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Goblin Squad Member. Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber. Pathfinder Society Member. 3,227 posts (3,233 including aliases). 1 review. 1 list. 1 wishlist. 4 Pathfinder Society characters. 3 aliases.


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Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Komoda wrote:
Then what is (and technically before the action) referring to?

If I understand what you are referencing, it has to do with the order of operations for resolving actions and any AoO that results from said actions. It's a game-ism that makes allowances for the fact that while "in reality" things are occuring simultaneously, in order for the game to run smoothly—an ironic statement considering the nature of the discussion, I do agree—things have to happen in a specified order so that we all don't go crazy trying to keep track of stuff.

In the case of casting a spell, "in reality" the AoO occurs while the caster is casting the spell; for the game, the player declares that a spell is being cast, the AoO happens, then the player casts the spell (after passing a possible concentration check).

In the case of a prone character, the player declares that they are going to stand up. The AoO happens, then the player stands up and removes the prone condition (this is why trip-locks arent possible—the prone condition isn't removed when the stand up is declared, it's removed after the character stands up.

In the case of moving, the player declares that they are moving. The AoO happens, then the player moves if able to do so. If tripped, no more movement is allowed if they've already moved any distance. If they haven't moved any distance, I personally would allow them to crawl 5 feet (which costs their entire movement rate, and would provoke its own AoO), otherwise they're stuck where they're at.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Alexander Augunas wrote:
Imaria wrote:
So I suppose my question is, why are you so sure that reach is not considered part of a Tentacle, when it would be an inherent part of a Spear or Whip?

Chapter 8, Page 195 of the Core Rulebook talks about Large and larger creatures and reach. It notes how exceptions exist, as does Table 8-4 on that same page. That section basically states that reach and natural attacks aren't the same, even when a creature uses a different reach value for a specific kind of attack.

As written, your reach is not impacted so you use the default reach. An FAQ that allows polymorph spells to grant you the reach of whatever creature you're transforming into would make sense, and might not even be all that broken. (Its really the druid / monk multiclassers that this affects, after all.) But as written, the spell doesn't talk about what it does to your reach, so you have to assume that those conditional modifiers don't apply. You use the standard, unmodified reach listed in the creature's listing.

But I implore you to hit the FAQ button. With Mark Seifter at the helm, we just might get an official answer! :D

When you polymorph into another creature, you assume that creature's physical characteristics. A creature's extra reach for its natural weapons is generally due to the fact that it's physical characteristics grant it the extra reach, not because there is an extraordinary ability that grants it. If you polymorph into a dragon, your bite attack has extra reach because the dragon has a long neck. If you polymorph into a lamia matriarch, you only have a 5' reach, not a 10' reach for large creatures.

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In my RotRL game, I declared that for the summoner in my group the symbol was the same symbol that keeps popping up in the adventure, and everyone is like WTF.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

So instead of a bonus to perception, they get a bonus to initiative, and instead of a +1 to damage, they get an extra 1d6 to sneak attack, and the CHA damage is changed into sickened for non-worshippers. I like it.

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Its a trap. You design the trap to force you to stab yourself with a vicious dagger with the intent of it applying 3d6. Set the CR appropriately.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
NobodysHome wrote:

Hey, an avowed WBL heretic is doing the spreadsheet.

Just had an hour, got to the end of the Catacombs, so the PCs should be level 3, WBL = 3000, 4 PCs = 12,000 in total wealth.

Selling *everything* was rather interesting:
- Things every GM would allow to be sold (things like potions of CLW, medium-sized masterwork weapons, etc.) was just 2670.5
- Things owned by goblins and demons that some GMs might balk at buying (including said dagger) was 7274.5

So we're at 9945 instead of 12k, but I happen to know of a certain trove in Thistletop that's going to skyrocket that number.

So far, right about WBL if the GM allows the players to sell goblin gear.

But yeah, those masks in Book 2 are the "big huge cash influx" that changes the nature of the game. I know my PCs suddenly had plate mail and magical weapons once those sold...

EDIT: And I do know that my PCs felt the AP was very cash-poor until Thistletop, so I'm not surprised the number's low at this point...

Just to make sure of your methodology, things like tiaras, fine gowns, and weapons with an "artistic" value get 100%.

My cleric had full plate before the end of book 1—or was it between book 1 and 2...regardless, he didnt have to wait long.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
rknop wrote:

The difference between this and Duke Nukem' Forever is that this book is actually written. It's just not printed. Duke Nukem'... kept changing. Forever.

