Guennarr's page

After reading most of the numerous postings in this thread it is clearly evident that people here really care about the future of Paizo. Unfortunately it is as evident how desperate the situation for Paizo is. If even you, the industry experts cannot estimate what 4e will be like and if it will be suitable for your products... :((

Apparently this is like taking a gamble and either relying on an unknown rules edition with so far unknown complications (say e.g. size of OGL content) or staying with the known rules and an unknown number of customers.

So how could Paizo reduce the "risk" and what risks are there?
1. Alienate people by using the "wrong" rule set.
2. 4e implications:
- Are Paizo style adventures still possible?
- What would be the "freedom of movement" for Paizo?

Ad 1.
Basically there seem to be these groups:

• Most people pointed out that they either don't care for the rule set because they trust foremost in your adventure crafting abilities or at least still resent the demise of the magazines. ;-)
  
• Then there is the numerous crowd who wants to have a look at the new edition before deciding whether to use it.
  
• And there are those who already have so much 3.5e material that they will not convert for quite a long time.
  
• Which leaves a minor group (at least in these boards) who wants to convert in any case.
  

==> This sounds to me as if staying true to 3.5e for some time was the safest thing to do. You could still convert later...
Converting to 4e when it hits the stands sounds rather unreasonable if you want to keep your current audience and don't just plan to repeat what S&S did with Creature Collection 1 (and I think WotC wants to avoid something similar happening again... ;-)

Ad 2.
Some drastic changes to game play were already revealed on wizards.com (number of opponents per encounter and recommended scale of dungeons, spell and class levels... ).
You don't know how many more changes are hidden or not in 4e. You don't know how much of the current OGL non rule content will stay open in 4e (talking about D&D monsters, cosmology, mythology, classes)... You don't know (and WotC doesn't either :p) whether availability of content on D&D insider.com will eventually be mandatory for (younger?) players, or not.
==>Considering these risks staying with 3.5e - until the 4e dust settles down - sounds reasonable, too.

Summary:
I don't pledge for dispensing with 4e at all, but for not rushing too much. As some people mentioned here 4e seems to aim at a new younger audience. And yes on the long run Paizo needs new young players, too.

But Pathfinder and Game Mastery Modules clearly show that you already managed once to persuade people by the high quality of your products. This quality is unlikely to diminish. On the other hand WotC seems to be hard pressed to publish ever new content - and that content apparently is more focussed on new rules and miniatures, less on *printed* content - your chance!

Greetings from Austria,
Günther

Beastman wrote:

Hi @all

Back to topic...What keeps Paizo away from doing products where no stats are provided...

Say you have an encounter with a warband of orcs. Just state it in the product. If the plyers use 3.5 rules, they use the orc stats from 3.5's MM1. If they switch and play with 4.0 rules, the use the stats from 4.0's MM. I don't think, that monsters will be much different in strength between the version [...]

That's a particularly excellent idea Beastman!

I disagree.

First some people already pointed out that encounter balancing will drastically change (so much is already sure if you have a look at the previews on wizards.com). So encounters with the same MM participants using both rule sets seem out of question.

Second in my opinion one of Paizo's strengths is the modifications applied to standard monsters which mean that your next opponent is NOT a clone of the MM entry. I don't fondly remember 2e when you mentioned orcs and your fellow players recited the monster stats by mind... ;-)

Günther

I will not immediately switch to 4e.

1. I feel undecided, too. And while I trust in Paizo's skills and motives, I don't trust in something I couldn't see yet (i.e. 4e).
Even more so in face of my huge 3.0/ 3.5 collection quite possibly falling obsolete. For this reason I'd welcome any prolonged publishing of 3.5/ 3.75 material of yours.

2. I still assume that we talk about *when* Paizo will switch to 4e.
*When* / *if* Paizo converts to 4e, chances are very good that I will follow you. Basically my criteria of decision will be:
- How much of my 3.0/ 3.5 material will grow obsolete?
- How much does the 4e "flavour" break with dear D&D traditions?
- Most important: How does Paizo manage to imprint its own stamp on the new edition in order to maintain the classic feel of D&D?
If I had to decide between plain vanilla (WotC) 4e and a heavily modified Paizo variation, I'd immediately choose the Paizo alternative.

3. Eric, just one question in return:
You mentioned that from your point of view 4e clearly breaks with some of D&D's traditions in order to appeal to a young (new) audience.
You always stressed the fact that Paizo feels obliged to the classic feel of D&D, though.
Does this mean that your target audience is a different one than WotC's target audience? If this is true (WotC hitting the young crowd, Paizo aiming for the experienced rpg gamers), is there any pressure to appeal to new players who start with 4e?

Ok. These were several questions. Just being curious.

My trust is in Paizo.

Greetings from Austria,
Günther

(...) If 4E takes off like a rocket, but didn't give Pathfinder time to get on board, that would be very frustrating.

... not just frustrating, but economically suicidal. :(

I just heard the news that Germany's oldest RPG ("The Dark Eye") found a new publisher, the previous publisher gone bancrupt (for different reasons, though).

I trust in your motivation, people at Paizo.
And I hope that you will be able to keep publishing great RPG material for a long time.

