third and then fourth? Those will be the tough fights. Those are the fights where the casters are low on spells and using backup items. They front line people might not get buffed anymore. To me, this is a big downside of the system because, at least so far, with the politics happening, they just don't have many fights in a day. Wallcourt and Delvehaven are the only places where it happens. The fight in the Devildrome is not challenging because they are ready. Same for the ambush. Even the fight with the forces besieging the Mother of Flies was not terribly tough. So what I needed to (re)learn as a DM was to pace myself and hit them with several fights before the big one, so that it was a challenge. Otherwise, most of the fights seemed to easy. I'm not sure what I will do in some big fights coming up but the other side of that is, at this level, the more prep time they have, the more powerful they are due to Energy Protection, boosted stats, and other buffs. If those have to happen during combat, I think it makes it a lot more tense.
More as I think of it or it happens. Questions and comments always welcome!
Now we are in the grey area. My intention is to run module five, go into module six and at some point in the confrontation, have the mayor's house explode and they have to go save the city from the free and fully functional battle sta-, er, pit fiend.
Two of the players decided they wanted to play nobles. Worked for me so I let them pick by showing them the list of houses and explaining the difference between the major and minor ones. One guy picked a minor house and one picked a major house. It took me until I was re-reading module five to realize what they had done. One picked the Chard house and the other Oberigo. The only houses outside of the mayor and Drovenges, which I didn't allow, that had a written part in the module! This was with no prompting from me!
So, we have had a lot of politics. My group didn't join up with the Children of Westcrown but went on their own very quickly. They quickly gained an Inn/Tavern and built that up and put money into it. Then they claimed Massacre House and set up some Order of the Scourge Hellknights, one of the guys is a Hellknight of that order, up in the Rego Cader to help patrol it and make it safe. They befriended the Duxator of the Rego and were helping him keep the peace and help people against the night terrors.
The two nobles are now being pushed into marrying, which is allowing me to introduce the other houses and the politics. The mayor is making their life hell by assigning the noble who wanted to be Duxator of the Rundottari as the Duxotar's lieutenant, and he's making trouble for everyone. Further, the Children of Westcrown are causing problems because Arael and Janiven are fighting about how best to free their area and help the rest of the city. And it's causing the players problems as well as the Children of Westcrown antagonize both the Hellknights and Dottari, both of whom are trying to help, thanks to the PCs efforts!
This is probably all confusing but you can read about our sessions in more detail at the wiki. The wiki link.
It's been a lot of fun and it took me a while to figure out what I wanted to do with the last modules. I think I'm going to try and get that frantic activity and have them pulled from one disaster to another and see how well they do. Having said that, I do want them to act and not always react, and I'm sure my players will again take me off guard!
I was worried about whether or not the rest of the modules would last through the end of June but I think the fighting coming up as well as the marriages, it should work out about right. Which means we have averaged about one module a month, or every four sessions.
We finished up What Lies in Dust and had a lot of fun with it.
The bad. Actually, I'm having a tough time coming up with anything that stands out as bad.
The good. The non linear aspect of the individual parts was good. My players jumped around a bit in terms of the order to get the clues of Delvehaven but I think they let them feel like they were in control and that's good. Further, we have a LOT of background stuff happening that eventually came to the foreground.
The group ended up doing a ritual to restore all of K and bound her to them. Further, they are working to change her to at least neutral. I'm allowing it as it's a good story.
I expanded on the Massacre House area and created my own maps. The group is doing very well in trying to find lawful ways to go about things and it took a while to get that reason to search around and find Coriana's remains. And then they took me off guard and raised her! She ended up going with them to Delvehaven, I made her a Warpriest, and she was a very good NPC. She didn't overshadow them and felt like she was holding them back when they helped her. She's still around but is helping in the background compared to going with them anymore.
The arena fights went well but since they are higher level, I did up the adversaries Mantathror used against them. Still a good fight!
Delvehaven itself ended up taking three sessions. However, that's only because we started it late one session. Otherwise, it would have been two full sessions to complete it. They had Coriana and K telling them about things and it still took that long!
I did end up making the soul bound dolls quicklings with their listed attacks and special abilities. I think that made more sense. They still only lasted a round but got the creepy point across.
I did use the ideas of the vampires in the module thread about Vahnwynne attacking first, and then Jair letting the Mazeflesh Man go next. However, instead of spawn, I gave them Marrowstone Golems. Further, while Vahnwynne was a single attacker, Jair came forward before they were completely done with the Mazeflesh man when Jair saw how powerful the group was. It was a very close, very exciting fight with them just managing to pull it off!
