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1) There are feats that are as good or better (when in combination with other chain feats) than don't depend on someone else.
2) Non-teamwork feats don't depend on someone else, so you're not stymied as often. It's like Magic the card game, why would you depend on a 2-3 card combination when you can get the same results from a single card? You're setting yourself up for failure.
3) Don't depend on others. It would suck if that player didn't show up or left the gaming group.
Despite the drawbacks, not sure why they're not used *sometimes*.
Andrew L Klein wrote:
Sure it can kill your character, but that just means your strategy needs to change, as it probably will with every adventure path.
What strategy do you use when you’re permanently dead by being one-shotted (through bad luck)? Raise Dead is tier 5.
PFACG isn’t a “one shot” game, it’s a campaign, and perma-death does more to destroy campaigns than anything else. That’s why there are “save points” in video games or there's no penalty in restarting. Even in Pathfinder Society, death is extremely rare and permanent death is even rarer. If perma-death isn’t rare in the APCG OP, it’s not going to be popular. Period.
Because of perma-death, I dislike any card that forces you to discard from the top of your deck, especially if it happens regardless of success.
Let’s face it, OP is already hard enough: support characters don’t get the cure spells they need (which is one of the many reasons Kyra is so popular), and other characters get non-optimal weapons and spells compared to campaigns. In OP, the odds are already stacked against us. We can’t “fudge”. Are we going to get mythic surges to help us with Wrath? So yeah, perma-death and not even being able to gauge your risk level (because of discards from the top of the deck) is not fun.
That doesn't sound fun. Discarding as part of the encounter is what kills characters. 1 card... OK, but not 3.
I was hoping Wrath would be more challenging in terms of failing scenarios, but nothing kills fun like a dead character. Will reserve judgment until next week.
I was just curious what people have seen, on average, with convention play for OP. (APCG developers can feel free to post anonymously on their alts :) ) Yes, this is probably colored by the players that attended, but nevertheless I’m just interested in what you’ve seen.
How many players did you have at your table? Did you ever have a solo or 2 player table? How often did you have a 6 player table?
What level was the player skill? Better than expected? Less than you expected?
Did anyone roleplay? :)
Did anyone at the table misunderstand a rule and then have it corrected by playing OP? (I think this is one of the greatest benefits of OP).
Were players teamwork orientated and did players discuss choices (at critical points) or did everyone "do their own thing"? Did players ask for blessings at critical points (or where they were in trouble) or did they just roll and fail without asking for help?
Did players try to work as a group or did some players "go rogue" and start exploring locations that benefitted them in terms of boons (but perhaps they couldn’t close the location)?
Did you ever have time to harvest locations for loot (by not closing a location on purpose)?
Were there any characters archetypes that were played more than others? Were Seoni and Kyra really common? :) Were any class decks more common than others? Were any class decks rarely seen?
Were healers frequent or were people flexible enough someone would play one if no one else was playing support? Were there ever too many support characters at a table? Did you ever play in a group with no support characters (and were you successful)?
I imagine players are very flexible with what characters they play in adventures 1+2, but in adventures 4+ do the trends in the paragraph above still hold true?
I'll be responding with my thoughts after Origins, which will be my first official session with OP with strangers.
Was there anything else you were surprised by?
Just curious. Please don’t take this post too seriously. Thanks.
While I fully realize campaign loot and boons are more powerful, I thought it would be more interesting to pick from the class decks.
I'd also classify some of the promo cards as some of the most powerful cards in the game as well.
Weapon: Invigorating Kukri (recharges to heal). For characters with a lot of weapons (and probably no healing), the flexibility this weapon offers is great.
Spells: Bewilder (more explorations) and Life Leech (arcanist heal spell).
Armor: Reflecting Buckler. Reduces almost all damage by 2 with the option to reveal and recharge it.
Items: Staff of Heaven and Earth. Diverse, can buff combat or remove barriers.
Allies: Fortune-Teller. The ultimate exploration ally.
Blessings: Nethys in a 6 player game (how can you beat exploration, scouting and evasion in a single card?), Lamashtu (or any blessing that will buffs your combat) in 4 player, Gozreh solo/duo.
Might be good to do another of these threads since people’s opinions have probably changed by now. But whatever!
Bard: S&S Lem.
Cleric: Tough call, this might be my overall favorite class deck. Tarlin.
