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JiCi's page

1,863 posts. 3 reviews. 1 list. No wishlists.


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Cyrad wrote:
I don't think you understand my first point. Combat is the entire point of being a brute, but the archetype forces you to transform back to your non-combat form after every single fight. This can be crippling or tedious when you're going to be having lots of fights one after another.

Yeah, I got it, it gets tiring after a while :P

Cyrad wrote:

I studied the brute carefully and it honestly doesn't look as bad as most think. It's still a poorly designed archetype. However, you don't really address the major two issues I have with it:

1) The archetype prohibits you from using your social identity for combat. However, the brute also forces you to transform back to social after every fight. It's an antipattern. You can only do combat as your brute form, but it only lasts until the end of the fight. Then you have to waste time resting and then transforming back. This gets very tedious during a dungeoncrawl or a combat-heavy adventure. They should have designed it so that when you succeed your Will save to not pummel your allies, you can choose whether or not to change back or stay in the form.

2) You're super squishy as a brute. You have a d8 Hit Die. You take like...a -3 penalty to AC. You can't wear armor until later levels. And unlike a barbarian or an alchemist with mutagen, you don't get any natural armor or Constitution bonuses to boost your hit points.

1) Well, when you're an enraged hulking monster, I... don't think you're gonna resort to social skills in that form :P I get the omittion, but on the other hand, it fits with the concept.

2) You're right... but maybe you can go for bracers of armor, amulets of natural armor and rings of protection instead of armors. Then again, at 6th level, you take no penalty for wearing magic armor when "hulking", so it's still pretty early.

- A Combat Feat (tree if needed) to use iterative attacks with natural weapons

- A Metamagic Feat to make spells harder to identify, because they look nothing like the original

- A Combat Feat to strike multiple times with a wand, albeit higher charge costs when doing so

- A ride armor/mech armor/giant riding robot armor suit, similar to the Steam Armor in the WoW D20 RPG.

- Clockwork arm variants to finally be detailled:
* arm that can transform into a firearm (that's mentioned in Magical Marketplace)
* arm that can double as an autograpnel (Bionic Commando style)
* arm that can transform into a light/one-handed weapon

- The equivalent of specters from Forgotten Realms, which were wands/rods that could hold up to 6th-level spells and more than one.

- Item sets, such as Regalias (crown, specter, orb)

- Items that can allow iterative attacks with natural weapons (gauntlets for claws, mask for bite, etc.)

- Magical siege weapons

- More weapon and armor qualities related to acid and sonic; seriously, those two are ALWAYS left out for some reason.

Brute (Vigilante) (Ultimate Intrigue)

Brute Talents
Lucid Regression (Ex): The Brute has trained himself to better control his Brute Form after heated battles. The Will Save DC to avoid attacking allies and bystanders, after all enemies are gone, is reduced by 10. At 18th level, the Brute doesn't need to make a save anymore to avoid attacking others. A brute must be at least 10th level to select this talent.

This is probably the most problematic aspect of the Brute, being the equivalent of the Frenzied Berserker. Unlike the Wild Rager archetype, this state is not similar to a confusion effect. With this talent, which is totally optional to the player, the Brute won't cause to kill other PCs.

Raging Brute Powers (Ex or Su): The Brute can tap into his inner rage to gain extraordinary powers. He may select a Rage Power from the Barbarian class list, using his Vigilante level as his Barbarian level. He must have the required level to select certain powers.

Ok... the Brute is a raging viligante... without any rage powers... Yeah, I think it's weird... This new talent solve this. Again, talent = optional.

Brutish Strength (Ex) The Brute has learned to bulk up his form and tapping into his inner rage. Upon assuming his vigilante identity, the Brute gains gains a +4 enhancement bonus to his Strength and Constitution. A brute must be at least 12th level to select this talent.

I get that it might be too powerful to grant size bonuses to stats when assuming the Brute Form, but it shouldn't have been left out either. This talent grants enhancement bonuses as an option.

Monstrous Wielder (Ex) The Brute uses his immense strength to lift and wield objects that no person would be able to. He can wield weapons up to one size larger without penalty from wielding inappropriate sized weapons. The weapon category (light, one-handed, two-handed) is not affected. For instance, the Brute using a Huge Greatclub would be using it a two-handed weapon. A brute must have the Sizing Equipment talent before selecting this talent.

This is another ability that suits the Brute pretty well, so I've made it into a talent.

Ok, the rules are simple:
1) Pick an archetype
2) Fix it... and explain the modifications
3) Keep it balance and in theme with the concept
4) Explain why you fixed it

Two-Weapon Warrior (Fighter) (Advanced Player's Guide)

Improved Balance (Ex): At 11th level, the attack penalties for fighting with two weapons are reduced by –1 for a two-weapon warrior. The penalties are reduced by an additional –1 for every four levels after 11th. This ability replaces armor training 3.