I think I could give this module a solid four stars for the adventure. I liked the grave candles but the players paid for the resurrection and other rituals, so didn't need as many. I think the setup to find the clues and get the help is also quite good. If anything stand out as bad, it's my understanding that the traps on the grounds of Delvehaven are basically death traps? The characters get caught in a swarm which does damage each round, automatically, for a hundred rounds? Otherwise, a solid adventure.
I had Sian near the entrance because of the ambush she set up in that first hallway. (I suppose, as an explanation, she could have left the Knot but heard them coming and went back in to ambush them.) My group was curious about the body in the hallway and while they were examining it, Sian thought she could take out one of them and then get away.
She was wrong.
Two quick rounds later, she was trapped and eventually surrendered to them. As the PCs were lawful, they accepted it and she honored the bargain she made to get out of there alive. My thought was to add her into the ambush in Mother of Flies, or sometime later, since she was not happy she was defeated!
Correction: I'm using the fast advancement but not from PF but from 3E! Um, wow! Very big difference that I didn't notice. It's no problem for me to adjust things but we are starting the last part of module three and they are several levels ahead of where they should be.
One of the themes of this AP, to me, is the fighting the corruption of the city. To that end, we have done a lot of background stuff in the foreground! What I mean is, I introduced Ultimate Campaign because the group took over the Tavern from the Bastards and turned that into their base. So it became easier to show corruption by getting into those details, instead of just talking about them. I was able to introduce the Rundottari's duxator and his rivalry. I was then able to have the rival come in and start to ruin things! Basically, show the corruption and have the group be affected by it due to their owning a tavern, instead of just telling about it.
The early parts of What Lies in Dust, the information gathering, have gone well. They opened the Chelish Crux, more on that later, and used the items within to good use. What really surprised me was when they got some good treasure and decided to raise Coriana instead of just talk to her! Further, they restored "K" and made a bargain for her to serve them! I love it when players surprise me! This has made the group more powerful but it has been a lot of fun!
I'm hoping that we finish up Delvehaven tomorrow but then comes the big challenge. As I think I said, I'm going to tun the modules out of order and have four be the finale in some way. I'm still working out details on that. So I have done a lot of work on how to switch the order around and what that means.
We are still enjoying it and having a lot of fun with it. I will get into the specific details that we did after we finish up the module but I wanted to put out a quick update.
Okay, we finished module two. I would give the module two and a half stars, rounded up to three.
Bad:
Overall, I think DCs are set too high. Any DC that is higher than about 17 needs to be reduced to at least 17 if not lower. Maybe the skill checks could be 20 and that's still tough.
As I said above, the Cornucopia needed a bit more fleshing out in terms of who was there. Further, I think more ideas about when the nobles would leave, if there were guards/servants that needed to also be incapacitated before the PCs could search the house would have helped as well. Even if just a guard schedule to get an idea that they are there.
The Asmodean Knot was not very good, either. The CRs were all over the place, especially for "standard" 15 point buy fourth level characters. It challenged my PCs and they are much better than that! However, two things especially stand out:
For me, the descriptions of the Tower of Perpetuity (B3) was not done very well. I get that on the plane, anything can happen, but it still needs to be described and then turned into a challenge for the party. I think either a skill challenge of some type, or suggested skills for bonuses to moving around (Knowledge(Planes) or Knowledge(Arcana)) might have been good. However, that pales compared to
the Knot's Heart (B21) is just wrong for this dungeon. I don't know why a Lawful devil that is keeping this going would allow for such a chaotic device. Further, the descriptions given on how to defeat it don't fit such low level characters. I think this one needed to be reworked and rethought. I think a logic puzzle instead with skill rolls to give hints would have been better than this chaotic mess.
The artwork was not very good. Whenever I told my players that a character (Calseinica or Ailyn) was a good looking woman and then showed them the picture? They thought I was showing them a picture of a homely looking male character and so thought they misunderstood me. Even Crosael and Sascar aren't drawn as they are described. I personally don't notice art that much but when my players commented on it, I thought I would mention it.
The good, though, certainly outweighs the bad in this case.
Good:
The play itself was awesome! I realized too late that I could have them read only one scene per showing, to give five to seven showings, depending on few things. I think this would have also allowed for more fame or at least to improve upon rolls. It also would have made more sense, to me, in how they are heard because I think it would have taken two shows before someone like the Lord Mayor would bother to see it. But I think that's more my execution of it than the module itself.
The xp given for role playing was very nice! Some very good ideas for xp and there was easily enough for a level based on role playing. I really appreciated that.
I think this module does a much better job of setting up just how decadent and corrupt the nobles and leaders of the town of Westcrown are. I think that helps set the mood and tone and show the players what their characters are fighting against.
The ideas of some of the bad guys and at least introducing several of the NPCs was quite well done. I also like the final boss, the Outcast King. I didn't get to use the Flawed One as they did manage to bypass him but I think that worked out.
