ID-TheDemonOfElru's page

The Mounted Fury archetype seems to be the winner so far, touches on a lot of the points essential to his flavour. The Order Of The Cockatrice Cavalier is also a very valid option.

A lot of good suggestions here.

Now onto part 2 of my build ideas, what would be the most appropriate armour and weapon he could afford with his starting money (108’000 GP) to build with I either case?

Since he doesn’t get Fast Movement in either case Heavy Armour seems appropriate, he also wields a Halberd (I assume, though they are many variants). So the question is what enchantments should these items have to maximize his performance in battle?

Any other essential items anyone can think of? I was contemplating a belt that granted a continual Enlarge Person effect, that seems quite doable. (1st Level Spell, CL 3rd minimum, etc)

Well as Barbarian the Rge certainly fits but the lack of Heavy Armour and the missing Mount (Red Hare) makes it seem unlikely.

Cavalier also works very nicely.

Hello there everyone,

Looking for some advice or character build ideas to fit with the concept of “Lu Bu” from the Dynasty Warriors franchise for Pathfinder.

I have multiple ideas, a human halberd user with a special mount (I was considering Marshal to get the mount) of giant size (easy enough to get “Enlarge Person” permanenced or through an item)

Character Level is 12th at this point. Wondering what ideas people have for such a character. Any tips or input is appreciated.

A good old fashioned “Alarm” spell will do the trick also, a not to be understated spell.

Then “Rope Trick” is invaluable to literally hide the whole party inside the most inconvenient of spaces or dungeons safety. Combine the two and you should be pretty safe.

Mithral Fullplate and/or Boots Of Striding and Springing, if you don’t want to be worrying about class features or feats to try and increase it that way.

Fair enough. Thanks for the Bypass FAQ.

Regarding caster level and created items (from item creation rules)

While item creation costs are handled in detail below, note that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the item.

A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. (In this case WISH or MIRACLE need a 17th caster level minimum as a requirement, if it is a requirement then without being high enough level you count as +5 for not meeting it. You cannot cast a WISH or a MIRACLE into this item using Caster Level 1st for example because that would break the system. It clearly doesn’t allow it. The CL has to be the minimum for the spell required, without it there should be a +5 difficulty for not being high enough level)

Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.

So for not having access to Wish/Miracle, not being CL 17th the DC would be +10 since it stacks per prequisite you fail to meet.

Failing by 5 or more automatically results in a cursed item, so the risks are high. You also need the correct Item Creation Feat.

The above text doesn’t imply that you can upgrade it without a WISH or MIRACLE, only that if YOU don’t possess it it has to still come from another source (another spell caster who possesses what you need) but the DC still increased by 5 because you aren’t the one who met the prequisite itself.

Well the prequsiite for the tomes are “Wish” spells which require a Caster Level of 17th, so you need the prequisites not just the gold.

But you could upgrade a tome with the appropriate Feat, Spells, Gold and so on like any other magic item. They would have to pay the difference from +1 to +2 in that case and so on. It isn’t a cheap upgrade by any margin.

CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS

Aura strong evocation (if miracle is used); CL 17th

Craft Wondrous Item, wish or miracle; Cost 26,250 gp (+1), 52,500 gp (+2), 78,750 gp (+3), 105,000 gp (+4), 131,250 gp (+5)

As for DC for Spellcraft...

Magic Item Creation
To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats which allow them to invest time and money in an item's creation. At the end of this process, the spellcaster must make a single skill check (usually Spellcraft, but sometimes another skill) to finish the item. If an item type has multiple possible skills, you choose which skill to make the check with. The DC to create a magic item is 5 + the caster level for the item. Failing this check means that the item does not function and the materials and time are wasted. Failing this check by 5 or more results in a cursed item (see Cursed Items for more information).

So 5 + Caster Level, So 22 minimum for the upgrade each time regardless of what bonus it’s going from.

As for how long it takes to upgrade...

The creator also needs a fairly quiet, comfortable, and well-lit place in which to work. Any place suitable for preparing spells is suitable for making items. Creating an item requires 8 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item's base price (or fraction thereof), with a minimum of at least 8 hours. Potions and scrolls are an exception to this rule; they can take as little as 2 hours to create (if their base price is 250 gp or less). Scrolls and potions whose base price is more than 250 gp, but less than 1,000 gp, take 8 hours to create, just like any other magic item. The character must spend the gold at the beginning of the construction process. Regardless of the time needed for construction, a caster can create no more than one magic item per day. This process can be accelerated to 4 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item's base price (or fraction thereof) by increasing the DC to create the item by +5.

Other examples are to soften up the boss, the party members probably don’t know the Serpentfolks stats off my heart so add a negative template to it, other examples would be to say the Serpentfolk is probably diseased (weaken accordingly), cursed (and hasn’t yet removed it), was involved in a prior battle and had was softened up.

Alternatively you could add a third party into the mix, something “bursts in” and starts fighting everyone, starting with the bad guy. Nothing scary hard just enough of a distraction to buy the players time.

Alternatively just have him take off as someone said, leave the players to his “minions” like some full of himself bad guy that he may be.

We already did lol

That’s why I’m surprised this thread is still ongoing. People are debating what authority or power Orcus has over one of his (now former) Clerics.

Well one artefact that still exists from the old days is that Elves are immune to Ghoul Paralysis still, that’s an artefact from way way back on tabletop games where Ghouls per unit cost less than Elves, to offset the difference they made the Elves immune to their paralysis.

Or something to that effect. But it still exists today, inexplicably in roleplaying games.

I specifically remember a section of Undermountain in AD&D that dropped the whole party into a anti magic chamber filled with mutated trolls. That did not end well.

(Just giving this a bump, pasting from the previous page to give context to those here, it sounds like this context is missing from those debating on this page)

The player knew fine well Orcus could not directly do anything in Sigil, but a huge element to the sheer gravity of what they did is that In Sigil, all the Evil God's are housed in one temple in Sigil, Good God's in another, all kept in check by the Lady Of Pain.

He did it because the other God's (and enemies of Orcus) would SEE what he did, and Orcus isnt the kind of God would stand aside and allow a slight of this magnitude by what is essentially one of his highest level Clerics (Lv 12 Cleric / Lv 2 Bard) who for all intensive purposes wanted to get revenge in the most public of forums.

Needless to say, I warned him multiple times over but his answers never changed. He literally quoted Orcus as only being equipped with his +6 Mace and quoted his statistics as he believed them to be, saying not now but down the road he was certain somehow he could dethrone him and take his spot. All of this done infront of the faithful of the Diety who were all shaken by what happened. He used that shock to escape rapidly after his adamantine sword took the head off the statue, even though the mob chased him he had already planned a contrived escape via Invisibility and Expeditious Retreat, as well as literally paying some poor schmuck to dress up like him and loiter nearby who was the first target they went after.

It was purely the discussion of what Orcus COULD do, that set him off. He wasn't some pleb to the God, he was someone of significance, furthermore he showed Orcus up infront of his enemies and other evil Dieties and lost Orcus face, essentially made him look like a laughing stock (his whole point).

He believed only CR appropiate "agents" should come after him, and while I stressed this may be the case to start with, the sheer gravitas of what he did merited a more harsher response and he could be very well facing hit squads of Demons or Undead tooled specifically to his demise or to bring him in, make an example of him so this kind of behaviour was never repeated.

His meglomania knew no bounds - he planned to aim for Lichdom down the road or Vampirism if that failed once he gained more levels and he already had a Vampire Cohort (who was pretty weak but a Vampire all the same) who he planned to use to create more thralls ontop of his extensive Leadership following.

But this is NOT an isolated behaviour of this player, there was instances in the past where he frequently acted without thinking it through and bemoaned the fallout of said consequences. Here's a few examples.

- NPC quest giver asks the party to save their mother who is cursed into an undead state. The players managed to have the curse lifted but a side effect of the curse was she aged horribly. The character felt "she was going to Hell anyway" because she killed people as an undead and offered to "save her" by turning her undead again. When the NPC quest giver was understandably upset by this offer he acted like it was the most confusing response ever and wondered why the party was groaning and shaking their heads. Some good Diplomacy on the Party Leaders part managed to massage the situation into something salvageable.
- He went into a small town and boasted about "summoning a few Succubi and opening a brothel" openly and loudly, "I can get all their coin and souls, it's a brilliant idea" he also said loudly. News reached the towns mayor who contacted the Party Leader, who was deeply concerned by his characters claim. He didn't even deny it when confronted, he wanted to kill the Mayor for "causing him trouble" with the party. It took alot for the party to fix his mess there again.
- The party were fighting a rather powerful etheral undead, a variant of a Banshee and whole two party members were in really bad shape in the fight he literally tried to stop the party fighting it because "he wanted it". He planned to control it somehow he said and didn't want them killing it. His actions nearly caused two party member deaths as people had to fight around him and he made their lives difficult. He bemoaned constantly at the loss of his "pet" he wanted.
- He was obsessed with Undead, so much so he advertised quite openly that he wanted to bring back another party members dead love (which was part of his back story)....as a Mummy. "If he loved her he would accept her for what she is" he argued. I explained that would not go down well and the player whose love was to be brought back as his horrid undead mess was supposed to be grateful for the suggestion. They were not. The player constantly talked about how "ungrateful" They were and repeatedly preached how Undead are better than being living any day of the week in his opinion.

