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Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
Sounds like lists got the A-OK this year.
I started in 1983 and I totally don't remember using it as mental activation. I keep hearing people saying this and I couldn't understand why I didn't remember any of it.
Well I know now. I just read my old 1st edition DMG. Printer on 16 May 1979.
There is not a single use of the word mental in reference to activation methods in the whole book.
The only section that mentions an activation is the "Use of Magic Items" section.
This means that if you used a Ring of Invisibility as a mental activated item in 1st edition, then you did it without a rule telling you to do so. Read Page 119 and find where I'm wrong.
It is command word as stated in UC at 10,800 gp and arbitrarily increased to 20,000 gp because invisibility is that good.
Pretty much my whole D&D and Pathfinder life this thing has been command word. At least all my memories have been command word. Your memories differ. That is fine. I guess we haven't played at the same table with someone with the ring. Because I'd have objected to continuous or mental activation if I witnessed it.
Thanks Gauss for the example.
Keep in mind doing so explicitly violates rule number #1 of item creation. Price based on other items. There are other items (Bracers of Armor) that would be 16,000 gp. You may not every under any circumstance price below 16,000 gp for an item that provides constant +4 AC.
Most of the item pricing issues in the custom items arise from people jumping to the chart first instead of last after exhausting similar items and items of similar power.
And that's not in question and irrelevant. A sohei 6/fighter X can flurry with any of its weapon groups and the weapon training stacks for bonus value purposes since sohei training is fighter training.
It certainly is question in this thread since it is asking about "sohei 1 fighter 2" not "sohei 6 fighter 2".
If a sohei has weapon training in a weapon, it can use flurry of blows with that weapon. It doesn't specify where the weapon training has to come from. Maybe you think it should, but it doesn't.
But another FAQ does specify that abilities are written as single class. You are expanding this to work in a multi class character.
This exact question comes up about once every two months and often gets back and forth discussion. If you take the stance that it does work, then you are not likely to appreciate the implications of the single class ruling.
Keep in mind that the formulas are a last resort.
The only existing item with Shield of Faith is Key of the Second Vault and it only provides +2 or +1 if Chaotic alignment for 3,000 gp. It does also have a lock (not unlock) effect and a badly nerfed summon eagle plus an additional +2 Appraise.
Continuous +3 AC (CL 6 Shield of Faith) is set in stone and should never be cheaper than 3*3*2000 = 18,000 gp. That should be at minimum +3 AC on 1/day should be 3,600 gp. This may indicated the +1 or +2 depending on alignment is the majority of the 3,000 gp of the above item.
A lot of items have Silence in various forms, but only one had with Silence. My guess is silence isn't going to cost all that much.
Are we really going to have another thread click up to 900 posts and get it locked over the same subject?
The ring of invisibility has a duration per activation of 3 minutes and expires immediately upon removal. That is how the rules read according to the developers and if you don't read that out of the rules, then you may consider options such as rule 0-ing it to work any way you choose in your game. But the official RAW (whether or not you read RAW that way) is that these two facts are true.
Similar abilities are things like items with 2 charges a day and these three things each can use a charge.
Different abilities are for multiple effects that are independent.
Remember item pricing isn't always about the chart. Ring of Invisibility is 10,800 gp but raised to 20,000 gp because it is just that good.
I'm not really curious what YOUR guess is, just what the devs where thinking. I'd rather not put words in their mouths about their intent.
That kind of thing isn't something they are much inclined to provide. The FAQ system needs to be "this is how the rules work". If you get much into the reasoning behind it, the clarity of the response is diminished. Especially if the people involved don't understand or appreciate the reason.
I'm a bit disappointed it didn't give a reason.
It is probably because they don't like magic items being "spells in a can" except for expendable items.
So any magic item that gives you a spell can't be used like "I put blah on, use the spell, then take it off."
Basically, there is a desire to make you wear the item that grants you the benefit and not swap it in for the benefit.
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
I see lots of rings that say "on command". Those are command word activated. Everything else is subject to interpretation.
All rings are command word unless they say otherwise.
Rules that add more book keeping than influence on the game are bad rules.
The Ring of Invisibility can be hand waved for most uses, until the player attempts to scout a whole castle, inform him he will have to deal with the refresh. If the refresh doesn't matter (because the duration is always less than 3 mins) then it can be hand waved off.
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
I hope you don't think that this is 'ducking the question'. : )
I'm afraid I do still think this is ducking.
Rings are either command word or continuous based on the rings section. If the ring is unusual, it will indicate how to activate it. Ring of Invisibility doesn't indicate it is unusual and isn't continuous. Therefore it is command word activated.
You are quoting use activated rules, but no rings are use activated.
Except the ring isn't use activated because you don't touch the ring to make someone invis. You also don't swing the ring about.
So you are left with "command word".
Btw, you know that you were indeed wrong about the ring before the year 2000...it's ok to admit it.
Wasn't wrong. 1983 to now the ring worked the same way as it does now. At will command word provides the spell. Prior to 2000 the spell had 24 hr duration or no duration.
That doesn't change my statement, that the ring is at will command word.
No where in the Polymorph section does it say it changes type. It explicitly doesn't change type, because that opens loop holes and grants significantly more power for some things than for other things.
DR only applies to damage tagged with DR types. Like bludgeoning damage in spells. If it isn't a DR type it isn't applied to DR.
Why, in this case or in the case of similar items with short durations but unlimited uses, is continuous valued so much more than command word?
Because you are less likely to be caught if you don't need to reactivate ever so often.
The ring was likely designed to activate to go into combat for a sneak attack with only limited stealth applications.
The fact that a continuous use item is exception for stealth is probably the reason the ring isn't continuous and is command word in the first place.
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
It is 20,000 for command word activated because the price was raised from 10,800 to 20,000 because of how the item creation rules work. The item is too good for 10,800 gp.
Therefore a continuous one is too good for 24,000 gp. It would cost 60% more than the formula or more.
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
You can't understand their ruling and you apparently can't understand my responses. It has always been command word, verbal. At least as far as I ever remember the ring. The duration may have changed based on the duration mechanics of the base spell.
The devs may contradict, but they didn't in the case of these rings.
Before the FAQ, I would have been convinced that there was no way RAI for the Ring of Invisibility intended vocal commands words every three minutes, partly because of expectations from fantasy literature. It turns out I was wrong, per the FAQ, but that doesn't mean expectation have no place in determining RAI.
You were wrong. You were also never at a table I've witnessed with the item. Every single use of that item in every example of people playing modules, scenarios, PVP tournaments, 20th level one off sessions, etc. Every use of the item since 1983 for me has been limited duration and command word or didn't use the item.
I'm not saying you are lying, just that people that viewed the item your way have not played with the item at games I've played or GMed.
It's not like any other invisibility item I can think of in the genre or in legend. From the Cap of Invisibility in Greek Myth down to Harry Potter's Cloak, all of them either worked constantly when worn or could be turned on and off.
Do you see examples in a lot of books where they tell the reader the guy driving the car is turning the steering wheel left or right? No? That is because the mechanics are not very exciting. Every example could have the concept of reactivation every 3 minutes and you the reader wouldn't know.