Great Green God's page

You do see a little trickle out. Dungeon 119 had Shahng who had levels of swashbuckler and dervish, and the Styes (120) uses templates out of Vile Darkness and the forth-coming Book of Madness. The problem though is that some of the non-standard classes, templates etc... just require too much space to explain abilities in to include in an adventure you are trying to keep under a certain word count. My guess is you will see a few things out of the "Complete", "Races of" and "Book of" series but never more than they can squeeze between the covers. That means that classes that have a lot of special rules (Warlocks, Spell Thieves, etc...) will probably not see a lot of print.

That was meant to be challenge to all you writers by the way. ;)

GGG

One of my favorite D&D memories is of "Hard Core Gaming Night."

I'd had a hard weekend (our game was on Monday nights) and I was in a bad mood. We'd agreed to start a new campaign the previous week, but I was in no mood for an evening of coming up with backstories. I made everyone roll up characters the old fashioned way: no adjusting, or assigning scores, just straight down the list. Then I put them through absolute hell.

So there I was in DMing as usual. The players had actually gotten to a point of deep immersion and where only saying things in character. They where exploring a underground system of grottos that where home to a evil group of elves and hobgoblins when they come a cave filled with sand and a giant anthill in the center. And someone says - "Oh it must be giant ants."

You know, even though it was giant ants - you never test your DM like that. So when on the fly I decided to change them into three umber hulks. Well things got a bit ugly and a -small- TPK occurred. Hey I didn't know how the CR thing worked yet. Who knew reach, confusion, and burrowing tactics could do that to a party. Every now and then when they think I'm hosing them the group chants T-P-K T-P-K....

Oh well, slay and learn I always say,

No really, I always say that.

-GGG

Made a secret arrangement with one of the players at the start of a new campaign that he would be a traitor laying a trail for the PCs who were being pursued, he played it to a tea - in fact so much that after they'd killed his character (as we expected and agreed that, should this happen he'd get a level 2 character to start with) they never ever trusted any of his characters again.

I have unfortunately done that with NPCs to the point a lot of my players just don't trust them anymore. So now I give them nothing but nice honest NPCs who their characters alienate by not trusting them thereby making them antagonists.

It must come from running too much Vampire: the Masquerade, or maybe I was just born evil. :)

GGG

Although I did have a character who has a kobold samurai cohort; if that game ever starts up I'll have to take a good look at the samurai too.

Would that be an Oriental Adventures samurai or a the one in Complete Warrior. Personally I think the latter sucked most of the cool out of the OA version. In OA the samurai was to the fighter what the sorcerer is to the wizard. Over the course of 20 levels you lost a couple of bonus feats, but got better saves, better skills, more skill points and some customization. The more current version is basically a scary-looking ranger from 3.0 and doesn't really fit actual samurai who almost never used two-weapons standard (check out the following: Seven Samurai, Shogun Assassin (or anything Lone Wolf and Cub), Yojimbo, Sanjiro, any Zatoichi film, etc....). Heck I think even WotC's resident expert, James Wyatt says as much in OA.

Whew, glad I got that off of my chest,
GGG

Oh yeah, I'll buckle some swash any day.

Hm, the worst thing that I ever did to my players? To be honest, I'm not outright malicious towards my players' characters. Nor have I ever accomplished a TPK, either by accident or by conscious choice.

I'm not actually a mean-hearted monster. In fact I am the characters' number one savior more times than not. Not that they know. Only I know what the real die roll was for that 7-headed cryohydra in Zenith Trajectory's breath weapon. Had I used it half the group would have been rolling up new characters. When I updated that "thing" to 3.5 it of course became the equivalent of Lernean.

That part was my bad. Oops ;)

Speaking of the Adventure Path, VIRTUE reminded me of the no-win encounter in "Life's Bazaar" where the final encounter is CR 18 or so (this in a level 1-3 adventure). In my version it featured a rakshasa monk 4/mindspy 3(Complete Warrior)/sorcerer 1 instead of the beholder. Well, the characters (six all about 5th level by that point - of course I scaled up) would not take "no-win" for an answer. So I applied about four rounds of non-lethal beatdown to them. Oh, they do hate their "Fluffy" as they have taken to calling rakshasa.

Funny thing is they have met the mind-reading shapeshifter twice since then not that they noticed. And yes, he has Deflect Arrows as a monk feat.

So I guess I am a mean-hearted monster after all.

Wink,
GGG

It gets worse. :D One detail I left out: the character belongs to my wife. :D

You must be suicidal, Zherog. Careful though, "gamemates" are still as near as I can tell a rare breed. Cudos on finding one.

:)
GGG

That's pretty evil, Zherog. Worse still because the sword will probably telepathically call all of her intelligent magic item friends and rag on the poor guy.

The only thing worse I think would be a be an intelligent telepathic magic sword with the spirit of your mother inside. I can hear it now:

"Are you having impure thoughts about that scantily-clad true necromancer we're fighting?"

"No ma. I was just err - looking for a chink in her chaimail bikini - NO, I mean ARMOR! ARMOR!"

"Humph!"

-GGG

Alright this is the Dungeon Board so I figure most of us are DMs if not sadists. As DMs we've all seen players loose their character's heads to the green mask in Tomb of Horrors or other similar "unfair" death traps. We have also created horrible monsters and used them to savage our friend's characters into unrecognizable lumps of pudding while they sat and wept at the loss - "sniff - rend." We've misled them with illusions when they depend on us (the fools) to give them the correct information about their environment. And yet they return all for the chance of being a hero.

So my question is, what stomach-clenching, player-wailing, TPK-inflicting, make-you-squirm-in-your-seat sort of horrors have you inflicted upon your party either by design or accident or should I say serendipity?

Sadistically yours,
Old Testament Great Green God

But as demostrated by the Knights of the Dinner Table, even a lonesome squirrel can prove to be the bane of a party of lost and hungry pcs. Did I ever enjoyed reading that particular strip. That particular squirrel was "the cujo of rodents" as Bob so eloquently put it. :)

I know CB. I've seen the errata on them. ;)

GGG

No problem Bram. Though I do like the Ladyhawk-esk body swap thing I would and Medesha's idea for animal companions.

