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Habar414's page

17 posts (38 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 1 alias.


Hmm, what sort of actions would be allowed during the reaction phase? In your example about the party vs. ogres would the ogre's reactions have any effect on their defense? Say one of the ogres tries to block the fighter's slash at his leg my shifting his foot back or blocking the attack with his club, would that have an effect on wether or not the ogre was hit?

I really like your idea of Team 1 Action->Team 2 Reaction->Team 2 Action->Team 1 Reaction.

I think it would make it easy to understand what happens in combat if the the current 6 seconds it takes a character in pathfinder to take their turn was turned into the "Team 1 action -> Team 2 reaction" and spell effects and attacks were resolved at the end of that..err.."turn" lets call it. That way the enemies reaction could increase their defenses, OR ready for a large action they plan to do on their turn, leaving themselves open. Flatfooted opponents wouldn't be able to defend themselves and their defenses would suffer as a result.

At the end of the "turn" when attacks and spells are declared and after reactions are declared, they would happen in order that the actions were declared. So in your example, first the fighter's swing, then the wizard's spell, then the rogue's flank, then the cleric's spell.

What do you think? would the whole "reaction" thing be too much of a change to how pathfinder's defenses are calculated? Hmm, what would it be like if the party split their actions up into sections..Say, since the fighter would want to get the "flanking" bonus with the rogue the fighter says he waits to make his attack until the rogue is in place. Would he then be able to make the attack? I guess this is doable in current pathfinder by using readied actions..Hmm.

Now another note. What do you think would happen if in your example, with the rules I suggested, would happen to a character's actions if the target of their action has changed since they decided on what they were doing. Say, the fighter slices the troll's foot off, the wizard casts grease, and the troll falls down to the side where he's missing a foot. Now the Rogue can no longer get behind the troll because now he would have to run around the troll, and that's farther than he can move and attack in a turn. So what do you think happens?

Just some thoughts :D This is a great thread, thanks for starting it Kyrt!

529: You're not really welcome in this small Irrisenie town, being a minotaur druid and all, and you've just been told by your halfling compatriot's dog (being fluent in woof) that his owner killed a guy and the party alchemist just lit the local bar on fire.

Heya! So yeah, my buddy and I were pretty disappointed with the "Siege Mage" Archetype after we read it, so we made new ones! They are still a work in progress (mostly just finding the best wording to avoid abuse/to get out intent across to the reader as best we can).

If you really want to know more and be able to under stand what these do I suggest you read up on how siege engines work in pathfinder check out the Siege Engines page on the SRD! There's a buch of stuff from ultimate combat lower down on the page.

So here they are!

Siege Magus:

Diminished spell casting: Siege Magus’ cast one fewer spell of each level than normal. If this reduces the number to 0, he may cast spells of that level only if his Intelligence allows bonus spells of that level.

Conjured Crew (Su): As a swift action the siege Magus can spend points from his arcane pool to count as having 1 additional crew members per point spent for the purpose of reloading, aiming, and firing a siege engine. These extra crew members last for one minute and count as medium creatures that assist the Wizard in loading, aiming and firing the siege weapon. Each extra crew member has an effective strength score of 10 + ½ your caster level.
This ability replaces Medium Armor Training, and Heavy Armor Training.

Bonus Feat: At 3rd level the siege magus gains the Siege Engineer feat at first level as a bonus feat.
This replaces the Magus arcana gained at 3rd level.

Siege Spellstrike (Su): At 4th level, a siege magus can use spellstrike to cast a single-target touch attack ranged spell and deliver it through a direct fire siege weapon attack. Even if the spell can normally affect multiple targets, only a single missile, ray, or effect accompanies the attack. At 11th level the siege magus can also use spellstrike to cast any spell with a duration of instantaneous and deliver it through an indirect fire siege weapon attack. The spell is considered to originate from the point of impact of the attack. The siege magus must be touching the siege engine to deliver the spell.
This ability replaces spell recall and improved spell recall.