Fighter: Runelord Valeros. He’s just better.
Ranger: Agna, because she’s a beast and can run wild through a location deck.
Rogue: Wu Shen, for style points.
Sorcerer: Amaryllis. She never fails because she steals everyone’s luck. Nuff said. :)
Wizard: Not a fan, so it’s hard to call any of them a favorite.
I was thinking, maybe it's a really basic problem with the way you're computing combat or skill checks. Maybe reading through the new Wrath of the Righteous play guide would help (or at least verify that you're doing everything correctly), it has lots of examples.
Like the others said, the only other option is for you to tell us exactly what is in each person's deck and how you typically play.
Andrew Betts wrote:
I have a home group that isn't 100% consistent. When we replay scenarios, I often use a secondary character, which is from a class deck and I use the class deck rules on constructing and upgrading it.
Using class decks for secondary characters has proved to be very useful, since it doesn't take cards away from the primary characters, and allows me to following along with the AP.
He asked my opinion, I gave it. Kyra class, Kyra WotR, Zarlova in that order.
If faced with a decision and you can't make up your mind, flip a coin. If you can't accept the result, that's a decision. If you can accept the coin's decision, either you picked correctly or the decision never mattered in the first place. Either way the decision is over in 1 minute.
What Pluvia said, although I love Zarlova (in a campaign), I don't love her in OP, there's just not enough spell support for her playstyle imo.
So I'd play Kyra hands down. The question is, which version of Kyra?
I'd stay away from spellcasting Kyra for the same reason I'd stay away from Zarlova, although Kyra has more utility and would be better.
I could be wrong, but I feel that season 1 will feature more combat compared to season 0, which favors weapon combat as opposed to spell combat. In addition, with demonic immunities, spell combat might not be the best idea in season 1.
Having said that, I'd pick "class deck" Kyra because she's an absolute beast, extremely powerful.
Btw, I think Kyra (and clerics) are a great choice for season 1, with high wisdom.
Mark Hoover wrote:
Am I too soft on my players?
As long as you and your players are having fun, then you're not too soft.
For me, combat is fun, but the best parts of the game are about storytelling and decision making. These are the things you remember years later.
I wouldn't compare yourself to other GMs, some GMs have the problem of making their fights too difficult. When every fight is a slugfest, it gets tedious. And it makes the boss fights less special.
My players in one campaign said 'Why are we here? This is far beyond our capabilities. We're just barely making it. Not fun'.
Other GMs make things too hard and then fudge. When you fudge, your players know, and everyone reacts to it differently. I know my players don't like it.
So really, there is no right or wrong answer, there is only a right and wrong answer for you and your group.
Poison Blast is so powerful however, there's no way I'm not adding it to my Sorcs deck, even for Wrath. I'll be able to use it on *something*. When playing a campaign you get a lot of options, but in OP there aren't a lot of spell options, you take what you can get.
But yeah, probably won't be playing Wu Shen in Wrath.
1) Not knowing your (modified) +Hit, damage, saves, and AC. Players should have a Q card with their most up-to-date stats imo. Makes life easier.
2) Not being ready for your turn and ready to drop the dice. Not paying attention during other player's turns.
3) Shaking your dice too long before rolling, or not rolling all/most of your dice in one roll.
4) Not knowing your spells and not ready to select one before your turn.
He never got a chance to cast a spell or use an SLA. All characters, the BBEG included, were 9th level. After a 5 hour session and weeks of planning, this was how the story arc ended. I hated it.
The problem is simple, you have a 9th level party and you gave them an CR 8 encounter (9th level NPC). That fight is considered "easy", so it's not surprising that's exactly what happened.Designing Encounters
Your BBG fights should have a CR of APL + 2 or even APL +4 (depending on your group's optimization).
I've never had a problem challenging my party or characters, if anything I have a hard time not killing them (RAW without home rules). It shouldn't be hard to challenge characters in Pathfinder.
Pathfinder is a great system. I recommend being a player in organized play for a different point of view and new experiences.
And on the topic, I really do wish they would have added a power to the card, something along the lines of, "This card is considered to be a Blessing of Sarenrae."
Although they can't go back and change the RotRL cards, I'm not sure why they can't just make a change to the online PDFs, if the intent is to use this blessing with Kyra's recharge power.
