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Just don't forget that by making it a standard action, specifically, you'd lose VS compatibility. So you don't wanna be installing that nerf without being damn sure the rest of the revamping gets done (protip: they'll gladly do the nerf part, but the other bit would never get implemented) as otherwise it's just another nail in the coffin for firearm builds.
(holy thread necromancy!)
Evasion should never be explained as being in any way shape or form natural once it gets to those levels. It's doing a disservice to whatever equips it, and reinforces the unfortunately-common "Either A WIZARD DID IT or you need to limit it to reality" misconception.
Quite obviously in order for a high level rogue (not exactly high up on the list of "supernaturally powerful entities" in Pathfinder - at least not mechanically) to evade this stuff, which by raw he/she CAN, there's at least some simple phase-out or desynch-drive effect at work. No reactions are used/expended, no actions lost, no time wasted, no change in coordinates or vectors.
So come up with something for the character - anything, but don't just ignore it until you run into the "could he, would he, in a fridge? would he, could he from a bridge?" problem. Perhaps this will mean a small handful of situations where it works but by RAW would not, and a few where it doesn't work by by RAW should have, but it will be 'their' ability.
As for nukes use that log function achan_hiarusa did, but in a few stages, all of which deal full damage to objects.
The Flash deals quarter that damage as fire, quarter as untyped or divine or something (it's not all fire, as it's pretty much the entire spectrum for a moment). No save, cover% = avoidance% of the damage though.
The 'fireball' is fire damage (and its range/radius improves at a somewhat faster rate than the actual explosion) with reflex half IF you have half or better cover. Cheap cover could be worse than none, however, as that cheap copper door may melt upon your hands.
The Hydrodynamic Front itself is Bludgeoning damage, reflex half, but anything destroyed by it continues in that direction for some distances as deadly shrapnel/debris, like cars in a good hurricane might do.
Finally there's the fallout, and you add that radiation damage to your sheet, keeping up to 10% of accumulated radiation damage (IF you can heal away the rest with magic,etc that is) marked on your character. Fort Saves to avoid radiation sickness and/or the beginnings of horrific magical cancer every time the current(don't forget the accumulated base) goes higher than your base save (ie; you'd have to roll Fort due to a chance of failue).
Of course, we should probably look into the long-term effects of running around with a XASER they fire a dozen times a day for a few years, but it might be best to not go too far here.
I should probably rephrase myself a little better. It was early, I kneejerked a little.
It's not so much an issue of the double-barrels versus other firearms as firearms vs not-firearms. Just like the Minotaur Double Crossbow is the only double crossbow your dentist every should approve, a lot of the single-barrel guns have... issues in keeping up with other ranged attackers.
I think that without far deeper houseruling than "just let those models there work once a turn", it's just too much effort to approach the capabilities of 'the better ranged option' and be able to keep up. Something like a Marksman(Sniper) with trench gunner 3 and a deep-crystal weapon is about as good as a non-mythic VS is gonna get, for example, and even that takes a double-barrel VS to keep up with "I bought a bow." Doubles as a standard would pretty much wreck that type of build.
Though I agree single-barreled guns need far more help than doubles to be relevant.
The double shot issue seems like it would be easy to fix with a ruling that firing both barrels of a double barreled gun requires a standard action
Actually, as that would basically make the doubles utterly f***ing worthless by mid levels, it's a terrible idea.
The best balancing act I've seen (and one we'd actually assumed was actually the rule from the beginning at my table) was that, like Manyshot (yes yes, I know "no one except Composite Longbow, lord and savior, you shall field no other ranged before Composite Longbow" blah blah blah) the double-fire's just once per attack cycle, after which the regular BAB kicks in since obviously you'd be getting way more shots per turn out WITH A BLOODY SEMI-AUTOMATIC if you were able to act THAT quickly without wasting time on packing new cartridges down the front of the barrel between every shot.
Based on the retracted free action FAQ it seemed like Paizo wanted to limit firearm reloads pretty severely and prevent Gunslingers from finding ways to sneak in more attacks than their BAB would otherwise allow.
Nah, it was a blatant attack on everything not-bow judging from the exact method of backpedalling that was applied when that debacle happened.