And if there is one company I'd trust to develop OGL into the 3.75e I wanted 4e to be, then it is Paizo.

Greetings,
Günther

Please can you cancel my Pathfinder subscription too. The delays to the UK have tipped the balance.

I'd rather not keeping waiting for things like Dungeon and Dragon and now possibly Pathfinder. The stuff is great the delays have left me cold.

Regards and thanks for your attention
Andrew Glenn

It is probably not my task to do so, but you are doing Paizo unjust:

Dragon and Dungeon magazine = old delivery by an intermediary in the U.K.
Pathfinder and GameMastery Modules = direct post delivery from the states.

I subscribed to both PF and GMM: no problem so far.
Even the delivery options to send PF and GMM in a combined posting worked out fine.

So if your decision is purely based on delivery experiences with the last Dragon and Dungeon issues: Better rethink it.

Greetings,
Günther

(...)

Mostly I want the pdfs. That's a significant factor in my decision. But, I'd also like the item cards and such.

And, I wouldn't mind a discount on such a subscription...

I agree with Sebastian.

I am not into item cards, but if I'd like to have some, I can still order them separately.

It's different for the material available in printed and in .pdf form. I would like to get other printed Pathfinder products in printed and in pdf form without having to pay twice for them. (That would be the Pathfinder Chronicles product line, wouldn't it?.

And same as Sebastian, I would like to know that .pdf versions of all pathfinder chronicles products are included... without having to pay more than by single order. :-))
(odd, another time I seem to agree with Sebastian... :p)

Greetings,
Günther

I do a wild "confrontation" of quotes, but these comments caught my attention:

(...) Great. The number one immersion-killer of all time has found its way into tabletop/pen-and-paper RPG's: Kiting.

"LOL I run circles while maintaining my DOTs on all the MOBs and pop my magic boots/jetpack if they get too close! xp's are UNREAL!"

I'm reaaaaaally not looking forward to an MMO played at a geological pace with a higher subscription fee. I'm praying that experience was not typical. :/

... and then I read this posting by James Jacobs:

Whatever edition of the rules we end up using in the future, rest assured that we'll be making those rules support gameplay that matches what we like and what we know our customers like. That is to say; expect games that read and feel like Rise of the Runelords and the Dungeon adventure paths (and really... ALL of the adventures in the last 4 years of Dungeon).

I am aware that only a selected few know anything about 4e but the wild rumours and small shreds of information used for keeping everyone's interest alive.

But I am wondering: How would you, Erik and James, bring your and our image of a typical D&D adventure to life, if the core rules of 4e made horror visions like the one above possible?

I am hoping that 4e won't really enable scenes like that.
And I am trying hard to not prematurely fall in with the haters/ lovers fractions - because/ despite the scarce information trickling out of the WotC offices.

Nevertheless I'd be interested in your opinion:
If 4e fails to meet the expectations of yours and of your key audience - would you stay with 3.5e?

Just to avoid being misunderstood: I am all for the typical D&D mood, be it 3.5e or 4e.

Greetings,
Günther

(...) With 4E, though, the majority of D&D players who regularly purchase gaming products will probably make the switch. The minority who remain behind are probably -- I say probably -- too few in number for Paizo to cater to them, particularly when they might reasonably gamble that, even if the minority hates the 4E rules with the passion hotter than a thousand suns, (...)

Understanding economic necessities is fine, but keep in mind:

Before the 4e announcement already True20 and C&C support by 3rd parties for Pathfinder was all but fixed.

I am not an expert in this, but do you think that these rule sets have a larger following than 3.5e? There is a significant number of players/ DMs who are not willing to abandon their large 3.5e rule collections so soon. 4e might grow into something nice, but until then I will definitely stick with 3.5e for a while...

... and if it fails (-> see next posting), nobody will make me convert to 4e.

Lately I didn't look that much at the WotC site, but here is the official statement by Bill Slavicsek, director of the WotC R&D department:

Conversion

The other issue that seems to have caused a stir revolves around the conversion of characters from 3rd Edition rules to 4th Edition rules. There are a few key concepts that need to be made crystal clear so that everyone understands them.

First, 4th Edition D&D is still powered by the d20 System. At its core, if you know how to play 3rd Edition D&D you’re going to know how to play 4th Edition.

Second, this is a new game. It uses all of the trappings of the current d20 System, but it approaches all of the rules from a new and exciting perspective. That means that while you’ll know how to make attack rolls, skill checks, and damage rolls (the broad concepts), you won’t necessarily know all of the nuances of the fighter class or the arcane power source, or the death and dying rules (the details).

Third, we can’t physically replicate eight years of products and options right out of the gate. It just can’t happen.

With these things in mind, straight-up character conversion won’t be possible. As James Wyatt so eloquently expressed it, however, you’ll have no problem expressing the concept and story of your 3rd Edition character within the framework of 4th Edition. As we’ve seen during playtesting, in many ways the new rules allow you to better match the rules to the character concept you had in mind than the 3E rules ever did.

In essence, using the 4th Edition rules, you’ll be able to rebuild your character around the same concept and backstory as before, but there won’t be a magic formula that says, “change this number to that number” or “this power to that power.”

