Thanks for your kind thoughts. It was a quick trip (flew down to Sacramento and back in one day), and I'm glad to be home.
Some thoughts/questions:
1. I'm only taking 100xp for Monday, so I'm putting Vesh at 3090xp just to make it legit since we kind of fudged the level-up. From now on, do we take 150xp per week? I can't remember.
2. Have any of you had a chance to look at the Pathfindet RPG Alpha .PDF yet? I've been able to skim it. If you have, whaddya think about it or Paizo decision to stick with 3.5?
~sj@
Yes, 150 starting next week.
I posted my thoughts on the Hordelings website in this thread: HERE
I am #22 (responding to EldritchKnight).
The Hordelings board is a much calmer place to discuss things like this. They are crazy DDMers but pretty laid back RPers.
It looks like most of the opinions there are, "I really like Paizo's work, but I'm not sticking with 3e, so I will no longer do business with them."
Sadly, I find myself in much the same boat. Yes, Paizo is trying to fix/tweak 3e. But I don't think they can fix the broken mathmatical foundation behind the game without losing backwards compatibility with OGL 3e. That will stop them from making the kind of sweeping changes that are necessary, in my opinion. I'm also concerned that the "open playtest" will just lead to alot of shouting and noise, but little real actionable information. I, for one, am not interested in competing with 1,000 screaming hooligans to have my opinions heard.
I will look over the alpha document and see if there are changes we could/should incorporate in our game. I think there are probably a few that we can adopt - the skill system changes, for example and a few that we might not.
In the meantime, I'm debating whether and when to cancel my subscriptions and move on. I really enjoy the Golarion fluff content and would consider buying products that are 85%+ fluff.
But I'm not impressed with Paizo's crunch: the feats aren't cool, the magic items aren't that special, and the monster statistics are pretty meh. For example, if I didn't tweak out the wrathspawn with 4e concepts (i.e., they rage when "bloodied"), they couldn't hit the broad side of a barn if they were flung into it with a catapult. EDIT: Other monsters (especially BBEGs) have struck me similarly. The writer has a cool concept, yet OGL 3e does not provide a good way to execute it without handing out bonus feats left and right.
And I'm concerned that, with their own system to grow and support, Paizo will have to spend more time and effort on crunch and less on the fluff that got them where they are.
You leap through the doorway arrayed for battle. However, as you set foot across the threshold, your body's immediately register that something is wrong with this room. The floor is sloped upwards to the left.
Make a DC 15 Ref save. If you made the previous Perception check, you get a +2. Failure indicates you fall prone. While in this room, you must succeed on a Balance check DC 12 to move faster than 1/2 speed. Fail that, and you fall prone.
The room itself is like a huge vault with a towering ceiling - but turned halfway on its side. You are on a wide ledge some 20 feet above the floor. A stone stair leads up to your level on the left. A massive pile of crushed stone is all that remains of a similar stair that used to continue up from your level.
Across from you on the lower level, you see the remains of an iron door which has been crushed and folded in on itself, leaving only a narrow gap.
Your attention is quickly drawn to gutteral shrieking and chattering. Three of the split-jawed wrathspawn charge towards you, two by vaulting over the lip of the ledge and one running up the stairs.
Initiative. Also, I'm going to be very busy today until evening again and will not have computer access tomorrow - all day meetings in Oakland. So I will try to get a map up tonight, but combat probably won't start until Friday.
As the icy ray arcs from Slidell's outstretched hand to strike the plate, you all notice the air around the plate shimmer like a mirage in the desert. You stare in disbelief as the plate grows suddenly translucent revealing darkness beyond. Not sure if this is a door or a window, you're doubts are put to rest by a gust of moist air heavy with the reek of flesh emanating from beyond the portal.
Almost immediately, the darkness begins to receede around the edges of the opening and the solid plate starts to reform. You estimate that in a few seconds the opening will be too small to pass through.
Perception DC 20:
Spoiler:
You see shadowy shapes moving about in the darkness beyond the plate. Somemting seems odd, though about the way they move - like they are walking uphill.
No time to debate - either you're going through or not!
I have a tough deadline to make this morning. Should be able to post late this afternoon or in the evening after kids are in bed. Sorry to make everyone wait in supsense. Slidell did the right thing - you will be able to get through now.
Conjuration isn't diametrically opposed to evocation, but it is an oppositional school,... I wonder.
This reasoning seems to be going backwards. If conjuration is in opposition to evocation, then Alzanist herself couldn't open the thing.
Mal wrote:
"Water counters fire. Can you make water appear?"
Oppositional counters are great for the final destuction of something. That is, destroy the unholy sword by placing it on the sacred altar. However, they are not so logically sound for activating/reusing things.
Salome wrote:
"The only thing I know that is not harmed by fire is -- fire,"
Sometimes the "oppositional" counter makes less sense than the "aligned" counter. If doors in the City of Brass (on the elemental plane of fire) required water to open them, the efreet would have a problem. Most "aligned" creatures are not going to want to associate with an "oppositional" material/item/whatever key.
Or in other words: if ya can't beat 'em, join 'em.
FabesMinis wrote:
So, I would theorise that she was an evoker (lends itself to wrath); would casting an evocation spell at the door open it?
That fits all the clues, care to give it a try?
Slidell wrote:
(Well, he DOES have one Evocation spell, but he doesn't know he can cast it yet!)
If that is how you are going to play it... Maybe Vesh can step up again - now that his brain has unscrambled.
My problem with magic item shops is that, the more magic you make available the more it becomes necessary and the more you have the golf bag of magical swords syndrome, which personally, I think is to be avoided. But that is just my taste.
Instead, I let PCs (even non-casters) craft items. At each level a PC gains a number of craft points equal to twice their level. These plus gold can be used to make magical items. The cost in points is equal to the item's level from the Magic Item Compendium. Of course, its a bit more complex than that, but there is the gist.
According the to SRD wealth guidelines, this gives out just about the "proper" amount of wealth for the PCs. But, more importantly, it solves two problems for me.
1. The PCs get stuff they want and are not stuck with the stuff the badguys had.
2. The badguys get stuff they want and are not stuck with stuff the PCs will want.
Your previous translation of the symbols appears to be correct. It does appear to be some sort of homage to Runelord Alzanist.