Calculating Tactician (Ex): At 5th level when the Siege Magus mans a siege engine using his conjured crew ability he can make attacks rolls with direct fire siege weapons using his Intelligence modifier instead of his Dexterity modifier. Also, he gets a +1 bonus on checks made to fire indirect siege weapons and +1 more for every 3 levels past 5 (+6 at lvl 20).
This replaces the Magus bonus feat gained at 5th level.

Notes on Siege Magus:

- Our main goals were to make it so the siege magus can effectively use siege weapons by himself in a useful manner, and have fun doing it. Conjured crew was to help him use siege alone, Calculating tactician was supposed to make him useful, and Spellstrikeing with Indirect and Direct siege attacks was to make him useful and fun.

- Conjured Crew: So the extra crew members are meant to only help the magus by bing able to perform the actions it takes to load & aim the siege weapon, nothing else. If the siege magus has the “Master Siege Engineer” these extra “crew members” benefit from the feat like a normal crew would. They cannot be attacked or attack because they aren’t actually creatures. The ability can be flavored as “Arcane forces aim the bombard at the magus’ foes..” or “Ghostly copies of the magus pull back the catapult’s lever..”, you get the idea.

-Siege Spellstrike So this is suposed to work just like the spellstrike and ranged spellstrike that the magus already has, just with siege weapons. So, after all the loading and aiming actions are taken care of, the magus attacks with the siege weapon as part of casting the spell, to deliver the spell and such. So you could have a catapult lobbing rocks that explode a la' fireball when they land. Or you could have a balista bolt that inflicts disintegrate on hit. That kind of thing.

- Calculating Tactician: This ability only affects the attack roll. Any damage bonus to the attack from strength or another primary stat is still based off of that stat. (in the case of Rams & such) The intent of this ability is to allow the magus to make attacks with direct fire siege weapons using his intelligence when only him and his conjured crew are handling the siege weapon. I'm still not sure about how to word this ability, I just want it to be when he attacks with siege that's manned by only him and his crew he uses his Int to hit instead of dex for direct fire stuff like cannons and balistas.

Siege Wizard:

Studied Engineer: At first level the siege wizard gains the Siege Engineer feat.
This replaces scribe scroll.

Siege School: A siege wizard replaces their arcane school with the Siege School. In addition when they pick their forbidden schools they may not pick transmutation.

Arcane Siege (Su): Beginning at 1st level, the siege wizard gets a bonus on damage when operating siege weapons equal to 1/2 their wizard level (min 1).

Measured Assault (Ex): For one round the a siege wizard can may use their Intelligence modifier instead of their Dexterity modifier when making an attack roll with a Direct fire siege weapon. Also, she gets a +1 bonus on checks made to fire indirect siege weapons and +1 more for every 3 levels past 1st (+7 at level 19). Activating this ability is a free action and it can be used 3 + int mod times per day.

Arcane Assistance (Su): At 8th level when acting as the crew leader for a siege weapon the siege wizard counts as having 2 additional crew members for the purpose of reloading aiming and firing a siege engine faster. These extra crew members count as medium creatures that assist the Wizard in loading, aiming and firing the siege weapon. Each extra crew member has an effective strength score of 10 + ½ your caster level.

Animate Siege Weapon (Su): At 10th level, as a standard action, a siege wizard can animate a single ranged siege weapon within 60ft, causing it to aim, load, and attack on it's own for a number of rounds equal to half her wizard class level. The Siege weapon makes one attack per round and is magically loaded and aimed before each attack. Direct fire siege weapons use the Wizards BaB + her intelligence modifier when attacking. Indirect fire siege weapons make the targeting check to attack using the Wizards BaB + her intelligence modifier, or her BaB + Knowledge: (engineering) skill modifier if she is trained in Knowledge: (engineering). It must remain within 60 feet of her. She can direct it to attack a foe as a free action when she first uses this ability to animate the weapon, but on subsequent rounds, she must use a move action to set it against a new foe. If its current foe is defeated, the siege weapon automatically aims to attack the closest enemy. The siege weapon will move if instructed and able, but cannot attack on a turn it moved. It does not gain attacks of opportunity, nor does it provoke them. A wizard can use this ability once per day at level 10, and an addition time per day every other wizard level past 10 (twice per day at level 12, three times at level 14, four times at level 18, and 5 times at level 20). You can expend multiple uses to extend the duration of the effect on a siege engine.

