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3,077 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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Alexandros Satorum wrote:
It seems caster level don't affect major curse (or bestow curse for that matter) at all.

It does. In this case, a higher caster level gives a greater chance to overcome spell resistance, longer range, and makes it harder to remove (such as with break enchantment or remove curse).

Naglfarthedwarf wrote:

Was there ever an official response or errata on Spell Resistance and spells with Spell Resistance: Yes(harmless)?

I know the general consensus is that it always applies whether spells are harmless or not. Still, there seems to be room for doubt in everything I've read so just wondered if there was an official line on it that had turned up at any point.

I don't see how it could be any clearer:

The terms "object" and "harmless" mean the same thing for spell resistance as they do for saving throws. A creature with spell resistance must voluntarily lower the resistance (a standard action) in order to be affected by such spells without forcing the caster to make a caster level check.

Spell resistance always applies when someone else targets you with an appropriate spell unless you take a standard action before hand to lower it.

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tchrman35 wrote:

MOST enchantments are priced in terms of +1's. A weapon can only ever have a total of +10 enchantments:

  • Up to +5 Enhancement Bonus
  • Up to +5 of special abilities

Not quite correct. The item is limited to +10 total, but you can have more than +5 worth of special abilities. You can have a +1 weapon with a total of +9 in special abilities. As long as the actual enhancement bonus is +5 or less, and the total modified enhancement bonus is +10 or less.

Do note that the prices listed are only if someone else does it. If you enchant the gear yourself (which requires the correct item creation feat), you do so at half that price.

RynMorgreim wrote:

So, this is a general question.

I have read that constructs gets bonus HP for.. well, being a construct. So I was wondering if this was Simple DM Discretion, or Androids actually gets this bonus?

Androids aren't creatures with the Construct type. They are creatures with the Humanoid type, but who also count as constructs for targeting purposes only. They don't gain any of the special things constructs get (like the bonus hit points), but you can target them with things like enlarge person.

Alchemist 23 wrote:

I get that you get to use your chosen skill to make items but does that mean I can make any item using that skill that doesn't specifically say its crafted with another skill?

For example if I had Master Craftsman (Alchemy) and Craft Wonders Item could I use Alchemy to make a Robe of Components? Or Eyes of the Eagle?

When making wondrous items, it is basically up to the GM what craft and profession skills can be used when it isn't obvious.

Personally, Craft (Alchemy) could be fluffed into making most magic items. You could say you brew up something that you soak the item components in, infusing them with the magic in the brew. You can probably think of a way to make any of the wondrous items, especially if you include ingredients in your brew that are thematic to the item (breath of an air elemental for a bottle of air, brain of a telepathic creature for a helm of telepathy, blood of particularly strong creatures for items dealing with strength, troll blood of similiar for items dealing with regeneration/fast healing, and so on).

Arms and armor do list specific craft skills, so while you could possible do the same with those, that would be a houserule.

I would say that the wearer is not casting the spell at all. It is a magic item power the same as any other - you activate the item, and the item casts the spell. It doesn't allow the wearer to cat the spell - how would you figure the effects? What if the wearer doesn't have a caster level? What if he has multiple caster levels? Is it a spell (and so requires components)? A spell-like ability (no components necessary)? Many questions are raised if you believe the item lets the wearer cast the spell himself.

The power is in the veil, you just command it to activate. As such, you are not casting a spell (or spell-like ability). As it requires activation, it can not be used while wildshaped. No special rules or complications - it functions the same as every other item that gives the effects of a spell.

Yes, it says "Casts". There are similar reference in other magic items as well (like the ring of telekinesis). You still need to activate those, and it isn't the wearer casting the spell.

Aaron Martin 718 wrote:
I couldn't find anything that says you can't but I wanted to know that if your mounted and have a shield, can you use shield bash. I was thinking about the mechanics of it. One of my players wants to TWF, shield bash then attack. The thought of someone on a horse hitting an enemy with a shield then following that with a sword stoke simply boggles me. Official ruling?

Don't overthink it. The character can do this just fine as far as the rules are concerned.

The cloak of elvenkind is a competence bonus, not a circumstance bonus. Blend gives a circumstance bonus, not an enhancement bonus.

Aside from that, you are correct.

