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Verez

Gray's page

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber. 683 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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I like the preview art for the Strategy Guide. Well, I'm assuming that is the final cover art.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I know the task is just delay it for a few minutes, but 4 PCs with vials of holy water should get rid of it in well under three rounds.


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BillyGoat wrote:
Gray wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
John John wrote:


If the party hasn't prepared with resist elements acid they could suffer an unfair TPK.

An ancient black dragon is CR 16.

Any CR 16 encounter should be quite badass; any party that can expect to casually encounter a CR 16 foe should be able to handle quite a bit.

Frankly, I'd be more concerned about the possibility of encountering a horned devil, which is not only CR 16, but also has the greater teleport ability so it can essentially appear right in front of you and go to town with a +1 unholy spiked chain +26/+21/+16 (2d6+11 plus stun). At least black dragons tend to give you some warning.

Sorry for the tangent here, but am I missing something on this? Greater teleport is a standard action. At best the devil teleports and gets one attack in the same round.

Surprise round - Greater Teleport.

Assuming good init on horned devil, full attack in first real round against flat-footed foes.

Got it. Thanks. I was wondering if I missed a "quickened" or something that would make the teleport faster.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Orfamay Quest wrote:
John John wrote:


If the party hasn't prepared with resist elements acid they could suffer an unfair TPK.

An ancient black dragon is CR 16.

Any CR 16 encounter should be quite badass; any party that can expect to casually encounter a CR 16 foe should be able to handle quite a bit.

Frankly, I'd be more concerned about the possibility of encountering a horned devil, which is not only CR 16, but also has the greater teleport ability so it can essentially appear right in front of you and go to town with a +1 unholy spiked chain +26/+21/+16 (2d6+11 plus stun). At least black dragons tend to give you some warning.

Sorry for the tangent here, but am I missing something on this? Greater teleport is a standard action. At best the devil teleports and gets one attack in the same round.


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Or a separate product line? "The Slow Path": additional encounters and such that can be purchased to tack onto an existing AP. Probably something that covers all 6 APs with one products (if it really wouldn't be that many encounters).


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Khrysaor wrote:
The three words you added in bold would invalidate the following sentence of "in addition". It would become redundant wording and would get removed. Instead they left it like that so you know it's in addition to YOUR next attacks. The argument is that it doesn't say anywhere that the opponent is losing his dex to anyone other than you. This is why there's an argument.

While I disagree with you on this part, I appreciate you're points below.

Khrysaor wrote:


The Paizo staff have said repeatedly that not all feats are made equal. Not all feats are designed to be optimal. Many feats are designed for flavor. The feat still provides you with a flat footed target vs any future attacks until your next turn.

This includes things like:

AoOs from moving
AoOs from using a ranged attack in melee
AoOs from casting
Step up and strike
snake fang
crane riposte
opportunist advanced talent
A full attack from having feint as a swift action
A pathfinder chronicler...

Thanks for pointing out how the Opportunist talent combines nicely with GF. While I'm aware not all feats are created equal, I just can't see how this is worth the feat investment to get here (under this interpretation of the feat).


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Marthkus wrote:
Question wrote:

Wow, 33 pages...this is way too much to read through...

So did anyone manage to come up with a rogue only build that is decent in combat?

I think so... Depends on what you mean by decent.

** spoiler omitted ** but a strength build would be better and has been posted by others. There are even better dex builds.

I think this is a decent build. You're feints should be effective against any creature that can be feinted against, including those with an intelligence blow 3, and non-humanoids.

I'm curious though what you would be doing with Minor and Major Magic. I know that gives you Arcane Strike, but I'm not really sure if any other use is worth it. What am I missing?


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Khrysaor wrote:

Benefit: Whenever you use feint to cause an opponent to lose his Dexterity bonus, he loses that bonus until the beginning of your next turn, in addition to losing his Dexterity bonus against your next attack.

Normal: A creature you feint loses its Dexterity bonus against your next attack.