Those are just some examples. We have been more than tolerant and understanding of him and it's because he's a friend we put up with it. But he wrote himself out of the game arguing about a "loophole" he found (mentioned in another thread) that he found to get catch free wishes from an Efreeti for 4.5 thousand gold using a Contract Devil he would.bind to draft a contract to protect him from any possible twisting of the wishes, which was never going to fly. He quit for good this time because he wasn't getting his way to exploit that particular loophole (It's all explained on that other thread)

In essence he knew Orcus can’t touch him directly in Sigil because the Lady Of Pain tolerates no direct meddling of any Gods there, but his agents certainly could act.

Hi there!

So I have a bit of a conundrum (well not quite), it’s understood that party members do not get XP for vanquishing beings summoned by Summon Monster/Animated Objects/Summon Nature’s Ally, etc. That XP is factored into the CR of the caster/user of said ability, it is their defeat that nets the experience points.

That being said. Here is the scenario and I want to know what people would do in a similar situation.

The party is going through a clutter filled of room filled with clutter and junk that is being “Animated” as per “Animate Objects” of a creature known as a Ravid (a 3.5 beast, medium serpentine dragon creature that has the ability at will), here is the being in question.

//////
Ravid
Size/Type: Medium Outsider (Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 3d8+3 (16 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), fly 60 ft. (perfect)
Armor Class: 25 (+15 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 25
Base Attack +3. CMB +4 CMD 14
Attack: Tail slap +4 melee (1d6+1 plus positive energy) or tail touch +4 melee touch (positive energy)
Full Attack: Tail slap +4 melee (1d6+1 plus positive energy) and claw +2 melee (1d4 plus positive energy); or tail touch +4 melee touch (positive energy) and claw touch +2 melee touch (positive energy)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Positive energy lash, animate objects
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., flight, immunity to fire
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +3, Will +4
Abilities: Str 13, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 12, Cha 14
Skills: Escape Artist +6, Listen +7, Move Silently +6, Spot +7, Stealth +7, Survival +7
Feats: Improved Initiative, Multiattack
Environment: Positive Energy Plane
Organization: Solitary (1 plus at least 1 animated object)
Challenge Rating: 5
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 4 HD (Medium); 5-9 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: —
Ravids are creatures from the Positive Energy Plane. These bizarre entities imbue creatures with energy by their touch and animate lifeless objects around them. Ravids that make their way to the Material Plane wander about aimlessly, followed by the objects to which they have given life.

A ravid is about 7 feet long and weighs about 75 pounds.

Combat
Ravids fight only in self-defense. A ravid itself is not very powerful but is always accompanied by at least one animated object that defends it.

Positive Energy Lash (Su)
A ravid can make a touch attack or hit with a claw or tail slap attack to infuse a target with positive energy. The energy produces an unpleasant tingle in living creatures, and against undead foes (even incorporeal ones) it deals 2d10 points of damage.

Animate Objects (Su)
Once per round, a random object within 20 feet of a ravid animates as though by the spell animate objects (caster level 20th). These objects defend the ravid to the best of their ability, but the ravid isn’t intelligent enough to employ elaborate tactics with them.

Flight (Su)
A ravid can cease or resume flight as a free action. A ravid that loses this ability falls and can perform only a single action (either a move action or an attack action) each round.

Feats
A ravid has the Multiattack feat even through it does not have the requisite three natural weapons.

/////

So here is the scenario, the Ravid is hidden in something akin to a false wall behind in the room, using “peep” holes to view the party. The room is also quite dark. Random objects begin animating once per round, and begin annoying the party (bumping into them, following them around, etc) and the party then fights them. Assuming they don’t notice the eyes in the painting and so on, assume that the party literally fight their way through dozens of Animated Objects before there is nothing left to animate literally. Because the fight was ongoing every round they didn’t have time to take 10 on Perception and they didn’t think to even make Perception tests, given they had their hands full at the time.

So they uncover the Ravid once all the objects are gone and they search the room - it has nowhere left to hide once the secret wall panel is discovered, and whatever reason they don’t see the funny side of it’s prank and kill it. They only earn a CR 5 since the creature was using its innate ability and is factored into its challenge rating.

The players understandably are very upset that they wasted resources fighting all manner of Animated Objects and resources and get no XP for these.

So do you A) give no experience and have upset players, B) give some experience but not full value for the Animated Objects or do you C) give full experience but then have to deal with this expectation for getting XP every time a summoned monster pops up.

What option would you go with and why? Just curious

I still remember the “Boneyard” from the Libra Morris in 3.5, gave my players nightmares lol

Boneyard

Thousands of bones fly together, forming an immense serpentine conglomeration. Although the bones comprising its form bear little resemblance to ordinary anatomy, it does have a head formed from the skull of an immense beast.

Boneyards, known as bone weirds or bonetakers by some, are immense aggregate undead that form from mass graves and charnel sites. Despite their monstrous appearance, they possess genius-level intellects, a result of all of the damned souls rattling around in their forms. Fragments of the personalities and knowledge of the creatures incorporated into a boneyard surface in the roiling mass of its psyche, and they speak with dozens of voices at once, skulls studded throughout their bodies contributing to conversation. Due to their obscure knowledge of persons long dead and built into their bodies, boneyards are sometimes sought out as oracles or sages. Dealing with a boneyard is fraught with peril—the creatures rarely accept any payment less than a mortal life to consume and add its bones to theirs.

A boneyard is about forty feet long and weighs twenty tons. A boneyard can be created by a create undead spell at caster level 20th. To do so requires the skeletons of at least one hundred creatures.

Boneyard CR 14
XP 38,400
CE Huge undead
Init +6; Senses darkvision 60 ft., Perception +31, tremorsense 60 ft.
Defense
AC 29, touch 11, flat-footed 26 (-2 size, +2 Dex, +18 natural, +1 dodge)
hp 195 (23d8+92); fast healing 10
Fort +11, Ref +13, Will +18
DR 10/-; SR 25
Immune cold, electricity, undead traits
Offense
Speed 30 ft., climb 30 ft., fly 60 ft. (perfect)
Melee bite +26 (4d6+15/19-20 plus grab and consume bone)
Space 15 ft.; Reach 15 ft.
Special Attacks utter consumption
Spell-like Abilities CL 14th, concentration +18
3/day—skeletal summons
Statistics
Str 31, Dex 15, Con -, Int 18, Wis 20, Cha 18
Base Atk +17; CMB +29 (+33 grapple); CMD 42
Feats Dodge, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Initiative, Mobility, Power Attack, Skill Focus (Stealth), Spring Attack, Vital Strike, Whirlwind Attack
Skills Acrobatics +25, Climb +22, Fly +29, Intimidate +30, Knowledge (history) +27, Knowledge (religion) +30, Perception +31, Sense Motive +31, Stealth +26
Languages Abyssal, Common, Terran
SQ freeze
Ecology
Environment any land and underground
Organization solitary
Treasure standard
Special Abilities
Consume Bone (Su) Any creature bitten by a boneyard must succeed a DC 25 Fortitude save or take 2d4 points of Strength, Dexterity and Constitution damage as its bones leech into the boneyard. A creature that successfully saves takes no ability damage, but is staggered by the pain for 1 round. Creatures without a skeletal structure are immune to this ability, but undead creatures with a skeleton are not. A boneyard heals 5 points of damage each time it uses this ability. The save DC is Charisma based.
Flight (Su) a boneyard’s flight is a supernatural ability.
Freeze (Ex) A boneyard can take 20 on Stealth checks by masquerading as a pile of bones.
Skeletal Summons (Sp) This spell-like ability functions as summon nature’s ally VII, with the following exceptions. Creatures summoned gain DR 5/bludgeoning, immunity to cold and electricity, and undead traits. A boneyard cannot use this ability to summon creatures without a skeleton, such as giant squid or elementals. This is the equivalent of a 7th level spell.
Utter Consumption (Su) A creature pinned by a boneyard must succeed a DC 25 Fortitude save every turn or be instantly killed as all of its bones are pulled out of its body. A boneyard that successfully consumes a living creature gains the benefits of an inflict critical wounds spell (CL 14th). Creatures killed by this ability cannot be raised from the dead, although resurrection and similar powerful magic will function.

Sure, Mystic Wanderer at first level let’s you get CHA as a sacred bonus to AC provided you meet the prequisites. 3.5’s Battle Dancer also grants CHA as a dodge bonus to AC at first level.

