I feel that one of my players committed a slightly evil action this weekend and I'd just like to confirm (mostly for him), that it was an evil action.
He says his PC is CG. I say he's definitely not good, maybe CN or Neutral.
Scenario
We're sent into a dungeon where we have to negotiate (or wipe out) a group a goblins. They've been attacking our merchant caravans. The goblins are intelligent and "cultured".
We encounter and beat the son of the "King". I had no problem with the group killing the downed son (in the heat of the moment, even as a 'good' PC), but instead he choose to do the following.
We captured the son, carried him to the King, and then we he didn't like how the negotiation was going, he slit the son's neck and threw him violently in a heap on the ground.
Was that evil? I think it was slightly evil, and just because it was a goblin doesn't justify the complete lack of respect for sentient life and the cruelty involved. I know it wasn't good. What do you think?
It's been my experience that not much (player-based) roleplaying (or what I would call good quality roleplaying) occurs during PFS sessions at conventions. Yes, most GMs roleplay, but what about players?
Before someone points out that their table / players are the exception, yes, you're going to have some odd tables / regions where there's lots of roleplay, but I haven't seen those players yet. During a convention, 7 tables, I'm lucky if I run into one awesome non-GM roleplayer, who actually tries.
Regarding PC optimization:
Btw, please do not bring PC optimization into this thread. The awesome roleplayers that I've seen have sometimes had very optimized PCs. The two qualities are completely unrelated, having a poorly built PC doesn't make you a better roleplayer.
Anyway, I there is a low amount of PFS roleplay for a number of reasons:
1) Strangers: I think it's uncomfortable to roleplay with strangers, compared to the comfort of your home/store with friends.
2) Time limitations: A lot of people say PFS time limitations limit the amount of roleplaying. I agree when it comes to self-indulgent frivolous roleplay/banter, but how does it take more time when you respond (to an in-game question) in a different voice/manner than your own? How does it take more time if you make decisions based on your PC, not yourself? I don't think it does.
3) Metagaming: Sometimes, it's really hard to perform actions that are obviously harmful to yourself or your team, if it's something the PC would do but you the player, would not. It's really hard to determine whether one bad action could lead to a TPK, sometimes it doesn't take much.
4) Combat orientated scenarios: Lots of the scenarios are combat orientated, not roleplay orientated, and/or most of the roleplay can be solved through simple skill checks (and GMs don't require their players to speak).
5) GMs: A lot of GMs expect you to be able to speak as well as your PC, so when you do speak at conventions, it's more likely a GM will slap a negative modifier on your roll than a positive modifier (or not allowing a roll at all!), further reducing the desire to roleplay. Only rarely have I seen a positive (roleplay) modifier applied to a PC. It's much easier to say "Bluff!" and roll, than actually saying something and have your GM not like your response, but it's not as fun. It's a lot safer just rolling if you have the skill.
6) Other Players: Not everyone likes to roleplay. At my last convention, there was some time to kill before the session started, so I started to roleplay with another player. It was just starting to get funny / good, when another player said "Hey guys, can you stop that, you're starting to freak me out.". Nice guy, likeable guy, but he didn't like roleplaying. Of course, that totally broke emersion and I never did roleplaying on that level again in the session. That's not the first time that's happenned (and no I'm not a freak). This is probably what prompted me to write this thread.
Those are my observations, what are yours? Do you agree or is your Gencon and convention experience totally different than mine?
Gencon GMs, how much roleplaying do your players do? This is obviously very subjective (and probably depends on how much roleplaying YOU like to do) but I'd like to know.
Also, I have a few questions for those who like to roleplay:
1) Do you consider part of roleplaying:
A) Using a different voice or mannerism compared to normal?
B) Sometimes making non-optimal (bad) decisions based on "what your PC would do" (or his limitations, like 7 Int)?
2) Do you find you roleplay less at conventions compared to home play? If so, why?
3) How do you think we can improve the level of roleplay at home games? Should players who don't roleplay just be left alone?
4) How do you think we can improve the level of roleplay at conventions? Or should we just leave the roleplaying to the GM, if he even does that?
Thanks for your responses. Oh, and Take 10, evil PCs, Paladins, 7 player tables, Animal Handling, and of course Play Play Play. :)
I've having a problem reporting the players who played a PFS scenario this Saturday. The event is labeled "Sergio - Rescue".
When I go to report, I see the spot where you select the scenario and the GM ID, but it flashes and then it's gone and a blank section is in its place.
If I add the players who played, it won't let me save (probably because I never filled out the GM section). So I can't report.