The bold parts explain what is being modified. The rest of the greater feint feat lists the duration for which it is being altered. This does not say the target is denied dex to everyone as the rules of feinting are what govern this. It alters the duration that feint affects your attacks.

Just to play devil's advocate, I'd expect the rules to state the following if the opponent's dex penalty only applies to the rogue who feinted.

"Benefit: Whenever you use feint to cause an opponent to lose his Dexterity bonus, he loses that bonus to your attacks until the beginning of your next turn, in addition to losing his Dexterity bonus against your next attack."

I can see everyone's point, but it is just a really pointless feat if it doesn't help the rogue's allies.


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Kaleb the Opportunist wrote:


How to use:
Before fight (you scouted first, right) Shield wand, Enlarge person wand to increase reach to 15’ if large group
Surprise round: buff or charge, your choice
Round 1: Choose: buff yourself (while keeping the fighter’s charge lane clear), delay for the fighter, move in to attack (single opponent), or use dazzling display (multiple opponents).
Round 2: Get into position where you can reach multiple opponents if you haven't already. Back to back with the fighter works exceptionally well.
At this point your opponents are shaken, sickened and unable to move even a 5’ step without drawing an AoO that deals SA damage. -2 Strength, -4 to all d20 rolls -3 damage and your AC goes up +6 for a total of +11AC. Keep moving to force them to move. Laugh maniacally as you and your besty the fighter mop them up.
On the rare occasion that your opponent goes first, they still have to get past your reach. As they charge in, use your AoO’s to make them shaken and set up for sneak attacks.

Thanks, Kaleb,

I think my eyes had glazed over while trying to keep up with this thread. For some reason, I thought you were tripping opponents and found a way to raise your CMB. I'd like a rogue that can adequately pull off Dirty Trick or Tripping, but can't seem to find the right combo.


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Midnighter wrote:
This is a benefit for AoOs and if your feint as a swift action. The fact that there is a feat that specifically grants the feint debuff to an ally only supports the argument that Greater Feint is self only.

This isn't exactly true as far as I understand. Greater Feint is not a swift action. The only advantage over Improved Feint is that with Greater Feint, the opponents Dex is lost until the beginning of the Rogues next turn. It doesn't even allow the Rogue to full attack since it is still a Move action.

Thus I thought the "common" interpretation was that the Dex loss was a buff for anyone else in combat with that foe.

Is there anything that would allow Feint as a swift action?


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leo1925 wrote:
Gray wrote:

I also posted about 5 pages ago how I wanted to do a bit of an analysis on how various builds should play out in an AP. I took a snap shot from three APs that I’ve run and have the following. I’ll reference this a bit with my builds below.

** spoiler omitted **

On the traps issue, because i am playing Jade Regent and i am DMing Shattered Star, the number of traps you have listed is misleading.

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

I really didn't mean to be pro or con there, or misleading. Just pointing out how many traps were there, which really wasn't a big number.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Scavion wrote:
Gray wrote:

I'll admit that I wouldn't consider playing a goblin or rogue. I tend to play humans. However, if you wish to play one as a Ranger that's great. They appear to make good Rogues too. Otherwise that is a racial feature rather that a class feature. Weighing the merits or demerits of that would take this discussion even further off course.

Buildwise, wouldn't a dex based Ranger or Bard be able to stealth just as well and in the bard's case better with buffs?

Additionally, the extra umph to stealth you get from Skill Focus(Stealth), is coming from a racial feature =)

True enough. I think either could do that, but they have to focus on it a bit more. And the little experiment made me more aware that you can't just slap some ranks in Stealth and call your self good at scouting. You need to aim more at ranks that are closer to 10 plus your level.


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Scavion wrote:
Gray wrote:
Gray wrote:
That means that if the enemy rolls an average of 10, and you only have a +11 on Stealth, then you're too close to the 50/50 range of success.

By the way, if anyone is wondering where I came up with this statement, it was posted several times that other classes can fill the Rogue's shoes and do it better. I still haven't seen the builds that work better as scouts, and not spend limited resources that can be spent better elsewhere. I could certainly be wrong.