Somebody noticed that not-double-double-ancient builds could in some cases reach half, sometimes even three quarters of "so you picked up a composite bow, rapid, manyshot and dead-aim", outputs despite 'only' requiring specific classes, class abilities and several more feats dedicated to it due to not-a-bow. They went ballistic and the unacceptable sudden imbalance and backed it by a game designer - well known for having 20+ superhuman agility/grace/reflexes* - getting tangled up with some string bits like a cat. Not anyone's finest moment there.
*I'm certainly in no way saying anyone else here may be that dextrous. But those gunslinger characters ARE. We're not.
Let's reiterate though that the firearm rules are needlessly bad BOTH WAYS! Touch AC certainly throws the usual "see he's more difficult because he wears full plate instead of leather like the other orcs" tactic into the bin, which utterly ruins some GMs (and some written adventure encounters), but other than Touch-AC, firearms are ALSO a worse weapon than crossbows.
Yes. Crossbows. In Pathfinder. Worse. Think about that for a second. When not using Touch-AC, they're a crappier crossbow with base prices in the "magic item" range before you even toss in a +1. Unless you're dual-wielding ancient (NOT ADVANCED OR TECH) double-barreled pistols with 24 dex, some weapon cords and probably three hands, your DPR will never match the almighty god of "manyshot". More feat or class-ability-intensive too.
Realism, that's a little harder to swallow if it's ever given for anyone running anywhere on Golarion. You know, the world with the crashed spaceships, the lasers (speaking of, those are actually decently balanced for a techslinger as long as you can avoid being starved of charges), the big angry robots, the reality-rapist "full caster" classes, the dragons, and the guy with an adamantine longbow using magical superthreads to let a four foot tall eighty pound woman loose four-hundred-pound draw-weights with pinpoint accuracy three hundred yards away at a rate of more than one shot per second, and the Planes of Elemental Anything BECAUSE PLANES.
Don't get me wrong; I certainly back going "hold on here, we're waaaay backwards in this campaign. No composites, no guns yet either" if that's the campaign, but it's worth pointing out that very often, the banning choices are far more in line with delusional psychosis, PFS, or the dreaded "I heard from a friend of a friend of a web forum". Kinda like how people ban Path of War and Psionics because they're oh-so-unbalanced and gamebreaking compared to a badly built non-paragon blaster sorcerer of a few levels less than they.
After all, broken happens at both ends: Would a well-built gunslinger make your hand-crossbow-rogue feel pretty worthless in comparative ranged output? Absolutely. Would anything else? Pretty much everything!
A gunslinger without evasion (and flight and multiple vision modes and a shield-hardpoint + grapple/item/climbing hand and weapons one size larger than they are that count as an additional size above that and a psicrystal scout drone and free all-day-every-day astral repair and Stalwart and energy resistance) is no gunslinger at all!
Nah, that's the part where I have to disagree. The core book double crossbow is a mess of worthlessness. A "trap option" in every sense, which I have great difficulty believing was anything but deliberate design. It requires more training and feats than a simple weapon, performs far worse, and completely breaks down the moment additional attacks are available for other options even though multiple attacks are the primary method of growth for martial damage dealers. It is also very expensive.
Some look at the handful of exotic weapons that are particularly powerful and say "They have to be better because they require additional feats and training to use effectively". They look at the repeating crossbows and say "Well crossbows are a simple weapon so they must not be as good", get reminded that these are exotics, and "oh well not all weapons are created equal lol".
Fact is, game systems require consistency. The standard Double only works to hamper and hold-back a character, and no amount of "but you can still choose it for roleplay reasons" makes how badly it screws the character okay. The Minotaur Double may not be ideal, but it works within the system and its use can grow along a character.
That it does. The non-Minotaur version should be trashed/ignored/derided/mocked and permanently replaced.
Basic version being minotaur sized would in fact be large already. Fine if you're large or if you've got Powerful Build, but otherwise you will require a smaller version.
There was a minotaur book (very small/short) that had the crossbow. I do not recall if prices were listed, but given the abberant feat requirements and cost of the basic double, "same price" is already more than enough
Gunslingers are not balanced.
Only a handful of your levelling resources and equipment make you a powerful, dedicated archer.