Hopefully the other difference is that when we finally get the Strategy Guide in our hands, it won't suck out loud the way DNF did. (Or, well, so I'm told by many sources. Never played it myself. Never will. So I can't judge for myself.)

Actually, the book was printed, shipped to the US, discovered to be of poor quality, sent back, reprinted, reshipped to the US, and is currently held up in shipping containers.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Chemlak wrote:

Love the chart, HF. Does the job nicely, but (and I really am being super-picky, here), it doesn't quite address the young Tarrasque enlarged problem.

Scenario: I'm a GM, I'm busy running an adventure, and I preprinted all my monster statblocks. During the encounter, my cunning BBEG who has managed to acquire a young Tarrasque (everybody needs a pet, right?) casts his (custom spell) enlarge magical beast on Fluffy (even baby Tarrasques deserve cute pet names), as well as strong jaw.

The problem: I now need to recalculate all of Fluffy's damage, including his 1d8 gore.

The solution: I open the Bestiary, I look up the Tarrasque, I go to the chart, 1d10, down one step, up two steps, and I get 3d8.

My pipe dream: Get the same answer without having to look in the Bestiary.

It's an extra step to the solution that I could do without, especially since I have a handy-dandy chart that's meant to give me all the answers.

Like I said, pipe dream. I think your chart is probably the best we're going to get.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the issue, but the chart provides the answer you seek:

You have a creature with the young template that gives you a damage die of 1d8. You know that the young template is one size smaller than the base creature. Find the -1 column and scroll down until you get to 1d8. Enlarge once to 1d10, and apply strong jaw to get 3d8.

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RumpinRufus wrote:
DominusMegadeus wrote:
He has nowhere to look to. He knows absolutely nothing about where I am. He still takes full sneak attack damage from me, but this level damage suddenly goes away?
He has a freakin' arrow protruding from his chest that literally points directly at you. I'm pretty sure he has some idea where you are.

Nah. All you have to do is stay hidden for a little while longer until the eye icon is closed, then you're good.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
blackbloodtroll wrote:
HangarFlying wrote:
Kchaka wrote:

Oh, look! Yet another bastard sword thread . . . Oh well.

Funny, a human can't use a medium bastard sword (1d10) in one hand with -4 penalty without the exotic weapon proficiency feat, but he can use a small greatsword (1d10) in one hand with a -2 penalty with martial weapon proficiency.

Funny, a human can't use a medium greatsword in one hand with -4 penalty.

Greatswords are not One-handed Exotic Weapons.

Bastard Swords are.

The Falcata is an One-handed Exotic Weapons, that even a Commoner can wield in one hand, with penalties.

Bastard Sword is just an exception, within an exception.

You know, for reasons.

You can keep whining all you want, but it doesnt change the fact that you're being argumentative just for the sake of being argumentative. You know exactly what I meant when I said what I did: if you don't have the EWP, the bastard sword is treated no different than a greatsword.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Ah, I have it confused with natural weapons. Seriously, where's that FAQ request asking for a collection of all tables? Be pretty nice to have.

This might help.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Kchaka wrote:

Oh, look! Yet another bastard sword thread . . . Oh well.

Funny, a human can't use a medium bastard sword (1d10) in one hand with -4 penalty without the exotic weapon proficiency feat, but he can use a small greatsword (1d10) in one hand with a -2 penalty with martial weapon proficiency.

Funny, a human can't use a medium greatsword in one hand with -4 penalty.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Though my post is probably moot, considering the book has already been shipped to the printers, here are a few things I wouldn't mind seeing:

1) Revamped Summoner spell list.
2) Fighter-types being the only ones to get multiple attacks from BAB.

Well, I guess that's it really. The other changes I'd like to see really wouldn't be applicable to this book.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Bandw2 wrote:
undead are evil because in pathfinder's alignment good is pro-life, while evil is pro-death. thus, undead by existance are "evil" for all intents and purposes.

While undead are 99.9% evil (especially the non-intelligent ones), there are a few handful that may be of a different alignment per GM descretion—but they had better have a darned good backstory.

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I've been flip-flopping in my mind and have thought about a few scenarios. I've come to rest on the "you can't change the action" side. Though, in the example of being tripped before moving, I would allow the character to crawl 5 feet. In this case, I don't look at crawling as a separate move action from moving, rather its costing you your entire movement rate to crawl those 5 feet.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Dustyboy wrote:
So what if a Large sized goblin holds a double hackbutt?