As an experiment, I built one of my favorite Ranger builds (Switch Hitter). At best, I'm sitting with a Stealth score at +11 which is horrible if the group is depending on that for scouting. I could boost that up, but it draws away from other areas that I'd rather have a Ranger excel at. The Rogue however makes this easier.

What level is the ranger? Any goblin or Hobgoblin can start the game with a Stealth upwards of +9.

I'll admit that I wouldn't consider playing a goblin or rogue. I tend to play humans. However, if you wish to play one as a Ranger that's great. They appear to make good Rogues too. Otherwise that is a racial feature rather that a class feature. Weighing the merits or demerits of that would take this discussion even further off course.


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Kaleb the Opportunist wrote:

Battlefield control Rogue: (similar in play style to my 3.5 rogue)

Uses a combination of reach from the whip, combat reflexes, and high dex to increase attacks per round without the -2 penalty from TWF. Usually gets off more attacks per battle than TWF. (Hard to quantify)

How to use:
Before fight (you scouted first, right) Shield wand, Enlarge person wand to increase reach to 15’ if large group
Surprise round: buff or charge, your choice
Round 1: Choose: buff yourself (while keeping the fighter’s charge lane clear), delay for the fighter, move in to attack (single opponent), or use dazzling display (multiple opponents).
Round 2: Get into position where you can reach multiple opponents if you haven't already. Back to back with the fighter works exceptionally well.
At this point your opponents are shaken, sickened and unable to move even a 5’ step without drawing an AoO that deals SA damage. -2 Strength, -4 to all d20 rolls -3 damage and your AC goes up +6 for a total of +11AC. Keep moving to force them to move. Laugh maniacally as you and your besty the fighter mop them up.
On the rare occasion that your opponent goes first, they still have to get past your reach. As they charge in, use your AoO’s to make them shaken and set up for sneak attacks.

Half-Orc (City Raised) Rogue (Scout, Thug) 12
Lawful Neutral Humanoid (Human, Orc); Deity: Torag
STRENGTH 11, DEXTERITY 20/24, CONSTITUTION 14/16, INTELLIGENCE 10, WISDOM 10, CHARISMA 14/16
Fort +7, Reflex +15, WILL +4, AC 28
+1 Agile, Ghost touch Whip S, Disarm, Nonlethal, Reach, Trip, +18/+13, 1d3+8
Acrobatics +21, Bluff +10, Diplomacy +10, Disable Device +23, Disguise +10, Escape Artist +21, Intimidate +23, Perception +15, Stealth +21, Use Magic Device +21
Feats: Combat Reflexes (8 AoO/round), Dazzling Display (Whip), Enforcer, Improved Whip Mastery, Shadow Strike, Shatter Defenses (Whip), Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Whip), Whip Mastery
Traits: Defensive Strategist (Torag), Armor Expert
Special Abilities: Brutal...

What is your CMB on this build? Without crunching some numbers, I would think that you'd only be really successful with low CMD creatures. Not that I think it is an issue. I have a dwarf bard who does a similar strategy but only when it is an opponent who is clearly not a high CMD foe.


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Gray wrote:
That means that if the enemy rolls an average of 10, and you only have a +11 on Stealth, then you're too close to the 50/50 range of success.

By the way, if anyone is wondering where I came up with this statement, it was posted several times that other classes can fill the Rogue's shoes and do it better. I still haven't seen the builds that work better as scouts, and not spend limited resources that can be spent better elsewhere. I could certainly be wrong.

As an experiment, I built one of my favorite Ranger builds (Switch Hitter). At best, I'm sitting with a Stealth score at +11 which is horrible if the group is depending on that for scouting. I could boost that up, but it draws away from other areas that I'd rather have a Ranger excel at. The Rogue however makes this easier.


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Marthkus wrote:
1. With >5ft of smoke from a smoke stick between you and an opponent they can't see you. No stealth check required.