Here is the link.

So in short: no conversion guide and only superficial similarities with 3.5e.

Greetings,
Günther

Think after 4E comes out maybe some of the older 3.5 stuff (monsters, PrCs, feats) would become OGL? Then I'd switch from saying "yeah let's go 4e!" to keeping 3.5.

Then again they probably wouldn't do that for that very reason.

3.5 Core Rules already are OGL... And all the PrC, spells, and feats, you own are 100%ly compatible to this OGL core set. :-) Of course WotC won't declare the 3.5 supplements OGL (and be it just for the name and setting information included in it). But nobody prevents you from keeping on using your 3.5 books...

I'll do what everyone does right now: Sit and wait.

The alternatives are simple:
a) Game flow facilitated and old D&D feeling/ "basic compatibility" left untouched -> I'll go for 4e
b) WotC tries in earnest to compete with MMORPGs -> I'll stay with 3.5 and call myself happy for owning a complete rule collection.

I'd just hope that Paizo comes to the same decision as I...

Greetings,
Günther

Okay it has to be said, does this actually sound like its based in Faerun?

Nice catch about the cleric of Orcus so what is his portfolio?
So any takers as to what this adventure will entail and by that i mean;

a) Has pregenerated characters sinc eit is a preview of 4e,
b) conversion notes if you want to use 3.5 or even 3.0 characters,
and
c) In addition to above the capacity to convert characters to 4e however limited.

Hope this qualifies as a good start for a product discussion so its over to you!

If you'd follow the reports from Gencon, you'd seen that WotC denied again and again that there will be any conversion guide (at least nothing coming close to the one for 3rd edition). 3e and 4e are simply supposed to be too different to make any conversion guide feasible.

Besides they want to promote the new edition and not provide information on how to convert 4e to 3e... ;-)

An after thought:
That is qiute a clever choice - just thinking about the huge success of Creature Collection by S&S which was published at the same time as the 3e PH and *before* the 3e MM....

Following the same thought:
The second adventure path will probably still follow 3.5, but GMMs published closely to the roll out of 4e could be a great way to attract new players to Paizo.

In the same way e.g. a Monster Handbook which collects all new Golarion (correct spelling?) monsters and updates them to 4e could prove very useful:
- an introduction for new (4e) players who desperately look for 4e critters
- a useful tool for us for converting our campaigns to 4e.

Ok. That's it.

Greetings,
Günther

There isn't much to discuss anymore.

Clark announced in the necromancer games forum:
"[...] So, if a "new" rule set is coming. What would you like us to do?

A Tome of Horrors at or near launch is an obvious move. And we are already working on it.

Tegel is now 4E. Sorry guys. :) [...]"

He was quoted at enworld.org a few days ago, and nothing about the announcement was changed in the meantime.

Obviously there will be a 4th edition Tome of Horrors which will be published quite closely to the release of the 4e PH.

Greetings,
Günther

Hey y'all:

The cunning plan is coming together. TPFG is in contact with Cerberus over in the UK and my guys are working on renting a van to head over to London to pick up the mags. We have been given times this week when somebody will actually be at TPFG, so that is great news. I will keep you informed as the van gets rented, driven to London, magazines picked up, driven back to Liverpool, and then labelled and posted. It is looking like some light at the end of the tunnel. Let's just hope it isn't a train!

Thanks again for your patience and support!

-Lisa

Hello Lisa,

this is good news, indeed!

Not intending to get on everybody's nerves: But could you please keep in mind that my address changed in the meantime (see my subscription details) and use my new address for shipping the issues?
Thanks in advance!

Greetings from Austria,
Günther

... and my opinion is the exact opposite:

I don't judge a new edition I didn't even see yet (not even in such an indirect way).

There are enough settings who underwent three or four incarnations of (A)D&D rules (Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms). So I don't see your point. The settings stayed the same.

I agree with Erik Mona: Wait and see what the new rules will be like.
I don't fear that the setting will suffer from any new rules, because I am sure that the Paizo stuff will interprete new edition rules (*if* they apply them) in a way that they consider appropriate for *their* setting.

Finally I don't think that the setting would suffer if Paizo decided to provide 3e and 4e stats for adventures/ adventure paths. They already plan to (let) do so for True20 and C&C, so why not for 3.5e and 4e? And as mentioned above: FR and GH stats underwent several rules editions, too.

Wait for the new edition to be published, state your opinion then, and see what Paizo decides.

Greetings,
Günther

P.S.
I have a shelf of 3.5 rule books and adventures, too.
But if 4e really drastically improves on 3.5e and
if there is a minimal compatibility of rule editions, I'll go for it.

I am in favour of one big file - if it is properly bookmarked! (e.g. "chapters" according to the current split up of Pathfinder #1 in seperate files, "sub chapters" according to encounters).

As a personal side note: I am a european subscriber and therefore have to wait one to two weeks until the printed version arrives. For this reason I felt all the more irritated by the constant interruptions when I had to open a different file:
- "Oh, so this is the cover page! Let's see which file contains the content page."
- "Great, this article references to page xy. Too bad, page xy is in a different file."

