Scott Betts wrote:
So, not even bothering to read it, or to point out flaws in their arguments. Just throw a little mud, since they believe differently from you any evidence they quote must be wrong, and not worthy of review or consideration.
No, what is important is that you've neglected to refute anything, or to bring a substantial burden of actual proof in arguing for an abridgement of rights. Instead it's dismissing any proof, be it Switzerland, the studies of murder rates in European countries cited in that review, or anywhere that a position held dear *might* possibly be wrong.
I keep telling myself I have to stop posting on these forums. It's not worth the time or the effort. Have a good day everyone.
My "Red Dawn" fantasies are nothing of the sort, it would be a nightmare of a struggle. Nobody sane wants a civil war, it would be an ugly affair, as it has always been.
Oh yes, Afghanistan had plenty of "former government forces." The Afghan army fell apart the moment the soviet invasion happened. The central government infact requested soviet support to deal with the guerrillas inside of the country. Only when the Soviets believed that the central government was doing such a bad job, did they invade. Most of the regular afghan army stayed loyal initially. But hey, that's okay. No need to know any history. It wasn't the clan loyalties, or the poorly equipped religious fundamentalists that flooded into Afghanistan to fight the godless soviets.
And how exactly did the Vietnamese come to control half the country, and force the French withdrawal and American intervention? I'm sure a regular North Vietnamese army just appeared, fully equipped and ready to fight and well trained. Not to mention we'll just ignore the completely irregular Viet Cong. Mortars and Improvised Explosive Devices can be manufactured rather easily, that is why of course, guerrillas love to use them. IED's having the word "improvised" right in them.
EDIT: Here is the Free Syrian Army, a Guerrilla outfit, manufacturing their own Mortars and Shells in a small garage:
Scott Betts wrote:
Tell us about it.
I think you're the one arguing for an abridgement of rights. So you're going to have to bring some real evidence, and not just name some studies and provide an interpretation of them for us, and not give us access to these studies you are positing as proof for denial of rights.
For instance, it might do you good to actually read an entire scholarly article and not just quote the splashy byline that is on Brady webpage. For instance, actually reading say...the Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy:
Is a real good start.
Are you kidding me? "They are not paranoid with their militia?" What does that even mean? That somehow if a person owns a firearm they are paranoid somehow?
A few trained men with rusty AK's, and minimal supplies have and continue to play merry hell with the American military. This has happened since Vietnam. The Afghans forced the Soviet army to retreat with minimal supplies and weapons, often using WW1 era weapons versus an enemy who routinely employed advanced technology and chemical weapons.
The lack of appreciation and understanding for history is astonishing.
Reading this thread makes me think that government could press for any restriction of freedom after a "crisis" and people would just go along with it regardless of whatever facts, and historical precedent is brought as evidence.
It's depressing to see people so ready to throw away liberty at the illusion of "safety", let alone the reality of it.
The "rediculous" slippery slope argument. That is funny, because how have your legal and political options done so far on that front either? Just as ineffective. A popular revolution is not something that would happen at a moment's notice. Right now, such abridgments of rights are "selectively" applied to certain persons, but nobody can guarantee that it will remain that way. Force is not something to be used at the drop of a hat, but as an absolute last resort against a regime that has lost it's legitimacy and is acting abusively.
I'm not some camo wearing frothing at the mouth anti-governmental type. I'm worried about the direction of things over the last decade, the excessive concentration of power in the executive and lack of respect for the constitution's restrictions on such power.
It's not a "different" battle. It's the exact same thing. Where one man or woman's rights are ignored or abused, my own rights are diminished. Especially when it is done with hysteria, and quickly and without thought. For it is far too easy for such laws to have unintended consequences.
It's really hard to have a reasonable conversation when people don't even know the facts and make wild statements about the NRA and other people. NICS gets calls from Psychologists, Law Enforcement, Hospitals, all the time in ALL states. ANYBODY can call into NICS and present a case to deny a person the purchase of a firearm.
This frequently happens on an emergency basis. The person who then wishes to purchase a firearm must file an appeal, to get the NICS ban overturned and to purchase their firearm.
"In addition to local, state, tribal, and federal agencies voluntarily contributing information to the NICS Index, the NICS Section receives telephone calls from mental health institutions, psychiatrists, police departments, and family members requesting placement of individuals into the NICS Index. Frequently, these are emergency situations and require immediate attention. Any documentation justifying a valid entry into the NICS Index must be available to the originating agencies. "
From the FBI NICS page.
