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Kobold

Jiggy's page

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32. RPG Superstar 6 Season Marathon Voter, 7 Season Dedicated Voter, 8 Season Dedicated Voter. FullStarFullStar Pathfinder Society GM. 20,343 posts (24,400 including aliases). 17 reviews. 4 lists. 1 wishlist. 13 Pathfinder Society characters. 36 aliases.


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Snowlilly wrote:
I got pissed and built a fighter that managed to overcome every obstacle thrown, in or out of combat. .... The fighter was broken in the sense that he was significantly better at everything he did than anyone else in the group, and not by a small margin.

I'm not sure this actually answers the question of how you broke the game with a fighter. It mostly just re-states that you did, without really giving any new information.

For example, you say you "overcame every obstacle", but what does that mean? What sorts of obstacles? After all, there's a big difference between picking a lock and then fighting the ogre behind the door, and needing to track and chase an invisible glabrezu across the planes.

Similarly, can you elaborate on "he was significantly better at everything he did than anyone else in the group"? Which things are "everything he did"? After all, most folks agree that fighters are good at what they do; the usual complaint is that it's the only thing they can do. So what things were you excelling at as a fighter, and how would those tasks compare with the things you couldn't do at all? Also, can you give us a ballpark of how much of the gap between your and your teammates' capabilities in those areas was due to your excellence as opposed to their low optimization level? After all, there are some tables where I could grab a fighter out of the NPC Codex and be outshining the party, and it wouldn't be because of how strong the fighter class is. Knowing that you were stronger than your teammates at X task is purely relative, and therefore doesn't actually tell us anything.

Please, give us some real information. Answering "How did you break the game as a fighter?" with "By being the best at everything!" isn't really an answer at all. If I had posted that I broke the game with an Expert or Adept and you asked me how, and I replied with a story just like the one you posted, what would you think of that reply? Would it satisfy you at all? Would you even feel like it was really an answer to your question?

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Snowlilly wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Hopefully, with a fuller understanding of the issue being discussed, you can be more precise and enlightening in your own posts. Hope that helps! :)
I understand the issue, I just choose to view it from a different perspective. Simply agreeing with popular opinion does not an interesting conversation make.

I'm not asking you to agree with any particular opinion (popular or otherwise). I'm inviting you to do your disagreeing from a more well-informed position than you currently inhabit.

For example, in this post of yours, you assert that the game can be broken by any class, disagreeing with the notion that a caster is needed. That's fine; go ahead and voice that disagreement.

However, in that same post, you cite as one of your premises the idea that the complaints about casters are based on "schrodinger's wizard"; this demonstrates that you haven't really understood your fellow posters' positions. (I discussed this topic in a bit more detail in my post I linked that tries to clarify communications.) Other examples of misunderstanding your peers are present in that post as well.

That's where I'm trying to help you; not to make you stop disagreeing, but to help you start disagreeing in a better-informed manner. :)

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Snowlilly wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
GM Rednal wrote:
Out of curiosity, how did you manage to break the game? Most fighters only become very, very good at killing things... which, frankly, is kind of the goal of most encounters. XD It might make other people feel irrelevant if you can always kill everything before they even act, but I wouldn't say it's breaking the game.

I'd guess some sort of crazy reach build. Maybe mixed with a maneuver or two.

It could seem sorta game-breaking to a low optimized group.

People lack imagination.

You don't break the game with just DPR.

Hi, Snowlilly. I think you might be having a communication issue with some of the other folks here, perhaps partially based on a misunderstanding of what exactly other folks are meaning with some of their descriptions/complaints regarding class comparisons. For what it's worth, I once wrote something to try to smooth discussions on a related topic by clarifying some often misunderstood ideas, and I think you might find it helpful. LINK

Also, if you'd like some relevant designer commentary on a related topic, I recently had a dialogue (completely free of flame-wars!) with designer Mark Seifter, which starts HERE and continues for a few posts of back-and-forth (though of course it's mixed in with posts on other topics, so you'll have to do some sifting).

Hopefully, with a fuller understanding of the issue being discussed, you can be more precise and enlightening in your own posts. Hope that helps! :)

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I JUST SNIPED THE 5,000TH POST OF YOUR THREAD. HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THAT?

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Mark Seifter wrote:
As to characterizing the discussions of the disparity, I would say it would be oversimplifying them (they're a complex phenomenon, and indeed I fear I myself was certainly oversimplifying them despite the 14 separate points, which is one reason to include so many points rather than pare down to a summary) to claim that they were dominated by people who had removed the disparity from gameplay and were lamenting the effort; in fact, I wouldn't call those the majority of messageboard posts on the topic

I was a bit sloppy and inaccurate earlier; it's not just GMs who have already corrected the disparity who make up the majority of that side of the chatter, but also those who would like to correct it but can't because they're running PFS, and those who would like to correct it but they're a player and the GM can't/won't correct it (often due to not believing there's anything to fix in the first place), and so forth. The common thread among the bulk of the C/MD chatter I've personally seen is "frustration in spite of knowing what has to be done", though the nature of the frustration can vary between "I shouldn't have to do that much work" and "I'm not in a position to implement the solutions" and any number of other things. That's the main thrust of the bulk of what I've seen.

