|Jim Groves Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 4|
Well, allowing people to make Assist checks is a valid part of the game, you probably don't want to prohibit that altogether. You also don't want the other players to think that they invested skill points in Survival for nothing.
I see two valid ways to approach this:
1.) Separate people make their own individual checks with bonuses from other players. This allows multiple people to try, and the chances of at least one player to succeed, at least marginally, is much greater.
2.) You allow people to make Assist checks but you decide how many characters can reasonably any one character making a Survival check. The rule book doesn't provide a guideline for this, so its really up to the GM's sense of verisimilitude. I suggest that two characters can make assist checks to help a third character make the actual Survival check. But your sense of realism should dictate the actual number. I would strive for a fair challenge but not a punitive one.
What you want to avoid is having five other players and the NPC all making assist checks (because Survival doesn't require you to be trained) and adding a potential +12 bonus to one players roll, who then hypothetically rolls a 40 and can feed a second party of players! That won't make it seem like Irrisen is particularly harsh, any more than Logrivich going down in one round of combat.
Also, if everybody is hunting, no one is building or defending the camp. It takes time to make a camp and it takes time to hunt. But I wouldn't actually make this as complex or difficult as I'm describing, these are just points to consider if the players try to "game the system".
Otherwise, if they make straight forward check and roll really well—good for them! Don't take that victory away from them.
You should also feel free to turn the environment to his advantage. Cover the top of the clock tower with ice and make it snowing outside, so he can use his racial abilities better.
Absolutely! He's not going to fight fair, especially in melee. His icewalking ability allows him to stand out on that furthest icy ledge with no chance of slipping or falling, while the PCs have difficult terrain conditions as described in the adventure. If the PCs want a flank that bad, let them come with short distance of a bull rush off the side of a fifty foot tall tower while standing on ice.
Follow-up on the previous post, if you increase the entire Logrivich encounter from CR 6 to CR 7, you can also justify some extra treasure.. Probably a potion of energy resistance. I wouldn't do this for just any encounter, but definitely this dragon encounter. He's only Large so he can manipulate objects with his claws. Have him swallow the whole potion, vial and all—crunch it in his teeth. He'll pay for it later. That is an easy way to give him some fire protection and make that a good fight.
Don't use that schtick too often though!
Hey guys. I have some questions as my players will hopefully start this book soon
Cool. The Developer Rob McCreary may have his own thoughts on the matter.
Gremlins : Do they know if their curse is successful? And will they try again if not?
Yes, the gremlins know if the curse is successful or not. This is fully supported in the Core Rules. If you need a rule citation to back you up, check pages 216 and 217 of the Core Rule Book under the section: Succeeding on a Saving Throw. In the case of any spell without an obvious physical effect, the caster knows whether the target makes their Save or not, and the target feels a "hostile tingling sensation". This particularly applies since gremlin's tinker ability is by definition identical to bestow curse.
I wouldn't have them try that exact trick again, but I wouldn't have them go away either. I would have them come back a couple night later with some new dastardly trick. On the other hand, the players are not likely to be able to discover what they were trying to do in the first place.. so maybe repetition would be fine.
No, actually you have oversimplified the DC on that Survival check. The DC is dependent on the number of people you're trying to feed. At DC 10 you can obtain food for one person, and another person for every +2 the roll succeeds by. Let me break down for you:DC 10 = feed 1 person
DC 12 = feed 2 people
DC 14 = feed 3 people
DC 16 = feed 4 people
DC 18 = Feed 5 people
DC 20 = feed 6 people
DC 22 = feed 7 people
DC 24 = feed 8 people. Which is where you're at, right?
Now, I don't believe myself, Neil, or Rob spelled out any extra difficulty in obtaining food, but by definition food is scarce is in Irrisen. You would not be unreasonable in applying a modest circumstance penalty to food gathering Survival checks. I wouldn't be punitive about it, but I wouldn't hesitate to add a —2 modifier to maintain the challenge, if you actually need it!
You can also consider how many characters can actually Assist. After a certain point too many hunters can scare away game.
Definitely give Logrivich some help. We don't mean to under challenge your PCs, but we do have to design towards a consistant and regular baseline, and that is four PCs.
