I ran through character creation in person with a couple of my players over the last few days, using the online Character Builder. One of them has been playing a lot of Pathfinder. His reaction? "Man, Pathfinder could really use something this nice."
Ugh; I can't stand the "delve" format. I don't like it in the armchair, I don't like it at the table. I like seeing the whole dungeon (or whatever environment) at once and treating like a single "living" space.
On top of which, the 4E adventures I've read that were in the delve format, still didn't work if you just picked it up and started running it. Without the context provided by the intro sections, there was no way to make intelligent decisions (beyond "pull something out of the air") for any of the creatures involved or make meaningful judgements if the players decided to, say, "sneak around the monsters" or even -- Pelor, forbid! -- "parley."
It's a terrible format, and it makes for terrible adventures. >.<
Okay, here's a standard point-buy version of my "not-Glorfindel" elf paladin...
Spoiler:
RUFINDEL CR 1/2
Male Elf Paladin (Warrior of the Holy Light) 1
LG Medium Humanoid (Elf)
Init +2; Senses Low-Light Vision; Perception +4
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DEFENSE
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AC 18, touch 10, flat-footed 18. . (+5 armor, +3 shield)
hp 12 (1d10+1)
Fort +3, Ref +0, Will +3
Immune blindness, dazzled
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OFFENSE
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Spd 20 ft.
Melee Longsword +3 (1d8+2/19-20/x2)
Ranged Shortbow +1 (1d6/20/x3)
Special Attacks Smite Evil (1/day)
Spell-Like Abilities Detect Evil (At will), Light (At will)
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STATISTICS
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Str 14, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 15
Base Atk +1; CMB +3; CMD 13
Feats Elven Weapon Proficiencies, Shield Focus
Traits Caretaker, Warrior of Old
Skills Diplomacy +6, Heal +2, Perception +4
Languages Common, Elven
SQ Aura of Good (Ex), Lightbringer
Combat Gear Longsword, Shortbow, Arrows (20), Scale Mail, Shield, Heavy Steel;
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Aura of Good (Ex) The paladin has an Aura of Good with power equal to her class level.
Detect Evil (At will) (Sp) You can use Detect Evil at will (as the spell).
Immune to Blindness You are immune to blindness.
Immune to Dazzled You are immune to the dazzled condition.
Light (Lightbringer) (At will) (Sp) With Intelligence 10+, cast Light at will.
Lightbringer +1 effective level for [Light] spells and light-based abilities (including spell-like and supernatural abilities).
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Shield Focus +1 Shield AC
Smite Evil (1/day) (Su) +2 to hit, +1 to damage, +2 deflection bonus to AC when used.
Created With Hero Lab® - try it for free at http://www.wolflair.com!
There are a few different ways you could go with him ... I chose Shield Focus for his feat figuring that would likely add to his overall durability better than, say, Toughness or Lightning Reflexes. If you wanted him to hit harder rather than be more tanky, you could give him proficiency with bastard swords instead (figuring on Weapon Focus to be added later).
His 4th level stat boost should go to Cha, obviously. :) As time goes on, he's going to want Boots of Striding and Springing (as paladins don't get the movement features of a fighter) and any Belts of Physical Oomph he can get. As far as weapons, if he takes his weapon as his divine bond, he can concentrate on just piling on the +1/+2/+3 instead of adding varying effects. For armor, Champion Mithral Full Plate and a Ghost Touch shield would probably serve him nicely, plus the biggest Amulet of Natural Armor he can get ahold of.
And for those forays into the infernal realms, don't forget a ring of fire resistance!
Definitely a Silmarillion fan here, though I'm about to go even deeper down the rabbit hole with my recent purchase of Morgoth's Ring. Perhaps we should compare notes on the build. Are you also going ECB?
It's been a while since I looked; the way I remember it was he was made with the Warrior of the Holy Light archetype and the Lightbringer racial variant, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword) and generally goes sword-and-board with it. He's definitely designed as a party buffer/tank rather than a pure damage machine on his own.