Quote:
(in my experience, many messageboard posts actually come from the direction on axis #4/#5 of "cannot or will not ban or adjust from as-written" which necessarily prevents them from being in the state you describe).

Yep, typically (in my experience) it tends to be "cannot" more often than "will not", but yes.

Quote:
For instance, some of the more famous posts on the topic, such as insta-win infinite-loop high-level caster builds that pre-suppose #4/#5 "cannot or will not ban or adjust from as-written".

My experience with the chatter on items like these is a bit different. I find that the famously-broken high-level abuses are hardly ever cited as part of the complaints of C/MD (and when they are, it's usually in the form of a point-making hyperbole, not a central pillar of their complaints). Ironically, the majority of the time that I see someone citing "snow-cone wish machines" and other famous game-breakers, the speaker is one who denies C/MD, and is using the citation as a means of (not necessarily maliciously) dismissing the "opponent" instead of grappling with the idea (frex, "This is the level of absurdity you have to allow in order for there to be a disparity, so obviously there's not really a problem").

In fact, the gap between how often each side cites those extreme cases has consistently been so large that it prompted items #2 and #3 in my attempt to smooth the discussions.

The reason the high-level game-breakers are so famous is not because they're a central element of the issue, but because they're big, flashy, easily recognized as problematic*, highly memorable, and constantly repeated by the uninformed.

*By contrast, consider the humble endure elements. At minimal cost and with no ambiguity or jumping through hoops, the caster can far exceed the ability of any martial to endure extreme climates, even to the point that a hypothetical future printing of a "Tough Guy" ability for a +5 to saves against climate/temperature effects would still be kind of lame in comparison. I find it's things like this which make up the bulk of C/MD complaints, yet those who don't already believe there's any disparity have a hard time seeing the issue. Issues that aren't seen as issues tend not to get famous, while the obvious things like "infinite wishes" will stick in the readers' minds.

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Mark Seifter wrote:
A disparity in spotlight or agency is by it's nature experiential

I think this might be where we have different perceptions of what the most common complaints about the caster-martial disparity (C/MD) tend to be.

There are actually two disparities: the systemic C/MD (what's built into the Pathfinder system, and doesn't vary from person to person) and the gameplay C/MD (what comes out at the table, which is of course experiential and group-dependent).

Your posts actually reference both, but they're framed differently. Your main focus is on the gameplay C/MD, which you refer to simply as "the disparity". With your focus there, the systemic C/MD is referred to only by description (rather than title) as you discuss "elements which can lead to a [gameplay] disparity". This is, of course, an accurate description of the relationship between the systemic disparity and the gameplay disparity. However, I think it misses the point of the chatter.

If the C/MD chatter were mostly from people who keep running into it at the table without knowing what to do about it, then your longer post gives lots of great ideas for solutions to the gameplay C/MD (largely in the form of subverting or trumping the systemic C/MD). The "angle" of your post seems to suggest a perception of folks complaining that they can't seem to shake the C/MD issues at their table.

My perception, however, is that the folks doing the most complaining have long since stopped experiencing gameplay C/MD, because they already know how to do the things you suggested (martial-biased adjudications, abuse prevention, bannings, and so forth). The complaint, then, is not "I'm still running into C/MD at the table", but rather "Look at all the stuff I had to do in order to stop running into C/MD at the table".

Basically, it's a past-tense complaint, in which the gameplay C/MD (what you kept calling "the disparity" earlier) has already been solved, and the speaker is upset about having had to work so hard to solve it.

For example: suppose a GM suddenly needs a hitherto unplanned encounter against classed humanoids at a given CR. He purchased the NPC Codex (or some similar product) with the express intent of being able to grab some ready-to-go statblocks for just such a situation. Theoretically, he could grab a handful of NPCs of level X and be reasonably sure that the challenge level would be at least in the same ballpark regardless of what assortment of classes the NPCs had. However, because the systemic C/MD exists, the potential difficulty of the encounter has a very wide range, and scales almost exclusively with the number of spellcasters among the NPCs. Now, can this issue be surmounted in order to prevent a gameplay C/MD? Of course; the GM can simply spend more time being choosy about which NPCs to grab and analyze carefully how their available magic will affect the party, tailoring the encounter much more closely to the PCs. The common complaint (or so I perceive) is not from GMs not knowing how to do that, it's from GMs who are upset that they needed to do so.

I think your long post pretty accurately describes what can come up at the table in relation to the C/MD, as well as what to do about it. However, I think it misses the main point or core complaint regarding the topic of the C/MD: the fact that the system has such a deep-rooted C/MD that the prevention of issues at the table requires such thorough and time-consuming corrective measures.

