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Demon

Gronk de'Morcaine's page

381 posts. Alias of Kydeem de'Morcaine.


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kikidmonkey wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

You can of course make an item which gives you true strike either at will (2000gp) or on command (1800gp), but it takes a standard action to activate, so you're not making any attacks at all in that round, and only the first attack (which is your highest attack bonus anyway) will get the +20, assuming you didn't make an AoO in the meantime.

which would make for an epic bad guy archer/crossbowman encounter, if your group is into that sort of challenge

I once used a whole army of goblins scattered through the forest with light crossbows and poisoned bolts. It was the weakest cheapest poison in the book.

However, running around among all the others, there was one arcane trickster goblin with a true strike wand. His crossbow bolts had the most powerful poison in the book.


=) Writing with more clarity and precision...

I did not realize that it was only the held charge of a touch spell that dissipated when another spell was cast.

For some reason I got it in my head that it was any spell that had not yet taken effect. So since the True Strike had not yet taken effect (you haven't gotten a +20 on a to hit roll) it would dissipate when you cast the next spell. (Mage armor would have already taken effect so would not be affected by the overland flight.)

I am glad to find I was wrong.


Ok, I didn't remember it was only touch spells. Thanks guys.


A friend is wanting to use true strike to make sure the really important spells with an attack roll actually hit.

However, I thought if you cast a spell you lose the one you were getting ready. So if:
You cast True Strike then Enervation, you would lose the True Strike and get a normal ranged touch attack Enervation.
You cats Enervation then True Strike, you would lose the enervation and have nothing on which to apply the +20 to hit.

Are we remembering wrong?


I think they have decided that a mounted campaign will be too complicated, but thanks for the help.


I think they would all be taking something that would give them a mount that advances.

I can always have things mostly occur in the out of doors.

They like their feats, I don't know that they will still want to try it when they find out how feat intensive it is.

They didn't mention aerial mounts yet, I'm just guessing they will.


I have not tried to do much with mounted characters before, but some of my players want to give it a go.

So what do I have to watch out for with mounted combat?
Advantages? Disadvantages?
How does it affect melee, ranged, or casting combat?
What feats should the PC’s be considering (or me for the NPC’s)?

What if they ask for aerial mounts, how much harder is that?


Dang. That makes a bunch of these nearly impossible to use for anyone but a cavalier that bestow it on the mount.


In the second paragraph.
Cavalry formation and coordinated charge


In this particular case, it won’t matter because the cavalier will be giving the teamwork feat to the entire opposition group.

But for the future if I have some mounted guys that are trying to use the teamwork feats for coordinating movements like cavalry formation and coordinated charge, does the mount, the rider, or both need the feat?


Hmm... For some reason the search function isn't working on the field guide pdf. Thanks K. I read through to find the air crystals in it. Yes, I'll buy a few of those as backup.

But I'll want the potion of water breathing so I can cast spells.


Good point on the endure elements. I have a wand for that most of the time anyway. I will use it on the whole team.

I have darkvision so I don't think I would need the everburning torch. But we may have a couple of guys that will want it.

My search isn't finding a Diver's Kit. Which book has that?


Crap, forgot that. Can't really use scrolls underwater. And I don't think I want to spend enough to buy a wand of it.

Ok, so it looks like:
Buy spear (maybe long spear)
Buy potion water breathing
Buy swim fins and/or air crystals if I can find them
Learn and prepare alter self.


Alter Self gives at best a 30' swim speed (which gives the ability to breathe).

It is the best effect but only lasts for 3 minutes (or 5 minutes if I cast it).

I have a feeling we are going to be down there for fair bit of time. So I will have to also get the potion of water breathing.

But I think I'll want a alter self for a serious fight (or to run away).


Actually I already have a masterwork underwater crossbow. Since I was already paying for a masterwork, I decided the miniscule cost for 'underwater' was a good insurance.

I will get a spear, since I'm not sure a GM will let me swing the Morningstar without penalty.

I can't now find the swim fins or air crystals, but I know I've seen them before. Anyone know which book has them?

Potion Sponge is an Undine item. I don't think PFS lets me use racial equipment, but I'm not sure. I will have to check into it.

Potion of Water Breathing is a bit pricey, but I will get at least 1.

