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In order for magic to be supplanted, technology would have to supplant it outright in the ability to manipulate the local universe.

And it has to do so on every front, otherwise there's no reason you wouldn't just have magitech.

It gets particularly spurious an explanation if magic is just "um, not allowed" or "whoopsied"; that kind of thing was what they pulled with "the weave" on Toril, and basically is just *begging* to just blow back entirely with "AND THEN MAGIC BECOMES SUPREME AGAIN, SEE JUST HOW WORTHLESS S*%@ YOUR LASER USING CHARACTER BECOMES ONCE MORE" from a single adventure path or splatbook "unlocking" it back to full power. You definitely don't want that sword hanging over the setting's neck.

Conjuration will only be matched once you've got full-fledged replicators and transporters... except not even then, because one is the person themselves doing all of that and even calling in fully sentient entities, while the other requires massive amounts of reactor power, large machinery and computing, and often isn't even instant.

So the safest and most reasonable path is to have areas where science wins out a little, but a majority of areas (research-wise, not "places") where "magic" is no longer "magic", just a well understood part of the universe's physical laws. That little eternal flame inscription will last longer than an LED, that "fireball wand" is now fully rechargable (it's advanced enough we can build'em without that "burning out" problem), and with enough data that central computer 'augury' is far less likely to lie to you than any deity.

In other words; just like wizards first researched metamagic, thus applying "science" to their spells, technology continues to advance with full understanding that the 'metaphysical' stuff is nothing more than one of the many sets of laws they can exploit to achieve certain effects. After all, science is just the process, and technology is just advances. The first magic staves were a technological advancement, just, in a universe with "magic" in it is all.


I dunno... that feels more galaxy-express than *ships* in space, ya know?


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At the same time, far too often the drawbacks are often completely debilitating trap options, OR basically mean nothing and may as well not exist. The fragile quality being one of the latter when it comes to magical weapons. HP/Hardness in pathfinder don't really come into play for items unless someone is purposefully sundering them, and unless you're built for that you can forget it no matter how vulnerable the little blade in your opponent's hand is, even though by all means it should probably have shattered on your shield.

The benefits and drawbacks can be kept simple if A) they are well documented, and B) organized properly. The use of keywords and straightforward wording can make it just as simple as the single material modification in pathfinder is/was.

Could be simple headers in, say, a weapon entry.
Submachine Gun | Variant: Laser | Laser Material: Nd:YAG
<the usual statline, directly altered straightforwardly from the above goes here>

Man-Portable Cannon | Variant: Gauss | Generator: Prana-Capacitor | Ammunition Type: Zol-Orichalconium
<the usual statline, directly altered straightforwardly from the above goes here>


Make a Heavy Water variant and you're but a shocking dagger from infinite fusion fuel and oxygen.


"but less HP" would really have to go a few steps beyond the "lol fragile" rules we currently see. Perhaps striking against high enough DR/Hardness (discounting strength and power-attack, anything that can block half or more of the damage) means up to the weapon's own TOTAL damage dealt is suffered (and reduced by its hardness)?

So that ultra-sharp ceramic blade is amazing and effortless against security guards in disturbingly-resilient neon orange jumpsuits, worryingly chips a little when you're hitting the guy in power armor, and you really, really oughta have known better than to try and smash a tank in half with the edge using a potion of strength and power attack.


Enchanting your gun into a "robot" so it stops costing 10gp a shot because the only other way to recharge it yourself would be a colossal artifact building, or *two* of them just to craft batteries?

No wait, that's regular pathfinder.

We can probably hopefully look forward to reasonable applications of infinite energy, as well as massive capacitors that put the steady output of your twin-spheres trash reactor to good use.

One of the biggest other advantages may be in life support and infinite reaction mass.


Gotta do barrel and power-pack modifications too. Different hull compositions and configurations (nicely done in Fragged Empire, that) as well.