That being said, five PCs does not automatically tip the CRs up +1, but six players definitely DOES warrant increasing the CR by +1. I wouldn't just do that for Logrivich, I would do that across the board.
But let's stick to Logrivich for this post!
The easiest solution is to bump him up to juvenile white dragon, but perhaps a better recourse is to address the economy of action situation you have happening with six players.
May I make a suggestion? Add a clockwork servant from Bestiary 2 and apply the Advanced Simple template to make it tougher—a nice CR 3. Together with the young Logrivich it should make a fair challenge and provide two different combatants, once of whom is not vulnerable to fire. CR 6 + CR 3 = CR 7. From a story perspective the clockwork servant is "redesigning and repairing" the clock to account for and accommodate Logrivich's vandalism. That way the clock still keeps the time and the dragon keeps his unique lair above the city. You can also add a nice little touch by granting the clockwork servant a bonus special ability to move through the clockwork mechanism as if they were normal squares. The servant doesn't do much damage, but it might get some players tangled up in those nets so Logrivich can breath cold on them. Being in a net also makes casting spells very difficult.
Hope this helps!
Well, I would stop with the provable crime.
Honestly, your friend needs some perspective. The online gaming was important to him, but its not important the grand scheme of his whole life. People go to jail for crawling through windows and raiding the fridge.
Change the password, maybe cloak the SSID. Consider the stolen chocolate milk as a fair trade, and write it off. Quit. Call it even. Walk away.
Yeah, it would suck to go all the way to Triaxis just to fight goblins.
I know Adam Daigle and Rob McCreary have worked hard (with the authors) to try to utilize the new AP monsters in the actual adventures, even if it means that they appear in a later chapter.
The fact that Distant Worlds author James Sutter and Adam himself contributed monsters is a good sign we'll have some Triaxis coolness. (Not to dismiss Amanda in anyway)
Contrary to what the forums say, in my group there's always a scramble to play a fighter or to play a rogue. They are perceived to action oriented, fun characters, whose contributions are undeniable. INCLUDING THE MONK.
After that are the arcanists...
And the bottom of the heap is the cleric.
I'm quite serious. The cleric is seen as the necessary evil "take one for the team" character despite everything done to give them more options. When I finally decided to take a break and actually play, I played a cleric to show how I wrong I felt they are.
Really, I think its the player's mindset most of the time.
EDIT: I know where it stems from in my group. They think if they fail to hit something the first time they try, they built a crappy character. My group likes fighters because with a full BAB and a good strength bonus, they hit the AC of their opponents more often.
They get real sulky when they miss and often it is a just a string of bad dice rolls. Then I have to hit the breaks on their inevitable urge to minmax. The emotion that comes through when they, as an individual player, don't contribute as much because of bad dice rolls is loud and clear.
I often counsel, "Mathematically you will miss sometimes and occasionally fail a saving throw. That does not mean you made a bad character."
Lord Snow wrote:
It remains to be seen if buying this AP would be a mythtake, but I already decided I'm going to. Hope it's the right decision!
It has a very exciting overall plot, and like The Shackled Hut, many of my encounters are little stories unto themselves (to be further enhanced by James Jacobs!).
I think you'll love it, and as James said, the whole community will be sorting these new rules out together (whether to use them or not to use them), so there's going to be plenty of support.
ALso, I am ever so grateful for your positive outlook on this. You have concerns, but you're giving it a chance. That means a lot, not just to me but everyone involved.
On a similar note: Did I imagine someone saying the release schedule for APs would try to follow the pattern of one traditional style AP followed by an experimental AP each year?
That is the existing pattern. Summer APs are generally traditional and winter ones are generally experimental.
However the developer who told me that ALSO said they're free to break that tradition at any time, and may even do so soon.
(Which makes sense that they change that around at some point, otherwise that would mean Rob would be doing all the experimentals and James did all the traditionals, which is hardly fair and balanced.)
Draco Bahamut wrote:
Osirion is really quite mysterious. Its ancient history shows their culture took quite a dramatic leap in technology and sophistication emerging to be a great empire rather quickly after the Age of Anguish.
It is unclear what the cause is, but the text strongly suggests an outside force intervened.
Then in 4609 Prince Khemet I arrives with great power to drive the Keleshites out.