Potion of Touch of the Sea and/or Air Bubble will only last a minute (PFS minimum caster level), so might not be worth it if I can't use the Potion Sponge.

Alter Self is 2nd level so I could get a swim speed for 3 minute duration at min caster level. Or my magus could learn it for a 5 minute duration.


Have a character that will have a mission underwater. Exploring a sunken ship. Don't expect it to be a real common occurance. So I don't want to spend more than needed on the gear.

What do you recommend as the 'best' low budget underwater gear?


It was actually a single wand and a single weapon that I wanted to draw at the same time. But I guess not.

It's ok, I decided I have to move anyway.


Can a draw a one handed item with each hand as a part of the same move action?


It wasn't the extra 1d6, it was the mental image of a brute swinging a tree trunk at people.


Magda Luckbender wrote:
Your friend is just trying to create a fun character, and is clearly not trying to create a super-optimized melee beast. ...

Definitely not. He usually plays a skill monkey type PC. But as Monty Python says, "Now for something completely different..."

He figured the penalties to hit would offset the damage enough to keep him out of the dreaded Power Gamer label. (His issue, not mine.) But looks like it is not possible. So he will probably just use a standard 2-handed blunt weapon and the true primitive archtype.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Gronk de'Morcaine wrote:
I don't think spiked shields, scizore, and the thunder & fang archtype are as primitive as he is looking for this time.

Then I suggest he forget the Klar, just use the Earthbreaker hammer, and take Furious Focus, Great Cleave, and Quick Bull Rush, kind of what I suggested at first. That should be quite satisfactorily crude and brutal.

By the way--perhaps this is academic--but Thunder and Fang is not an archetype: It's just a feat that lets you use a really big, 2-handed hammer in 1 hand and a small shield with a huge spike made from the skull of something dangerous and big in the other.

Sorry, I was thinking of the Thunderstriker fighter archtype. I will check out the feat and show it to him.


I don't think spiked shields, scizore, and the thunder & fang archtype are as primitive as he is looking for this time.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
There is the Heirloom Weapon character Trait. That would allow you to use an oversized weapon. You'd be able to enchant it, too, but there'd be no hope of it being adamantine or something.

Are you sure about that interpretation?


Hmm... I didn't remember that last part.

It sounds like I could wield a large creatures club as a two-handed weapon with a -2 to hit. But I could not wield a large creatures greatclub at all.

Bummer. Sounds like this is a no-go. Anyone know if my reading is correct? Or is there another way around it within the rules?

shadowkras wrote:
My gf wanted to do the same thing a while ago, when we figured it wasnt difficult at all. She wanted a halfling capable of wielding a greatsword (she plays too much TERA)...

You could come real close to that with a medium creature's Sunblade.


Azten wrote:
Well, there is a way for one specific race, Tiefling, to weild Large weapons. One of the alternate options you can give up your spell-like ability for gives the ability with no penalty. ...

I found :

Blood of Fiends pg 21 under Oni-Spawn (Hunger Seed) wrote:

Superior Clutch: Your hands not only are bigger than

normal, but also have a strong grip useful for wielding
large weapons. You gain a +1 trait bonus on damage rolls
when using weapons intended for creatures of a larger size.

But I assume you are talking about Varient Tiefling Ability number 16. Unfortunately, I don't believe those are PFS legal.

If you meant something else let me know, because I can't find it.


I think he is planning to use this for PFS. So I can't make up items or races.

He doesn't do PFS very often, so he doesn't want a complicated character that he has to re-learn each time he gets ready to play. We were talking about a PC he had 20+ years ago. So he wanted to see if he could sort of redo it.

iirc. Using a weapon a size to big for you is just a -2 to hit (or was it a -4?) and if a full BaB class it seems like he's going to hit most of the time anyway. Especially if he has the things like weapon focus and high strength.


I'm at work so limited in what I can look up.

Friend wants to run a Really Big and strong 1/2 orc (will flavor as 1/2 ogre) that uses a maul for large creatures.

Now if I remember correctly, the barbarian archtype that sounds like it allows this really doesn't. So how can he best make a character like that? Understand that there will be attack penalties.

I believe he was considering the ACG Barb&Sorc combo whatever it is called. But don't know if that will work out decently or if he will have to go with some fighter levels to get enough feats.