I'll have to pull the character out of Hero Labs tonight and post a stat block. If I recall, he had the advantage of some pretty high stat rolls (4d6 drop lowest and kind dice) rather than point buy, which helped of course. I'll look at retooling him with a standard point buy while I'm at it.
Does WotC count as "third party"? 'cos I'm using some 3.5 and 4E material in my PF campaign at the moment.
I offered my players the option of the Warlord from Tome of Secrets, but nobody was interested.
I also use Hero Labs for just about everything and I love it to death. Math and I have a shaky peace at best, so I let the computer take care of my number crunching.
If I can be as bold as to make a suggestion: I'm fairly sure that a harcover book dealing with this sort of mechanics -- hazards, terrain effects, traps and haunts -- would sell pretty well. I know you guys will be publishing this stuff online and across the AP books, but a single tome ("Guide to Haunts & Hazards", or whatever it would be called) would be easier for reference.
Seconded! And please include a "Page 42" style on-the-fly chart. ;)
Thanks for the encouragement. I'm thinking that an Elven Paladin Warrior of the Holy Light with the Lightbringer racial ability (replacing Elven Magic) would be very fun and Tolkienesque, which, really, is much more important to me than an infinitesimal edge.
I have a character with a very similar build that I keep wanting to play, so I say go for it. Just think of Glorfindel taking on balrogs, and you'll do fine!
I've never actually had players get sick of one of my dungeons, although I have gotten sick of a couple of them myself.
As a player, I have gotten sick of a campaign theme ... the GM took us through a 3.5 adaptation of "Against the Giants" and I was sick of giants by the end. To be fair, I was also sick of my PC, who was swimming against the tide as a would be fighter/wizard/EK and just couldn't do anything very well, which probably contributed.
Awesome! Add "Buff Cards" "buff Spells" in the same format FTW. Strong contender for multiple-pack purchase.
Seconded! My group currently has a ton of hand-scribbled tent cards for all the buffs and debuffs flying around in every combat (12th level game currently). I picked up the Condition Cards this past weekend and the players love 'em, but we still need something presentable for all those Bless/Prayer/Haste spells that always go up. This idea of stackable cards that put buffs and debuffs in the same format is very cool, and I heartily endorse it!
The result seems to be a scattered customer base. That Pathfinder is even considered competition for a brand like D&D would have seemed impossible just a few short years ago, but much indicates that Pathfinder is holding its own against the "world's most popular roleplaying game."
The neat thing is, if Pathfinder overtakes D&D, Paizo doesn't have to change their marketing phrase, 'cause their material will still be compatible with the world's most popular roleplaying game. ;)
I'd like to see one that was a little more "high adventure"-ish than the relatively grim stuff Pathfinder tends to do. I love Howardian/Lovecraftian sword and sorcery, but a straightforward noble-heroes-vs.-badguys story would be a breath of fresh air!
The fighter column especially really does have that deja vu feeling, doesn't it? I keep remembering his column about the rust monster way back when, which turned out to be a "stealth preview" of 4E philosophy.
But what, if anything, can we take away from the new set of columns? "We want to get back to our roots?" Well, okay, good luck with that. "More GM arbitration, fewer hard-and-fast rules?" Good luck with that too -- especially when it comes to tournament play. "Less product over time?" Well that's already being implemented, in the form of projects being cut from the schedule. On the other hand, looking at the D&D shelf at the FLGS, I see a dizzying array of products that have come out in the past year with little real guidance as to what's what. Three core rulebooks are easily identified. Half a dozen boxes of varying sizes and shapes, not so much.
Right now at least, the impression I get is that they've been flailing. Heck, the "fortune cards" looked to me like somebody said, "Gamma World is working! Quick, add booster cards to D&D and see if that fixes it." The impression I get from the schedule cuts and the new "let's be friends again" posts by Mr. Mearls is that they may have decided to stop, re-think, and start over.
