Gulthor's page

Good morning all,

Our group is going to be starting Gatewalkers soon, and I'll be playing my first PF2E character.

My concept for the character is a support/4E-style defender. I'm repurposing an old PF1E Oradin concept that I never got to play.

We're using free archetype, and we're not stressed about using free archetype to build extremely optimized characters.

My teammates will be:
* A poppet Construct Summoner with the Familiar Master archetype (she'll be a tiny poppet familiar, a small poppet character, and a medium poppet eidolon.)
* A human nephilim Faith's Flamekeeper witch, leaning towards the Blessed One archetype.
* A human Way of the Drifter gunslinger with the Cavalier archetype.

I'll be playing an adopted (by gnomes) human Redeemer Champion of Shyka the Many.

My plan is to take Shield Ally and Everstand Stance to boost my Shield's hardness as high as I can, then pair that with Shield Warden and eventually Shield of Reckoning. I'm also looking to take Deity's Domain (Time) for a long-range reaction to delay incoming damage to my allies so we can reposition for my Redeemer reaction before the hit goes through.

Along with that, I'm thinking of starting at +3 STR and +3 CHA to provide additional support with Bon Mot and Intimidating Glare (IG provided by the Total Power Background.)

All that's pretty well settled and I feel really comfortable with it.

Where I'm worried that I might be hurting myself is with my Archetype choice, and I wanted to run it past some more experienced 2E players: I'd like to take the Witch Dedication with the Spinner of Threads patron to further represent my character's relationship with Shyka the Many. I'd be picking up Basic Lesson - Lesson of Life for a long-ranged focus heal spell.

It's also "important" for my character to have a familiar, which I could easily get with Animal Accomplice from my Ancestry feat, but I've really fallen in love with the idea of taking Animal Elocutionist now that it's a 1st level feat - so Witch Dedication also gets me the familiar that I want (I don't want to take the Familiar Master since another character in the party is taking it.)

So, how badly would I be screwing myself with a
STR +3 / Dex +1 / Con +0 / Int +2 / Wis +0 / Cha +3 starting array?

I could swap the +1 from Dex to Con easily enough, but I won't have a high enough Str to use Full Plate until 5th level. I am planning on picking up the Toughness feat, and I'll be boosting Con at 5 and 10, but would I be making a blunder by starting with a +2 Int? The extra languages seem like they could be handy with Bon Mot, same with being able to use Bon Mot on animals with Animal Elocutionist. But is the extra hardness on my shield and the fast healing focus spell enough to cover the hit point loss?

Thanks!

Good afternoon all,

I have a question about Paired Opportunists that I wasn't able to find an answer to with my Google-fu.

I have a player who is wondering if the provision that

Enemies that provoke attacks of opportunity from your ally also provoke attacks of opportunity from you so long as you threaten them (even if the situation or an ability would normally deny you the attack of opportunity).

allows a character to exceed their normal limit on attacks of opportunity per round. I had initially taken this to mean a number things (such as allowing you to take an AoO while taking total defense), but I have to admit that the question of whether it allows you to exceed your AoO limit (provided you meet the other conditions) has me stumped.

My knee-jerk reaction is to say that it wouldn't, but the more I read the text, the less certain I am with my initial reaction.

Thanks, Rules Forums!

I have a question about the interaction between the feat Boon Companion and the Chosen One paladin - particularly:

The abilities of your familiar are calculated as though your class were 4 levels higher

And

True Form (Ex): At 7th level, a chosen one’s familiar reveals its true form, transforming into an outsider improved familiar that matches the chosen one’s patron’s alignment (typically an arbiter, a cassisian, a harbinger, or a silvanshee, but potentially any lawful neutral, lawful good, or neutral good outsider familiar depending on the patron). The familiar gains the change shape universal monster ability if it doesn’t already have it, which it can use at will to transform into its original form or back to its true form.

If I was a Paladin 4/Oracle 3, would Boon Companion allow me to gain the benefits of True Form?

Ran into a fun interaction the other day, and I'm curious what people's opinions are.

One of our players is going to be playing a human fighter (Eldritch Guardian/Mutation Warrior) in our upcoming Giantslayer campaign.

His first three feats (level 1, human bonus, level 3) are going into the possessed hand feat chain, and then at 4th, he'll be getting access to the optional Combat Stamina system:

The question we've run into is how his familiar should interact with Combat Stamina.

Now, it's a combat feat, so it does get shared with the familiar, we're fine with that.

But the wording "share" has our group in a minor disagreement, with one side suggesting that the hand hasn't actually been granted its own copy of the feat, and therefor should have to draw from its master's stamina pool. This strikes me as a valid interpretation, but it's not clear how it should work.

What if it was a different feat with a daily limit, like Stunning Fist? Should those uses also be shared between the master and familiar, or should they each get their own allotment?

As I said, I'm curious what others think on the subject.