I think I saw a build like this at some point but I don't remember when or what it was called. Any ideas?


The text for counter spelling specifically says you can attempt to identify the spell.

The argument was:

The oracle was not actually counterspelling. You are only allowed to ID the spell and pick something appropriate when counter spelling.
If you are doing anything else as your readied action you have to have everything specified in the spell and it's particulars (target and any choices inherent in the spell).
So it would have to be, "The oracle readies to cast spell immunity: enervation on Matt if the enemy starts to cast."
Then if the enemy cast on Sara or cast blindness it would be a waste of time, actions, and spells.


Ready:

The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).
Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round.
Initiative Consequences of Readying: Your initiative result becomes the count on which you took the readied action. If you come to your next action and have not yet performed your readied action, you don't get to take the readied action (though you can ready the same action again). If you take your readied action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round.
Distracting Spellcasters: You can ready an attack against a spellcaster with the trigger “if she starts casting a spell.” If you damage the spellcaster, she may lose the spell she was trying to cast (as determined by her Spellcraft check result).
Readying to Counterspell: You may ready a counterspell against a spellcaster (often with the trigger “if she starts casting a spell”). In this case, when the spellcaster starts a spell, you get a chance to identify it with a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell level). If you do, and if you can cast that same spell (and are able to cast it and have it prepared, if you prepare spells), you can cast the spell as a counterspell and automatically ruin the other spellcaster's spell. Counterspelling works even if one spell is divine and the other arcane.
A spellcaster can use dispel magic to counterspell another spellcaster, but it doesn't always work.
Readying a Weapon against a Charge: You can ready weapons with the brace feature, setting them to receive charges. A readied weapon of this type deals double damage if you score a hit with it against a charging character.

I’ve seen/heard/read a lot of variation on “the action you will take” and “the conditions under which you will take it.”

From as simple as, “I will ready to do something if it starts to do something magical.”
Most GM’s won’t allow this, but some have.

To as specific as, “If it starts casting on Jimmy, I will use a swift action to identify the spell with spellcraft, and use improved counterspell to disrupt it with one of my own spells..”
Some GM’s require this level of specifics to allow it to work.

The situation that prompted the spell was this.
Enemy caster. Oracle doesn’t have dispel magic or improved counter spell. Unlikely to have the exact same spell known. Does have spell immunity. Intention was to ready an action that had the trigger of enemy casting then ID spell and cast spell immunity against that spell on the target.

Some people at the table felt that wasn’t specific enough. Some people thought it was. GM was unsure.

Would you have allowed it to work?
How specific do you require the players to be when using readied actions?


Lazurin Arborlon wrote:
Gronk de'Morcaine wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
... while Inquisitors lack an equivalent synergy bonus (though the Teamwork Feats would help a bit, I guess).
Not sure I entirely agree. Some of those teamwork feats can get pretty scary if a bunch of people have them. It annoys me that I can't often get someone to be willing to take them with me.
One keen Falcata and a certain feat spread amongst the melee folk in the party come to mind.

I was thinking along the lines of:

Stealth Synergy - Now you are taking the best of 4-6 d20 rolls. even with just a few ranks you will all be pretty darn sneaky.

Shake it off - This could easily be a +4 or better to saving throws. Have some familiars with the same feat. Sheesh. Now the lot of your are nearly immune to many spells, SLA's, magical effects, and traps.

Etc...

You get that bonus even at low levels. That's huge.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
... while Inquisitors lack an equivalent synergy bonus (though the Teamwork Feats would help a bit, I guess).

Not sure I entirely agree. Some of those teamwork feats can get pretty scary if a bunch of people have them. It annoys me that I can't often get someone to be willing to take them with me.


I am starting to think inquisitor is my new favorite ‘go-to’ class.

A couple of us were talking the other day about versatile classes and filling party roles. And the inquisitor seems to be able to do just about anything. I don’t mean every inquisitor can do everything. But the class can be built to do nearly anything.

If you need a hammer (hurting the bad guys), anvil (interfering with the bad guys), or arm (supporting the good guys) combat role (or even any 2 of them); it can cover it. It probably is the least strong as the anvil, but it can cover that. The other 2 are pretty easy for it to handle.