You are all very creative and much too kind to your players. Maybe it's just the sadist in me talking...yeah, that's probably it...

That's okay, I speak fluent sadist. What an interesting idea for a new thread: "The evil that DMs do."

Hmmmm, Bwahahaha!

With a larger group where the adventure can feasibly be run, I take my cue from Gygax in his Notes for the DM in The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun. If the player doesn't show, the character doesn't go. I believe G-Cube (I think that is Great Green God's street name) mentioned this tactic above. Unfortunately the messageboard will no longer let me scroll upward to see what other people have written while I'm typing my own reply, so I'm just going from memory for that.

So does that make OG ("Original Gamer") Gygax, G-Square?

Aight ya'll, I'm outta heiah.

G-Cube
#1 in dah hood!

I currently DM for a group of about 7. I say 'about' because I usually only see 5 on any given Saturday. To remedy this issue I have in the past used the following excuses why people weren't there:

In the previous battle (the last encounter of last session) the character took a blow from an enemy that was poisoned (or magical, stunning or whatever). That character is currently unconscious and will be for the rest of the session - convieniant that.

I try to arrange for a base camp - most adventures have one built in somewhere (town, crazy hermit's hut, gnome village, a ship or a campsite guarded by a friendly NPC of about the character's level). The missing character has gone back to the camp to get supplies, medcine, help or take back heavy treasure. The trip takes them a while (convieniantly enough, the whole session).

I occasionally add a friendly, similarly leveled NPC to the mix.
Since I gear my games to groups of on average 5-6 PCs I have to adjust the CRs and treasure accordingly. For 'thugs' - orcs, gricks, bullywogs etc... I just add one or two more. For the 'bosses' though I will either give them a thug or two or make them slightly tougher (add a level, extra HD, better stats, a useful but temporary area-effect magic item, etc...). Just before it comes to one of the fights that I can't reverse engineer quickly I pull in the NPC. When the battle starts I hand them to whoever wants to play them for the fight.
There is never more than one NPC and I try to mix them up and make them different from anything in the party so far. I avoid giving a party that is lacking something exactly what they need. One it suddenly makes the NPC the hero and focus of the game, and two a party that went into a dungeon without swordarms or lacking healing gets what it deserves. Its their party after all.
I give the NPCs strong personalities and simple goals that I think would be easy to play. So when I hand out the slightly inept yet charming British wildmage everyone knows you play him like Hugh Grant. When I whip out the glory-hungry female fighter with bastard sword proficiency and shield bash everyone knows how to play that too. The NPCs also come in handy when a character gets taken out of combat. The NPC suddenly goes to them, and they can take part in the remainder of the fight.

I also make it a standing rule that if I get 4 players we play. Any less and we see amovie or play pool, cards, a pick up game or something.

Hope that helps,
GGG

I have mercifully fudged the dice to avoid dead in a few places (sort of my penance after a TPK in my last campaign). That said the two of five or so installments of the AP that I have grafted into my own game that have been played through WOULD HAVE featured the following deaths:

Life's Bizarre - Tiefling rogue 4, Dwarf fighter 3/dwarven paragon 1, and half-ogre fighter 3/barbarian 1, all would have bit the big one in the final encounter as they unwisely battled the big bads (in my game though the part of the large floating eye has been replaced by a cat-faced gent with backward hands and monk/mind spy levels. Fortunately it was all non-lethal). Our desert elf hexblade 4, ended up in the neighborhood of -8 hp having been magic missiled into submission by the transmuter. Which left the human battle sorcerer 4 and cleric 3/wizard 1 to stand and watch as the boy went with the nice cat man. Kasmojen escaped into the Underdark.

Zenith Trajectory - The desert elf and the dwarf became (or would have become) frozen food on the grated metal stair leading to the Underdark. One critical from Zenith (who the half-ogre could only hit on a natural 20 - otherwise a 31) took the tiefling from exactly full to exactly zero in under 60 seconds. I passed on the second attack.

The Encounter at the Lucky Monkey - The tiefling got wrestled down to nil by three hill baboons in the courtyard. You ever see angry monkeys with toys?

Bad monkey. Heheheh.
GGG

Problem: Paizo and any gamer who has hung out with other gamers outside his/her usual group has probably heard too much about other people's characters as it is.

Problem the second: The deluge of characters will require Paizo to hire two more editors just to make sure the characters stats and equipment are regulation.

Solution to problem the second: Hire me and I will work double shifts.

Problem the third: I will need to be paid.

G to the third

I suggest that someone submit a proposal to write the adventure.

Done.

-GGG

Here's an idea, ask your players what baddies they like and then fashion a campaign around the top five. I tried this in the middle of a campaign and got a lot of requests for beholders, mind flayers, lichs, evil wizards and minotaurs. Apparently they are masochists.

-GGG

Is it cool to start threads discussing non-d20 games here? I love D&D like you wouldn't believe, if by "D&D" you mean beholders, dungeons, magic missile and such. My feelings on the d20 system, on the other hand, are much less...congenial.*

What do you say, Paizo guys?

* Translation: I prefer to translate my favorite fantasy game into a set of rules that doesn't make me want to stab my face and groin with an ice pick until I die. :)

Oh, you mean Palladium.

Yeah, I know what you mean great worlds - lousy rules. I convert TMNT, Robotech and Rifts into Mayfair's old DC Heroes RPG whenever I get the chance. It handles the horrible combat rules much better (i.e. you can actually blow things up without having to resort to half of your 400+ missile payload and rounds don't last for days).

"AD&D" (in all of its 'advanced' versions) also holds no appeal for me. Give it to me out of a Red, Blue, Teal or Black Box - or the current 3.5 and I'm fine though.

So what do you convert to.

-G3

PS I hope you didn't say Palladium. If you did - oops.

1. Dragons - More than just whatsit breathing lizards with wings, if run correctly dragons add a lot of drama to a gaming experience. I tend to run mine like forces of nature or more precisely like Smaug in "the Hobbit."