John Murdock wrote:
i would say since it does not say when you cast you choose, you must choose what type of energy when casting it (unlike a sorceror because spontaneous), same for detect an alignment and protection vs an alignment

And you would be wrong. I already posted the relevant part of the rules. And doubly wrong about detecting an alignment and protection vs an alignment, because that isn't a single spell but 4 (one for each alignment) for each.

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spartanfury1 wrote:

Ok another related question.

It was brought up by one of my friends about this spell.

Their comment was that they think that casters whom prep their spells would have to pick what manner of energy the spell is set to upon preparing spells. So they would have you prep "resist energy (fire)" that morning...or whatever other element.

what are the opinions on this?

They are wrong. Magic chapter, under Choosing a Spell:

If a spell has multiple versions, you choose which version to use when you cast it. You don't have to prepare (or learn, in the case of a bard or sorcerer) a specific version of the spell.

Wall of Force and Teleport are 5th level spells, so the first staff would need to be:

Wall of Force (10 charges) - 5 x 9 x 40 = 1800
Teleport (10 charges) -------- 5 x 9 x 30 = 1350
Lightning Bolt (1 charge) -- 3 x 9 x 200 = 5400

Total = 8550

Using different, 4th level spells would use the numbers in the post however.

Kitty Catoblepas wrote:

Warning: The following is cheese

Note that it's worth it to have two highest-level spells that consume 10 charges per casting. You get the utility of having them as emergency spells and you reduce the cost of the spells you want. This seems to work even if your DM require your "2 highest level spells" be one level higher than your third highest level spell.


Example: I want a staff with lightning bolt.

I put in
Wall of Force (10 charges) - 4 x 8 x 40 = 1280
Teleport (10 charges) -------- 4 x 8 x 30 = 960
Lightning Bolt (1 charge) -- 3 x 8 x 200 = 4800

Total = 7040


Compare to -- Staff with 1 spell

Lightning Bolt (1 charge) -- 3 x 8 x 4000 = 9600


Compare to -- Max-level wand of Lightning Bolt
Lightning bolt (at level 10) -- 10 x 3 x 750 = 22500

You also require a 4th level spell slot to recharge your first staff, but only a 3rdlevel slot to recharge the lightning bolt-only staff. So in this case the multi-spell staff does have more utility, but also requires a more power spell slot to recharge.

Hogeyhead wrote:
So I know that you can craft a scroll with more than one spell on it. It's rarely done, but it's valid as far as I'm aware. My question is if say you make a scroll with the same spell let's say 5 times do you need to cast the spell 5 times each day of crafting the scroll, or just once?

The rules say:

Scribing a scroll requires 1 day per 1,000 gp of the base price. Although an individual scroll might contain more than one spell, each spell must be scribed as a separate effort, meaning that no more than 1 spell can be scribed in a day.

Effectively, you aren't scribing a single scroll with 5 spells. You are creating 5 scrolls that just happen to all be attached together. It is made the same as 5 individual scrolls.

So you completely finish scribing one spell, then you move on to the next.

Atalius wrote:

The target takes a –2 penalty on one of the following (witch’s choice): AC, ability checks, attack rolls, saving throws, or skill checks

Question: What exactly constitutes an Ability check.

A d20 roll that only adds the characters relevant ability modifier. Forcing open a stuck door is an example of an ability check (Specifically, a Strength check).

Create Mr. Pitt wrote:
Is this an artifact in an AP or other source or homemade, because for a homemade artifact it would be perfectly reasonable for the DC to based on a higher CL, such as 25.

The DC to save against a spell has nothing to do with caster level. It could have a caster level of 10 million, and the DC to resist wouldn't change.

That being said, if the spell was cast with the Heighten metamagic feat added (magic items that cast spells can have metamagic feats included at creation), the DC to resist would increase as normal. But even then, you are looking at a maximum DC of 23 (10 + heightened to 9th level spell + 4 from minimum ability score of 19).

Also, as an artifact, it doesn't need to follow the rules exactly. There is a a reason artifacts are beyond creation.

Hobbs. wrote:

Is the same true of the Magic Stones from the spell magic stone?

How about when I use a sling to throw them?

How about the coins used in the spell coin shot?

or the icicle created in the spell Icicle Dagger?