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thejeff wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
thejeff wrote:
HeHateMe wrote:
Big Avatar the Last Airbender fan here, and I know the creators are American, but wasn't the animation done by a Korean studio? Still not anime obviously, but I didn't think it was an entirely American show.
That's already been dismissed as "why the animation looks like it was drawn in an Asian style", but having no influence on people thinking it was like anime.
What was actually said on the topic wrote:
...that has no influence on the content...
I'm going to move forward with the assumption that the discrepancy here is an honest mistake of some kind, rather than the deliberate misrepresentation that it very much looks like. With that in mind, I would recommend urgency in identifying and dealing with whatever might be blocking you from noticing when someone else's opinion/statement is different from what you assumed it was going to be, lest folks start assuming malice/dishonesty rather than innocent error.
You did in fact say it has no influence on the content, but the entire discussion started with someone dismissing Avatar on the grounds they thought it was anime. Perhaps that bit of the discussion was completely unrelated?

The post of mine that you're quoting wasn't in any way a commentary on or continuation of the anime subject as a whole; it was just addressing a single instance of gross misrepresentation. One poster made one post that directly referenced one other post, but did so inaccurately in such a way as to make it easier to flippantly dismiss.

That one interaction is all my above post was addressing, not any of the other stuff about whether someone might assume Avatar is anime.

Yes, there's been quite a bit of misunderstanding. I did at one point leave out the art style in my non-exhaustive examples of the kinds of superficial details that lead some people to make wrong assumptions about what kind of action/storytelling tropes a work will contain, which seems to have confused some folks greatly. However, every time the art style itself has been discussed, I have very explicitly acknowledged its resemblance to traditional anime drawing styles. But like I said, I'm going forward with the assumption that he honestly mistook "that doesn't affect the content" for "that won't make people think it's anime". I mean, it's a pretty nonsensical error, but you never know when someone's running on 3 hours of sleep, or has had the same conversation so many times that they think they know what everyone else is going to say and fails to notice when the 143rd conversation contains something different. Giving him the benefit of the doubt here.

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Mark Seifter wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:

What do you think about the caster-martial disparity in Pathfinder?

Do you think it's real? Is it a problem? A case of misunderstanding/miscommunication?

** spoiler omitted **...

Sounds like maybe the short answer would have been "The disparity exists within the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, but group dynamics and how you manipulate/alter the system can minimize or maximize the disparity."

But I bet that would've been a lot less fun for you to write. ;)

Also, nitpick: Some of the things you described as reducing the disparity or making the group less likely to encounter the disparity, would be more accurately framed as "encountering the disparity but being okay with it". The "teamwork" topic is a prime example: your martials can be played by the most helpful-minded and team-spirited players in the world and they still can't change the water level. The fact that solving the problem meant asking "Which caster?" instead of "Which character?" proves the disparity is there; it's just that the players might all be okay with it.

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I'm currently 15th level. I've wandered the same areas downtown on my lunch break time after time. Today, I encountered my very first Growlithe.

*sigh*

I guess there are some Pokémon that I'll just have to give up on ever being able to actually use, since they appear so infrequently that I couldn't possibly power them up even once per level.

I'm also totally jealous of my wife's CP 1100+ Gyarados. :(

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thejeff wrote:
HeHateMe wrote:
Big Avatar the Last Airbender fan here, and I know the creators are American, but wasn't the animation done by a Korean studio? Still not anime obviously, but I didn't think it was an entirely American show.
That's already been dismissed as "why the animation looks like it was drawn in an Asian style", but having no influence on people thinking it was like anime.
What was actually said on the topic wrote:
...that has no influence on the content...

I'm going to move forward with the assumption that the discrepancy here is an honest mistake of some kind, rather than the deliberate misrepresentation that it very much looks like. With that in mind, I would recommend urgency in identifying and dealing with whatever might be blocking you from noticing when someone else's opinion/statement is different from what you assumed it was going to be, lest folks start assuming malice/dishonesty rather than innocent error.

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Lemmy wrote:
I think a better comparison would be someone who loves 007 movies but preemptively hates another secret agent movie just because the protagonist on the cover is Japanese.

That... might or might not fit what I'm talking about, depending on whether the reason for the dislike ends at "protagonist is Japanese" or also includes "and therefore it's going to be like these other movies I don't like".

The latter is what I'm talking about. Not so much them disliking something for superficially looking different from what they like, but rather disliking something for superficially looking similar to what they already dislike.

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Drahcirius wrote:
Suppose a wizard casts Fireball... but how would the DM or the player describe the incident realistically?

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Gisher wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Krensky wrote:
Is that supposed to be some sort of dig against scrapple, or one against my typing ability?

Not everything has to be a dig against something/someone.

I made a sloppy reading error, and the resulting imagination of a shrapnel sandwich was (I thought) funny enough to share.

I understood your intent, and I thought it was a funny mental image.

"I'm gonna need better toothpicks!"

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Nicos wrote:
I just would not call racist somebody for refusing to see a new anime based on their previous dislikement of other animes.

I'm not talking about someone who refuses to watch a new anime because they disliked a previous anime.

I'm talking about someone who refuses to watch something that is not an anime because the fact that it features Asians is enough to convince them that it is an anime.

For a different example, consider John Wayne cowboy movies. There were a lot of them, and many of them were very, very alike. Now let's suppose someone's seen a few typical John Wayne movies and dislikes them.

What you're talking about is if we offer them another cowboy movie and they decline because they don't like cowboy movies.