Note: If you specify your role as ‘how’ rather than ‘what’, it obviously doesn’t work out very well. So if you say, “I will blast the bad guys with electrical attacks until they are dead,” you will find it difficult to do with an inquisitor. That is saying HOW you are going to do it. If you instead say, “I am going to make the bad guys dead,” that is WHAT you are doing (hammer role) and can be easily accomplished by an inquisitor.

If you need a sneak, face, knowledge, condition remover, or skill monkey non-combat role; it can easily handle that while still filling a combat role.

We probably won’t do it, but we were talking about making an entire party of inquisitors. I can’t see any reason it wouldn’t work at least as well as a more traditional party build.

People always talk about clerics being able to do anything, but they are hampered by lack of skill points.
Wizards can do anything, but they are squishy and have to be careful not to run out of spells.
I think summoners come close, but have difficulties with condition removal and a lack of skill points.
Bards are the classic that people say can cover everything, but they don’t have a lot of condition removals and they seem a bit mediocre covering the hammer role, though they can manage it fairly well.

May not be news to anyone else, but it seems interesting to me. What do you folks think? Agree or Disagree?


Every witch I've seen makes huge use of the slumber hex. So I wanted something different.

Usually takes us about 1.5 to 2 years to complete and AP up to about level 16.


Just finishing playing a life oracle. I don’t want the others to get used to thinking of me as a heal or buff bot. Or even just a super nice lovable guy. So I’m thinking an offensively-aggressive witch. No healing hex or buff patrons. Any buffs I learn would be personal only for just me and my familiar. Hexes are to hurt the bad guy not buff an ally.

Also, we are using the optional hero point rules. So I am taking all the hero point options I can get. I think I can tank my wisdom and still be ok by using the plethora of hero points to make the critical saves.

20 Point Buy
Str 7, Dex 14, Con 16, Wis 7, Int 20(18+2), Cha 7 {{ No I probably won’t really dump that much, but I’m trying to see if it would be a problem if I did. }}
Human
Alternate race trait – Heroic (more hero points)
Chaotic Good
Beast-Bonded Witch
Familiar Compsognathus
Patron Vengeance

1 Hero’s Fortune (can have more hero points)
1 witch Evil Eye
2 witch Cackle
3 Blood of Hero’s (gain more hero points at level advance)
4 int +1
4 witch enhanced familiar
5 Luck of Hero’s
6 witch Misfortune
7 Improved Familiar (Celestial Compsognathus) - maybe extra hex instead
8 int +1
8 witch familiar form
9 feat Accursed Hex (can try to affect them again)
10 witch twin soul
11 feat Extra Hex - Hoarfrost
12 int +1
12 witch Beast Eye
13 feat Split Hex
14 witch major Agony
15 feat Extra Hex - Prehensile Hair
16 int +1
16 witch major Waxen Image

What do you guys think?


I forgot to mention. Our campaigns don't have fully stocked magic item shops and it is sometimes difficult to get someone to build something high powered to our specifications. We can't necessarily plan on very specific magic items to make the build. So any 'needed' abilities have to come from the PC not the items. Unless of course he has the capability to make them. (We don't usually take crafting other than scrolls, potions, and maybe wands.)

That's why I was looking at casters to get the proper magic effects.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Sodapop wrote:
If you pick up the feat Equipment Trick (Rope) and the trait Prehensile Whip you can use any rope (Spider-Silk Rope for bonus spiderman points) as if it had a grappling hook attached, as well as to save people from falling, to save yourself from falling, and to entangle enemies from a distance. If you cut out the trait you can still do all of that minus using it as if it had a grappling hook attached (you could just buy a grappling hook after all)...

I love this! I had totally forgotten about the PFS equipment tricks.

------------------------------------------------------------

I guess I hadn't seriously considered Monk. Compared to other heroes he wasn't especially great at unarmed combat (other than the strength of course). And I didn't think of his stories as showing him being particularly wise. He was intelligent but I would have rated his charisma and wisdom both as average or maybe even a dump stat.

--------------------------------------------------------------

nate lange wrote:

peter parker is literally a genius who uses chemistry (and other knowledge) to supplement his super power...

Alchemist!
tanglefoot bomb=web!
...

I've never run an alchemist. I did not remember that they had a tanglefoot bomb. That does fit very well.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Fastmover wrote:
I would go with Magus and use the spells Alarm, Web, Force Hook Charge, Spider Climb.