I ask this as a caster with a low strength... worried about bumping into this in PFS...

Icicle dagger says it creates a masterwork dagger which does normal dagger damage (with +1 cold damage added in). So like with a normal dagger, strength bonuses/penalties would apply.

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You have to look at bonus types.

A cloak of resistance adds a resistance bonus.
Resistance Mastery also gives a resistance bonus. Bonuses of the same type don't stack, so it would be useless since the cloak gives a bigger bonus.
Armed Bravery (And regular bravery) are untyped, so would stack with anything.

Bonuses of the same type don't stack (with few exceptions). Bonuses of different types (or untyped bonuses) do stack.

Hobbs. wrote:
zrandrews wrote:

If my PC has a minus to her strength, does that mean she does less damage when she hits a target with the "ball of packed ice and snow"?


"If my PC has a minus to her strength, does that mean she does less damage when she hits a target with [insert other conjured object]?"

in most cases the answer here would be yes. Why is it "no" for this object? Why is this an exception to the rule of thrown items?

Because it doesn't add your Strength modifier to damage at all. It does 1d6 damage/level. If your Strength modifier added or subtracted from that, it would specifically say so.

It isn't a thrown weapon. It is a spell that you just happen to throw.

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SheepishEidolon wrote:
It's weird that seeing invisible helps against blinking foes, but Blind-Fight does not. However, as written Blind-Fight has completely no benefit against a blinking creature, as Saethori said.

Blink quickly teleports you to the ethereal plane and back. See invisibility can see ethereal creatures. So with see invisibility. you can still continuously see the blinking creature. But the blinking creature is still not in the material plane part of the time, which is why there is still a (smaller than normal) miss chance.

Blind Fight doesn't help because part of the time the blinking target is literally on another plane, and there would be nothing for blind-fight to help against.

Zelfin wrote:
Ok but again, I understand how the tools work. My question was can a crafter then continue to work for another 7 hours gaining more progress?
We weren't talking to you, but to someone else who brought up another question. Your question has no official answer - make something up.

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steven_mallory wrote:
Rezdave wrote:
0gre wrote:
@Rezdave Russ was replying to Zappo's Q about the Inquisitor not the general cast.

That makes better sense ... I kept looking for a Poster named "Inquisitor" to whom he was replying.

I missed the question. Sorry.


In any case, the original question has been rendered somewhat moot by a recent FAQ: agical#130 agical#179

And you felt the need to resurrect a 7 year old dead thread why?

I've noticed it, but only on older threads. If you look at the messageboard FAQ:


What's up with the dots?

They indicate threads you've recently posted to.

It specifies recently posted to threads. I would assume that after a certain amount of time, the dot disappears.

Kotello wrote:
Saethori wrote:

It is customary, if asking a new question, to make your own thread instead of necroing a four-years-buried one.

No matter what I do, somebody says I am doing it wrong.

I post to an old thread and people tell me "don't necro old threads, create new ones!"

I start a new thread and people tell me "use search to post to old threads, don't start new ones!"

There is a difference between resurrecting a thread a few weeks dead and one several years dead. Especially considering that the rules do change so the one several years dead may no longer have any purpose as the rules changed.

Is there a reason it would matter?

Seornep wrote:
I think its because i have access to level 1 ranger spells, which are arcane.

No, they aren't. Rangers cast divine spells, so are a divine caster.

Spells: Beginning at 4th level, a ranger gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells, which are drawn from the ranger spell list presented in Spell Lists. A ranger must choose and prepare his spells in advance.

RoseCrown wrote:

Say I have a Greatsword +1 (Bane [Chaotic Outsiders], Bane [Evil Outsiders]), that I use to strike a demon.

What's my enhancement bonus and how much damage do I do?

In other words, do Bane effects stack?

No. From the FAQ:


Bane: Can I apply multiple bane special abilities to the same weapon? If so, do their effects stack?

You can apply multiple bane special abilities to the same weapon. For example, you can have a +1 dragon- and fey-bane longsword, which has an increased enhancement bonus and damage against dragons and against fey.