A black hole is created and everything gets sucked in, thus destroying everything in existence. Congrats, your curiosity just ended the world.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Avoron has the right of it. Pounce is a special ability that is applied to a charge. Being "slowed" does not prevent a charge, hence being able to still get all attacks.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Pretend fireball rolling 6d6: roll 6d6, take 50% of this roll and add it to the total (Empower); roll an additional 6d6 (maximize). Apply.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Where can I find the clockwork prosthesis?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
aboyd wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
If the module as written is unclear, it is up to you to determine what 'run as written' means.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's what just took place in this thread. My conclusions are posted in a bulleted list a few posts above.

EDIT: HangarFlying, loved your text, and I might use some of it to describe the scene to the players. Thanks for posting.

Here is a time lapse video of a storm that hit us last June. I remember this one distinctly because I was at home and my wife called me saying she pulled off the side of the road—she couldn't see more than 10-20 yards in front of her and I could hear the car getting the holy snot beat out of it by hail. She was about 15 miles northwest of the point where this video was shot from (and probably got hit 15-20 minutes prior to when it rolled in here). So, the final moments were caught shortly after 5:30 PM—which is not nighttime during that time of the year.

EDIT: I should add that my wife made it out ok, if only a bit shaken up by the experience. Amazingly, the car made it through remarkably well: the windshield took a hit right at the seam at the top center, a handful of sizeable dents plus about a dozen small dents.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Nefreet wrote:
HangarFlying wrote:
Applying Strong Jaw and INA, it is essentially a 3 size increase.

We're still not actually sure if those two effects stack, or whether Strong Jaw overlaps Improved Natural Attack.

That's what THIS FAQ request is for =).

'For the sake of argument', then. ;-)

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Having read the full rule quoted in this thread, I'm leaning towards the war priest using his level when determining the effects of the feat. Though, admittedly, this does up the workload as you have to keep careful track of which feats are the bonus feats.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Let me work through this...let's do the 7d6.

So, the easiest thing to do would be to divide it by 7 and use 1d6.

Applying Strong Jaw and INA, it is essentially a 3 size increase.

A 3 size increase on a d6 makes it a 3d6. Multiply that by 7 to get 21d6.

If it were 8d6, Strong Jaw and INA would make it 24d6, so I guess that 21d6 seems reasonable.

Now, if it were 7d6 with just INA, doing this same thing would be 7d8. Is 7d8 a reasonable increase to 7d6?

If it were just Strong Jaw, the method yields 14d6, which is certainly in line with the "double dice" for two size increases.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

61 out of 5228 attacks, that's not too bad. It's certainly not enough to scrap the whole concept over. One could argue that with a number of these, you could divide the number of dice by what ever number to get an amount that is already on the chart, then multiply the new amount by that number (certainly not perfect)—20dX divide by 5 to get 4dX, adjust, then multiply by 5. This works for 20d6 and applying strong jaw (I'm assuming that something that does 20d6 is colossal, so the damage dice is doubled). If the 20d6 was INA & Strong Jaw, it would be 60d6—assuming my theory holds true. Certainly more d6 than what I have in my stock.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Living in the middle of the US, I am quite familiar with thunderstorms.

While some storms may pop up suddenly, you usually have a few hours of warning and they are late afternoon, early evening storms. It's a hot and humid day, mid afternoon puffy clouds start forming. Around 4-6 PM, the clouds start to grow—you can actually watch them grow in real time, it's pretty cool. An hour or so later, the rain, lightning, and thunder start. These storms are relatively isolated, usually only 20-30 miles wide at most, many times smaller, though there might be a number of them throughout the area. The neatest thing is when they are near you: the sky is clear except for this one section that is a dark gray color. The storm moves by after 30 minutes or so, and then you see the backside lit by the orange and pink glow of the setting sun. It's pretty amazing.

Then there are the big lines of thunderstorms, including the fast-paced squall lines. These storms are preceded by high whispy clouds, and as the day progresses, those clouds start to thicken. You usually hear the thunder before anything else. The approaching sky is almost black, sometimes there is a greenish tint to it. Depending on how fast the storm is moving, you have about 20 mins to an hour from when you first hear the thunder to when it gets to you. The sky darkens to almost night, and the rain comes down in heavy sheets—sometimes it's difficult to see the house across the street. Bright white flashes of light pop followed by thunder that literally shakes everything. This usually lasts for about 20-30 minutes before tapering off. If it's a squall line, it's usually a one-and-done, though there might be some lingering rain for a few more hours. The frontal storms come in waves and tend to last throughout the night. These lines of storms are hundreds of miles long.