There is great fun in speculating who or what these mysterious powers are.
quiet riot wrote:
I love how everyone just got real quiet to let OP argue with the creative director "mano a mano".
There was no one more qualified to have that discussion with the OP.
If fans dogpile on someone, we stand little chance of changing their perspective. The Creator Director represents someone in authority who can speak with authority, and not just rile up the OP.
Emotions don't help in changing someone's opinion. The OP likes much of what Paizo produces, and they're a customer. Why should we fans drive them any further away?
Sometimes it is best to allow a staff person to handle it, if you really want to support the company.
I am available for yelling!
since he pointed out that this topic has relevance to Wrath.
To be fair, a lot of this is off topic. I was trying to get it back on topic.
Ultimately, most people aren't ready for the timeline to be advanced, and that is the deciding factor. I don't when they'll ever be ready, but when they are, then that will be the time.
Edit: And this was said playfully. If you're ready to stop, please don't let me egg you on. It might be time to just disagree. :)
With all other PCs searching the other rooms trying to locate Granny Nan, the old crone comes across the Gunslinger's body and ends him with a coup de grace from her club.
I was contemplating adding some dramatic flair by having Granny drag him into the kitchen and toss him into the Gobbler but she has 4 STR.
Oh, missed opportunity! I would have bought YOU a drink at PaizoCon!
Though I'm still assuming the changes will be less drastic if the PCs win: Change in rulers in Irrisen, maybe up to removal of Baba Yaga's influence vs. Elvanna conquers a frozen world.
Hence my caveat, but Wrath of the Righteous is there staring you in the face.
Most games and other APs can go on unhindered if the PCs win. Not if they lose.
Yes, but that is entirely my point. We're seeing something new.
although at this point I wonder what if anything this has to do with Wrath of the Righteous....
I'm sure this is a rhetorical question, but its because Wrath of the Righteous presents a situation where the outcome has extremely meaningful consequences with long range implications.
While it is a sidetrack to get the broader Pros and Cons of evolving a campaign in a general context, it nevertheless is extremely relevant.
I'd like to point something out I think is quite significant.
This is a generalization, but most of the early Adventure Paths present a crisis. If the crisis is averted, the PCs are awesome heroes and have accomplished something incredibly major—but they return the campaign setting to the status quo.
Here are some vague examples from many APs. Not really spoilers, but I want to minimize TL/dr
Runelords—you preserve the status quo by defeating the baddie
Crimson Throne—Life can go back to normal thanks to the PCs!
Second Darkness—The Second Age of Darkness is averted
Legacy of Fire—thanks to the PCs, its business as usual in Katapesh
Serpent's Skull—Ydersius does not return to start World War 5, life goes on.
Now this pattern does gets broken up:
Skull and Shackles-yeah, but the implications aren't as far reaching, its a more personal story to the PCs.
Just bear in mind, it is a generalization. Don't nit pick.
When you get to Reign of Winter and Wrath of the Righteous, something really interesting happens.
A crisis is presented and no matter what happens, there is a huge possible impact on the setting. Especially in Wrath of the Righteous. With Wrath, there is big change if the PCs fail, and there is big change if the PCs succeed. Either way it appears nothing stays the same.
(I am not privy to the end of Reign of Winter except in the most broadest and general sense. However, I have faith in Rob McCreary that if the PCs do succeed they're going to have the ability to do a little more than return Irrisen to exactly the way it was before. I think it is a parallel example to Wrath, but I am making less assumptions about it).
That is not the type of evolution that magnuskn wants, but I think it is a brave departure from past precedent.
That is the sort of evolution in storytelling I think we should hope for, and I'm happy that our Developers are bringing us.
Turin the Mad wrote:
I certainly hope so. There haven't been nearly enough fatalities reported so far. ;)
I'm a bit of a softie so I don't expect a high body count, but I have been following the threads waiting for some of the posting GMs to get to Chapter Two. ;)
Neil Spicer wrote:
A long time coming, but hopefully worth the wait for everyone. Nice job, Jim! :-)
Thank you! I wouldn't want to say anything that undermined the confidence of a customer, but I did have to fall back in love with it. But, in that respect it matured over time.