At 20th level a Siege wizard can animate and fire any siege weapon within 100ft of her simultaneously while using Animate Siege Weapon. Each seige weapon controlled in this manner uses up one round of the ability every round. This ability requires intense concentration and requires the Siege Mage to use a full round action to concentrate and maintain the link to multiple siege weapons. The DC of this concentration check is 15+2 for each siege engine under the wizards control. If the wizard’s concentration is broken the siege engines cease to animate.
This ability replaces the bonus feats at 5th level and 15th level.

Notes on Siege Wizard:

Yeah, so I like this one a lot, especially the whole animating a ranged siege weapon @_@ so cool... Anyway, our goals for this were similar, It needed to be fun, not too restricting, but still made the wizard feel awesome about using siege weapons. Studied engineer, arcane siege and measured assault were intended to reward the wizard for using siege, while Arcane assistance was aimed at making it easier to use siege. And the Animate siege was supposed to open up what the wizard could do in combat, allowing him to attack once with a siege weapon as well as cast a spell. I feel like taking the wizards arcane school, scribe scroll as well as two of the wizard's bonus feats reduces the wizard's strength and versatility enough to balance out the bonus he gets with siege weapons. Mind you it's a bit more than what you give up, but it's insanely specific. you cant bring a trebuchet into a small tomb that's hiding the Litch, but unlike the paizo Siege Mage, this character can actually be useful and fun in other areas where he cant bring siege weapons.

So the capstone was initially spellstrike with any spell, and that was kinda too strong and also was treading on the Siege Magus' turf. So I changed the lvl 10 ability to what it is now and made the capstone a mass animate siege thing. Not the final iteration of it, but yeah

- the bonus crew that the Siege wizard gets is also affected by the master siege engineer and pretty much the exact same as what the magus gets.

- We came up with the Wizard Archetype first, then halfway through we thought of some abilities that just fit the magus more, so we made both. The Wizard can do it at range, more consistently and doesn't

So there you have it! Was it easy enough to understand? Was there any wording you thought was sub-par or didn't explain our intention well?

Anything you'd like to point out balance wise? I'm all ears!
Thanks for reading this far.

Hmm, I guess I can see the difference between fighter weapon training 1 and slowfall, but the example continues (right after the part I quoted) to reference sneak attack being affected by that rule too, and that only improves over time, like slow fall.

Ah, I think this might be a misunderstanding on my part on what you can use qinggong monk with, I thought that since it "changed" all of the abilities you can choose to not take you can only use it with other archtypes that dont have those abilities replaced/changed.

That makes plenty more sense now, although you can only replace perfect self at level 20 (not including the slow fall at that lvl) so even if you had an archtype that replaced perfect self, you couldn't get rid of anything to take it. Huzzah! More to suggest you can replace slow fall more than once :D

Ah, alrighty, drat, so no army of woodland critters shooting red lasers all over the battlefield. Ho hum xD. Thanks mate!

6 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.

Heya folks,

So a while back I had a conversation about the qinggong monk and what happens when you replace slow fall at lvl four with another ability. I've recently pick up the character which originally brought up the question and found out we never totally figured it out.

He thought that one lvl 4 Qinggong Monk ability replaced all instances of slowfall for the monk.

Reading the ability and taking it as it's written I agree.

But when you look at an exerpt from the Ultimate Magic Book it says on page 14 " If an archetype replaces a class ability that is part of a series of improvements or additions to a base ability (such as a fighter’s weapon training or a ranger’s favored enemy), the next time the character would gain that ability, it counts as the lower-level ability that was replaced by the archetype. In effect, all abilities in that series are delayed until the next time the class improves that ability. "

According to this after you take the 4th lvl Qinggong ability by replacing slowfall the next time the monk would gain slowfall at lvl 6 he'd get slowfall 20ft instead of slowfall 30ft.

So that part is pretty well explained, what do you think?

The next question is "can I replace the multiple instances of slowfall with qinggong abilities.?"