True, but that's not the point I was going for. The primary mission for my rogue builds are to collect information on the enemy so the group can prepare. If you take a look at the average Perception skill for 6th level enemies, it is at roughly +8. That means that if the enemy rolls an average of 10, and you only have a +11 on Stealth, then you're too close to the 50/50 range of success. Getting Stealth up is a priority. At +16, you need to roll a 2 on average to be a success for you group.

The second function is to soften up the enemy before anyone can act. The builds I just posted are throwing out over 40 points of damage (over 50% of a CR 6 encounter) before the enemy can act.

Now throw in you're smoke screen idea and we're doing even better in rounds 2 and beyond.

(It's kind of funny that I wanted to play an Ifrit soon. This would work nicely).


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Marthkus wrote:
Gray wrote:
Marthkus wrote:

Goz Mask + Sniper Goggles + Smoke stick = unlimited range full attack of sneak attacks. Just keep 5ft of smoke between you and the enemy.

Can replace Goz Mask by playing an Ifrit with the fire sight feat.

Which is McGuffin dependent. It was roughly 5 pages ago, but some were looking for builds that did not depend on magic items.

The firesight feat is not, and is accessible by humans which you can get through racial heritage human.

Sniper Goggles only increase your range.

Thanks. That's pretty interesting.


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Gray wrote:

I also posted about 5 pages ago how I wanted to do a bit of an analysis on how various builds should play out in an AP. I took a snap shot from three APs that I’ve run and have the following. I’ll reference this a bit with my builds below.

** spoiler omitted **

I forgot to add a bit of commentary on this. Just by this data, this is what is see.

1. If you don't have at a Stealth score at 15 or higher, you're just flipping a coin on whether you are a good scout or not. With a Stealth of 16, you can roll a five and beat the average Perception check (opponent rolls a 10)
2. Going for Combat Maneuvers is a rough road.
3. Feint isn't such a bad path. Yes, it's feat intensive, but take Deceptive and Skill Focus: Bluff and you should be getting SA most times.
4. This little exercise leads me to believe that the designers have kept a balance in the class. If the Rogue was given much more power, we'd be seeing more threads on how the Rogue is ruining APs.


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Here are some builds that I liked more.

The Archer Sneak:
This is a spoiler, such as revealing who really did frame Roger Rabbit

Level 6 Half Elf
Traits: Reactionary, Resiliency
Str: 14
Dex: 18
Cha: 14
Wis: 12
Int: 10
Con: 11

Feats and Talents
1. Point Blank, Shot, Skill Focus Stealth
2. Weapon Focus: Bow
3. Skill Focus: Perception
4. Combat Trick: Deadly Aim
5. Improved Initiative
6. Snap Shot

Gear: MW Composite Longbow (+2 Str), Studded Leather Armor, MW Elven Curveblade

Skills: (9)
Stealth +16
Perception +14
Acrobatics +13
Disable Device +13
Use Magic Device +11
(Pick 4 Others as necessary)

Defenses
AC 19
HP 36
Fort +2, Ref +9, Will +4

Offense
Initiative +10
Ranged Attack = +9 (+4 Base, +4 Dex, +1 MW, +1 PBS, +1 WF)
Average Damage with SA = 22 (4.5 Bow, +2 Str, +1 PBS, 10.4 SA, +4 DA)
.


Again, the primary tactic is to set up a great chance at scouting, and two SAs before anyone else in the fight can act. With a Stealth at +16, he is going to success in most scouting missions, where anything at 11 or lower is closer to a 50/50 chance of success. Snap Shot and a high initiative helps ensure he is getting off two SAs before anyone else acts and those will be at an additional +1 to +2 to hit.

In addition, he has a decent Perception score to help notice ambush creatures such as trappers or executioner hoods.