Although it's probably not a rule, I think the designers intended for the promo cards to be unique within a deck. I don't think the intent was to have 5 Droogamis in Lini's deck, 5 blessings of the Dawnflower in Kyra's deck, or 5 Tankards in Valeros' deck.
Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
Evil doesn't necessarily mean stupid.
Exactly. To further that point, the CE character might view everyone else as his friends, and although some of them are misguided, at no point would he want to kill them. It's possible that he's just a guy who wants to do things his way in the most ruthless/efficient way possible. The CE character could even add a great deal to the party dynamic and make things interesting (without it devolving into character killing).
Yes, good and evil can work together, it happens in my company everyday. :)
1) Players usually get bored of their characters and want to play something else before we get there.
2) Players in the group move away and new players would prefer playing a new campaign.
3) Rocket tag: Based on initiative, either you kill or be killed. Damage just doesn't scale at all with hit points. It's not fun.
#1 and #2 are two reasons I like PFS so much.
No no no. That very old description of alignment is part of the problem. It's the reason why so many people hate alignment and other hate players when they play certain alignments. I'd rather not play with alignment if that's how Pathfinder defined them. Luckily the game has improved since then.
When I was growing up, I always used a GMPC, but I made sure that:
Yes, it’s more fun to have a “PC” of your own, it’s like you’re playing too. No one objected because I did it right and it was more fun for me at the time, but I realize now that the game is better without a GMPC.
I don’t do it anymore because:
I just read this.
Does that mean all the Wrath games will only be demos (usually 30 minutes) or will they be full 2 hour games? And I'm also guessing they will not be available for OP credit?
And I'm assuming there will be no S&S OP games?
Might have to redo Origins schedule based on this info. Damn. :(
Anyone else have a Scrappy alignment at their table that's not Chaotic Neutral?
There's nothing wrong with either chaotic good or chaotic neutral, just the way people portray them.
In D&D video games, you'll note that many of the most beloved and enjoyable characters are chaotic alignments. In Baldur's Gate 2, Minsc (and hamster), Korgan, Jan, all chaotic. And all playable.
Most players don't really understand alignment anyway, it's not meant to be a straight jacket or a way to typecast a character's each and every moment of their life, it's just a short hand for their GENERAL attitudes.
I play both chaotic neutral or chaotic good quite often at PFS tables. Apparently not many people know how to do it well. Chaotic doesn't mean crazy. Sigh.
Jason S: Yes, I could sit down and rewrite the entire system to suit my needs. I could. But then I'd be a game designer.
I'm pretty sure you don't need to be a game designer to implement a few of your suggestions, like using 3d6 for ability scores or removing feat prerequisites.
I agree that high level play should be revised, the question is revised to what? That's a thread on it's own.
I'm actually more on board with what Bugleyman is saying. Simplify, simplify, simplify wherever possible.
Everyone has an opinion on how the game could be more tailored to their personal tastes. The good part is you're free to make up whatever house rules you like.
You realize feats without trees are what actually make it possible to have OP combinations right?
I'm pretty happy with my library of APs, scenarios, and not feeling like I need to relearn a new system.
We're still 5-10 years off from a new edition at least (I hope). The entire reason I like and respect Paizo is that they're not trying to edition me to death like other companies.
Unchained is likely a beta for what it could look like. But I'm a lot happier that it's just an option right now.
I really like this show and can't wait until the 2nd season. Loving the special effects.
The main problem some people have with the show is that they feel some of the characters are stupid, but I feel that a lot of people (in real life) are stupid, selfish and illogical, so it really wouldn't surprise me. I just shrug and try not to let it bother me (like the clerk in the convenience store hahaha).
The Master could look better but he's acceptable. He was scarier when he was just a pile of rags with tentacles for a face and lightning fast.
It only bothers me as far as the fact that it creates an inconsistency between the RPG and the card game. It really doesn't bother me all that much, particularly because I personally have no intention of playing Seelah. The paladin has been my second to least favorite class since as far back as I can remember (and I've been playing the "world's oldest fantasy RPG" for over 2 decades now). Only the bard ranks lower on my list.
Haha, me too, I've tried to play Paladins and can't. However in the card game Seelah and bards are actually quite good. I treat the RPG and ACG completely separately.
As I said, I never played Pathfinder RPG so I had no idea it was that focused on combat... and I'm afraid you're correct, Pathfinder is not something my group would enjoy since we prefer to have a balance between combat and role-playing [which is probably why we also enjoy various Storyteller RPG's].