2. I have recently been running a Rakshasa monk/mindspy as one of the big villains in my current campaign. I like the fact that you now have four flavors to choose from (standard, the two in MM3 and the fighter-type in the Eberron Setting book). The monk levels with the Deflect Arrows bonus feat was just sort of a sick joke on my part. Bwahahaha.

3. I like gnolls too. I think I like them because out of all the standard savage humanoid races (in any edition) they never seem to contribute anything to society. Orcs and goblins can build villages, mine ores, craft weapons develop culture. Gnolls just bully people into doing things for them. They have no apparent culture beyond their gang and if they do I have yet to come across one of any significance. In my games I allow people to play goblins, kobolds, orcs, hobgoblins and bugbears. I do not usually allow gnolls and I never allow....

4. Troglodytes. Laogzed is probably Trog for Cthulhu.

5. Giants or anything that changes the scale of play. In 3.5 with its need for maps and tokens or minis players really get a sense of scale for large giants like trolls, ogres and wang-liang (telepathic, exotic weapon-weilding shapechanging, invisble giants - they work for the rakshasa - hehe) and a real scare from huge or larger giants. Oh and then there's spriggan (Fiend Folio) who can be small sneaky bastards with Swarm Fighting and sneak attack one round and large (and In Charge) the next.

The current gag in the game I run got it's beginning with Crazy Jared of Adventure Path fame. In Dungeon #102 the party asked the nutty bard about the the kuo-toan (though in my game they are troglodytes) temple of Bhal-Hamatagn to which he promply cast comprehend languages and said what amounts to "'evil fish place' though my troglodyte is a bit rusty."

While traversing the underdark to get there they ran across the wild mage, Random (Random Encountra - yes, I know but it was their first "random encounter of the campaign and it was a silly night). Anyway they ask him if he knows the way. That sounded like a dungeoneering roll all he had was arcana and knowledge of the Draconic tongue (troglodytes remember) -roll-clatter- natch 20! "Evil fish place? My trog's a bit rusty. I have heard of it, but I have never been nor would like to go there."

They eventually get there - and temple actually looks like an "evil fish."

<Side Note: I played this bit straight out of 'Apocalpyse Now!' right down to the crazy Dennis-Hopper-y bard. Dennis: "Bring it in!" PC: "We ain't comin' in there. Those trogs attacked us!" Dennis: "Zap 'em with a flare spell! Zap 'em with a flare!" Dennis: "Oh, the heads you're looking at the heads. Sometimes the high priest goes to far - he's the first one to admit it.">

Since then there has not been one person (they went home and talked to their families and mentors about what they had been up to and everyone of them either speaks draconic or had some slight knowledge of the place. Adventurer: "Then we went to Bhal-Hamatugn to rescue this dwar-." Person they are talking to reacts to the name in shocked silence. PC: "Yes, evil fish place." Person I thought that was what you said but -" PC: "Your troglodyte is a little rusty, right?"

-GGG

Sorry, but there just ain't enough caffine in Pine-Sol for me to make it a drink - though I notice my breath weapon is a lot nicer smelling after drinking some.

GGG

Dr Pepper - please - rank amatures all!
Where is the two liter of Mountain Dew? Where is the Jolt. And for truly graphic stains on a character sheet - where is the Faygo Red Pop?

It doesn't matter if they are hot or cold just drink them!!! Oh and pass the ham and pineapple pizza, please.

I tell you gamers this millenia <shakes head, and submerges beneath the lake>,
GGG

I second that Tzor.
Back in the red, blue and teal box days, when dwarves were dwarves and humans got to choose between four classes, heroes and villains where interesting based on look, dialogue, motivation and mannerism.

As for villain creation; sure you can have a cool villain who also happened to be a half-red dragon halfling ranger but sometimes you have to ask yourself why bother? Just make her evil. Only the DM ever really gets to see the full extent of the awesome stats and hideous powers. The players maybe only see her for one fight. Make the baddy distinctive in approach first - if she survives then go for the flavor. You can't force the players to hate a villain - but when you find one they do hate make sure she escapes to plague them in the future.

Bwhahaha (evil DM laugh),
-GGG

So what exactly is your stance on bards?

-GGG

I'm the one responsible for the elven rogue in the red leather.

So what's his name? And for that matter It wouldn't be a bad idea if these folks were the official "Dungeon Crew" as it were. Not that I don't like Tordek, Lidda, Redgar and company (the Gnome Bard was a nice addition too) but these guys show up on the heels of 3.5 and at the onset of the "New Look Dungeon", well that just screams marketing opportunity.

Oh yeah, and they look tasty too.

The ever hungry,
Great Green God

A point cut and pasted from a previous post:

If there was a Bard-like ability like say:

SUMMON BARBERSHOP QUARTET (Sp): Once per day a bard can attempt to pull 4 pit fiends from his butt with a 75% chance of success. All pit fiends so summoned have handlebar mustaches and a +23 bonus to Perform (sing) and Perform (tap-dance) checks. This ability is the equivalent of an 10th-level (epic) spell.

Now the point is that just because a class has a useful ability (like Inspire) doesn't make it not silly or destroy suspension of disbelief. That's the arguement. Anyone with a bucket of bow feats, a bow and a quiver is useful in a fight. Heck, anyone with a movement rate and hit points is "useful" in a fight.

-GGG

What, you're going to tell me that holding up a cross and saying Hail Marys is stupid because skeletons don't have eyes and probably don't come from a monotheistic society that even had a Virgin Mary in the first place, and then use that logic to decide that turning undead is also broken? Because that's what turning undead is, right? Cross, Hail Marys? Come on, who holds up a cross for six full seconds when vampires and zombies are coming towards them? How stupid is that?

Don't even get me started on clerics. ;)

First off I do humbly apologize for the comments in regards to Taricus' NPC bard. It was not my intent to offend.

Now as to the above as I have said before (and at stupidly long length) I like bards. I don't like inspire.