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First of all, thanks Painlord for taking the initiative for making the survey. While the survey might not 100% accurately represent the PFS community (which I don't even think would be possible/realistic anyway), it will represent the active forum communities opinion, and shed light on what we want in PFS in general. So thank you.
Quote:
How important is it to you that the Pathfinder Society Organized Play have a strong, interesting, immersive storyline told through the scenarios?
That question is a bit ambiguous. Do you mean strong storylines WITHIN a scenario, or strong meta storylines that occur over an entire season or campaign arc? I interpreted it as meaning #2.
Quote:
Do you wish your characters had more involvement/impact in the overall storyline?
The impact your PC has on the "overall storyline" is meaningless unless there are meaningful decisions to be made. For example, your party captures a main leader of the Shadow Lodge (or the PC killer in Dalsine Affair). Does the party:
1) Kill him.
2) Bring him to justice for his crimes (in Absalom).
3) Bring him to the Decemvirate for interogation and for other unknown reasons.
4) Take a bribe from him and release him, for increased scenario gold. (Probably a popular choice, which is hilarious).
5) Let him escape for various reasons (Shadow Lodge agent, feel pity for him, hate Decemvirate, understand his plight, TPK, mistakes, etc).
You see, those are meaningful decisions! And each decision might have a dramatically different impact on the world or further scenarios. Decisions like these might even DRIVE further scenarios to be created.
Right now, how do we really affect the world? Sure, we all play the scenario, but we basically do the same thing. So Paizo knows that 10 groups completed scenario X and 1000 groups played scenario Y. How does that affect the storyline? It doesn't, even if we captured information, because there are no meaningful decisions being made.
The only thing we know right now, are how many PCs of a certain faction have played a certain scenario and their success in that scenario. While that's moderately interesting, I don't think it's interesting enough to change the campaign metaplot. Paizo probably agrees because the winner of the faction race wasn't even revealed until season 3. And even then, the winner of the faction race was kind of meaningless anyway (and no real statistics or interesting demographics were given either (although we know by word of mouth that a lot of Finnish players choose Cheliax and most US players choose Andoran.).
If Paizo does decide to track meaningful decisions or events in their metaplot, these decisions would need to be captured via survey, from a GM. Ideally it would happen when reporting a scenario, but that system is already complex enough (it would be difficult to code, maintain and customize), it would cost Paizo too much money and time. It just doesn't make time/money sense. But surveys make sense, especially if you can only key in Pathfinder IDs a single time and track who is actually performing the data entry.
So my answer is "yes", I would like to make an impact on Golarion, but the only way to have it drive the storyline is that the decisions the PCs make is meaningful.
Also, please note that the season 3 overall campaign storyline is being driven by their product releases.
I guess I'm having the same problem as other people have had in the past. I have a core group of 3-4 players who make almost every session. And then I have a few other players that drop in on occasion and are 2 levels below everyone else.
Once my core gets to level 5 and 6, I'll be unable to run tier 5-9 scenarios without excluding the casuals. At level 7 they'll be forced to play down to subtier 5-6.
I wish there was a (good and fair) way to have a level 4 character play at subtier 5-6. It would make event planning a lot easier.
The only solutions I have think of are:
1) Have the core make new level 1 PCs to level up the casuals. Problem with this is I think the core want to continue on with their current PCs, and there's the possibility for long hiatus for casuals. In other words, it could be pointless.
2) Once the core gets to level 6 and 7, we play subtier 3-7 (or 1-7) exclusively, so everyone can play (except level 1-2 PCs).
3) Maybe recruit more non-casual players and make the casual players sit when we're at 6 players?
Any other ideas? Has anyone else been in this position?
Can anyone tell me what strategies worked and what didn't work?
I can see my core getting to level 7 (and maybe beyond, I think they're coming to Gencon with me this year) and we'll be stuck with 3 PCs at level 7/8 and everyone else at level 3-4. Doh! I don't really want that, since I feel the high levels are the most interesting, and they'd be forced to finish things off with only 3 PCs (which would be dangerous). Not only that, we'd exclude all other players for at least 6 months, which isn't going to happen.
I tried to search for the answer to this question but I couldn't find it.
When you successfully disarm an opponent (using the combat maneuver), the weapon falls to the ground at the opponents feet (if you use a weapon to disarm).
If my PC disarms the opponent with a standard action, can he then reach into the opponent's space and pick his weapon up (assuming he has a free hand or drops his weapon) on the same round (but provoking an AoO on picking the weapon up)?
One of my PCs thinks he can do that, but it seems a little too powerful. I think the intent of the combat maneuver was to deny the opponent the ability of a full attack round while also provoking an AoO from all opponents when picking the weapon up.