I always think of magus as scimitar-shocking grasp default. Sometimes it takes me a while to remember that they can prep utility spells. Plus they could use the arcana to gain some more.

Not sure they get enough each day to really seem like spiderman all the time, but it is definitely worth looking at.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Ninja tricks and rogue talents can get some of the effects. But I didn't think it would be for enough of the day to really give the spider man feel. But maybe I'm wrong about that.

And trap spotter really does work as the 'spidey sense.'


A friend of mine wants to know how to make a PC that plays like spider man.

I'm thinking you would want unarmed brawler / sage sorcerer / eldritch knight.
He didn't fight with weapons or wear armor. But he did use his webs at nets to entangle and envelop people. So you would probably want net prof and any feats that help wrap people up in nets.

You wouldn't want many different spells, but you would want them over and over. (Spider climb, bulls strength, web, ect...) He was intelligent but not necessarily a strong personality.

I'm not sure how to do the 'spider sense' thing except alertness, and things to raise his initiative score. But maybe a foresight specialist wizard instead of the sage sorc.

Any other ideas? How would you do it?


calagnar wrote:
Gronk de'Morcaine wrote:
PFS seems to have lots of single opponent fights so the area part of the debuff isn't as good as it could be. But then again, until 7th level the forced movement will only effect a single opponent. Plus I will definitely be getting a phylactery of channeling (I'm not sure if positive or negative) as soon as I can afford it.
The phylactery uses the same slot as a head band. So you can use the cha item to increases the number of times per day, and the save DC, or you can get the flat 2D6 extra. My gold is best spent on the extra times per day and the save DC.

It will probably depend upon my experiences by the time I can afford it. If I keep running out of channels and/or they keep making their saves, then yeah I will go for the charisma. If I want to throw them further, do more damage, or have large buff/debuff effects I will take the channeling.


FlySkyHigh wrote:
... El Cubano: you can choose whether or not to use variant channeling with each use of your channel energy ability. So if you wanted to shunt people around, you could just turn off your variant for a moment, then put it back up when you want to buff/debuff.
Quote:
When you create a cleric character, decide whether she uses the standard form of channel energy or a variant presented here based on one aspect of her deity's portfolio. Once this choice is made, it cannot be altered.

I don't think you can switch it on and off like that.


El Cubano wrote:
I guess as a side note, how would the variant channeling interact with the channel force? I ask because channel force works in increments of 2d6, and the variant channeling reduces the amount by half. Would that affect the distance enemies would be pushed as well?

I don't think so. But I wouldn't argue it if the GM wanted to rule that way. My reasoning is from this:

partial quote from the PRD wrote:

When you create a cleric character, decide whether she uses the standard form of channel energy or a variant presented here based on one aspect of her deity's portfolio. Once this choice is made, it cannot be altered. Variant channeling has the same area of effect, save DCs, uses per day, and other rules relating to channeling energy. Feats and abilities that modify or present alternative uses for channeled energy (such as Command Undead and Turn Undead) work normally with these variant channeling abilities.

A variant channeling either modifies positive channeled energy when used to heal or modifies negative energy when used to harm. When using positive energy to heal, affected creatures gain only half the normal amount of healing but also receive a specific beneficial effect. When channeling negative energy to harm, affected creatures take only half the normal damage but take an additional penalty or harmful effect; a successful saving throw negates the additional penalty or effect but does not reduce the damage any further. Creatures that would normally ignore the effect of a particular channel (such as undead with respect to a positive energy channel used to heal) ignore the variant effect of that channel.

Some variant channeling abilities are enhanced when used on particular creature types. Such channeling increases the normal healing or damage from channeled energy by 50% for that creature type, rather than the default half healing or damage for the alternative channeling. For example, a 7th-level cleric normally heals 4d6 points of damage with channeled positive energy; with the Nature alternative channeling, that cleric instead heals only half that amount (2d6) when channeling, but heals animals and fey an additional +50% over the unhalved value (4d6 + 50%).

To me the bolded sections imply that the cleric has the full channeling listed in the table (ie 4d6 for a 7th level cleric). So he would get the full force effect of the channel. But the target would only take half the damage.

