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I'm back!

True Dragons (all Bestiaries)

Kinetic Breath (Su) (CR +1): Dragons are often considered elemental paragons due to their nature. This is further proven by some species of dragons that have a different kind of breath weapon.

The dragon gains the supernatural ability to unleash a kinetic blast instead of regular breath weapon, as per the Kineticist's feature. This blast has to match either the dragon's elemental subtype or the ragon's original breath weapon type. A red or gold dragon has to have the Fire Blast, a bronze or silver dragon can have either the Water Blast or the Cold Blast (both are keyed as "water" element) and a blue dragon can either have the Earth Blast (its subtype) or the Electric Blast (its original breath weapon). The blast deals 2d6 points of damage per the dragon's age category, regardless if the blast is energy or physical.

A Young Adult dragon gains the Expanded Element feature, selecting either a new secondary blast or expanding the primary blast. If it chooses a secondary blast, it can be any element, but not the one opposed to the dragon's nature. A red dragon could select Air or Earth Blast, but not Water or Cold Blast. If it chooses to expand the primary blast, it gains one composite blast of its choice, according to the blast's respective element. However, the Composite Blast must not use an opposing element. A red dragon could not select Steam Blast as it cannot use Water Blast. The dragon also gains the Burn feature, as per the Kineticist's feature, using the dragon's HD as the Kineticist level. Furthermore, using the Kinetic Breath while Burning add a recharge time equal to 1 round per Burn point used. Burning 3 points adds 3 rounds before the dragon can use it again.

An Ancient dragon gains the Expanded Element feature, following the same rules. However, when picking the Composite Blast if it chooses to expand it, it can be a Blast that uses an opposing element. A red dragon could select Steam Blast even if it cannot select Water Blast.

Wild Talents (CR +1): Some dragons can alter their breath weapon to such a degree that they relinquish their spellcasting abilities. The dragon gains defense, infusion and utility wild talents, using its sorcerer level as its kineticist level.

The talents alter the breath weapon similar to how they alter a regular Kinetic Blast. The dragon has to select talents according to its Kineticist level and its elemental subtype or its breath weapon type. A silver dragon could select talents with the Water or Cold Blast requirements.

The dragon also gains the Burn feature, as per the Kineticist's feature, using the dragon's HD as the Kineticist level. Furthermore, using the Kinetic Breath while Burning add a recharge time equal to 1 round per Burn point used. Burning 3 points adds 3 rounds before the dragon can use it again.

If the dragon also has the Kinetic Breath variant, the talents apply to the breath as well.

(I... might need some input, because the more I think about it, the more it can be a little... complicated.)

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Sphynx wrote:
KingmanHighborn wrote:
So an air being, bending air? :P

I'm one of those guys that during stormy weather, sits outside in his swim trunks. I did steel construction for several years, just because I liked being at the top of the construct where the wind blew the hardest. Wing-suit is my favorite form of travel, particularly on cloudy windy days. ;)

So yeah... the Sylph Kineticst (Aether/Air) screams to me like no combination ever has. :P

2nd favorite: Sylph from the Wizard Elemental School of Air.

Sylph AeroKineticist

Oread Geokineticist
Ifrit Pyrokineticist
Undine Hydrokineticist

Sounds like no-brainers to me ^_^

The "shapeshifter" class could be an archetype for the Druid, trading their spellcasting to boost the Wild Shape into different creatures.

James Jacobs wrote:
Sersi wrote:

I immediately made to the connection between the kineticist and Carrie or Firestarter in a similar to way that the gunslinger class screams Dark Tower's Roland.

But with that sort of context, the class feels properly occult as that is the bread and butter of so many of Stephen King's horror books. Just my take on it however.

Exactly spot on.

I understand the inspiration, but when magic has been there "before" occult classes, it does beg the question ;)

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Sure, no problem. Considering that they cleared all NPC classes as well, that leaves some space for more classes.

Chess Pwn wrote:
JiCi wrote:
Protoman wrote:

This is a joke right?

Like Chess Pwn said, Kinetic Blade.

Needing to use infusion on default blast probably would still prevent it from using it as a melee conductive weapon though.

Huh... no? It's not a joke? I was wondering if you could blow up a blast up an opponent's face at point-blank range.

Sounds like a simple thing to ask too.

Dude, not everyone is interested into SPAMMING Kinetic Blade ad nauseum. I'm looking for options IN CASE it doesn't work.

Yes you can blow up point-blank range. It was a simple question and thus got a simple answer. Kinetic blade.

I'm not sure what your cases are where Kinetic blade wouldn't work. It's the way to do melee touch attack with your elemental blasts.

Well, like I explained, using a conductive weapon require you to use a spell-like or supernatural ability with the same kind of attack, such as a melee touch attack for a melee attack.

Protoman wrote:

This is a joke right?

Like Chess Pwn said, Kinetic Blade.

Needing to use infusion on default blast probably would still prevent it from using it as a melee conductive weapon though.

Huh... no? It's not a joke? I was wondering if you could blow up a blast up an opponent's face at point-blank range.

Sounds like a simple thing to ask too.

Dude, not everyone is interested into SPAMMING Kinetic Blade ad nauseum. I'm looking for options IN CASE it doesn't work.

The Medium gains power with spirits of the dead based on key areas; the Mesmerist uses a powerful gaze; the Occultist channel power through ancient relics; the Psychic has... psychic powers, which are different from regular magical spells; the Spiritualist can conjure a Phantom.