The wording was awkward to the point that wielding 2 one-handed weapons was... pointless, because this ability and Prefect Balance do the exact same thing without reducing the penalty. With this, you get up to a -2 reduction to attack rolls when TWF, regardless of what kind of weapon you have.

Perfect Training (Ex): At 15th, a two-weapon warrior can apply any weapon specific feat for its primary weapon to its off-hand weapon, such as Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization. This ability replaces armor training 4.

This is to replace Perfect Balance that got merged with Improved Balance. Also, this is an ability I've seen a few times, so...


Ok, what archetype(s) can YOU fix ;) ?

Goth Guru wrote:

An alchemist monster like Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde.

The human side becomes more and more pacifist while the monster becomes more violent. The unfortunate discovery of fracturing mutation causes them to have an inherent repeating mutation that stacks with another mutagen, which will the same type. All the bombs and extracts the alchemist prepared will be abused by the violent personality.

Sounds like a combination between the Ragechemist and Master Chymist.

Rysky wrote:
Okay, that offsets it slightly, but most group don't start at level 20, they start at level 1.

True, but for a DC 20 Will save, you can lean on a high Wisdom score, the Iron Will feat and the Aid Other action. Just with the last two, that can be a bonus +8 to your save (assuming that you have 3 allies). I know it's a pain in the you-know-where, but it's not like you can't crank your Wisdom score from the get-go, depending on your stat rolls.

Squiggit wrote:
tl;dr Brute Vigilantes aren't even that good at pretending to be the hulk and even if you want to play one you should probably just go dex also why does this archetype have so many downsides eugh.

I feel like you should rank up your Wisdom first and foremost, to avoid berserking on your allies.

There are ways to help:

- The Brute has +6 for a Will Save by 20th level, because of Brutish Fortitude.
- Iron Will adds +2 to Will Saves
- A Cloak of Resistance adds up to +5 to saves
- A defiant weapon would help, up to +5 for non-epic levels. However... 1) it would have to be a gauntlet to take advantage of the unarmed strike and 2) it's a bit unclear if defiant would apply to that condition. Is it a mind-affecting effect?
- Good Wisdom score, say 20, for +5.

6 + 2 + 5 + 5 + 5 = +23 for a Will Save by 20th level... and you would need to roll 7 or higher.

Furthermore, if you're in a party of 4, you included, the other 3 can Aid Other for +6 to the Will Save.

23 + 6 = +29 for a Will Save by 20th level... and you would need to roll 2 or higher.

Yes, it's expensive to the extreme, but if it's to avoid one-shotting your own party, I'd say that the investment is worth it.

Couldn't some of the suggestions be converted into archetypes instead? I feel like some do.

MMCJawa wrote:
Mechagamera wrote:
Thus B6 will be the intrigue bestiary.
Assuming we get one this year, which I am skeptical on.

B3 was released in 2011, B4 in 2013 and B5 in 2015... I think that they rearranged their schedule to have a Bestiary at least 2 years apart now (2017). We'll probably get either a 2nd Monster Codex or NPC Codex in the meantime... which I hope we get.

As for the theme, while we did get "Intrigue", "Horror" is coming out this summer, so... maybe these twos themes will get them more inspiration than only either one.

Four Horsemen—Famine wrote:
JiCi wrote:
stuff about the original French water dragon
I say you get the book, build the mythological creature, and show it off on our page. I think that would be fun.

I'll see what I can do ^_^

My review for KoP3 is up on Paizo ^_^

chibiamy wrote:
Something that can play to Vigilantes?


Give us an AP that puts the PCs at odds with a Vigilante, or even a TEAM of vigilantes.

Would B6 have an overall theme to it? I do recall that B3 had a LOT of oriental creatures.

Planar Adventures would be nice, so we could get more info on the planes.

Four Horsemen — Pestilence wrote:
JiCi wrote:

Well, my point was that the Tarrasque started as an invincible killing machine, then it got upgraded to Spawn of Rovagug status... and THEN you guys layered an even more powerful template on top of it.

I've seen madness before, but this? Are you guys D&D fans who got annoyed by the introduction of Kaijus in B4, so you wanted to keep the Tarrasque up to speed :P ?

Might as well strap a huge laser cannon on...

And it is a excellent point. What we are trying to explain is that we didn't set out with the idea of making the King of All Tarrasques, for the sake of having the biggest creature ever. We did it because we were testing out the monster builder system, and needed to push it to the absolute limits. That meant, making a creature that was CR 34 and Colossal. If we were going to do that, we might as well make it the tarrasque since being the biggest scariest thing in the Bestiary is its deal. If we were going to make all of these monsters as part of the playtesting process, we might as well include them in the final book.