Sorcerers have innate magical talents. Basically they are the equivalent of Marvel Comics' mutants - so they are allowed to get away with a lot. The four fundamental classes (Fighters, Clerics, Wizards, and Rogues) work because they each have a shtick. Rogues for instance are clever, knowledgeable and can hit people where it hurts. Barbarians, Monks, Rangers, Paladins and Bards all fill niches. Someone in game design way back when said "Hey how about a holy knight class or what about a kung-fu monk?" Someone probably tried making a Conan-esk figher guy way back when and couldn't do one effectively because fighters would be dumb not to use lots of (magic) platemail and a shield along with magical enhancements from other items. The rules supported that sort of fighter - and as a player if you wanted to be the most useful fighter you could be you went that route. So the barbarian class gets made and wala the rules rlect the character. ("Don't make me angry you wouldn't like me when I'm angry.")

Now the rules (not the flavor text) says that the Bard "Once per day per bard level, a bard can use his song or poetics to produce magical effects on those around him.... While these abilities fall under the category of bardic music and the descriptions discuss singing or playing instruments, they can all be activated by reciting poetry, chanting, singing lyrical songs, singing melodies, whistling, playing an instrument, or playing an instrument in combination with some spoken performance.... Starting a bardic music effect is a standard action." It goes on to say... "Inspire Courage (Su): A bard with 3 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use song or poetics to inspire courage in his allies (including himself), bolstering them against fear and improving their combat abilities. To be affected, an ally must be able to hear the bard sing. The effect lasts for as long as the ally hears the bard sing and for 5 rounds thereafter. An affected ally receives a +1 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects and a +1 morale bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls. At 8th level, and every six bard levels thereafter, this bonus increases by 1 (+2 at 8th, +3 at 14th, and +4 at 20th). Inspire courage is a mind-affecting ability."

Now - wandering monster encounter: Characters encounter a group of orcs in a dungeon (hey it COULD happen!). Let's say thirty feet away in a nice long corridor/grotto/room. First round of combat: Everyone goes into their own particular combat routine as it makes sense to them: The orcs charge; the scouting rogue gets out of way; the fighters rush to help; the wizard prepares magic missile; the bard does something considered inspiring. This could be any of the afore mentioned possibilities in either thread including singing "Here we are! Born to be kings we're the...." A similar effect allows him to inspire folks to move silently (once again using any number of bardic music options).

Now my questions are these:

1. Why would anyone complete/do more than a round's worth of inspiring (courage)? Most fights only last about six rounds. The bard could always go "Good job!" and get another five rounds.

2. Why would anyone ever carry an instrument? It's like taking more than one level of Ranger in 3.0. Bards who go on adventures should all be orators and singers and not waste skill points on Perform (musical instrument) instead they would want to take Perform (sing/orate) and use the other points elsewhere. Sure they could do the stylish thing and take up a musical instrument as well and use it at parties and such but why not use them in Tumble or Disguise? You can always sing or tell stories at parties.

3. Inspiration tends to work on large crowds of fans rather than people you hang out with. Any rock star, pro-wrestler, televangelist, or keynote speaker can inspire with words especially if you kind of already know what they are going to say or do. "Whatcha gonna do Rick Flair when Hulkamania runs wild on you?" Elvis' roadies where probably really inspired by him the early on but I'm willing to bet the ones who equaled him in someway (i.e. the same level or higher) where not nearly as inspired after being on the road with him for a while. They became familiar with each other. Also it can be pretty hard to inspire someone who has already seen it all, like most battle tested adventurers.

Now I do like bards and I can believe that a quick "Avengers Assemble!" can be inspiring when - and this is key - used sparingly.

The rules do not support a whole lot of choice for the bard when it comes to inspiration. If the bard doesn't make with the music he will hear about it from the rest of the party. Am I right? So as a bard (read support class) it is your duty to support/inspire your group to feats of courage. That is going to get old quick unless you can come up with something inventive to do new each time. In games that I've seen as DM, player or spectator bards often get played like this. At first level the character is playing the "Battle Hymn of the Republic" with all due pomp. By third level this changes into "I play my horn and pull my bow." or more simply "Inspire courage... Bow."

Now I know we are all brilliant DMs. Why else would we collect Dungeon and then spend hours decrying the loss of one page of space to Mr. Wheaton who seems to still have that aura of I-hate-Wesley-Crusher about him.* So the point is if you want to play a barbarian-type fighter before there was such a thing -i.e. lightly armored all offensive fighter who can "take it." You probably did it once got killed and laughed at by the party's "real" fighter and didn't play against type anymore. You can be any kind of bard you want to be.... but...

GGG Esq.

*I for one don't have an opinion on Wes -err- Wil. I read his stuff (The ogre PC trying to tumble past the gnome was funny), but (there's that "but" again) it mostly washes off. As for him taking up a page - I say let him. I don't buy the book for him. I buy it for the adventures. When D&D started you had to buy 22 page long modules for 6.99. For 6.99 you would think they would find a way to staple the cover on better ;). My gaming buck goes as far now as it did when I was eleven even if I get only one decent sized game out of a Dungeon. That's not bad in my opinion. I will probably never use more than one or two out of any given mag anyhow. So let him have his page. Let Kyle have Downer (Heck, he killed a D&D bard in like the third panel of the first installment didn't he? :) Put in an epic level game or a psionic adventure or even one that is all underwater (heck, put in an epic-psionic-underwater adventure) but only one per mag please.

Oh and I almost forgot. Even if it is magic being woven it needs to look cool and be heroic. They don't carry cheerleaders off the field in glory after the big game unless they suit up and make the touchdown. And nobody looks cool lip-synching Creed tunes in the middle of a sudden life-or-death situation (even in actual Creed videos).

And to all a good night,
GGG

I'm sorry but the cause "it's magic" line holds about as much water as the classic "Why?" "Because I said so." argument.

My retort is naturally "Why? Bards don't seem any more magical than wizards who have to operate though their own (also somewhat flawed) paradigm." The bard's though counterdicts itself. Wizards have to prepare spells (which is mostly invisible in game play) but bards have to pipe in everytime there is a significant challenge presented to the group. It just seems pretty stupid to have to recount the tale of the-guy-who-jumped-really-really-far each time someone in the party needs to. It just cheapens the effect. Bards must specically perform in order to inspire. How they perform is up to the player, still I don't see any amount of tapdancing, stand-up comedy, armpit noises, motivational speeches or triangle playing inspiring someone to move more silently or fight harder (especially since if you are the one affected you probably can't listen or watch). By giving the class this rather lame rule - the bard in question must whip out his tuba and play umpa music for six-seconds before he gets any effect. And by the rules he should be able to. Now why would he want to? He won't if he was smart he would just say "Yo Joe!" and fire his semi-auto ballistic composite bow. Since he doesn't have to stop he can just continue yelling (and he would have to, to be heard over the ring of swords and armor happening about thrity feet away). Sounds really inspiring doen't it? It must be magic because the scene doesn't inspire anything more than laughter in me.