Please - for the sake of usability - only offer one single file per issue. This is the standard already set both by your old edition (A)D&D products sold at your store and digital book versions offered by different publishers. These books sometimes take up 60+ MBs - more than any PF issue will ever reach. So please don't worry too much about our computers and stay true to industry standards for usability's sake.

I understand those readers who would like to take fragments of a PF issue with them, but please be honest: You don't rip out your most favourite pages of PF #1 out of the binding, do you? ;-) And if you like one monster, but dislike another: Would your next demand be to offer PF in single page files? [only slightly exaggerating]

Thanks!
Günther

Which module is this critter in? I want it!

Good news for you: The Tatzlwyrm debuted in the first free GameMasteryModule (GMM) D0 "Hollow's Last Hope" (module link [-> page 17 f.] and link to pregenerated characters).

It's a nice 1st level adventure and the prelude to GMM D1 "Crown of the Kobold King". Enjoy it!

Greetings,
Günther

Maybe we should do an art preview of Pathfinder 2 as a blog post...

But yes... the "cartoon" style of art, if I remember correctly, will not be going forward in future Pathfinders except for a few images by Kyle in the Foreword and perhaps in the previews of next month section at the end. For Pathfinder 2, our artists are, I believe, James Zhang, Warren Mahy, John Gravatto, Ben Wootten, and Andrew Hou. I'm sure I forgot someone, but since we had a lot more time to order art and work on Pathfinder in general for 2 (since Dungeon wasn't interrupting us... only Gen Con), the art is MUCH closer to where I and Pathfinder's art director want it to be.

As the saying in these boards is by now: Which publishing staff in the d20 industry pays such close attention to it's readers' opinions? (and I did get the hint in PF #1's foreword aimed at those not visiting these boards yet! I.e. inviting even more comments ;-)).

Thanks for the fast reply, James!
[no shameless endearing, just stating the obvious]

Your choice of artists for issue #2 sounds very promising (and I don't want to diminish Kyle's work, it just didn't fit the interior of the adventures). More cartoonish artwork for "everything editorial"* sounds very good to me and would set rpg and the editorial more clearly apart.

Greetings from Austria,
Günther

--
* apart from Foreword and Preview: Maybe you would like to add one page comic "comments" on/ "episodes" of the adventure in the same PF issue...

I agree with the starter of this thread:
Despite the great content I felt slightly disappointed by the artwork. It felt very close to "Downer", in other words like a comic. So the artwork was in a stark contrast to the considerably more in depth content of PF #1.

It was clear right from the start that PF wouldn't feature Greyhawk style artwork (although there are some GH fans at Paizo and 2nd ed. artwork is still my favourite!), but I didn't expect this either.

Somehow the comic look of the npcs even manages to diminish the great landscape and map graphics. This means something because usually to me content is more important than "packaging".

Please change the artwork style in #2 (if still possible), PF isn't supposed to feel like a comic, is it?

Greetings,
Günther

Hi everyone,

I was thrilled to find Encyclopedia Magica 1, 3, and 4 as downloadable pdf files in your store (-> link ).

I am just wondering why you don't offer Encyclopedia Magica 2:
Isn't the file available any more or is your store undergoing a revamp?

Thanks for your answer!

Greetings,
Günther

The other day I read in a thread here about on-line book sellers discounting 3.5 Edition books now that 4th is announced. Sounds a bit pre-mature, and now I can't find the reference.

Where do you shop for books? Has anyone found a better discount on 3.5 books than what Amazon, Overstock or Buy.com offer? My distinctly Un-FLGS is still stocked with 1st & 2nd Edition books that they are selling for cover price.

Thanks for the pointers,

Rez

My guess is that you will have to wait for a while longer.

4e is just *announced* and so 3.5 books will certainly not grow cheaper before 4e is out and "4e replacement" is available.

You might mean 3.5 .pdfs which are offered cheaper now and then. There is no ongoing 3.5 discount I'd know about, though.

If you are interested in which OGL/ D&D 3.5e books are recommendable look for the various threads about that topic which sprang up during the announcement phase of Pathfinder.

I remember "Advanced Bestiary" (a template book by Green Ronin Publishing), "Tome of Horrors I" (1e/ 2e monsters brought up to date to 3.5 by Necromancer Games), and various D&D 3.5 core supplements being mentioned there.

Greetings,
Günther

(...) My parnter there has agreed to have his guys get in their van and go to London, pick up the mags, and ship them out. I am now trying to find out where the magazines are so I can give him an address to go to. I am also hoping we can get the addresses of the folks who subscribed through TPFG so we can send those out too. While they are there, I will have them pick up all the magazine back issues, so we should be able to send out copies that were lost, never arrived, etc.

(...)

-Lisa

Hello Lisa,

hello Joshua,

thank you for your efforts to solve the "TPFG problem" and keeping us informed.

Before re-posting the issues, could you please give my updated address (the one used for PF and GMM subscription) to your partner at Cerberus Entertainment?

Otherwise if you send the remaining Dragon and Dungeon issues to my old address, all your efforts would be vain, for I moved to Austria in the meantime and the issues would be undeliverable again.

Thanks again!