Now he says no, since it only lists "slowfall (lvl 4)" as an option.

I dont have hard evidence, but I think each instance of slow fall should be able to be replaced.

This is because of how the list of abilities you can get from qinggong monk are listed.

The list of abilities you can choose from gets bigger every two levels. 4th -> 6th -> 8th and so on.

But the stuff you can replace for qinggong abilities are at a much more random pace.

slow fall (4th), high jump (5th), wholeness of body (7th), diamond body (11th), abundant step (12th), diamond soul (13th), quivering palm (15th), timeless body (17th), tongue of the sun and moon (17th), empty body (19th), and perfect self (20th).

At level 6, 8, 10, 14, 16, 18 the list grows but there's nothing you can replace.
Why have more things available when it's impossible for the monk to get an ability at that level?

If you could replace multiple instances of slowfall it would fit perfectly, you'd have an ability to replace every even level - right when the list of abilities to choose from grew. I feel like this was intended, but it never got written down in the archtype's description.

Also, I feel like since the qinggong monk was supposed to be the monk caster archtype (It's in Ultimate magic..) it would have an okay, not great, but okay list of spells available. But as it's listed (without replacing each instance of slowfall) you learn 11 spells by level 20 by replacing quite a few of your class's unique functions, like your capstone, your Save or Die ability, and other stuff. This one is more about how I felt playing a quinggong monk and being dissatisfied at how few spells I could actually learn. Only Learning 3 spells by lvl 10 was pretty meh. (that's as many spells as any casting class knows at lvl 1)

(on a side note, you can replace Perfect Self at lvl 20....with Perfect Self? What the heck?)

Anyhow, I'd love to get some thoughts on the topic :D Thanks all.

Bump :3 tending to a few of my posts here, thought I'd try to get an answer for this too

Hey all. So I was thinking of making a character that was a kind of mix between a divine class and a rogue. I had initially thought of multi-classing paladin & ninja because of the Charisma stat helping both classes, but I felt it wouldn't work since sneaking & being assassin-y like the ninja isn't really part of the paladin code..

Then I thought perhaps Inquisitor/Ninja! It it the idea well, but the character became very weak due to mixing two 3/4 BAB classes together.

So I tried to come up with an inquisitor archtype that would fit the "Divine Avenger/punishment" shtick I was looking for for this character.

It's called the "Shadow of the Divine".

While the church may call regular inquisitors to hunt down heretics & expose evils for what they are, they call this kind after they've found the heresy and need it to be removed..permanently.

It is the divine assassin who hunts and punishes the enemies of his god, by using relatively unorthodox means.

So here are the archtype abilities. You'll notice that I've used some of the abilities from the heretic archtype. They fit so perfectly that I figured I'd just add them ^^;


  • Diminished Spellcasting
    The Shadow of the Divine can cast one fewer spell of each level than normal. If this reduces the number to 0, he may cast spells of that level only if his Wisdom allows bonus spells of that level.

  • Tied to the Darkness
    The inquisitor must take the darkness domain when choosing a domain. They however gain the bonus domain spells & domain spell slots in addition to the domain powers they normally receive.

  • Judgment (Su)
    A Shadow of the Divine gains the following judgment in addition to the normal list of inquisitor judgments.
    Concealment (Su): Each time the inquisitor using this judgment hits an opponent with a melee or ranged attack, she can use a move action attempt to create a diversion to hide (see the Stealth skill).

  • Lore of Escape (Ex)
    At 1st level, the inquisitor uses every trick she knows to escape those now pursuing her. She adds her Wisdom modifier on Bluff and Stealth skill checks in addition to the normal ability score modifiers.
    This ability replaces monster lore.

  • Hide Tracks (Ex)
    At 1st level, a inquisitor is adept at hiding her tracks. Creatures attempting to track her take a –5 penalty on rolls to find or follow her tracks.

  • Cloistered Stalker - (Sneakydivinethingee, lolcats) (Ex)
    At 2nd level when the inquisitor hits with an attack against a flat-footed or flanked foe within 30ft they deal bonus precision damage equal to their Wisdom Modifier +1 for every two inquisitor levels after 2nd. This bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit.
    This ability replaces Cunning Initiative.