If you have multiple bane effects on a weapon and attack a creature against which more than one bane applies (such as a chaotic- and evil-outsider bane weapon used against a demon), the effects do not stack: the weapon's enhancement bonus is only +2 higher than its actual enhancement bonus, and it only deals +2d6 points of damage against that opponent.

(Compare to fighter weapon training or ranger favored enemy bonuses, both of which say you use the highest bonus if more than one bonus applies.)

There is only a minimum when the ability specifically says there is a minimum. If it doesn't state a minimum, you round down to 0.

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Atalius wrote:
How do I know what the DC is for Witch hexes? Say im using Charm at level 8, hwhat would the DC be? Or for example I'm using Slumber at level 2 what is the Will DC?

You read the rulebook.


Hex: Witches learn a number of magic tricks, called hexes, that grant them powers or weaken foes. At 1st level, a witch gains one hex of her choice. She gains an additional hex at 2nd level and for every 2 levels attained after 2nd level, as noted on Table 2–10. A witch cannot select an individual hex more than once.

Unless otherwise noted, using a hex is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. The save to resist a hex is equal to 10 + 1/2 the witch's level + the witch's Intelligence modifier.

Nixitur wrote:
The Amazing Tools of Manufacture do absolutely nothing for magical crafting such as with any of the item creation feats.

I see nothing in the description of the tools that prohibits their working with magic item creation.

The wielder may use the tools to create items using the Craft skill much more surely and quickly.

Magic items are created through the appropriate Craft skill (or Spellcraft, which works for all items). Making magic armor uses wither the Craft (Armor) skill or Spellcraft. Magic weapons use Craft (Weapon) or Spellcraft. And so on. As far as the game mechanics are concerned, the tools do aid in magic item construction.

From a descriptive point of view, the tools require the Master Craftsman feat to make (in addition to Craft Wondrous Item). The sole purpose of Master Craftsman (aside from a minor bonus on checks) is to make magic items using a specific Craft or Profession skill. Why would the Master Craftsman feat be a requirement if the tools could not assist in making magic items? So from a descriptive/fluff point of view, the tools should assist in making magic items.

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DigitalWino wrote:
I find it funny how I asked a simple yes or no question: has this specific question been officially answered? I said I didn't want opinions (which to me would include rules interpretations). And instead I got a bunch of people discussing how they interpret the rules and think it works. *Sigh*. Oh well, I kinda had a feeling this would happen, lol.

You never specified what question (there are at least 2 possibilities in this case that I can see). We just assumed. You need to be more specific.

And no. No official response is needed, so no official response has been given. The rules are very clear.

Nixitur wrote:
Jeraa wrote:
Detect magic doesn't require you to see the target - it does work through walls after all.

What, really, it does? Where do you get that from? 'cause the rules state that it's an emanation. Emanations are stated to work like burst spells in most respects and a burst spell "can’t affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin". Total cover means that you have no line of effect to the target square which walls would definitely fall under.

The spell itself?

Outsiders and elementals are not magical in themselves, but if they are summoned, the conjuration spell registers. Each round, you can turn to detect magic in a new area. The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it.

It sees through walls, provided the wall isn't too thick. Regardless of how other emanations works, the spell specifically says it can penetrate barriers. Specific vs general, specific wins.

KingOfAnything wrote:
Detect Magic wrote:
3rd Round: The power and location of each aura. If an aura is outside your line of sight, then you discern its direction but not its exact location.
I don't think an invisible target is considered within line of sight. So, you'd pick up direction, but not pinpoint location.

That isn't what the PRD says. It says:

3rd Round: The strength and location of each aura. If the items or creatures bearing the auras are in line of sight, you can make Knowledge (arcana) skill checks to determine the school of magic involved in each. (Make one check per aura: DC 15 + spell level, or 15 + 1/2 caster level for a nonspell effect.) If the aura emanates from a magic item, you can attempt to identify its properties (see Spellcraft).

You automatically determine the location. You need line of sight to determine the school of magic involved.

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_Ozy_ wrote:

Huh? Is there even any debate about this? Of course detect magic will detect magic invisibility...

However, you won't be able to pinpoint the location of an invisible creature/object unless you spend 3 rounds looking in the same area.

And even then, you still have a 50% miss chance.

Detect magic doesn't require you to see the target - it does work through walls after all.