Will it work? Dunno. There's a lot for people to get over, not the least of which is the volatility of it all. Paizo created Pathfinder as much to know they'd have a rule system that stuck around as anything else. All hostility to WotC aside, if D&D becomes a moving target of rules that keep completely changing before your campaign has even finished, it's going to be hard to want to adopt 'em.
By the way, a post over on ENWorld reminded me that, in the vein of offering meaningful concessions with the olive branch, WotC has recently begun to open up their sponsored play areas at cons (DDXP, for one) to all editions of D&D, not just 4e. Not a huge deal, I know, but it's something.
Finally, something good in this thread! Every little bit helps.
I agree. Unless the cost is negligible, I'd rather not have the leather cover... I'd actually prefer it to match the other PF books as much as possible.
Still plan on preordering on day one, though.
Price is definitely the biggest factor to me, as well. Besides just plain not liking leather or faux leather as a book cover. This is a book I want to use, not show off. Stick with cover stock and b/w illos please.
What's weird is I've played in games where the GM didn't let the players see their character sheets, and that was just the way it went. The idea that the player could somehow legitimately keep information secret from the GM is just bizarre, as the GM can simply say "No, it isn't!" to anything the player might try to assert.
Secretive PC: "I have a potion of heal! It says so on my character sheet (where I just wrote it)!"
GM: "No, it turns out you don't. Perhaps you just -thought- you did."
Secretive PC: "I totally do! And I'm drinking it. I'm back at full hit points."
GM: "No, it turns out you don't. And furthermore, what you are actually drinking turns out to be a strange brew that attracts dire penguins. 1d12 of them immediately appear and eat off your head. Your character dies a painful and messy death."
My only problem with the poll is I want niether of the two option...I want a mix of them. So I do think it is a poorly designed poll...as the two seection are really absolutes.
I too just got back from a misventure with 4e (it stopped making sense to me) and got both the Core Rulebook and the Bestiary.
I've been reading about prep time and how hard it is to DM at high levels, and somehow I don't think I'll ever manage that.
I'm not done reading the book yet (it's not even in my native language, so it takes a little more time than normal), so I'm kinda lost when it comes to creature/NPC creating, but it seems the common opinion that 15lv+ is DM's hell.
I play with a group that learns the game playing it: they WON'T read the books, that I'm certain of. That'll probably slow the game down a LOT.
Also, I don't really have time to prepare that much, and it seems that the creatures of the Bestiary alone won't do it with a high level party.
Don't worry about high level yet. Start with 1st level, pick an adventure path, and go to town. By the time you get there, you'll have a better handle on things.
I'm currently running a 12th level game, and prep time now isn't significantly higher than it was at 3rd, largely because I use a lot of time-saving techniques I've picked up along the way. We'll see what 17th is like, but I suspect it'll be similar.
I lean on the electronic tools a lot, but that's because math makes my brain hurt. :P I spend a lot more time in the "coming up with neat ideas" part than in the "creating stat blocks" part.
But in the folder of "characters in search of a game" I've got...
* an elf paladin (think Glorfindel)
* an elf warlord (from Tome of Secrets)
* a halfling ranger
* a halfling "utility" wizard
* a human monk who is the vassal of another party member
In the rare occasions I get to play, I generally play fighter, fighter/rogue, or ranger types. I would sometime like to play my little halfling utility wizard character, but since my chances to play instead of GM are so rare, I don't often get to choose.
-1 to all suggestions. Anything that encourages people to just stand like a lump and hit things is just plain bad. I want MORE moving around on the map, not LESS.
If we ever stat up a 20th level commoner and put that dude in print... I'm doing my job wrong and deserve all the mockery the internet can fling at me.