Slidell wrote:
2)the symbol at the four 'compass points' on the door around the woman,
Spoiler:
This symbol is vaguely familiar. Eventually it dons on you - quite obviously in retrospect - that if Alzanist is the Runelord of Wrath, this symbol is the Rune of Wrath. You recall that each Runelord - there were seven if you are not mistaken - drew their power from one of seven runes which represented ancient Thassilonian virtues. However, at the hands of the selfish Runelords, these virtues were corrupted into vices. Each Rune was also associated with a particular school of magic, of which the associated Runelord was *the* expert practitioner. Although the runelords dabbled in all manner of magic, they each drew power from the Rune/Vice of their dominion; their abilities in other forms of magic were, consequentially, far weaker.
Slidell wrote:
3)racking his brains to try and remember how traps can be setup to be passed by those 'allowed' (passwords, keys, etc.)
Spoiler:
The feeling that Salome described may be consistent with some sort of force field - necessary to prevent access by creatures able to step into shadow to bypass physical obstacles. As to the question of how would a wizard set up a bypass... how would a specialist wizard...
Slidell wrote:
4)searching the door for anything he might have missed that will give him a clue.
She walks right up to the metal plate and walks its length, looking for -- anything -- but being careful not to touch it.
Salome:
Spoiler:
Your close inspection shows that the panel is built flush to the walls, floor, and ceiling. There are no noticeable attachments. It is like the plate was made to perfectly fit the passage's dimensions and shoved into place. Like the rest of the hall, the plate is pristine. It is not scratched or marred and shows no signs of rust or corrosion. It appears to be made from a single sheet of material - there is no evidence of forming or joining. As your hand brushes close to it, your fingers tingle - the sensation is neither warm nor cold, but it is definitely palpable.
Well, if everyone's given up already :( here is a clue.
Wisdom DC 12
Spoiler:
Though it stands to reason this Runelord Alzanist would not care for uninvited guests, you don't think she would make a door that she, or her underlings, couldn't open.
EDIT- This is NOT to say that our diabolical DM should consider taking out the traps/puzzles from the adventure! Far from it! Just a note that after he sees us banging our heads against the wall for a while, he might allow us a roll to see if our characters are smarter than we are! (Since I know mine is smarter than I am!)
(Actually, I think we had this same posted conversation about 4-5 months ago,..NM!) :P
Yeah, and I think that time I said roll first and bang your head later. My expectation *is* that the characters can solve the puzzles just as I expect the characters to kill the badguys, not the players.
Funny thing, that. I think the Gygaxian model has trained us to think that the players need to solve the puzzles - because most of Gygax's puzzles were so stupidly impossible that the player would be on his 10th or 12th character by the time he guessed it right. On the other hand, we have no such disconnect when it comes to killing the monsters. That is to say, for some reason we understand that only the character can kill the monster, but we forget that only the character can disarm the trap/solve the puzzle/etc. Weird.
You notice - or not, as the case may be - that the pinging noise heard earlier has disappeared. Aside from Slidell's yapping and Vesh's pained moans, the passageway is silent.
It's rather obvious, at least to you, that whatever caused Vesh's (and the rest of the party's) injuries was magical in nature and emanated from the embossed image of Runelord Alzanist. However, the nature of the spells used is far from apparent. You have heard of similar spells - ones that spray sheets of flames, or even cause massive explosions, and others that deafen their targets with waves of booming thunder or knock them flat with a palpable shockwave. But two things about this instance stand out as odd.
First, the fire actually ignited you. Despite colorful names like burning hands and fireball magical flames are usually too short-lived and too cold to reach the ignition point for even mundane materials. But this fire was much hotter and much more (for lack of a better word) real.
Second, whatever caused Vesh to bleed out his ears was something you - and apparently nobody else, except Vesh - could neither hear nor feel. It was as if the entire energy of the spell was pin-point focused on him and only him.
I'm assuming the party is falling back at least a few feet to tend to the wounded.
As you recover yourselves in the harshly reflected light, you hazard an occasional glance at the metal plate. It is still and serene - at least as serene as the image of a sneering madwoman that just tried to kill you can be.
I couldn't find any reference to saves under the Stunned entry on d20srd.org. But I think it is logical to assume you fail the save automatically, but Salome extinguishes you as she drags you out of harm's way. That leaves you at 7/17.
Did I get anything from that lame spellcraft check before I got toasted?
Nothing specific
Salome wrote:
After carrying/dragging Vesh away from the wall and to a safer place, Salome again attempts to discern the source of his bleeding and paralysis and do what she can to relieve it. Heal check (1d20+7=25) That should help.
With a splash of water mixed with the seed pod of a northern blue lilly, you revive Vesh from his stupor.
If you are on fire, you take 1d6 fire damage per round. You can attempt to extinguish yourself with another DC 15 Ref save (after taking the damage). Smokey says: "you get a +4 bonus if you Stop, Drop, and Roll".
Cast Resistance, if appropriate. "What can I do?" she asks half to Vesh and half to herself. Heal check (1d20+7=14)
Resistance might be helpful, but I'll give you the Heal result first and you can decide
Salome (& Vesh)
Spoiler:
Vesh is suffering from some sort of paralysis or lack of physical faculties. He is stunned until he can make a saving throw vs. DC given earlier in his spoiler. It is possible to physically move him, but he cannot move on his own.
Since all have had a chance to respond...
You look on in horror as Vesh succumbs to something. While Ehlissa and Salome rush to his aid, a flash of brilliant light streaks from the embossed face and blazes over you.
All take 7 points of fire damage and are caught on fire. Ref save DC 15 for half damage and to avoid being caught on fire.
As you complete the incantation and gaze upon the mirrored wall, you see arcs of magical energy emanating from all around, but especially from the symbols framing the image. You only begin to concentrate on the auras when you feel something go wrong. The woman's face becomes a twisted visage of fear and hate. The symbols pulse in an angry reddish color. A faint buzzing sound in your ears grows suddenly louder and you find your hands involuntarily clasped over your ears in defense. Her mouth is moving. She's saying something to you. But the words are foreign to your mind. She is shouting. Screaming into your head. You try to recoil. Try to call for help. Warm liquid spills from behind your hands. Blood. Your ears are bleeding!