The falling chute corridors really freaked out the PCs such that they tied themselves together and it saved them when the first four failed their checks!
The trapped or insane devils in the Knot were also quite fun to run and really added character to the place.
A few more points, not related to the module. I am using the fast advancement route as well as 25 point buy characters who started a third level. And for all of that, they only got two levels ahead of where they should be. I think that's pretty good for the fights and xp given.
I'm using Campaign Coins and it's awesome! (I know these are expensive but there are a lot of alternatives, from printing fantasy money to plastic coins that other's have used.) I think their ability to hold their coin pouch in their hand and realize that it's quite a bit of money has really been fun and they enjoy it.
I also used Realm Works to reveal the map of the Asmodean Knot and that worked really well! (I'm sure a local running of maptools or other similar type program could do this as well.) I then would draw on the Plexiglas the specific room where a fight occurred.
Thanks for reading. Specifics and some plot points can be found at our wiki.
We are about four fifths of the way through module two. We have done the play and that was a lot of fun. We did the party and I think it went well but had questions on it. We are currently in the Asmodean Knot.
I think the play is awesome! My only complaint is that they need some foot notes as it took reading about it here on the message boards and three readings on my part to really understand the characters and convey that to the group. I think a quick summary of characters, even as a web enhancement, could have fixed this.
For myself, the Cornucopia was difficult. I found it quite tough to introduce six new NPCs that the party then had to interrogate. I think that's because I didn't know how to introduce them all, and describe the feast, and then run them to the point of having revealing conversations with them. Perhaps if these had been NPCs that had been introduced earlier, it would have been easier for me. I think my troubles are because I'm an introvert and so not sure how to do all of that. I think it went well, or at least well enough, but it could have gone better.
(Too late I found out with enough prep time my wife, and maybe her friend, would have helped me with this by playing a few of the NPCs. I am really going to keep that in mind for anything else like this!)
However, I was impressed with the xp for role playing, both the play and the party. I'm also happy to use flip maps when I can and while I know they can't do specific ones, more suggestions on a flip map that would work would have been cool. (I think they did suggest one for the sewers but am not sure on it.)
Overall, we are enjoying it and I'm trying to play it as close as I can to how it's written. I was hoping it would last for the year but now I don't see that happening as we seem to be getting through a module every five weeks or so.
I will get a bit more detailed once we have finished this module.
Ouch in that I'm about to start SixFold Trial and I'm looking forward to it. However, I really wonder if the characters would do it, with two of them being nobles? And two of them being lawful? I will probably present it to them as written and see what they want to do. (I know two players are excited for the play, one is interested and one isn't thrilled so I will see how that plays out as well.)
As others have said, and myself, I think the ideas are really good. I like the idea of the characters, ending around thirteenth level and freeing Westcrown. That can set up the DM's own follow up for something else in the country, in some way.
I agree that expectations have to be managed. Three or four of the modules just to get rid of the night monsters? I'm reasonably certain that my players will have lost the reason why they are doing the fourth long dungeon crawl.
We have now finished the first module. I would rate it at two and a half stars. I'm having a tough time pushing that up or down as it really seems to fit at two and a half.
While it had some good ideas and does set up some things, I think the execution was off.
Bad:
I think expectations need to be better managed about the scope of the adventure, as others have mentioned. The adventure is set in Westcrown for most of the adventure and does not deal with the country as a whole, for example.
I think that the Children of Westcorwn leaders could have been written much better in that I think it should have accounted for the type of group the players create. If the group is lawful, they should be pulled into it via Arael, and if Chaotic, then use Janiven as written. Or at least give the DM the choice, with options on either side. As written, they are rebels but Lawful characters shouldn't want that.
I think the whole adventure in the sewers needs to be redone. Perhaps instead of the sewers, they should have given a page or two to the ideas on Page 33, More Heroics, instead of the sewers. A Lawful group shouldn't find themselves running from the law!
I did not catch that the Rego Cedar was walled off from the rest of the town. That makes no sense to me. Why was that not taken back years ago? I think the map, though, is where this really needs to be shown better.
Westcrown needs a sourcebook. It should include the relationships between the houses and how they are done and how they work. I also want more explanation of what the minor houses do for the major houses. Was this a merger of like interests? A hostile takeover? By marriage? Further, how many layers does the city have underneath it? This is a town that was settled millenia ago! What kind of magic did Taldar use when building it? What does the academy do? Why do the sewers have few ways into them? Is no maintenance required? If not, why not? There are too many questions left unanswered about the backdrop of the adventure.
The motivation for the Hellkinghts as bad guys is completely lacking. They are the bad guys because . . . the adventure needs bad guys. I think this could be left as a nice red herring where it comes out that the leader of the group of Hellknights pursuing them was also a Council member, or a Council lackey. The Rundottari could have easily filled this role with little changes.