(We're talking about some pretty weird and obscure abilities here.)

And then you have the Kineticist, who can manifest elemental energy in various ways... like just about any spellcaster with a knack for evocation spells.

Seriously, of all Occult classes, the Kineticist comes out as the least alienating/unnerving class. You can EASILY pass as a monk-like warrior (insert Avatar: the Last Airbender reference here) or as a specialized spellcaster... until people realize that they can't counterspell you :P

Is it in the name, because "Kineticist" refers to mind powers? Would the name "elemancer" (pyromancer, hydromancer, aeromancer, geomancer, etc...) have put it as an "occult" class? Is manifesting elemental energy that special?

What's so "occult" about the Kineticist again?

Ok, you can shoot a Kinetic Blast with a ranged touch attack, but outside of Kinetic Fist, there's no Talent, let alone an option to use a Kinetic Blast in melee, thus using a melee touch attack.

Y'know, simply making a melee touch attack that deals your regular/standard blast damage.

So... aside from Kinetic Fist, any Talent that simply allow a Kineticist to deliver a Kinetic Blast up close?

Reason is that a Kineticist CAN use a conductive weapon with his Blast. Problem is that since the regular Blast is a ranged touch attack, the conductive weapon HAS to be a ranged weapon as well. Yeah... I can't really use a conductive spear and be able to poke opponents while igniting them at reach, because it's a melee attack, which the Blast isn't.

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Knitifine wrote:
People don't like the burn mechanic? News to me, it seems perfectly fine from where I'm sitting.

I wasn't there at the playtests, but from what I've heard, people hated the Burn mecanic so much that devs basically screamed: "STOP ASKING TO CHANGE THE BURN MECANIC! WE'RE KEEPING IT AS IT IS! YOU CANNOT HEAL IT EXCEPT BY RESTING! DEAL WITH IT!"

There can be a lot of confusion (and problems) about the Burn mecanic. Here's a few examples:
- Gather Power lets you reduce Burn, but it takes longer, up to 5 Burn points at 11th level if he uses a full round action AND a move action to Gather Power. Fair enough, except that you must have your hands, not even holding an item. Nothing allows a kineticist to hold his +3 conductive flaming spear in one hand while Gathering. I hope you like gauntlets, because it seems to be the only weapon that you can "hold on" while gathering.

- Infusion Specialization only applies to infusions, as Metakinesis and Composite Specialization are considered separate Talents. Even if by 20th level, you can reduce Burn by 6 points... you still need to Gather Power if you want to use a Composite Blast, be with or without Metakinesis. Another issue is that... very few times are you ever gonna need to Burn 6 points... at once.

- Composite Specialization comes in late... very late. You get it at 16th... when you get Expanded Element at 7th.

- Metakinetic Master only applies to one type... and it's at 19th level. Why not sooner? I dunno...

You can't really change these because it would make them broken, especially the Composite Blasts and Metakinesis. That's why I say that in order to "fix" the Kineticist, you just need to give him more options. Feats are easy to add, and they shouldn't be taken lightly either. Apparently, the Kineticist is also very feat-dependant.

QuidEst wrote:
That's not how non-lethal works. Once your non-lethal damage exceeds your current hitpoints, you fall unconscious. Not sure where you're getting the "half" from.

Oh... 3.0 stygma... sorry ^^;

JiCi wrote:
And if I find a way to cast infinite spells, I want the devs to have done a better job writing the rules in the first place.

Technically, that's not the same thing, because in spellcasting there is a TON of options, be class features, feats, actual spells, etc...

The Burn mecanic on the other hand basically shuts down every single way to counter it.

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Sphynx wrote:
As JiCi stated, the only real 'fix' would be a way to recover burn and the HPs associated with it. Throwing burn away because you don't like it, that just breaks things worse than they are.

The thing is that there ARE ways to prevent Burn, such as Gather Power. The problem is that if you ever Burn... you're screwed.

How so? You're gradually getting more vulnerable to non-lethal damage. Don't forget that if you take half your full HP total in non-lethal damage, you fall unconscious. The more you Burn, the more at risk you get. The more lethal damage you take WHILE Burned, the worst you'll get.

Sure, Elemental Overflow will bolster you, but only for a short while.

That's why I think that regular methods such as feats, spells and magic items would have been a good idea to have to counter Burn. The devs even went AS FAR AS stating that being resistant or immune to non-lethal damage doesn't allow you to Burn.

Ok... really now? Hey, if I find a way to counter Burn, I want to be rewarded for that, not punished...

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It's not the fact that Burn is a bad mecanic; it's that they were adamant to tell us that Burn cannot be healed outside of resting, like they were strict about it.

You want to fix Burn? Simple, really simple...

- Have a feat that allow to recover from Burn, like one point per hour or minute.
- Have a feat that allows you to heal Burn via normal means, like healing spells and potions.
- Have a spell that heals Burn specifically
- Have a magic item that "absorbs" Burn until it shatters.

You want to balance these? Simple, again. Make them expansive or with high requirements.

Well... anything that DOESN'T look like a dungeon would work.

15) A library, like a HUGE one, with a few magic tomes hidden left and right.

16) A museum with animated exhibits.

17) A mansion... as dumb as it sounds, a mansion with multiple accessible floors, multiple rooms and wide spaces doesn't scream ominous... until whatever haunts the place shows up. I'm not talking about a castle, but an actual house.