Anyways, thunderstorms shouldn't just pop out of nowhere—they shouldn't be surprised (unless there is magic involved, of course). There should be clues that give them at least a few hours of warning that if they're not going to seek shelter, they're in trouble.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Their clerics get really fancy colored gauntlets?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
_Ozy_ wrote:

Every two steps should double, +100%, which is roughly +41%, +41% if each step was proportionally equal. Generally the charts do +50%, +33%.

However, for odd dice amounts, it actually works pretty well:

7d8 -> 10d8 : 43%

10d8 -> 14d8 : 40%

Is there a list of creatures that are true outliers like this? I imagine the list is pretty small when compared to the entire list of creatures out there. Perhaps adding a rule of thumb for those few:

"Double the dice for every two size increases. Single increases add 1.5 (round down) [hmmm, .5?] the amount of dice."

That seems to approximate what you're saying.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

There are outliers (someone mentioned a creature that does 7dX dice damage). I think in those cases, you just need to make a best guess based on the chart.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Chemlak wrote:
I meant that the chart needs to go up to +7 size, to cover colossal creature with INA and strong jaw.

Don't need to, it's already there in the INA list.

EDIT: But it wouldn't be too difficult to put in a +7 column.

EDIT2: Ask, and ye shall receive!

EDIT3: You mentioned in an earlier post an example about a Terrasque with the young template getting enlarged. Using the chart, you know that the young template means that it is one size smaller than the base size, so go down the -1 column until you get to 1d8, and then you know that it should be 1d10 when enlarged.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Bringing this to your attention so you can fix it so we don't lose this awesome tool! EDIT: That's a link, btw.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Secret Wizard wrote:

Feel free to indicate a particular class. Otherwise I'll get creative.

Non-core races encouraged but I'll do whatever.

Indianapolis 500.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Liz Courts wrote:
Spook205 wrote:
Has no one else noticed that Kobold Cleaver's smurfified avatar is a kobold with the smurf template but me?
There's a story there. :)

Seriously? What the Smurf? You can't just leave us hanging like that.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Chemlak wrote:
Need to be able to account for INA plus Strong Jaw.

To me, what makes sense for those creatures affected by INA and Strong Jaw is to first adjust the base damage by Strong Jaw, then adjust that by INA.

EDIT: To be quite honest, it really doesn't matter. You end up with the same result in either case. The only difference is those large creatures that have a base 1d8 damage. In that case, you end up with 3d8 vs. 4d6. With a difference of average dice of 0.5, that's close enough to say that they're pretty much the same.

So, if your creature has INA, and it has Strong Jaw cast on it, just use the INA progression and increase it by two more steps. You'll get the exact same result as if you do it in the same way that I first said (with the insignificant exception that I just mentioned).

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I just put the two charts together into an excel file and then also added a +5 and +6 size increase column.

Throughout all of the progression it goes 1dx, 2dx, 3dx, 4dx, 6dx, 8dx, 12dx. So 1d2-1d6 is easy, because you can extrapolate the +5 and +6 by that progression based upon other dice that use that progression.

The 1d8 +5 would be 8d6 as extrapolated from the 1d12 and 2d6 progression. It would be reasonable to presume that the 1d8 +6 would be 12d6.

The 1d10 +5 and +6 progression pick up directly from the 2d10 +3 and +4 progression.

The 1d12 +5 would reasonably be 12d6 and the +6 can be extrapolated to reasonably be 16d6. (My premise being that at 4dX, it increases by 2 for each size increase; at 8dX, it increases by 4. This would also fit with the "double dice for every other size increase" that people have been talking about).

The 2d4 and 2d6 progressions follow the 1d8 and 1d12 progressions respectively.

The 2d8 follows the 1d12 except uses d8 instead of d6.

The 2d10 +6 is the real leap of faith, but if you follow the "double ever other size increase" it would be 24d8. The +5 can be reasonably assumed to be 16d8.

EDIT: Added link to the file.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Nefreet wrote:

One critique of that chart would be that Pathfinder's would have to go a little bit higher.