I think the rescue of Arael would have been better if the Bastards of Erebus had been the ones to capture him. It would have tied into the adventure better and left the Hellknights to be neutral at this point.
Good:
I like the setup a lot. I like a city adventure that has the options for politics or dungeon crawling.
What I ended up doing:
Characters:
LN Fighter 3 (wants to be a Hellknight, is a noble in a minor house but are were exiled from Egorian to Westcrown in the past five years to the family's holdings here.)
LN Inquisitor 3 (follower of Iomadae, staying at a church. I still have other gods worshiped in Westcrown but a family or person can't get ahead in politics without worshiping Asmodeus)
NG Summoner 3 (also a noble and a member of a major family house, Oberigo.)
Rogue/Socerer 1/2 (The rogue level was more for background as he now resides in the academy)
I ended up making the following changes, some of which I have said before but I'm putting it all in once place, as I ran this module:
I introduced the tiefling gang sooner for some foreshadowing.
I used Mad God's Key from Dungeon as the opening adventure. I had the key be a tool of the demon Shax and had a cult that wanted to unlock a ritual book to help them bring their master into the city. While the PCs did stop this, I am tempted to see what I can do for extra adventures about them (legally) hunting down demonic cults that are trying to be formed.
I had Arael preaching to people around town, especially the poor and residents of (my non ruined) Rego Cedar. I had him and Janiven get along but both want to bring about change in very different ways and I have played that up. (My thought is to have Janiven potentially break off to her own like minded group at some point.) They both want change but do argue about how to do it, due to alignment.
In having Arael around, I had the group go into an old family crypt (a family that no longer exists due to the civil war, so it was legal for them to do this) and made up a dungeon with Dark Stalkers and Dark Creepers with demonic images and possibilities. Arael and Janiven both went with, as did a few Children of Westcrown, and were very helpful in the adventure.
I used the flip mats for the fights with the Bastards. My group wanted to investigate the robberies and stop them, so I used a city streets flip map and set up three different targets. The group had to position themselves and those Children of Westcrwon that came along to help in various places. I had the Bastard's leaders have amulets that gave them protection from the creatures of night, such that we did have one fight after dusk. I then had a creature like the Shadowgarm from the bestiary, although a bit more powerful, be pulled toward the fighting. My point was to show how powerful and tough the creatures of the night were and I think I succeeded in that.
I then used the Theives' Guild flip mat for the base of the Bastards, including a tavern. The group defeated the few that fled to here and I had them find the deed to it as well, so they got a tavern out of it. However, that's because, at the moment, all of them are living separately and I'm hoping this will pull them together into one location. I will see how well that works.
I'm looking forward to the Sixfold Trial and will see how it plays with my group! More as it happens.
Thanks for reading. As usual, comments and questions are welcome!
We gamed again and again I'm amazed at how much of the first module I'm not using, at least in terms of plot. I'm still trying to introduce the elements needed for the module and am closer. I did manage to introduce Thesing, so that was good. I'm still hoping to introduce a few more nobles, in name only not in person, so that the names are known for later reveals. I still have a bit to do with that.
I think I'm still two or three sessions before we will be done with the first module. I'm going to try and run the Bastards part as written if I can. Once that is done I shouldn't need to have them wait that long before we go to the next module.
I do have two characters who are nobles, so I'm able to introduce some of those elements into the story now. That's working out mostly well.
I'm using a lot of other PF books to bring in information. I ended up introducing a demon worshiping group and I think that contrasts well with the devils of the country. It also makes it legal to root them out for the lawful characters. To that end, I'm using the books of the Damned for the names and information in there. I'm also checking out Chronicles of the Righteous in case I want to introduce anything from there. Not sure if that will happen yet.
I have updated the wiki with plot details of the past sessions if anyone is interested. It is more notes style from a player, so combat end up getting a lot of play by play notes.
If your store carries it, Hero Lab? But it would cost you some extra to get more than the CRBs for it. It would help players track everything and then you would have a copy of their characters.
I also like the combat tracker! Quite nice. Makes it really easy, imo.
I can get behind Advanced Class Guide if you, and the store, can wait that long.
The Inner Sea NPC Codex is good but does us Prestige Classes from Golarion.
I thought the Chase cards were good and they are coming out with another set this year.
I use Hero Lab and have Realm Works. I am entering information into Realm Works. It's a bit of work but it's really going to help me organize everything, including my thoughts and what has happened. That's my hope, anyway!
The wiki as I mentioned where I post session notes and other details.
We had our second session and as much as I have prepared, I'm still surprised by what the players want to do and what I'm going to do.