I'd say stuff for plasma blades too, but no one will use a "half the damage dealt is electrical, half the damage dealt is fire, remember to round down, and F&*+ YEAH APPLYING RESISTS AND/OR HARDNESS TWICE" weapon any more than they already do in pathfinder, but definitely for vibroweapons yes.

Shield generator types as well: In battlelords for example some are basically physical matter-walls but can be ignored by certain weapons that teleport or implode around a target, some basically telefrag incoming shots but don't always work, others create a thick plasma cloud that doubles as ECM (missiles are rather expensive but punch far above their weight), but takes extra damage from several sources while also doubling as a rather severe radiation source; not too bad for one or two of the races but cancer-in-a-can for anybody else in just a few minutes!


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

According to Jacobs, it's pretty much the same core bunch that manage all of the worlds of the Prime Material plane, even if the names might change, and there might be local additions or subtractions.

From the latest I've read, Golarion was created specifically to cage Rovagug, hence it's nickname. "The Cage".

May be what they say for now to keep the surprise; some of the best fluff comes from exploring the differences; adds quite a bit of life to even some otherwise quite dull histories when other points of view or evidence of what one's 'angle' was come to light, so I do hope they'll deepen their universe a bit.

As for the horrors of 40k... I'm more of a fan of the Bydo personally. Less final-bureaucracy, but a lot nastier overall.


Um, no... not at all.

Numenera... I have bad bad things to say about mechanically and could excuse a pathfinder veteran thinking the CRB was balanced if Numenera was their prior experience. The tech's about as useful and well thought out as Numeria, if that's any indication. It is very much land-based, and tends to treat the old tech so much like disposable magic items in both fluff and function that a lot of it feels cheaply painted over.

Dying Earth is LITERALLY the setting where vancian magic originates from. Where you only had a handful of spells, each of which was a massively powerful ritual which at most you were keeping at 99.9% completion in unstable storage in your own brain, waiting to complete the final triggers to set off. It's very post-apocalyptic, in a "Athas has more hope left" and the mages you're playing are living it up in the end-days.

While old and rickety, it's actually a really fun system, especially once everyone gives up on seriousness hops on the nutcase express, and next thing you know the party's dressed in nun unitards and organized some helpless villagers into a new wrestling league, which they of course provide the special effects for.

Skyrealms of Jorune was standard fantasy on giant floating islands and continents(think 'skies of arcadia' thousands of years in the past) of an alien world (with the occasional alien tech, etc). I don't really remember enough to give proper details on the mechanics though.


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That's only around one world though. Other regions may very well have their own gods. Sure, the ones around that one, from a local's little point of view may have been preventing the end of the universe, but take a step back to the galactic scale and "what do you mean they caged *A* rovagug in there? did no one have a broom? what were they thinking those things are filthy!"

Back in Planescape and Spelljammer for example, most pantheons had a single planet.... and some were such petulant tantrum-tossing little a$#&$%!s that they wouldn't even have that much if they hadn't blockaded the flow of souls to avoid a complete loss against the "goes to plane of alignment" system default. Each of those pantheons tended to make DAMN sure they were their worshipers entire universe, lest they lose that tasty tasty psychic food to those people just leaving for grander things


It's certainly true that people's uh, bedside manner can leave a *lot* to be desired (that includes myself), but sometimes between all the swearing is a lot of crunched numbers and reasoning that lead to the tirade. Caustic cleans a lot better than just a bit of water!

Gotta be careful with the closed ones and make sure those doing it are still able/willing to give you the bad news, and you gotta listen to them when they do, even if it sucks to hear!

It's that or more stuff like Overwhelming Soul.


Things never end well without proper playtesting, OR if the playtesting is just ignored as we've seen, so we'll have to see how it goes.


Of course those same two could be applied to the ranged weapon user.
Or interference fields to prevent such charges.


Rook13 wrote:
Jamie Charlan wrote:
... a fireball amplifier granting a ship's mage's spells the full backing of a fusion reactor...
THIS!!!

