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A Bladebound Kensai will work just fine with a Strength build and a Katana. I'm playing one right now and it does a great job at dealing damage, while being fragile enough that my GM doesn't complain about me being too powerful.
You're going to have a low AC at first, so some means of gaining Mage Armor is really required. Picking up the spell at level 6 with an arcana is a great idea.
The Dervish Dance Scimitar build is the most optimized build btw, giving you good AC and adequate damage. It's just so common that I find it rather boring.
This is actually the group's second Zelda campaign, and it's been a blast. We've had several dungeon crawls even with the party just at level 4, and just wrapped up a major battle outside of a fort. An army of Darknuts and Stalfos makes for a tough fight.
I'll get the piece ordered (probably 2 of him so I can swap a foot) and see how he turns out. Thanks guys!
Thanks for the suggestions guys, these are pretty good. Ivan's is about the closest to what I'd imagine for the character and a foot replacement should be easy.
I'm really glad I'm not the only person with this idea.
So I'm playing in a Legends of Zelda inspired game, and I over-optimized a bit on my first character. I've swapped him out for a new character who is much more fun and fits the level of optimization of the party better, but I'm really having trouble find a good miniature to even use as a foundation for a mod job.
So, anybody have suggestions for a Gorron Monk, themed after Hulk Hogan? =D
Keep in mind, Gorrons are large, sumo wrestler sized guys that kinda look like they are made out of stone. They also have no females, so they call everybody they meet "Brother". I'm trying to find a bug bulky guy with a face that would be easy to add Hogan's mustache on to.
So the Errata states: "Page 51—In the Pistolero archetype, in the Deeds class feature, in the Up Close and Deadly deed, delete the
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't that be "This is precision damage and is not multiplied if the attack is a critical hit."
If so this would be a really odd change. The very next sentence specifically refers to "This precision damage" as does the one after that.
Cheating among players should be unacceptable. You're playing a cooperative game and should be able to handle the fact that sometimes you'll fail. If you're not mature enough to handle that fact, then honestly I would suggest playing a different game.
Now I do hold GMs to a slightly different standard. GMs should be rolling behind a screen and should the choice of occasionally fudging their die rolls. Sometimes you're rolling consistently bad and the big boss fight requires that you fake your numbers just to make sure the fight is fun for your players. Sometimes you roll insanely well, but don't want to kill off a character a player is really invested in due to a lucky crit with a Power Attacking Scythe.
The feat is "best" used for giving some blasting options to non-blaster casters, such as the Summoner or Bard. Even then, those classes usually have better options.
For a Sorcerer, you're better of just using your normal blasting spells as their damage will scale higher. This is especially true if you use a Bloodline that boosts your damage further.
I honestly wouldn't focus on combat much at all if you're stuck with those rolls and can't finagle an Agile weapon. Two levels of Paladin would help you with saves and heavier armor, but I wouldn't pick up any more unless your GM decides to allow Archetypes. The Oradin build assumes they'll be available. That being said, definitely go with 4 levels of Oracle to start out with, you'll be much more effective that way.
If you go with Weapon Finesse you'll have to pick up a decent Agile weapon. Note that as a Kitsune you could have profficiency with an Elven Curve Blade at level 4, which is a pretty nice combat option.
You may be better off using spell slots for those occasional times you need to do something offensive though. Up to you.
Healing is going to involve putting Life Link on the entire party and healing damage you take personally. A Wand of Cure Light Wounds is a must buy with your starting cash, you'll burn through it most likely. Drop Life Link and use Channel Energy when your HP gets low.
Personally, I would rather opt for using Disarm against players rather than try to Sunder their weapons. You get the same kind of intent, but without permanent loss of a martial character's main investment.
If you are going to use Sunder, provide a means for eventual restoration or replacement of the destroyed items that doesn't have an impact on WBL.
How about using a coin, that looks like a common silver or gold piece. This would allow the intelligent item to be passed around, until it makes its way into the hands of somebody it wants to dominate. It's a common enough item that nobody is going to think twice about it, and is easy to hide (the party finds a stash of silver coins worth yadda yadda yadda).
I have a few questions before I get started.
1) Are you using a 20 point buy and would you be willing to switch up the stat block? A Str: 13 Dex: 16 Con: 13 Int: 12 Wis: 8 Cha: 16 would work out a bit better, with the your level 4 boost going into Con. An Oradin build really wants more HP to power the Life Link ability, 14 Con is really the minimum.