To give folks some more insight into the product:
Throughout my freelancing career, I've been challenged by something I never expected. That is being called upon to write wilderness journeys and outdoor exploration. I envisioned crypts and palaces, but you go where your Developer sends you! So, starting with The Frostfur Captives, The Shackled Hut, and Demon's Heresy I have grappled with the outdoors quite a bit. They're tricky to make interesting, and sometimes they lack the luxury of good map support. This isn't from author or developer malfeasance, but simply because there is a finite amount of maps you can provide in a print product. Jason was really quite generous with the map allowance on this one, and I hope it pays off. We're definitely NOT leaving anybody in the lurch here.
So knowing the challenges that wilderness encounters present to a harried GM, I've really done my best to lift that burden off their shoulders. Furthermore, I think if the caravans are emphasized strongly and early on, the players will naturally insert them into their mindset in the later chapters until such time that they story moves beyond them altogether. In other words, my feeling is that the caravan need to be a big deal as soon as it is introduced, not in later chapters.
If folks have any questions, please fire away!
I promise that folks will NOT feel like caravans were just tacked on as a means to convey the players from Point A to Point B. You won't be just hand waving 540 miles, because there's nothing to do or see. :)
Also, between the encounters and Pedro's maps, there is tons of utility in this package. Every noteworthy encounter has a beautiful map, and those maps can be re-used in other games and campaigns with ease.
Yes, I have spoken extensively with Ben / Terraleon about this. Dale, if this system is solid as you say, I'd love to see you walk through it and clarify it.
Break it down. Clean up the presentation. Make it user friendly.
And I would pay money for that. Now, you have to evaluate the return of investment on your time I realize. I'm just one guy. Yet I think that would be a great gateway product with a series of new Words.
Or if you think you can present the base concepts in a clear fashion, and pair it with Undead Words as a single product, as the first of a series—that would be cool too. Tutorial and new toys.
If you're serious about it, Dale, I'd love to share some of the comments Ben shared with me about the system so that you could address them specifically. But I don't want to do that without Ben's blessing. It was the work product of his analysis. But it was enough to make cringe and not fool with WoP at all.
I think that is the hurdle you want to overcome, and if you can, you may have found a cool niche.
I hope that to a large extent that the entities depicted in this book reflect 'good' from the humanoid or mortal perspective.
AS a B5 fan, I appreciate the comments that have been shared about the Vorlons, and I agree with them. At the same time I hope this book doesn't have any "Vorlons" in them with their distant and alien ethics. Or rather, such notions of character design are reserved for inevitables or proteans.
One thing I have really enjoyed about Golarion's cosmology is that alignment really seems to start with mortal creatures and radiates out to the Outer Planes.
This is opposed to the original D&D cosmological model (as I understood it) where the Outer Planes were the source of alignment—which focused inwards toward the mortal plane. Perhaps I misunderstood the way the cosmology worked, so pardon me if that was inaccurate.
To me it is a question of where does good and evil begin? Some alien abstract dimension? Or in the hearts and souls of mortal folk?
My impression that as where Golarion is concerned, such things begin with mortals.. and those mortals (unintentionally) create those abstract alien places like the Abyss, Hell, Heaven, and Elysium.
So to get back on topic, I would want my Good Outsiders to be derived from the concept of what is good from a mortal perspective.
A little more rambling behind the spoiler tag, but not really a spoiler (just did it for length)
To me, certain outsiders seem abstract while others do not. Qlippoth, Proteans, and Inevitables seem somewhat abstract, as do the Eldest from the First World. They seem to fall into certain categories of Destruction, Chaos, Law, and raw Creation. This may not be absolutely accurate, but I'm just having fun on the message board.
Demons are what happens when mortal souls are exposed to the Abyss, where once only Qlippoth existed. This is not speculation, this is cannon taken from Lords of Chaos by James Jacobs. I know, I did some research for Wrath of the Righteous and read the book again recently. Ergo, first there were mortals, and then there were demons. The Qlippoth however predate both.
So, I draw a conclusion from that the Qlippoth are abstract from mortal life, but demons are inter-related to it.
I expect or hope to see a similar relationship between mortals and good outsiders.
Note, be kind. This is just a guy sharing his love of the game on the message board.