It is also important to stress that there were no templates applied to the monster, and it was created from the ground up using the Talented Bestiary system. You could just as easily make a CR 2 Small-sized baby tarrasque, a CR 15 Huge-sized intelligent tarrasque with acidic skin and a prismatic spray gaze, or a CR 20-something tarrasque that pretty closely resembled the original.

Oh, don't worry, I'm not complaining about it one bit; I'm just baffled that you guys just picked one of the OP creatures in D&D history... and made it even MORE OP than usual XD

Although... one major complain I do about the Tarrasque is that it wasn't based on the original mythological French creature, which was a six-legged demonic humanoid-headed turtle. If the D&D version was named differently, I wouldn't even have noticed, but now, it's like a huge "lost in translation" problem :P

Owen KC Stephens wrote:
JiCi wrote:
Armageddon Tarrasque? As if we needed something THAT devastating O_O

The awesome thing isn;t that we made this. It's that the system CAN make this.

Don;t need an armageddon tarrasque? Great, glad to hear it. :) But if your game DOES need one, or a similarly-horrifying kraken, ancient red dragon, colossal undead, demon lords, gelatinous city block, or whatever, this book will let you put it together. Fast and easy.

Four Horsemen — Pestilence wrote:

Just as Owen said! The monsters are a "bonus" that came from extensively playtesting the system. We really put it through its paces, so we could find any holes. That resulted in hundred of monsters, adding to the book's value and giving examples of what the system can accomplish.

The armageddon tarrasque specifically got to be the biggest scariest thing in the book (at Colossal-size CR 34), fitting with the tarrasque's tradition. The core tarrasque is no slouch but there are now lots of nastier things statted out. This one was designed by the God of Devils to act as a dead man's switch, tearing through hell, heaven, and everything between.

GM Rednall,

The system is hard to stump, but not impossible. You can certainly make any monster, but might not find the perfect ability to give it. Like trying to find the best feat or archetype for a PC concept. What we are hoping is that if the Kickstarter is really successful, I can keep adding new bestiaries and other sources to the system, with each one exponentially increasing the potential creatures you can build.

Well, my point was that the Tarrasque started as an invincible killing machine, then it got upgraded to Spawn of Rovagug status... and THEN you guys layered an even more powerful template on top of it.

I've seen madness before, but this? Are you guys D&D fans who got annoyed by the introduction of Kaijus in B4, so you wanted to keep the Tarrasque up to speed :P ?

Might as well strap a huge laser cannon on top of its shell while you're it... although that would be awesome XD

BTW Owen, making a bigger badder meaner version of a kraken, dragon, undead, demon or gelatinous cube is... pretty much "run-of-the-mill" stuff these days. But so far, not many people touched on the Tarrasque because it's already that destructive.

Armageddon Tarrasque? As if we needed something THAT devastating O_O

Dragon78 wrote:
Pathfinder has it's own solar system of pulpy goodness that I hope one day will get explored(hardcover book style) and I hope I am still alive and playing Pathfinder when that happens:)

Yeah, my point exactly. Thing is though that Castrovel has been the the planet with the most mentions throughout the books and booklets.

I dunno if they could instead go with player companions or Golarion-exclusive booklets for each planet, but there is a LOT of materials for these worlds... aside from a general look in Distant Worlds.

Come to think of it, I believe that the planes are more campaign-neutral than the planets, so "Planar" would be more appropriate for a general Paizo book, while "Planetary" should be reserved for the Golarion setting.

Still, the Astral Plane, Ethereal Plane, Shadow Plane, the 6 Inner Elemental Planes and the 9 Outer Planes should be enough to cover a single book.

Dragon78 wrote:
I wonder what the next themed book will be.

I'd like to see either Planar Adventures or Interplanetary Adventures.

Although... hmmm... for either book, I feel like it would be hard to write down everything you should know about a plane or a planet, in addition of any related content in general.

For planes alone, It has taken WotC 2 books to get everything equally presented, with Manual of the Planes and the Planar Handbook.

I'll put it this way: did you like having NPC monsters in Monster Manuals 4 and 5? If not, Monster Codex is for you.

Yeah, bascially, the Monster Codex takes a creature, mostly a tribal one, and offers multiple NPC stats for it. You have a basic society ready to use instead of you planning everything in advance hoping the players won't skip it.

That... happened to me. I planned several encounters inside an enemy camp for the PCs... until they sneak passed every single one of them. I do praise their approach (no, seriously, I do), but... if I have gotten the Codex sooner, I wouldn't have spent time making NPCs on my own.

