There is a theory that Zombie movies etc are some popular because you can shoot humans and go to town on them, without them being 'human'.
Evil outsiders fill a similar role in FRPG - you can wail on them with the complete assurance that you are smiting evil and without need to 'hold back'.
That said, I respect your personal preferences in wanting to avoid this aspect of the fantasy genre.
I wish the horse hadn't bolted already and that Ninja talents were limited to their own pool but rogues got open access via Int or something and that fighter feats were specific to fighters only... but it has.
Power creep sucks. Sometimes it just seems the right thing to do at the time but then the full scope of the impact is known later.
That said, I also have to echo Rynjin. While I don't think the fighter class is a 'bad' class, the newer classes has been given better toys to play with and this has eroded by fighter and rogue both.
For those who are concerned with people dipping into this class for Weapon Finesse, how is that different than a dip into Fighter for the same effect?
Fighters don't get panache at level 1 or access to deeds or 4 skills a level (who's dip permanently gives a +3 class skill bonus) to a wide range of useful skills.
I like these. Parry would work a bit better, it gives an added benefit for combat expertise - for levels 1-7 it would cancel the penalty. Its also similar to the Aldori Swordlord Archetype ability and fits nicely.
Also maybe something that would bring in Dex to Damage BUT NOT make Dervish Dancing etc the gold standard to do so? A Class feature or Feat that allows access to the DD or Aldori Dueling Mastery / Rolendo style with any 1hd Slashing/piecing weapon the character has weapon focus in in place of the weapon NORMALLY designated as part of the feat
Steven Osborne 943 wrote:
I believe they are looking into that.
Rogue Eidolon wrote:
Where is the playtest for Rhiana? She sounds intriguing.
True LM but there is a lot more noise over the SB damage potential than there is over the feat tax that everyone has to pay to do disarm etc.
That said, I've advocated for a while that some class feature be incorporated that waives the Stat entry fee into Combat Expertise.
It may have been mentioned but it just occurred to me, if they don't make Swashbuckler Expertise either a) Standard Expertise or b) Include a sentence that makes it count as a pre-req. then the class is screwed for buying Piranha Strike and anything else that has a Finesse pre req.
Now I've said it before and I say it again, Piranha Strike should be a published feat in this book if the only other place it is published is Savaranga - The Lost Colony.
Ricardo Pennacchia wrote:
Well, i'm pretty sure is too late for that suggestion, but maybe the skald would fit better in the concept of the bloodrager: full BAB, d10 Hit Die, 4 levels of spells taken from the Bard spell list (up to 4th level spells).
I TOTALLY would love to see D10/Full BAB martial weapons/Medium Armour - NO spells but bardic countersong inspiration etc.
That said, I think there is Zero chance of that happening. Based on the Week 1 blog, sounds like they are committed to the spell casting aspect... which will lock this class in at 3/4 BAB
Ironically I was called one about 1984 or thereabouts.
Not disappointed at all... I believe we are only 1 week into the Playtest period and while they are not looking into everyones individual hobby horses, they are looking at the class... they'll make some changes, throw them back out there, and maybe get to changing a few things more.
I think a lot of frustration is around the 'need' for quick gratification on responses from the Devs in addressing the points raised. If we don't see a Dev on the thread changing stuff straight away there are moans that they don't listen (heck, I've been guilty of it too), but the reality is they are plugging away in the background.
Which is not to say some of the posters don't have excellent and well reasoned points.
That said, I am hoping in a week or two's time they do come back with a big blog update or even a PDF update saying whats been taken onboard and changed and what they needed tested now. It should calm things down somewhat.
I am happy that they are looking at the mobility angle as well as a bunch of other stuff.
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Think of the Rogues! Why won't anyone think of the Rogues?
I for one am grateful that Sean and the team are limiting access... but hoping the Rogue can access ALL the slayer talents (like those of the investigator). The rogues strength (for a given value of the word "strength" becomes like that of the Fighter and the rogue becomes very open and customisable.
In its current form? Its just another bard. It could likely be an archetype with some massaging.