A Nymph, Battledancer, Mystic Wanderer for example would add CHA to AC three times, Sacred, Dodge and Deflection.

Here's how I would have handled this:

"You can do this course of action, but if you do so your character basically becomes an NPC. Such actions will anger Orcus to the point of hunting you down until death. There will be no escape, your character will eventually be captured, tortured, killed, and the soul destroyed for such actions. As this will quickly take you in a rapidly different direction from the party we wont spend party time on it. I can write out a fully detailed chain of events if you so like, but ultimately this character will cease to be if you continue on this course."

Trust me we had these conversations, but he isn’t the type other player who would learn a lesson doing it that way.

He single handedly caused the party to abandon him. We didn’t get to actually see what happened with Orcus and his character because he quit.

Funnily enough not over this, but because he found what he thought was a game breaking exploit (see “Catch Free Efreeti Wishes?” thread) relying on a high UMD, scrolls of Planar Binding and Greater Planar Binding to summon a Contract Devil and an Efreeti.

He would offer absolutely nothing as compensation to either, “beating them down” with his high charisma and circlet of persuasion. He wanted the Contract Devil to create the mother of all legally binding contracts to stop the Efreeti from coming up with ANY attempts to twist the three wishes he would want.

He disagreed that they would try and screw him over (they would be mad at what he tried to do and was doing to them), that they would want revenge afterward or that Devils or Efreeti wouldn’t come knocking his door down along with Orcus’ minions, etc.

We didn’t even get to resolve that, for the price of 4500 gold he felt he had a legitimate way to get catch free wishes. This was going to be how he thought he would get out of it, eventsully of course as he wanted to use the wishes to get free powerful items and so on first.

He was going to use this method constantly to reach level 20, get +5 inherent bonuses to all stats, to grant his Vampire Cohort immunity to sunlight, to get himself a special Portable
Hole only he could access, to get himself a Mummified Griffin mount that was loyal to him alone, and grant other items and so on. Once all that was done he would wish up some way out of the situation. He genuinely wanted to abuse the hell out of this loophole he felt he found. It was NEVER going to fly, all Wishes would be tainted in some way I said th Contract Devil isn’t flawless, plus he’s mad, so there’s bound to be gaps here and there not to mention the Efreeti have done this dance before for ages, people have tried to cheat them again and again, and there is consequences.

Side question: wait he disses Bards and..., Plays a Bard?

Logic? Even if his main class is Cleric, what kind of screwy round about logic is that?

He disses the “generic” bard, the minstrel variety who buffs his allies and such. His bard was the Courtier archetype, basically focused on social skills. It was just a 2 level dip (to get the class skills, bard spells and so on), the rest all went on Cleric.

The player knew fine well Orcus could not directly do anything in Sigil, but a huge element to the sheer gravity of what they did is that In Sigil, all the Evil God's are housed in one temple in Sigil, Good God's in another, all kept in check by the Lady Of Pain.

He did it because the other God's (and enemies of Orcus) would SEE what he did, and Orcus isnt the kind of God would stand aside and allow a slight of this magnitude by what is essentially one of his highest level Clerics (Lv 12 Cleric / Lv 2 Bard) who for all intensive purposes wanted to get revenge in the most public of forums.

Needless to say, I warned him multiple times over but his answers never changed. He literally quoted Orcus as only being equipped with his +6 Mace and quoted his statistics as he believed them to be, saying not now but down the road he was certain somehow he could dethrone him and take his spot. All of this done infront of the faithful of the Diety who were all shaken by what happened. He used that shock to escape rapidly after his adamantine sword took the head off the statue, even though the mob chased him he had already planned a contrived escape via Invisibility and Expeditious Retreat, as well as literally paying some poor schmuck to dress up like him and loiter nearby who was the first target they went after.

It was purely the discussion of what Orcus COULD do, that set him off. He wasn't some pleb to the God, he was someone of significance, furthermore he showed Orcus up infront of his enemies and other evil Dieties and lost Orcus face, essentially made him look like a laughing stock (his whole point).

He believed only CR appropiate "agents" should come after him, and while I stressed this may be the case to start with, the sheer gravitas of what he did merited a more harsher response and he could be very well facing hit squads of Demons or Undead tooled specifically to his demise or to bring him in, make an example of him so this kind of behaviour was never repeated.

His meglomania knew no bounds - he planned to aim for Lichdom down the road or Vampirism if that failed once he gained more levels and he already had a Vampire Cohort (who was pretty weak but a Vampire all the same) who he planned to use to create more thralls ontop of his extensive Leadership following.

But this is NOT an isolated behaviour of this player, there was instances in the past where he frequently acted without thinking it through and bemoaned the fallout of said consequences. Here's a few examples.

- NPC quest giver asks the party to save their mother who is cursed into an undead state. The players managed to have the curse lifted but a side effect of the curse was she aged horribly. The character felt "she was going to Hell anyway" because she killed people as an undead and offered to "save her" by turning her undead again. When the NPC quest giver was understandably upset by this offer he acted like it was the most confusing response ever and wondered why the party was groaning and shaking their heads. Some good Diplomacy on the Party Leaders part managed to massage the situation into something salvageable.
- He went into a small town and boasted about "summoning a few Succubi and opening a brothel" openly and loudly, "I can get all their coin and souls, it's a brilliant idea" he also said loudly. News reached the towns mayor who contacted the Party Leader, who was deeply concerned by his characters claim. He didn't even deny it when confronted, he wanted to kill the Mayor for "causing him trouble" with the party. It took alot for the party to fix his mess there again.
- The party were fighting a rather powerful etheral undead, a variant of a Banshee and whole two party members were in really bad shape in the fight he literally tried to stop the party fighting it because "he wanted it". He planned to control it somehow he said and didn't want them killing it. His actions nearly caused two party member deaths as people had to fight around him and he made their lives difficult. He bemoaned constantly at the loss of his "pet" he wanted.
- He was obsessed with Undead, so much so he advertised quite openly that he wanted to bring back another party members dead love (which was part of his back story)....as a Mummy. "If he loved her he would accept her for what she is" he argued. I explained that would not go down well and the player whose love was to be brought back as his horrid undead mess was supposed to be grateful for the suggestion. They were not. The player constantly talked about how "ungrateful" They were and repeatedly preached how Undead are better than being living any day of the week in his opinion.

Those are just some examples. We have been more than tolerant and understanding of him and it's because he's a friend we put up with it. But he wrote himself out of the game arguing about a "loophole" he found (mentioned in another thread) that he found to get catch free wishes from an Efreeti for 4.5 thousand gold using a Contract Devil he would.bind to draft a contract to protect him from any possible twisting of the wishes, which was never going to fly. He quit for good this time because he wasn't getting his way to exploit that particular loophole (It's all explained on that other thread)

Funnily enough, the actual “Beblith” encounter that started this whole betrayal of his god sheds a little light on what happened further.

When the party was against the clock, the Villain got on their heels. Their identity wasn’t known to the Villain and they wanted to keep it that way.

Orcus being the demon lord he is hedged his bets. He coincidentally was contacted by said Villain and petitioned for aid to stop the party, which he obliged.

Demons fight among their own kind after all, and Orcus also thought this would be a good test of his followers faith (as someone said it’s VERY rare to see a high level cleric of Orcus around).

When confronted by the Beblith the party fought it without hesitation but he ran and hid while they did all the work. He was soooooo put off that his God would send a demon to potentially kill him, that’s what spurred the reaction.

I explained it to him out of character that it was a test of faith and he failed. He didn’t care; he protested that no good diety would ever send an angel or azata to fight them “just because”. I pointed out the ridiculousness of that, reminding him of who he worships. That’s more the behaviour of an evil god than a good one.

It was at that point he started saying out of character he was going to kill Orcus, felt he could pull it off and get a rival god to his (Demogorgon) to take him on board despite the fact I told him he would be VERY closely watched by said diety to make sure he doesn’t betray them too. IF he got that far that is.

Luckily for the group he wrote himself out of the campaign over the wish situation mentioned on another thread, THAT was the straw that broke the camels back but he wouldn’t stop going on about this “injustice” to his character because CR appropriate encounters weren’t the response he should be getting here because of the adventure module we were running should limit the maximum CR of anything they fight, that’s what he believed. That some cosmic force prevents powerful dragons from burning little villages and so forth lol

So, lemme get this straight: The player wants his character to use planar binding to compel a contract devil to produce a binding contract between his player and an efreeti (also under planar binding) and expects there to be no loopholes in said contract? I sincerely hope the PC has invested heavily in profession (barrister).

In other words: "Please proceed, tiefling."

LOL...Thank you. He was trying to make me sound crazy saying only I had this opinion of the situation. He genuinely believes he has found THE mother of all loopholes.