  • Forbidden Scriptures
    Whenever the inquisitor would gain a bonus teamwork feat they may may instead choose a talent from the rogue talent list that they meet the prerequisites for. At 15th level they may instead choose from the advanced talents list.

    Do you think it adds too much? Perhaps too much at early levels?
    I think the flat damage bonus from Cloistered Stalker works well to balance it against sneak attack dice. Rogue sneak attack dice has a higher average damage, but this is a secondary class ability, so it's fine for it to do less damage.

    I thought Forbidden scriptures would be a really really cool was to allow the class a way to tailor it exactly to their character's needs. I do think it's a very good ability because of the options you have, but I dont think it's overpowered.

    Tell me what you think! I'd love to hear some suggestion, I'm not too fond of some of the abilities names either, so those are up to be changed too!

    Thanks for taking the time to read this :)
    - Habar414

  • So the Channel Smite ability says this

    Channel Smite:
    Before you make a melee attack roll, you can choose to spend one use of your channel energy ability as a swift action. If you channel positive energy and you hit an undead creature, that creature takes an amount of additional damage equal to the damage dealt by your channel positive energy ability. If you channel negative energy and you hit a living creature, that creature takes an amount of additional damage equal to the damage dealt by your channel negative energy ability. Your target can make a Will save, as normal, to halve this additional damage. If your attack misses, the channel energy ability is still expended with no effect.

    And then there's this

    Channel Force:
    When you channel energy to deal damage, you may choose to affect only a single target within 30 feet. In addition to dealing damage, if that single target fails its saving throw, you may pull or push the target up to 5 feet for every 2d6 points of channel energy damage you are capable of dealing.

    My question is if you can gain the benefits of Channel force when you use Channel Smite to do damage.
    To me it looks like it would work like this: you channel smite an undead (assuming you have positive channel) when you have the channel force feat, when you hit if they fail the will save they get pushed back too.

    Then if that works what about improved channel force and greater channel force?

    Improved Channel Force: When using Channel Force, you can affect all creatures in a 60-foot line or a 30-foot cone-shaped burst. You must choose to either push or pull all creatures within the affected area that fail their saves.[/spoiler]

    Greater Channel Force: When using Improved Channel Force, you can affect all creatures in a 30-foot-radius burst.

    Would the Channeled smite deal the channel damage and pushback in a cone (or line) based on the enemy you melee attack?

    Would the Greater channeled smite deal the channel damage & push back in a burst around your target?

    (With any of these would the selective channel feat let you pick what you hit with any of these?)

    Thanks for your time :)

    Hmm, I'm working on a Qinggong monk right now, and this particular problem has me going back and forth in a debate with my gm (a pleasent debate, no tempers :D) and I totally see it as Qinggong monk being able to replace each instance of slow fall (due to the way the available ki powers progress 4th->6th->8th.. with slowfall at 4th->6th->8th.., it just makes sense)

    He does bring up a good point, that normally an archtype ability replaces a class ability of equal power and slowfall 10ft. =/= quivering palm or any of the higher tier abilities.

    I get that this is an old topic but I'd love for it to be clarified.

    So I'm wondering what exactly can you use the sensei's "Mystic Wisdom" ability with.

    Mystic Wisdom:
    At 6th level, a sensei may use his advice ability when spending points from his ki pool to activate a class ability (using the normal actions required for each) in order to have that ability affect one ally within 30 feet rather than the sensei himself. At 12th level, a sensei may affect all allies within 30 feet rather than himself (spending points from his ki pool only once, not once for each target).

    At 12th level, a sensei may instead spend 1 point from his ki pool (as a swift action) while using advice to provide a single ally within 30 feet with evasion, fast movement, high jump, purity of body, or slow fall. At 18th level, a sensei may spend 2 points to grant one of the abilities listed above to all allies within 30 feet, or diamond body, diamond soul, or improved evasion to a single ally within 30 feet. These abilities function at the sensei’s level and last 1 round.