As to how the SRD thing is worded, I think back to...gosh, I think it was a Dragon article by Gary Gygax back in the 1e days. He explained that the reason paladins needed high charisma (1e pallies needed a 17 CHA!) was that one of THE main tasks of a paladin was to inspire good in people and rally them toward good causes. A paladin wasn't primarily in the job of going out and killing orcs or dragons. He did those things, but only by way of providing an example to the frightened, the timid, and the powerless that a single person's good actions do matter, thereby giving them the spirit necessary to change their own lives -- and the whole world -- for the better. So I wouldn't agree that they'd abhor lack of action by the innately good so much as be galvanized by it, and to be driven by it to inspire, by word and deed, good creatures to do better for and by themselves.
Good point!
I don't know why paladins are such lightning rods for GM hate -- particularly when you then hear GMs complaining that they can't get their players to act like heroes!
A paladin player who has put forth a bona fides effort to uphold their code shouldn't be worried about having their class abilities stripped because they only got 999 of the 1000 villagers out of the burning castle; but neither should they go around lopping off the rogue's head for lightening the purse of a corrupt merchant. Compassion and mercy are virtues, too!
Assuming he used the encounter creation budgets, the XP should already be figured for him.
If he just tossed a bunch of random stuff onto a sheet of paper, there's no way to gauge XP and you might as well just handwave it all and level up when you feel like it. Although there's a good chance you'll be TPKed in the first fight, so it'll be a moot issue anyway.
My players are a weird mix: half of them love to be chewed up and spit out, and the other half like to coast to victory. Strangely enough, I find that running the game RAW and by the numbers accommodates both halves fairly well! Running mostly "average" or "challenging" encounters allows the coasters to feel confident, and then the big set-piece OMGHARD encounter (usually as a "boss fight") allows the chewies to get the snot beat out of them, while still usually snatching a victory. (One player doesn't feel like a fight is worth the effort if he doesn't fall below 0 hp at least once!)
And then of course, the occasional cheese encounter (APL-2) allows them all to feel very badass, especially when it's against something that used to terrify them. ("Manticores? Who's afraid of manticores?")
So, I do occasionally throw some crazy stuff at them. Not to "screw them over" by any means, but instead to give them a very tough encounter that they can feel proud of having beaten. What fighter worth his salt wouldn't want to be able to brag that he went toe-to-toe against a half-dragon fire giant (surrounded by a small army of trolls and drow) and lived?
Oh, and re: marking, we've been playing around with a house rule that allows someone with ranks in Intimidate to challenge a single target as a move action; the target makes a Will save with a DC of the challenger's Intimidate check. If the save succeeds, the target acts normally; if the target fails, they react to the challenger as their next action (with "react" being defined generally as "attack" or "flee").
Thing is, "marking" evolved in MMOs as a way of creating artificial intelligence for the monsters. Monsters in tabletop games already have intelligence, i.e. the GM, so it's something that really should be mostly left in the realm of roleplaying, at least in my opinion. That's why the challenge costs an action, and at most will make the foe change a single action.
Pathfinder already has the basics for a Skill Challenge system in the Chase rules. Just replace physical skills with any appropriate one or two. Used in combination with page 42 for Pathfinder by the_gneech, you should have no trouble making a robust and complex skill "encounter". If you wish even use elements of Complex Skill Check
Hey, thanks for the shout-out! :) re: my "Page 42" stuff, there's a slightly updated version on my blog:
re: Minions, I did try a few variations (which you can read about here if interested: http://the-gneech.livejournal.com/1751709.html ), but in the end I ended up using low-CR monsters and giving them cheesy equipment -- Ogre with a +3 greatclub, baby! -- so that they’d actually have a chance to hit the AC 30+ monster PCs I've got. But then when the ogre goes down, what actually "drops" is the regular gear you'd expect to see on an ogre.
I'm looking for a couple different creatures to accompany a "dungeon", who's "final boss" is a Medusa (probably w/class levels or advanced template, ~CR 8 or 9). I was looking for grimlocks, but apparently they're not in PRPG. I've decided on various Wights, but want a little more variety. Any help is appreciated..
Anything with blindsight is a good candidate. But if you want grimlocks, why not just take some hobgoblins, give 'em blindsight, and call it "close enough"?