No, you are wrong. NICS is reported to when a person is adjudicated as mentally defective, or has been committed to a mental institution. Psychologists and Hospitals as well as other state agencies call into NICS all the time to report a person.
My first job was selling firearms, and more than once I've had NICS not give authorization to sell the person a weapon.
Paul Watson wrote:
And how is mental health related to guns? Are you suggesting that people with mental health issues shouldn't be armed? Wouldn't that be an infringement of the 2nd amendment akin to backgroudn checks? And wouldn't it further stigmatise those with mental health issues as being all dangerous lunatics when that's far from the truth?
That actually already exists, my friend. Many many states bar persons found to be some degree of mentally ill from firearm purchases. The exact wording depends on your state, but many are for a person who has been admitted to a mental health institution, willingly or unwillingly. However the detection and preventative mental health measures are awful.
Often, a person goes untreated for so long and self medicates with things like drugs or alcohol, which only makes the problem worse. So when it finally boils over it is much more likely to be a catastrophic event than something that can be treated and dealt with.
Paul Watson wrote:
No. My argument would be that we have a mental health system in this country that is downright abhorrent (One of my friends went through it) and the only reason he has anything like a normal life now is because his mother refused to give up on him for five years of therapy and meds and of course, his family was rich. He now lives as a normal, well-adjusted person while on his particular cocktail of medications.
He fears however, telling anybody about it because of the stigma associated with mental health.
Interesting. So people who own firearms are immediately part of some racist mob? That's fascinating. Please, tell me more.
Scott Betts wrote:
Oh yeah! Gosh darn those inconvenient facts getting in the way of my anti-gun arguments! We'll just ignore those, and anything else that complicates the issue. A nation with a strong gun culture of ownership, with that 'paranoid' militia concept that seems to be despised so much by Caineach.
And then we'll make a definitive statement with no sort of evidence to back it up, about those evil black folding stock barrel shroud assault banana clip weapons do evil evil things, and nothing bad would ever happen to anybody if we just gave a little more of our rights to the government to deal with this one *emergency*.
And then, for the next *emergency* well, then we'll have to have permanent detention without trial in a place like Guantanamo. And then maybe we'll have warrantless surveillance, or extrajudicial drone killings of US citizens without trial.
I mean, the government would never abuse the power it's been given, obviously. That's never happened before in human history, or say within the last ten years. Nope.
Then pray tell, where was the Militia supposed to get their arms and equipment? A militia is meant to muster with it's equipment and arms at a moment's notice to respond to threats, foreign and domestic. The whole reason of having a militia is to have a reserve of equipped men or fighting age that are not in the regular army. Militia units routinely provided their own equipment, even including more expensive items like horses in some cases.
The Militia in Switzerland has all members keep their weapons at home, for obvious reasons.
And of course, we all known that Switzerland which lets young men carry home fully automatic assault rifles, subsidizes the sale of ammunition to the civilian populace and sponsors gun clubs, the gun murder rate in Switzerland is off the charts! Bern is even worse than Chicago!
Oh wait...except, it isn't. Strange that. Or that the anti-gun paradise that was the Soviet Union with it's all powerful secret police had one of the highest murder rates ever seen, despite it's ban on evil black assault clip folding stock baby killing dum-dum rounds.
That is because both of those fears are not valid or reasonable.
Caineach, Tuvia Bielski would like to disagree.
For instance, there are plenty of light Monk weapons that the Monk is already proficient with that either have a bigger damage die, or have other abilities. Such as the Nunchaku, Siangham, etc.
It's just an odd design choice. It's like somebody thought that a monk being able to TWF with short swords would be OP, so they had to make a nerfed monk shortsword. But then made a bunch of other weapons that are just as good as a short sword.
It's not so much it not making sense to the actual weapon. But more than it occupies a niche that seems to serve no logical purpose that even more than that, requires the one class that might use it to spend a feat on it.
Oh, sure enough. My bad on that. Still...I don't understand the point of these weapons. The only thing still going for them over the bog standard dagger is the monk quality. And the monk would have to blow a feat on them just to be proficient with them.
While the OP was unnecessarily confrontational, they do sorta raise a good point. Why even bother making stats for this weapon and naming it when anybody with good sense would just use a dagger or a short sword and call it a "butterfly sword."
It is literally worse in almost every single way to a dagger. It costs 20gp to the dagger's 2gp, it does only slashing, while the dagger does piercing and slashing and can be thrown. The dagger is a simple weapon, and the butterfly sword martial.
The single thing it has is the monk quality, and something about being able to separate them as a free action. What is even the point of this thing? Does anybody even use them? If so, why?