Sure, going by the chart we can see that a Colossal-sized Longsword deals 6d6 damage, but we must infer how much damage a Colossal-sized +1 Impact Longsword would deal.

Two steps more would probably suffice.

Sure, but adding two extra columns to this chart is much easier than making an entirely new chart.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Chemlak wrote:

Depends if we're only talking about the chart for manufactured weapons, or natural weapons, too. Need to be able to account for INA plus Strong Jaw.

Also... Greatsword? Why doesn't the chart have a 2d6 increasing row?

Well, this list is specific for manufactured weapons. As far as the 2d6, I think that's more of an oversight on my part. I'll go back and check.

EDIT: Yup, it was my mistake. In my haste, I left it off. The 2d6 progression follows the 1d12 progression. DISCLAIMER: There might be other mistakes on there too. ;-)

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Relevant information for the discussion:

"3.5 DMG, page 28: Increasing Weapon Damage by Size wrote:


[The first column is the damage by a medium weapon, each successive column is damage by the number of size categories increased--HangarFlying]

Med / One / Two / Three / Four
1d2 / 1d3 / 1d4 / 1d6 / 1d8
1d3 / 1d4 / 1d8 / 1d8 / 2d6
1d4 / 1d6 / 1d8 / 2d6 / 3d6
1d6 / 1d8 / 2d6 / 3d6 / 4d6
1d8 / 2d6 / 3d6 / 4d6 / 6d6
1d10 / 2d8 / 3d8 / 4d8 / 6d8
1d12 / 3d6 / 4d6 / 6d6 / 8d6
2d4 / 2d6 / 3d6 / 4d6 / 6d6
2d8 / 3d8 / 4d8 / 6d8 / 8d8
2d10 / 4d8 / 6d8 / 8d8 / 12d8

"3.5 DMG, page 28: Decreasing Weapon Damage by Size wrote:


[The first column is the damage by a medium weapon, each successive column is damage by the number of size categories decreased--HangarFlying]

Med / One / Two / Three / Four
1d2 / 1 / -- / -- / --
1d3 / 1d2 / 1 / -- / --
1d4 / 1d3 / 1d2 / 1 / --
1d6 / 1d4 / 1d2 / 1d2 / 1
1d8 / 1d6 / 1d4 / 1d3 / 1d2
1d10 / 1d8 / 1d6 / 1d4 / 1d3
1d12 / 1d10 / 1d8 / 1d6 / 1d4
2d4 / 1d6 / 1d4 / 1d3 / 1d2
2d6 / 1d10 / 1d8 / 1d6 / 1d4
2d8 / 2d6 / 1d10 / 1d8 / 1d6
2d10 / 2d8 / 2d6 / 1d10 / 1d8

EDIT: FWIW, it appears that Hero Lab uses this damage increase/decrease progression.

Liberty's Edge

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That works too!

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
blackbloodtroll wrote:
You don't need to wear armor, to wear gauntlets.

That is certainly true, but such cases are likely in such an extreme minority as to be statistically irrelevant.

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graystone wrote:
HangarFlying wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Zwordsman wrote:

who is prof in medium/heavy armour but not with simple weapons out of curiousity?

cause i figure that they require it since they're listed as simple weapons..

originally i htought shield prof gave you prof in shield bashing but as ws pointed out in other things, they're listed in simple and martial categories so you techincally could have prof but not attack prof. so i guess its possible to know how to wear gaunts but not know how to punch with them in a way that is effective.

Druids are proficient in medium armor but not all simple weapons.
Is there non-metal armor with gauntlets?
Medium is Hide and Lamellar (horn). heavy is Stone Plate.

Those armors do not come with gauntlets. I originally thought that all medium and heavy armor come with gauntlets as well, but there is no blanket statement saying so. Those armors that come with gauntlets are stated as such in the description for each armor. Those armors you listed are not described as coming with gauntlets.

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Imbicatus wrote:
Zwordsman wrote:

who is prof in medium/heavy armour but not with simple weapons out of curiousity?

cause i figure that they require it since they're listed as simple weapons..

originally i htought shield prof gave you prof in shield bashing but as ws pointed out in other things, they're listed in simple and martial categories so you techincally could have prof but not attack prof. so i guess its possible to know how to wear gaunts but not know how to punch with them in a way that is effective.

Druids are proficient in medium armor but not all simple weapons.

Is there non-metal armor with gauntlets?

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@BBT:

That's a very valid question.