What I'm talking about is if we offer them a James Bond spy movie, but the front of the box shows a picture of James Bond holding a revolver, and the person declines because they don't like cowboy movies.

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Charon's Little Helper wrote:
thejeff wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
I believe what Jiggy meant was 'I won't watch Avatar because it's Japanese' is wrong-headed.

If so, that's even weirder.

Actually liking Avatar because it's not Japanese while disliking anime because it's Japanese would be blatantly racist.

Have we really started calling people racist based upon the cartoons that they like? >.<

"Started"? Have you seen some of the early Disney films, and others from the same period?

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Lemmy wrote:
Then again, being uninformed/uninterested in something... Even disliking it... Is not necessarily bigotry.

It's also not what I'm talking about.

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Nicos wrote:
We all make false inferences in our lives and plenty of our choices are based on irrational judgements, It's standard human behaviour. Jumping from that to racism is probably too much.

If the information upon which you've based your false inferences is age, then it's ageism.

If the information upon which you've based your false inferences is sex, then it's sexism.

If the information upon which you've based your false inferences is race, then it's racism.

...

Well, okay, I guess technically those are all "prejudice": judging prior to knowing. Theoretically it's not until you oppress someone that it becomes one of those "isms". But of course, they all start with prejudice, so I'm not sure I see a purpose in pointing out that being prejudiced in your thinking isn't actually [whatever]ism yet.

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thejeff wrote:
I do in fact know people who don't like anime specifically for the art styles.

So do I. (I even used to be one; it grew on me.) And that's fine; people can like/dislike different art styles.

That's not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about when the thing that's disliked is the stereotypical anime content of over-the-top action (etc), and all it takes for someone to assume that a work they haven't actually seen will fall into that category is for it to look Asian (whether in art style, set dressing, or both).

When somebody looks at Asian-style drawing and says "I don't like that art style," that's fine. No issue there.

When somebody looks at Asian-style drawing and says "I don't like the type of content that I'm assuming this has," that's what I was calling "racism" earlier. (Though I can accept the earlier assertion that "racism" might be the wrong word.)

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Krensky wrote:
Is that supposed to be some sort of dig against scrapple, or one against my typing ability?

Not everything has to be a dig against something/someone.

I made a sloppy reading error, and the resulting imagination of a shrapnel sandwich was (I thought) funny enough to share.

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NenkotaMoon wrote:
Isn't ATLA and LoK both animated Korea though?

Yes, the people holding the pens are Asians. That's why the animation looks like it was drawn in an Asian style. Interestingly enough, that has no influence on the content (which is usually what people talk about not liking from anime).

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Lemmy wrote:
I'd say Avatar has enough anime influence to count as anime if you want to classify it that way... The art style is very similar for one thing. It's not like manga/anime all share the exact same traits, after all... Bersek, Sailor Moon, Cowboy Bebop and Death Note are all anime... And they are all very different from each other, even though they do share similarities.

What conversation do you think you're having?

What do you think I said, to which "but they have similar art styles" is any kind of reply?

I don't disagree. Avatar and eastern anime do have some visual similarities.

What I don't understand is what point you're trying to make by bringing up a fact that I already discussed myself. You're really starting to make me wonder if you even know what I've said so far.

Can you, in your own words, summarize some of the content of my posts? Because if not, then I have better ways to use my time than to spew words at someone not interested in a two-way dialogue.

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Krensky wrote:
Scrappel, egg, and cheese on a soft kaiser.

I read the first word as "shrapnel".

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Lemmy wrote:
Avatar's art-style does look "anime-ish", though... And focusing on asian martial arts and chi is something very common in anime. Obviously, it also has many elements common to western story-telling, but the show is obviously influenced by Japanese animation as well.

"Influenced by"? Sure.

But remember, we're talking about "These are alike enough that they can be lumped together, to the degree that someone who likes/dislikes one will probably feel the same about the other". Making that level of comparison just based on the fact they both include Asian martial arts is like lumping together Field of Dreams and Angels in the Outfield just based on the fact they both focus on American baseball.

I mean, sure, if someone hates baseball sooooo much that it was the primary reason they didn't like Field of Dreams, then yeah, you could probably guess that they won't like Angels in the Outfield either because it also centers around baseball. Similarly, if someone hates Asian martial arts sooooo much that it was the primary reason they didn't like "anime", then yeah, you could probably guess that they won't like Avatar either because it also heavily involves Asian martial arts.

But you and I both know we're not talking about people saying "No thanks, I really dislike seeing Asian martial arts in TV shows". We're talking about people who dislike some of the action/narrative tropes stereotypically associated with a small subset of (primarily) Japanese media, mistakenly believe it to be common enough among Asian animation in general that it can be identified with the term "anime", and then dismiss any cartoon that looks the least bit "Asian-ish" because they small-mindedly assume it's going to be the same stuff.

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thejeff wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
I believe what Jiggy meant was 'I won't watch Avatar because it's Japanese' is wrong-headed.

If so, that's even weirder.

Actually liking Avatar because it's not Japanese while disliking anime because it's Japanese would be blatantly racist.