2) Could you convince your GM to give you a +1 Agile weapon instead? If so, an Agile weapon along with Power Attack would give you decent damage as you level up with only 1 feat invested in offence.
3) Is the no archetype ruling a personal preference or a GM ruling? The Oradin build can really benefit from using archetypes in your Paladin levels.
I think the only really problematic questions on the survey where the ones asking you to compare the classes to other classes. The idea of rating power & effectiveness of one class to all others. It's just really hard to compare something like the swashbuckler to both a Wizard and a Fighter at the same time. The rest of the questions were pretty easy to answer.
The amount of time the developers spent on the forums, actually responding to everybody, was pretty impressive. It's very rare to see that level of interaction from any game company, and it was pretty similar to the kind of interaction I expect out of Blizzard. Well done overall.
I think many of us would have liked additional time to play test the second document. I've got a 5 class play test I'm still working on (Investigator, Warpriest, Shaman, Arcanist and Hunter) but I just didn't have time to get everything typed up and participate in the forum conversations. It might be beneficial to maintain a forum specifically for playtest posts (no discussion, just post your on-going playtests).
I'd like to second Oceanshieldwolf's desire to see more than one developer in each thread. I'm guessing y'all divided up the work a fair bit, but I do think that some of the combativeness that cropped up in some threads could have been lessened with more voices in the discussion. Keeping in mind of course that this is the internet, so somebody is always going to be unhappy.
On the whole though, it was fun and I'm looking forward to buying the book in August. And hey, this'll be one where I actually buy the hardcover ;).
+1 on this comment.
Besides, if the issue is allowing a Warpriest to effectively use Diplomacy then that could easily be handled with a trait similar to Bruising Intellect.
Since this is the last opportunity, I'd like to repeat my comments.
1) I really like the core mechanics for the class. Spirits feel like they're similar to parent class features but are different enough to be something new and interesting.
Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
Good one! I've updated all my surveys but I just want to say I absolutely can't wait to play an Investigator. I think this is one of the better built classes at the moment and really just needs some additional polish. August can't come soon enough.
I don't really buy the idea of balancing a class with MADness. That was attempted with the Monk class back in 3.5 and it rendered the class largely ineffective. The base game mechanics just don't treat a class that has to spread points out so much well. The class needs a dump stat, and since it is designed as a martial class that really only leaves us with Wisdom or Charisma as options.
You see Charisma as the most common dump stat largely because it is a relatively "weak" stat on its own. If the "min 1" rule applies to fervor per day, I already see many Warpriests dumping Cha and ignoring their Channel Energy ability anyway.
These are very valid points. Low HP coupled with a d8 hit die is actually the biggest weakness of the class when engaged in melee and isn't something to take likely.
I ran a bunch of level 9 builds with full WBL, and while the Str builds do more damage (particularly the Kirin Strike build), the Dex builds aren't terribly far behind so long as you can get Dex to damage. Really either build is viable and the one should use comes down to party makeup and personal preference.
So I promised some Lvl 1 builds, here you go:
Str: 16 Dex: 14 Con: 14 Int: 15 Wis: 10 Cha: 8
HP: 11 AC: 17
Traits: Bruising Intellect, Threatening Defender
Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
Suggested Extracts: Shield, Enlarge Person
Gear: Longspear, Lamellar (Leather) Armor
Melee: +3 1d8+4 x3, +5 CMB on Trips
Tactics: Hang back with your reach weapon for easier flanking and trip enemies whenever possible. Use Shield Exracts to boost your AC to 21 or Enlarge Humanoid to make sure your trip attempts land.
Race: Half Elf
Alternate Racial Trait: Ancestral Arms (Greatsword)
Str: 16 Dex: 14 Con: 14 Int: 15 Wis: 10 Cha: 8
HP: 11 AC: 16
Traits: Reactionary, Failed Apprentice
Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike
Suggested Extracts: Shield, Cure Light Wounds
Gear: Greatsword, Lamellar (Leather) Armor
Melee: +3 2d6+4 19-20 x2
Tactics: Drink the Shield Extract ASAP and just charge in with your +5 attack bonus and an 18 AC.
Str: 14 Dex: 18 Con: 12 Int: 14 Wis: 12 Cha: 7
HP: 10 AC: 18
Traits: Reactionary, Bruising Intellect
Feats: Weapon Finesse
Suggested Extracts: Shock Shield
Gear: Rapier, Chain Shirt
Melee: +4 1d6+2 18-20 x2
Tactics: You'll be dealing less damage than a Strength build, by you've got a better chance to hit and crit along with a very nice AC bonus. I like using Shock Shield with this build as a way to deliver some AOE damage.