Just to note; in one particular game series, psionics (and for the most part most magic as well) is so feeble that it takes vehicles to power them to a useful degree (usually giant robots). Psychics are but people with abnormal brainwaves, until you hook them up to a powerplant and make something useful out of them.

Vehicles also show themselves to be very useful when the bigger the runes/magic-circles/etc the more effective the results. Hell, what's every starfleet vessel's deflector dish if not space magic anyways?

Another one where this was the case was System Shock, where you plugged a little high-tech amplifier ball into your arm to use your psi abilities.


Yeah, chances are melee commissars (as opposed to quadrupedal 10t melee rock-crushers) are about on the "exceptionally specialized build that's wasting a lot to try to catch up to everyone else" level of a 1pp-only Gunslinger.

Meanwhile the two other partymembers are clearly visible in that picture!


Depends on how much of can of worms you want to open.
>Skill designated to dodging
>Skill designated to melee
>Skill designated to blocking

I can already see the 'space marine' class having run out of skill points before they even touch noncombat skills again!


I'd suggest not splitting magic and tech like the primitives in Arcanum. That way lies madness, especially when one has so many options to consider.

FIRST though: make certain you have decided exactly what the average (say, 10) stat MEANS in the light of all those options, especially genetics!

Gene-Mods:
You're not sporting any augments yet you're born well above what long ago used to be the average for your species. In fact, this may be the norm for advanced cultures as a whole; As it gets more and more common, the basic genepool's improved to the point where unless your parents are so poor they could not afford basic prenatal care you're probably born near the peak of what's possible for your race.

It's even possible to primitives coming in from lesser worlds, but the price of doing this with an adult in a way that won't result in cancerous systemic failures in a few years can be rather devastating... But even you're doing it for the children! Just, not the ones you've already had, sucks to be them.

Electromechanical Cybertech:
Oldschool 'chrome' but no one actually does chrome except maybe along with piercings and tattoos in their rebellious phase, or the occasional out-of-touch richass person who thinks they're "slumming it retro" or something.

Electromechanical Cybertech is direct physical augmentation. Not actually all that likely to be as-is in a setting where magic is pervasive; so many minor details and functions can be done on the cheap by the latter (including having a good sense of touch and less invasive mental control over the gear) that personally I'd be willing to bet any actual adventurer running around with this stuff is a dedicated antimagic suite user, sporting a couple of casting-jammers and an AMF Generator.

Cheapest version probably IS pure magic: an animated block of 3d-printer material animated by some interns is a lot cheaper than just about anything short of a matter-energy-conversion replicator system's work (mostly it's the replicator itself that's hideously expensive).

Grafted Bioware:
The icky version of electromechanical: Bits that aren't QUITE you are grown, and replace what used to be. Has advantages of being biomatter, and unless bought at a cheap chop-shop is probably at least keyed to your own genetics so you don't reject it anywhere near as badly. However, it's not easy or cheap to get the same resilience; your body has no damn clue what to do with a cut that demands adamantine to feed new cells; but at least carbon and iron are parts of our diet (but the new cravings will be pronounced)

Nanotech:
People usually imagine just blood-nannies, but in fact this stuff is probably how the above two are installed and integrated to you in the first place. Additionally, this could go so far as to allow for full 'coating' of organs or outer surface, or even outright replacement and "ascension" (probably what some call doing so...) into something a bit more akin to a T-1000... Or B-3B2 starfighter given enough mass to play with!

There's of course the purely magic augmentations, but the reality of it is magic already tends to enhance things; If you replace your strength with already +2 above race using hydraulics, a +2 enhancement enchant on them might give those cheapo pistons your work insurance screwed you over with a decent level of power, while also letting you get feeling out of them and allowing finer animated-object motion than the 'claws' were supposed to let you do.

Likewise, magic that lets you control swarms could easily be adapted to friendly, willing nanocolonies within your body; save yourself the macros and programming interface with direct will interface. Utterly amazing... but you might get form-locked in an AMF. Not a problem for the average person though, and even for adventurers a fine bonus above and beyond the more advanced systems most of the time.