You take 3 points of sonic damage. Make a DC 15 Will save or be stunned.
Others:
Vesh approaches the panel and casts his spell. For a moment, all seems okay as you see him begin to study the image in his mind. Then suddenly he clasps his hands to his ears and staggers back a step. Blood streams down his arms as his face contorts in a strange, silent scream.
Perception DC 15:
Spoiler:
The image on the wall seems to shift ever so slightly as if it is following your movement with its eyes. A feeling of dread overcomes you and you involuntarily take a step back.
Forging ahead cautiously, you are all conscious of the echo of even the slighest noise in the cavernous passageway. No matter how quiet you try to be, everything from your footfalls, to the jingling of armor and weapons, to even the sounds of your breathing appears to echo back to you from the walls and depths of this place. And yet, when you pause to listen, everything is strangely still and silent except for the strange regular ping ... ping ... ping like the light tap of a smith's hammer as he makes the gentle finishing strokes on a piece of work.
The way is straight and you walk for what seems like a long time before the light of Ehlissa's sword is reflected back to you in brilliant glory by a shiny surface stretched across the passage. Dimming your lights slightly so as not to blind yourselves, you see that the passage is blocked by a large, impossibly bright metal plate. Embossed on the plate is the visage of a stern, angular woman. Her eyes are wide, her hair is wild, and her lips are turned in a disdainful sneer. Above her face is an angular symbol: the left half like a slanted distorted "S" and the right half a mirror image of the left. This symbol is repeated in a rotated fashion on each side and below the face.
The metallic pinging sound, still faint, appears to emanate from beyond the panel.
You are twenty feet from the panel.
Slidell:
Spoiler:
"...O Bakrakhan ... shalt thou rise ... O Alzanist ... shalt thou rule ... ere the mighty of Xin ... the mighty of Shalast ... before thee ... in flames ..."
I think Santinj@'s count is accurate. If in doubt, just round it to 3,000 and call it good. Salome should catch up very shortly; I think she is only 2-300 behind.
BTW, I've really tweaked this part of the adventure to avoid long PbP dungeon crawls (and for a few other reasons). However, it is my impression that most parties go through this part of the adventure sooner; i.e., at the beginning of second level or even the tail end of first level.
I don't feel that your level or XP are unjustified, however. You have had to do a lot more work to piece things together than is necessarily written in the module. And I consider it bonus that the party is more robust.
"Me either my friend." Slidell responds absent-mindedly as he closely examines the formation of the smooth, blue-grey walls. HE bends down and begins examining the strip of granite with the symbols on it running the length of the floor.
The symbols indeed appear to be Thassilonian. However, they are large and widely spaced. Within the radius of your lightsource, you can only make out a few syllables: "...rakhan O Alzan..."
EDIT: I vote for a ten xp story award for successfully navigating the dreaded rubble encounter! Who's with me? ;)
OK. May as well get it over with since I think you've got the stats ready to go. Hearing you level up in the halls, the monsters call for Kirk Radomski to deliver some growth hormone! Congratulations. Now that I don't have to worry so much about *accidentally* killing someone, I can throw the kitchen sink at you! ;)
With Malcolm and Vesh steadying the rope, Ehlissa lowers herself to the floor below. Taking a step back, she staggers as she takes in the cyclopean magnitude of the tunnel.
It is wider and deeper than any structure you have seen - much less under ground. The walls, floor, and ceiling are formed of perfectly square stone blocks of an impossibly uniform blue-grey hue. The four corners of the passage have been blasted smooth, forming perfect right angles and exposing bands of white granite running its length. Carved in the sides of these members are an endless stream of symbols.
Aside from the pile of bricks from the opening above, the passage is free of dust and grime as if it has lain untouched for centuries. The air is dead still and you notice, for the first time in this place, bone dry.
The passage continues beyond the light of your sword in both directions. However, from your left, you hear the faint ping of iron on iron.
For reference, the passage is 20' wide and 20' high and runs straight from right to left an unknown distance.
Ok. Ehlissa pulls herself around and is now comfortably facing the party with her toes on a narrow ledge of rock and her face and shoulders framed in the opening.
Vesh scrambles and makes a grab for Ehlissa's hand.
But a loose stone breaks free under his weight and he lands in a cloud of dust at the foot of the rubble.
Ehlissa strains with the effort of holding on. Her fingers are white from exertion slippery with sweat. Make a DC 10 Constitution check (modified for Endurance if applicable).
Options: Ehlissa can let go and fall, possibly using Jump (DC 15) to avoid damage. If someone can toss her a rope (Use Rope DC 10), treat that as Aid Another on the Jump check. If she wants to pull herself up, it will be a DC 15 Strength check - modified for rope as above. If someone else wants to pull her up, first make a Climb check (DC 15) to get up to her safely and with enough leverage to pull. Then the strength DC is 13 since you are working together (like an automatic Aid Another). Could it BE any more complex?!? ;)
Ehlissa scrambles up the pile of rubble and, with a final push from Vesh and Malcolm, crests the summit. However, the back side is a steep drop into darkness and she overbalances on the edge, sending a tumult of loose stone cascading over the edge and crashing to the floor below. Luckily, she reaches back with her free hand and grabs the cavern wall to the side of the opening, catching herself before she too tumbles.
By the light of her sword, Ehlissa can see:
Spoiler:
that the area beyond the wall is a large passageway easily wide enough for four men to walk abreast. The floor is at least ten feet below your feet; the roof is only a couple of feet above your head. The passage extends in both directions beyond the range of your light.
Ehlissa is dangling feet first and back to the party over the edge, holding on with her hand at the side of the gap.
Slidell shines his light around the edge of the opening over the rubble, Careful not to shine it too far down the opening. "Well, shall we?" He says softly.
The pile of bricks and blocks is about 4 feet high by four feet wide and is flanked by the rough stone of the cavern on both sides. A roughly two foot wide by 18 inch high gap is at its summit.
By the lantern light, you can what appears to be worked stone through the gap in the masonry wall. The area appears to extend at least 20 feet beyond the rubble and an unknown distance to either side.