I think it depends entirely on the GM, the gaming group, the scenario, or the campaign. You could have an entire session about roleplaying if you really wanted. Even though Pathfinder society is typically action orientated, I've had an entire 5 hour session punctuated by a single combat.
Just an FYI, there's a problem with the registration system, a lot of games aren't showing up when I do a search on a specific day.
For example, pretend I wanted to register for "Beacon Below" on Thursday at 7pm. You'll get different results depending on how you search.
1) The most common option is to filter the view for "pathfinder" on Thursday (no time filter). Beacon and none of your non-core events that start at 7pm are returned.
2) Filter the view for "pathfinder" on Thursday for games after 6pm. Only core games are returned.
3) Filter the view for "beacon" on Thursday. Nothing is returned.
4) Filter the view for "beacon" on all days. All 3 "Beacon Below" events are returned, including Thursday night.
I imagine that's why there's a lot of open tables. I didn't try any searches beyond this. Since the core events are working correctly, I'm guessing there's a difference between them and non-core events.
This is all solid advice, but there is another obligation I am having trouble with. I am going to run under Society and I am not sure what to do with the Chronicle Sheet. Award him the experience for (not) taking in the adventure, or assume it under the rules of 'Dead' and not award him the experience or any of the items for the adventure completion?
Really there's no point in filling out a chronicle sheet with zeroes, it's a waste of everyone's time.
If the character doesn't want to participate or take orders from their superiors, eventually they're kicked out of society. Make another character who actually wants to be a Pathfinder.
If the player doesn't want to make a character that wants to be a Pathfinder, he's being a jerk and should just be kicked from the table.
I'd explain the PFS campaign to him, what it means to be a Pathfinder, and that it's not homebrew campaign. It's action packed and there are time limits to accomplish objectives.
We don't know him, so we don't know what the problem is. All you can do is explain the game you're trying to play and if he doesn't want to play it, go find something else to do.
Well, I don't own the PACG, yet. I was just doing some research before I buy. I'm planning on getting the upcoming Wrath of the Righteous set instead of Rise of the Runelords, and I agree with the previous statement that the new Seelah can't be as easily converted to use Charisma while maintaining balance.
The box set that you purchase is irrelevant. You can easily download and use the Rise of the Runelords Seelah if you want. There wouldn't be any balance issue with RotRL Seelah. Even Wrath Seelah, it wouldn't be significant. It obviously bothers you since you asked about it.
Core practically killed our PFS. It very much alienated both the older hats and the new players. We used to have enough people that we oft had to go to three tables...sometimes four. But ever since they tried instituting core, we've barely had one table if that much, and the core games were as barren as a desert...could see tumbleweed blowing around the store.
The problem I see is that communities trying to introduce too many core tables. Should only be 10-25% of tables, max. So in your case, 1 core table every 2-4 weeks.
Instead it seems like 50% of the tables at some events are core. This will fracture the player base similar to what would happen with a new edition of Pathfinder.
Core is a great idea but it's not being implemented very well.
If it's a problem for your store events, just ignore Core, or reduce it to 1 table every 2-4 weeks.
Question, do PFCG volunteers also get to play the game they're setting up. Or are they spectators usually?
I could see it being fun if we could also join in (making it a 5 player plus GM maximum table), but not so much fun otherwise. My main concern is keeping track of my cards.
I'm not going to volunteer for this event, but will probably do so in the future if I also get to play.
For your home game, I don't see why it would hurt switching Divine from +2 Wis to +1 Chr. The Paladin class deck won't be out for months and there's nothing that says you have to use that variant character.
Having the Divine skill under Wis is actually a benefit to Seelah since too many of the best characters already focus on charisma. Sorcs, bards, oracles are all popular and I find that when there are too many characters focusing on CHR, they feel redundant. There are only so many locations that have allies.
Jason, you do realize the post you responded to is almost a year and a half old, right?
I agree. But this isn't about success/failure, it's about turning people away from the game.
I know people who were introduced to PFS through Bonekeep and while they had a laugh and died (which was expected with pregens), did they pursue PFS further? No. It was just a one shot experience.
Also, even if you survive Bonekeep, it can still leave a bad taste in your mouth. Definitely the case with me, I've done hardly any PFS in 2 years because of it.
Anyway, enough replying to necro threads for today.