Yes, it would. It's also not remotely close to the content of the post you quoted. I'm honestly baffled at trying to extrapolate what your train of thought could have been, to get from his post to yours.

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TriOmegaZero wrote:
I believe what Jiggy meant was 'I won't watch Avatar because it's Japanese' is wrong-headed.

This is the closest. Maybe I shouldn't reply since this has gotten to be quite a derail already, but you can see the issue in this example from above (adding some bolding for emphasis):

thejeff wrote:

On the other hand, wrapping back to something closer to the original assertion:

"I'm not interested in Avatar because I don't like anime"

"Avatar's not actually anime, since it's American. Therefore, despite it imitating anime, there's no reason to think you won't like it."

The closest Avatar gets to "imitating anime" is that the setting is Asian-inspired (i.e., warriors' armor resembles that of ancient China instead of ancient Europe, and people have names like "Tai Li" instead of "Jenny").

That's it. Common tropes of anime-style storytelling are largely absent (for instance, you don't have multi-episode flashback arcs), the pacing is very western, there's no casual sexism, many standard character growth paths are absent, and the characters interact with each other like westerners rather than like the Japanese. The uninformed will point to glowy magical powers, but that's actually closer to X-Men than to most anime. The selectively-informed will point to the authors having mentioned being influenced by anime, but that doesn't mean that the final product ended up being any closer to anime than it is to the various other things it was inspired by.

The genuine similarities to actual action-anime are pretty slim. All it takes for someone to assume it's anime (or just close enough to anime that they can guess whether they'll like it or not) is that it's got exotic buildings and names.

It's a matter of judging the content based on superficial appearances. People have an idea of "anime" that's (erroneously) restricted to a handful of tropes they don't like (huge swords, screaming, flashing, etc), and anything that so much as looks Asian gets lumped in as more of the same.

Had Avatar been "skinned" with more western flavors—English castles, Scottish armor, bending through the use of claymores and rapiers instead of kung-fu, etc—then nothing about it would have left anyone calling it anime (or even suggesting that it "imitates" anime).

But it's got Asian skin, so people happily assume it's that Asian stuff over there: "anime".

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DarkPhoenixx wrote:
Can i take 10 white tracking someone? I assume not, as ranger have Quarry ability that allows him to "take 10 on his Survival skill checks while moving at normal speed, without penalty".
Core Rulebook wrote:
Taking 10: When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, calculate your result as if you had rolled a 10. For many routine tasks, taking 10 makes them automatically successful. Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10. In most cases, taking 10 is purely a safety measure—you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll (a 10). Taking 10 is especially useful in situations where a particularly high roll wouldn't help.

The ability you're looking at means two things: one, that the ranger can always take 10 to follow tracks, even in circumstances (rare though they may be for tracking) in which other characters could not; and two, there's the "normal speed, without penalty" part (which has nothing to do with taking 10) and refers to the fact that normally, tracking requires moving at half speed unless you accept a penalty to your check.

In short: anyone can take 10 to track someone under normal circumstances, while someone with the ability you cited can do so faster and under any circumstances.

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Lemmy wrote:
If Akira Toryama was named Roberto Silva and was born and raised in Brazil when he created DBZ, would that mean DBZ is not "anime"?

That's actually part of my point.

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In about 15 levels, I've found 2 Abras.

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Dang, the coolest recurring spawn I've found anywhere is Magmar in Como Park. I'm about to hit 15th level and I still haven't even evolved a Venonat or Metapod. :/

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Bjørn Røyrvik wrote:
Sundakan wrote:
Bjørn Røyrvik wrote:

High level mundanes are plenty epic, they just aren't as powerful as some of these shounen stories. You can do FotNS pretty well with PF out of the box, even if the game isn't designed to do DBZ or Bleach. Most importantly, the game is presented as flashily as lots of manga or anime.

Look at something like Beowulf or Gilgamesh: they did some pretty epic s%#* but it isn't presented blow by blow (and no speedlines or shounen screaming) because merely telling you what they did should be enough to point out how frickin' amazing they were, and their exploits are in almost every respect perfectly doable straight out of core.

...No, they're not. At least in respect to Beowulf, I'm not very familiar with the Epic of Gilgamesh.

Let's look at some exploits.

1.) Grappled Grendel and ripped his arm off.

This is an ability unavailable to a Pathfinder martial. In fact, it's only available to f~&+ing Grendel in the rules.

2.) Killed Grendel's Mother.

Granted, though mostly that was because she was stupid. Funnily enough, this one makes your point the best, if not in the way you probably want. Beowulf was basically helpless in an underwater fight against a water dwelling creature.

3.) Blocked dragon fire with a shield. Then died.

Can't happen. Except the dying part.

1. player rolls well, dealing enough damage to put Grendel into negatives

DM: You struggle valiantly, finally ripping the monster's arm off. Injured, it flees into the night where it succumbs to its wounds

3.
Successful saving throw, maybe evasion.

Seriously, it's not that hard to do.

Out of curiosity, at what level do you picture this happening? You later mentioned ranger levels as a possible source for Evasion, which means at least 9th level, plus whatever other classes he might have. So what total character level do you picture for soloing Grendel and doing the block-fire-with-shield thing?