Greetings,
Günther

I don't want to criticise anyone at Paizo, but I don't have any idea how the remaining three issues of Dragon and Dungeon are to reach me.

1. As of today (and as severally mentioned above) I don't live any more in Germany but in Austria. I was able to change my PF and GMM shipping address, but not the Dragon/ Dungeon shipping address.

2. I ordered a "Nachsendeantrag" which is supposed to deliver any mail addressed to my old address to my parents. The downside is:
a) It only works for mail delivered by German Post ("Deutsche Post"). I don't know which post company delivers Dungeon/ Dragon in Germany, though.
b) *If* all "european" issues of Dungeon #149 were sent without recipient name on the enveloppe, there is absolutely no chance that Dungeon #149 reaches me.
Why? Standard procedure by post delivery staff in Germany is to return post to sender if the recipient is not clearly identifyable (which can be assumed in a flat with about 30 apartments).

It would be very kind if someone from Paizo could reply to this mail.
As mentioned above: No criticism intended, just a sincere interest in receiving the remaining Dungeon and Dragon issues of my subscription.

Thanks in advance for your help,
Günther

(...) In the meantime im reading Monte Cooks World of Darkness and Dragon 358 :)

A bit of thread-jacking:

I am interested in your impressions of Monte Cook's World of Darkness.
Would you like to share your opinion here in the Paizo product discussion thread?
I am still hesitant about the book.

Thanks!
Günther

Status of magazines:

Dungeon 149 - not arrived yet
Dragon 358 - arrived on 20/08/2007
Dungeon 150 - not arrived yet
Dragon 359 - not arrived yet

Same status here.

Dragon 358 just took one day longer to arrive.
Nothing else arrived yet.

I am feeling really irritated for the previously mentioned reasons.
Just four days left here in Germany and I am still not interested in paying for magazines which will never arrive me! :((((((((((

Greetings,
Günther

I know that delivery of PF #1 and the current GMM issue will take some time. But shouldn't we get an e-mail information with download links as soon as the issues are sent?

Unfortunately I didn't get any such information so far.
Apparently the physical issues are sent, though. And some subscribers claim to already have received a download link for PF 1.

Do european subscribers get later access to the PF downloads than american subscribers?

I rechecked my e-mail account multiple times. I didn't receive any such e-mail from you.

Could you please tell me when I get this e-mail of yours?
Thank you for your effort!

Greetings,
Günther

There's a useful service called Nachsendeantrag. If you don't know what that is, visit the Deutsche Post homepage and look for Nachsendeservice. I'm not 100% certain that they will send your mail to Austria (foreign destination), but it's certainly worth a try.

Thanks for the tip, jow!

Actually I'll order this service tomorrow, and it will be "aimed" at my parents who still live nearby. I'd prefer to get my issues before christmas time , though, when I am likely to see them next time. ;-)

Besides there is a severe disadvantage: Nachsendeantrag only works if the post is delivered by Deutsche Post. If for whatever reasons a different post company delivers the issues, I'll never see them. :(

About the missing issues:
As of today neither Dungeon nor Dragon reached me at my german address.

Greetings,
Günther

Guennarr wrote:

As far as I understand, WotC does exactly what you want them to do. But by now I sound like Sebastian (and I hate to admit that).

Except without the colorful commentary and insults. But that can come with time. Admitting that I am right is the first step.

It's not that you are right but the way you make others know it.

Respect is seldom wrong. So don't wait for insults of mine.

Greetings,
Günther

(...)

I'm aware that many Paizo customers will not be converting to 4e. Honestly, before I heard some of the things I've heard at this show, I wasn't sure I wanted to convert either. So I sympathize.

Pathfinder currently plans to support officially sanctioned conversions for Castles & Crusades and True 20, so assuming we DO convert, I suspect it is very likely that we (or some affiliated partner) will provide 3.5 conversion guidelines.

Or we might stick with 3.5. We haven't seen the rules yet, and can't make the decision until we do.

One thing I can say for sure: As a gamer I would be a lot happier with a game that doesn't require two hours of prep-time for four hours of play. I have heard that the new system addresses this problem, and that strikes me as excellent.

If Wizards of the Coast can streamline the rules without robbing the game of its variety and complexity, I will be very impressed.

So far, I am optimistic.

--Erik Mona
Publisher
Paizo Publishing, LLC

I feel very similarly.

And yet there are two more things on my mind:

1. Despite all complaining the majority will convert (it was the same thing with 3.0).

2. I just moved to a different country, will have to look for new D&D players around. After may 2008 most new candidates will play 4e whether I like the new rule set or not.

Existing groups can keep on playing 3.5e endlessly. DMs looking for new players (like me) will have to adapt to the new edition anyway.

For these and the above mentioned reasons I am also optimistic that 4e will keep the promises made. I wouldn't like to see a D&D incarnation with the complexity of a video game. And if WotC fails to keep their promises and you decide in favour of 3.5, I'd see the d20 industry being completely fragmented, each company supporting a different D&D offspring: Hackmaster, OD&D, OSRIC, True20, Arcana Evolved, OGL 3.5, OGL 4.0 to name a few...