The Harrow Character Generation: Attribute Generation Through Fortune-Telling

A pair of large recent threads in the last several weeks have focused a lot of attention on the point buy system. Discussion about the merits of point buy versus rolling and of the different point buy values has been lively, and sparked interesting observations and debate on both “sides”.

This got me thinking back to when our group made the switch from rolling to point buy; the impetus was a rolled character that ended up having near-perfect stats (four 18s and two other 17s - a statically unlikely outcome, but it happened.) The result was a very imbalanced party and a even little bit of unfounded resentment. I don't think anyone else in the group broke thirty point buy worth of stats.

Around the same time, Paizo released an article in Dragon magazine #346 about using Wizard’s recently-released Three Dragon Ante deck to perform a “reading” that would result in randomly-generated stats using the point buy system.

This turned out to be the method that got us to embrace point buy. It wasn't always perfect, but we ended up enjoying the ways that readings would encourage us to break out in different roles based on the results of the spread, and we found that we really enjoyed the more balanced nature of point buy.

This memory struck me as a eureka moment with regards to Pathfinder and the obvious potential use of The Harrow deck in place of Three Dragon Ante.

I pulled out the old Dragon article and began breaking down the results to see how the method ticked. I was shocked to discover a glaring number of issues with the system as it was originally presented. Due to the way the 3DA deck worked, it contained 60 generic dragon cards and 10 unique cards. The unique cards produced exciting effects depending on if they landed in certain parts of the spread. The problem was, since the other 60 cards were 10 suits of 6 dragons, there were only so many possible results, and many of them were heavily-weighted, appearing 6/70 times (or more!) whereas the unique effects only had a 1/70 chance of occurring, and that was assuming they landed in just the right spot.

I felt certain that The Harrow deck could handle this better. I spent the last several days breaking down the possible outcomes for each location in the spread, making sure that every one of the Harrow’s fifty-four cards had the opportunity for a strange interaction depending on whether it landed in a certain place, spreading those unique effects across the Harrow and balancing (as best I possibly could) the various effects. The above link is the result of those efforts, and in my opinion, it's very exciting.

Though I did a lot of re-balancing and reimagining, I by no means make any claim to this being an original work. The article was originally written by Craig Shackleton, and I lifted large portions of that article whole cloth in order to put the above together. Additionally, the Harrow suit and card descriptions were lifted directly from Pathfinderwiki.com.

For those interested, I'll add a lot of my design thought processes below in a spoiler.

In the meantime, I encourage you to check out the above-linked article and to test it out. Who knows? Maybe you'll find a new attribute generation method that you'll use for your next game - or even for many more to come.

-Gulthor

I always get a kick out of reading other people's houserules, so I figured I'd contribute to the voyeurism.

Gulthor's Houserule Roundup

I'm perfectly aware that many will consider a lot of these changes pretty over-the-top, especially my two favorites: adding Con score to hit points and my homebrew monk rebuild.

(It's probably worth noting that enemies get to enjoy a lot of these benefits, too.)

I posted this thread awhile ago, but in retrospect, it's much too wordy, which I suspect turned some people away.

I'm still interested in what others think, though, so I figured I'd rephrase and TLDR my original question:

What do you think a paladin of Imbrex or Magdh would be like?

I'm terribly interested in the concept of being a paladin of a being as ineffable as one of the Eldest (for story reasons tying into taking the Fey Foundling feat - I want to play it up.)

I've been doing quite a lot of brainstorming about character concepts for our upcoming Strange Aeons campaign, and one I've really become quite fond of is the idea of playing an Oradin. We haven't had anyone play one yet, and the concept is right up my alley - I love playing tanks and supports, and the Oradin really delivers.

I have the mechanical side of the build figured out, but I've been giving a lot of thought to the character herself.

I'll obviously be taking Fey Foundling, like every good Oradin should, but I didn't want it to just be a feat, I really wanted that story to be an integral part of her character. I'll even be taking the mechanically terrifying Fey-taken drawback to further push that concept, along with the Adopted trait.

For the longest time, my concept was that she'd been found alone in the woods by a family of gnomes, and been taken in. I love the idea of playing a pure innocent in a horror campaign, so that's what she'd be - a wide-eyed, spirited follower of Shelyn (who seemed a nice common ground for her gnome parents and my half-elven paladin.)

As I read more into the First World, however, a more complex story took hold:

One or both of Ilessa's (Ilessa being my character) parents (probably her elven parent) bought something at the Witch Market years before she was born, with the promised payment of their first-born child (*classic* fairy tale trope.) The fate of Ilessa's parents is unknown, and up to the GM if he decides to use it.

In turn, the Witch Market sold the half-elven child, and she was purchased by a concerned gnome family that still lived in the First World, at a steep price; all of her adopted father's colour. Bleaching is a death sentence for gnomes, so it serves to show an example of how she grew to see and appreciate Goodness and sacrifice through her father. Obviously, half-elven children mature much faster than gnome children do, so her adopted father yet lives, though with few years left. Ilessa's journey back to the material plane, I realized, would be a quest to save her adopted parent as well as an opportunity to possibly find her birth parents. (Both of these major events can be assumed to occur post-campaign as a result of her in-campaign questing should the GM decline to use them.)