On a sidenote, the Codex has monsters for their most roles. You're not gonna find an ogre tribe led by a mind flayer (or similar mind-controlling creature) or a lizardfolk tribe living in the jungle and using wasps as guard creatures.

Ok, Ultimate Intrigue does address a few things about roleplaying villains, mostly on the political/social side of a game.

I dunno, I feel something is missing, but I cannot put my finger on it...

Whoops... I forgot to tell you that I got my copy, and I'll be reviewing it soon :P

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Going back to the vigilante, I've noticed that... every single archetype presented only alters the vigilante identity; none of them changes the social identity, at all.

So... how about archetypes that modify the social identity and leave the vigilante identity intact?

Deadmanwalking wrote:
Really, Vigilante should work just fine in any game that isn't a pure dungeon crawl, and they aren't too bad even there.

How about if the vigilante was a class with togglable abilities? That is essentially what is the vigilante identity: one time you're a civilian, the other time you're a fighter, as in you're fighting, not the actual class.

For roleplay purposes, the social identity is perfect for diplomatic approaches, negotications and information gathering, only to use this information when donning your vigilante identity.

BTW, "dungeon crawling" into a goblin's lair can still provide the vigilante with a decent challenge. Same goes with infiltrating a hobgoblin war camp to rescue prisoners of war.

You... just need to replace a modern underground complex with caves, camps, forests and stone walls :P

Hmmm... if you're going to replace the ninja trick that kineticist class features, wouldn't it be easier to simply make those as ninja tricks?

Kinetic Blast (regular), Composite Blast (master), Infusions (regular or master), Wild Talents (regular or master), these can all be converted into ninja tricks, using Ki points instead of Burn points, as you wrote down.

Here's something worth asking: How do most players see "horror" these days? Should the book focus on "horrifying/terrifying" elements or "disturbing/depraved" elements?

Should GMs try to scare players... or should they make them feel uneasy?

I'm asking this because the horror genre kinda got diluded over the years. Back then, it was all about scaring people with frightening imagery, but these days, it's... almost attending a biology class, as the "horror" factor is more gory than scary.

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Just recently got the booklet, and I'm really liking it ^_^

I would like to know if there is any plan to release some sort of enhancement product to it. I'd like to know how would the material here would mesh with the Avanced Class Guide, Occult Adventures and Ultimate Intrigue, mostly for the new classes. You could make the same with the new dragons that have been added in recent Bestiaries as well.

The thing is that a Taninim Kineticist... would work rather nicely. Hey, if they cannot have at-will breath weapons, the Kineticist is a no-brainer as an alternative. (BTW, I know why breath weapons have limited uses, for balancing, I'm not complaining about it one bit.)

One problem I do have... is the size adjustment... which isn't a general option, because you can only grow in size as a Draconic Hero or a Draconic Examplar. Yeah... I would have loved a feat to allow you to grow one size or a racial trait to start as a Medium dragon instead of Small.

But yeah, really love the booklet, and I hope that it could be expanded ^_^

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Few things I'd love to see in this book:
- How to make each monster type scary? Sure, appearances and fear effects can work for undeads and dragons, but what about animals, vermins, oozes and monstrous humanoids? I think it would have to go with their actions more than their abilities.

- How to hook players in? Look, you cannot have too many campaign hooks in Pathfinder, you just can't, so feel free to throw us as many bones as you guys can come up with. Pick a region, pick a plot and pick a twist. Occult Adventures and its related products often deal with horror-themed adventures, so I'm begging you to cover that in this book ^_^

- How to expand occult rituals? While the current rules do a decent job, I feel like some elements are missing. What if I want to summon a monster? What's the Check DC Modifier according the monster's CR? Fiend summoning is often associated with horror, so... Ok, granted, you cannot have every single outcome of a ritual, but I'm sure that you expand the rules.

- Will there be new monsters? You guys talking about new templates, but will new monsters be added? Qlippoths and Sahkils have a horrifying appearance; there are more Fleshwarps that are rumored to exist; Neh-thalggus are gruesome aliens (also detailled in Iron Gods); Undeads come in all shapes and sizes; Lycanthropes are numerous depending on the animal selected (vulture, seal, squid, snake. So yeah, I'd like to see new monsters in addition of templates.

- How to make a scary villain? Speak for itself ;) Maybe you could throw in popular villainous archetypes in the mix, like the stalker, murderer, insanity victim and such.

- How to make good-aligned creatures scary? Yeah, you've read it correctly. If I want to make a paladin of Iomedae, a silver dragon or a trumpet archon scary, how do I proceed? Sure, "horror" is often associated with grotesque appearance and evil, but fear is also keyed to that, so yeah... how to make a paladin scary with guidelines would be nice ;)

Nightterror wrote:
All catogories are pretty well formed.