Let magic make life easier, rather than be separate. Cheap, minor enchants where they do the job better than a complex piece of equipment, and other things where they so easily perform acts that magic gets expensive for. Antigravity might be rather special to a wizard, but on some worlds that's nothing but a pallet-lifter for your warehouse workers!


The knowledge check should probably come AFTER detecting the interference field, not *instead*. Especially when the latter is so easy you can't fail it. First you realize there's something there, and THEN you figure what it is.

Unless the blaster is establishing a connection between itself and the targets it shouldn't be weaker as a direct function of how many people it's affecting. Rather, things should make sense: If this thing fires out, say, a large cone of high energy radiation that doesn't care if you're wearing armor, then whatever's caught in the area is going to be in for similar amounts of pain. But it might attenuate with distance specifically, rather than "how many people are nearby.

If, on the other hand, it's like a shotgun blast or fire breath (I'm using the latter as an example for a reason though....) then technically using others as cover should help. Technically though, microwave area denial weapons (very popular with [Evil]) won't do much if you've got a faraday cage or armor that properly covers you; rather handy when your friends are heavily armored and the large crowd your busting isn't.

Weapons shouldn't have much difficulty producing their own energies; rather use your idea for planar projectors in conjunction with something more akin to the Ork Shokk Attack Gun; take advantage of the planar gateway grabbing crap to materialize angry extraplanars directly inside people you don't like, for more spectacular results!


Technically isn't the center of stars in pathfinder a direct portal to positive and fire planes?

Although for the most part that might just mean one needs good shielding and the occasional cleaning out those fusion reactors. But it's not all a waste of time; Plasma Oozes seem rather well suited to guidance/warhead packages for anti-ship torpedoes and whatnot.

*edit: or rather I should say, they SHOULD be well suited, as in pathfinder rules they couldn't hurt a fly if the fly was an object because their damage is a pathetic separated 4d6 fire and 4d6 electrical


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Don't see why 'druids' would have to be hunted down. Rather it's the kinds of terrain they deal with that are different (and the ones trying to keep hard vacuum pristine are probably seen as going a little far by other druids too). Perhaps some druids will have to accept that they can protect a forest a lot better given a GPS unit and a couple of motion trackers though.

Tech/Magic shouldn't really be at odds with one-another anyways, since the former is merely an application of existing discoveries. What do you think a wand is? Someone figured out a way to store a whole bunch of spells for later, in a portable, easy-to-use way that doesn't involve blowing your own brains out from storing eldritch patterns way above capacity. The entire "magic items" section of any game is nothing more or less than metaphysics-based technology.

You're just as likely to see a fireball amplifier granting a ship's mage's spells the full backing of a fusion reactor, or stabilizing fields protecting life-support from nasty little dispels, and an AI with technological geomancy sounds rather fun.


That's kind of my point; most people shouldn't know, and most people shouldn't care either, so trying to make it some big deal in the setting doesn't sit right.

Shouldn't be "Planet unfindable, news at 11!", should simply be a nonsubject?

Plus unlike "let's make it suck more than crossbows" land, the tech's probably considerably more effective thousands of years later in starfinder; wouldn't some random planet exploding and releasing an ancient destroyer god that needs to be put down make for an interesting AP for high level characters or a small fleet?


It probably isn't/shouldn't, but rather some nanite-programmer or electrokine.


Although I really don't understand why "we won't tell you where golarion is" should even matter in an interstellar campaign; it's some screwy random prison-planet, not bloody Coruscant...

If the AI 'gifted' hyperspace as a way of screwing all the other gods over would be interesting. "They can be dealt with when in there" would at least explain why gods tend to be stuck to a single system (single planet in previous editions of D&D) in regards to where their food comes from.

They should be able to transmit to clerics at more or less any distance, with dangerous limitations like the rare sealed worlds (think Athas) being something clerics must learn to stay away from at all costs. However, the gods are godly in their own domains, lording high "above" the prime material; catch one in the cleft between dimensions and it's no sturdier than its normal avatars.