Basically, you had a 4 foot wide by 5 to 6 foot tall wall that has completely collapsed into a 4 foot high pile leaving a gap at the top.
The first person to go up and over needs to make a Climb check and a Ref save.
As you advance cautiously down the passage the slope grows steeper and the floor becomes slick with water. The drip drip drip sound of water falling from the the ceiling echoes from all directions. In some places, water is running in rivulets down the sides of the tunnel. All of this water is pooling at your feet and flowing a lattice of small streams down into the darkness beyond.
The passageway twists and turns, but always descends. Finally, you emerge into a larger chamber. Across from you, on the left side, is a pile of rubble. It appears to be the remains of a masonry wall that once blocked another passage leading from the chamber. The water has collected here as well, forming a brackish pool in the opposite half of the room. A faint gurgling sound emanates from the pool, suggesting that the water may be slowly draining.
When they make their way back to the junction, Slidell, (having seen the blood streaks once they were pointed out by Salome), shines the spot of his lantern around, and searches the area once more,... quickly.
The ground is hard (rock) and does not hold prints. You can see by the light of your lantern that the passageway drops steeply over the next 20 feet or so, then twists around a corner and into darkness. The walls and floor are wet and the air is damp and cool.
A quick look at the cavern floor shows dried streaks of the creature's thick blood leading down the passageway. There is no way to tell if it went under its own power or not, but you are pretty sure it didn't walk.
also, no need to to the prot. evil until combat - it only lasts for one minute.
The trip through the rest of the tunnel goes quickly since you've been through twice before. The area between the side tunnel and the trapdoor appears to be secure.
For all the flak this game has taken over the years - from people who assume it is for "geeks" or "nerds" who can't get a date to the folks who assume we're all casting spells and worshiping Satan - it has really done alot of good and had a pretty profound impact on a lot of lives. In olden days, young boys (and girls) played sports (such as hurley - I'm talking really old here!) to prepare for the rigor of warfare.
Now that we don't all need to defend ourselves from the Huns every month, we have other career options like teacher, accountant, engineer, etc. And what better game is there to prepare kids for the social interactions, improvisation, mental stress, and even math skills needed to succeed in modern life?
Yes, you can do half the same stuff in many computer games, but with the computer enforcing the rules and doing the "hard" work, there is little opportunity to exercise anything but your thumbs. And let's not start on the muddle that adults have made of youth sports.
In short, I think D&D has been great on many levels. And even though the evolving game mechanics have largely obsolesced Mr. Gygax's original, I think he and his collaborators deserve a ton of credit for creating a medium that has allowed so many people to learn, make friends, and express themselves in such diverse ways.
Gygax will be missed; but on the other hand, I think he accomplished more in his life than a lot of people and, despite his passing the game will go on.
Once out of the goblin den the air is a little more breathable, but not much. Following the twisting tunnel for another thirty yards, you come upon the scene of your previous battle with the wrathspawn. Immediately you notice that the body of the creature slain at the entrance to the side tunnel is no longer there. However, the smoldered corpse of the one gutted by Salome and then torched by Slidell lies where it fell - though it looks like it has been gnawed on by something.
The passage ahead leads to the trapdoor and the glassworks. The side passage is where you rescued Ameiko from the wrathspawn.
You cautiously proceed into the cleft, light from the lantern and sunrod glinting off the slick surfaces of the rock walls. Once past the initial chamber, the tunnel widens to where you can walk comfortably in single file - though you still find yourselves ducking under low overhangs and touching the tunnel walls occasionally to keep your balance on the hard, slippery ground.
The stench grows noticably stronger as you round a bend and find yourselves in a room-sized chamber. The ceiling is uncomfortably low, just at the point where the taller members of the party have to stoop to avoid scraping their heads. The floor of the chamber is strewn with moist straw, bones, and offal. In the dim light you can just make out dark shapes - rats, or worse - crawling amongst the filth.
Opposite you, the tunnel continues into blackness.
After informing the guards at the front door of your purpose, you make your way around to the back of the glassworks building. The clifftop is still cloaked in shadow and a cool breeze blows off the water causing you to pull your cloaks tighter as you prepare for the day ahead. With little difficulty, you locate a solid piece of metal to tie off the rope and cast it over the edge of the cliff.
The cliff is steep, but not vertical and within 15 minutes you are assembled at the cave entrance on a narow outcropping some 20-30 feet above the beach. The cave mouth is little more than a cleft in the stone barely wide enough to permit a person to step through. You can see that the ground within is firm and the walls are rough stone, but aside from that it is completely black within the cave. One thing you do notice, however, is a peculiar stink: like spoiled food mixed with an unclean stable. The smell is definitely coming from within the cave.
After you have assembled in the common room, Ameiko and Bethana greet you, the later carrying a basket filled with fresh bread, salted meat, cheese, and fruit along with a pair of waterskins.
"Yes, I know - this is hardly a picnic, but it's the best we had on short notice. Everything is well wrapped so as long as you don't drop it in the ocean, it should last until you are hungry. The guards are expecting you and will let you in at the back door if you like. I hope this really is nothing, but if for some reason you aren't back by the time the sheriff gets in, we'll send help."
OK, you are set with one day's "trail rations". Let me know if you are going by way of trapdoor or cave and we'll pick it up there.
2: bless weapon(D), close wounds, spiritual weapon
I would use guidance on the first round of a fight where you win the initiative and are not in immediate danger or when you have surprise.
Bless is a good first round spell in any combat, as is resistance.
Use iron guts on the party member with the weakest Fort save either right before a fight with wrathspawn (it has a long enough duration that you can do that) or after that person is poisoned - it will help them shake the poison faster.
Bless weapon and Spiritual weapon don't play well together, so plan to use them in separate encounters.
Light of lunia is best cast before a fight so you can discharge it on the first round if you want. Note that it has a long enough duration that you don't necessarily need to use it in the first fight, but can save it for the next.
General rule, (Correct me on this if you think I'm wrong guys) You almost can never go wrong with a 'Buff' or 'boost' spell, because those affect you, and can't fail.
Yes, but always spending the first round buffing the party and the second and subsequent rounds healing casualties can get old after awhile. Sometimes it's nice just to hit the enemy, too.