As I said, I started with the Mad God's Key. We ended with the group having retrieved the key from the cult that had taken it so they could open up the book on their masters and summon one of them. I made them demon worshipers, in contrast to the devils that are worshiped, so that no one would mind what happened to them.
We had to introduce the fourth player who is playing a summoner and did go with a celestial look to his eidolon. A really good back story that I need to find ways to use as the module progresses. The player had his character go into secret to summon his eidolon and on the way to do so, was spotted by the group. As he is a caster, the sorcerer and him knew each other from the academy. My players were pretty good about forcing a few things to get the group together, which I appreciated!
In this adventure, Arael convinces them to legally go plundering in an old vault that he found in the ruined area. He would give it back to any who have a legal claim on it but picked the one he did as he's certain the family was wiped out in the civil war. It had been around for a long time and probably had some good wealth that they could use to make the north ruins safer.
Now, here is where I made a mistake. I had the opening door into the area be a very tough DC such that it required the use of the key. This caused some metagaming. The rogue player made some good rolls to try and pick the lock but kept setting off traps. He could find the traps but didn't manage to disarm them, although a few bad rolls explained that. To that end, the player wondered if the dungeon was going to be more tough than they could handle and if they should instead back off? However, I had Arael and Janiven with them and they decided they could go.
I think this comes from our time not playing DND. In other skill systems, it might take longer but they still allow a chance for something to be done. Coming back to DND after being away for so long and I think the players remembered that levels mean something and they might not be able to handle everything now! So, it was metagaming but we managed to work past it and keep going.
At the same time, I did enjoy that they thought about whether or not they should go into this dungeon. I don't think I have ever had players who considered NOT doing something before! And as we are playing an AP, and I do have NPCs, I will nudge them or not about what I think but let them decide and then let the dice fall where they may.
I had them fight some low CR creatures and while not exactly easy they did win out. I'm sure when the full party is back together, the fights won't seem so bad!
Andrea1 - I agree! In fact, this got me thinking about a lot of the first module. I'm hoping to still introduce the elements I need for later modules but am going to expand the adventures in part six and have them do more stuff for the town and the commoners before I go onto the second module. Thanks!
Other tools.
I got Campaign Coins a long time ago but haven't had an opportunity to use them much. However, Golarion is letting me use them exactly as they are! I suddenly realized that as much as I have grumbled (in other forums) about how old the world is, this is now really working for me! So now I can introduce and use coins of various denominations and it works out! I still want to use the names of the coins, at least as far as the metals used, but now can have different styles of them. At the moment, they all have their money in coins! I'm going to keep doing it this way until it becomes too much of a burden to track things this way. But I really like them and am hoping to do more with them.
I also have some beads used in jewelry making to simulate gems. Again, I have ideas of how to use them more than just money and I hope that it gives them more options and is interesting.
I also have minis and a piece of Plexiglas over a grid map to draw out maps as needed. In fact, I unpacked my minis and got them on shelves, so have more of my resources available! Now I just need to make the flip mats and other map tools I have easily accessible!
It's going well but with regards to the first module, I do think it needs a lot of tweaking, not only for my players but also to make it fit better for the introduction to the AP as a whole.
More as I think of it. Questions and comments welcome!
In prepping this, I like to have details that occur in the background. things like, what weapons does the area use? What food do they eat? What are they known for in those areas? What about drink? Daily life sort of things.
I have Living Fantasy and World Builder to help me answer some of those questions, modified as I see them fitting.
One of the things that I have been thinking about is how old an empire Taldar is and what kind of effect that had on its former colonies. There was a line in Bastard of Erebus about how the sewers are actually closed off and not easily accessed except at certain points. And that got me thinking about magic and how old cities such as Westcrown were built and maintained.
To that end, I'm thinking that millenia ago, when Westcrown was first built using Taldaron magic, they set it up so that the sewers take care of themselves. They use the river to flush themselves out and keep themselves clean. Indeed, there is also magic to make sure the water never floods the sewers and especially not the town above. The Regicona, or island, is also protected against such things. Somehow that magic has lasted. The same magic also keeps smells down. Even at the height of summer with a fresh load of fish coming into the docks, the smell is not offensive. (I was thinking this wouldn't work as we do use our nose to detect spoiled foods but with purify or preserve spells, I'm not sure that would be much of a problem.)
I don't know how far to take that, though, as there are many labor intensive jobs at this time that would involve very strong smells. I'm thinking about tanning, dyeing and probably many others.
Along those lines, I see a lot of other passive type magics that the citizens just accept. I haven't figured out all of it but maybe protection from fire or a pyrotechnic effect to minimize fires.
What I really want is almost self repairing things but that might take away from summoning devils to do that kind of work? OTOH, it means that they don't call devils lightly for menial tasks. Hmm.