This would explain why it was done; as a distributed, decentralized system, the AI Deity can travel with very little risk, at most losing a copy rather than its eternal existence. Rather advantageous when all your rivals can't.

As for favored weapons, that should probably be more by 'type': One god loves himself some ion cannons, a different one thinks you should pack gravitics and there's one that's all about lazorz, but whether it's a pistol, a melee weapon or a vehicular-scale cannon, or something even bigger that you actually DID install to your ship (because why would you install some peashooter the crew could even run around with? that's a personal weapon if they can!) does not matter: you're using the holy whatever that deity likes most.


Numerous materials could not. Technically this includes (very oddly) the casing for torpedoes (really, the casing? not even the warp-sustainer or anything of the sort?), Dilithium which was in short supply (shuttles have M/AM cores too), and those neural gelpacks would have to be grown manually though the needed materials can probably be replicated.

But my point was rather that if you're not going to be running out anytime soon, you should probably be using them a little faster than "maybe just one if we're about to die otherwise"


CoeusFreeze wrote:
Is the technomancer going to be strong or versatile enough to deal with a foe who is harnessing the power of the gods to contain technological advancement, or does it fall sort in terms of capabilities when trying to foil something as strong as a Tier 1 caster?

Firstly, though this is often forgotten due to horrific failures of achieving the intended values particularly between haves and martials in earlier d20 works: a class and level system should mean that - while there are numerous individual differences/specialties/etc - overall two individuals of a given level have generally the same level of capability.

So if, say, one character, of ANY class, can utterly cancel and override another character at, say, level 10, then one of those is clearly not operating at the level of the other one, and something drastic needs to change.

That said; when you consider things like fluff to go with mechanics then you have to also consider what they can do mechanically, not just what they sound like. If gods negate the very existence of technology at a whim, then you're going to have to reach very very far up your buttocks indeed to justify how or why there even IS technology still in the setting of that hated level. Why would there be when all it takes to screw it all to hell's a prayer?

So what does that tell us?
Either A) the mechanics and fluff were written with so much disregard for one-another that any character concept, location or story will fight itself to a vicious death with every last shred of power they may have (congratulations, you're 2nd edition Exalted)

Or B) but He could do nothing against the inhabitants of the Spaceships, for their machines would violate spacetime like armed and horny tentacles

Or C)"technology is the new god" takes things one too many steps towards the literal, and once all that delicious energy starts going to people's gear instead of them, things'll get rather Ork-y.


Yeah, I think we've all at least had one TPK where a surrender became "you're all tortured to death the end"

Kinda like how you can tell who's had their weapons permanently disappeared after being made to "leave them at the door" for some kind of meeting more than once or twice in their gaming career - usually by their immediate and lethal response to such requests in the future after learning it was just a fancy way of saying "your GP or your HP".


Even then the "desired" solution should at most be "Probably this order of ease/effectiveness", rather than absolutes, most especially in regards to those latter two

Obviously there's exceptions such as berserking skeletons being rather unlikely to take prisoners or understand "surrender", but players will very quickly realize if "the wrong answer" is being shielded off by highly resilient train-tracks rather than simply being a suboptimal or unexpected way of solving the problem.

Hell sometimes it's downright blatant, such as absolute "attacks don't work" handwavium that's not backed by the system mechanics but merely your own "nuh uh".


>Sorry, the correct answer in this AP was Orange
>But our options were to fight, negotiate, or check out her panties?
>Hey man don't blame me. Spacerocks fall, you're the ones who all screwed up.

Barring literally anything else, certainly nothing beats SAT-style multiple choice questions!


Vidmaster7 wrote:
trying to run but can't away you say? just four little words "beam me up scottie"

>You can't it creates interference around itself

>You can't you're out of range
>You can't you're underground, well okay sure you normally can underground but not this underground
>You can't there's a shield
>You can't, WE have a shield
>You can't uh, right now, um, hey bob did the writers actually explain why we can't this time? What do you mean no? So they just don't?