Either of these three builds will work in combat at first level and you won't be terrible. Like most 3/4 BAB classes you'll want a flanking partner and you can't expect to be doing the same damage as a Fighter or a Barbarian. And to be honest, you'll probably be a little bit behind the Rogue at levels 1 and 2.
Starting at level 3 though, you can start abusing Mutagens and shouldn't be lagging behind anybody. At level 4 you'll have 2 Extracts a day to boost your Dex or Str along with that Mutagen and with Studied Strike will have the attack bonuses of a full BAB class.
Considering the other class features that you gain, I think the class on the whole works well. My primary gripes are that the class is rather feat starved, particularly so at the early levels.
I described a bunch several pages back, but sure I'll post some details tonight. As a quick overview though here's how the two I focused on:
Two-Handed Fighting: Go for 16 Str and distribute your other stats how you wish. Fight with a two-handed weapon for +3 attack bonus and weapon dice +4 at first level. Base AC in the 15-16 range, use Shield Extracts to boost it. At level 2 you'll want a Masterwork weapon, you have have a +5 attack bonus.
Dervish Dancing: At least a 13 Str for Power Attack and as much Dex as you can afford. Damage is low during early levels but your AC is much higher and your equipment costs are cheaper. At level 3 you're in good shape even without extracts or a mutagen. A Dex boosting mutagen is great at this point though.
I have done a lot of testing with a ton of builds, and I haven't had any serious problems with the Inquisitor at levels 1-3. The class winds up with similar stat allocations as a Magus, with the same options. You can go with a Strength build and contribute adequate to good damage for 3 levels or go with a Dex build where your damage will be reduced until level 3, but your defenses will be higher. From level 4 and on you have no problems.
Yes it could be a little better, and probably should be if this class was intended for a pure combat role. However, the core concept of the class is actually as a support role with a strong focus on out of combat utility. The fact that the class can perform adequately in combat while stealing the show outside of it makes this a pretty strong class in my opinion.
I actually rather like this idea. My main comments would be that the archetype should grant proficiency with Armored Coats (Combat Trench Coat) and that an extra Grit point every 2nd level would be way more Grit than most Grit-based classes get naturally.
So for the first 3 levels, sure a Vivisectionist is stronger than an Investigator. I'm just saying the Investigator isn't absolutely hopeless. Frankly, I think it works better for the first couple of levels than a Dex-based Swashbuckler currently does =P.
Also Excaliburproxy, you should have at least 2 first level extracts per day at first level, and gain an additional extract at levels 2 and 3. If you want to use those in combat plan on using 1 per fight and they can stretch out the day. You also can get a mutagen at third level which can last for multiple fights. That's significantly more than just one combat a day and you should be pretty dominant during the out of combat stuff.
The class does have some early level issues, I just don't think they're absolutely crippling. Now, a few pages back I did make some suggestions that I think should be applied to class that help out those early levels.
1) Start talent progression at level 2
2) Allow selection of the Rogue talents that grant combat oriented feats. This change would also give us some viable options other than Mutagen for our first Talent.
3) Move Studied Combat to level 1 while leaving Studied Strike and the bonus precision damage at level 4. I've recently become ok with this suggested change, mostly because I like the idea of players getting used to the mechanics of Studied Combat at an earlier level.
With smart extract use you're perfectly viable at first level. You need a 16 and your to-hit stat and a flanking buddy for those first two levels is all. That's the same place Bards, Rogues, Clerics and other 3/4 fighters find themselves in. At level 3 you can grab your mutagen for those tough fights. Not as great as a full BAB class at pure melee combat, but you bring a lot more to the table.
Studied Combat as a swift action, but it'll last 2-4 rounds.Kirin Style is a swift action to make a Knowledge check and "identify" the target. This grants you a +2 AC bonus against the target.
Kirin Strike is a swift action to add double your Intelligence bonus as extra damage. It requires that you first identify the target.
So the way the combat style works out, you spend 2 rounds worth of swift actions to gain bonuses in combat against them. On the third round the target should be close to death, so you use your swift action to Kirin Strike at the same time you make your Studied Strike and finish off the target.
On round 4 of combat you pick a new target and repeat the process. Against a really tough critter you can use Kirin Strike on consecutive rounds, saving your Studied Strike for the final round.