The Switch Hitting Rogue:

Level 6 Half Elf
Traits: Reactionary,
Str: 14
Dex: 18
Cha: 14
Wis: 12
Int: 10
Con: 11

Feats and Talents
1. Improved Initiative, Skill Focus Stealth
2. Finesse Rogue
3. Power Attack
4. Combat Trick: Furious Focus
5. Skill Focus: Perception
6. Snap Shot

Gear: MW Composite Longbow (+2 Str), Studded Leather Armor, MW Elven Curveblade

Skills: (9)
Stealth +16
Perception +14
Acrobatics +13
Disable Device +13
Use Magic Device +11
(Pick 4 Others as necessary)

Defenses
AC 19
HP 36
Fort +2, Ref +9, Will +4

Offense
Initiative +10
Ranged Attack = +9 (+4 Base, +4 Dex, +1 MW, +1 PBS, +1 WF)
Average Damage with SA = 17 (4.5 Bow, +2 Str, 10.5 SA)
Melee Attack +9 (+4 Base, +4 Dex, +1 MW)
Average Melee Damage with SA = 25 (5.5 Curveblade, +3 Str, +6 PA, +10.5 SA)

.

I took some inspiration from the guide on Rangers. This Rogue still scouts well, gets off a Snap Shot in the surprise round, the draws his curveblade to engage melee first in the round.


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Marthkus wrote:

Goz Mask + Sniper Goggles + Smoke stick = unlimited range full attack of sneak attacks. Just keep 5ft of smoke between you and the enemy.

Can replace Goz Mask by playing an Ifrit with the fire sight feat.

Which is McGuffin dependent. It was roughly 5 pages ago, but some were looking for builds that did not depend on magic items.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I also posted about 5 pages ago how I wanted to do a bit of an analysis on how various builds should play out in an AP. I took a snap shot from three APs that I’ve run and have the following. I’ll reference this a bit with my builds below.

Spoilers for Shattered Star, Jade Regent, and Serpent’s Skull:
AP Comparisons

Shattered Star

Encounter: Initiative, Perception, AC, HP, Dex, CMD, Feint DC
Boggards: -1 +4, 14, 22, -1 13 12
Daghop: +1 +10 17 53 +1 20 15
Will O Wisp:+13 +15 25 40 +9 24 23
Solifugids: +1 +4 17 45 +1 18 NA
C. Columns -1 +0 14 36 -1 18 NA
Elementals +2 +9 18 68 +2 27 22
Golem -1 +0 21 96 -1 27 NA
Gnaeus +2 +10 17 79 +2 24 16
Sentinels +7 +6 20 43 +3 23 20
Incubus +2 +13 18 76 +2 25 23
Daemons +4 +7 16 19 +0 12 18
Ooze -5 -5 NA
Seugathi +9 +15 19 67 +5 25 23

3 Traps

Jade Regent

Encounter Init Perception AC HP Dex CMD Feint DC
E. Hoods +1 +8 16 11 +1 10 16
Trolls +2 +8 16 63 +2 22 14
Monks +6 +10 16 29 +2 22 16
Omoyani +4 +10 22 59 +4 27 18
Goti +2 +8 21 76 +2 21 15
Zombies +0 +0 12 12 0 14 NA
Statues +1 +0 16 47 +1 21 NA
Ninja +7 +5 15 20 +3 17 12
Kimandatsu +7 +14 24 104 +3 30 24

1 Trap

Serpents Skull

Encounter Init Perception AC HP Dex CMD Feint DC
Charuka +1 +2 14 19 +1 14 13
Giant Snake +3 +12 15 19 +1 18 17
Raogru +2 +3 20 82 +2 20 19
Decapus +1 +7 15 26 +1 20 17
Giant Wasp +1 +9 19 34 +1 19 NA
Queen Wasp +3 +11 19 84 +3 26 NA
Issilar +6 +17 25 92 +6 28 22

3 Traps
.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Scavion wrote:
Gray wrote:
One more thing, can we agree on a point build? Is 20 good?
20 is a great baseline being PFS and standard 4d6 average. Heres a level 6 Inquisitor without magic items. His Spells Known is very free to pick, Divine Favor is the only one he absolutely needs.