Honestly sometimes I think there was as much "you trapped" reason for transporters (vs "get back to the shuttle") as there was for the supposed cost-cutting official reason. Because in the end, at the very least, if nothing else the shuttle would still be *there* ... and possibly capable of blasting their predicament.


Hopefully a bit more than that or I worry for the ship combat!


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Wheras Picard would take his Enterprise right back to Starbase for repairs if he so much as scratched the paint

In fairness, the Enterprise D didn't have much paint on the outside, so those scratches usually came from several decks having been blown through and someone's artwork ruined after some yellow-shirted redshirt ensign got between it and a doomed console.

As for Voyager... You'd think someone would eventually notice they'd been supposed to run out of shuttles and torpedoes several seasons earlier, and would've proceeded to take advantage of the infinite amount by adding more launchers everywhere and sending more of those redshirts they somehow replenished in on shuttles for even more torpedo fire all over.

Plus it would also fit in with the game's canon, given the T6 version's rather popular as a shieldless torpedo boat with them old consoles...


How heroic...
Well, that and it requires you to actually have those things.
Worst case scenario: said things would be available but the party willingly does not use them because of how the twelve extra turns worth of movement and attacks per round for all the various gundrones would slow the game down.

Although you do bring up one good point: Gonna need some weapons to deal with all those space gods; eldritch and otherwise. There's a lot of those 'deity' things in space settings - including pathfinder's - so safe travel across the stars is going to need something you can mount on fighters that can at least harm those entities, even if it might require charged shots at smaller scales.


What, not a fan of the Type-11 Shuttlecraft?
Looked rather sleek I thought!


He'll never be able to run in round -3, let alone round 1, without big changes from what was in the rest of the d20 system.

For the most part it's as Sundakan states earlier: If you can't win against it, it's stronger and faster than you, or at least will nuke you at range for same effect.

But there's another aspect to that: Because "whether or not you can win" is heavily dependent on hitdice/level, very often something you can't win against is *also* something you have little hope of hiding against or ambushing. Perhaps its perception cannot beat you personally, the stealth guy's bonuses once items and class abilities are factored in, but at best it just means you could leave the rest of your comrades to be eaten!

Take "godzilla" as you mentioned, for example! A "Mogaru" has 100ft speeds, +45 perception, +66 for certain CMBs, 79 base CMD, ranged attacks, detection abilities, and immunities all over! You have to run, says the GM; hope you're not trying to escape out of its 60ft reach though, it has combat reflexes! You have to run, but that's almost certain death, while at least maybe, MAYBE, if all of you were optimized enough and full attack, and everyone gets a few crits....

This is why for many longtime players, the best hope is to go all-out and hope some swing of the dice will go your way; natural 20's enabling you to hit and possibly do significant damage, a natural 1 letting the enemy fall to a save, etc. Because if you waste your actions running, that's just that many less rounds worth of chances to survive you're simply throwing away against something with blindsight, darkvision, flight 120' and enough battle capability that you wanted to bug out to begin with!

Starfinder needs to work hard to repair this, as it's an easy temptation to fall for when it comes to ship battles, where many people want "bigger has more people and is better in every way"; lest "ram the bastards" be every group's only remaining solution even in space! Because if your little transport shuttle can't outrun a battleship, you may as well let them tractor you in and hope there's enough antimatter left to make your deaths worth it!


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Maybe it'll be easier to revive; just bag the head and stick it in a growth tank a few days?

DR specifically would be a bit of an issue; far too many things (and there's no way magic wouldn't go up in damage to follow after all) ignore it entirely.

Now if armor offered Hardness...


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Of course, if things can only be immune to ranged (screw you, mythic-combat-reflexes+smash-from-the-sky) that would be broken as all hell. Sucks if something's immune to axes as well; and why wouldn't be? Backwards golarion has effective immunity/total-negation of high technology available in its spells/abilities, maybe starfinder things have anti-primitive-crap fields.

All that to say: immunities are a very heavy-handed solution of the "nuh uh you can't you have to solve the problem this way" variety.