It's here that I realized that in this version of her tale, one so steeped in fairy fantasy and based wholly in the First World, worship of Shelyn seemed very out of place. Wouldn't she instead worship one of the Eldest?

Two of the Eldest are available for paladins to worship: Imbrex and Magdh. Both are fascinating, and each very different. Magdh is suprisingly approachable, so my first thought was that perhaps she went to Magdh in search of answers, and Magdh advised her to search the Material Plane (plus, how often does a paladin get to *MEET* their god?) On the other hand, Imbrex is the god of statutes and endings, and as the god of endings, is very appropriate not only for her leaving the First World to begin a new journey, but also is very campaign appropriate. And it seems just as reasonable for her to have gone to Imbrex personally, even though they're more ineffable.

She'll be a Chosen One, so a little hedgehog familiar for Imbrex sounds adorable (Imbrex's favored animals are hibernating animals), but it's not especially a problem either way.

I was wondering what people's thoughts were about which of the two would be more interesting, as well as the broader question of:

What would a paladin of the Eldest be like?

The recent couple of PrC threads have been pretty interesting, but I thought I'd throw out a slightly different PrC question:

What's your favorite Prestige Class and why?

Doesn't have to be good or optimized, just wondering what PrC's out there really call out to people.

Are there any that you'd love to play, but the optimizer in you won't allow you to? (That'd be Mystic Theurge for me.)

What's been the most effective Prestige Class you've used? How did you use it? What was it that it offered that made it better for your character than just continuing in your base class?

For me, Hellknight Signifer is probably my favorite, though a lot of that has to do with the character and the campaign (a hellknight opposing the hordes of the Abyss in Wrath of the Righteous.) Mostly, what it offered over continuing as cleric was legitimacy for my character's campaign goals, which was to found a new Hellknight order (the Order of the Lesion in the Worldwound.) Taking HKS also granted some nifty abilities that were thematically appropriate and more than made up for the loss of improving domain powers (Assiduous Gaze, in particular, is just amazing.)

How much time do you have to raise a dead samsaran character?

Their cycle of rebirth and reincarnation is a clear aspect of their race, but is not mechanically defined as far as I can find. It certainly seems as though it is intended to occur sooner than once every 200 years (the maximum reach of a level 20 cleric.) Once a samsaran's soul has reincarnated, one would assume that it is no longer eligible for resurrection magic.

I suppose you could say that the soul gets to decide for itself when to reincarnate (and once it has done so, essentially refuses any future resurrection attempts, as a dead creature is allowed to do.) That probably makes the most sense, but where would such a soul reside in the meantime?

Most characters are assumed to be judged and sent on to their final resting place, but a samsaran specifically rejects that cycle, so where is their soul while waiting for a call of resurrection? Hanging out in the Boneyard, perhaps?

I've been tinkering around with the idea of playing a Spellslinger Wizard for Strange Aeons (something about a trenchcoat-wearing, gun-toting wizard just seems awfully appropriate,) and I've been browsing through my PrC options, since there's absolutely no reason to stay in wizard.

I had been looking at Evangelist, since the bump to d8, 3/4 BAB, extra skills, etc is quite attractive for the pretty reasonable cost of slowing down spellcasting by one level.

But last night, I stumbled upon the Soul Warden, which is not only thematically appropriate for a campaign that is likely to feature the Necronimicon, but also just seems to be really good.

In particular, I've been looking over Channel Casting again and again because it just doesn't even seem right; unless I'm missing something, you don't even have to convert a prepared spell slot. You just expend a channel energy use and (at 10th level) can heal or breath of life , which just seems like a really nice boost for an arcane character, even if it doesn't come online until level 15 (and the other spells you get aren't half bad, either.)

Are there any other good options out there I might be similarly missing? I'm very hesitant about the idea of slowing down spellcasting more than a level, but I would consider it if the payoff is good enough.

My first choice was to take this character into Mystic Theurge, but unless I'm allowed to use the Spellcasting Guild rules from Inner Sea Magic to pick up Esoteric and Eclectic Training, it doesn't seem like it'd be worth it. Of course, if I'm able to do that, MT becomes my top pick without question.

In an upcoming campaign, I'm considering playing an Oradin (it'll be a first for our group), but I'd like to double-check that my build looks solid enough - in particular, it's the level-by-level progression that has me feeling uncertain.

The build:

Half-elf Chosen One/Hospitaler Paladin*/Life Oracle (Legalistic)

(*our group has ruled that archetypes which modify the same ability in ways that don't interfere/conflict may be combined. Since Chosen One delays the level at which you first get Smite Evil and Hospitaler further delays Smite Evil progression, I have the thumbs-up to use both.)