I swear that I can count 2 to 3 more times the number of animals, outsiders, dragons, humanoids, monstruous humanoids, magical beasts, vermins, constructs, undead and aberrations than feys, oozes and plants.

Milo v3 wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
I hope so. The big issue with Kineticists though is that kineticist material tends to take up a lot of page space and can't be used with any other class.
It wouldn't be a problem if they did what 3.5e did with invocations and put them in the spells chapter, rather than trying to fit them in the tiny end sections of Class/Archetype chapters. Since spell chapters seem to have more space for niche effects things than a class/archetype chapter which as far as I can tell is very tightly restricted in how much space it can take up so they can fit in as much as they can.

Didn't Ultimate Intrigue add Wild Talents in the other archetypes section? Same went with Occult Origins. It could be how they add new talents.

Well... the creators DID tell me that the Kineticist was inspired by horror films like Carrie and Firestarter. However, I... can't see how they would make the class horrifying.

Sound (for screaming effects)? Flesh and bones (for a necromantic feel)? Poison?

I could see talents that add a fear effect to a kinetic blast, but as a whole? I have no idea...

Hmmm... question to all: is there any type that deserves more creatures? I'm not talking about sub-categories, like demons and devils, but actual types, like animals, humanoids, vermins, etc.

That was mentionned above a few times, we could use more feys in a more widespread CR range. Same goes with oozes, which seem to have the least amount of entires since the first Bestiary.

In fact, did we even GET a category of oozes? Feys at least have gotten the Gremlins. BTW, no, "ooze", as a name, isn't a category, come on now.

Yeah, so after researching the index, Feys, Oozes and Plants have the least amounts of entries.

Dragon78 wrote:
A fey summoning archetype for druids would be interesting.

The Fey Caller in Ultimate Intrigue might be what you are looking for... despite being an Unchained Summoner archetype.

However, the major issue I see with this archetype idea... is that feys aren't very widespread, let alone having a wide range of CRs. Unless you can tag the Fey Creature template on existing monsters that appear in the Summon Nature's Ally lists, you're going to be short on actual feys here...

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Gwendolyn O'Callan wrote:

Hello everyone!

I just wondered, why is the changeling so small? The fluff text suggests that she is always "tall and graceful" , so why is an changeling, which size you choose to roll, so small compared to a normal female human? Is this a mistake?


Hmmm... a Human Female's base height is 4,5 ft, while a Changeling's is 5,2 ft. I get that the Changeliung's maximum height is 5,10 ft, but... kinda rare to get a Human Female at 6,1 ft (assuming you've rolled 2 10s).

Then again... only the Night Hag is Large in size... and it's not even a usual hag, as it's an Outsider, not a Monstruous Humanoid, in addition of the Changeling not having racial options related to the Night Hag.

I'd like more talents for the Vigilante's archetypes, such as:

- A Talent to gain ability adjustments based on size
- A Talent to gain rage powers
- A Talent to reduce the DC to avoid attacking your allies

- A Talent to use blood for spell components
- A Talent to use blood to alter appearance based on age
- A Talent to use blood as a mutagen-like substance

- A Talent to select any deed
- A Talent to make a "Daring Act" to renew one use of any Talent
- A Talent to shoot in melee

Magical Child
- A Talent to apply a familiar archetype (Familiar Folio) to the familiar, in any form
- A Talent to add spells related to familiars in the Child's spell list
- A Talent to select Eidolon evolutions

Mounted Fury
- A Talent to gain a cavalier's challenges
- A Talent to gain an order's ability
- A Talent to grant the Vahana template to the mount

- A Talent to gain knacks, based on the implement schools he has
- A Talent to gain the ability to use summoning circles
- A Talent to gain a school's resonant power

- A Talent to gain Spellstrike
- A Talent to gain Spell Combat
- A Talent to gain a magus's arcana or an arcanist's exploit

Wildsoul (Arachnid)
- A Talent to shoot web bullets
- A Talent to create weapons made of webbing
- A Talent to create shields and armors made of webbing

Wildsoul (Falconine)
- A Talent to gain attack modifiers while airborne
- A Talent to gain a bird companion
- A Talent to gain monster feats, like Flyby Attack and Snatch

Wildsoul (Ursine)
- A Talent to gain grapple modifiers
- A Talent to use claws as iterative weapons, similar to cat gloves
- A Talent to gain a polar bear's white fur

- A Talent to gain a warpriest's sacred weapon
- A Talent to gain an inquisitor's judgment
- A Talent to gain an inquisitor's bane/slayer ability

Speaking of new archetypes for the Vigilante:
- a telekineticist, mixed with a Psychic's discipline
- an alchemist, mixed with Investigator talents
- a bard, mixed with a Skald's songs

Just like that, throw one idea (per post) for an AP, feel free to give details about locations, premises, NPCs, plot twists, etc.