An entire build of class and feat choices makes you a louder, generally inferior at-best, less versatile/capable character who "deals damage at range" - and unless reducing your capabilities even further by using advanced firearms, barely 1/4 the range of a bow's first range increment. Firearms are also saddled with starting prices in the "magic weapon" range.
If just bypassing regular armor bonuses in point-blank range completely breaks a GM's encounters, there's something seriously wrong with the GM's ability to create encounters. Unfortunately that says a lot about how easily some adventure path encounters can be shattered by a firearm.
I never said otherwise. However, +3 set of Crystal Spaulders for example comes in at 50,400gp, which is just barely below the total cost of a Mithral Medium +7 (such as a breastplate). Still has some room for "customization" of its own, and more importantly actual armor can offer some significant savings thanks to different pricing/value;Skin Form, certain customizations are quite expensive to equip, but not too bad in armor bonuses, and vice-versa.
Yeah I mentioned those explicitly.
Crystal Spaulders are one of the rare trap options in DSP books. Except perhaps in the specific case of playing a Juggernaut archetype, It'll always be more points and less armor than if you simply enchanted some mithral medium armor (mithral: No proficiency? No ACP? No problem!) and expended your Cpts elsewhere. Gets fairly expensive, too, cashwise...
Inversely, the crystal hilts,etc combined with Fighter's Blade allow things like the metaforge to shine where before giving up more than 2-3 levels of soulblade was about as bad as giving up a bunch of full-caster levels when playing one!
Insanely High Magic:
Well, that last one is more of a joke or to point out how ridiculous some of the 'realism' arguments that occasionally show up for this game can be, but nevertheless Golarion IS somewhere betweeen "Dynasty Warriors", "G-Gundam" and "Marvel Universe" for magic.
Level 3 Metaforge is usually where you want to stop. 4-6 levels of Aegis (to taste) and Student of the Astral Suit, Fighter's Blade, wear skin form with actual magical armor, and the rest of your levels in (usually gifted blade) soulknife. The metaforge abilities are kinda 'meh' beyond 3rd, as you get more abilities/mileage out of splitting levels between the two classes than you do using the hybrid PRC.
Effectively what you need to avoid is a situation where you cannot achieve +9 or +10 enhancement total with your mindblade/bolt/whatever by 20th when a crystal hilt/bow/whatever is added in. Not having a good handful of blade/bolt skills is also a drag.
Not because campaigns usually get so high, but because if your progression wouldn't get you there in the long run, it means you're behind the entire time, and neither Aegis nor Soulknife offers accuracy bonuses or training. If everyone's running around with +2 speed or keens, and you're still stuck with a non-special +1, AND you're paying for that +1 with class abilities, you've basically pigeonholed into playing catch-up. At that point why aren't you using even a fellow player's leftovers or a weapon of your own?
The occult book's quite Vancian. Also doesn't help that like most things of "has vancian vs has not vancian" results in the usual balance of those two things. We're expecting what, "tier 5 at best if all the rumored changes go through" out of the kineticist for example? Experience tells us that what we saw in the playtest will be more or less what we get from the book, though there'll be a few extra spells available.
It was a good move on Paizo's part not to use the term psionics though; that word's been dragged through the mud (quite unfairly after 1st edition, where the issue was more the fact that it was the first ever Gestalt class) that the book's sales would be nowhere near as high from just the choice of name.
Just so you know, the advanced weapons are easier on game balance than the ancient ones. Yes, the reason is once again them doubles and the ancient firearms ability to have free action reloading.
But they DO make for some pretty damn cool 'slinger options though, especially if refluffed to magitech or something.
Techslinger's in that numerian tech guide. I do wonder if clustered shots might help there, as several of the guns, while quite decent, there, are energy based, which could be a problem much more often than DR.
As for Aegis, yeah, it's one of DSP's psionic classes. One of the best damn martials in flavor, power and balance, but unfortunately not "pathfinder society" legal. Probably the first time I've heard someone say they allow everything but haven't had the psi classes in play! Seriously though. Excellent class. Very solid low tier 3 and a multiclassing wonder.
Also of note for multiclassing, though not PFS, is the Aegis, which grants some simply spectacular combinations and utilities for a wannabe gunner. From Evasion (and its Fort/Will equivalent, Stalwart) to flight, active-camo, burrowing, vision modes, extra arms and of course holding a bigger gun and making it even bigger. Hard to say no to a 'reloading' item/climb/grapple hand, a shield hardpoint and weapons two sizes larger than you'd normally have had!