My thought on this was instead of a cottage industry, they had industrial revolution magic, in terms of the textiles. Maybe large, magic looms that help make cloth? Maybe smaller scale mass production of things like paper?
I'm also one of the ones who was asking why Golarion has been "stagnant" technologically speaking, for the past several thousand years. The one thought I had was that an arcane inventor comes up with the loom but then doesn't share how he did it. Further, he built it to last, and no one wants to mess with it in case they ruin it! So then you have a cycle where it takes centuries to make an improvement on something because the base of it is magic, which not everyone can use.
I definitely see this happening in Taldar and it being so much part of their lives, they don't notice it. However, maybe another good reason to fight the devils is that their presence is starting to erode the magic of the city?
The other module that I read but rejected was Hangman's Noose. I didn't feel I had enough time to prep for it and it was going to be too disparate at the time, introducing NPCs that I would then want to use later. Again, Mad God's Key seemed to fit better and took less work as the opener for Bastards of Erebus. If I had had more time, this might have been a better way to introduce some later Council members. But I usually do that, introduce the villains early in the game. And while I might have a good confrontation at that point, I also have players who then want to rush off and fight them right then! So, I'm going to wait on the reveal as long as I can.
Besides the characters I mentioned before, we might be gaining a fourth player. He's planning on playing a Summoner. However, as players, or at least my players, are wont to do, he's going to make his Eidolon look like a celestial creature. In Cheliax! Again, I'm sure we can get it to work and it will be fun!
I'm also considering how to expand the AP when I'm done and possibly allow them to go Mythic, but that might not be until much later. One of the ideas I had was to follow Janiven's speech and have them go to Egorian and deal with the queen! But I haven't done more than jot that down as an idea for the future.
More basics:
We play once a week at my house for about four hours.
I try and provide snacks and drinks for them.
I do have a grid map, and many flip maps, but am using a smaller kitchen table. Since we have been playing other systems that used a more abstract system for combat, I haven't needed the space. So not sure if this means that I will have to break out my bigger tables for the room.
I also have minis, plastic and metal, that I have gotten over the years. As much as I like the metal ones, the plastic ones seem to be more practical and easier to use! However, again, I don't have them all out at the moment! So, I might have to see if I can free up some room and get them out.
More as I think of it. This information is not too organized at the moment and I apologize for that. At the moment it's been more about prep and all of the ideas that I have had, sometimes as I think of them. I hope to collect the thoughts at the end.
Wow. Those are really good points and to be honest, even after reading through the AP and the Cheliax supplement, I either didn't catch or they didn't emphasize all of the other bad things happening.
Spoilers!
The AP itself deals more with the PCs dealing with the reason for the curfew, the monsters that stalk the streets at night. It does deal with a devil out of control but that's almost a (big) side mission than the point of the AP. In fact, one of the complaints I read about the AP was that the Council itself wasn't fleshed out enough and most only appear in time to be fought by the PCs. I'm not saying I'm going to stick that close to the AP, and you do bring up some good points about having devil worshipers around town for them to deal with.
However, if they devil worshipers do find themselves slipping to CE, they might find their powers are gone as the devils won't stand for that! Demons, however, might. And now you have me thinking about Westcrown being a potential battlefield for demons and devils, as well as their worshipers, fighting it out!
My group and I switched to Pathfinder and are trying to make 2014 the year of Pathfinder! To that end, we picked Council of Thieves as our AP. I thought that I would chronicle it and how it goes here.
My first thought was that it would be easy. I'm used to making up my own adventures but I decided to try an AP for various reasons. We have found that open ended games, with no goals, mean that we tend to lose steam with them about six to eight months in and then switch to a new game. I'm hoping not to do that so picked an AP. I'm a sand box DM but I can also bring things around to what I had planned for the most part, usually without the players realizing it. I say that because I didn't want to force them to play anything. Maybe I should have.
Two of the players decided to play LN characters, with one admiring the Hellknights! However, he picked the Order of the Scourge, which doesn't like thieves, so that works out well. And it was also my first challenge. After reading a lot about the AP and the Hellknights, it seems as if the HKs are painted as the bad guy . . . because. Except for the first module when they are being chased by them, though, the HK don't really make much of an appearance in the module as the bad guy. To that end, I might have the Order of the Nail be a bit rough but am still not sure if they will be all bad.
After a lot of reading, I was also sure that the opening idea wouldn't work for my group. (LN Fighter, who wants to be a HK. LN Inquisitor. NG Sor/Rog.) While the NG character might have no problems joining up with rebels or a resistance, the other two are doing well playing Lawful people and not wanting to break the laws but do want to make things better. Instead, I have had Arael making his speeches, especially in the Dospera, and the group caught it. As I figured, the two Lawful characters like the idea of working within the law to make things better. (I didn't include the speech of Janiven's as I agree it sets up a wrong impression of the AP as a whole.) But I did have Janiven talk to the NG character to introduce her and get that player's thoughts on things.