Evil Finnish Chaos Beast wrote:
I wonder how many templates will be added to the fifth Bestiary...

I'm all for templates presented in APs.

Personally, the only class I could see happen is a Tinkerer/Gadgeteer/Artificer type of class, basically someone who build stuff that mimics spells.

I do have a feeling that 5 new dragons will be presented in this book. However, I see a little problem if they want to "follow" the trend of occult materials.

Air, Earth, Fire and Water dragons? Huh... they're called Primal Dragons... and they're in B2.

The best options I could see are:
- Mesmer Dragon (Mesmerist)
- Phantom Dragon (Spiritualist)
- Mind Dragon (combination of Psychic and Kineticist [aether])
- Relic Dragon (Occultist)
- Spirit Dragon (Medium)

Also, what WOULD be cool is if they have alternate traits for dragons that use the Kineticist's class features. For instance:
- Replacing the breath weapon by the Kinetic Blast
- Replacing spells by Talents
- Applying Talents to the breath weapons

Seriously, a Brine Dragon could fight like a Hydrokineticist, just like a Red Dragon could fight like a Pyrokineticist.

Let's just hope for the best.

Archmage Joda wrote:
JiCi wrote:

My take:

Spellblade (Magus): Ok, the recently-released Mindblade is better suited. The Spellblade just grants and OFF-hand weak dagger for ONE minute... what's the point? Sure, you can still use your abilities such as Spellstrike and Spell Combat while wielding the Spellblade, but... pretty sure that a regular enhanced dagger can do the trick.

Just to agree and further emphasize how lame this archetype is, no you can't spellstrike with the dagger, because that archetype trades away spellstrike.

So it's Spell Combat only...


My take:

Blade Adept (Arcanist): The arcanist isn't a martial class to begin with, so give it the ability to use a sword WITHOUT a decent BAB? Someone converted the Battle Sorcerer, which basically traded 1 spell slot and spell known per level for a medium BAB.

Student of Stone (Monk): This monk archetype for Oreads trades all
speed enhancements for a SINGLE +1 bonus to various rolls when touching the ground. Problem: it doesn't scale... at all. Speed has a total of +60 ft., but this one doesn't, not even +1/level.

Spellblade (Magus): Ok, the recently-released Mindblade is better suited. The Spellblade just grants and OFF-hand weak dagger for ONE minute... what's the point? Sure, you can still use your abilities such as Spellstrike and Spell Combat while wielding the Spellblade, but... pretty sure that a regular enhanced dagger can do the trick.

Broodmaster (Summoner): The idea of having more than one Eidolon is fine, but... WHY doesn't it follow the same rules as other archetypes that grant multiple companions for instance? A 10th-level broodmaster could have 1 10th-level eidolon, 2 5th-level eidolons, 1 8th-level and 1 2nd-level eidolons, and so forth.

Two-Weapon Warrior (Fighter): This archetype needs to be errataed, because the wording is awkward.
- Twin Blades, Improved Balance and Perfect Balance should be merged into ONE ability that reduces the TWF penalties according to levels, like "reducing the penalties by 1 per 4 levels".
- Doublestrike should be the ability to make 2 attacks AS PART OF any standard action, meaning that charges and Vital Strikes would be available.

Elemental Ascetic (Kineticist): Look, I'm all for a monk-like Kineticist, but... why did they remove the Kinetic Blast? I feel like they could have worked something else to allow both melee and ranged attacks with the blast/fist.

I was wondering the same thing.

SheepishEidolon wrote:
JiCi wrote:
Here's my gripe with gauntlets: it is NEVER considered an unarmed strike.

Hmm, maybe I miss something, but according to both is possible:

Gauntlet: This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack. The cost and weight given are for a single gauntlet. Medium and heavy armors (except breastplate) come with gauntlets. Your opponent cannot use a disarm action to disarm you of gauntlets.
Gauntlet, Spiked: The cost and weight given are for a single gauntlet. An attack with a spiked gauntlet is considered an armed attack. Your opponent cannot use a disarm action to disarm you of spiked gauntlets.

Yeah, just noticed it too... 3.5 stygma...

However, many abilities don't work with gauntlets. Hell, even the monk's flurry doesn't work with gauntlets; a brawler's flurry works with gauntlets though.

Yeah, the thing is that you MUSTN'T wear gauntlets to use certain abilities. I'd be happy if Kinetic Fist can work with gauntlets though.

SheepishEidolon wrote:

Some things coming to my mind:

1) equip a gauntlet
2) go for variant multiclassing with monk
3) go for massive sneak attack and two-weapon fighting

While unarmed combat has drawbacks, it also has benefits: If you have no weapons, you don't suffer from disarm or sunder. And you don't have to spend actions to equip something.

Here's my gripe with gauntlets: it never works with unarmed strikes abilities


I could be wearing gauntlets of the weaponmasters and punch people without a problem as an unarmed attack, as it DOESN'T state that these are considered to be masterwork gauntlets (unlike staffs and rods which often act as quarterstaffs and maces)... but I'm wearing a pair of regular gauntlets from a discarded full plate, then it's an armed attack.

Furthermore, several abilities DON'T work with gauntlets.
- The Unarmed Fighter... Fighter Archetype only works with unarmed strikes. If you use gauntlets, you would have to go with the Brawler Fighter Archetype instead.