But, like I said, I wouldn't fight it if the GM decides the other way. I would still get the buff/debuff and the force effect.


calagnar wrote:

You are behind on damage with channel as it is. Taken variant channeling is just going to put you even father behind on damage. So I will recommend you stay way from doing that.

Other then that your build is good.

Personally my preference is to not do this build with a cleric but with life oracle. Just take alignment channel evil. That allows you to heal or harm outsides of that alignment. This allows you to do a few things. One it makes your casting stat, and your channel stat the same. Two it allows you to use the favored class bonus on channel. Increasing your channel revelation by +1/2 per level. The down side is you can not harm other things with your channel. You do how ever have a full divine casters spell list to pick from and high save DC.

Not trying to do significant damage or healing with the channel. It is merely the vehicle to throw people around and apply an area debuff or area buff.

PFS seems to have lots of single opponent fights so the area part of the debuff isn't as good as it could be. But then again, until 7th level the forced movement will only effect a single opponent. Plus I will definitely be getting a phylactery of channeling (I'm not sure if positive or negative) as soon as I can afford it.

I really considered using the life oracle, but that ends up being very close to the undead blasting life oracle I'm currently playing in my home game. I think I need something different to really enjoy the character.


chirp


Considering a new PFS character. I have a feeling with season 5's theme I will be seeing lots of paladin's so I don't want to do that. But was looking at kinda similar theme. Here's what I'm thinking. A channeling focused cleric. Not to do or heal damage but for the force and variant effects. Spell casting would primarily be buffs.

Opinions on the following:
Aasimar
Alternate racial traits: considering deathless spirit (resistance 5 vs negative energy and +2 save vs necromancy) or exalted resistance SR=5+level vs evil descriptor or cast by evil outsiders
Str: 8, Dex: 10, Con: 12, Int: 12, Wis: 16(14+2), Cha: 19(17+2)
Cleric (maybe the cloistered or theologian archtype)
Pharasma
Domains death and repose (although resurrection and thought seem kinda worthwhile)
Channel negative energy and either the death or fate variant channeling ability
PFS Faction Silver Crusade
Trait: Beneficent Touch (healing reroll 1’s) and Birthmark (DF and +2 save vs charm and compulsion)

1 feat: selective channel
2
3 feat: versatile channeler
4 charisma +1
5 feat: channel force (push/pull single target 5’ for each 2d6 of damage)
6
7 feat: improved channel force (30’ cone or 60 line)
8 charisma +1
9 improved channel (+2 DC) OR feat: quick channel
10
11 feat: greater channel force (30’ burst)


MrSin wrote:
Gronk de'Morcaine wrote:
Have you really seen one tried as a primary offensive caster? How did it work out in use?
At early/mid game you don't have enough spells and your DCs suffer too much in my experience, but I haven't seen one that went out of his way to jack up the DC's.

Well, that's kinda what I'm thinking. The bio-suit makes it so you don't have nearly as much need for things like toughness, dodge, improved initiative. So you have the build space for things like improved spell focus, bouncing spell, and/or persistent spell.

---------------------------------------------------------

Ok, if I were to go Samsaran with Mystic Past Life (with the max 18 charisma) I would be able to add any 5 arcane spells to my allowed list to be learned.

What do you think would be the very best ones to learn?

Not absolutely required, but if they have a save, it would be better if they are the same school to get the most out of Spell Focus.

Hmm... Or should I be going for no save spells like magic missile and acid arrow?

Some of the ones that come to my mind are:
1
Magic missile (evoc) – basic boring attack spell
Ear piercing scream (sorc) – evoc, damage target and stun, fort save half and no stun
Vanish (sorc) - illus, rnd/level, invis
2
Create treasure map (sorc) – div, find treasure of dead foe
Versatile weapon (bard) – trans, bypass DR
3
Malicious spite (bard) – ench, day/level, make someone work against another, will neg, probably not worth a known spell, but it could sure be fun sometimes
Force punch (sorc) – evoc, force damage and push back if fail fort save, try to get out of melee
4
Echolocation (bard) – trans blind sight 40’, 10 min/level
Dragon’s breathe (sorc) – evoc, line or cone d6/level elemental damage, reflex half


Orfamay Quest wrote:
That's the standard use of a synthesis summoner, and probably what the designers had in mind...