Stats (20 pt buy)

S 16
D 12
C 14
I 7
W 10
Ch 15+2

Deity
Sheylyn

Traits
Adopted (Gnome)
* Animal Friend

Feats
1. Fey Foundling
3. Racial Heritage (Gnome)
5. Clarifying Channel (Sheylyn)

Level Progression
1. Paladin
2. Paladin
3. Oracle (Life Link)
4. Paladin
5. Paladin
6. Oracle
7. Oracle (Channel Energy)
8. Oracle or Paladin
9+ Paladin

Favored Class Benefits
1. +1/2 level lay on hands healing (elf)
3. +1/2 level curse progression (gnome)
(And continuing to advance those FCB for the rest of the character's career)

Racial Alternates
* +2 Will (Replaces Adaptability)

Key Gear to Acquire:
Phylactery of Positive Channeling
Boots of the Earth
Bracers of the Merciful Knight

Concept
The concept for the character is that she's a pure innocent: a sweet, naive girl with a heart of gold. She was found in the woods as a child by gnomes, worships Sheylyn, loves animals, has a talking thrush familiar - your basic Disney princess. She's also tough-as-nails, no-nonsense, honest to a fault, and fiercely protective of her friends - so, basically your modern Disney princess.

I realize I could afford to tank her Wisdom instead of Intelligence given how massive her Will save is going to end up (since both Paladin and Oracle have Favored Will saves, Divine Grace, alternate half-elf, Emissary familiar gives her a reroll, Legalistic lets her mind search for loopholes, etc), but this is going to be a character for Strange Aeons, so the Will stacking is kind of intentional.

It seems like the build doesn't *really* come online until about level 8, hence the general unease mentioned very early on (it's not a problem if that's just how the build works, I just wasn't sure if I was missing something.)

Thanks in advance for the view and feedback.

Good morning,

I just had a chance to check things out, and noticed that I can no longer use the Pathfinder RPG link to view all messages under that heading.

This was, in my opinion, one of the best features of the forum. I hope that this functionality will return, or am I perhaps missing it somewhere? I think it was one of the big community-builders of the message boards, encouraging people to pop in and check out threads in subforums they might not otherwise visit.

Thanks for taking the time to listen to our feedback. Not to speak for others, but I wouldn't hesitate to say that I'm sure there are others who feel the same.

I recently realized that for as long as I've been playing 3.x, across all the builds and characters, I've never actually seen someone play a Mystic Theurge in one of our groups. The idea caught hold, and I began looking into how a MT could be built in Pathfinder.

In 3.5, Precocious Apprentice and Practiced Spellcasting made MT a fairly viable option, so naturally I wondered what PF might offer instead.

Early MT threads linked to the now-errata'd FAQ that allowed SLA's to qualify as spellcasting for PrC requirements, but newer threads instead pointed to Inner Sea Magic and the Spellcasting Guild rules, which grant a character Eclectic and Esoteric training. It also seemed pretty well agreed that while eclectic training was a nice little boost, Esoteric Training was off-the-charts - except for Mystic Theurges, who really needed it.

However, despite being a bit of an optimizer, the thought of me being able to get these two perks (on top of other nice benefits) for a combined total of something like 500-100g seems terribly imbalanced: a common suggestion was to make them feats (and I agree that two feats for an already feat-starved Mystic Theurge is a good price for the spellcasting benefit.)

So, with that in mind, I went about converting these perks into feats, also following-up with the idea that esoteric training should really only be available to the Mystic Theurge (and so limited it by making the Combined Spells class feature a prerequisite.)

I'd love some feedback before proposing these feats to our group.

Eclectic Training

Prerequisites: Ability to cast spells, Knowledge (any) 3 ranks, Spellcraft 3 ranks

Benefit: Choose one spellcasting class you have at least one level in: you increase your effective caster level in that class (including the number of spells you know and can cast per day) by one, to a maximum caster level equal to your total Hit Dice.

Esoteric Training

Prerequisites: Combined Spells class feature, Eclectic Training, Knowledge (any) 7 ranks, Spellcraft 7 ranks

Benefit: The bonus to caster level you gain from Eclectic Training increases to three (but is still limited by your total Hit Dice).

Select a second spellcasting class you have at least one level in: you increase your effective caster level in that class (including the number of spells you know and can cast per day) by one, to a maximum caster level equal to your total Hit Dice.

I have a player who, in an upcoming game, would like to play a devoted/Varisian pilgrim cleric of Cayden who uses Charisma as her casting stat for character concept reasons.

After giving this a fair bit of thought, I'm extremely inclined to allow it, as it frankly seems like a strict downgrade from having Wisdom - an excellent stat - as your primary casting stat.

However, I'm curious if there are any unintended implications of this that perhaps I'm missing - the character won't be multiclassing, and intends to progress into the Exalted PrC.