- Kinetic Fist, which got a LOT of attention lately, DOESN'T work with gauntlets.

All in all, gauntlets, brass knuckles, cestuses and spikes gauntlets are NOT in the Natural weapon group... when Unarmed Strike is BOTH in Natural and Close weapon groups.

<rant over>

So yeah... TWF, Sneak Attacks, Touch Spells and such can all work. Only problem is that unarmed strikes still remain a little... underwhelming on its own. If you can't TWF because you're holding a rope, sneak because you're discovered or cast spells because you're out of them... you're screwed nonetheless...

I know that Path of War, a.k.a. Tome of Battle for Pathfinder, has its equivalent of the Greater Unarmed Strike feat. However, I'd see to see what we CAN do using only Paizo's books before looking at 3rd-parties... mostly because each GM has its own restrictions about 3rd-parties.

Ok, there are several archetypes and character concepts that rely on unarmed strikes and several regular classes can focus a lot of unarmed strikes, such as the recently-released Kineticist. (Kinetic Blast requires one hand free, Gather Power requires both hands free, Kinetic Blade requires one hand free and Kinetic Fist... speaks for itself.)

Here's my problem: Unarmed strikes are weak and pathetic...

1d3 points of damage for a Medium character, needs a feat to make them lethal and safe to use, you can injure yourself against certains enemies and every single item that is worn as gloves doesn't enhance them. For instance, I need a certain amulet, because a gauntlet doesn't transfer its properties to your hand... somehow...

Natural armor bonuses don't get replaced by regular armor bonuses, but damage does...

If Improved Unarmed Strike increased your damage from 1d3 to 1d6, that would have been a touch better, but it's not the case as of now.

So, here's my question: how to make unarmed strikes viable?

thorin001 wrote:
Squirrel_Dude wrote:

Eh, some of the classes in the ACG, the ninja and the samurai should only count for 1/2 because they rip so many mechanics from other classes.

I see your point, though.

Hell, the Ninja, Samurai, and Anti-Paladin are only archetypes.

They still got presented as "classes", not as "archetypes".

Beside, does it really matter if they're actual classes or classes that look like archetypes?

chaoseffect wrote:
Still have zero support for my "water balloon throwing badass" concept.

It's called a Hydrokineticist :P

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- 11 classes in the Core Rulebook
(Barbarian, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Sorcerer, Wizard)

- 7 classes in the APG
(Alchemist, Cavalier, Inquisitor, Oracle, Summoner, Witch, Antipaladin)

- 1 class in UM

- 3 classes in UC
(Gunslinger, Ninja, Samurai)

- 10 classes in the ACG
(Arcanist, Bloodrager, Brawler, Hunter, Investigator, Shaman, Skald, Slayer, Swashbuckler, Warpriest)

- 6 classes in OA
(Kineticist, Medium, Mesmerist, Occultist, Psychic, Spiritualist)

- 1 class in Ultimate Intrigue

Point being that after the viligante, we'll be at 39 classes. That's a lot of options, WITHOUT counting the archetypes and the Unchained versions. If you can't find your niche with 39 classes, there's a little problem :P

I'm not talking about bloating here. I just don't think that the Pathfinder system will need more classes after the viligante. I mean... what else can be turned into a class? Pretty sure that if it would be a class, it could be turned into an archetype or a prestige class instead. Sure, there are many hybrid classes that could be made, but... even then, the current hybrid classes fill up most of the roles a player could be, and that's without checking the archetypes that USE other class features to change completely the base classes.

Ok, fine, if there's only ONE more class to be added... and to make it 40, a nice round number, I could see an Engineer/Tinkerer/Artificer class. Basically, there's a room for a class that build gadgets that mimic spells, as well as large mech-like armors, vehicles and other steampunk-like contraptions.

BTW, I'm not including 3rd-party classes, but you get my point about official 1st-party classes, right?

Dragon78 wrote:

Life(positive energy)- positive energy blast, non-lethal damage, healing powers, animating objects, disruption weapon ability, life sense, control animals.

Void(negative energy)- negative energy blast, control/create undead, diminish growth, death effects, energy drain, detect undead, healed by negative energy/harmed by positive.

Light- light blast, light based illusions, invisibility, solid light based constructs such as weapons, armor, tools, walls, bridges, buildings and creatures, prismatic blast, immune to dazzle/light based blindness.

Dark/Shadow- shadow blast, control shadows, move through shadows, become a shadow, stealth bonuses, see in darkness, control people by control there shadow.

Wood- wood blast(piercing), control/shape wood, plant growth, control plants, plant based polymorph, tremor sense near plants, poison immunity.

*steals format >:]; Sleight of Hand check successful*

Sonic - sound blast, deafening blast, ventriloquism, voice mimicry, silence zone, bardic performance enhancements

Acid - acid blast, lingering blast, pool trap creation, poisonous blast, acidic cloud, rusting grasp

Soilent wrote:

Does "Gathering Energy" Provoke AOO?

It seems to imply it, as it goes into great detail about it.

No... but getting damaged while doing it will screw you you.