Greetings from Austria,
Günther

(...)

I think not. The cost of books + costs of D&D Insider will outstrip the cost of a typical MMORPG and playing via Insider's interface will never be a match for the quick action and graphical superiority of a true video game. D&D is about shared storytelling, about gathering friends to the table to game together and unwind. If that is lost, a BIG part of D&D is lost with it.

As I mentioned above: At least for my group so far all of the descriptions of today's teenagers fit, too - and they are age 28 to about age 45. Not everyone plays D&D with as much intensity as the readers of these boards do (even my gf just keeps wondering about the amount of time I spend on this hobby!).

(...)

I really think this battle is being fought in an ass-backwards manner. Make a fun, quality game that builds on the strengths of D&D's previous incarnations. Include logical innovations that simplify and streamline what is cludgy and/or unbalanced in 3.x and the game would be improved while retaining those elements that make the game D&D. If that fails to keep people playing the game, then let the game die with dignity.

As far as I understand, WotC does exactly what you want them to do. But by now I sound like Sebastian (and I hate to admit that).

1. The rules are streamlined (high level play being facilitated, grappling rules being taken care of, increased attractiveness of low level characters to name a few).
2. DnDInsider isn't mandatory. Online play isn't mandatory.
And of course you are right: Offering information via DnDInsider is cheaper for them, gives them a reliable monthly source of income, and gives them direct control over the contents (r.i.p., analogue Dungeon and Dragon).

Whether this means the death of classical supplement rule books stays to be seen.

Greetings,
Günther

Hi everyone,

When my son turned 13 I started looking around for a game we could play together. We'd really enjoyed Heroscape (Hasbro again!) so I thought D&D would be a great step up.

He took to the game immediately. What I found interesting was that his school friends had never heard of D&D and really weren't interested, especially because of the reading involved. We resorted to explaining things rather than making them read the parts of the PHB that were relevant to their characters. We have a good campaign going now, but it's still really hard to compete with video games.

Video games rule the entertainment world of children these days. If D&D is to survive it must adjust to this new paradigm. If we expect 14 year olds to get interested in the game and keep it alive, D&D must become a game you can play on the computer. Eventually, these children will adapt to the more sophisticated role-playing, table-top format we know and love, but right now the best way to attract new players is through the internet and computers.

This is a good point.

And I start to think, that we don't talk about a generation problem: My current group consists of people age 28 to 45. None of them ever read all of the PH rules. None of them. Have a guess how willing they were to buy any supplements during the last five years.

As long as I explain things to them and provide entertaining adventures they are happy. Now or then they will do some web research, approach me and say "What do you think about this PrC". But that's it.

All of them are in relationships, some of them have family and some jobs with quite some responsibility. I think, it is not just a matter of age. There aren't that many people who are willing/ able to spend as much time for the hobby as most people here do. Hey, just measure the time all of you spend on these messageboards! ;-)

In this regard WotC seems to have a good instinct: The new core rules are supposed to be less heavy on text, less heavy on special rules, and therefore maybe more easily accessible for players without as much D&D time as we have.

There are precedences. Even old time D&D players sometimes long for simplicity. Castles & Crusades is one example, I read about another one which is based on d20 but dispenses with most of the special rules. So let's see how well they do their job. As long as my ("more complicated") 3.5 material stays usable without too much reworking needed, I am with 4e.

I have to be realistic. I just moved to a different country and any new group I join after may 2008 is likely to use the new rule set.

Greetings,
Günther

Actually, I have several friends who would dispute that. But if we accept at face value the assertion that model railroading is a dying hobby, that makes me even MORE annoyed that they still manage to have a print magazine and we don't.

-The Gneech

Hello John,

actually my father and my uncle are model railroaders to different extents. Besides there are about half a dozen monthly model railroading magazines available in Germany, one of them even some kind of brand exclusive (-> Maerklin company).

There is one difference, though.
During my father's generation next to every boy had a model railroad.
Even during its boom time (at least here in Germany) rpgs were less popular. Then there is the minor fact that model railroading is today a very strange hobby, but was by then supposed to be "educational" ("the boys learn something about electricity"), whereas D&D was slightly more disputed.

Longevity and compatibility is another subject:
Companies introduced new track systems, created ever new locomotives, but you can still use fifty year old HO locomotives today. The only major change was digitilization during the early 90ies. But if you expend some euros, your old locomotives are fit for the digital age.

Compare the rpg industry to this: You'd need one ruleset which is ever improved upon and which is always backwards compatible (I know the comparision is wrong in several ways). D20 could have been something like this with 3.x as a steady improvement. We will see how dramatic changes to 4.0 will be.

One thing is obvious in both industries, though: Customers are aging and dying. The number of railroading magazines decreased, the number of model railroading companies here shrunk even more dramatically - a lot of companies shut down during the last ten years. The hobby was introduced some twenty years before D&D, so you can guess, for how much longer D&D would prevail, if no new customers are attracted to it (-> above discussions).

Sorry for rambling. You see, I got somewhat in touch with that other hobby, too. ;-)

Greetings,
Günther

Edit:
Maybe it is an advantage of D&D fans, that they/ we are able to adapt more easily to new technological chances. Most model railroaders even scorn computer usage, although it does facilitate things a lot. Have a guess how many children still play with model railroads by now: zero.