(We're aware of the various Charisma-based casting class alternative options, but the player specifically wants to be a cleric. For what it's worth, I also know the player well enough that I can say with absolute certainty the player isn't trying to sneak anything cheesy or broken in through the back door. He just wants to play a cleric that uses her charm and force of personality as the stat that connects her to Cayden.)

Our group is in the early stages of prepping for playing a drunken party in Jade Regent, and our last player has been giving some thought to playing a Swashbuckler (currently we have a drunken master, a drunken rager, a devout pilgrim cleric of Cayden Cailean, and an alcohol-themed alchemist.)

This little gem of a fighting style caught my attention, and I'm sure is something that will push our last player over the edge into wanting to play a Swashbuckler.

My question is, what are some good ways to optimize use of this amazing fighting style?

It seems as though Swashbucklers are often reliant on keeping their off-hand empty and are heavily discouraged from two-weapon fighting (which I understand are for DPR reasons.)

As the DM, would it be crazy to lift that restriction to not apply when the off-hand attack action is being used for non-damaging attacks? The most "clever" thing I can think of would be to get a defending tankard to use with the dirty trick to get a little AC bump, but that's still inferior to just using a magic buckler, especially since it's also applying a penalty to MH attack rolls and is requiring a feat for that penalty to not be crippling.

I'm already comfortable with allowing it to work with Slashing Grace, since Slashing Grace calls out exceptions to the "nothing in the off-hand" rule, including bucklers which the tankard replaces.

Would it be insane to lift the restriction *entirely* with the tankard, since it wouldn't qualify for Precise Strike or Slashing Grace bonus damage *anyway* (and would therefor be a very minor DPR bump when being used to attack and deal damage?)

Thanks for your thoughts. He's a newer player (compared to the rest of the group) and I want him to be able to get a lot of enjoyment from his character.

The alchemist is probably my favorite class in Pathfinder. There's so much to it, and its archetypes all dramatically change the flavor and personality of the class, even though builds tend to gravitate towards bomb or Hyde builds. That's okay, and there's plenty of exploration to be done within those general frameworks, but I always had the sense that somewhere within the alchemist was a more utility-based build.

Recently, I was inspired by another thread in which JiCi and UnArcaneElection mentioned wanting an artificer and suggesting perhaps it could be made as an Alchemist archetype. When I first looked at the alchemist way back when, I immediately thought of the artificer, but I'd shelved that thought.

At work today, my mind went into overdrive, and the pieces just started falling into place.

So, here's my first draft at a Tinkerer archetype for alchemist. Our group immediately latched on to it, and I'm modestly hopeful that perhaps someone else out there will love it, too.

Tinkerer (Alchemist Archetype)

Unlike a traditional alchemist, a tinkerer is fascinated with mechanical and wondrous objects rather than focusing his attention on alchemical reactions. Tinkerers tirelessly work on creating small trinkets and knickknacks into which they imbue their extracts.

Class Skills: A tinkerer gains Knowledge (Engineering) as a class skill. This replaces Knowledge (Nature).

Tinker (Su): Rather than the typical potion-like extracts most alchemists create, a tinkerer instead imbues his extracts into objects, which he can then later trigger as a spell trigger item. Tinkerers tend to choose or create objects that are thematically appropriate for the extract stored in them. For instance, a tinkerer might choose a pocket watch as the object in which to store his haste extract, or attach wheels to his boots to later trigger an expeditious retreat. The tinkerer chooses the trigger that will activate his extract at the time he imbues it into an object. A tinkerer’s extracts function otherwise as an alchemist's extracts. A tinkerer can select the infusion discovery to allow others to trigger his imbued objects, even if they would not normally be able to do so.

Note that since a tinkerer’s extracts are imbued into objects, they may not be able to interact with certain feats or other items that traditionally work with extracts (such as poisoner’s gloves, medlances, or the mythic two-fisted drinker feat.)

Additionally, when using Spellcraft to create a magical item, a tinkerer gains a competence bonus equal to his alchemist level on the Spellcraft check. In addition, a tinkerer can use Spellcraft to identify wondrous items as if using detect magic. He must hold the item for 1 round to make the check.

This ability alters Alchemy.

Crafting Savant (Ex): A tinkerer’s alchemist levels count as spellcaster levels for the purpose of qualifying for crafting feats. A tinkerer can use extracts in the creation of magical items as though they were spells.

This ability replaces Poison Use and Swift Poisoning.

Craft Wondrous Item (Ex): At 1st level, a tinkerer gains Craft Wondrous Item as a bonus feat.

This ability replaces Brew Potion.

Clockwork Companion (Ex): A tinkerer has created a mechanical familiar to assist him with his work. It functions as a familiar with the valet archetype, except that it is a construct instead of a magical beast. Treat the tinkerer’s alchemist level as his effective wizard level.

This ability replaces Mutagen and Swift Alchemy. A tinkerer cannot select the mutagen discovery.