Also: The Butterfly Sword isn't a light weapon. So you can't even TWF with something that seems to be implied to be used in pairs.
I've already addressed these questions with the Devs, and they are all in agreement: any natural attack provided from magic items (helm, ring, cloak, or whatever) would all gain the benefits of the amulet of mighty fists.
Really? I would greatly appreciate a link. Mostly because I am hoping this might shed light on the AOMF and bypassing DR with natural weapons, etc.
Steve Geddes wrote:
That is all it would take here too. My DM currently does not allow AOMF to overcome DR because there is no yes or no answer and the one dev comments that it does not. So I have to put my monks and more importantly natural weapon fighters on the shelf and go back to playing what PF wants me to play. A guy with high strength wielding a weapon in two hands with power attack.
STR Ranger wrote:
I'm glad. People who do guides are a big help to those of us who are optimizationaly challenged.
Magus is basically the ultimate TWF fighter, just in a different way. That build dipping White Haired Witch from Mathwei is very interesting for sure.
I'm a fan of the game of Football and last night hurt. It was a joke, an insult to the players that put their bodies on the line every single week. To put them at risk like that after the constant trumpeting about player safety to now have things like incompetent refs missing call after call after call when it comes to things like late hits.
Refs blatantly missed cheap shots in that Hawks/Greenbay game. Chop blocking was going on all over the field and in other games. It's an embarrassment
Even more of an embarrassment is the way the NFL pretends like we're too stupid to know what really happened on that play. That statement about "yeah it was pass interference, but other than that the call was a-okay" was a joke. We love the NFL but eventually, a breaking point will come.
If you put money on these games, it might of already come.
Darth Grall wrote:
It's all very, very silly.
Infinite time stop! Infinite shapechange! Infinite true strike! Infinite blink! Infinite everything!
I'm a bit curious on the issue of sunder etc, can't gauntlets be used by fighters and achieve the same effect (just not the increased dmg die) and they aren't disarmable, and you can sunder a necklace just like anything else right?
I believe so, yes.
Have you taken a look at the Book of River Nations? I am considering using that for the kingdom building part because I have heard the original AP rules are a bit of a mess.
In the end, my group stopped playing Jade Regent with this book. It wasn't this book's fault primarily, but my players wanted nothing to do with the Forest of Spirits. They wanted to charter a boat around the coast because they (rightly) realized the direct route to Minkai would be a battle. Or they wanted to go west and then charter a boat east across the sea to Minkai directly.
I had been putting in pretty heavy rails the whole time during this AP to try and keep the players on some sort of track and they were starting to cry foul and I was feeling terrible about doing it because it was pretty transparent and the players were coming up with great ideas and I had to keep shooting them down because the progress of events is so tight in JR, and their ideas were reasonable and understandable. (They also wanted to try and find support in other nations for a coup in Minkai.)
I tried to make what was going on clear at the beginning of the adventure, about the necessity of rails and this being a caravan, but after tromping across the ice they wanted nothing more to do with the AP's rails. The other problem was the importance of the NPC's which got harder and harder to stomach as they usually ended up being the ones who tried to keep things on the rails.
My advice is...even if you talk it out with your group beforehand, it is not enough. The rails are so tight here that unless your party is the type to be lead by the nose they will have real problems. Generally most will put up with it for awhile but the entirety of late book 2 to book 3 to book 4 is a choo-choo. Be absolutely sure of what you are getting into.
Saint Caleth wrote:
Wow, really? I'm not sure how I would respond to that. Probably just by packing up and leaving the table.
That is a much more concise and elegant way to say what I was struggling to. There is just too much grey area here, and it really needs just a quick FAQ answer. So I'd encourage anybody who has not already to hit that button!
I don't think anybody on the side saying not, least of all me, thinks that there are not reasons to say that it does bypass DR. I REALLY REALLY hope it does.
The problem is when it is said that people who question DR penetration have no leg to stand on here. There is plenty on both sides where a reasonable party could see that clarification is needed, if only in the way of a single word.
But what type of bonus to attack and damage? A magical weapon provides an enhancement bonus. AoMF provides an enhancement bonus. Enhancement bonus is not a generic term in the rules that is used to cover any and all bonuses regardless of source. Enhancement is a specific type of bonus. Enhancement bonuses (generally) do not stack with each other. Just like if you have multiple items providing a luck bonus those bonuses do not stack with each other. Or morale, or any of the other specific types of bonuses.
So, we have several different things that are Enhancement Bonuses, all using the same term but meaning different things. We have the fact that the source spell for the AOMF , Greater Magic Fang specifically says it does not penetrate DR. We are not sure if an improvised magic weapon penetrates DR or not.