Considering that in a vast majority of circumstances, those with access would already be proficient in simple weapons, I personally don't have an issue with there being a proficiency requirement. It is listed as a light simple weapon, after all.

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
blackbloodtroll wrote:
HangarFlying wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

If the Gauntlet is always an "Unarmed Attack", and never a "Unarmed Strike", thus unaffected by things like Weapon Focus, or Improved Unarmed Strike, then how does anyone ever threaten, or not provoke, when attacking with a Gauntlet?

By taking the Improved Unarmed Strike feat.
So, feats that apply to Unarmed Strikes, apply to Gauntlet attacks?

I encourage you to reread the feat and pay close attention to the wording used.

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
blackbloodtroll wrote:

If the Gauntlet is always an "Unarmed Attack", and never a "Unarmed Strike", thus unaffected by things like Weapon Focus, or Improved Unarmed Strike, then how does anyone ever threaten, or not provoke, when attacking with a Gauntlet?

By taking the Improved Unarmed Strike feat.

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
blackbloodtroll wrote:
HangarFlying wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

How can one say it counts as an Unarmed Strike, for the purposes of threatening, and provoking, but not for feats and abilities?

What rules evidence notes it counts as one in certain cases, but not in others?

Where does the gauntlet say that it's an unarmed strike? It doesn't. So stop arguing the straw man. The description says that it lets unarmed strikes do lethal damage. In the very next sentence, it says that a strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack.

I am saying it's a weapon attack. Others say otherwise.

What straw man?

It is specifically being argued that at sometimes, it is treated as an unarmed strike, and sometimes not.

I am asking how, and when, does it count as an unarmed strike, and what rules support it doing so?

Ah, I missed that particular argument in this thread. Being treated as an unarmed strike does not mean that it is an unarmed strike.

The fact that the description of the gauntlet says that it is considered an unarmed attack and that the combat chapter tells you what unarmed attacks do and cannot do—coincidentally, it works very similar to how unarmed strikes work. So, no, it's not a real stretch to say that gauntlets are pretty much unarmed strikes that do lethal damage. And while it may not be technically correct, in real world usage, it works good enough.

Is it possible that gauntlets are "armed" unarmed attacks? Certainly, but given the list of examples in the CRB of what definitely constitutes "armed" unarmed attacks, I think that it's a very slim chance that that is the case.

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MeanMutton wrote:


If you want to say that holding a gauntlet and smacking someone counts as an improvised weapon - sure. I can go with that. If you want to say that wearing it and somehow flailing in a way other than the technique a trained striker would use it to deliver an effective punch and doing so would eliminate the disadvantage that's explicitly and clearly written into the rules - no. That's ridiculous.

I don't have a problem with them wearing the gauntlets and using them in an improvised manner in order to get slashing damage...but they're still going to suck that AoO.

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graystone wrote:
Avoron wrote:

Yeah. That.

"A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack."
"Attacking unarmed provokes an attack of opportunity from the character you attack, provided she is armed."
"An unarmed character can't take attacks of opportunity."

I'm not sure how you can get more specific than that.

Unarmed Strike and Unarmed Attack are not the same thing.

An attack with a gauntlet counts as an unarmed attack. It says so right in the rules.

Now add that weapon attacks are normally armed and there are things called "armed" unarmed attacks. So just because an attack is an unarmed one doesn't mean it MUST not threaten or provoke. If anything would make an unarmed attack "armed", IMO it would be to use a weapon...

The exceptions provided for in the Combat chapter under "armed" unarmed attacks, while certainly not a definitive list, very strongly indicate that gauntlets do not fall under this category.

EDIT

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
blackbloodtroll wrote:

How can one say it counts as an Unarmed Strike, for the purposes of threatening, and provoking, but not for feats and abilities?

What rules evidence notes it counts as one in certain cases, but not in others?

Where does the gauntlet say that it's an unarmed strike? It doesn't. So stop arguing the straw man. The description says that it lets unarmed strikes do lethal damage. In the very next sentence, it says that a strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
blackbloodtroll wrote:
HangarFlying wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
You can use a weapon as an improvised weapon.
If you're using it in a manner for which it is not designed.
Like, as an improvised weapon?

This is the only viable way a gauntlet can be used as an improvised weapon. Merely saying that you're using it in an improvised manner while you're wearing it doesn't cut it.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
blackbloodtroll wrote:
You can use a weapon as an improvised weapon.

If you're using it in a manner for which it is not designed.

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