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Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
The Dragonball Z Roleplaying Forum is that way ------->

LINK'd that for ya.

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MMCJawa wrote:
Anyway, I guess the thing I find amusing about these lines of arguments is that Anime is a pretty broad topic covering multiple genres, ranging in tone, target demographic, and subject. It's no more useful than saying they want martials to emulate "TV". Okay, but "TV" covers everything from Gummi Bears to Xena: Warrior Princess to Game of Thrones. Clearly more specific references are needed.

Yeah, generally they mean the type of Japanese action-anime that sometimes gets ported over to America, because they don't really have much of a concept of "anime" beyond their tiny perspective of Japan.

This is, of course, deeply racist.* But as long as the US has more extreme forms of racism against which gamers can contrast their own actions, it largely goes unacknowledged.

*Perfect example: when someone expresses a lack of interest in Avatar: the Last Airbender—a 100% American show with an eastern-flavored setting—because they're "not into anime". A cartoon with Asians? Must be that "anime" stuff from Japan, which of course I already fully understand.


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Bwuh...? I was wondering why nobody was responding to the huge post I made on Friday, so I came to look... and it's gone?! Cripes. I spent forever on that. Ugh. Here we go again. Okay, while Halsere is working on his ritual spell, here are the rest of the names.

L3 - Hanvur Lekko - History DC 13:

This philanthropist was awarded his title by virtue of his humanitarian efforts.

L4 (where you've already been) - Gil Soulevon - History DC 10:

The king's daughter advocated heavily for this fencer's title, giving rise to rumors of a love affair.

L5 - Ella Barston - History DC 11:

This halfing entertainer earned her place here with unparalleled song and dance.

L6 - Telia Sen - History DC 15:

This expert craftswoman created beautiful metallic finery, including the king's own crown.

L7 - Gastovere Schmadtovich - History DC 12:

This mountain of a man was a decorated war hero.

R3 - Dendrivus Teskovar - History DC 16:

This expert smith crafted some of the finest magical arms, armor and gear the kingdom has ever known.

R4 - Lilac Thornbranch - History DC 13:

This elven ranger's work as a scout and assassin was instrumental during the first conflict against Koriszegy.

R5 - Storven Gillenbach - History DC 12:

This was one of the wisest royal advisors in history.

R6 - Kallifis Var - History DC 14:

This mage was something of a magical advisor, offering arcane solutions to tricky royal problems.

R7 - Mar Vol - History DC 13:

A hero of the people, this woman stood against a great beast that threatened to ravage the city.

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My wife and I went on an expedition to Silver Lake Park in the Twin Cities. There's a small island there with three PokeStops and a gym. About 50 people were there, riding the simultaneous lures to scoop up a bunch of water types.

A Gyarados spawned. A chorus of gasps and exclamations could be heard in all directions, followed shortly thereafter by a staggered series of cheers as people caught it. Sadly, mine is the minimum CP for the species, making it probably rather infeasible to power up and use. My wife's, however, is nearly 400, so she's probably better off pumping it than collecting another ~340 candies to evolve one herself.

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Gorbacz wrote:

Disclaimer: I am a manga/anime fan, currently halfway through Macross Delta and Seven Deadly Sins. So yeah, if you hope for some quality harping on how weaboo wuxia bullcrap killed Gary Gygax, not here.

Anyway. I've noticed a conjecture. Several of the most outspoken "martial-caster disparity/Fighters need to be more awesome/Failzo failed us again by failing" people are big on action anime. Either they profess it openly here, or a cursory glance at the Internet reveals their passionate presence on anime forums or their YouTube channels full of Ninja Scroll clips or their 18+ Sailor Moon tumblrs. Also, Book of Nine Swords was the bestest d20 supplement ever.

This got me thinking. Perhaps, after watching this, this and of course this, their expectations regarding sword-swinging characters are at a level which Pathfinder, a game designed mostly by non-anime-watching folks who apparently envision high level Fighters more something like this, cannot quite satisfy. Which leads to frustrations elaborated in all the locked threads.

Maybe there is a game out there which caters better to running barefoot on clouds, swinging your sword so that mountains are torn assunder, EXCEPT YOUR SWORD DOESN'T EVEN TOUCH THESE MOUNTAINS, IT'S THE SONIC WAVE OF MANA WHICH THE SWING GENERATES THAT TEARS THE WORLD APART?

Your perception is a bit off. Or at least, incomplete.

You see, Pathfinder is a game where some of the classes already can walk barefoot on clouds and tear mountains (or reality itself) asunder without touching them. But then other classes can't. Yet all of these classes are presented as being equal, both on the player side (same XP to level up, same stat allotments, etc) and on the GM side (same CR to encounter the guy who can walk on the clouds as to encounter the guy who can't).

You seem to think that the Pathfinder game exists in a quasi-realistic space where there's no high-anime craziness going on, and the people who want their fighters to really go nuts should probably be using a different game because that's not the kind of stuff Pathfinder supports.