Will you be covering the Techslinger and its little wonders? Well, not that they're as dangerous as double-pistols but hey they're fun.
Reducing almost any attack to a standard action guts the user's damage so badly it's generally a permanent toss to the trash bin for that option.
At our table we simply say "one double-shot per gun per round" and that keeps things nice and tidy. One of your attacks in a full attack can be both barrels, that's it. That said, it does drag the 'slinger down to well below what an equally dedicated archer could do.
The best way to keep a gunslinger balanced is the Techslinger. Let him jump onto shiny laser rifles and ice-beams, and you won't have to worry about his output anywhere near as much as someone who really has little choice other than "dual double-pistols". It'll be 'good enough' with less effort (as in "feats") letting the character spread out a little more, and you can refluff'em as magitech at worst.
As far as replicating the 3.5 Warlock, which seems to be the goal of many...does the Keneticist miss the mark grossly ???
It lacks the versatility, the power, the "at will" factor for the majority of its abilities... It's kind of an elemental warlock thematically, but if the final version is remotely similar in power AND/OR scope to the playtest version, it's gonna be the "NPC Classes" version.
You know, right in between Expert and Commoner.
Actually given what intimidation rolls ARE, it might be best to apply a ... 'growth factor' instead. Barring some very specific effects one should generally not remove player agency: The moment things become a cinematic, you've stopped running a game and started telling them your story.
If the intimidation succeeds its roll, you give an updated description/analysis of the character doing so. Make something already existing about that character sound a little more menacing. Sure it may not be a mechanical change, but it can be far more valuable as the right words/descriptions can cause people to completely change their tactics or planned actions.
"Upon closer inspection those muscles look quite a bit more solid than you thought"
"You think you might have caught a strange crackling sound just now, maybe some spell effect's aura-masking is starting to come undone from activating it"
"That's a pretty bright-looking fireball coming your way, oh uh, gimme a reflex save."
"That blade's dripping with something. As it swings close you feel a bit of burning on your skin, maybe from those droplets. Those damn things that impaled bill outright, did either of you ever keep a vial of that stuff?"
Give it to them as a "clue". Changing their behavior; that's the entire point of that roll ain't it?
Mechanically, a lot of the "unlimited" turned out, as people eventually discovered (completely coincidentally matching the time when they stopped worrying the warlock was overpowered and tossed it aside as "worthless non-full-caster-drivel") is actually of little to no value.
By the time a full-caster of more than level 2 or 3 is truly out of spells, unless he's been wasting them (or the poor guy's a blaster build) they've probably gone through several more encounters in a day than the party could ever have survived without their because-just-once-a-day vancian-boosted abilities. The fighter would've dropped dead, completely out of her only resource (HP) before noon, and the rogue might not have made it past the dungeon entrance (remember old 2nd edition and them traps?)
As a result, warlocks, while they don't run out of their tricks, were in the same boat as the fighter but more versatile: You're eventually exhausted and low on health, and the two guys who decide how entire encounters go in a single action each have said that's enough for today it's time to rest. The warlock just had less bookkeeping is all!
Luckily 5th also offers a few 'apprenticeship' tidbits, so that it's not all the same "haha sold your soul now you're damned and try to take it back" story with every character every time.
I rather enjoy the concept of some ancient eldritch horror beyond time accepting, with the barest sliver of its consciousness, that some tiny little baby-chick of an existence just imprinted on it and will try to follow and learn from it for a little while; maybe every once in a while it'll look back to make sure the fluffy little peep-peep is okay.
Or, of simply having looked/chanced-upon/fallen-in-with a different kind of master/teacher than all the other apprentice wizards. "Lil' Mikey over there's really learning some wierdass methods, and who here's ever heard of "Color out of Space"? He don't sound like no archmage OUR academy has ever mentioned!"
Well Master CooS might have you digging a tower to west of house with feathers dipped in cow-man blood every once in a while, and you are kinda wondering about this pattern the lot of them are starting to create, but at least you're not spending the first ten years just polishing his bloody books and cleaning up after that filthy familiar (seriously the thing just... hiding it in boots, the table, under the bed, ANYWHERE".