When there is faction mission friction, should the GM intervene out-of-game or should the GM provide adequate information to figure out the difference and just let the PCs argue it out?
An example of GM intervention might be to:
A) Remind the players that you should never get conflicting faction missions.
B) Clarifying one of the faction missions to help a player who misunderstands.
For example, two factions want the same item (for their faction mission) and one faction is mistaken (which might not be their fault since the description was vague).
What do experienced GMs find works best? Let the players argue and work it out themselves (even though it could devolve into anger and wanting PVP)? Or resolve it by the GM providing out-of-game explanations (to keep the peace)? Or some other solution?
First of all, I really enjoyed reading this scenario and think it could be a lot of fun. I enjoyed the open-endedness of the roleplaying opportunities with the goblins and other NPCs, both contained in the scenario and created in my imagination.
Having said that, I think the quality of the scenario is highly dependent on the GM (and the GMs preparation). I think Frostfur is one of those scenarios that is similar to MotTMermaid, in that the quality of the scenario is based purely on the "fluff" that the GM provides. Hopefully I can do it justice.
Also, the faction missions are well done, didn't feel like they were added on at the last second, potentially have out-of-the-box solutions, and aren't hand fed to you.
Before talking about what fluff changes and roleplaying moments I've created with the gobbos, I'd like to go over problem areas (that I foresee).
Problems and Concerns :
1) Ferry: In Harvest's End, there was one solution that was missing, and to me it's the most obvious. At night, when everyone is sleeping, why couldn't the PCs hijack the ferry and get across the Rimeflow River? Sure, it would create "an incident", but it would be a much better solution compared to killing Rimetusk imo.
Is there any reason this wouldn't work? Isn't a medieval ferry just a large raft with a long pole to push them across? If not, what does it look like and what skills are needed to make it operate?
2) Goblin Package: What's stopping the PCs from knocking out the goblins (with nonlethal damage), tying them up and having the Fighter/Barbarian just carry them to Trollheim (besides being cruel)? Goblins only weigh 40 pounds each, so encumbrance is certainly not stopping them. They only really need to be able to strap the goblins onto a large porter's backpack.
I can't see any reason why this wouldn't work, however I think it would spoil a lot of the fun of the scenario.
3) Slow Travel: Are there any penalties for travelling extra slow in this scenario? For example, if the party is foraging, is heavily encumbered, etc? What would you suggest?
4) Faction Missions: Some reviewers mentioned that there were conflicts with the factions missions. Can anyone please describe them? The only conflict I can see is with the Grand Lodge and the rest of the group, but I think that's conflict in a good way.
Or is the reviewer talking about the potential conflict between Taldor and Cheliax, because one of the two doesn't understand the faction mission correctly?
All in all, I think this is going to be a great scenario. Any feedback from GMs who have run it would be welcome. I heard there was some negative feedback from Gen Con?
I was wondering if I could get everyone's thoughts on how to pace a PF scenario well, what the standard pacing should be (and how to track it), and how to get things moving back on track if you're late.
I think starting the session quickly is the most important thing, to get and keep momentum. However, many things conspire against this. For example, your gaming sessions starts at 9am. You know how it is... mustering, people arriving at your table late (home or convention game), players fumbling around. Maybe the table is technically read by 9:15am? When do you actually start the session? When do you feel the mission speech section should be complete? How do you speed up the answer / question part of that (or do you bother)? How do you control item purchases (5 minutes tops?)?
For home games, what do people feel is the best way to start the game? When you give a start time, is that the time you actually start or do you start 30 minutes after? What about late comers? And chronic late comers?
And then of course there's the middle section. Do you work out beforehand that the final encounter needs X amount of time? And then look at your watch?
Personally, I run rich games (and I like to talk a lot as GM), which is good immersion / roleplay, but things tend to run longer. So the question (for immersion GMs) is "What should we speed up?" (if anything).
PS. Also, how do you handle players that have to leave early? What if they technically do 3 of the encounters but aren't there for the final encounter? What if they don't complete a faction mission but someone at the table (of the same faction) completes it for them?
I have some questions regarding the Classic PF Scenarios run at Gencon 2011.
1) How is the quality of storytelling and DMing compared to more "prepared" scenarios? The same (as a prepared scenario), slightly worse, or horrible (long delays while playing while DM reads scenario and/or major mistakes made that result in a TPK)?
2) How does it work in practice? If I sign up to one of these sessions, what are the chances you can request a scenario and everyone will be ok with it? (I'm talking "in general", it's obviously going to vary). Does everyone who signs up have a request and a lot of compromising has to be done?