But you're wrong. Pathfinder does support wacky anime stuff, just not for every class. Half the classes in Pathfinder are already playing super-wowza action-anime, including the very abilities you thought you were being hyperbolic with, while other classes don't get to participate in what the first half is doing. The folks you're (sort of) listening to are only asking that the rest of the classes get to play the same game that some of them already are, not asking for some of the classes to leap into territory that's outside the scope of what Pathfinder already deals with.

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Sissyl wrote:
I would say Dragonites don't come from eggs. They are evolved pokemon, y'know?

He probably meant that most Dragonites were being evolved from Dratinis that were hatched from 10k eggs.

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Kolokotroni wrote:
You will need to keep catching more pokemon of the same type to keep your supply up, but that should just come as a consequence of playing in the same places you caught them initially.

I think this fact just knocked about a dozen pokemon off my dream team candidate list. :/

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Caineach wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:
I think I managed to find it *just* before it disappeared. Just a minute after I caught it two cars came by searching for the same thing, but they weren't able to find it.
Actually, I think the reason they couldn't find it is because you caught it. Near as I can tell, the only way to catch the same pokemon as someone else is if the second person initiates the "battle" process before the first person has finished catching it.
I haven't noticed this to be true at all

You probably wouldn't notice it if you're usually playing by yourself.

The bulk of the time I'm playing, I'm within arm's reach of my wife, and we try to catch the same pokemon, which appear in the same spot at the same time on both our phones. Every time that we both get into the ball-throwing screen before either of us completes the catch, we're both able to catch the same pokemon (barring app crashes and the like). Every time one of us has "jumped the gun" by eagerly catching the pokemon without waiting for the other, if the first of us has finished catching, the pokemon is no longer on the map for the other of us to grab.

There have been no exceptions, across 13 levels of play, with 90% of the time being side-by-side. So I'm pretty convinced this is how it works.

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Matrix Dragon wrote:
I think I managed to find it *just* before it disappeared. Just a minute after I caught it two cars came by searching for the same thing, but they weren't able to find it.

Actually, I think the reason they couldn't find it is because you caught it. Near as I can tell, the only way to catch the same pokemon as someone else is if the second person initiates the "battle" process before the first person has finished catching it.

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Murdock Mudeater wrote:
The thing calculates damage based on average AC and attack values, but most PCs and monsters will be constantly subject to contextual modifiers that make much of this meaningless.

Variations don't make the baseline meaningless; they're the reason you want to know the baseline in the first place. Knowing the neutral baseline is the only way to figure out how impactful all those "contextual modifiers" actually are, so that you can make informed decisions when they come up. (For example: do you keep full-attacking despite being Shaken, or do you take a round off for a potion of remove fear? If you don't know the baselines, you're just guessing.)

Quote:
So it's useful, if the PC and their enemy are just slapping each other back and forth, waiting to see which will drop first

That's how Pathfinder martial combat is designed to work (especially once you hit BAB+6 and start full-attacking). It is extremely rare that there's anything a Pathfinder weapon-user can do (other than cast a spell) that's going to be a better tactical choice than simply continuing to full-attack. Pathfinder is designed that way.

Sure, plenty of things come to mind that you could do: tricks you've seen in movies or books, which use terrain or other elements of the environment to tilt a battle in your favor. But if you look at how the Pathfinder game actually implements those things, you discover that they pale in comparison to just full-attacking.

That's among the major issues cited by folks who abandon or heavily houserule Pathfinder: the dynamic, cinematic combat that narrative-minded folks want in their RPG just isn't supported in Pathfinder (past the first few levels).

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Good to hear. If I finally caught my 100 Magikarp and got a Gyarados and he only stayed relevant for a weekend, I'd be pretty pissed.

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Think there's enough stardust in the "micro-economy" to allow a single favorite to "keep up"? Or maybe two? That'd at least be something.

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Well, I've come up with something that I think I don't like about this game. It seems that, in terms of fighting ability, pokemon have a rather limited "shelf life". It seems to stem from the fact that (A) all your critters' max CP increases as you gain levels, and (B) the CP of a wild pokemon you encounter can be anywhere on the available spectrum for your level.

For example:
I caught a bunch of Spearows and eventually evolved a Fearow. The Spearow I chose for evolving was the highest-CP one I had; the gauge was nearly at max. Thus, the Fearow had the same "relative" CP (i.e., nearly max on the CP arc). Best Fearow I could hope for. But then a few levels later, the cap has raised. My Fearow is no longer "nearly max CP", and then I randomly encounter a wild Fearow that is nearly max CP, and it's about 100CP higher than the one I evolved.

From that point on, my old Fearow is basically obsolete (to say nothing of his possibility of having already been obsolete if I just happen to be surrounded by higher-level gyms, but that's a different topic), and the only value of the original Fearow was whatever fights he was able to win in the time between evolving him and finding the better one.

Which was about two or three days.

Really? So I could spend who knows how long gathering enough redundant pokemon to evolve my best one, then have it exist near the top of my roster for just however long it takes me to run across a stronger replacement?