As for an official answer - read the rules on invisibility in the glossary of the core rulebook. It includes:

Invisibility does not thwart divination spells.

In other words, detection spells work just fine against invisible targets.

Gloom wrote:
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Quandary wrote:
FAQ wrote:

Item Creation Feats: Does having a caster level from a spell-like ability meet the caster level prerequisite for selecting an item creation feat?


And this also enables crafting magic items who don't even involve the specific spell/SLA but require a certain CL for their effect, e.g. normal vanilla magic weapons/armor?


In fact, until I found the "can use SLA" rule at the start of the Magic Items chapter, we almost ruled that an SLA creature could select the feat, but could only craft things that didn't have spell requirements, as all of the backmatter about item creation just talks about "have the spell prepared (or known, if a bard or sorcerer)," which would still allow for +1 weapons and such.

I found this response in another Rules Question which is why I'm asking for an official response from the Rules Team.

You can find it in this post: lities-and-how

The FAQ is an official response from the Rules Team. The caster level of spell-like abilities do not qualify as caster levels to meet prerequisites. Spell-like abilities can be used to meet specific spell requirements, however. Just not caster level requirements.

Gloom wrote:

Do any of the Rogue's Talents count as having a Caster Level for the purposes of qualifying for Magic Item Crafting Feats? There have been some posts in the past that referenced this but I wanted an official rule confirmation.

There are several talents such as Minor Magic and Major Magic that grant spell like abilities at a Caster Level equal to the Rogue's level so I wanted to be sure.


Spell-like abilities do not qualify. From the FAQ:


Item Creation Feats: Does having a caster level from a spell-like ability meet the caster level prerequisite for selecting an item creation feat?


Lady-J wrote:
why is inflict moderate wounds a 3rd level spell and inflict serious wounds a 4th level spell but inflict light wounds is a 1st level spell?

The same reason the paladin has cure light wounds as 1st level, cure moderate wounds as 3rd level, and [i]cure serious wounds[/] as a 4th level spell. Because that is how the designers wanted it.

As to why that is true, you would have to ask Wizards of the Coast. They are the ones that did it. Paizo merely copied it, then gave the antipaladin the inflict versions at the same level.

JDLPF wrote:
There are also items such as the orange prism ioun stone that increase your caster level for all spells, not just one spell. Still, whatever method you're using, you cannot create an item whose caster level is higher than your own caster level.

Again, that is wrong. And the FAQ states so (the question is specifically about a pearl of power, but the answer would still apply elsewhere):

For example, a 3rd-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item can create a 1st-level pearl, with a minimum caster level of 1. He can set the caster level to whatever he wants (assuming he can meet the crafting DC), though the pearl's caster level has no effect on its powers (other than its ability to resist dispel magic). If he wants to make a 2nd-level pearl, the caster level has to be at least 3, as wizards can't cast 2nd-level spells until they reach character level 3. He can even try to make a 3rd-level pearl, though the minimum caster level is 5, and he adds +5 to the DC because he doesn't meet the "able to cast 3rd-level spells" requirement

Note that it is not "He can set the caster level to whatever he wants, up to a maximum of his caster level". You can set the caster level of an item as high as you want, regardless of your caster level.

However (as I noted earlier) potions, scrolls, and wands have specific text that prohibits you from using a caster level higher than your own. Other magic items have no such limitation.

You can make magic items with a caster level higher than your own. Caster level requirements are one of the things that can be bypassed. The only reason you would need to do that is if the item had a higher caster level than your own. Assuming you had the feat and the gold, you can totally make a +5 sword (Caster level requirement 15th) at 5th level.

That being said:


Caster Level (CL): The next item in a notational entry gives the caster level of the item, indicating its relative power. The caster level determines the item's saving throw bonus, as well as range or other level-dependent aspects of the powers of the item (if variable). It also determines the level that must be contended with should the item come under the effect of a dispel magic spell or similar situation.

For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell but not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself.

Potions, scrolls, and wands can not be made with a caster level higher than yours.

Abraham Z. wrote:
Yep, you no longer meet the prerequisites, no effect until you do

No, you meet the prerequisite just fine. The only prerequisite for the feat is that you have the sneak attack class feature.