Wizards by the way use super secret wizardary words and are intelligent and tend to carry magic sticks of various sizes and wear robes - sounds pretty similar to the archtypes to me. Bards meanwhile seem to carry whips and ranged weapons instead of actual musical instruments and they hum six-second concertos or shout encouragement from behind the lines. Hmmm not exactly archtypical and if we are talking different flavor of the core concept well then this bard isn't even in the same food group as the literary ones. It's like comparing kibble to caviar.

Bards don't need to be social critters by the "everything they say is magic" argument. Now like the most intorverted, pasty-skinned wizard they can whip up their own dates using geas and charm. Who needs smooth words with magic?

Bards are a complete package they tend to be by literary archtype rakish, charming, knowledgable, endearing people. Sometimes they are played for laughs but no-one ever doubts that they full of hope and a lot of heart. I have always liked the bard but pinning the poorly conceived inspiration rules on them is like having David Hasselhoff play Nick Fury - just plain silly. The rule needs to be fixed.

As for the chain weilding bountyhunter very nice. I'm sure he uses his bardic knowledge to full-effect on the probably famous PCs. Does he inspire his minions with his beautiful singing voice or does he pepper his spiked chain with slay-bells.

Pardon that last pun but I couldn't resist.
GGG

Actually Patrick, I like the idea that bards give a long term bonus just by hanging out around the campfire leading Spock and McCoy in a stirring round of "Row, Row, Row Your Boat". Perhaps characters pass endurance checks easier, heal quicker, can continue the quest on less supplies, etc... That makes sense. The bard being there made the trip less awful. Though I believe that the Bard Class would then need to be balanced in some other way. Perhaps with Insightful Strike or a dodge bonus based on level, Int or Cha (she's just clever or she can taunt her enemy into mistakes). Both of those optinons derive inpart from the Swashbuckler Class given in the "Complete Warrior". Since bards are usually portrayed as swashbukler types why not give them swashbuckler abilities? The bard could still inspire people to greatness (even armies at higher levels) but it takes longer (like a minute or so).

-=Crumbles=- hits the nail on the head. Who is more inspiring in a battle than a Fighter Class character rushing into the thick of things or the Paladin astride her snowy white mount, silvery lance in hand or perhaps a barbarian standing hip-deep in downed foes like Conan might? The singing sniper is not my idea of inspirational. The rules say it works - but I find it difficult to believe.

If all else fails and the group is starving to death they might eat the bard; more cause for rejoicing.

Koombya,
-GGG

Gideonrift, You might check out the Warduke thread on this list. There were a couple of helpful folks on that list - one who was even nice enough to email the text to a few people.

On the subject of Ole Skool Villains (sorry but when you are kickin' it ole skool - you gotta kick it ole skool!) What about folks like Emrikol the Chaotic (from DMG 1st ed. and "Paladin in Hell"), Baron Ludwig von Hendriks and Bargle the Infamous (last seen in the "Grand Duchy of Karameikos") or Strad (who got recapped in Dragon not to long ago)? There are a lot more villains out there that need some airing out.

So Dungeon Editorial Staff how about a "Villain's Lore Book" for the rest of us folks who don't travel the Realms? Unlike the "realm's" book it would certainly be more general and therefore more accept able to the purchasing public. Heck, it could even be a book of "Critical Threats" and then Evard could get dropped in.

You down wit dat?
Triple G - Number One in da Hood, Aight!

I totally agree with Patrick, Bard is from my point of view party's speaker (social), library (knowledge) and support (combat). And with Use Magic Device skill (which is fortunatelly for Bard based on Charisma) he can use offensive magic stuff too, like Wand of Fireball etc.

And I totally agree with him too. My argument is not whether the class is useful or not - If there was a class that could breath a cone of +1 vorpral flaming burst hamsters that did 24d6+24 points of gnawing damage (Handle Animal Check DC 10 + one-half class level for half damage) that would be useful too. It would totally destroy any sense of disbelief on the part of the players and DM and probably make me not want to play said game (I could always play Teenagers from Outerspace for that sort of game). Still there is no denying it would be useful trick.

If you are new to this discussion please refer to my comments in the What's-Your-Favourite-Class?-thread where this all started.

In a nutshell I boils down to this: By the rules bards can inspire groups of characters to competance and greatness by performing for SIX SECONDS (and let's face it unless the player wants to handicap themselves - this will always be singing or something else NOT requiring an instrument). Now is it just me or is that stupid. Mel Gibson's stirring "they'll never take away our freedom!" speach and Lincoln's "Gettysburg address" where I think more in line with the way inspiration should work. No-one realistically has time to listen to someone orate or sing about anything in a typical fighting dungeon encounter. My complaint therefore is that while most of the other classes retain some nominal semblence to reality one of the most fundamental abilities given to bards doesn't and should be changed.

I have yet to hear anything that sways me much from this opinion aside from one person who said their bard acted like a marine drill instructor, which while novel and funny still probably belongs to the realm of comedy. I personally would like to see a class that accurately captures the feel of the source material which would most-likely be Alan Adale from Robin Hood or maybe Luthien from the Tolkien's Simirillion, or Fflewdurr Fflamm from Lloyd Alexander's Taran series. None of these folks spent a second inspiring people when sudden battle was joined. Although they were all quite useful and inspirational and knowledgable they did not start singing or orating (even for six seconds) at the beginning of any fight that I've read about. They pulled weapons and fought or cast spells - that is more inspirational than anything that anyone could say in such a situation. "Look at that guy out there in the thick of things - not much armor, not much magic but trying just the same." That's inspiring. So why do the rules say that the very people who inspired the class the way Aragorn IS THE RANGER - Why are these characters wrong?