As for feats... let's see...
* Weapon Focus (Kinetic Blast)
-- its related feats
* Weapon Specialization (Kinetic Blast)
-- its related feats
* Point-Blank Shot
* Precise Shot
-- Improved Precise Shot
* Shot on the Run
* Critical Focus (yep, if it requires an attack roll, it can crit :P)
-- its related feats
* Deadly Aim
* Elemental Focus (since it's a spell-like ability, I believe it can apply)
* Blighted Critical
* Improved Critical Shot
* Opening Volley
* Coordinated Shot

Deadbeat Doom wrote:

And that's the problem. I like the blast mechanics. I like the idea of a single massive blast per round. I don't like that I am going to dish out more DPR with Kinetic Blade/Whip in melee than I could ever hope to do with a Simple/Composite Blast.

Right now a non-melee Kineticist is dealing non-optimized, chained rogue levels of damage (albeit in a far more consistent manner). They should be dealing optimized blast sorcerer levels of damage without maxing out burn in one fight, at the very least.

Isn't this the purpose of... the Metakinesis feature?

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Tels wrote:

No, I don't think I will when, as far as I can tell, nearly every, singl post he's made in this thread is him saying, "WAAAAAH I CAN'T HEAL BURN!!! WAAAAH"

That's all he's doing. Complaining that he can't heal burn and that the designers failed because they didn't put in a spell or feat or an item to heal Burn even though healing Burn was explicitly denied from the very beginning of the damned playtest!

The Kineticist playtest is the best one I've ever seen on Paizo so far. Mark really listened to the players and included a lot of options based on our feedback. The Kineticist is, probably, the most 'community driven class design' that Paizo has ever done, and this guy is still bloody complaining about it!

I'm "complaining" about it because it would have been a no-brainer's addition. I wouldn't call this stubborness from the devs, but it is rather a strict ruling. As far as I can tell, healing Burn outside of resting wouldn't break the game. For instance, healing Burn would cancel Elemental Overflow. In fact, casting a Burn healing spell on an opposing kineticist would debuff him. Whoops...

The Kineticist's major problem is that he has a weakness to non-lethal damage. A bunch of rogues with saps or monks with non-lethal unarmed strikes can do a number on a kineticist by checking him out of Burn. If he's taken too much non-lethal damage, he can't Burn. There's an obvious problem with the Burn mecanic here.

Nothing that a high-level spell, a high-tier feat or an expansive magic item could solve though...

Milo v3 wrote:
I do think it should be said that electricity does have more than 1 infusion. It has 11 infusions available to it, though it only has 1 special electric infusion (3 if you count magnetic and thundering).

Agreed... Spray and Torrent aren't available to electricity... Dude, Torrent would have mimicked Lightning Bolt :P

Sphynx wrote:

I think the best "fix" would be to:

1) NonLethal damage from burn heals at 1 per 15 minutes, but not not healable from spells or abilities.

2) Burn is a separate counter, so healing of NonLethal Damage doesn't reduce your "Burn", and thus also doesn't expand the amount of times you can "Burn" between resting periods.

3) Elemental Defense has a reduce cost of 1 burn per 5 levels. So, at 10th level, you can spend 3 burn to receive the effects of having spent 5 burns on your defense.

Number 1 looks fine by me.

Here are some ideas, be energy-based or not ;)

* Acid Blast (Simple; Earth)
* Positive Energy Blast (Composite; Fire)
* Negative Energy Blast (Composite; Water; reasoning being Water is associated to life... and the dark abysses)
* Sonic Blast (Simple; Air)
* GREATER Force Blast (Composite; Aether; deals Composite Blast damage)
* Poison Blast (Composite; Earth; Acid or Metal Blast required; Some metals are toxic, so...)
* Light Blast (Composite; Fire; damage similar to Searing Light)
* Darkness Blast (Composite; Water; damage similar to Searing Light, in reverse)
* Alignment Blast (Composite; Any blast; dealing damage to a specific alignment)
* Bane Blast (Composite; Any blast; dealing damage to a specific creature type)
* Blinding/Deafening/Frightening/Exhausting/Staggering Blast (Composite; Any blast)
* Conductive Blast (Infusion; Any blast basically, transfering Blast damage to a single melee attack, be manufactured or natural, or be melee or ranged.)

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

I'm sorry but I don't see where you can recover spells, smites, rages, channels, bombs or ki points.

Yes you can recover grit and panache, but that's because those pools are tiny, they require a recovery mechanic to be useful.

Where are these recovery options?

Pearls of Power?

A Magus' spell recall and a Black Blade's Life Drinker?
The Recovered Rage feat?
The Oath of Vengeance?
The Hungry Ghost Monk's Steal Ki?
A Ki Mat?
The Ki Leech spell?

Those are some options to recover daily uses.

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

But in reality, the Kineticist ain't broke, doesn't need fixing. Stop saying that they get worse at taking burn and damage, because it's not true.

You can just say: "I don't like it." (Link is an example of me talking about this very thing).

Because that's an opinion, and that's absolutely fine.

But don't say that it's broken, unbalanced or the like. Because that's incorrect.

Ok then...

1) I never said that the Kineticist was broken. In fact, if it was broken, I wouldn't have even talked about it.

2) I re-read the class and yes, you have features to reduce Burn right down to 0, so that point is out.

3) You must have the Blind Oracle's Curse or something... because I'm not asking to change the class itself.