I've been playing around with various war priest builds, and I really think the class could benefit from not being tied to Charisma. This class is more MAD than the monk currently, and I keep feeling like I'm being restricted when trying to decide what ability scores to choose.
I would suggest tying Fervor to Wisdom as a good starting point, especially since I don't see myself bothering to channel all that often. In fact, I could live with losing the ability to channel energy.
I'm ok with Studied Strike being worse overall damage than Sneak Attack, as the Studied Combat mechanic more than makes up for it. The melee attack bonuses are significant and you're already getting some static damage bonuses. Once the ability becomes a swift action you'll always have these bonuses on your current target and can deal bonus damage every 2-3 turns. That's about as often as most Rogues get to sneak attack in my experience, though Rogues can easily dual-wield for extra attacks and they deal more damage when doing so.
On the whole, I think the abilities are about on par.
Well that sucks then =P. The action action sequence can still work out about the same though, and after thinking about things this morning I found that the actual problem with the Strength build was trying to activate Kirin Style too soon.
Assuming that both bulids have a +4 Belt, and prebuff with their Mutagent the both wind up with either a 27 for their offensive attribute. If you pop a Haste Extract, spend a swift action to start Studied combat and then move towards your target both will be ready to unload 3 attacks on round 2.
The Strength build will do more damage, but the Dex build can afford an extra weapon enchant or some utility magic items as the Str build has to buy items to shore up a rather weak AC.
The Strength build can really climb ahead with Kirin Style, but you want to activate it on round 2 instead of round 1. This may not be the strongest style to use though, as in practice you're only likely to get to use it every 3rd round, usually coupled with your Sudden Strike. A Hasted Full-Attack isn't worth giving up, so you've got multiple options competing for that swift action.
Good point on using a reach weapon for some distance. So I crunched some numbers on two builds. First a Strength build using a Greatsword and Kirin Style and second a Dexterity build using a Scimitar and Dervish Dance. I built the characters out to level 9 and assumed, both characters took Power Attack and both buffed up before combat with only a Mutagen. Both builds have the Accelerated Drinker trait and walk around with their round one buff extract in hand.
The Dex build was able to afford a +4 Dex belt while the Str Build had to spend that cash on stronger AC items. This means that on the first round of combat the Dex build can drink his extract (Haste), move towards the enemy and activate Studied Combat. The Str build has to drink a Bull's Strength Extract instead, has to activate Studied Combat as a move action and then use Kirin Style as a swift action to.
On round 2 the Dex build got to make 3 attacks while the Str build makes only one solid attack. This is where the Dex build starts to jump ahead.
If we assume the Dex builds third attack always misses, then the builds do about the same damage. If you give the Dex build Arcane Strike then it comes a little ahead of the Strength build. If the third attack hits every other time, then the Dex build does about 25% more damage, or even more with Arcane Strike.
So with a higher crit chance weapon and better first round action economy, the Dex build edges out the Str build on damage when fighting solo. Now if you can get an ally to provide some of these buffs, freeing up your actions on that first round then things get better for a Strength build. The Strength build also has the option of opting for a good reach weapon and going for a combat maneuver build early on, while the Dervish build has its first 3 feats spoken for.
So I saw some comments regarding the class not having a reason to go with a Str build and would like to address those. A Strength build can actually work rather well starting right at first level so long as you make proper use of your ability to quaff extracts.
With a 16 Strength and a Longsword you'll have a +3 on attack rolls, but will deal 1d8+4 damage. Prepare two Shield Extracts and you can have a 20 AC with Lamellar (Leather) armor and a 14 Dex. Really you just need an ally to flank with or to cast an attack boosting spell on you and you're in good shape for combat.
At level 2 pick up a Masterwork sword and your chance to hit goes up to +5 and unless you've got some handy spell casters you may as well keep prepping Shield Extracts.
At level 3 you'll pick up your first Talent, I'd suggest grabbing the ability to make a Strength Mutagen. That way at least once a day you can go up to 20 Strength and gain +2 AC for a combat, dealing 1d8+7 damage with +8 chance to hit. I pick up Power Attack now.
At level 4 you boost up a stat, with my build I started at 15 Int so I pump it 16. I've spent my gold on some AC boosting items by now and should have an 18 AC before buffs. I can now make two Bull's Strength Extracts and a Strength Mutagen, so my Str should be 20 in at least 3 fights today. I'll also be using Studied Combat on targets, so with power attack and holding the Longsword in both hands I deal 1d8+12 damage with a +9 attack bonus.