-GGG

As has already been mentioned and argued a bit on the thread: "What's everyone's favourite class?" I do not like the rules governing bards and inspiration (See that thread for details).

A few folks (including some who work for Dungeon) have challenged my opinion. However I have also come to understand that there is some support for the stance that the rules are just plain silly.

Read the first few posts in "What's everyone's favourite class?" and then come back swinging!

Ding! Ding!
GGG

Are the message boards so dull that we've been reduced to this?

ASEO out

Well, ASEO I suppose we could always complain about Wil Wheaton. ;)

Alright folks I am taking the fight for a better bard out of this thread. Feel free to join or (or dare you) oppose me at "No holds Bard."

I now return you to your regularly scheduled topic: "What's everyone's favourite class?"

Bwahahahaha,
GGG

PS I heartily agree with Tony, Nicolas and Edgewood about the classes and examples they gave. Especially Nicolas' Kung-Fu reference.

PPS Paul if you want bring your shovel.

Thanks for the offer Paul, but I've got it.

In regards to bards, I personally think that even a simple "For the King" or "For Homeland" cry at the start of the battle can inspire quite a courage and it does not take 6 seconds. The trick is to give the "good guys" emotional reason to fight, not just for gold and (maybe) glory.

Human bard in group I DM is usually singing (he'd preffer to play electronic guitar, but he couldn't do much more with it :-) while shooting from his longbow (Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot), so I can't agree with GGG he is for no good. And btw. in the heat of battle, combatants don't care if the cure spell was cast by cleric or bard.

I will give you the first. The "Yo Joe!" works if there is some sort of commonality between the characters - though the Half-Orc might feel a tad conflicted.

The second part just doen't speak to the argument. If there was a Bard-like ability like say:

SUMMON BARBERSHOP QUARTET (Sp): Once per day a bard can attempt to pull 4 pit fiends from his butt with a 75% chance of success. All pit fiends so summoned have handlebar mustaches and a +23 bonus to Perform (sing) and Perform (tap-dance) checks. This ability is the equivalent of an 10th-level (epic) spell.

Now the point is that just because a class has a useful ability (like Inspire) doesn't make it not silly or destroy suspension of disbelief. That's the arguement. Anyone with a bucket of bow feats, a bow and a quiver is useful in a fight. Heck, anyone with a movement rate and hit points is "useful" in a fight.

I imagine Alan Adale from Robin Hood is probably the basis for the D&D bard in much the sameway that Aragorn is THE ranger. I can't recall a story or movie in which Alan used inspiration the way it works in D&D. Usually he and fellow bardic icon Fflewddur Fflam where in the thick of it with their swords and as I recall gave a good accounting of themselves. They had instruments but didn't stand on the sidelines cheering their boys on. "Go get 'em Rob! You got 'im now Rob! Throw dirt in his eye Rob!" That's called "aiding another."

Then there is that twinkie "singing/oration" rule that penalizes bards that want to play an instrument - puh-lease. What self-respecting half-intelligent bard would do anything but hum loudly while swinging her sword or plinking people with her bow. A friend of mine in the RPGA reports to me, wIng, that your singing bard is no aberration. Bards with instruments are a rarity in the RPGA 'cause you can't fight and play the fiddle at the sametime. The rules support the idea that character the class is BASED on namely Alan who played a lute was an idiot for doing so. Rangers have the paragon, Aragorn, to look up to and Bards have a fool - This if nothing else makes it a mockable class. I say the class (in particular inspiration) needs to be fixed the way the Ranger was so that it falls more in line with the things that make bards cool. Don't get me wrong I love the bard arch-type just not the one in this game.

-GGG

What also needs to be said, then, is that bards can focus on other types of performance than music. And they don't have to just stand there during a fight performing; they can start up a bardic music effect on round 1 of combat, and then move on to other things, be they attacking with weapons, casting spells, using other bardic music effects, or whatever.

Perhaps interpretive dance?

I recently had a bard in the group who would play his horn for one round (SIX SECONDS!) at the beginning of a fight. Six seconds of anything that he could play/sing/shout this side of "Avengers Assemble!" is not (in my not-so humble opinion) going to be particularly inspiring to anyone faced with the afore mentioned orcs. I mean how many movies or books feature a six second pep talk? And the fact that they will undoubtably do something similar everytime the party gets into a fight or tight situation (say maybe 13 times per level, times twenty levels or 260 six-second hiaku's) - well let's just say that "the once there was a man from...." line will make me want to kill the bard as badly as the orcs do. Worse still there is absolutely no game mechanic reason that he/she shouldn't pull out their oboe or hand spoons and play a six second waltz/rock anthem. In fact it is encouraged in most situtations this side of in-game funerals or when the characters are trying to be sneaky.

"Yo bard can you inspire us to be quieter! We don't want the monsters to hear us!" said the klazomaniac in the group (See I got this post back to characterization - Take that Wil!)

Anyhow I love bards just not the way they inspire people in the game and trust me I've tried as both DM and player but the rules don't support what should be in most cases a serious class feature.

Now Paul thanks for the kind words and trust me I have thought about it - I even wrote the first 100+ pages of trilogy based on modules X4 and X5 both of which still bring back fond memories for me. The outline was for about 1200 pages however I realized that my chances of getting published through WOTC were slim at best and went on to other things.

Now though, that I have offended the the powers that be I doubt I will be allowed back on the list never mind in print. ;) Perhaps others will put in a good word for me.

The ever INSPIRING,
Do, Re, Me, Fa, So, La, Te, Do, GGG

PS If anyone is interested in or has already purchased all the assorted rights you need to make the Hobbit Movie a reality let me know I have an incredible script. I even have a marketing angle for it. You can advertise it as "The GOOD Prequal."

When I read through a normal Dungeon adventure, and decide not to use it, I'm only "down" one adventure.

One you do one of these huge Adventure Path things and I read the first adventure and decide not to use it, that's a dozen future adventures (at least) that I'll also get no use out of....