AOMF was not copy and pasted from 3.5, there was text added. So it wasn't overlooked. All we really need here is a yes or no, and the fact that it has not gotten one is worrying. Either it always penetrated DR or it has not. I'm not trying to be rude here and I know the Dev team is probably busy with a bunch of things, and that is understandable. I'm not asking for a write up or an explanation of anything.
I'm really starting to worry that we have not heard anything because this is tied up in what is going on with the Monk and Flurry of Blows and all of that.
To be Asmodeus's advocate, Amulet of Mighty Fist could have been copy pasted from 3.5 (when GMF and GMW worked exactly like any magic weapon).
If they hadn't changed how those spells worked, this wouldn't be as confusing as it is. I really, really wish they hadn't.
Does the Amulet of Mighty Fists provide extra hardness and HP?
If anything, they were far too general and not nearly specific enough.
I disagree, as have others but there is no real way to dissuade you from that.
Also for the record, I believe JJ's stance was more of a "I don't like enhancement bonuses bypassing DR ever, so no". At least that is the impression that I got. Using his statement as the "AoMF is the exeception" is not strong, because if JJ had his way (again, as I interpreted his comment, I apologize if I am twisting his words), it would not be the exception and the enhancement bonuses to bypass DR rules would be tossed.
Right, but it is really the only scrap of information we have for clarification on this. This isn't really a brand new issue, I've been wondering about this with my natural weapon fighters for ages. I actually used to be in the camp that just assumed it did penetrate DR and have played that way, but now with the issues others have brought up I know am actually unsure. It could go either way.
Really all we need here is a quick yes or no.
Brain in a Jar wrote:
So...it's enhancement bonus is different from the Amulet of Mighty Fists because it does not apply to attack and damage when used as a weapon, or because it is not weapon itself?
Even though it provides the bonus to attack and damage that the AOMF provides and uses the same term, and is a wondrous item like the AOMF and not a weapon itself.
The source spell for AOMF does not allow you to penetrate DR.
So, we have a weapon that is not really a weapon, that uses a bonus term that other wondrous items use but does not grant them the ability to bypass DR, the item itself is based on a spell that does not allow one to bypass DR.
And...there is no possible way that somebody could think that the AOMF does not penetrate DR?
Attack and Damage. Exactly what the Amulet of Mighty Fists provides. Does nobody else see how this muddles the whole interpretation of Enhancement bonuses when it comes to DR?
Brain in a Jar wrote:
I know, it just makes the issue even more murky.
Brain in a Jar wrote:
So...the foundation for why the Amulet of Mighty Fists penetrates DR is because is gives an Enhancement bonus, right? Is that what you are saying? But other things that give an Enhancement bonus do not, despite using the same exact term? If that is not what you are saying than maybe I am just confused here.
Amulet of Mighty Fists is not listed as a weapon, it is listed as a wonderous item.
Does an improvised weapon with an enhancement bonus penetrate DR?
"This belt is a thick leather affair, often decorated with huge metal buckles. The belt grants the wearer an enhancement bonus to Strength of +2, +4, or +6."
Brain in a Jar wrote:
Come on man. This is so murky and gray we have no idea how this is supposed to work. All we have is the word of one Paizo employee saying how it shouldn't bypass DR.
The improvised weapon thing is even more hilarious example of how this just does not make any sense. There are so many exceptions, duplications of the same term for two different items but do not give the same benefits the term "Enhancement Bonus" means several different things.
There is a compelling case to be made on both sides of the argument. The Amulet of Mighty Fists also enhances you, because it improves your unarmed attacks and your natural attacks, not exactly something you can hand to somebody else to use or buy on the street.
Brain in a Jar wrote:
If I use my unarmed attack or natural weapons with a belt of giant strength, are they not getting the enhancement bonus of the belt to attack and damage?
Yeah, you've done a great job really working with what you have been given to do a good job for what your party needs you to do with a little help from your friends.
The problem is, as somebody pointed out above with the same buffing and help that the other 3/4ths BAB classes outshine him at his own game. That is really all that is being said. I think everybody here wants the Monk to be an awesome kung-fu master, not an anchor that the party has to drag along.
Darth Grall wrote:
Sure. I appreciate the attempt...but I think he just proves the point even more so that the Monk is always a bottle half full of water. Just turning the bottle upside down and standing it on the lid does not now mean it is full, just that the water has gone to a different place.
Meanwhile a Fighter is a 12oz lukewarm beer and the Wizard is a frosty keg.