When that finished up, I then went into Mad God's Key, an adventure from Dungeon that several suggested as a better opening. The Fighter had really good AC but still got hit several times while the others weren't hit as much. It ended up a good fight and we stopped before they could go after the key. I thought it worked well.
(I considered the other module suggested, although I don't remember the name of it, but decided for my group that Mad God's Key fit better.)
I still have a lot of things to figure out. What I have figured out is that the Eponymous Council of thieves wants to take over the town and that would make it worse, especially for the characters. I'm hoping that will be enough motivation for them to see it through.
Questions and suggestions welcome. I hope to post more as we go.
If anyone is interested, I have a wiki for this as well. http://dmgaming.pbworks.com/w/page/71416606/PF%20-%20Council%20of%20Thieves
I would agree that it's more feudal than based on the Byzantine Empire.
I think the reason Taldor is so decadent is that Oppara thinks that it is safe and doesn't care what happens "out there" as long as the money/taxes/goods keep flowing into the city. I would go so far as to say that they think their armies can stop anything and aren't worried about it. In this, I think they are deluding themselves.
I further agree that each Prefecture is subdivided into many different areas. I see the ones near Oppara, or to the north but not northeast as being the most desirable with the borders being least desirable. Within that division, I think the borders are struggling more than the capital is willing to admit.
(For some reason, I'm imagining the dust bowl conditions of the midwest compared to what Washington DC thought was happening but I'm sure there's a better historical analogy.)
However, if it is Byzantine, then it means these prefectures are up for grabs in who rules it every so often, and there is no hint of that from what I read. It could be implemented, though, and would be a source of politics as each family strives to make sure they have the desired prefectures. However, if it's feudal, as we have said, than it's all hereditary, in some manner, and fixed in where each noble family is.
What do you think? I personally like the idea of it being Byzantium and the chance that a family might lose prestige and wealth if they lose control of a prefecture. They will still have one, but not one that is seen as prestigious. It also adds a layer of politics that could turn deadly to keep what they have.
From what I can tell, there used to be a lot of canals but they stopped maintaining them for some reason. They are now either dried up or mires or bogs across the land.
In reading the guide on Andoran, it lists two things relevant to this.
One, that Andoran is as advanced as the other nations.
Two, that Andoran has water clocks.
While this doesn't allow for personal timepieces, it does mean that most homes or businesses could have a clock visible. It also means that the town itself could have a main clock by which to tell time.
Given that, I would expand what Matt says and say that the big cities have a Big Ben like clock that can sound out the times for all to hear. Towns or smaller probably have exactly what he said, with a town crier or the watch calling out times. However, the smaller they get, specific times might not be needed. People would know at dark the market would close, for example, but maybe special occasions would need to be announced.
We are getting into details on this and that's not my point. The point of this thread was what about Golarion bugs you. My bigger gripe is that all information about a place isn't in one place but instead is spread out over multiple source books. I hope that at some point, they collect that information.
As for the science and age of the planet, that was me liking a good discussion! I do think what I said is true. Again, going back to the OP, my point is that it would be easy for the developer's to clarify this by saying how technology works, why the timeline is so long and other items. I do think it's on the developer to say where things differ from earth. I'm putting the burden of clarification on them! I do that because it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that in the absence of any other explanation, I look to the real world to clarify questions that I have.
I get the feeling that the nobles of Taldor send out expeditions for strange and exotic animals to be brought back. If they happen to have a military use, so much the better!
Or, if possible, after all of the Armies of Exploration sent such specimens back, various groups worked to keep them around, either by domestication or by introducing them to the wild.
And some people are assuming experimental science works as it does on Earth and that progress should have been made (the way it has been on Earth) and that Golarion should be different. But, according to the cannon it's not. It simply is the way it is. So, maybe your assumptions on how things work there (just like they do irl) is the problem?
As I said in a previous post, take the cannon Golarion as fact and try to figure out why it is, not just dismiss it as "wrong". Unless you do your own homebrew world, then it's all up to you. Or do your own version of Golarion's history for your home game.
I get where you are coming from but again the evidence of Golarion itself does NOT back this up.
Released modules have the world in a solar system. They have moons, other planets and they revolve around their sun. They have established this themselves.
They use the term knight and define it the same way it was used in Earth's history. Same for phalanx, cavalry, chivalry. These are concepts with specific meanings in our world and they aren't changing them for their own world. If they had at least put Egypt, er, Osirion in a cold climate or a forested one, that might give them some leeway. But they even converted the Nile!