[Tentative] Title: Nocturnal Alibis
Location: Any metropolis/cosmopolitan area
- (First AP) The PCs arrive at the scene of a murder.
- They are asked for help by an Investigator or Inquisitor.
- They solve the murder case, but there is something more that they find at the culprit's hideout at the end.

- (Second AP) Another murder scene is discovered. However, the PCs run into a Vigilante, or perhaps a GROUP of Vigilantes, while investigating.
- The connection between the victims is rather fine, but isn't much relevant yet.
- The PCs might be interested by the Vigilante's actions.

- (Third AP) Yet another murder scene has to be investigated, the victim being a NPC from the first AP. This time around, the PCs get to meet the Vigilante's social identity to their ignorance (or the Vigilante's group leader). The group... kinda gets into a fight with the Viligante.
- The PCs and the Vigilante try on their respective sides to solve the case, but end up stepping in each other's territory.

- (Fourth AP) The PCs either assist to a trial from one of the culprits... or end up BEING the culprits due to the Vigilante's actions. They have to defend themselves or might have to speak as witnesses.
- The culprit's associates are scheming something else in the background, such as exposing the Vigilante as the murderer, or freeing the culprit on trial.
- Witnesses have to be defended, the jury can be manipulated, a lot of influence can be done to falsify the trial.

- (Fifth AP) The PCs and Vigilante(s) have to team up to solve yet another mystery, but this time, the stakes are higher. NPCs can't be trusted anymore, the PCs' reputation take a hit and only the Vigilante can help them out, as he does need their help as well.
- The team get their hands on the second-in-command of the one who has orchestrated the murders since the beginning.
- The team discovers something even dire that has been planned in the shadows.

- (Sixth AP) The PCs and Vigilante arrive in time and save the next victim. They do investigate on their own to trace the assassin back to his lair.
- The team discovers the main villain, who is the investigator's/inquisitor's assistant. Basically, the assistant wnated to take revenge on the victims due to being ostrisized.
- Furthermore, s/he used a drop of each victim's blood for a summoning ritual. S/he wants to level the city in order to complete his/her vengeance.
- The summoning ritual can conjure a high-level fiend. Whether or not it actually crosses the planes depends on the PCs' actions.
- If the ritual is foiled, the PCs have the choice to kill the assistant or to arrest him/her. The Vigilante can decide otherwise.
- In the end, the Vigilante can become a helpful source of intel in the city, but any of the assistant's minions could come back with their own agendas.


Yeah... guess which Pathfinder book I got my inspiration from :P

But, yeah, a mix between a d20 adventure and a modern mystery comic book series, it could be a nice run ^_^

Anyway, I've pitched my idea, what about yours?

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The Golux wrote:

It's the alignment of your vigilante identity that matters, but yes beheaded are usually for evil casters.

I think the "Expectation" for the level 3 change is that your familiar becomes a celestial/fiendish/axiomatic/anarchic/counterpoised version of itself, but you don't have to do that.

Yeah, TBH, there isn't much of a choice here...

1st: regular familiar
3rd: aligned familiar
5th: elemental... that looks a bit like your familiar's initial form
7th: You're... pretty much short on ideas here...

- Rat, Dire Rat, Elemental, Ratling
- Cat, [Celestial] Cat, Elemental, either Cat Sith, Dweomercat Cub or Silvanshee agathion
- Lizard, [Celestial] Lizard, Elemental, eitehr Fearie, Tidepool or Pseudodragon

Kinda hard to keep a theme here :P

Furthermore, before you ask, no, you cannot apply any of the familiar archetypes here, because they cannot be applied to Improved Familiars. Sure, your initial familiar could get one, but it would lose it if it changes form.

Ssalarn wrote:
Ventnor wrote:
Weirdly enough, a Brute is also less scary in his vigilante form than he is in his social form because he takes a -2 to all Charisma skill checks in vigilante form. This includes Intimidate.
It'll be a net gain of +2 against humanoid opponents in most instances since you get a +4 bonus to Intimidate checks if you are larger than your target. So, technically not less scary, but not as much more scary as you might expect.

That's technically for another debate, because the Brute, as well as the other Vigilante archetypes, could all use more unique talents. For the Brute only:

- A talent to gain size adjustments for physical stats.
- A talent to gain rage powers.
- A talent to wield oversized weapons.
- A [high-level] talent to lower the Will save DC/to give a bonus to it.