It's hard to find good cleric spells sometimes because there is so much overlap. Just looking through the SC, I see 2 or 3 spells that give bonuses to saves, for example.
Here are some useful cleric spells and why I think they're good.
zero level guidance a good spell to use before combat or in a surprise round when you don't otherwise have a good target. Also very useful in non-combat situations.
light better than a torch
first level bane I like bane better than the other first level nerf spells because it affects all enemies in a burst; you can use it in close quarters without harming your allies and, with luck, at least a few enemies will fail the save - better odds than an all or nothing spell like doom or command.
bless good because the +1 to hit is genuinely useful, it affects the entire party, and has a big enough range that special positioning is usually not required to cast it; i.e., if you are in the room, you benefit.
divine favor attack and damage booster that increases in strenth pretty quickly (+1 per 3 levels) and is the only way a high level cleric is going to be effective in combat.
light of lunia like light, but with some combat potential; can do total of 4d6 damage to undead or evil outsiders (requires two ranged touch attacks and SR applies, but that is great damage for a first level spell.)
nimbus of light similar to light of lunia, but cannot double as a light spell - the duration is too short; However, it can potentially do more damage (1d8 + CL, with no cap on CL given). It requires a full round action to fire, though, and so is probably the inferior option.
shield of faith/prot. evil both good situational spells. Shield is better as your level increases and can make a well armored cleric very hard to hit. Protection from evil is better vs. outsiders because it completely hedges out outsiders and summoned creatures.
second level bless weapon technically a paladin spell, but Salome has access through the Glory domain. It is as good as align weapon + half the effect of magic weapon. In fact, on a mwk. weapon, it is practically as good as both of those spells combined (you are only losing out on the +1 damage from magic weapon). Furthermore, with a scimitar, which has an 18-20 crit range, there is a good chance of getting a crit with it once per encounter.
close wounds stabilize an ally as an immediate action (so you don't have to waste your turn casting a cure spell or risk them dying before you can get to them.
light of mercuria similar to light of lunia, but put 8d6 points of hurt on an undead or evil outsider. At 3rd level - ouch!
quick march another swift spell, this one grants the party +30 speed for one round. Ideal if used during a surprise round or any time when combat is opened at long range because it allows the party to close or encircle the enemy; it is also good for a sudden retreat - like swift expeditious retreat, but affects the whole party.
resist energy it's pretty obvious why this is useful.
spiritual weapon since this spell uses your Wis bonus to attack, there is a sweet spot between levels 3 and 8 (at level 9, you get some good damage causing spells) where spiritual weapon is probably better than attacking personally. Also the spell's range lets you sic it on someone halfway across the battlefield without putting yourself at risk. You don't lose an attack to cast it, since it attacks in the first round, and it allows you to continue attacking while casting spells in subsequent rounds.
Also, a housekeeping note. Since using the turn undead causes damage rule makes disrupt undead a rather pointless spell, I think it is fair to replace it in the Glory domain with light of lunia. In general if we house rule something that ends up making a class feature pointless or worse, useless, let me know and we'll fix it. Since adopting the turn for damage rule, I've noticed feats and rules popping up left and right that potentially do not mesh with it. Also, there are some Radiant Servant class features related to Maximized cure spells that we'll need to tweak for Salome when we get there. (Because she can already maximize cure spells if cast out of combat).
Vesh gets up and asks Ameiko about the firetrapped trapdoor and if she knows a safer way to bypass the trap, or if it has been deactivated since we were there.
"Oh, that. I'd almost forgotten. Did you see the imprint of my family seal? By pressing a signet ring - here borrow mine - to the seal you can deactivate the trap for 5 minutes. It works from below, too."
When asked about her stint as an adventurer, Ameiko grows very quiet and withdraws. "It's nothing really. I... We... It's better not spoken of." She glances nervously towards the rest of the group and busies herself with menial tasks alongside Vesh.
After a few minutes, she apparently sensing the irony of the situation and through a mischevious smirk remarks, "its amazing how much work gets done when people don't want to talk. Thank you for your help, Vesh, but you really should turn in early tonight. You need to be sharp for tomorrow. You never know what could be down there."
I should put this in the discussion thread, but I'm already typing here. Antitoxin is a good idea. However, don't forget that the Heal skill can be used in place of a saving throw vs. poison (though probably not so well during combat). There are also spells like ironguts, which gives a +5 save bonus vs. poison for 10 min/level and good old delay poison which is probably more useful vs. damaging poisons, but could also be good for getting someone through a fight until they can receive medical attention afterwards.
...he finds Malcolm and waits with him until the group decides when to enter the caves.
I'm going to assume that since Slidell just alarmed the trapdoor, and it is now early evening that there is no reason to go in there on an empty stomach, so...
Supper at the Rusty Dragon:
The common room is bustling tonight, which is a strange sight after having the place to yourselves the last couple of days. However, as befits the circumstances, the mood is somewhat somber and people are for the most part eating their meals and drinking their drinks quietly.
The mellowness of the crowd allows Ameiko to join you at the table. "Well, I'm almost through cleaning out the glassworks - and having my father put to rest is a big load off my chest. But did you get a load of Scarnetti today? He was so into his ledgers that you'd think he was at a board meeting! And the Mayor... sometimes I'm just not sure what to make of her. I survived five years on the road, belly-crawling through swamps, sneaking through haunted ruins, and climbing out of pits full of snakes - but this town council is going to kill me!"
"Anyway, I can't stay and chat long. I'll have Bethana put together something for you to take along tomorrow morning and I'll let the guards know to expect you. The alarm should have run its course by then, so you'll have no problem going in through the trapdoor if you want. Otherwise, it is pretty easy to get up to the cave - or even to climb down the cliff straight to it. There is a metal post under one of the windows where Tsuto and I used to tie off a line to do just that. You need a pretty long rope, though."
"Oh, good luck. I don't know if there's really anything down there, but be careful!"
Feel free to continue your conversations and note any preparation on your character sheets. I'll see you at the tunnel entrance of your choice.
"the man sitting next to Titus Scarnetti. Who was that?"
"Oh. Huh. Him? That's Banny Harker. He operates one of the Scarnetti's two lumber mills in town. They are always talking business: Banny and Titus."