Expert Activator (Ex): A tinkerer adds half his alchemist level (rounded down) as a competence bonus on Use Magic Device checks.

When a tinkerer uses a spell trigger item that deals hit point damage, he adds his Intelligence modifier to the damage dealt, though no more than once to any given target.

This ability replaces Poison Resistance, Poison Immunity, and Throw Anything.

Destructive Blast (Su): A tinkerer can imbue objects with charges of raw, destructive energy, which he can later trigger to blast his foes. A tinkerer can imbue one or more objects with a total number of charges per day equal to his class level plus his Intelligence modifier. A tinkerer typically imbues this energy into a wand, rod, or staff, but like his extracts, he can imbue these charges into any object.

Using a charge of destructive blast is a standard action that provokes attacks of opportunity. The blast is a ray with a 20’ range increment.

The ray requires a ranged touch attack to hit and deals 1d6 points of fire damage + additional damage equal to the alchemist's Intelligence modifier. The damage of a tinkerer’s destructive blast increases by 1d6 points at every odd-numbered alchemist level.

A tinkerer can modify his blasts with discoveries and extracts that modify bombs, but since a destructive blast does not splash, some discoveries or extracts may have no effect.

This ability replaces Bombs.

Hey everyone,

Our group is going to be playing a drunken party in an upcoming adventure (Jade Regent,) and as I was researching I discovered the drinking rules to be not only woefully inadequate, but also potentially crippling.

Clearly I understand the terrible real-world consequences of alcohol abuse, but we're going for a lighthearted fantasy about a bunch of tavern regulars who find out Ameiko is an Empress and decide it's their duty to escort their favorite bar owner to far-off lands.

We'll have a drunken monk and a drunken barbarian in the party, as well as a "Friar Tuck"-like halfling cleric of Cayden,and an Alchemist whose brews are all alcohol-themed (magic beer extracts, molotov cocktail bombs, mutagen is just his "special brew" that turns him into a mean, fightin' drunk, etc.)

The reason drinking rules are important is to offer a balance to the drunken monk and barbarian, to place limits on an otherwise potentially unlimited resource pool.

So here's what I came up with, based on research into BAC levels by weight (lightly converring weight categories to Con) and the various stages of drunkenness:

Tipsy:

You become tipsy after consuming a number of alcoholic beverages equal to 1 + your Con modifier.

A tipsy character gains a +1 alchemical bonus on all Str- and Cha-based skill and ability checks, but takes a -1 penalty on all Dex- and Wis-based skill and ability checks.

Buzzed:

You become buzzed after consuming an additional number of alcoholic beverages equal to 1 + your Con modifier.

The bonuses and penalties to skill and ability checks granted by being tipsy increase to 2.

Drunk:

You become drunk after consuming an additional number of alcoholic beverages equal to 1 + your Con modifier.

A drunk character is sickened. Any effect that would cause a drunk character to be sickened causes them to be nauseated for the same duration instead. The bonuses and penalties from being buzzed continue to apply.

Stupor:

You enter a drunken stupor after consuming a number of alcoholic beverages equal to 1 + your Con modifier.

A character in a stupor is fatigued. Any effect that would cause a character in a stupor to become fatigued causes them to be exhausted instead. The bonuses and penalties from being drunk continue to apply.

Blackout:

A character blacks out after consuming an additional number of alcoholic beverages equal to 1 + his Cin modifier.

A character in a blackout is unconscious, loses all memories from the past hour, and is unable to make new memories for an hour. If somehow brought conscious, a character in a blackout is nauseated and exhausted.

Sobering Up:

Every hour, a character is treated as having consumed one fewer alcoholic beverage.

Poison Resistance and Immunity:

A character with poison resistance is treated as having a higher Constitution score equal to the amount of their poison resistance for the purpose of determining how much alcohol they can consume.

A character with poison immunity is immune to the effects of alcohol, both beneficial and detrimental.

Characters with a low Constitution:

Whenever a character with a negative Con modifier consumes an alcoholic beverage, they are treated as having consumed an additional number of alcoholic beverages equal to their negative modifier.

Hangovers:

After a night (or day) of drinking, a character risks a hangover the following morning.

The character must make a Fort save upon waking based on how inebriated they were.

A character who was tipsy must succeed on a DC 5 Fort save.

A character who was buzzed must succeed on a DC 10 Fort save.

A character who was drunk must succeed on a DC 15 Fort save.

A character who was in a stupor must succeed on a DC 20 Fort save.

A character who was in a blackout must succeed on a DC 25 Fort save.

For each hour spent drinking beyond the first, increase the DC by 1.

A character may add their poison resistance to this Fort save.

A character who succeeds on this save suffers no ill effects from their carousing.

A character who fails this save is sickened and fatigued for 1d4 hours.

A character who fails this save by 5 or more is nauseated and exhausted for 1d4 hours and then sickened and fatigued for 1d4 hours after that.