The class is fine as it is. Ugh... I'm sounding like a broken record, but... there's a distinct lack of options to recover from Burn. Someone else pointed it out: Spellcasters can recover spells, barbarians can recover rages, paladins can recover smite attempts, monks, ninjas and magi can recover pool points, gunslingers and swashbucklers can recover grit and panache points. I didn't read word for word the ENTIRE book, but pretty sure that the Medium, Mesmerist, Occultist, Psychic and Spiritualist can recover some of their daily uses through feats, magic items and/or spells.

I'm not asking to change the class, I'm just asking to give the class recovery options.

Aether, Air, Earth and Water seem to be easier to focus on.

- Aether has bludgeoning, piercing, slashing and force damage.
- Air has bludgeoning and electricity damage.
- Earth has bludgeoning, piercing and slashing damage.
- Water has bludgeoning and cold damage.

Fire... only has fire damage. Good luck covering damage type with fire alone.

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

You'll note that spellcasters don't have an ability to regain spell slots without 8 hours rest.

That Paladins don't have a way to regain smites without 8 hours rest.

That Occultists can't recover focus without 8 hours rest.

The difference being that casting spells doesn't exhaust you... most of the time.


If you don't like burn go play an Overwhelming Soul. You'll never ever take a single point of Burn.

I've shown you mathematically that the consequences of Burn do not get worse over time. The devs have provided you an option for playing without Burn if you psychologically can't get over the idea.

Burn damage can be mitigated: Improve your Con. Each point of burn becomes less of a percentage of your health lost when you improve your Con.

I'm aware of you CAN avoid Burn. The class ITSELF has like 4 or 5 abilities to AVOID getting Burned. The same problem remains though...

Yes, I'm defending a weakness of a class, just as when someone complains that spellcasters can't regain spellslots without 8 hours rest I would tell them it's a balancing factor of the class.

... the problem being that they deliberately made Burn uncurable aside from resting.

THAT's my problem, especially since it seems SO easy to make feats, magic items and spells that cure Burn and/or prevent it. I'm not saying, let alone asking, to remove Burn from the inital class. I just feel like it's just plain dumb that nothing was added to heal Burn.

Was it THAT hard to make a Conjuration (Healing) spell that cure Burn non-lethal damage? Was it THAT hard to make a series of feats to allow a Kineticist to reduce Burn damage? Was it THAT hard to make a magic item that lessen Burn? Come on now...

BTW, there's a hitch with Overwhelming Soul: you must Gather Power long enough to reduce Burn cost to 0 in order to "use" Burn. If you're that "desperate" to reduce Burn to 0... you might as well not use that archetype, play a regular Kineticist and emply that same strategy to Gather Power and reduce Burn cost normally. That archetype seems to be best-suited for physically-weaken races... or races with high Charisma scores.

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@Tels, @DM_aka_Dudemeister

It still doesn't change the fact that you cannot heal Burn damage. Furthermore, the more Burn you get, the more at risk you are at falling unconscious, since the threshold is getting smaller and smaller. Even if there are ways to avoid using Burn, once you get Burned, you're screwed.

You guys are actually DEFENDING a weakness/penalty? Really now? That's like hating abilities that reduce Arcane Spell Failure so you would want arcane spellcasters to HAVE a penalty when wearing armor, or even hating a red dragon for casting a spell or using a magic item that grant cold resistance/immunity.

You can suppress poisons, diseases, curses, ability damages/drains, negative levels, arcane spell failures, armor check penalties, non-proficiency penalties and other problems, but not Burn...

No high-level spell, no Burn-reducing feat, no magic item, not even a talent... nothing... Even being RESISTANT or IMMUNE to non-lethal damage doesn't work.

CalethosVB wrote:

Infusion Specialization reduces the burn cost of your infusions at a fixed rate. At 5, 8, 11, 14, 17, and 20 you reduce the cost by 1 point (total 6 burn free points towards infusions). Composite blasts get a reduction of 1 point of burn at 16th level. At 19th level you reduce the cost of any one Metakinesis you want (pick one when you gain this ability). This could grant free Empower, a move action Quicken with your Standard action being able to give you a fully infused basic blast or a 1 burn composite blast.

For a full-round action and a move action next round, you can throw out 4 composite blasts with 0 burn cost.

You can either pay for your blasting power in burn which benefits Elemental Overflow, or in action economy.

High level Kineticists should have no problems with burn. If you can't manage burn but still want to play a Kineticist, take the Overwhelming Soul archetype.

Like I say, you can reduce the Burn cost, and good for you if it doesn't cost you Burn, but the Burn damage is still a problem... because there's no way to solve it.

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DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

I wish people would stop with this fallacy.

A kineticist does not burn himself MORE with each point of burn. He burns himself proportionally the same. A 20th level kineticist with toughness 24 Con and FCB in HP takes 20 points of nonlethal damage.

Occult Adventures, Kineticist, Burn, Page 11 wrote:
For each point of burn she accepts, a kineticist takes 1 point of nonlethal damage per character level.

You take 20 points of non-lethal damage if your 20th-level Kineticist Burns ONE point. THAT same 20 points gets multiplied by the number of Burn you accept.


Out of approximately 298 HP (assuming average HP) (6.7% of their total hit points)

At level 12 with 20 Con, FCB and toughness a kineticist has 141.5 hp. (8.48%)

And that's assuming you aren't even going for maximum Con to boost DCs and the like.

You only take in account if only ONE Burn point is accepted, when many people will accept more.

Here's something: at 16th, if you have taken 112 points of damage (7 x 16 = 112), you get Elemental Overflow's last tier of abilities. So basically, be a third or even half-exhausted to bolster.