"Yes. And Banny is also my sister Katrine's fiancee." says a warm, familiar voice from behind you. It is Shayliss, of course, and she is dressed in a fine, if tight fitting gown - not really the sort of thing you would expect at an outdoor funeral. "Daddy says Mr. Scarnetti has made Banny tremendously wealthy. He also says it doesn't hurt that Banny would sooner part with both this thumbs than a copper. Or that's what Daddy says. You should have seen the dowery he demanded for Katrine. But I got the better deal."
With that she boldy leans in an plants a wet kiss on Vesh's lips.
"Shayliss. We are leaving. Say goodbye to Vish and come up here at once." It is Ven calling from the cliff above.
Shayliss leaves, but not before waving goodbye and making a show of brushing some sand off of her gown.
For Slidell:
Spoiler:
Veran saw that the papers were lined and had numbers on them. Being a raven, I don't think he could reasonably determine much more than that. I don't know where you are going with this information. It is tangential. Also, the early business with the Varisians and Scarnettis did not involve Titus personally.
Before you leave, Ameiko has Slidell cast an alarm spell on the trapdoor. Inside, you notice that the contents of the rest of the building has been moved to the workroom. Two large piles, one labeled "sell" and the other "burn" dominate the floor.
Craft points are 2 per CL and accumulate, so those who have spent none will have 12. Feats do cost money - the same as the material cost for making an "average" item of that level. Specifically, that is 300 gp to buy a feat at 3rd level. That represents some cost which you can RP as you see fit; e.g., paying a tutor, initiation fee in an order, etc. Since I don't think anyone is sitting on that much coin, it looks like you'll have to wait until you kill some baddies and take their money.
"I believe the Sheriff is returning tomorrow as well. We'll probably need to report to him directly. Then, the tunnels the next day? Do we have everything we need?"
After the service, the Mayor seeks your group out and informs you that this is indeed the case. Sheriff Hemlock is expected sometime the following afternoon. Outriders arrived in town this morning with news of his return and that Magnimar had supplied only a dozen or so green soldiers for the town's defense. The mayor seems upset and worried by the small show of support from the regional authorities and you notice she continues to glance at the glassworks building as if expecting a monster to leap out at any moment.
"I know we have probably asked one favor too many of you in your stay here, but dealing with whatever threat lies below our town is a high priority for the Council. Did Ameiko tell you that we are prepared to offer 2,000 gp for ensuring that the tunnels are free of threats? I know the Sheriff will want to meet with you, too, but dealing with the tunnels really must take precedence. We have precious few soldiers as its is and I don't want..." she stops short and wipes her brow with her sleeve, tusseling her hair in the process. "I want this business ended!"
The funeral is a small, somber affair held on the grassy cliff top to the west of the glassworks. A pair of guards stands ready beside the building's backdoor - the same door you entered through a couple of days ago. Simple wooden chairs and benches are arrayed in a loose semicircle facing west, towards the open sea. A small platform has been erected 10 yards from the cliff face. In front of the platform lies a closed coffin. You heard from Ameiko that it took hours for a couple of workers to chip the glass off of Lonjiku's corpse so that he could be laid out in the coffin. Even so, his body was nearly twice as heavy as he was in life and so provisions had to be made for extra pallbearers to help move the coffin.
There are not many people in attendance, but you recognize the Mayor and Titus Scarnetti, one of the town's council members, seated to the side of the speaker's platform.
The service begins with Ameiko welcoming and thanking the attendees. She gives a brief history of her father's life, telling how he was born to immigrants in Magnimar, worked hard to build the family business and amass a small fortune by age 20, invested heavily in the Sandpoint Mercantile League, and finally moved with his young wife and infant son to Sandpoint 40 years ago. She does not go into many details after that and quickly turns the podium over to the mayor.
Mayor Deverin's eulogy focuses on Lonjiku's dedication to the town of Sandpoint and the tremendous influence he has had on the town through its first forty years. She emphasizes his steadying influence on the town council and how he has always been an advocate for cooperation and compromise. She looks directly at Titus Scarnetti as she says this. While the mayor waxes on in her praise, you can't help but notice Scarnetti talking in hushed tones to the man next to him while the two peruse a sheaf of papers. The mayor concludes by thanking Ameiko for her willingness to accept her father's duties on the council until an election can be held. Looking in your direction, she also gushes about "the Heroes of Sandpoint and how the town is once again the beneficiary of their bravery, courage, and commitment to truth and justice." This is enough to get Scarnetti's attention and he looks straight at you for a brief moment before returning to his conversation.
Following the eulogy, a number of pallbearers hoist the coffin and lead the funeral procession down a steep path to the beach some 50 feet below. Awaiting in shallow water is a small boat. The coffin is placed in the boat and it is pushed out to sea. While on the beach you notice a number of caves and clefts in the cliff face. After the service, Ameiko points out a cave about half way up and towards the north end of the beach as the one leading into the tunnel complex under the glassworks. She then invites you to dine with her that evening at the Rusty Dragon before going off to thank a group of well-wishers.
So the net difference from your 2nd level values is +1 in all 4 stats.
Dreamer wrote:
HP: (how do you figure this out?)
Roll the d8 and take your result or 4, whichever is better. Add Con bonus. So you will get at least 5 but no more than 9 hp.
Dreamer wrote:
Skills: I need to figure this out too.
You get 4 skill points (2 for cleric, 1 for human, 1 for Int)
3rd level feat: Extra Turning
Dreamer wrote:
Is that everything?
You get 6 craft points, but likely don't have any money to make something at this time.
Also, you get to prepare second level spells now. You get 3 second level spells (1 for cleric, 1 for Wis score, and 1 domain spell). I think the 2nd level Glory domain spell is bless weapon, which is a good one, especially with a scimitar, because it allows your crits to automatically confirm (i.e., the second roll to see if the crit is really a crit automatically succeeds) and gives the weapon a good alignment, which is essential for overcoming the damage reduction of some Evil entities. It might be good to partner this with detect evil so you can tell the difference between Evil and evil.