@ID-TheDemonOfElru

so instead of deciding on consequences, you or the GM in question, decided to talk with player about what kind of consequences the character should receive? That's just bad approach because the game is turning into out-of-game philosophical debate and potential fight.

My personal opinion of deities? They wouldn't care that much for a single desecration. It might warrant a small curse with somewhat harder Will Save to resist, but nothing major as CR 10+ foes. If the person is however massively ruining it's plans, heavily desecrating shrines and rampaging on it's faith, the deity might intervene then. Even then, if deity intervenes, it does so in subtle ways.

If you want true consequences for player, just say to him that even low CR foes can be deadly. A CR 1/3 goblin, has for example naturally high stealth score. He simply has to sneak upon person while asleep and coup-de-grace him. The NPCs always play dirty.

Adam

In Sigil as others have pointed out, this player specifically chose Sigil because Orcus couldn’t react directly to what he did. He planned the desecration at the Temple there where ALL the evil deities are enshrined in the Temple District (which is coincidentally across the plaza from a similar temple dedicated to Good dieties, both are kept in check by the diety like Lady of Pain).

The reason for his choice was that he felt Orcus couldn’t act directly and that he knew he would be cut off for it, but he wanted all the other Evil dieties enshrined there to witness what he did, especially those who are enemies to Orcus (such as Demogorgon whose long standing feud with Orcus over the title “Prince Of Demons” is legendary) who he had already made inroads to petition to be taken onboard.

The way the Temple is designed there are shrines to every evil god almost imaginable there, and an act such as this was done to make it public due to the unique opportunity to have Orcus’ enemies witness the event.

He knew he was going to be chased by the congregation and priests and planned accordingly to escape. He was successful in that regard.

Before all of this happened trust me I thoroughly debated the possible consequences of this action, but his megalomania knew no bounds. “Orcus is armed only with a +6 Mace!” he would say, reckoning in a bunch of more levels he would have a genuine chance to defeat him. He also basically demanded that Orcus was too busy to send more than “a few grunts” his way to deal with him. I explained that may very well be how this starts out, but he showed Orcus up to the entire evil pantheon for this reason.

Naturally with so many other divine beings and demon lords and arch devils watching Orcus cannot let this transgression slide lightly, an example needs to be made of the offender so that others don’t get the same idea.

Problem is he believed the party should be “on the hook” with them, when they were already being chased by the Villain in my campaign and their forces as it is. They didn’t appreciate nor want an extra enemy.

I also pointed out that his act to desecrate Orcus’ statue wasn’t done to honour his new chosen patron, it was petty revenge for the Beblith encounter many levels before. His new patron would be suspect of his loyalty and his motives, and rightly so. I told him he would be watched closely for possible treachery by his new patron, but the player was hardly so valuable that his new God would directly devote significant resources to his aid. More or less they would “cushion” the blow to some extent but he would have to find a way to fix this mess he made or find a way out of it.

He didn’t like that idea. Not one bit. I never planned to send a demon death squadron of high CR opponents but they wouldn’t be jokes either. As a Lv 14 threat himself the player merited a significant response, he was hardly a grunt beneath notice. At that level you are basically a hero or well known villain.

What compounded this was a discussion the players had deciding he brought this on himself and they vowed to stay out of it if Orcus sent demons (bearing his mark or symbol basically) or assassins came, they might even consider tieing the character up and handing them over to Orcus themselves.

Keep in mind he’s the ONLY evil player in a party of Good, he demanded from Lv 1 to be Chaotic Evil from the start and as good friends we decided to let him do it provided he remember that fact and play accordingly.

What’s worse about this all is that he literally believed he was untouchable - or should be - he didn’t agree that at any point of the campaign, NOT just this instance he should never have the possibility or threat of a high level CR encounter out of his range because a “good DM wouldn’t do that”.

When I explained he’s basically asking me to say that theoretically, if he was before some Ruler and a squad of highly trained guards and whatever other backup they had, that the fight should be “CR appropriate”, meaning that if he was Lv 1 the Ruler and all his guards would be no higher than Level 1 to 3 basically.

That as I pointed out is NOT how the game works. He got the idea in his head if you are doing a “module for level 12-14 players” then the maximum CR threat you could ever hope to encounter, regardless of what you did, is set by that. That it doesn’t matter if some massively powerful NPC (lets take Baba Yaga from Reign Of Winter for instance here) existed there who he might cross, they should get a massive nerf to give him a chance to fight them.

That as others have pointed out, isn’t how the world works. Sure if you angered Nualia (in Rise or The Runelords) her options to sent out a revenge hit on the player is limited by her goblins nd resources on hand. Orcus doesn’t fit that bill, he has literally countless armies of demons and undead, he could send as much or as little as he chooses, he doesn’t have to use “CR appropriate” demons or undead to attack some little town in the middle of nowhere if that’s what he wanted to do.

Again, the player disagreed. He genuinely has no concept How this CR system really works.

He’s out of our group anyway and boy, everyone played their first session without him and it was a smashing success. Party cohesion, fun had by all, no anxiety or stress over what might set him off this time, etc.

At least he never got to actually attempt it, I know if he did and it went pear shaped (So many things in this situation could have from saves made and so on) that it would have turned out bad for him in the end regardless, just how bad would have remained to be seen.

JDLPF wrote:

If you're setting up a serious wish machine, you need either a 6th level Cleric Fobiddance spell or an 8th level Wizard Dimensional Lock spell cast on the area of the summoning after you call the wish granting creature to the summoning circle. You can't prep this beforehand as it would block you calling the creature in the first place.

Then, you need to ensure the creature doesn't escape afterwards. The best way is of course to kill the creature after it's granted you a wish but before it can return to its own plane of existence.

Finally, you've gained your wishes and destroyed the creature you called to prevent retribution, but there's nothing saying that a vengeful outsider of an inappropriately high CR doesn't show up soon afterwards, demanding an explanation of why your power-gaming munchkin murdered his subordinate.

Remember, in the nuclear arms race of power-gaming, the GM always wins.

Here's your mistake. You want Flesh to Stone or Trap the Soul. Death is the easiest condition to fix so you need a better one. I mean, nothing stops divinations in the end (some way to permanent mindblank? Probably not worth it cost-wise) but you can make it more difficult than just resurrecting the dead guy and asking them what happened.

But as others have said, it's a terrible idea in so many ways. They don't have dimensional anchor so there's no reason the target stays. They also need Magic Circle, I think. Their chance of success is likely terrible. The saves, the SR check, honestly the UMD check is suspect too (it's a DC 35 and he can't take 10). And relying on the Charisma check? The Efreeti has 15 (probably around 40/60 without some exceptional bonus) but the Devil has 22 (at most 50/50 without some huge bonus, unlikely for a Bard/Cleric).

I know this is resolved (given your other post) but I'm honestly curious what their numbers actually were for Charisma just to see how much they would have to end up spending on this before it actually worked.

His character around the time this occurred (Lv 14) had Charisma (base 20, + 3 from level increases per 4 levels, +6 enhancement, +2 inherent (from Tome)) and wore a Circlet Of Persuasion which he argued "adds +3 to Charisma checks" (effectively adding another 6 Charisma numerically) so he was sitting around 31 (but with the circlet the bonus in this test was +14) by the time he planned to do this.

He also had 14 ranks in UMD which is CHA based and a class skill so he was +27 (+6 for Skill Focus and 10 ranks) so +33, there to the roll (I argued the Circlet wouldn't count for purposes such as this type of test). He boasted he only needed 2 or better to pass.

You see one facet of why Orcus would deal with someone who openly and brazenly desecrated one of his temples like this, is that as a demon Orcus would not let some pleb publicly sleight him infront of rivals and enemy dieties, especially where he did it.

That's also why he did it, because he wanted his "potential patrons" to witness his deed and offer him some kind of protection from Orcus

I was never going to send anything insane after him, but it would start reasonable and increase exponentially until he was captured and taken to Orcus to be made an example of personally. Eventually. Key to all of it. He might find a way to fix things down the road with Orcus or escape his fate in other ways but he felt he should only ever, period be facing things based on the adventure level//CR at hand as the maximum possible threat.

My counter was that Orcus could send almost anything he wanted, he isn't bound by some.adventure CR limit.

It's like a 1st level character trying to Regicide some Ruler and expect only CR 1-3 opponents face them, that absolutely nothing stronger could be there. That's his point. That somehow those restrictions of the adventure apply to whatever retaliation could occur.

Toss this player out on his ear, after giving him an earful first.

More generally, there is definitely a danger in going too far with consequences. I'm reminded of the old Baldur's Gate game and how if you picked opened a chest in someone's house a hit squad of city guards would teleport to your location and kill you. That's going too far with consequence.