There's a perfectly functional one on the srd it's a 3PP version.
That's great for players, but not for PFS players, and not for freelancers who work for Paizo.
Using a 3PP creature or template is one thing, and using a 3PP class (or rule subset) is something altogether different.
Before someone corrects me, I know full well it has happened at least once. (The original 3.5 Runelords 1 and 5 if I recall correctly) And it was the Creative Director's decision to do it.
I'd like a full functional Paizo version that I can design with, like a witch, alchemist, or any of the Core classes.. Not something I would need special permission to use and likely be declined anyway.
Robert Brookes wrote:
And not to disagree with Robert, rather to add to his point, AC is not even an analog to "toughness". What is also being "absorbed" is the great creatures attack actions.
Occupying a powerful opponent while not getting hit is a valid strategy.
James makes a compelling case. There are things you can do with the fighter, the rogue, and some multi-classing. That being said, I'd like to see a good swashbuckler character from Level 1, not after 5 levels of multi-classes, and extra special abilities that are nice, but not at all part of the character concept (like wearing heavy armor and disabling traps).
Pirates are popular and so are naval adventures, and if the Muskateers are any proof, you don't need to be a pirate to be a swashbuckler
And I'd love Paizo to do this, because I love 3PP, but I'd like to see for my professional design work for Paizo, and for it to be usable in PFS. AND it would be fun to play!
Jeff Erwin wrote:
Start an advocacy thread, Jeff. I created one for a possible Advanced Monsters Guide, and its taking off. The Suggestion Section is the place to put it. I'll post my support, and we'll see if the community can carry it far enough that James can make a compelling case.
Haladir gets a singular point that I was struggling with.
You're going to have a vocal minority who don't want psionics period. And they will howl and pidgeon bomb every thread they see, once it is taken seriously by Paizo. Just like Mythic, and god bless Brandon Hodge- just like Rasputin!
It won't help if fans of psionics have all this internal division. I'd like to see the topic introduced in actual adventures, rather than vieled obscure references in the occasional campaign setting books.
Look at the status quo: right now psychic abilities play no role in Paizo adventures and you have to manually add DSP in them in on every level.
Even if you didn't like how Paizo chose to implement psychic powers, at least you would be gaining ground. The concept would be in the adventures. You might not like their system, and you might still be adapting DSP material, but you wouldnt be fighting the background and the setting. Yet if we get too divisive over the implementation, there is no incentive for Paizo to touch the subject with a ten foot pole.
If psionics fans really want to see the topic utilized in SOME fashion, they may need to let Paizo do it the way they feel comfortable doing it, and unite against those who feel "Paizo's energies need to be spent elsewhere, which coincides with what I want".
Not a question, but I wanted to make sure you knew about this!
Here's another link at BoardGameGeek.com: Here
Brief Description wrote:
Izar Talon wrote:
That is not a very good name, I agree. However that is easily fixed. I wouldn't consider that a major concern.
Izar Talon wrote:
Well, it is simple, straight-forward, and consistent with the rest of the ruleset. It might be easier to design adventures with it.
Instead of thinking of it strictly in terms of slots, like a wizard, think it in terms of "uses per day", like a sorcerer. Powers could have tiers, so you could scale them appropriately by level. You could forfeit a higher level power use in order to reuse a lower level power.
Or perhaps a barbarian's rage powers could be another such analog.
Izar Talon wrote:
And as an aside, I really can't for the life of me understand how James Jacobs and others can be such huge fans of Lovecraft and the Great Old Ones and yet not champion psionics, or at least see a reason for it's inclusion. Psychic sensitives and their reaction to the Great Old Ones is a rather integral part of The Call of Cthulhu story, when the brief temporary rising of Cthulhu from his tomb in R'lyeh caused psychics and sensitives all across the world to go mad from the psychic backlash. The flavor and concepts of psionics and Lovecraft (and even more especially later Cthulhu Mythos writers) are rather heavily linked and go together seamlessly. I really cannot understand how someone could like one but not the other.
I can't speak for the man, but as I understand it from reading some very recent posts of his—he does indeed champion the inclusion of psychic powers and/or abilities.
But he doesn't decide what topics the Design Team tackles.
And of course, you might not agree with how he would implement the subject material.