I don't play RPGA anyway, so this doesn't really affect me. I would be more likely to get into 4th edition if they put out a Greyhawk book for it, though.

How shortsighted!

1. They effectively drop GH out of the core books (-> they will include earth mythology like Thor), the only GH remainders are supposed to be spell names!

2. They do drop GH out of the RPGA (-> it was just the biggest living campaign, but who cares):

So what do you think does that mean for the future of GH?

Just keep on hoping...

Greetings,
Günther

I´m currently DMing a 3.5 campaign I devised myself. Afterwards, I could still play through Shackled City, Age of Worms and Savage Tide, all on GH. Besides, I have plenty of GH material of various editions I could use. So, I sure don´t need 4e anytime soon, and honestly, could play for decades without touching it. Still, I will follow the development closely and see what 4e is all about, and probably buy the books as well(though I might wait for the german translations, planned for fall 2008), as I´m a fan of RPG rules as well as stories.

Stefan

Yes, Stefan, I just read the news at "Feder & Schwert" about the german translation.

I just keep wondering: How are they to provide the online content?
Or will they just concentrate on the rule book translation and afterwards players are sent to Gleemax/ DndInsider?

In my experience F&S is even by now not up to WotC standards when it comes to providing errata, web enhancements etc.

Greetings,
Günther

Actually, the edition neutral thing referred to a lack of crunch in favor of fluff. It has been explicitly stated that they believe conversions between editions will be difficult if not impossible. One of the designers (sorry, I don't have the link) blogged that they do not even plan to offer conversion rules at this time.

Whether that is a good thing or a bad thing remains to be seen.

You are both right and wrong (if it comes to what was revealed at GenCon):

Right: It is difficult if not impossible to convert everything from 3.5 to 4.0. How should you achieve this? In may to july 2008 the core rules will be published. How are you to model five years worth of supplementary rules with just the core rules?

Wrong: This doesn't mean that you can't convert core rule characters. The complexity of the rule set is surveillable, and WotC stresses that 4e is still a d20 product. Right now I am still optimistic that this is not just a marketing trick.

Epic levels (i.e. level 21 to 30) will be integrated, racial feats will grow part of a character, magic will see a refurbishing, encounters are supposed to grow more dynamic, and fighers will grow more specialized. It only depends on how much tinkering is done on stat blocks (both for npcs and monsters).

Greetings,
Günther

John Robey wrote:

Y'know, model railroading is still out there and still has its devotees.

When I was a kid, gaming was an even more obscure and nerds-only activity than it is now.

These days, model railroading is considerably more obscure than roleplaying games. But somehow, model railroading still has print magazines.

-The Gneech

Amen!

... and model railroading is a dying hobby...

What was the point of the argument? ;-)

Greetings,
Günther

(...)

I have always had a problem with the way things are done now in 3+e. It makes no sense that a spellcaster runs out of spells and can't do anything else for the rest of the day. If a party is in a dungeon the monsters don't attack just because the spellcaster(s) have to rest to get their spells back. I've never understood that whole thing. With Reserve feats and ToB you do not have this problem. It actually makes adventuring make sense.

I've played in games where they only had 1 battle a day so the spellcasters could rest and recharge. It's such an odd way to go about playing. Think about it. Look at the Lord of the Rings. Gandalf contributed to the combats even without casting spells. When the time came and a spell was needed he had it ready. However, he didn't cast all his spells right at the begining leaving himself 'empty'. It seems that this is the case in most of the games I play in (outside of a regular group).

Anyways... I rambled a bit.

Your Gandalf example is correct. But in D&D terms Gandalf just grew such a powerful and old wizard due to his self discipline in hostile encounters. Spell casters (especially at higher levels) never were underpowered. One of the few things a player needs to keep in mind are spell selection and spell ressources.

The first one was taken care of by the introduction of sorcerers. The latter one is the one thing players have to take care of. Actually in my adventures having to keep an eye on your available spells was one of the few things which prevented the party's sorcerer from blasting everything standing in the party's path.

On the other hand this seems to be the way the game is headed: easier play, less ressource management, less thinking, more play. Hopefully 4e won't grow too arcade game like (i.e. just hack and slash and blasting). I always liked the thought that there was a class for everyone: wizards for tinkerers and strategists, fighters for action loving players...

Greetings,
Günther

The BoNS is the only book that the group I DM officially dispises. not because of the mechanics, but becasue they feel that the way it works would draw attention away from everyone else. It turns the character into the kung-fu movie steriotype.(...)

Seconded.

Kung-fu like mechanics might be fun for Oriental Adventures, but my campaign plays in a classical fantasy setting.

I don't want to see anything kung-fu like in Faerûn or Greyhawk. Period.

Moreover I am against quasi magical abilities of martial characters. Fighters are underpowered in comparision to spell casters, so give them supernatural abilities?!?
Malhavoc's Book of Iron Might was already headed the wrong way, BoNS even more so.