Clearly, the "Power Up" option seems to be the way to help your current strongest pokemon remain relevant, but can that even keep up? I mean, assuming that the pokemon you evolve is, at time of evolution, as close to the top of the curve as you could ever reasonably expect to find (meaning, if you found a high-power "replacement" a mere 5 minutes later, it wouldn't be any stronger than what you evolved), and then every time you level up (raising the CP cap) you power up that pokemon, would that do it? If you do one power up for each level gained since acquisition, will they "keep up"?

Even if the answer to the above is "yes", can you even DO that? Stardust costs keep rising, and you never gain stardust without gaining XP (thus causing you to level up, which means you need another power up...). And then you have to do that for AT LEAST six pokemon.

And if that isn't enough to keep up, then that means your best bet will always be whatever your most recent good catch was, and you just cycle through them constantly, replacing with new catches whichever ones have fallen behind. But then that would mean that the entire power up mechanic (the only use for stardust) is completely meaningless.

Am I missing something?

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Went on a "PokeDate" with my wife to one of the larger parks in my area. And holy balls, I should have been going there from the beginning. It is ridiculously jam-packed with PokeStops, and lots of interesting spawns. There are places where you can stand in the overlapping area of 3-4 PokeStops at once, which of course means that groups of friends would show up and activate Lure Modules on all of them, then stand in the overlap and be catching something every 90 seconds or so. Sometimes cool things were spawning faster than I could catch them.

At the main conservatory building, there was a gym, and about a dozen PokeStops, all with Lures running constantly. Congregated in the area were about 75-100 people, all with phones out, yelling out when they found something good or cheering about what they'd just caught. It was unreal. Last time I've seen that many people congregated in the park, there was a popular musician performing for them. Had two different bewildered people ask what the hell was going on.

I caught nearly half a dozen each of Eevee, Goldeen, Magikarp, and Oddish; two Magmar; Bellsprout; Abra; Poliwag; Poliwhirl; bulbasaur; squirtle; seel; and maybe a couple others I can't remember (not to mention innumerable jank). Oh, also hatched my first 10km egg (while my first Lucky Egg was running!) and got an Electabuzz.

Man, what a night.

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I got a Charmander as my starter, and another in an egg. I've never seen one in the wild; not even on my "Nearby" list, where I've occasionally seen both Bulbasaurs and Squirtles.

Ironically, I would have picked Squirtle as my starter, but I figured I didn't know where to catch fire-types and had plenty of lakes around (I'm in Minnesota) for catching water-types, so I thought I'd diversify by picking Charmander instead. Had I realized then that evolving requires catching multiples of a single Pokémon, I'd have made the exact opposite choice: give up on Charmander since there's no way I'll ever evolve him, and stick with Squirtle in hopes of an eventual Blastoise.

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There's a gas station on my way to work that I stopped at a couple of times, and both times it was chock full of pokemon. The other day there was a Jinx and a Gastly and a couple other things. Today was two Drowzee, a Fearow, a Bellsprout, an Oddish, and I think something else. In like ten minutes.

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Kalindlara wrote:

Even I've gotten dragged into toxic and offensive behavior lately. It hurts, to know that I can't remain civil, and for everyone to see it... to break my promise and ruin my reputation. I might not be around much longer as a result.

Good luck, Hmm. I hope you succeed where I failed.

You've gotta do what's best for you, whether that's to stay involved and vigilantly police your own behavior, or withdraw (to whatever degree).

I tried soldiering on for quite a while, hoping that maybe I could help put things right from time to time. However, it eventually became clear that the stress and anger building up from the unchecked abuse running rampant (not just in the forums, but through private channels and in person as well) were getting to the point of affecting my overall quality of life. I had to get out, and since doing so, I've become a substantially happier and kinder person.

But maybe you can achieve a different result; best of luck to you. :)

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Matrix Dragon wrote:
Has anyone else been having trouble with their pokemon finder today? I seem to be suffering from a bug that prevents it from properly showing how far away pokemon are from me. Everything shows as three footprints, even when I am right on top of them.

Just got back from my lunch break, and yeah, everything was at 3, even if I was staring at it. Which sucks, because otherwise I'd have chased down a Drowzee (the last I need to evolve one) and a Gastly. >:(

Also had a few freeze-ups.

On the bright side, I managed to catch my first Abra, hatch a Likitung, evolve a Ratatta and a Zubat, and hit 9th level.

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Cripes, I didn't even know the CPs went that high. O_O

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Caineach wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Dang, maybe I need to actually start trying to learn to throw curveballs, then.
I have never actively tried to throw a curveball and gotten the bonus, but I will randomly get the bonus for normal throws all the time.

I played around with it a little, and discovered that you don't have to "go all the way" on a curve ball to get the bonus. That is, you're supposed to spin it until it starts glowing, but if you kind of just jostle it enough to turn it over, and throw it before it loses that momentum, you'll still get the curveball bonus.

So, for instance, if you started to throw, but bailed out because you saw the target start to move around, then immediately reinitiate a throw, you could give it just enough spin from that extra bit of motion that it counts as a curveball.

Also, if you touch too much of the screen at once (like if your thumb is lying somewhat flat on the screen), you can confuse the touchscreen enough to make it think you're moving around and spinning the ball.

Your unintentional curveballs might be something like that.

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