I have a similar concern Yamo. It's outlined in another thread (whichever one has eighty-plus hits. I'm in the 70's I think) that was answered in a timely fashion by Mr. Jacobs. And thanks again for the reply if you are reading this, James. I for one am willing to see this next path through if only because I plan on using three or so of the last one in my new campaign and by the looks of things the next one should have a few I can use as well. I am also willing to trust the Dungeon staff to handle things. However I do recall the days when there were five or six adventures/side treks instead of a mere three in every issue (sure they came out bimonthly but I was collecting back issues).

"Back in the day" I could usually find an adventure that I could lift whole cloth and use nearly as-is in pretty much every mag. Now I still get a lot of ideas and some darn good adventures but fewer choices. One of the reasons I let my subscription slide a couple of years ago was due to the fact I simply could not find a use for every single issue.

As for worth of an individual issue so long as one module looks like something I can use either now or down the road I'll take it at the cover price - roughly the same price I paid for a similar-sized individual module when I was a kid.

GGG

Ah, to each his/her own.

As for the official panel's ruling I feel a bit cheated that they referenced compilations (like "City of the Spider Queen") rather than the original material. I don't know if I would put all of the modules in the G-D-Q series in a best-of-the-best list.

-GGG

Paul there are a lot good classes and then there are bards. It all depends on the style of character you want to play. I for one like characters who go against type in some ways but then reinforce it in others. In recent D&D memory I have played:

A dour/hyper-efficient black-clad cleric dedicated to Hades who when confronted by undead would occasionally fly into a rage and attacked them bodily. They where after all cheating the Lord of the Underworld his due.

A fighter (more of a scottish pirate) with light armor who was a notorious cheat, liar, coward and swindler. He was also quite superstitious and his old wives-tales where often dangerously wrong. Most people thought he was a rogue.

A tall, lightly armored falcion wielding moorish fighter who was all about honor and prophesy though he was also very learned and had the knowledge (arcana) skill.

A cynical wizard prodigy who hated the hypocricy of religion (he actually planned on one day dethroning the gods). He was the type of guy that sees the evil and unfairness in the world and tries to fix it regardless of the cost. It was up to the party over the course of the campaign to steer him away from the darkside.

A female human paladin of exceeding beauty and grace who didn't put on airs or even notice because she was so devote in her beliefs.

An orc barbarian/slave/fighter/gladiator whose life story mirrored Conan's early life as shown in the first movie.

A clever circus performer specializing in trick riding, crossbow sharp shooting and highwire stunts - a lawful good rogue.

Now on to Bards - I simply cannot stand the D&D bard (and the pictures in the books ain't the reason - In fact they're quite good). A friend of mine summed it up best in an email discussion we had just yesterday.

"I have to agree on the way having the bard whip out a harp in battle totally ends my suspension of disbelief. Get a sword and get in here, you ninny. People are dying. Even the very best song only inspires me to hit you for not being here in the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune with me."

Now I love my Middle Earth/Rolemaster bards. I like Fflewddur Fflamm ("A Fflamm is ever faithful") in the Taran series by Lloyd Alexander but no bard in any fanatasy story I have ever read (nor would want to) whips out a tuba, triangle or musical saw in the middle of a dungeon combat encounter and begins to play. I take that back. In the first installment of Downer one tried and he got killed for it (kudos to Kyle). Bards can inspire troops in times of war and individuals in times of need, they can make good detectives and are built to fit most niches but I think trying to listen to some fop's inspiring oration during a fast paced fight involving a horde of charging orcs is just plain dumb.

Sorry for the tirade but it needed to be said.

Paul (and everyone) I for one would suggest looking at the section in the rule books relating to each class' role in the game/group and doing something you haven't done before (except the bard which still needs to be fixed). If you have traditionally played the stand out character (paladins typically are) take a traditionally supporting character class and work with that. Another option is taking a class that you are used to and giving it a different spin. How about a sauve, lightly armed and armored paladin who uses a rapier in a duelist style? Or a ranger who was raised in the wild by friendly aranea spiderfolk? Trust me playing a wide range of character types can only make you a better player and DM when it gets back to your turn behind the wall of fear and ignorance.

-Triple G

So PostMonster, I'm not a subscriber anymore in part for the angst experienced by the above corespondants and in part because when I have the time and cash I like seeing my local comic guy. Gets me out of the lair don't you know.

So what method of shipment are you using and what is a realistic time frame for someone to recieve an issue? Is it perhaps something that could be posted (maybe here)? Could we do the same for the other three mags? Is this perhaps an issue with the printer? Maybe I could help I work in the field. Is there anyway that a subscriber could help (like maybe putting down those extra 4 digits at the end of the zip code). I don't think anyone would object so long as they were kept in the loop.

Hope you get this in time,
GGG

Thanks for the quick response - now get some sleep you have to read my proposals later this week. ;]

Yawn, stretch, smack, smack, scratch,
GGG

'Where's my Mountain Dew?'

This Adventure Path thing sounds like a major investment of pages. Now don't get me wrong I like ready made campaigns - It makes my life easy as a DM. I have everything layed out for me and if I want I can always change stuff to tweak it for my group. If someone dies I can always balme Mr. Perkins ("that heartless fiend! He made me do it I swear!").
On the other hand I also look on the Adventure Path as a major intrusion. If every magazine is going to be three adventures long with one adventure per level tier (High 13-20, Middle 6-12, and Low 1-5) there will certainly be a dearth of high level generic adventures toward the beginning of 2006 and lasting well into 2007. By the time the characters are 12th-level they will be very much invested in the adventure with allies, enemies, prestige classes and what-not (as well they should). This makes the adventures a harder fit for folks who want to use them as a stand-alone, which turns into a major negative selling point for the new subscriber who will not be able to get sold-out back issues (Demonskar only came out a few months ago and its gone already). If I were a novice DM I probably wouldn't want to until the compilation comes out (2008?). It also becomes a negative for us folks who like our dungeons generic or (heaven forbid) like the Forgotten Realms Setting - where the divine beings and twinky Choosen of Mystra are so thick you have to beat them off with sticks. (Beat them hard. Beat them hard.)
I realize that a lot of what I am saying has probably already been considered but still - I think it needs saying. A twenty page adventure is a love affair. An adventure path is a marriage. Sometimes it works great and then other times Jenya, the plot detector, uses her divination to send the characters into a high-level dungeon.