Every one I've seen has been a melee monster build. with just enough cha to cast melee buffs.

Have you really seen one tried as a primary offensive caster? How did it work out in use?

Artanthos wrote:
Kolokotroni wrote:
Artanthos wrote:

It works to a point.

Then you hit your first anti-magic field and your suit goes away, leaving you standing on the front line with your 7,7,7.

Is that much different from the wizard being hit with an antimagic field? At least the summoner then has a d8 hit die, light armor and 3/4 bab. What does the wizard or sorceror have in that anti magic field?

Most sorcerers and wizards don't dump all physical stats down to 7.

CON in particular is usually a 14 for most casters. That's a 3 hp/level difference between the wizard and the stat dumped synthesist. In the wizards favor.

Well, I understand your point. But, in the last 3 AP's (haven't finished the 3rd yet) I have seen 1 anti-magic field and the write-up had that so badly positioned it had almost no affect since the PC's didn't actually have to enter the area and could clearly tell where it was.

I think that if any summoner hit an antimagic field, he would pretty much just be trying to run away.

Also that example was the extreme limit. I probably wouldn't really dump con I would just leave it at 10. That low of HP just scares me.


I am sure this is not a new idea, but what I am thinking doesn’t quite match what I’ve been able to find.

Synthesist Summoner using the eidolon as a biosuit so he can dump all the physical stats and pump all the mental stats. Then function as a primary caster and either secondary melee or secondary missile fire.


  • With a 20 point buy you could go as extreme as 18, 16, 14, 7, 7, 7 before racial modifiers. At first level level, he could have physical stats of Str 18, Dex 12, and Con 13 with 13 hitpoints (7 from the eidolon) which isn’t bad for a secondary combatant.
  • The eidolon would then be mostly just defensive and physical ability increases.
  • Summoner doesn’t have all that many spells each day, but probably would not need to use as many defensive buffs as usual.
  • Minor fights just operate in secondary martial mode.
  • Significant fight use maybe a single spell then go into the secondary martial mode.
  • Major fight you could nova your remaining spells as a primary caster.
  • Though it by no means has the best offensive spells in the game, the summoner does have a few of the most popular ones. For example: grease, the pit line, glitterdust, black tentacles, etc…
  • If those don’t seem sufficient, you could use a Samsaran with the mystic past life to cherry pick the best arcane attack spell of each of the first 5 levels.

What do you think? Has it already been tried and failed?


Half-Orc Cleric 6 of Groteus AC 21/ f f20/ t11, HP 38/38, F8/R4/W11

Friend Varrel, Sir Asherick, and Lady Una (even you little Majenko) self has somber news. Old priest what bought Gronk and spake unto him the glorious news of Groteus coming be dying.
Self must be seeing and speaking him afore passing through great nothingness. Self be not worthy, but self be caring regional Groteus shrine. So few understand the joy of Groteus coming so be no one else for task. Belike try best all be done.
Self wishing you luck. May your temporary lives have joy. May you make things better for all before the peace of nothingness catches up to all of us. Be safe for little while you have left.

With that, the ugly man strides off to meet with his mentor one last time.


Half-Orc Cleric 6 of Groteus AC 21/ f f20/ t11, HP 38/38, F8/R4/W11

There has been a serious shakeup at work. I'm not going to have any spare time for the foreseeable future. Also, I did most of my posting during down time at work. No way I'm going to be getting away with that anymore.
Afraid I'm going to have to drop out also. Sorry about that folks. It has been pretty interesting, but no choice.


Half-Orc Cleric 6 of Groteus AC 21/ f f20/ t11, HP 38/38, F8/R4/W11

Sorry, I am working hell long hours this week. Go ahead and just count me as neutral after voting for the transmuter wizard.
I've looked over the builds and responses somewhat and I don't think I see any significant problem with anyone.


Half-Orc Cleric 6 of Groteus AC 21/ f f20/ t11, HP 38/38, F8/R4/W11

Ok, didn't know that.
I thought we were only picking 1 (or maybe 2 if replacing Shakhan).

I will look back over the possibilities this afternoon.


Half-Orc Cleric 6 of Groteus AC 21/ f f20/ t11, HP 38/38, F8/R4/W11

I did, I also like the transmuter wizard as my first choice.

Second choice would be any of the bards.

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