Petty Alchemy wrote:
Mechanically the Warlock will be succeeded by the Kineticist.
Only if the final version is drastically, unrecognizably different from the playtest version, that is.
Otherwise we've got a poor damage dealer with a devastatingly self-destructive mechanic, no versatility, and precious-few tricks to show for it, whereas Warlocks were decently enough third-tier* as I recall.
edit: * or was that Dragonfire Adepts, or was it the warlock but with access to DFA invocations, or was it the other way around? I know DFA main power came from breath feats, which were iffy of access if you did not purchase Power Surge (which fully cleared'em for RAW combining there), but I forget which was T3 and which was just T4. Either way so many people more or less just slushed way too much of those two classes together so it's difficult to remember.
Except it's never "steps".
At best, rapid reload does nothing. At worst, it would be slowing down your 2-hander if it applied after any ammo mods.
Or he makes it flatly impossible by retroactively adding things whenever the players have an idea he didn't account for, but at that point he should just hang up his dice for good.
What REASON exactly do you have to want to keep them in jail for an amount of time? Keeping in mind that without at least something/someone to do or adventure there's kind of little point to be rolling up a character.
If there's no +x weapons due to no casters (seriously don't remove that part "because there's no enchanters") you're going to have extreme problems. Do keep in mind that higher level challenges (and not just monsters) within the system ASSUME that you are covered head to toe in magic gear.
Martial types are hit the hardest, in fact, by such a lack, before you even get into the issue of "nigh-impossible save DC vs nasty effect you no longer have the magic to remove".
While the vital strike compatibility is nice, it's still a pretty significant nerf to only give the first VS, as that is in and of itself weaker than dead shot.
Overall, all you've done is weaken gunslingers and guns as a whole, in exchange for making them slightly more compatible with other classes.
Unfortunately, that does not make them attractive in the least.
Rocket launchers cannot be recharged, but as the techslinger gets to give it a temporary charge (and/or lower the charge cost to 0) even if it can no longer be recharged, it shouldn't be an issue.
Now, the fact that it takes a full-round-action to fire the thing, THAT'S a problem. Even if it works, deadshot is weaker than vital strike, which is weaker than mythic vital strike, which is weaker than a full attack.
At least, though (and I do love that part) anything directly hit by the rocket doesn't get a save, which is good because by the time you can afford one there's not a damn thing in the game that can't make DC 15 (and by the time your 'slinger can use it without running out, not a thing that can't make it on a one or two!)
Just make sure it's not a fire type, since everything resists or is immune to that. Force missiles should do well enough.
By pure RAW, the full-round-action to use once means it's completely incompatible with damn near anything.
This is, of course, a fatal flaw in the entire heavy weapon list, as by making it 'not an attack action', and by making it incompatible with the majority of feats and abilities, even a rocket launcher's damage ends up falling short of... bows.
Dispari Scuro wrote:
Use an Elixir of Sex Shift. If it doesn't work, the character is pregnant.
When you think about it, that's not very fair. It means magic in general considers a blastocyst more important than the life of its host!
*gets the hell back into cover*
Just remember, even if you're not sure what you've caught, there's always Cure Disease!
*Dives for cover*
Use commune to ask a deity
You don't honestly believe Zeus is gonna own up to this stuff do you?
You've got a guy trying to be a significant part of the battle, except he's a bard with a crossbow (the most reviled weapon of the early development stages of the d20 system, where even "exotic>martial>simple" gets ignored in favor of screwing it up the ***).
So he's not getting to add strength to damage like he would with a bow past character creation (maybe two sessions at most). He's a 3/4 BAB character as well.
The fighter is almost inexplicably better than the others right now, by sheer virtue of your other players not really having any clue what they are doing. It's like if we were comparing a juggler to myself attempting to juggle. The problem's not with the juggler, even though I might need an ambulance.
On the other hand, that was taking up some "room"/balance-considerations and so should probably get replaced by something. You could certainly make room for a nice masterwork mino-double in there, or something.
But what are the chances that we'll see any fixes/repairs to the proficiency and gunsmithing issue anytime soon (and HOW did that make it from testing to the final printing in the first place), or ever at all?
Given how often the two are conjointly banned or allowed in many groups, I'd suggest taking a look at the psionic multiclassing options.