Representing the Devil,
GGG

Although, being the one who drew the current area map of the Cauldron region as a nod back to "White Plume Mountain," I must admit to having a soft spot in my heart for the current "player's handout" version of the area map. ;-)

I don't care what they say I like the area map as it is. Its got a certain charm that is quite undeniable.

Sincerely,
GGG

There! Now will you let me write for your silly little mortal magazine?

I concur on all points. Although I favor the Twins Dragonlance books over the originals - they hang together better I think. Speaking as a Tolkien-Lovecraft-Asimov-Bloch-Leiber-Moorcock fan myself I did at least enjoy the title of "Elminister In Hell."

Or maybe that's the Douglas Adams influence....

I personally would love to rewrite my old party's exploits in "Master of the Desert Nomads" and "the Temple of Death" or any number of other adventures but alas that which is meant to feed the masses is rarely ever cake these days - unless of corse you count cheese-cake.

Say Cheese.

The mostly harmless,
GGG

PS Thanks for the suggested reading material.

Hmmm, with this many posts the discussion must be about politics or religion (or both if you live in Bush America 2.0) - Oh its about Wil Wheaton....

Okay, I'll let you go now.

The thoroughly apathetic and jaded,
Great Green God

my list would look like:

B1, B2, B4, G1, G2, G3, D1, D2, D3, S1, S2, X1, T1, A2, A1, A3, A4, U1, U2, U3, C1, C2, S3, I1, I3, I4, I5, X4, X5, X10, UK2, UK3

Ah, but what about X8?

GGG

Well the site died on me: HEADS... WILL... ROLL....

Threshold of Evil (#10 - See "...Top 30" thread)

Racing the Snake (#105 - Thanks for mentioning it Paul, I must have skipped it in my reading - I'll also agree with Rana Mor and Tears for Twilight Hollow as well).

Old Man Katan and the Incredible, Edible, Dancing Mushroom Band (Nuff said. ;)

Life's Bazaar - (#97 - "They built the city where?" I would love tobe a real estate agent in the D&D world - "'Eurptions?' There's no histroy of it in my records." Also I think its funny how the town leadership mirrors our current fedral leadership here in the states. Irony can be pretty ironic sometimes.)

Natural Selection - (#85 - "Druids vow to save monsters!" Highly recommended.)

Monsterquest - (#10 - Ah, humanoids is the craziest people.)

Abreviated but okay, I think.

Ah well back to my lair,
GGG

Instead of waiting around and letting other people tell us what their "Top 30" are (i.e. Dungeon 116). Why not be a little more pro-active and let people know what our favorites are?

I'll start.

In no particular order:

B4 The Lost City - I would love to see an extended Backdrop done for this classic "lost civilization" module by Tom Moldvay. This was one of the few modules that did everything right even down to the politics between the various Cynidicean factions.

X4-X5 Master of the Desert Nomads/Temple of Death I like X4 better but together they are both good. Master of the Desert Nomads (by David Cook) had great mix of survival, diplomacy, enemies, role-playing and an epic backstory that set it apart from the typical dungeoncrawl or wilderness adventure. The encounter with the bulk of the Master's army was great role-playing fun.

CM1 Test of the Warlords - by Douglas Niles - find a hunk of land in the middle of nowhere and carve a kingdom out of it. Kind of like Civ with frost giant raiders.

CM2 Death's Ride - Shows you what someone else has build and how horribly wrong it can go. Nice villians too. Not high on my list but a fun run nonetheless.

D3 Vault of the Drow - Who doesn't like this one?

Q1 Queen of the Demonweb Pits - Just seeing level four of the web which opens into a half dozen other possible game worlds is worth the ticket price to play this classic by Sutherland III and Gygax. Monte Cook did a nice 3.0 version cover of the Demon Web in the Harrowing (Dungeon 84).

Threshold of Evil - A mechanically great module for high-level play with one of the best/most powerful evil (or was he just mis-understood) wizards ever portrayed gets to strut his stuff (Dungeon 10). If you can find it Dungeon 10 was one of the best ever (6 solid adventures/backdrops - including Mosterquest - play funny monsters, The Artisans Tomb - Oriental Adv. and They also Serve for thieves only).

M1 - Into the Maelstrom - Role-play the Odessey.

I6 - Ravenloft - by the Hickmans. The best vampire genera piece outside of White Wolf or Bram Stoker.

S3 - Expedition to the Barrier Peaks - What fighter doesn't want a laser rifle and some grenades?

Dragon 100 - Had a module in it that might have been called London Calling (but it wasn't and I don't have my copy handy). In this gem the characters are on a quest to find the Mace of St. Cuthbert which leads them to 1980's London, England. An absolute classic.

Well, this is way too long and far from inclusive, so til later.

-GGG

For me at least, adventures need a good, compelling, resonating story. Without a story all the monsters and traps and challenges are just so much dungeon dressing. A couple of things I find in a good adventure are:

Drama: Adventures that give the characters the chance to flex their muscles but also challenges them with there weaknesses are alway very dramatic. Making tough decisions in game play is also good for some drama especially if not all the characters in the group agree on the best course to take. Things can't be heavy all the time though. Drama needs to be mixed with humor and lighter moments or the story sinks under it's own weight. The Lord of the Rings is a good example of this sort balancing act done well.

Unique Monsters: Everyone and their mom has looked though a monster manual and seen the picture of the beholder. Even by typing 'beholder' in this setting nearly everyone here knows what I'm talking about be they player or DM. I love my vaious manuals and folios but I think they present a very narrow veiw of the monsters within. They are of course left that way for the individual DM to come up with the particulars of the monster in question, but I think too many folks take them as the end-all-be-all. What makes Monsters interesting are the particulars. Even little touches like the cultural differences between the gnoll henchmen of an evil wizard, those that live in a wide savanna and those gnolls that practice piracy along the coast makes the race as a whole more interesting. One of the great things about 3.5 is the template system. Now any monster can be quickly customized to a given adventure's specifications and made unique at the same time some of my personal favorites include: multi-headed giants, elemental vermin, and infernal humanoids.

And I think that's long enough.