    This ability replaces the bonus feats at 6th, 12th, and 18th level.

    So as far as I can tell you can have any class ability that you spend ki to use and would normally affect you affect one ally (at lvl 6+) or all allies in 30ft (at lvl 12+)

    What about spell like abilities attainable through Qinggong Monk?
    I get that it would mean you could cast Barkskin or other buffing spells on allies instead of you, but what about more offensive spells such as scorching ray or hydraulic push? Hydraulic push I can understand not working because as part of the spell you target and cast the spell at an enemy, while with scorching ray the spell's affect creates rays and then after the spell is cast you choose the targets of the rays, (being a ranged touch spell & all)

    I'm also confused about where it says "may use his advice ability"
    do you actually use a round of the advice ability or was this just added for flavor?

    side note, affect/effect....when is which used @o@?

    Ah, alrighty, I do tend to overthink things often ^^;

    Thanks for your help with this :)

    Okay, so I would add the witch's HD to the familiar's current health? or would my old health replace my familiar's health.
    And since i'm lvl 11 that would mean I would have had the two +1 to a stat's at lvl 4 & 8, would I get to re-spend any points I previously spent on a physical stat? (since I get to keep my mental stats, but replace my physical stats)

    Saves too, I could understand Will saves carrying over from my old body (still the same mind) but what about the two physical saves?

    I was thinking about this and I was curious if anyone knows of any rules that explain this.

    So, say I'm a lvl 10 Beastbonded Witch and I recenlty got crushed by a Giant or somesuch.

    Whoosh I'm in my familiar's body now (a Nosoi, that cute psychopomp outsider). So say I continue the fight from there and manage to kill said giant. I gain enough xp to go from lvl 10 to lvl 11 from this giant (I guess he was a boss!).

    So, I'm in a new body, my old body is mangled beyond repair, and Ive gained a level.

    I've got no clue how to handle this.

    aye, a tip though, you can move between casting the touch spell and making the touch attack(or with spell strike your weapon attack)

    so if you're a square away from your enemy you can - cast touch spell, 5-foot step, then make your touch (weapon) attack.

    but thats just one thing you can do with it :3

    (would have been a shorter post but I couldn't get spoilers to work, is there a max number of spoilers per post?)

    Thanks, I've read that before (and it's a great guide!) but I get how to use touch spells just fine. It's just the particulars of how they work and as a result how they interact with other effects that I'm curious about.

    Like how touch spells work with the Metamagic feat "Bouncing spell".

    Bouncing Spell:
    Benefit: Whenever a bouncing spell targeting a single creature has no effect on its intended target (whether due to spell resistance or a successful saving throw) you may, as a swift action, redirect it to target another eligible creature within range. The redirected spell behaves in all ways as if its new target were the original target for the spell. Spells that affect a target in any way (including a lesser effect from a successful saving throw) may not be redirected in this manner.

    Spell Strike:
    At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell. If successful, this melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell.

    • Is the act of touching something part of the spell?

    • If so, if it would fail to effect the person due to a successful save or due to not beating it's SR, would you get an additional touch attack as part of the spell effecting another target in reach? (assuming there is an additional eligible target within reach)

      Relevant Bouncing Spell Clause:
      "Whenever a bouncing spell targeting a single creature has no effect on its intended target (whether due to spell resistance or a successful saving throw) you may, as a swift action, redirect it to target another eligible creature within range."

    • If so, then what of the Magus' Spellstrike ability? Say you hit with your weapon but the spell is resisted, would you be able to replace this second touch attack against a new target with a weapon attack?

      Relevant Spellstrike and Bouncing spell Clauses:
      "The redirected spell behaves in all ways as if its new target were the original target for the spell."
      "Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell."

    • Or would the damage from your weapon be counted as "being affected by the spell" because the initial attack granted by spellstrike is replacing a touch attack that is part of the spell and as such the weapon attack is part of the spell thus making the "bouncing spell" metamagic feat not work.

      Relevent Spellstrike and Bouncing Spell Causes:
      "Spells that affect a target in any way (including a lesser effect from a successful saving throw) may not be redirected in this manner."
      "Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell."