A character who engages in habitual drinking may develop a minor addiction.

I'm getting ready to play in an Iron Gods campaign, and decided on playing a goblin alchemist with the grenadier archetype.

Little did I know what a rules clusterbomb I'd be jumping into! In trying to find more information on how my little mad bomber would operate, I found dozens of (helpful and useful, but argumentative) threads that gave snippets and tidbits of information, but sadly never came to much of an agreement - but looking at them together seems to draw the loose threads together, and possibly comes to something resembling an official answer.

So, I thought it would be useful to compile everything in one spot and seek the wisdom of the forums, as well as perhaps give future players like myself a one-stop thread for all their alchemical weapons needs.

Actions & Alchemy

The first and most contentious rules question I found surrounding alchemical splash weapons was with their interaction with Quick Draw. Most of the contention is due to the clause that states

Alchemical items, potions, scrolls, and wands cannot be drawn quickly using this feat.

So, are alchemical splash weapons (such as Alchemist's Fire) weapons or are they alchemical items?

I'll start by stating that there's absolutely no clear answer that I've found. My opinion is that they're weapons first, and would qualify for Quick Draw, and that the alchemical items clause refers to alchemical remedies and alchemical tools, which function more similarly to potions and wands (the other items excluded from Quick Draw.) But I think that either interpretation can be successfully argued, and I think either conclusion could be correct.

But following are some reasons why I think that they should qualify:

Non-Alchemical Splash Weapons

There aren't very many of them out there, but non-alchemical splash weapons would certainly be able to be drawn with Quick Draw. Holy Water is the most obvious, but Stingchuck is another; this could support an argument that alchemical splash weapons are splash weapons first, and alchemical items second.

(As a fair point, some could argue that Holy Water is actually an alchemical item, due to its inclusion on the list of Alchemical Weapons in Ultimate Equipment, despite not being created through alchemy. Stingchuck stands, though.)

Regardless, resorting to "realistic" reasons as arguments for rules interpretations is general pretty poor form; but there is something to be said for being able to draw a 9 lb skull-full-of-bugs splash weapon with Quick Draw as argument for being able to draw an Alchemist's Fire with Quick Draw.

Drawing a Weapon, Retrieving a Stored Item, and Preparing to Throw a Splash Weapon

This is another contentious bit of rules - unfortunately, the Core Rulebook lists under the Full-Round Action table, the action "Prepare to throw splash weapon."

Fortunately, this rule was actually addressed and clarified to state that it only applies to splash weapons that are not already-prepared, though it does also specify that this action is separate from the action needed to throw it.

Retrieve a Stored Object states that:

Moving or manipulating an item is usually a move action.

This includes retrieving or putting away a stored item, picking up an item, moving a heavy object, and opening a door. Examples of this kind of action, along with whether they incur an attack of opportunity, are given in Table: Actions in Combat.

Draw or Sheathe a Weapons states:

Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat, or putting it away so that you have a free hand, requires a move action. This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands. If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item. (Emphasis mine)

If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move. If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, you can draw two light or one-handed weapons in the time it would normally take you to draw one.

Drawing ammunition for use with a ranged weapon (such as arrows, bolts, sling bullets, or shuriken) is a free action.

Alchemical Splash Weapons are clearly weapon-like objects, and easy reach can be established with items such as the Bandolier, so at the very least, they qualify for the draw while moving clause. (Bandoliers are otherwise completely useless, as they offer no benefit compared to just having the item in another container - but they are cool. As a note, this does not offer any further insight into the Quick Draw debate above, as it also references wands, which are also clearly disallowed by Quick Draw.)

The difference between the draw a weapon action versus retrieve a stored item action is whether or not the action provokes an attack of opportunity - drawing a weapon does not, retrieving an item does.

But, hey, at least you can draw your alchemist's fire and/or wand without provoking and/or while moving, so that's useful no matter what.

Grenadier's Alchemical Weapon

Alchemical Weapon (Su)

At 2nd level, a grenadier can infuse a weapon or piece of ammunition with a single harmful alchemical liquid or powder, such as alchemist’s fire or sneezing powder, as a move action. This action consumes the alchemical item, but transfers its effect to the weapon in question.

The alchemical item takes full effect on the next creature struck by the weapon, but does not splash, spread, or otherwise affect additional targets. Any extra damage added is treated like bonus dice of damage, and is not doubled on a critical hit. The alchemical treatment causes no harm to the weapon treated, and wears off 1 minute after application if no blow is struck. At 6th level, a grenadier can use her alchemical weapon ability as a swift action. At 15th level, this ability becomes a free action.

The big rules contention that comes up with regards to the Alchemical Weapon Grenadier feature is whether or not you need to have the alchemical liquid or powder in-hand or if the action listed covers the entire process.