To play the stupid whiny entitled brat's devil's advocate, the brat has a partial point - as a DM it is your job to throw challenges at PCs that they have a chance of overcoming or at least avoiding. It's the easiest thing in the world for a DM to kill PCs. Conversely, it's not your job to ensure they can never fail or die - I'm a big believer in the idea that success is only meaningful if you can fail (though not every situation the PCs encounter need to be skin-of-your-teeth difficulty - some can be cakewalks). If PCs make really stupid decisions, they may find they have bitten off more than they can chew.

In the case of defiling the temple of his god, is this blasphemy really so vile that Orcus will take a personal interest and send ridiculously high-powered killers after him? The brat immediately losing his clerical powers is a given, but I'm not sure I'd rule that a minor piece of blasphemy would result in a marilith popping up. Orcus has more important things to worry about than a little twerp like Brat. Let other Orcus worshippers know he's an apostate and bringing him to justice is desirable, and that should make things interesting. Orcus is also a demon lord of the undead, so fiends might not be the go to servants. There should be plenty of undead that might want to target him first, or go out of their way to kill him.
Orcus is not an idiot, however, and won't send things that he knows have no chance of killing Brat. And if Brat really wants CR appropriate challenges, oblige him with the ones that are badly under CR'd. Like the...

We responded to this in the thread above, look at Princess of Canadas response above in this thread she is a player in my group who can vouch for all of this. Plus there's much more context to everything above.

He literally believed he could take Orcus in a bunch more levels since he was "armed only with a +6 Mace", and that he was a "stupid, clumsy demon"

ID-TheDemonOfElru wrote:

Compounding this was the other players who all heard about what his character had done (he boasted about it), they decided should a death squad show up they would literally have the character handed over OR they would stand aside and let the demons have him. They didn’t want to be added to Orcus’ hitlist.

This is the most telling part of your story. This tells me that it doesn't matter whether your punishment is too severe. His own party has turned on him over this. That means he sucks. Or maybe he doesn't suck, but everyone else does. Same difference, though.

ID-TheDemonOfElru wrote:

CE Teifling Bard/Cleric

Maybe they all suck. Are all the PCs like this? Is this just an evil campaign where everyone is turning on each other?

ID-TheDemonOfElru wrote:

wander into a major temple to Orcus

Who would build a temple to Orcus? Whether people are good or evil, everyone pretends to be good. Orcus worship is the kind of thing a wealthy businessman does in secret. In a special compartment in his desk, he has a spent Monkeypaw that he prays to every night for more wishes, making human sacrifices in the hopes of re-animating it. He claims to the accountant that he has contracted out the office nighttime custodial services, but his nighttime custodial staff are all zombies he animated himself, and he's been pocketing the money.

A Temple of Orcus would something the Romans would accuse the Carthegineans of running, or maybe the Hebrews would accuse the Canaanites of running, or the Czars would accuse the Jews of running, stuff that is almost never true (AFAIK, that really was true about what the Spanish said about the Aztecs.). They just say that kind of stuff about whomever they want you to go to war with. "They drink blood and sacrifice babies to Baal or Moloch, or whomever." That's what they all say.

A real temple of an evil god would be a place that pretends to be the temple of a good god that attracts worshipers in order seduce...

I explained it all above Scott, the party were all Good aligned characters but he insisted on being CE alignment. They worked well together, he worked well on his own, pretended to be cohesive but was anything but. Every opportunity to cause a fight in the party and he took it - and everything directed at his character became personal for him in real life.

He planned on betraying his God over a fight with a Beblith sent by his God against the party and him both in a particular adventure. He didn't like that one bit. To him.Lrcus "got personal" So he made plans to defect to another Demon Diety to get his spells and was choosing between various enemies of Orcus in that regard.

We built the Planescapes D&D campaign into our game and he went to Sigil the City Of Doors (an official place and location in many older settings that's popular with my players since 2nd Edition) and there went to the major temple dedicated to a plethora of evil dieties of all alignments (located right across the street from a similar temple dedicated to Good dieties but both are kept in check by the Diety like Lady Of Pain who runs Sigil). He wanted to make a statement about how much he hated Orcus from that point on and planned out an elaborate escape after defiling his statue.

He had a massive complex, felt invulnerable, didn't like consequences or critiques of his actions or choice of words in our out of character.

So it's all him Scott, if you read the whole thread you would see that.

And to add to what my player has said he’s been kicked out of several gaming groups before for this same sort of behaviour I might add.

We tried to accommodate him every which way..

Here are some quotes and demands he's made to show the issues.

"If I can't play CE I ain't playing!"
(Someone tells her not to do something and does it anyway) "Its what a CE person would do!"
"She's MY character and nobody is allowed to touch her"
"I want to be a Demon Lord of the Abyss, I'm gonna usurp Orcus and take his throne"
"Bards are joke characters, they are the spare wheel in any party, their abilities are a joke"
"Druids are filthy mud covered leaf wearing recluses who don't bathe"
"Orcus is only armed with a +6 Mace, nothing else. I can take him when I'm high enough level, I've got it all planned out"
"I didnt need help with the Beblith; I never asked you to get indolved. I would have just kept my distance and sniped it constantly while summon monsters kept it busy"
(Frees NPC quest givers mother from undead state/curse, offers to immediately make them undead again because they're gonna die of old age he reckons) "I'll make her undead, she can live forever that way. She's going to hell anyway I just want her soul, let's make a deal!" (Wonders why quest giver is mad at this suggestion, doesn't see the irony of what they just did and what she's now offering to do)
"SHE'S MINE" (in relation to having a NPC cohort Vampire make a thrall Nymph they couldn't make because Dark Elves can't turn Nymphs into Vampires, as Create Spawn specifically states they have to be the same "type" to be turned. Gets mad and decides to quit because he can't have it, throws epic tantrum)

And much much more.

The toxicity made for hard games, people didn't enjoy themselves because of his playstyle.

CrystalSeas wrote:

ID-TheDemonOfElru wrote:

he quits often however and attempts to return at a later date. He likes to argue about such things as these for days.

How does either of these behaviors make game night more fun for you or for the other players?

I'd say he's quit once too often and not let him back for several years. He gets another audition once he's spent a few years growing up

Oh it’s the final time don’t worry. The consensus is we don’t want that negativity in the game anymore. The game is for fun but for him it’s all personal.

What put the final nail in the coffin was two things he said and did at this time.

1) he was so obsessed with his character he literally got a tattoo of her, not a little one either. He liked to boast about it.
2) he wanted to commission someone to draw his character but decided he can’t, when asked why he said he was “worried they would fall in love with his character” and he would end up violently assaulting them or worse. No rational thinking was able to get through to him when we tried to explain how ridiculous this was. But he was serious. Deadly serious.

So yeah, we had enough of it for the final time and this just put the nails in the coffin.

ID-TheDemonOfElru wrote:

he quits often however and attempts to return at a later date. He likes to argue about such things as these for days.

How does either of these behaviors make game night more fun for you or for the other players?

I'd say he's quit once too often and not let him back for several years. He gets another audition once he's spent a few years growing up

Oh it’s the final time don’t worry. The consensus is we don’t want that negativity in the game anymore. The game is for fun but for him it’s all personal.

A "level x adventure" only guarantees level-appropriate opponents if the players stay reasonably within the bounds of the adventure.

Like if there's a mention of a dragon in a low level part of an adventure path, because that dragon is going to show up later when the PCs are high enough level to fight it, and the party decides at level 3 that they're going to go fight the dragon... they should get eaten. If level 8 pcs who are pirates in the shackles say "let's go assassinate Thrune and establish a Chellish democracy" that's almost certainly not going to go well for them.

If you meet the king, a goddess, or someone who wields a lot more power than you do, in a scene where you're getting a briefing or are being rewarded for your heroic deeds, an impromptu improvised regicide or "let's mouth off to a literal divine being" isn't going to go well for you.

Part of making the game world feel real, I believe, is ensuring that there are both people more and less important/powerful than the PCs and the former group only gets really small at very high levels and is never empty. One thing I detest in a cooperative tabletop game is the "no consequences mayhem" kind of gameplay you get in some video games. That sort of thing has no place at my table. If you do something to make someone mad, they will be mad, and if they're more powerful than you- that's a problem for you. If they're less powerful than you, they might not do anything but they may well hold a grudge and if you run into them in 4 levels, they might be in a position to make your life more difficult.

But for future reference it's best to just not allow CE characters (or players for that matter.)

Oh I wholly agree.

Same player before this incident got himself in hot water once already earlier in the campaign. He has a really really negative opinion about Bards, thinks they are a joke class, “they’re the fifth party member in a party of four” which to him means they are like a spare wheel.

So he happened to run into a particularly high level Bard who was also a prominent figure in this town in the game, who absolutely annhiliated his reputation in town and made him the laughing stock, even vendors and merchants didn’t want to do business with them. He couldn’t figure out why he was a social pariah for a long time.