Anyway, there are ways to increase the Brute's Will save bonus, I've listed a few of them a while back. Then there's the Calm Emotions spell, which I have no clue how it would affect a Brute. Finally, and that's a new point, is the confusion-like effect at the end of an encounter a mind-affecting effect?

Yes, you cannot transform into a Brute if you are somehow immune to fatigue, but what about mind-affecting effects? The drawback is strikingly similar to a confusion effect, so... do resistances and immunities affect a Brute? If so, how?

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Samasboy1 wrote:
HOWEVER, I think the line in Brute form "Furthermore, the brute cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skill (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration (such as spellcasting)," could EASILY be considered to disallow changing back to Social identity as a task that requires "patience or concentration."

Well, shoot...

Point taken...

Okay... so he can't turn back to normal on his own.

Rysky wrote:
JiCi wrote:
Starbuck_II wrote:

Yes, this will stop Brute from attacking you guys, but not revert you back.

Perfect, we found the way to protect the allies without needing to turn back, yay!

A Brute reverts back to his social identity once he calms down, just like if he would have succeeded his Will Save.

Without traits, it takes 1 minute to revert back, but with talents it can be as short as 1 move action.

Still, if reverting a Brute back avoids you the trouble of remaking a character, I'll take it.

No, he reverts back only once he makes his save, not just by being calm. You're applying too much to a spell and having the aesthetics override the mechanics. It has specifically listed what all effects it cancels out. It doesn't cancel out Brute form, it doesn't cancel out Mutagen.

Brute Form isn't a morale effect caused by a spell, it's not a fear effect, it's not confusion, it's not the bard's inspiration, and it's not the barbarian's rage. Those are all the specific effects that calm emotions cancels out.

An Alchemist's mutagen grants alchemical stats bonuses; Calm Emotions wouldn't work on a "mutagened" alchemist anyway. The guy's drugged, not emotionally unstable.

Brute Form... isn't a morale effect, because it doesn't grant any single morale bonus, not even stat modifiers due to size adjustements. However, the inspiration and game mecanics are surprisingly similar to the Barbarian's Rage. Why would I need to calm a Brute down? Because he's angry, or enraged.

Also, no, it clearly states that a Brute reverts back to normal once he's calmed down, again, like the Hulk, but when Betty calmed him down in the live-action film starring Eric Bana or when Black Widow calms the Hulk down in Age of Ultron.

While it's true that Calm Emotions doesn't dispel morale effects and such, the Brute specifically explains that he reverts back to normal if he calms down, such as via succeeding the Will Save. Furthermore, once Calm Emotions ends, the Brute would still have to save yet again to avoid transforming back into the Brute Form if "he's still in mortal peril", wasting a daily use and shortening the duration due to him being fatigued or exhausted from the previous transformation.

To me, that is simply an overlooked aspect of the Brute Form. Why doesn't the Brute have talents that 1) grants him size bonuses and 2) rage powers... is beyond me though...

Starbuck_II wrote:

Yes, this will stop Brute from attacking you guys, but not revert you back.

Perfect, we found the way to protect the allies without needing to turn back, yay!

A Brute reverts back to his social identity once he calms down, just like if he would have succeeded his Will Save.

Without traits, it takes 1 minute to revert back, but with talents it can be as short as 1 move action.

Still, if reverting a Brute back avoids you the trouble of remaking a character, I'll take it.

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That's like saying that you cannot use Calm Emotions to calm down an angry regular person, because "being angry" doesn't grant morale bonuses...

Rysky wrote:
JiCi wrote:
Rysky wrote:

Because not everyone can afford expensive magic items and start the game at level 20?

And you can still roll a 1 and try to kill your teammates.

A Wand of Calm Emotions is affordable, or the actual spell would be, and yes, that would be an alternate solution. If the Brute's Will Save is low, that shouldn't be a problem.

Hey, I keep thinking that the Brute Form is like the Barbarian's Rage, so...

While CE will prevent violent actions, there's nothing to indicate that it would automatically undue the Brute form.

That and your basically paying extra for an item to keep you from killing your party members, or a tax on them to keep you from killing them.

Dude, the Brute Form is at 99,99% identical to a Barbarian's Rage.

"Allies can use the aid another action to assist this saving throw with skills like Diplomacy, as they attempt to calm him down."

The concept is based on the Hulk, who turns green when he's angry. You cannot be THAT more straightforward with the Brute here. Come on now.

Rysky wrote:

Because not everyone can afford expensive magic items and start the game at level 20?

And you can still roll a 1 and try to kill your teammates.