You can also adjust your cure spell healing to 1d8+4 for clw and 2d8+4 for cure moderate wounds, your turning damage goes up to 4d6 (dang, that's powerful; I might need to adjust those rules), but the DC remains the same (it goes up with even levels).
After a night's rest, you go about your morning business. Ameiko is again at the glassworks overseeing cleanup and attending to family business. The market is still in full swing, but the crowds appear dwindled and some of the merchants are in the process of packing unsold wares alongside new acquisitions as they make ready to break camp and move on to the next small town market.
Salome and Slidell need to spend some time on item creation so they can do that now. Others can do as they please.
Upon returning to the Rusty Dragon, you note a sign on the door indicating that Lonjiku's funeral will be held tomorrow and the common room will re-open to the public the following day.
Later in the evening as you are enjoying supper, Ameiko stops by your table. She is holding a bundle of tightly rolled scrolls and papers under one arm. She indicates that cleanup at the glassworks is still in progress. There have been no disturbances, but the guards posted inside have reported faint scratching noises and general uneasiness at guarding the entrance to the tunnels below. She presents you with the bundle of scrolls and says, "I bought these at the market to help with security until you are able to investigate the tunnels, but I need Slidell's help to cast the spell. Is he around? Also, I can show you the other tunnel entrance tomorrow after the funeral. You will be there, I hope. We are having a service outside the glassworks, then carrying the body down to the sea to a traditional Minkai burial ship."
You raise a good point, but it assumes something I'm not sure everyone would agree on: that higher-level fighters should be any better at kicking out tables from underneath people.
Maybe in RL it shouldn't make a difference, but in a game of heroic fantasy, I think most would agree that it should. After all, isn't the reason that most people on this board play D&D instead of cribbage the opportunity to do nifty creative stunts like that.
Vegepygmy wrote:
But let's assume that we agree they should. Fine. Make it opposed BAB + Str vs. Reflex and voila! Problem solved.
And this is probably exactly what the 4E check boils down to: a function of the kicker's class, level, and strength score vs. a function of the defender's class, level, and dexterity.
But look at all the folks above you in this thread who didn't see that solution and honestly tell me that you saw that solution before I pointed out the problems with their proposals. The fact is that it's anything but obvious and even experienced gamers are not likely to see it.
Vegepygmy wrote:
My point is this: not only do we not need a new edition to solve this "problem" for us, but a new edition isn't going to make it significantly easier to solve it for ourselves, either.
If all the new edition does is flatten out the progression of "attack" and "defense" numbers so that a statement like "Strength attack vs. Reflex defense" has some meaning across the level spectrum, then it will have really done alot to make it easier for people to solve the problem. Now even a novice DM with no mind for numbers can say "your action is [Martial/Arcane/Divine/whatever] and based on [attribute] his defense is based on [AC/Fort/Ref/Will]" and be relatively assured of at least a "playable" result.
BTW, to consider your solution at 20th level, the fighter will be at +30ish and the rogue's Ref save will be at +24ish. The figher will still win 70-80%.
Part of the reason is that a d20 is just not that large of a spread and overcoming more than a 3-4 point difference in modifiers is really unlikely.
Here is a rule of thumb: even modifiers is 50-50 (obviously). +1 difference is 60-40. Increase by 5% for every additional +1 so at +2 it is 65-35 and at +3 it is 70-30, etc. So to keep things within about a 75-25 range (I'm not going to take an action if my chance of success is less than 25%), you have to keep modifiers within about 4 or 5 points, which is not easy to do under 3E rules.
You are probably right in some sense. I think DDM informed the design team of a number of goofy things about movement in combat in 3E that needed to be ironed out.
But if you think the DDM game is not complex enough for you, you probably haven't tried it in a high REL enviornment with people who know what they are doing. You might want to give it a shot - see if it is really the kids' game you imagine.
I think what's most interesting about this is not the DM's judgement (most seem to agree that some measure of strength vs. some measure of reaction or dexterity is the best call) but whether it results in a "playable" result.
What I mean is that in 3.5E there is often a large difference between ability modifiers, skill modifiers, and save modifiers such that to oppose one type of roll with another results in a gimmme.
Consider for simplicity a first level fighter attempting to kick the table out from under a first level rogue and a first level wizard. Assume a typical elite ability score distribution and no outside modifiers.
The fighter's strength check is at +2 (15 Str). The rogue's Ref save is at +4 (+2 base, +2 ability). The wizard's Ref save is +0. The rogue's [Dex based skill of your choice] is at +6 (4 ranks +2 ability). The wizard's is at +0.
So already at 1st level you have a situation where the rogue is very likely to remain standing and the wizard is moderately likely to take a spill.
Advance everyone to about 10th level and try again.
The fighter's strength check will be at a +6 give or take. The rogue's Ref save will be +15 (+7 base, +6 ability, +2 booster). The rogue's skill check will be at +21 (13 ranks, synergy, +6 ability). The wizards Ref save will be at +5 (+3 base, +2 booster) and his skill check may still be a +0.
Now there is virtually no way the rogue falls it is likely the wizard remains standing, too. So why even bother trying the maneuver.
Let's try 20th level.
The figher's strength check will be at +10 or +12, maybe. The rogue's Ref save will be +24 or so, his skill check will be in excess of +30. Even the wizard will likely have a save at +10 or +11, but still a skill check at +0.
Again, the rogue is almost automatic to stay on his feet and, if you allow the wizard a Ref save, he will stay standing, too.
Which brings me to my point: there are alot of sharp DMs who can rule that a good mechanic is strength vs. reflexes. However, making that ruling is meaningless unless the game system supports that mechanic in a way that is "playable" (i.e., fun, reasonably realistic, and not completely deterministic). A problem with 3.5E is that ability modifiers, attack modifiers, save modifiers, and skill modifiers progress at such different rates that it is virtually impossible for an opposed check such as Strengh vs. Reflex save or Strength vs. Balance skill to produce a meaningful outcome across the full scope of the campaign.
I am hopeful that this is the kind of mechanical problem with 3.5E that the developers have put on their thinking caps to address in 4E. From what I have seen so far (which isn't much, but I have read through stat cards, etc.) the developers appear to be aware of this problem and have hopefully determined a way to fix it so that a "natural" ruling like Strength vs. Ref Def has meaning in the game.