He also had a horrible tendency to misuse the Diplomacy skill. He would want to roll Diplomacy off the bat meeting NPCs and then would insult or anger the NPC’s and think he can just roll it again to bump it back up. I explained that’s now how it works, it’s for initial meetings to set attitudes and then for requesting help or aid, you don’t get to readjust the attitude for several hours (or more depending on the situation as the skill explains).

I thought you said in the other thread the player was quitting?

He did, he quits often however and attempts to return at a later date. He likes to argue about such things as these for days.

Well you are entitled to your opinions of course on the matter.

Nowhere does it say that spells DONT have a visual effect, and I specified spells like Alter Self, Invisibility and so on doesn’t cause you to glow and so on after it’s cast.

The skill check under Knowledge Aracana is open to interpretation of what it means.

The RAW under Knowledge Arcana states thusly.

Table: Knowledge Skill DC’s

Identify a spell effect that is in place Arcana 20 + spell level

This doesn’t require the use of Detect Magic to find the spell first, merely to be aware of it, that means you can see it, hear it, etc.

-You can identify any ongoing spell effect (with exceptions like Invisibility and other effects you cannot see. But there is nothing here to say you cannot roll against someone who has Protection VS Evil cast on them or Bull Strength for example. If you didn’t see it getting cast according to this skill check you are entitled to the roll as per the rules as written.

The spells are seldom ever written in a way that describes it being cast, it’s just the facts compressed into its simplest game effects. It’s all down to interpretation and as such, looking at Knowledge Arcana anyone who walks in on active magic (with those noted exceptions such as Invisibility) would be able to tell. It’s like saying someone who has Mirror Image cast and you see the illusionary copies - but you didn’t see cast - wouldn’t in your interpretations be entitled to a roll here, when they very much can.

Spellcraft identifies spells AS they are being cast, Knowledge Arcana is for spells after the fact you never saw cast (with exceptions). If you can make a roll, you are able to observe it which means it has to have some kind of visual or audible stimuli to do so.

I should point out that in 3.5 Spellcraft was always able to identify spells active in an area of effect, and while I already pointed out that someone changed with Alter Self wouldn’t be a valid target since they aren’t glowing or anything, or someone who is invisible using Invisibility, etc.

In Pathfinder you need only look under Knowledge (Arcana) to identify a spell effect you didn’t see being cast. All they did was move the ability to another skill.

Task Knowledge Skill DC

Identify a spell effect that is in place Arcana 20 + spell level

So someone walking in on someone casting say “Magic Circle Vs Evil” after it had been cast, as an ongoing effect could make this roll. But they could not versus a Invisibility spell and so on.

My point still stands. The spells have visual elements that can be seen. Any Pathfinder artwork showing magic use shows very graphically in the artwork that magic has visual aspects during and after casting in many cases.

To answer some of the questions posed in the responses.

- His powers were instantly revoked, he had designs to go to one of Orcus’ rivals and pledge themselves to them and get his Cleric powers reinstated since Orcus inevitably would have many enemies.
- He desecrated the statue because in the latest adventure the group went up against a Beblith that bore a mark of Orcus. The Bard/Cleric, along with the party actively fought against forces that Orcus allied with and had sent this guardian to protect. The party attacked the Beblith and won, the Cleric/Bard felt slighted that his God would “oppose” him with a demon that when the fighting began actively tried to kill him.
- He wasn’t stripped of his powers, as demons fighting their own kind or even his own followers isn’t outside the realm of reason for a demon like Orcus. But he was so bothered by the incident he actively started plotting to desecrate the statue.
- I forewarned him about the results of his planned actions before he carried it out, but he went ahead with it anyway. “It’s what a chaotic evil character would do” he argued, while I explained its suicidal he went ahead with it anyway.

Hi there everyone,

I have a question I want to pose to the community (I’m sure it’s been asked many times before) about spells having “visual effects” when cast and spells that are active or ongoing.

Spellcraft allows a character to identify a spell being cast or to identify a spell they can see in effect before them, and this is where my question lies.

“Detect” spells in particular, produce a cone like “emination” that needs to be aimed at a particular area. To aim properly it needs to be seen, the edges and range to know you are casting it in the right spot. If someone saw someone with a “Detect” spell (Secret Doors, Undead, Evil, etc.) waving their hand (and moving this cone of magical energy) around they by the RAW are entitled to a Spellcraft roll, which implies it does have some sort of “visual” aspect that can be actively seen by anyone looking at it being used.

A spellcaster in my group argues this makes “Detect” spells useless if anyone can see them, arguing that spells (“Detect Thoughts” in particular) like this are pointless if anyone can see them as they are designed to be subtle.

“I would punch a mage in the face if they walked around shining a magical flashlight “Detect (whatever)” at me on the street” he says. He argues it makes the spells useless or pointless if they can be seen.

But due to the way Spellcraft works, it implies that a mage can identify magic that’s active in their line of sight, unlike someone subtly shapechanged via Alter Self, waving ones hands around directing a magical “Detect” spell should produce some kind of visual element in my opinion, not necessarily a flashlight perse but something that can be seen and thusly identified (otherwise there’s no way for the spellcaster to use Spellcraft if they can’t see what’s going on).

I want to know what people think. Please and thank you.

Hi there everyone,

So to elaborate on the topic title. Actions and consequences, specifically player actions and consequences upon the world around them, what’s appropriate and differing opinions on the matter, I wanted to canvass yourselves and pose to you a situation that in my opinion as a DM, merited a severe and near instantaneous response from a powerful entity.

So here is the “situation” that arose, my response to it and I’m curious what people would have done in similar circumstances - my player believes I am being “heavy handed” and that they would be vindicated by replies found on here, though I would hope to find that others in fact agree with me.

So the player in question, the same CE Teifling Bard/Cleric mentioned in another topic (Catch Free Efreeti Wishes?) had in this situation decided to wander into a major temple to Orcus (his diety) and decides to then and there, desecrate it by beheading the statue. Literally in front of his congregation and priests gathered there. He had an adamantine longsword to do the job and had the statues head off in a few rounds. He was chased by a bloodthirsty mob of followers and priests but had an escape plan to avoid that.

When I explained the sheer gravity of his choice to him, he felt Orcus should not be able to send anything more than “some low level plebs” at him, touting that since we were in the middle of an adventure for Lv 12 characters that Orcus be restricted in what CR of threats he could send against him.

I explained that this isn’t for instance, some local lord whose best champion and instrument of revenge is his CR 14 fighter or something to that effect. Orcus has a near limitless arsenal of undead and demons both, and he being a demon would not tolerate a sleight of this magnitude. I explained a Marilith or some other demon death squad should should up and murder him cold and dead and have his body strung up for all to see as a warning to others.

Compounding this was the other players who all heard about what his character had done (he boasted about it), they decided should a death squad show up they would literally have the character handed over OR they would stand aside and let the demons have him. They didn’t want to be added to Orcus’ hitlist.

He continued to protest that the best he should be dealing with is a steady influx of Dretches, Babau’s and other low CR demons or some undead, that it is my job as a “good DM” to ensure he doesn’t just get slaughtered.

I said again, this isn’t like annoying or attacking some local goblin tribe or some evil wizard of a certain level, both of which have limited tools and resources to “retaliate” with. Orcus is almost a diety in his own right, I even argued that I should have literally struck him down with divine wrath in Orcus’ temple then and there but I decided to make a better example out of him in game that would essentially became another warning of how one does not attack or insult their god in their own temples.

So to put this to bed, and end the continuing argument (my players agree with me on what they think Orcus would do) between players, I want to know what you think.

Hi there,

Wanted to seek the community’s advice on a rather divisive subject in our game that has reared its ugly head, pertaining to one players devised methods to “get around” the normal bad consequences that come with being granted wishes by an Efreeti.

So the situation is thus, the player happens to be playing a CE Tiefling Bard/Cleric with a rather high Use Magic Device. His “plan” is to get his hands on a Scroll Of Planar Binding and another of Greater Planar Binding, written by some LE spellcaster to summon both one Efreeti and one Contract Devil both. He figures this method would only cost him 4.5 thousand gold for three catch free wishes, thinking he doesn’t have to offer the outsiders anything to get them to agree and “beat them down” with charisma tests to make them comply.

Now assuming that saves are failed and so on, he is presented with two bound outsiders, his plan is to use the Contract Devil as a “lawyer” of sorts to draft a massive contract of conditions on said wishes to essentially in his opinion make them “catch free”.

I argued that the Efreeti has likely faced “legal” issues of this nature before, and the Baatezu’s best efforts will see at most, the most obvious and inevitable consequences being avoided but there WILL always be a catch, maybe just not an obvious one.

He wanted to use three wishes thusly - one to grant his cohort (a Dark Elf Vampire) the “Fey Creature” template so she could turn a Nymph and have another thrall that way, he also wanted to emulate the Rogue’s “Trapfinding” class feature via a magic item (to make him the official party Rogue), and lastly he wanted a “Portable Hole” for his Vampire Cohort to hide inside during the day.