A Wand of Calm Emotions is affordable, or the actual spell would be, and yes, that would be an alternate solution. If the Brute's Will Save is low, that shouldn't be a problem.

Hey, I keep thinking that the Brute Form is like the Barbarian's Rage, so...

Rysky wrote:
And so I will defend to the death that the Brute archetype is meant for NPCs/Antagonists, not Player Characters.

Then why going that far with it? That's like expanding the Adept even if it's an NPC class.

Anyway, let's recap:
- The Brute has +6 for a Will Save by 20th level, because of Brutish Fortitude.
- Iron Will adds +2 to Will Saves
- A Cloak of Resistance adds up to +5 to saves
- A defiant weapon would help, up to +5 for non-epic levels. However... 1) it would have to be a gauntlet to take advantage of the unarmed strike and 2) it's a bit unclear if defiant would apply to that condition. Is it a mind-affecting effect?
- Your character would need a good Wisdom score, say 20, for +5.

6 + 2 + 5 + 5 + 5 = +23 for a Will Save by 20th level... and you would need to roll 7 or higher.

Furthermore, if you're in a party of 4, you included, the other 3 can Aid Other for +6 to the Will Save.

23 + 6 = +29 for a Will Save by 20th level... and you would need to roll 2 or higher.

Rysky wrote:
Seeing as how you have to make a save to avoid transforming when a fight breaks out, and the only other time it specifically says you're allowed one is when there are no more enemies around, I would say no.

Hmmm... it only states "when he is in mortal peril" or "when threatened in his vigilante identity"... TBH, when you're outnumbering one enemy 4-to-1, you're... not really threatened :P

I don't see anywhere that the Brute cannot end voluntarily his transformation...

Luthorne wrote:
Snowblind wrote:
Luthorne wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
Rysky wrote:

Yeah but people will want to play Brawlers.

After read over it multiple times I can safely say the Brute was meant as an NPC/Antagonist option, not a PC one.

Wild Rager becomes confused if they CHOOSE to rage, whereas a Brute transforms anytime a fight breaks out (and probably doesn't even need that much) and tries to kill everything around it.

WR has a manageable DC for the save, Brute does not, and also no longer has the Vigilant's good Will save progression.

See I thought it'd be really cool that instead of the DC being 20+level to attack everything the DC was 20-level. That way as you level it becomes easier to control yourself rather than harder.

That's actually really cool and would work great if you or your players wanted to actually play as one ^w^

Well, okay not that great since you'd still have to constantly be making checks to not kill your friends ;p

Well, not constantly. They attack enemies first. You only have to save once there are no more enemies. Just gotta keep a Black Widow around to talk you down!
Well, aid another checks stack, so it's probably better to have the whole party working to calm you down if possible...
Shame you can't aid another on saves, and a nat.1 autofails anyway so the brute will be trying to kill teammates once a week even with godlike saves.

Actually, the Brute can benefit from aid another on Will saves to not kill people they don't mean to kill.

But yeah, I feel like the Brute really needs Iron Will and Improved Iron Will with a Defiant weapon...which is kind of problematic, but.

I am currently asking for opinions on how to not Hulk-Smash everyone in sight as the Brute. So far, here's what I have collected:

- A Vigilante's strong saves are Reflex and Will; you need to succeed a Will save to resist fighting his allies, but that save is increasing as you level up, from 20 to 30. Capitalize on increasing your Wisdom score and taking the Iron Will feats, maybe also taking a Cloak of Resistance to help you out.
- Everyone can Aid Other for that specific Will save, so a group of 4 allies can grant a bonus totalling +8 to the Brute. Friendly NPCs that have part of the encounter can also assist to that save.
- Something I haven't thought yet: turn back to normal BEFORE finishing the last enemy of the encounter. No save will be required.

That's all I could get... but yeah, it's pretty dumb that you can "reason" when fighting enemies, but lose your mind as soon as no one threatens you. Kinda wish that you had the "Smart Hulk" option for the Brute.

Here's something I'd like to know: if there's only one enemy left as part of the encounter, can I turn back to normal, so my allies can finish it off without me going berserk?

I... don't see a rule about that, so...

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With the Vigilante and Ultimate Intrigue out, I'd like to see monsters related to that.

I've stated that I would like to see a Gemini, or a monster with 2 distinct bodies, but with one soul. A Vigilante with 2 bodies (social and vigilante), but with one soul would be great.

Same goes with other kinds of shapeshifters, creatures with possessing abilities like a body jumper, a judge-like creature to judge criminals, a fey with VERY deep pockets as a heister, a mob/troop template, a Zeitgeist (a fey as the urban embodiement; related to the spiritualist archetype) and finally, have more urban-themed creatures, not just something we could see in the wild.

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