I also grin as the Varisians began to play their music "One thing that can be said for your people above all else, they know how to have a good time!" I say to Vesh, scanning the room for a comely lass with whom I can dance.
You scarcely have a chance to look around before you are pulled into a circle of dancers. Though unfamiliar with the steps, you quickly learn the basics: step to the left, right, left, and around the circle to the right, then repeating in the opposite direction. The ale and wine is flowing freely now, and the dancers, who are becomming a bit sodden, appear blissfully unaware of your sometimes clumsy attempts to keep up.
Do you guys have any objectives here, or are you just hanging out? I'm a little loathe to have something spontaneously happen with only half the party around - it makes it boring for the others to have to wait, so if you have a plan, it's your move...
We interrupt this trip to the bar for the following commercial message: I am trying to catch up after a few busy days. Also, I know we're getting close to third level and have some dungeon delving coming up. Ideally, I would prefer not to level up in the dungeon. However, I would also like to avoid having to wait to start the dungeon or leave the dungeon after the first encounter so people can do level upkeep. Therefore, I suggest people start work on their 3rd level stuff now (in the discussion thread) and it will take effect instantly - probably after the next fight - so we don't have to pause everything and return to town. Now back to our regularly scheduled program...
The Fatman's Feedbag is practically bursting at the seems as every Varisian in Sandpoint - along with twenty or thirty of their brothers, sisters, and cousins appears to be there. You draw scarcely a sideways glance as you muscle your way through the crowd and into the dimly lit taproom. A barmaid, tray laden with foaming mugs of ale swerves to avoid you, cursing under her breath as a jostle from another patron sends a cascade of foam onto the floor.
"What'll it be?", snarls the barkeep, a dark-skinned man with three days' growth of beard and a nasty scar above his right eye.
1. Shadow points
I tried to make them an easier point system than Hit points. They are supposed to be identical to hit points, with the exceptions of how their used and you don't roll them.
Fair enough.
The one "problem" with point systems vs. per day systems is that you have to gauge the relative power of different abilities much more explicitly with a point system. Is ability A worth twice as much as ability B or half as much as ability C? It is very difficult to determine the total power of a character build when they use points because there are so many combinations of options at their disposal. They can bang away with a low cost option every round or they can go for one high cost option or some combo in between. Even if you do end up with something that is balanced at one level, it takes very little to suddenly unbalance it at a higher level.
I think this kind of trickiness is why designers have shied away from a point based system even when it seems so "obviously better" than the Vancian system. By means of comparison, a 6th level spell is not equivalent to two 3rd level spells (some are better, some are worse). But with a point system you have explicitly made a six-point power equivalent to two uses of a three-point power.
True, a 20th level SRD sorcerer can cast 50+ magic missiles a day, so why is that different from a point system? Really, he is paying alot more for some of those MMs (using higher level spell slots) so the more MMs he casts the higher the cost of each one - thus balance (or at least a more balanced state than if he could trade 5 MMs for a timely Confusion spell).
In any point based system the players have a very wide latitude to optimize and that can make the DMs job harder.
Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:
2. Craft DCs are very high.
Yes I am fairly sure I did. They are tough, but they are supposed to be. And some are impossible at some levels.
OK. One suggestion would be to determine the level at which you think a character should have access to an ability and compute the required DC as [Reliability] + [1.7*level + 3]x[focus] where [Reliability] is a number between 1 and 20 representing how much of a gimme the power should be. 1 works every time and 20 works next to never. I suggest thinking carefully about any number higher than 5 because many folks are not going to try such a longshot action if they have a more reliable alternative. [1.7*level +3] represents the assumed skill bonus and takes into account ability modifier, skill focus, synergy bonus, and misc. bonuses (e.g., from items, temporary buffs, luck bonuses, etc.). [focus] represents how much the skill means to the character and is a number between 0 and 1. One means every character should max this skill. 0.5-0.75 is probably a reasonable range. Using this system, I think a 20th level character who maxes the skill should have about a +37 bonus (23 from skill ranks, 5 from ability modifier (with buff, perhaps), 3 from skill focus, 2 from synergy and 4 from a skill booster) and hit DC 43 as a gimme and DC 53 as a stretch. If I were the player, I would seldom attempt an action with DC greater than 50 because there is likely something else I could do with more certainty.
Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:
3. Too many options.
Fair concerns. I was thinking about the shadow limbs my self, but they are fin as is. The majority of the personalizing is in the feats you select and Planer Shift selected limbs.
I still think the combination of set class abilities and no multi-classing makes Jack a rather dull boy. I am willing to concede, however, that this is a personal bias...
Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:
4. 1.75/level? Is a fraction really necessary?
Yeah, I put that there for math purposses, and to help deal with epic levels. Do you have a problem with how many points they get?
I am just curious as to your logic. Is one too little? Is two too much? Maybe working out the sample charactes as Turin suggests will provide a better basis to judge this. See also comment above about the general difficulty of gauging point-based powers vs. dailies.
Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:
6. I would reconsider some of the action types. Free actions can not be performed on another person's action, and yes I intended that these be free, this flexibility was intended in design.
My mistake. Even the SRD is a little ambiguous on the point, however. I have basically replaced all free actions with either swift or immediate actions so it is more clear when they can be used. Again, I think the sample character build will give us an idea of whether the character can do too much in a round. As an aside, I love swift actions and wish there were more of them.
Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:
7. Heavy armor in a high Dex class? ...
Oops. Truncation. Oh well.
I suggest *not* giving the class proficiency in heavy armor, but allowing them to create "heavy" shadow armor that is the equivalent of heavy armor for AC purposes, but counts as light armor with corresponding low Armor Check penalties and high max dex bonuses. This seems more in flavor to me and seems to accomplish what you want - a high dex tank.
Perhaps, for example Shadow Full Plate: Light Armor +6 AC +6 Max Dex -1 AC penalty (penalty does not apply to Hide and Move Silently). It's a little worse than standard full plate in the raw AC, but will probably result in the kind of AC you are shooting for when the Dex bonus is factored in.
I will check back in after you have had a chance to create a sample character or two. I think that will greatly inform us as to the utility and relative power/weaknesses of the class.
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