When I explained all three wishes would have some kind of catch or consequence the player threw a huge fit. 4.5 thousand for 3 catch wishes (this was all hypothetical, he hadn’t actually tried this yet or made any rolls we discussed it OOC before he would attempt it) and he planned to abuse this mechanic again and again, to get +5 to every stat eventually and so on.

For the price of 2 x +1 weapons I said this was never going to fly, I want to know what others think.

I argued also that Efreeti have been around a loooooong time, they’ve seen every scheme there is to wriggle out of consequences of their wishes, the Baatezu can’t possibly cover every possible catch that could exist (they make great lawyers to be sure but hardly undefeatable). There’s also something to be said for the fact he was offering nothing in the way of compensation to either outsider and planned to make them do it for free with his very high social skills.

He is to give you some context, a power gamer in the truest sense of the word. Always looking for every loophole or exploit to get ahead of the party. He is also the only evil player in a party of good aligned characters, who (no Paladins thankfully in this equation) don’t particularly like him but he’s refrained from doing anything particularly evil in front of them to get bad attention.

So as a result of this “impasse” as he called it, saying I am not allowing him to get away with this he wants to quit and I have allowed him, the rest of the party isn’t sad to see him go.

I just want to know what other players and GM’s think.

Hi everyone, our group is canvassing for more players for our games. Currently we are invested in playing Pathfinder, Shadowrun 5th Edition, Call Of Cthulhu.

We game every other Saturday, average of 4-5 hours per session (usually starting 5pm eastern time). Primarily we use Skype but we will be transitioning to Roll20 at some point.

Our current game is Pathfinder, the Reign Of Winter campaign with some changes/alterations and other materials added to it. Backstories are encouraged and rewarded, character options are anything/everything is open but please be cogniscent of the party makeup (it's mostly Good aligned characters including one Paladin).

Race options are always open for discussion (such as monstrous or more powerful races) with some tweaking if that is desired. I also plan to incorporate Mythic content into the campaign.

The group is currently sitting around Level 6-8 range at the moment.

We have 2 very committed players and 1-2 more who play as often as they are able, but we are always on the look out for 1-2 more players who want to join us.

We also have other full campaigns which are also options, Strange Aeons, Curse Of The Crimson Throne, Iron Gods, Rise Of The Runelords also.

We also use an Overwatchesque "Play Of The Game" style feature where after every session players can vote other players actions 1st, 2nd or 3rd place except their own, and winners usually get a little bonus as an incentive for cinematic or dramatic moments that really give the session something memorable.

Princess Of Canada wrote:

Rhedyn wrote:

The pirate captain rescinding his reward after the evil pc made her offer is a dick move. It's the GM getting the players to harp on the player's play style. That was pretty terrible and shows you guys were pushing him out of the player group.

This was after you failed to deal with his antics in character. She should be dead.

Instead you worried about his out of character response and didn't give him a chance to act like an adult.

I have little doubt it would have all ended the same way (him quitting after not getting his way), but there was severe levels of immaturity from everyone.

He really should have left the group because you guys were being antagonistic to him at the end. You lost all moral highground and became a toxic group to that player.

I'm only giving him a pass his actions because you guys never handled it correctly. His character never suffered for her actions until the GM goaded the PCs to effectively murder her.

You all should feel shame for your actions.

Have you read anything ? I said we let him play the way he wanted but he was unwilling to accept consequences and he basically blew up for our characters not putting up with his s+*@ or calling him out on it.

So effectively we weren't allowed to do anything but praise or forgive his character for putting us in mortal danger on many occassions.

It lead to him fighting a lot with us out of character.

So if anyone was "harping" on players styles it was him.

That was part of the problem. You guys were immature.

You should have dealt with his character in character and let him misbehave.

Instead you guys murdered your established ally for a far lesser offense than all the other stuff she deserved death for.

You weren't forced to do anything. You weren't forced to forgive his character. You avoided conflict to the detriment of your campaign and then you punished him for cumulative actions based off one act that wasn't even bad.

You...

You are of course entitled to your opinion.

The fact of the matter is this player has through every game he's ever played been near identical as far as he can be (female (evil race or closest to) spellcaster) and through many previous groups has been allowed to do this for the longest time.

The group all agreed to try and help work things out with him but he would frequently say he understood why his characters actions were out of line then minutes later go and rescind it and do something awful that people were supposed to be happy with.

The fact is he didn't do ANY fact checking of the Pirate Captain, didn't even do the most fundamental of Gather Information rolls (yet again) and made an offer he would have taken himself. The party didn't suffer thanks to the Paladins great Diplomacy roll, but other instances the party didn't have ANY say in what he did.

He just played "chaotic stupid" or better yet "chaotic ignorant", this incident wasn't harsh by any means the Pirate Captain didn't punish him for it at all after he apologized. It was the party who put him on a platter for Orcus because they didn't want some God sending his minions after them in a fight they didn't ask for or need.

It wasn't helped this player genuinely believed he could take Orcus or any other God, he really believed he was untouchable with high saves, backup plans and 30+ AC. Any attempt to persuade him that his situation was a disastrous one was met with contempt, that's what ended his character not the Pirate or any other incident.

You can't deny angering a Greater God directly should have consequences, he defiled his temple in front of his worshippers before bailing. That's what got him nipped not the other incidents.

I value everyone's opinions, but as for setting this up as a trap I disagree.

The Reign Of Winter campaign (which I've personalized to some extent) had them all under Baba Yaga's Geas so that was the reason everyone was working together for that reason, compelled by her Mythic level magics.

It's been resolved, after failing to ever use Diplomacy as intended (or at all) he got the party to resolve the problem themselves. He was his own worst enemy in this.

I am not tolerating his "it's chaotic evil or nothing" arguements anymore, we will continue without him if he cannot change. He also has ZERO accountability for his actions, it's always some PC or NPC or GM's fault that this or that didn't go his way.

The party got its wish and got rid of the toxic element, now they can work together and not worry about the priest causing trouble for the group any further.

I have to clarify this place they're in is a tropical island where the sun is in the sky most of the day, being a vampire would suck (no pun intended) and had the player decided to do the most basic of Gather Information rolls (which they did not) they would find the islanders have had huge problems with undead and have NO love for them.

Again he didn't even do the basic rolls to find that out.

Luckily the party's Paladin had made a good rapport with the Pirate Captain (who's CN alignment) and is basically the governor of their own city, the Pirate is more than happy to rule her little kingdom. The player only had himself to blame for the mistake (12th instance of making assumptions about others).

The party Paladin luckily saved the groups skin with a good Diplomacy roll in the High 30's, this took the captain down to Indifferent towards them (they would have all suffered the same fate otherwise)

What's more, he genuinely believed he could take on a God (he personally went into a temple of Orcus and offended him before running off) and had NO remorse that Demons could be sent by Orcus which might attack the party too by just being around the character. He believed that Orcus should not be able to send anything he can't handle thinking adventures adhere to a certain CR range in encounters. I told him this didn't apply to Gods, who had a infinite pool of resources to pull from.

He refused to awknowledge his situation was bad and what danger he put the party in, so they turned on him and he was basically left to Orcus as a peace offering to get off their backs so they can continue their quest. Now he's done - I'm not going to let it bother us, we will enjoy the game without him if he cannot be adult about it and learn from his mistakes.

So to give everyone an update, I really appreciate the input.

I've stopped pulling my punches after trying to resolve this OOC and not really getting any headway.

Recent event, the group needed the help of a pirate captain and their ship to severely cut down some travel time to get from their location to where they need to go, in exchange the group had to take care of a little problem for the pirate captain. No problem, the group handled it - involved removing a curse from a friend of theirs that basically turned them into a loathesome undead. The group broke the curse and saved the person (best scenario) without the evil characters help. Everything was good so far, only catch was the transformation horribly aged the poor woman so she was alive but the curse had taken it's toll on her.

The group retired to the tavern for the evening, but the evil player character came to the pirate captain - offered to turn the old woman into a vampire and offered to summon a Contract Devil so the old woman could sell her soul while she was at it (he genuinely believed this to be a truly stellar idea without any drawbacks and he could profit from it), all without the rest of the party's knowledge.

Needless to say the pirate captain did not take the news well. They frogmarched him out the tavern and made it clear he ruined the transport for his friends. The rest of the party was livid with him, this allowed the situation to resolve itself on its own as the party lost their ever loving s**t with the player.

He was forced to grovel on his knees by them in an attempt to placate the pirate captain, who after a very high Diplomacy roll agreed, albeit the evil character is under the heel of the others now who have by now finally had enough.

The party has made it clear regardless of taking them along on the ship, they will finish the character off themselves (which happens next session) and as a collective we are not allowing him to create another evil character again if he chooses to keep playing. If he doesn't I have spoken to the players and gotten their Buy in to commit to a smaller game with less players should that happen.