You'd basically (though this would be limited by the usual class balancing issues) have to give special space abilities to each individual class, allowing them to be different and/or stack, while still being useful. It CAN be done, just that usually it'll be done terribly (the fighter gets 'weapon training' with A ship gun, while the cleric gets to metamagic every ship action and can repair it without costing hundreds of thousands of gold-uh-credits).

There's also the issue that various ship roles CAN be an entirely valid character concept. Just as in your examples, plenty of people can want to be good "at space", making things like pilots, captains, and so on. It can feel just as restrictive or outright stupid for some dedicated navigator to also have to be a level 12 barbarian because his job apparently has nothing to do with his growth as a character!

There's also fighter-pilots: If one's abilities are too far behind in smaller vessels, it forces the oft-boring-for-most-of-the-group 'naval' style battles even further. But what happens when you only have one role, and you'd need 3-4 to be effective on your own? Although at least maybe a role could be just this and offer what's needed when not onboard a capital.

One way or another if there's feats, abilities, etc that are space-only - and there's not really any reason not, it would suck not to - then there will always be the problem of whether things are balanced around having them or not, whether if things were too careful to make them not necessary and they're as worthless as +1-to-two-skills trash feats, or whether they change too much and offer too much power such that not taking them is a suicidal or 'selfish' act, and so on.

It's a lot of work and pagecount, but ideally many abilities should have ground and space value; spacecleric gets turn undead AND turn highly-explosive-homing-femurs, bard inspires crew as easily as partymembers, and so on and so forth. Of course, the real hassle comes in making sure everyone is indeed worth having on the ship: it would be far, far too easy to say "metamagic and spells function through mana-amplifiers for ship scale no problem" while utterly leaving the monk completely incapable of doing /*&%all (at the least they could've made his slow-fall count against damage suffered in a crash, damnit!)

Alternatively, if all's separate it's doable as well, but every class, race, etc has to offer at least something to space...

OR...

We have a Character/Spacerole gestalt.


Things get a bit different when it's vectors and acceleration.
Though its hex-based, if you look up the old space combat rules for the Silhouette system (like Jovian Chronicles) it worked fairly well. Plus it made engines one of the nastiest weapons available - as is only righteous, proper and Good when you're spewing plasma out the back the same way that pathetically tiny "sword" the other guy's wielding is.

Very different from the typical "naval or air combat" type rules we see for a lot of stuff including star wars, but can easily be as exciting; just that things don't move the same way is all.


Actually in Star Trek it's that they can't use transporters through interference or even their own shields. You can rarely use the transporters in combat for that reason: both have to have shields down for it to even work, and without shields things like phasers slice hull like chainsaws through butter.

Note if you play Star Trek Online be aware the game reverses the usual rules/statements due to having inexplicably stuck a 75% reduction vs shields on torpedoes, making phasers better at everything. But in the actual ST setting, torpedoes are good for overloading shields, and they do blow hull to shreds as well - but with shields down the phasers are just as effective, with no ammo limits or anywhere near the reload time.


Well if the firearms are anything like pathfinder firearms, dex to damage as a feat instead of default won't really save them from the trashbin... They'll just be uplifted back over crossbows for people who can afford them.


Ah, if only it were that simple in games though.

Sometimes encounters happen no matter what. Perhaps some AP demands it, or perhaps the GM wants to get a point across or has nothing better written up and needs to eat an hour and a half at least.

Far too often, not only is retreat not an option (most annoyingly, it 'is' but then "a totally different encounter that is exactly that one" becomes what you "came across instead) but even sneaking up and getting a devastating alpha-strike can be "you've been caught for reasons roll for initiative".


To be fair under a lot of systems, targeting anything but directly-the-hull-if-possible leads to even MORE time in spacedock to fix things.

The worst is when repairs are directly a factor of damaged component prices, and labor directly a factor of the expenditure.

Repairing the hull isn't cheap either, but damaged weapons or reactors can cost millions.