So you still qualify for the feat, it just wouldn't have any effect. This is an important distinction, as if you no longer qualify for a feat, you can't use any other feat that requires it as a prerequisite either. In this case I don't think that matters, but it is something to keep in mind.

doc roc wrote:
I cant think of any item that gives more than a +5 on a skill check... could be wrong!

Improved Ring of Climbing, +10 Climb. Also a jumping ring and a swimming ring that give a +10 bonus.

Improved Slick armor property gives +10 on escape artist checks. Also Improved Shadow for stealth. The greater version gives +15.

Various elixers give +10, though those are temporary.

Robe of Eyes, +10 perception.

There are several items that give more than a +5 bonus.

James Risner wrote:
What issue being temporary for 23.99 hrs a day are you hoping to fix by being permanent for 24 hrs a day?

I assume, since he specified Intelligence, he is trying to get skill ranks from it similar to how a headband of vast intelligence grants skill ranks after 24 hours.

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avr wrote:
In D&D 3.5 a +20 or greater skill bonus would be an epic item, requiring a creator of greater than 20th level and another feat.

+30, not +20.

Szel wrote:
What is the maximum skill bonus that can be crafted into a magic item?

There isn't one, but as far as I know most generally don't go above +15.

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Lady-J wrote:
doesn't using the epic array increase cr by 1? so that's were that cr increase is coming from

Yes and no. An NPC with only NPC class levels uses the Basic NPC array (13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8) and has a CR equal to his level -2. An NPC with PC class levels uses the Heroic NPC array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) and has a CR equal to his level -1.

So basically yes, but that is already accounted for in the formula. The only other thing that would impact it would then be gear, but the NPC has appropriate gear for a level 13 NPC with PC class levels.

Any NPC or monster with PC class levels gets to use that array, but by itself it adds nothing. It is accounted for in the increased CR adding a PC level adds.

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After further looking, he doesn't have PC wealth. Not even close. He does have the correct amount for a 13th level heroic NPC, however. I'm not seeing anything then that would boost his CR above the normal level-1 it should be. So CR 12.

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Ryan Kappler wrote:
It says it is a CR13 enemy. I really do not see why, though. Sure, triple digit hit points and multiple attacks and many feats, but the damages are low, and he would need a way to be able to use the sneak attack damage.

His 13 class levels give him a CR of 12. NPCs from that section of the NPC Codex have PC level equipment, which gives a +1 CR boost, so CR 13.

Edit: I assumed the wrong NPC Codex. The reqular NPC Codex gives those NPCs the wealth boost. I don't see the Inner Sea NPC Codex saying the same thing, but it is probably true as well.

Chemlak wrote:
Isn't it Mnemonic Enhancer and nothing else, but only because that spell would do literally nothing for a sorcerer?

Blood Transcription, Mnemonic Enhancer, and Mage's Lucubration are the three I know of that wizards have but sorcerers don't. They all deal with wizard-specific things that sorcerers don't have to worry about.

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The game has a definition for what a penalty is. It isn't just anything bad.

Penalty: Penalties are numerical values that are subtracted from a check or statistical score. Penalties do not have a type and most penalties stack with one another.

The number of hands a weapon requires may be a drawback or limitation, but as far as the rules are concerned it is not a penalty.

Mephistopholoid wrote:

I'm well aware Hardness and DR, are two separate things, however for constructs, with no listed hardness it FEELS like there's a ven diagram here if the two, I'm missing.

The explanantions of abilities make this out to be something applicable to all automatons, the description of a Liberator Archetype, is even solely about fighting robots, yet, they have DR, not Hardness.

You aren't missing anything. While there are a few contructs that do have hardness (mainly animated objects and robots), the vast majority don't.

Mephistopholoid wrote:
Why would Paizo make archetypes that say one thing but do another?

Why would Paizo make a feat that removes a non-existent penalty (the original Prone Shooter feat)? Why would they make NPCs with potions of personal spells (said spells can not be made into potions).

If you look at the actual book the Liberator archtype comes from, you will notice that isn't what it is called. It is actually the Numerian Liberator archetype (I assume you are getting your info from d20PFSRD, where they remove any reference to Golarion). Numeria has a lot of robots running around, and many of those robots have hardness. The archetype works perfectly well for where it was intended.

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