The player naturally thinks the pirate's reaction was "overboard" (who wouldn't want to be a vampire? selling their soul when they seen undead is free stuff since they don't need it anyway, etc) and complained about her being heavy handed. I didn't budge on it, I explained the Pirate views the old woman as a mother figure and not everyone thinks becoming undead is a great idea - she's insulted that she even suggested doing that to her, if it wasn't for the fact the group saved her she would have obliterated her with her two Cannon Golems she had on standby.

Thanks for the input everyone, seems it's worked itself out.

It isn't just Pathfinder this applies to, we have tried Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, Dark Heresy, Shadowrun, Call Of Cthulhu.

Every character he makes is near identical, if they aren't slinging spells they are all selfish, rules lawyering power gaming types who look to break the system.

I've both ran and played games with him with other groups too, they opted for the "carrot on a stick" approach, as long as he had a carrot he behaved to some extent and that method still works here for a time - but he frequently gets the stick when he gets out of line, and since his recent power trip (his prestige class) and some strong items he's acquired he's gotten a head full of steam.

We played happily and still do play happily with smaller groups, he's a longtime friend of people in the group I'm in and they're all trying to handle him in different ways. The consensus is they want him to learn some lessons and grow otherwise he won't change on his own; that's the idea here.

We even tried playing an all evil campaign once and his character worked up the others even then (he was the only chaotic evil player) so that stopped abruptly.

It isn't that the game is more important to me than anything else, I just wondered if anyone had any good advice or alternatives besides the obvious (I've considered kicking him out but then nothing will change doing that, he's been kicked multiple times in other groups and he's the same). He's been playing for a long time since the days of AD&D 2nd Edition, he's deeply entrenched in what he likes and he can't deviate from that (we even bet him he couldn't play a Paladin at one point and he tried, only to make the Paladin turn evil eventually)

As for the suggestion of stripping the Paladins powers, she's attacked and hurt this character many times but she is constantly fighting with the priestess, she wants to kill her but knows doing so will upset the friendship because this person takes it too personally. She's made it clear once Baba Yaga is free she is going to kill her, it's become her mission at this point and she's not wavering on it.

If anyone else acted silly (such as the example of the Paladin player smashing a demon in the face mid negotiation) I would penalize them too and the party should be rightly annoyed as well, as perhaps they needed to negotiate for something important first before they fought.

The problem is the party does what they're supposed to do, but this one player well...he keeps doing the whole "chaotic stupid" thing (he thinks his decisions in character are all great or well thought out, he genuinely doesn't understand when people get upset at what he said and why)

I've been plaguing him now with his Geas from Baba Yaga after pulling some punches but he still thinks that's heavy handed (and "god like" he hates he doesn't get to roll to save against the consequences).

It's specifically because of that Geas that allowed the party to be as weird as it is, but he thinks other people should be punished too not just him. Problem is others disagree as they are working together it just so happens they frequently unite against him when he does stupid stuff like angering Orcus.

We have established some ground rules for characters in the group, he has made it very clear it's chaotic evil priestess or nothing - as our group is so small if he doesn't play frequently one or two of the others back out too.

He can play Chaotic Evil but the crux is when he says "I'm just playing my character" the arguement works both ways too, when other players get mad in character they're doing what they should do too and it doesn't sit right with him, he takes it personal, etc.

He's been removed from groups before for his toxic behaviour (power gaming, rules lawyering and so on) and we are trying our best to educate/teach him how to work with a party and show how his character can cooperate within guidelines (Baba Yaga has basically compelled the party to work together to save her, which is how the unusual party dynamic was explained at the start).

For instance Orcus sent a Beblith at the party to get the Priestess and the Paladin defender her Ally as much as she annoyed her yet the Priestess just hid behind some summoned monsters unapologetic about her cowardice. The Paladin almost had their Armour ruined in that fight, and the Paladin player was annoyed at their cowardice (as was the group) but nobody took it personal. I've told this player they could easily do that and turn the tables on him, since he takes everything personal.

I know when I suggest he play non-evil he will literally walk away, which is unfortunate - the other players don't play nearly enough and when he pulls out they will probably lose interest with the group size reduced to 3.

Hi everyone, I have some scenarios to present that have come up with a problem player in our group - he believes he's getting the short end of the stick every time.

Campaign is Reign Of Winter, albeit I've modified it substantially and personalized it. The characters in the group could not be any more different from each other. Aasimar Paladin, Tiefling Priestess of Arazani (formerly Orcus) (this is the problem player), Halfling Witch and Half Elf Inquisitor. The group is heavily good except for the Tiefling player who regardless of any game has to play the most evil characters around (they will not play even neutral characters)

So...to give some background. The group works well together but the Tiefling persistently does the whole "I'm chaotic evil" bit and frequently opens their mouth without thinking, threatens NPC's or other player characters, puts their own preservation before others (frequently runs away in the first round of combat), charges for healing, makes magic items for the party members (who if they refuse them they get all pissed off, if they take them they "owe" them). Our group is fairly small and we are all great friends in real life, but where games are concerned we consistently butt heads.

I'm the DM in this game, and I've allowed the Tiefling to "mulligan" some of its more stupid decisions that impact the party but I've stopped pulling my punches after the 8th incident just now.

Without cataloging all the events individually I'll touch on the major (party conflict causing ones). In each and every instance the player takes the other players reactions personally and fights ensue.

Examples are...

1) Wanting to raise the Halfling characters dead wife as a rotting undead Mummy without consulting them. The party doesn't tolerate undead in the group but they felt this was a stellar idea - when the Halfling found out and the party by extension it caused a fight. (They believed the Halfling never loved his wife as he should "want her back no matter what" and was ungrateful after giving him a magic item earlier which was now being leveraged in the arguement)

2) His character has a murderous insane demon spawn daughter the party wanted no part of or even be around. They made a deal that she could come only if she's adequately controlled (Geas' and the like) so to not bring trouble down on the group. Everything was fine until the time came the daughter got the spells cast on her by an NPC, this became a "lobotomy" in their eyes, more fights ensued.

3) He cast a Charm spell on an important NPC Inquisitor who hates enslavement and compulsions with every fibre of their being. All in front of the other party members too and for no reason. The Inquisitor identified the source and confronted the Tiefling, locking her up. She was put on trial (heavy handed they believed) and released with strict conditions back to her party.

4) Numerous instances of opening their mouth without thinking, "involuntary outbursts" as they called it. Their character makes fun of NPCs and other individuals they meet which sours negotiations and diplomacy rolls and suchlike which complicates the party's efforts further.

5) Insulted Orcus (who they formerly worshipped) inside one of his temples and caused the party to be harassed by numerous demons. When the party found out why they were constantly being attacked this led to the Tiefling being near booted out of the group. They originally cut Orcus' statues head off its shoulders during this before I let them mulligan that part. They genuinely believed they could "handle" anything Orcus threw at them and his resources would be too thin to come after them full force. I explained that was a stupid assumption to make, he would dead sooner or later.

6) Again with the undead raising of family members. This time a very powerful NPCs elderly mother (I could turn her into a Vampire and she can live forever) as well as wanting to summon a Contract Devil to give the old woman a wish for her soul. She expected this to be taken well by the powerful NPC who the group needed to acquire a ship and safe passage from. She then threatened the NPC with alerting Orcus to her presence and having a demon horde descend on the city to kill everyone and her once she disagreed.

Now it's gotten to the point other party members literally want to kick her out of the group and despite trying to talk to the player out of character they feel everyone is overreacting to what they are doing "I'm just playing my character" is a common excuse. Other players have talked to them too and while we get along fine out of character it's always competition in charvter (he's a Power Gamer/Rules Lawyer/Diva kind of player who loves show value to get attention. If he can't play an evil demon loving CE priestess then he won't play at all and with our small group size we don't want to lose a player and a friend)

Does anyone have any other suggestions for how to deal with this player? Am I being too heavy handed by not pulling punches and having people not just shrug or laugh off his antics? (He believes he should have slapstick consequences like slaps upside the head and such but nothing more serious. Anyone who actually hurts his character he plots to murder and kill their loved ones).

Thanks

I totally agree that the RAW says the Rogue can disarm any device, a weak floor isn't really a trap though it's a hazard, a deadfall is a hazard, a stick set up in a rock pile that causes a deadfall is a trap (it may utilize a hazard but it's still a trap) so the Rogue gets to disarm it (or bypass it, etc as the rules allow).

Just with Disable Device a rogue can "hijack" a magical trap, through means unknown, and bypass or disable it, like they can with any mechanical trap. It's just one of their abilities much like a Clerics Channel Energy and so on.

I do agree there are instances where the Rogue can't disable a trap for one reason or another, where they can't physically access the trap in question. If the Rogue had to for example disable a trap on the other side of a locked door, but he knew it was there somehow he would have to somehow get inside the room or at least through the wall to get to the trap itself.