Thank you for posting that. I may steal that for when I play an Inquisitor someday. At first glance, the Inquisitor is putting up an impressive 45 DPR, when buffed.

However, it has been mentioned on this thread that SA is situational (not you necessarily). If we are going to call Sneak Attack damage “situational”, I’d like to point out the reliance on this buffed damage is situational as well. It is easy to gloss over the fact that the strengths of the Inquisitor are limited. Bane lasts 6 rounds per day. Judgement can be used twice per day. Divine Favor is a standard action to cast, and lasts one minute (1 combat). In an average day of adventuring, with at least 4 encounters, and say 3 rounds of combat each, the Inquisitor is doing 22 points of damage per round with +6/+6 to hit, when he’s used up his tricks. Or he's waiting till round two to cast Divine Favor (unless someone is doing some good scouting for him).

In addition, he’s limited on how quickly he can get these buffs up in place. I could be wrong, but it is very misleading to state that a PC is going to be easily getting these buffs up in 1 to 2 rounds. When combat starts, I’d guess 90% of the time, the PCs do not have time to buff without significant scouting or research. That means PCs who depend on buffs on themselves are wasting rounds buffing rather than contributing to combat. In other words, in the first round the Inquisitor would be casting Divine Favor and activating Judgement as a swift action, no attacks. In round 2, the Inquisitor is going nova, Bane is triggered as a swift action, and he is at +13/+13 to hit and does an average of 46 DPR. However, be comfortable with the fact that you didn’t contribute until round 2, and you will only contribute at full power for 1 combat, and partial for roughly 2, maybe three combats.

Also, I think if we are doing a DPR race, we are ignoring some of the best parts of the rogue. The strength of the Rogue above is that
1. His damage does not rely on resources that are limited by uses per day.
2. His resources do not waste action economy to implement.

Consider the following.

Scouting
Let’s say the rogue and the inquisitor are part of a unit exploring a dungeon. First, the Inquisitors Stealth is decent, but really only gives him a 50/50 chance of successfully pulling off a scouting mission at 6th level. The typical 6th level encounter has a perception of +8. If the opposition rolls a 10, the inquisitor needs to roll a 9 or better. The rogue needs a 2 or better. Who is the liability when scouting?

Granted it is my experience that good scouting provides the rest of the group the opportunity to buff and prepare for an upcoming encounter. The lack of scouting leads to fewer opportunities to buff.

Surprise
We’ve established that the rogue should have a comfortable time gaining Stealth and thus a surprise round. The Rogue has to determine at this point if the enemy can be taken out, softened, or if he should just retreat to inform the group. If he decides to attack, the Snap Shot talent ensures that I will also act first in the surprise round with a 28. Score 21 pts of damage for our Rogue.

Round 1.
The Rogue needs to make another decision here. If he attacks, he should win initiative. If it looks questionable, he could make one shot and retreat back to the group (He didn’t scout further than 30’ ahead, right?). Or he could make a full retreat before the enemy closes at all. Let’s say he shoots and then moves. Score 21 for the Rogue (total 42).

The Inquisitor also makes a decision. Does he spend a full round casting Divine Favor? Or did the Rogue let him know what was up ahead before making a surprise attack?
Let’s say there wasn’t time. The Inquisitor swift actions Bane, so his attacks are +8/+8 and he does 40 pts of damage. He’s caught up nicely.

Round 2.
Who cares? The real damage dealer in the group (fighter, barbarian, paladin, etc) cleans up the rest of the encounter. The average CR6 encounter is dead. The rogue has done what he needs to do, and he can do it again without expending per day expenditures.


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I’ve been playing around with some more builds. Here are a few to consider. I stuck to the base Rogue class only, no archetypes.

My primary goal with each of these was to accomplish the goal for the Rogue according to the PRD; The rogue is a thief and a scout, an opportunist capable of delivering brutal strikes against unwary foes.

This first one is my least favorite, but thought it was interesting.