Basically, I'm trying to figure out if I should be playing the "Shades of Ice" series or whether I should be doing some classics, classics that I'll be DMing for my home players in the near future. I'd rather play some of these scenarios first before I read them, for the fun value.
I'm DMing Throaty Mermaid in 2 weeks, and part of me wishes I had the chance to play it first. Ah well! I'm sure other DMs have had similar regrets.
One thing that would really help me out when I'm preparing scenarios is that the maps in the scenarios are available in the correct size (25 mm squares) without spoilers in them.
In other words:
- No secret doors or secret rooms
- No markings where creatures should be
- No trap markings
- No text to mark the "big boss room"
- No other spoilers
At Gencon, all of my DMs used the printouts from the PDF, and all of them had spoilers on them. It's pretty hard not to metagame when it says secret room right on the map! And before we enter the room, I know exactly how many opponents are in the room and where they'll be, because it's on the map!
Right now I have to manually edit the spoilers out and enlarge the entire map and then print it out. While it's doable, it's also time consuming and if you have the original maps, it's probably a lot easier for you to take objects away, etc and have the map in the proper size for us.
I hope this is possible to do, even if it isn't in the main PDF, it sure would help.
Thanks,
Jason
PS. If any fans have redone maps, maybe you could post the location of your JPGs in the relevant scenario thread.
I'm going to DM at a convention on October 17th and I read that DMs sometimes get scenarios before they are released if they're going to have them for a convention?
Is this true and if so, who do I need to contact and what do I need to do? For this particular convention, which one will I get?
Anyway, please let me know so I can tell the organizers asap. Thanks,
Regarding days jobs, we can use Professions and Crafting skills to make some money while not adventuring. This makes sense.
However, if you are a Cleric (or Druid), isn't your best day job (that involves very low risk) healing people? I'd think that with spells like Remove Disease, Speak with Dead, Remove Blindness/Deafness, Heal skill, and the multitude of other healing spells that not only would it be in high demand, but you'd make a hell of a lot more money from healing than crafting wicker baskets for your day job (even if you were to donate a portion to your church).
I know the "day job" rule was designed to make Profession and Crafting skills more useful, but in the context of a day job, it makes sense to allow healing spells and the Healing skill to generate income since they should be low risk and in high demand. A single Remove Disease earns a whooping 150g, why can't your character (and religion) ever benefit? At a minimum, you'd think that characters could at least use the Heal skill to earn money instead of Profession or Crafting skills. Maybe other skills should also be allowed to earn income as well?
It's something I've been thinking about and I thought it would be interesting to see what other people think.
I've been reading a number of threads lately about people playing Pathfinder games at conventions where the group ends up with a really strange mix of classes.
One game had 4 rogues!, 1 fighter and 1 monk. Another game had 4 clerics and 2 wizards, lol.
Does that happen a lot at conventions? I'm just curious.
For me I don't think it will matter since I'll be heading to Gencon 2009 with characters covering almost everything: cleric, 2 fighters, wizard. I expect conventions to be somewhat like MMOs in the sense that there is a lack of healers.
Anyway, just wanted to see what the majority of people play at conventions and what I can expect regarding class mix. Maybe see if anyone has any stories they can share.
Toronto to Gen Con 2009 – Looking for a trip buddy(ies)
Hey there,
I’ve always wanted to go to Gen Con ever since I was a kid and I’ve decided that this is the year for my first Gen Con!
If possible, I’d like one or more people to share the trip experience. This means sharing the cost for the gas and/or hotel and possibly sharing some driving. Hopefully we get along and can hang out at Gen Con together as well.
The drive to Gen Con Indianapolis is around 10 hours from Toronto. I’d be doing most/all of the driving and we’d take my car (which is new) and very gas efficient (total gas cost should be around $160 which means $80 each with one other person).
I’d also like to get to know some people from the GTA since I’m thinking of starting (or joining) a Pathfinder (D&D 3.75) or 3E game sometime in the late summer or perhaps early fall. I'm a really busy guy so I was thinking once a month, but if I join someone else game I might be able to a little more.
A bit about me, I’m 37, professional, fun to be around and fairly young looking (you be the judge). Besides roleplaying (which I’m getting back into after ditching MMOs), I’m into health and nutrition, running, and some video games.
Anyway, just to be upfront, I’m going to be slightly selective and I’m going to pick people I think I’d get along with (20 hours is a long drive).
Anyway, please let me know if you're interested in Gen Con or an ongoing Pathfinder campaign.
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