Further, there is only one place where they have gone beyond medieval technology, which is the repeating rifle and pistol that can be found in Alkenstar. Everything else we see, from clothing styles, wooden ships built, architecture, except for Azlanti ruins, fits in the Medieval time period. There is no place that uses magic in place of technology. Everything I have read shows that magic either enhances technology or is an individual endeavor, as other's have pointed out. There is also nothing that we have seen to show that earth sciences wouldn't work there. Indeed, Numeria and the Mana Wastes show that technology CAN work on Golarion!
Given all of that, I don't see how it can be on the reader to infer anything but an earth like progression and therefore wonder at the stagnation or the long time interval.
I get that I can do my own thing in my game. I'm saying that I am trying to do as you suggest and see a way to make what has been put to print to work. It's tough to do that when everything points to an earth like progression but then they have too long of a timeline.
Tels - The problem with your good arguments is that what we see in the books doesn't back this up.
In our world, we progressed from various ages, based on the major material being used. So stone age, bronze age, iron age and from there the middle ages (although that's bad nomenclature). The reason we had that progression is that's what was used as tools. It was "easy" to pick up a rock and use it as a weapon or to shape a rock into an arrowhead. Copper melts easily, but it's not until we discovered alloys and created bronze, did humans have a low melting point metal that they could forge. Once they understood that, then they could use iron.
Having said that (and it was not my intent to lecture but to make sure we are on the same page), here is my problem.
Azlant technology was nearly Steampunk/Magitech level of technology, from what we have seen in the various modules. Again, it's scattered, but the spellbooks described in Shattered Star are nearly holographic computers, capable of displaying any spell they contain! Further, not only did Azlant have steel, but they also worked with the various skymetals to make things as well.
Then we have Earthfall. That's all well and good but we have no resulting loss of technology! There is no mention of going back to a stone age for a thousand years and then bronze and forward. Weapons are mostly assumed to be steel or other similar materials. The 6000 year old empire of Taldor, built from Azlanti refugees, has iron or steel items as well.
That's the problem with the technology and timeline. They may have huge catastrophic events but the write ups show them having no loss of technology. Yet still it stagnates.
As an aside, as I look at the Taldor book, I'm reminded of the problem of the way information is presented to us. Instead of us being told all about a city under the cities listing, we also have to remember that something is mentioned about the city's religious holidays in the geography section, and that its population is mentioned under another heading due to something there! It makes it tough to look these things up when the information is scattered around like that!
They list two APs, Curse of the Crimson Throne and Shattered Star, without mentioning Rise of the Runelords. They also list Pathfinder Society modules, and two or three other books. I could easily add more books, the least of which is Inner Sea Magic, to get details on Thasslion.
Again, several years from now if they have published a book that brings all of this data together, I will be fine. Until then, it bugs me.
On another note, I am torn on the ideas introduced by previous posters (I don't have their names in front of me) on the timeline of the world. I'm leaning toward agreeing with the poster who said that the timeline could be compressed and not lose anything. I am doing so because in the absence of the designers/writers explaining why (technological) development was slowed/stunted, I have to default to my only source, which is the real world. And that tells me the timeline is too long. Again, easy for it to be clarified!
I still really enjoy the world but as the OP said, there are things about it that bug me.
I dislike that we have to wait for an AP to eventually take place there before we get any kind of detail on what is there. even though these are clearly prime locations for extraordinary adventures.
This. So much this.
In fact, I would take it one step further and say that I don't like the way we do get information. Inner Sea Magic talks a bit about old empires. But then Dungeons of Golarion talks about things. And Humans of Golarion. It's all spread out, very haphazard.
But it's more than just that.
The designers like to say that the current inhabitants don't know about the past. Very few know about Thassilon. But then we have had multiple APs, including the very first one, dealing with the ancient, no one knows about it *wink, wink* empire. It may be that the inhabitants don't know much about Thassilon but the players do! And sometimes it's tough to deny player knowledge.
I have been told that the designers have a plan. I'm ready to see that plan. I'm ready for a "boxed set" of Golarion that starts putting things into context. That starts explaining things. That puts all information into one place. At the moment, it's very tough for me to understand how remnants of Thassilon, which is at least ten thousand years old, are still around but remains from the past three hundred years aren't. (Unless someone can tell me what was in Varisia between the runelords fall and now.)
This also goes to gaming and to details. I really expected the dungeons book to explain how >this< dungeon by >that< group is different from >that< dungeon done by >this< group. Is it by traps? Types of traps? Dangers used? Size? materials? Tools used? Varisia has been called the frontier. But . . . but . . . but they are surrounded by areas populated with humans! How is that the frontier? Golarion is too old to have a frontier, even with the apocalypse (what's the plural) that has happened.
*deep breath*
I like Golarion, though, because it's new to me. Having played in FR for decades, I am looking for something new and Golarion excites me about it for many reasons. It can still frustrate me, though.