Aegis and Marksman in particular make superb combinations with the gunslinger, and Adaptive Warrior in particular deserves special mention for the sniper builds, as you can eventually auto-threat with it.
INT - Aegis (not really one, but PP/day is Int-based), Cryptic, Tactician, Psion
Aegis is a partial manifester, Psy-Warrior style, if you choose to make it that way.
The Harness Power Stone chain of Astral Suit customizations allows you to hold, own, and manifest multiple power stones as if they were known powers outright. You need only someone who can put a power in there in the first place.
Of course, that's only while you're not busy arguing with others at your table about just what an oversized weapon-augmented temporarily-deep-crystal railgun specifically uses as its damage formula (come on just look at the table it's so obviously 6d8 for the first size-up then 2d8>3d8 so 9d8 now help me find more d8s I'm using vital strike).
Did I mention Aegis and Guns get along quite swimmingly?
Also old scripture like the Mahabharata.
Don't let the power names in psionics throw you off; most of that stuff is ancient.
Systematically speaking, anyways, a point or fatigue system fits most fantasy magics when it comes to how it's done in non-game lore and fiction, with vancian being very setting specific (and ridiculously powerful, which was WHY it was so limited in the form of 'finalizing' high-powered rituals), even for things like D&D.
More to the point, isn't "psychic magic" that sticks to vancian just going to be a couple of sorc-like classes with variants on often already covered spells, like enchantments and divinations? Even Telekinesis is in there already...
Forget the double. Never the double. A Minotaur Double is the real double crossbow. Accept no purposefully-designed-as-utterly-horrific-for-the-wielder-not-the-targets, king-of-trap-equipment-options substitutes
A Masterwork would set you back what, about 1100 gold? That's decently ballpark for a starting bolt ace weapon replacement.
AD&D's cosmology had a very simple reason why you had so many more demons and devils in the prime than (usually temporarily summoned by a spell only) celestials: People are more often evil than good when they do register as non-neutral through their actions.
There were actually significantly more demons and devils than celestials, to the point where the only thing them from invading the upper planes was spending most of their energy on the blood-war.
The gods do in fact not give a flying **** as well, as they have their own closed off dimensional realms within the planes, where whatever they damn well hope and dream whatever they bloody want into reality.
1: Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Razmarian Sorc, Sorc and Oracle when they have Paragon Surge (oracle especially), probably the Arcanist
2: Regular Sorcerer, Psion (Kineticist might be 3 though), regular Oracle. Standard Summoner, but unsure if Master Summoner is here or makes it to Tier 1.
3: Alchemists, Bards, Skalds! Magus, Warpriests, Inquisitors, Most DSP classes like the Marksman, Aegis, Vitalist, Tactician, Psy-Warrior... Possibly the path of war classes but I've not enough experience with them to say. Synthesist Summoners are probably here, might still be at 2?
4: Barbarians, Rangers, Adepts, paladins are probably at the top of 4, and Dreads and Soulknives. Unsure if Ninja here or in 5, they're fairly versatile and better than the Rogue, but are they good enough?
5: Fighters, The Better Monk Archetypes, Gunslingers, Swashbucklers, Samurai... Cavalier probably still fits here but below samurai.
6: The "common NPC classes", the rest of the monk archetypes, and probably the crossbowman archetype.
Wide Lines would be nice, rather. corridors of death would be a nice compromise between "just another line" and "wideass cone", allowing for good range. You can get a lot more mileage out of those 3-wide MAPWs than the teeniest ones or just one line often enough.
The Ion CannonNah more as in "GDI". Orbital flight and deep holes where power plants used to be. Basically what the average blaster caster aspires to.
Like Mario?Well I figure not everyone wants giant blue beams all the time for everything, however odd that may sound. Plus skippy fireballs and all.
Are we talking about neutrinos?In this case it's a weapon from over in gurps: The idea is that you take a typically fatal accident: phasing, hyperspace or teleportation errors, and apply them to the end of whatever barrel or barrel-less vectored weapon that you're using. To bypass silly crap like intervening moons or shields or reactor core housings that thought they stood between you and hilarity
Where be this, and does it combine well with Aegis (I can't tell you the totally secret unobvious obscure reasons one would want to multiclass with that)?