Sadly, I couldn't find an official answer on this. Like the Quick Draw question, above, there's plenty of justification for either interpretation. Certainly the fact that it calls out the action required would seem to cover the entire process of retrieving & applying the alchemical substance, like the actions required for the alchemist's bombs or extracts, but it unfortunately does not specifically state that.

There's also contention surrounding whether or not this effect would allow you to apply your Int mod to damage, per the alchemist's Throw Anything class feature. To me, it seems clear that you would as long as the alchemical substance infused would normally get that benefit due to the statement that "the alchemical item takes full effect" - a splash weapon does not actually have to splash in order to be considered a splash weapon, and one of the effects of it being a splash weapon is that you apply your Int mod to damage. It is important to note that this damage is considered "bonus dice of damage", so it is considered to be part of the same source as the weapon or ammunition it was applied to - this could be important for determining its effectiveness with regards to damage reduction, energy resistance, and/or hardness, unlike...

Explosive Missile (Discovery)

As a standard action, the alchemist can infuse a single arrow, crossbow bolt, or one-handed firearm bullet with the power of his bomb, load the ammunition, and shoot the ranged weapon. He must be proficient with the weapon in order to accomplish this. When the infused ammunition hits its target, it deals damage normally and detonates as if the alchemist had thrown the bomb at the target. If the explosive missile misses, it does not detonate.

This can be a lot of fun to couple with the Grenadier's Alchemical Weapon, above. Important to note, however, is that this is a separate source of damage, since it states that it "deals damage normally...as if the alchemist had thrown the bomb." This could be beneficial or detrimental, as it allows the target to potentially apply energy resistance/damage reduction/hardness twice (though on the flip side, could allow you to take advantage of an energy vulnerability twice.)

This, thankfully, is not a contentious understanding, though depending on how the grenadier's ability is interpreted above, may limit one's ability to combine these two effects. At worst, at 6th level you can draw your alchemical substance as a move action, apply it as a swift, and infuse, load, and fire it with a bomb strapped to it as a standard.

Other Related Rules & Useful Stuff

Understanding how these rules relate to one another and the actions required to perform them is vital to playing a mad bomber successfully, and at the moment, it's going to require a conversation with your DM to figure out how your abilities are going to work.

Some other useful rules to brush up on:

Throw Splash Weapon refers to the rules for Ranged Attacks; these are basic and good to know.

Conductive weapon property. This can be a good replacement for Explosive Missile, above, since you only use your bomb uses if you hit, or you can stack them for one enormous explosive shot that's going to drain you of resources (but it'd be an amazing display!)

Special Ammunition is extremely helpful when coupled with your grenadier's alchemical weapon ability, and/or if you choose to take the explosive missile discovery or experiment with a conductive ranged weapon. In particular, Tangleshot Arrows or Dye Arrows allow you to retain your attack against touch AC, but at the cost of regular weapon damage (which could be significant.)

Where Things Get Weird

Launching Crossbow and Crossbow Mastery

For those that rule against alchemical splash weapons being able to be drawn with Quick Draw, or that the action specified in the grenadier's alchemical weapon feature is not the action required to draw & apply the alchemical substance, this interaction is clear, and seems to spit in the eye of such rulings (though it in no way invalidates them.)

I think that's everything. I hope that this is helpful, and I'd welcome feedback or to know if I missed or forgot anything. I'd love to know what people's rulings are based on all the above-presented information. I probably didn't make it a secret what my interpretations are, but I definitely understand the other way the rules can be interpreted.

Thanks for reading!

Our group is gearing up to start Wrath of the Righteous, and like I usually do, I've been giving lots of thought to the long-term goals of my new character, a Hellknight armiger trained by the Order of the Godclaw.

He will be going into the campaign with the clear certainty and sense of purpose that he intends to found a new Hellknight Order - the Order of the Lesion.

I have been avoiding spoilers, but I did happen to catch a thread topic title referencing retaking Citadel Drezen, so clearly I will get to enjoy and use a pre-built Citadel as my Order's base of operations.

The Order of the Lesion is stationed at and named for the Worldwound. Its members believe that infection, corruption, and decay - both physical and moral - must be cleansed, cauterized, or amputated to stop its spread. Though seen by some as more altruistic than other Hellknight orders as members of the Order of the Lesion provide healing and treatment to the sick and injured, this is done out of pragmatism, not mercy. The Order of the Lesion sees the Worldwound as a metaphysical representation of the moral infection and decay of the world, and views demons as just another plague to be purged.

The Order's penance will be to be bled followed by cauterization, and the Order will have access to the Law and Healing domains provided by my character taking the Divine Source path feature. The War Razor is the Order's favored weapon. The Order's crest is a razor over a bowl.

Still working out some details, such as the accents for the armor, though I know the Order of the Lesion will wear crimson cloaks. The Order will be filled from the ranks of my combination of Leadership, Champion - Crusader path feature, Mythic Leadership, and Mythic Paragon (to further inflate my following.)

Feel free to toss around your own ideas or steal the Order of the Lesion if you like it!