As an overall percentage of your health, you either stay around the same or slightly improve at withstanding burn damage.

Then you take into account Internal Buffer, Elemental Overflow (which increases your max and current HP even further) infusion specialisation, metakinetic specialization and master and Supercharge to reduce burn costs so that it becomes incredibly unlikely that you'll take Burn at all unless it's an emergency and really want to Nova.

Or... you just happen to have a weapon or any item in your hand that you cannot drop for some reason... such as trying to blast opponents while climbing a ladder or rope...

Granted, you probably will spend most of your time away from combat and blast opponents. Even then, if you can reduce the Burn cost of infusions, you'll probably rely on Kinetic Blade / Fist / Whip to attack in melee than drawing your weapon.

It doesn't change the fact that Gathering Power requires both hands to be free... and that isn't something to avoid either...

So please stop spouting this lie, it's mathematically incorrect.

I'm not lying, the Burn damage does get higher and higher as you level up.

It's still pretty dumb that that's NO WAY to avoid this aside from resting. It's like they made the class VULNERABLE in every way possible to Burn.

- No spell to remove Burn, even at 8 or 9th Level.
- Full night's rest required, pretty much questions if a Ring of Substenance's 2 hours of rest works normally.
- No feat to reduce Burn damage, even if a high Constitution and/or Level prerequisite.
- No skill use to resist Burn damage
- No magic item to reduce Burn damage

Look, it's all good and all to reduce the Burn cost, but the Burn damage is still a problem.

Melkiador wrote:
JiCi wrote:
The Kineticist exhausts himself MORE as he levels up. Shouldn't that be the complete opposite? Shouldn't he be MORE resiliant to Burn as he GROWS stronger?

This was already pointed out very often in the playtest. Now the annoying part to me is that there are ways to eliminate the burn for your blasts, but not for your utility.

Burn HP really should have been equal to 1/2 your kineticist level, with a minimum of 1. Then the cost would remain relevant throughout your career, without it feeling like you are getting worse at burn.

Well... I feel like both the Blast Talents and the Infusion Talents are the bread and butter of the Kineticist, similar to the How Warlock's Eldritch Blast took the majority of the class's features.

Also, the Utility Talents HAVE a reason to Burn the Kineticist, because flavor-wise, they DEMAND the Kineticist an effort to maintain the Talent active. THAT's actual physical exhaustion. Then again... Utility Talents either are Burn-free or cost 1 Burn point. You're not gonna demolish yourself with those anyway.

Tels wrote:
These don't work as options as the Kineticist needs some sort of limiting factor. Stop and think about what you could do if you could heal Burn by any method. You could max out your Kinetic Defense every single day, and also have free healing (Kinetic Heal) for the entire party. Someone like a Telekinetic would benefit a lot from having free, maximized defense as his is basically a regenerating force field of hit points.

That they must have a limiting factor, I understand.

That they DON'T have SOMETHING to counter or reduce that factor, I do NOT understand.

The Kineticist exhausts himself MORE as he levels up. Shouldn't that be the complete opposite? Shouldn't he be MORE resiliant to Burn as he GROWS stronger?

A 20th-level Kineticist spending 6 Burn points gets hit by a whopping 120 points of non-lethal damage. Provided that he didn't get hit before that, he could easily collapse from exhaustion in one single attack.

Yeah, sure, TOTALLY make sense to me ¬_¬;

Having a Talent that converts energy damage into Burn healing... isn't as powerful as you think. A pyrokineticist... is STILL gonna be screwed when fighting a red dragon unless he has the Cold Blast or any non-Fire Blast. Sure, you can tank the breath weapon... but you can't damage the creature that breathed it with your own abilities.

The Medium is good as being versatile. Sure, you can pick the same Spirit every day over and over, but if you know IN ADVANCE what problems you're gonna face, you can pick another spirit to fulfill the needs.

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"Methods to fix the Kineticist", huh? Ok, here are some ideas:

- a feat that allows Kineticists to heal Burn damage via spells.

- a feat that allow to reduce the Burn damage by 50%.

- a feat that allows Kineticists to apply other Metamagic feats to their Blasts. (Ok, we have Empower, Maximize, Qucking and even Twinned (3.5 feat), what about the rest?)

- Separate area-altering Infusions Wild Talents into its own category, such as "Shape Wild Talents".

- Make each and every one of them available to every blast.

- Add upgrades as separate talents, such as having the Spray and Torrents Talents being upgraded with longer range.

- Have Draining Infusion and Elemental Grip work against SOMETHING when using Aether. Yeah... that isn't working well for this energy :S.

- Have new Talents:
* Acid Blast (Simple; Earth)
* Positive Energy Blast (Composite; Fire)
* Negative Energy Blast (Composite; Water; reasoning being Water is associated to life... and the dark abysses)
* Sonic Blast (Simple; Air)
* GREATER Force Blast (Composite; Aether; deals Composite Blast damage)
* Poison Blast (Composite; Earth; Acid or Metal Blast required; Some metals are toxic, so...)
* Light Blast (Composite; Fire; damage similar to Searing Light)
* Darkness Blast (Composite; Water; damage similar to Searing Light)
* Alignment Blast (Composite; Any blast; dealing damage to a specific alignment)
* Bane Blast (Composite; Any blast; dealing damage to a specific creature type)
* Blinding/Deafening/Frightening/Exhausting/Staggering Blast (Composite; Any blast)
* Conductive Blast (Infusion; Any blast basically, transfering Blast damage to a single melee attack, be manufactured or natural, or be melee or ranged.)