Greetings,
Günther

I'd be all for a Paizo Monster Manual

then again at their adventures don't seem to be centered around the mini line (something I hate in the new Ravenloft adventure, Eyes of the lich queen) they have 5 MM books why not use them

grumble grumble grumble

RM

Hhmm... actually for the time being Paizo can only use one MM and two OGL monsters from MM 2. The rest of MM 2 and the newer MMs are intellectual property of WotC.

I'd surely appreciate if further fragmentation was avoided and Paizo could keep on making use of all books published by WotC.

But who knows?
Maybe the only good point of 4e will be that 3rd companies get easier access to WotC material? (-> just dreaming... :p)

Greetings,
Günther

I got a chance to thumb through it the other day and it looks pretty good for those of us who are interested in the new WOD with a bit of a D20 twist. I LOVE his take on the scream sheets for each supernatural "race", they got me more interested in new WOD than the hardcover books ever did. Still, ymmv.

One question: Monte Cook also wrote the Cthulu d20 book (-> link 1, link 2)

How big are the similarities?
Do both books combine well, or are they in part identical?

I know that the settings are completely different, but both books head towards a darker d20 style and so I wonder...

Thanks in advance,
Günther

See yourself: Link

Greetings,
Günther

See yourself: Link

Greetings,
Günther

Isn't there a p&p version of WOW running around somewhere? Or maybe it's everquest. I always get those two confused.

There is a P&P version of WoW.

And do you know what it is based on? ;-)

Have a look here:
http://secure1.white-wolf.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=656

To be fair: WoW-RPG's predecessor was simply called "Warcraft". And Warcraft wasn't a MMORPG, but a strategy game. So it was first and all a rpg set in a computer game fantasy setting. WoW arrived later...

Greetings,
Günther

I try to buy everything I can from Paizo because I believe in them as a company. Their sincerity is palpable to the most casual observer. When they migrate to 4e it will because they feel like their customers/fans are amiable to it. They'll think, ask, and research. I wont feel like I've just been given the middle finger.

So again. It's not about the game I love being changed. It's about corporate image. And just because a happy spokesman says it's all good doesn't mean it is.

I agree with you on Paizo.

On the other hand the D&D designers at GenCon do a pretty good job at persuading me that they are sincerely listening to the feed back they receive there. See the interviews with James Wyatt and Rob Heinsoo:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=welcome/conventions/gencon07

Paizo outdos them easily in this aspect, but then Paizo is a smaller company and doesn't have to maintain/ develop a rule set in addition to the periodicals/ adventure paths.

Greetings,
Günther

Coridan wrote:

Golarion should be the core setting for 4e then =p

<Bleep> NO! I want the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign setting to remain in Paizo's hands. I do not want it to be handed off to Hasbro.

Agreed.

Handing it over to WotC would mean that WotC controls the content, too.

On the other hand I'd always prefer Greyhawk over Golarion, although I'm a pretty recent convert and still like my FR campaign. ;-)

Greetings,
Günther

Yeah but it also shows that the tales of the ongoing good relationship between Paizo and WotC aren't just some kind of polite, but white lie.

That is something all those WotC-Haters tend to forget (IMHO): WotC is not our enemy. They have to succeed in a business, but this business is not about "How to alienate as much players as possible". It's quite the contrary.

Which may well be my only comment to all those "WotC is the biggest [insert offense] of all times"-posts popping up faster as I can read them

So true!

Another proof: Who wrote "Return to Castle Greyhawk"? ;-)
Basically it was an all-Paizo product published by WotC.

Greetings,
Günther

To be completely honest, JTStorm, I don't know. Until we've had a chance to look at 4e we won't know how hard a conversion would be. Sorry it's not much of an answer, but it's also not a cop-out. We just honestly don't know.

Hi there,

I guess, all of us will be only in the know (you somewhat earlier than us) after seing 4e.

Some interesting hints can be found in an interview with Rob Heinsoo at GenCon, though: According to him a mechanical conversion is unrealistic, a conversion to the closest equivalent in 4e is manageable, though.

You find the interview video here:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=welcome/conventions/gencon07

Greetings,
Günther

Thanks, Gary!
Good to be able to have all the 4e stuff in one area!

Greetings,
Günther

Dithering Fool, you might like to see this youtube video interview with James Whyatt/ WotC at GenCon (about 1:10 min. before the end):
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=welcome/conventions/gencon07

According to this BoNS as much as the StarWars Saga Edition were draughts which were heavily influenced by the (by then) current state of development for 4e.

4e will differ from both books, though.

Greetings,
Günther

Denial:

No fricking way did they just announce 4th Edition! NO WAY

Anger:

I hate WoTC. HATE HATE HATE! Boycott!

Bargaining:

Maybe 4th Edition will be an improvement. They might not grind it into the dirt. Maybe Dragon online won't suck as bad as it sounds. It was stolen from the slush pile after all...

Depression:

Meh...I'm just going to stuff all my gaming materials into a trunk and play WoW instead.

Acceptance:

Yeah, I guess I'll buy the books when they come out. What choice do we sheep have, really? All the new supplements will be 4th Edition.

*lol*!

I guess all of us are in different states of sadness, as you implied... ;-)

Greetings,
Günther