That's not bad early damage at all, and it'll keep scaling up nicely as I level.
I really hope Precise Companion gets a little something extra, like Psyren suggests. As it stands this would be the first ability I'd be looking to trade out with an Archetype, as I see any ranged Hunter builds picking up Precise Shot anyway.
I like the theme of an Investigator having followers, but I don't really think they need a talent for it. Especially at early levels such a talent could be pretty powerful, and we already have available feats to help out.
Squire - picked up at level 3 with a dip into another class. Fighter (Lore Warden) would be really tempting.
Leadership - grab it at level 7 like anybody else
Dynasty Founder - the perfect way to start off with your Baker Stree Irregulars.
Really what I would support would be a talent that lets you use Intelligence instead of Charisma when calculating your Leadership Score, or simply one that gives you some bonuses to Leadership.
Jason Bulmahn wrote:
1. A is definitely the easiest to use. You have one standard set of (scaling) stats vs the default weapon stats. Up to you to choose which to use.
2. Option A is probably the most balanced too. I'll be honest and admit that I'm tempted to play a Scimitar build just to see how 1d6 18-20 x2 works with the weapon dice increasing every few levels.
3. I find option C the most fun. The idea of giant dice and maximum crit chance is very appealing. I understand why some people don't like the idea though.
Well, she already sort of gets that with Inspiration - spend two points, add a d6 to an attack roll. That's a limited pool at low levels but it can be enough to turn a miss into a hit - and turning into a miss into a hit at that level can mean the difference between living and dying.
And at level 9 you can reduce the cost to 1 point of Inspiration, which winds up being a pretty effective way of ensuring that your Studied Strikes land. A bonus of 4+1d6 on your chance to hit is really nice!
So I started building out a Warpriest for play testing last night and I thought I'd share my initial reactions. Please keep in mind that I usually play in homebrew settings, so I'm working with a different list of deities.
1) I like how the Sacred Weapon works. It really shores up some of the weaker favored weapons but you still have flexibility in your build. In my case, I'm going with the favored weapon (Repeating Crossbow) as the party lacks ranged support.
2) Planning out my attributes is really challenging. I need to plan out a mix of Dex, Strength and Con and can't really dump any of them below 10. I need Wisdom for spell casting and Charisma for Fervor/Channeling. And my character is serving a Goddess with a strong emphasis on Knowledge, so I kinda want some Int too. To be fair though, melee Clerics can face many of these same issues and the buffing spells should help shore up the problems.
3) With some exceptions, I found the minor blessings to be a pretty good mix of options and I actually like them better than most domains. The major blessings could use some more work though, and I'll post details in the Blessings thread later.
On the whole, the class seems pretty solid. I'm slightly worried about having to spread out my attribute points so much. I would suggest to the dev team that some extra testing time with various combat builds would be warranted. I can see dex to damage builds being overly popular with this class. The Guided weapon property might come into the mix too (though that's even more fringe than Agile).
One use of the new rather hefty attack enhancement is to make combat maneuvers. Which is totally appropriate - only there is a scarcity of feats for it.
The way most of my builds work out you basically have to choose between strong offensive boosts or combat maneuvers with your builds. Human Investigators can at least pick up an Improved Maneuver at first level if the want to, but other races will have to decide on either Power Attack at level 3 or an Improved Maneuver.
Either option isn't terrible though, and the fighter-type classes are supposed to have faster progression on Maneuvers anyway.
I wouldn't say arguments about Dervish Dance & Agile not being Core are irrelevant. My current GMs only allow material from hard-cover PF books. The nearest PFS lodge is an hour drive and they only have weekend sessions I could possibly attend about four times a year. This isn't an unusual situation for players to find themselves in.
Choosing +Stat or +Precision allows you play either an offensive strength-based Swashbuckler or a more defensive dexterity-based one, without either option being terrible. It also eliminates the potential of the class simply being used as a dip-class. It also helps out with some of the issues with this class being so MAD if you can play a Dex-based build and not be terrible.
Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
In this case I think the Investigator class works out rather well. While I would still like a ranged option, I understand from previous posts that you'd like the Slayer to have a bit more of a focus on that combat style.
I'll try to get a play test post up later on with detailed encounters, I've been wanting to run these new classes through a fairly challenging home brew campaign I ran for my group last year. The first encounter had them stuck on a ship while poisoned fog rolled across the deck, fighting off waves of enemies(25 total) =P.
Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
Will the levels when bonus die are gained be delayed to every third level, or are they staying at every second level after level 4?
On the whole, I really like this ability and the extra damage winds up making the class a very solid damage dealer. My 16 Strength, Rapier Wielding Elf winds up dealing 1d6 + 5 (Strength) +2 (Power Attack) + 2 (Precision) damage at fourth level, after one round of buffing. He'll get two attacks in with a +9 attack bonus (+3 BAB, +5 Str, +2 Studied Combat, -1 Power Attack), and that second attack will end be a Studied Strike for an extra 1d6 damage. Solid.
Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
That what I was thinking last night too, but just to play Devil's advocate, what if the knowledge check happened at the same step as a Concentration Check roll or a Critical Confirmation roll? You're only adding a single extra D20 (and possibly a D6/D8) and was part of your Studied Strike mechanic. That's only one extra roll every 2-4 rounds, and would wind up being fewer extra rolls than my Magus makes already.
You will be more deadly with a 2-Hander, but you won't be terrible with a one handed weapon or dual wielding. As for how the current weapon options are thematic?
I've read a ton of P.I. fiction, and really the only weapons missing from the list are guns, baked in hand-to-hand combat and the occasional use of a longer sword. Holmes tended to use a lot of guns, and I think he made use of a sap or truncheon. Garret (from Glen Cook's book series) makes use of a sap or club most often, but occasionally pulls out a crossbow or a sword. Bunches of "Steam Punk" novels bring out cane-swords or rapiers, along with crossbows and guns. Oh, and the combat parasol. Might want to add that as a new exotic weapon Paizo devs.
If we go to the more magical end of things we've got Constantine, Dresden and even Sandman-Slim. They tend to make a greater use of magic obviously, but when they mix it up we see hand-to-hand combat, saps, improvised weapons and a ton of guns.
Really what the class needs to round itself out are a gun using archetype and an unarmed fighting archetype along with the ability to use ranged weapons and studied combat. I'd like a couple more weapons added from the get go just to add some variety to class during the early levels.
While I'd agree that an Inquisitor is going to be a stronger fighter, I don't think balance should focus solely on combat prowess. I also don't think the Investigator is exactly a slouch in that department either once Studied Combat and Alchemist class features come into play.
By the way, my play tests have assumed that Studied Combat will last for Int Rounds instead of 1/2 Int Rounds and that the ability is initially a move action. Most of my characters were built with a 15 or 16 Strength.
My Conclusions so far:
2) A round of prebuffing is a requirement before you start combat, but winds up being very effective. My normal pattern has been to spend my move-action to start Studied Combat and my standard action to drink an Extract of Bull's Strength or a Strength Mutagen. Basically this feels like a mini-rage mechanic, where I concentrate on one target but am really able to lay into him before moving on to the next one. I'm not sure if that really matches the theme Stephen is going for, but mechanically it is fun and effective.
3) AC for the class actually feels kind of low and while the offered weapons are good thematic choices, you're somewhat limited in good options. It would be nice if Studied Combat worked with ranged weapons out of the box. I don't think it would be too big of a deal to add Longsword and Buckler proficiency either.
4) The class doesn't fully come online until level 4, and while the first couple of levels can be a little rough they aren't as bad as what I've experienced with the Swashbuckler. I would suggest starting Investigator Talent at level 2 and adding Weapon Trainingm, Finesse Rogue and Unarmed Combat Training (Ninja Trick) to the list of available Rogue talents.
5) While I do find the skill-based Rogue Talents appealing, they generally aren't as strong as an available Alchemist Discovery or one of the new Investigator Talents. I have a hard time seeing anybody picking these up until really late in the game.
Rogue Eidolon wrote:
I've started some number crunching too, using some non-optimized builds. With the current class functionality a Strength-Based build that ignores Charisma (grab Extra Grit) seems like the best way to get good early level damage along with strong damage at later levels.
I like Rogue Eidolon's suggestion. At level 1 & 2 the damage is less than a strength-focused Swashbuckler would have, but the class becomes much less MAD and I can have a slightly higher AC and Initiative. I also don't feel like I *need* to dump Charisma, so I'm less inclined to optimize in that manner.
Damage does start to scale nicely as you level, but not unreasonably so considering the classes you're replacing. The high crit range weapons are still the most appealing, but I could see using a 19-20x2 or a x3 weapon (with the new feat).