They probably are. And even when you're "aiming manually" with vehicle weapons, it's not like you're using iron sights.


HMDs (helmet mounted displays) nowadays allow you to simply look at something and actuate a control (say, a thumbswitch or the like) and get a weapons lock that way.

There's a basic explanation Here but effectively, rather than aiming the nose at a target for a few seconds, you just click whatever's in your field of view to lock/track, and can assign individual missiles and weapons to each.

So the complexity of controlling multiple weapons versus multiple targets (and we're not exactly travelling through hyperspace yet) has now reached a point equivalent to "tab through targets and hit the hotkeys as you need'em". It's not completely instant for multiple targets but neither is screaming "FIRE!" or waiting/reacting to said orders afterwards.

In terms of aiming ship weapons at multiple targets, "how many things you can track and fire at at once" would probably be what your number of attacks per round signify: Anyone can just alpha-strike something in front of them with all weapons, but if it's 6 seconds per round, then getting 2, 3, maybe 6 with haste at 20th is probably appropriate if you're also designating which weapons fire at what at the same time.

Weapon RoFs (and/or how many of each missile you're carrying) would be their own separate matter. Some might be able to fill the sky, others you've got one under a pylon and that's it.

Now consider how much faster even that gets if an AI or at least someone using direct neural interface starts applying themselves with the removal of the "focus eyes" and "wait for signal from brain to make your finger move" from the sequence!


Also the idea of "every individual weapon needs a gunner" gets extremely silly when you consider how increasingly "point and click" weapons are today. Targets can be locked onto with a glance given the right equipment, and combinations of vocal, motion and tactile control systems ensure a single person can direct quite the arsenal.


purple and green.


Battlelords has an interesting take on powers in that various species have rather different power sets and methods of growing them. That wouldn't be a bad thing to learn from; different traditions literally stemmed from the various races understanding all this stuff fairly differently.

If nothing else the races could be a source of "domains" for numerous "here's the main list and these are the powers added to it depending on what school/group/god/etc".

So far the Solarion sounds most like the TOME Anorithil, who do the whole positive/negative balancing act in a similar fashion - although they also recover the one they're not using to go with it.

Hopefully solarions aren't *vancian*, and use the balancing acts as their main restriction/fuel?


Well unless you've got ten thousand people in two warring clans of shrinking genepools in charge of reloading every individual cannon kilometers away from the bridge, s##$ happening fast is probably just fine for ships as well.


I said that the more separate the rules are between "ground" and "space" the less the system works for such a setting.

I didn't say "integrating them is impossible" at all; I was explaining how the more disconnected(not integrated) the two are the more likely space travel will be just an abstracted "you got there fine / you got boarded its a fight / nothing happened" handwave for most.

My entire *point* was that having to shift gears would be bad, and that separating the system with some cheapo version in the main book and a more complete version later several years down the line would almost certainly cause that problem.


I really have to disagree. For a setting in space to not be well integrated with its space combat from the start is just begging for disaster.

If it's rather straightforward without any real transition other than "well right now scale is X meters per hex" or the like, then things go well, and you don't have to wing it and demand rules potholes be filled up like bad Quebec roads every time there's something as simple as the party fighting a turret across a hull as they try boarding.

The more "transitioning" there is, the more disconnect you'll have and the more we'll find adventures, GMs and groups as a whole dropping the least supported of the two - and there WILL be a least -supported in such cases.

If it gets to the point where it's almost two completely different games, then you seriously have to consider "why are we playing this and not that" for both of the games the system(s) is(are) trying to pretend it(they) is(are).

Heavy Gear just x10s the vehicle stuff compared to people (you do 1/10th the damage, they do 10x, and so on), so you can have pilots trying to smash open an enemy cockpit and get in (very very unsafe, the other guy has a mech, but it CAN be done). Meanwhile, Edge of the Empire, your stats (even your piloting 85% of the time) other than gunnery don't actually matter or apply, and you MAY as well just use the better balanced X-Wing minis tabletop system for your space combat. That's not good.

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