    _o_ I'm winded from just typing that....

    another note that I forgot

    In the Core rulebook it says "Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets. You can touch up to 6 willing targets as part of the casting, but all targets of the spell must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell."

    how does this rule interact with spells such as Chill touch or Frostbite? These spells allow you to touch multiple targets but according to this rule these spells would only last until the end of the round of when you cast the spell. Looking at either spell it's fairly obvious that when you have 13 available touches at lvl 13 you aren't expected to make all of them in one round in addition to casting the spell.

    Everything involving touch spells is just so vague and oddly worded that it creates these types of odd scenarios all over the place.

    Also, just noticed

    Spellstrike Description: "Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell."....

    "as part of the spell"

    PFS Combat Webpage: "To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject."

    "then touch the subject"

    ... D:

    [Edit] Clarifications :P & more stuffs..

    Hey all, fairly new to these forums, (been lurking and using posts here as advice for a few years though) and I figured I'd post my questions about touch spells.

    So I recently began playing a magus and as a result I began to delve into the mess that is touch spells.

    Yikes (it's gonna be a long one) (but I learned a lot from Grick and Ravingdork, thanks! :D)

    First I'll cover what I know then I'll go over my questions.
    Mainly these two sources hold all my known info about touch spells (not involving other class abilities)

    So, the core rulebook's notes on touch spells

    Touch Spells:
    You must touch a creature or object to affect it. A touch spell that deals damage can score a critical hit just as a weapon can. A touch spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit. Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets. You can touch up to 6 willing targets as part of the casting, but all targets of the spell must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell. If the spell allows you to touch targets over multiple rounds, touching 6 creatures is a full- round action.

    Up next notes on touch spells from the combat page on the Pathfinder Society website (this one's a bit long)

    Touch Spells in Combat:
    Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.

    Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The act of casting a spell, however, does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack as long as the spell deals damage. Your opponent's AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.

    Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.

    Now, My questions.

    Casting a touch spell: When you cast a touch spell how does the free touch attack provided by the touch spell work with the casting of the spell. Is the touch attack considered part of the spell or just how you deliver the spell? My initial thought was that according to the PFSociety info you cast the spell (the casting is done and anything after isn't related to the spell, just a separate action), then you use the free action allowed by casting a touch spell to touch the target (this action's result is the activation of the spell, but is not part of the spell)

    But if it is separate from the spell then why does the spell descriptor say the target of the spell is "creature (or creatures) touched"? (I understand that it is probably there so the player understands how to use the spell, that they have to touch someone, but it's confusing to me still :X" So, this brings me to my next question..

    Target of a touch spell: This really confuses me. So, it's my understanding that with most offensive spells that have a target you actually need a target to cast the spell. To cast "Daze" you need a hapless Kobold or something to target for the spell to work. With touch spells the descriptor says "target" but the initial effect is that the spell manifests in your hand and remains there indefinitely until discharged or dismissed. Can you cast a touch spell with no target?
    Say you wake up in the woods alone and want to carry around a "Slay Living" in your hand all day (however impractical) do you need to target yourself to cast it?

    And on the topic of Slay living it brings me to another note on touch spells

    Never Constant Touch Spell Descriptions: What the heck. So in the spell "slay living" it says in the spell description "You must succeed on a melee touch attack to touch the target." so....the touch attack is part of the spell now?....

    Another odd example
    Chill touch Vs. Frostbite

    Each spell has the benefit of being able to affect creatures multiple times/affect multiple creatures. Each spell says at the end of it's description "You can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level." - the exact same phrase - But, the target of chill touch is "creature or creatures touched (up to one/level)" referring to that "one touch/lvl" line, while frostbite's target line says "creature touched".

    So the rules for how players use touch spells are fairly vague compared to the rules for other types of actions and that causes confusion. Then on top of that there seems to be a real lack of consistency when it come to how touch spells work (even extremely similar spells).

    All in all I'm able to get by just fine with what info I have with my magus and I guess it's not much of an issue, but it'd be great to get some concrete rulings on how casting touch spells/making touch attacks works.

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