A martial inspirational rage song-ing character? Its new - it takes still from the Barbarian while being distinct and from the bard (inspiration, counter song, knowledge etc) but is distinct from the bard insofar as this one will be very much combat focused and hopefully hit like a mack truck.
A side ways food for thought.
The Fencer Trait becomes almost a must... given that the Parry and Riposte features are AoO rolls (there may be some argument on the parry side of things being an attack roll but I believe its an Opposed Attack roll)
You gain a +1 trait bonus on attack of opportunity attack rolls made with daggers, swords, and similar bladed weapons.
Query: Does this class REALLY need to have Spell Access?
I mean, really?
Do we already have an inspiring, D10/Full BAB character class? The Cavalier? Well - he is a bit weak sauce at it but ok. But there is an empty Niche here and the Cavalier doesn't rage or cause others to rage etc.
Another Bardy, 3/4 BAB type? We got one of those already.
Strip out the spells. Have the Bardy abilities, rage song (as some one said, his rage can be his performance) and make him a mean bugger in battle. Martial weapons and Medium Armour.
Its a new class that fits between bard and barbarian.
We already have a raging spell caster too, fresh off the assembly line even - we don't need another (esp. if the synergies are pretty weak).
How many of the 10 new classes are spell casters? 7. Can we make this one a martial and take it down to 6? Please?
After reading the discussion back and forth I am really for the following.
Make it a Full BAB/D10 HP character
It is different from the paladin, it is different from the Cleric, it is different from the fighter.
The only fear I have at that point would be, "Who would play a fighter?" Bonus feats probably need to be tightly looked at else the fighters niche would be eroded.
Yet Another 3/4 BAB divine caster? Meh.
DM Beckett wrote:
I like this... class feature for the first. Feat for each additional weapon you want to benefit from it. Sure, some concepts may get the inside lane with more optimal favoured weapons but having versatility is something most War Priests will eventually prize and invest in.
While I risk being pelted by a few peanuts in the Gallery, 4th Ed had a term for a warrior type that did damage but had somewhat a glass jaw... Striker. This term fits well for the Slayer. It hits hard (harder if it gets sneak attack) HOPEFULLY killing or disabling its enemy and then on to the next target... but if stuck in melee for too long, doesn't have the defense capabilities to stand up for too much punishment.
I ran an event of sorts at my friends daughters party. I did register it - haven't plugged in the results. All pre-gens played.
What an unusual thing for a girls 16th B'day but hey, she's one of the new breed of cool gamer girls who are into gaming/anime/SciFi etc at an early age but I digress.
I had a full table but didn't get all their details (mind you, I know them all) and didn't issue them their new PFS numbers (got those pre-game). I did tell them I would get their chronicles set up etc but haven't got around to it... again, not a massive issue as they aren't PFS players atm (I am planning on running PFS for them during the Holidays though).
Whats needed to register new players against PFS #s and get the event recorded for them?
I am about 2 weeks from wrapping up my session of Dawn of the Scarlet Sun I think. Maybe 10 days with some luck.
But I thought Buffy spread that ability out now...
+5... By level 3 Acrobatics should be providing an additional +1
Could be a hobby horse issue. The Arcanist 'belonged' to one Dev and the WP belongs to another who is more closely 'wed' to the concept. It could be because while the team have the bandwidth to re-do one class, they don't have time for another.
It could ALSO be that they are taking notes, and nodding their heads but they don't want to throw changes or updated model out there as yet.
The whole 'We aren't changing names and classes' stance MAY be broadly true (otherwise they'd never get out of playtest without the more passionate of the fanbase setting the forums on fire to get THEIR 'hobby horse' in the ACG) but they've shown a willingness to take stuff back to the drawing board before and I'm trusting them to do that here.
Mind you I am still somewhat sour over Samurai still having shield use :)
Red Mage in another thread added this as an aside concept and I feel strongly enough about it that I think its worth adding here. Tip of the hat here.
I won't jump on the 'Rogues be useless' bandwagon here, but I will say they have increasingly stiff competition from new classes and archetypes. If Rogues are at least able to access the newer 'toys' they become a bit like the fighter in so far as flexibility is concerned. Its not much, but its something.