- Have MORE Defense Talents:
* a Talent that allows to absorb the Kineticist's primary energy to heal Burn damage. (Yes, I'm harping on this a lot, because I think it's just plain stupid that there's NO way to heal Burn damage.)
* a Talent that grants energy resistance, as simple as that. Sure, Aerial, Cold and Heat Adaptation do that, but... they're dependent on Burn, not your level.
* a Talent that grants energy immunity.

- Have MORE Utility Talents:
* Technically speaking, pick a spell related to an element, make it a Talent, call it a day.

Devastating Infusion just alters the regular Kinetic Blast when you wish to; you still can use the Blast at its full power (just with one attack) or the Kinetic Blade at its full power (with the proper Burn cost).

To me, it seems that the Devastating Infusion trades damage adn burn cost for a flurry-like ability.

Aaaaw... no Ninja tricks about getting the Kineticist Blast and Talents?

Come on, that would have been nice :P

Dragon78 wrote:
A group of outsiders that are physical manifestations of human emotions(joy, fear, anger, love, hate, disgust, despair, etc.). Maybe they would be incorporeal or at least have the ability to posses( or merge with) living intelligent creatures. Also regardless of the emotion they grant both positive and negative effects based on there emotion type to there host(and possibly everyone else). Maybe they could come from the dimension of dreams or some kind of mindscape.

Sounds familiar :P

UsagiTaicho wrote:
I think they left out those because they are all hybrid classes, which are kinda sorta multiclasses already. But this looks good to me.

True, but they do bring new class features as well.

What if I want to have arcanist exploits, investigator talents or warpriest blessings? I... kinda can't right now with the Variant Multiclassing rule.

I'm pretty sure that it's just to swap feature A for feature B, but... still, it needs more tinkering.

One more thing:

If you guys want lycanthropes, we're... gonna run into several problems.

1) The book's space: we need not one, but TWO stat blocks, for both the humanoid and hybrid forms. While the first codex had 2 stat blocks on the same page for some NPCs, that was in expanse of flavor text.

2) The system currently has 8 lycanthropes, so it could be that only 1 per species would be presented. Not a bad thing, but it does limit GMs when it comes to scale encounters.

3) The first codex limited itself to 6 pages for NPC stats... and we have 8 lycanthropes.

4) Good luck picking the base creatures for the template. There is a lot to choose one. They did for the ogrekin in the Inner Seas Monster Codex, but 4 is smaller than 6 or 8.

I do see several solutions for that:
- Have 8 pages anyway, maybe in exchange of 2 pages for the additional rules. The Simple Class Template doesn't need to be rewritten a 2nd time.
- Pick the Skinwalker instead of the actual lycanthrope, saving one stat block per NPC.
- Pick only ONE lycanthrope. We could have 6 to 8 werewolves (or werewolf-kin skinwalkers), making it more focused. Beside, we're talking about a wolf pack, basically the easiest group to detail.
- Pick all 8 lycanthropes, one per species, but in close challenge rating, like only have 2 to 4 points in difference.

As for the monster, reprint the Silverblood Lycanthrope template, that would be good ^_^

Dale McCoy Jr wrote:

Today is the last full day to get the Book of Heroic Races: Advanced Compendium—Work in Progress PDF subscription at the special early price. Tomorrow, the price is going up to the price of the full Compendium PDF (US$19.99).

Download it today to get it at this lower price.

Huh... why?

Do you plan on releasing the official complete booklet soon?

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- Tengus
Great race, asian-flavor NPC potential and a new breed of raven.

- Kitsunes
Popular race, possibility to have a NPC with 9 tails, yokai ideas

- Dryads
Can be a potential threat/encounter (if an Hamadryad isn't :P), sylvan NPC ideas... and have a walking/animated oak tree to allow a dryad to physically move BEYOND her selected area

- Dark ones (creepers, stalkers, slayers, callers, dancers)
Lots of subtypes to cover, need some background info, can have more subtypes, like a brute/soldier kind of Dark Ones.

- Hill giants
Lowest CR giant, thus more common, iconic giant, can have a more powerful variant

- Stone giants
Iconic giant, non-evil one as well, can have mountain-bred monsters to complement

- Harpies
Iconic mythological creature, great villains, bird-like variant ideas

- Merfolks
Common race for underwater setting, need more exposure, fish variants aplenty

- Locathahs
*see merfolks above*

- Tritons
*see merfolks above*

- Catfolks
Popular race since B3, could use a community, cat variants

- Shaes
Obscure race, connection to shadows that needs to be expanded

- Tanukis
Potential for a community

- Changelings
All-female race that needs more exposure, connection to hags and witchcraft, male variant ideas

- Gathlains
A fey race with wings, sylvan/fey ideas

- Shobhads
Extraterrestrial race, similar treatment to giants, aliens ideas

- Trox
Underground race, servitude/freedom mentatility, beetles, more beetles

- Wayangs
Weird/obscure race for asian setting, connection to shadows like shaes

- Wyrwoods
A created race, artificial/sylvan mix, augmentations ideas :P

- Wyvarans
Kobold/wyvern crossbreed, more brutish than the kobolds, drake crossbreed variants

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