The INT Archer:
Level 6 Human 20 pt buy
Traits: Reactionary, Resilient
Str: 14
Int: 18
Dex: 14
Cha: 13
Con: 10
Wis:10

Feats and Talents
1. Precise Shot, Point Blank Shot
2. Focused Shot
3. Stealthy
4. Improved Initiative
5. Skill Focus Stealth
6. Snap Shot

Gear: Masterwork Composite Shortbow (+2 Str), Studded Leather Armor, Various Adventuring Gear.

Skills: 13
Stealth: +16
Acrobatics: +11
Diplomacy: +10
Perception: +9
Escape Artist: +15
Knowledge Local: +13
Knowledge Arcane: +13
Knowledge Geography: +13
Linguistics: +13
Climb: +11
Swim: +11
Disable Device: +11
Use Magic Device: +11

Defenses
AC: 15
HP: 36
Fort +3, Ref +7, Will +2

Offense
Initiative +8
Melee Attack = +6
Range Attack = +8 (Base +4, Dex +2, PBS +1, MW +1)
Average Damage without Sneak Attack = 10 (1d6 plus Str +2, PBS +1, FS +4)
Average Damage with Sneak Attack = 21

10th Level Build

To expand this build a little bit, we might consider the following

7th: Unarmed Strike
8th: Ki Rin Style (Ninja Trick, Combat Trick)
9th: Ki Rin Strike
10th: Skill Mastery

So at 10th Level, our range attack is at +11/+6 for an average of 36 per hit (1d6 plus Str +1, PBS +1, FS +4, Ki Rin +8, plus 5d6 SA). His Stealth is now at +25. Potentially, this Rogue is doing 108 pts of damage before anyone acts in around. Say 72 as the iterative attack is less likely to hit. That’s still over 50% of the average CR 10 encounter’s HP.

However this is not my favorite build. I like some of the Dex builds a little better. I also don’t like that fact that his Perception is so low. IMO a good scout also needs a high Perception, and a +9 is falling in that 50/50 success rate again.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

One more thing, can we agree on a point build? Is 20 good?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Scavion wrote:
Are you sure? Because a character with no access to magic is heavily underpowered in comparison to one that does.

I understand what you're saying, but if we say compare a particular rogue build against an alchemist or monk, and none of them have magic items, we then have a nice base to build from. It also avoids arguments like a rogue who is only successful because he has Sniper Goggles or whatever. This especially holds true for PCs that are trying to do what the rogue does.

I was kind of running into that with the rogue/archaeologist comparison. Not that it was a big deal, but it would safe effort and magic items can be slapped on later if someone likes a particular build. Maybe add suggested magic items as an addendum?

By the way, just to be clear, I only meant to keep out magic items, not spells.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Bigdaddyjug wrote:
Well, finally had time to build a rogue that I think is more than serviceable.

Thanks for the build. I'd like your feedback on what your primary tactics might be. I think I maybe missing something. Don't get me wrong, I think this may be serviceable as you wrote. However, as an example, if you are going to focus on Dazzling Display a lot, would it help to maybe swap out two feats for Persuasive and Skill Focus: Intimidate? That would bring your Intimidate check up to +23, giving you a much higher chance of success.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Sub_Zero wrote:
Scavion wrote:
Gray wrote:


1. A comparison of some of the other 3/4 builds. I could certainly build a few myself, but I can't claim they'd be well optimized.

2. In the comparison above, I'd really like to explore that notion that other classes do what the rogue does, but only better. I suspect there is an exchange for that ability that most PCs wont want to do.

I can throw up a few inquisitor skill monkeys and Bards if you like. What level of optimization are you looking for?

I'd say as optimized as you can get. That way no one can say that the game was rigged. Otherwise we get a situation where the rogue overshadows the inquisitor, and everyone cries "But that wasn't a truly optimized inquisitor".

If you want to build a semi-optimized and non-optimized as well for a baseline that could work as well.

Sounds good. Should we also agree to just leave magic items out? I don't necessarily want to build a rogue that is dependent on a McGuffin. And it may be easier to compare against build that do the same.


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Scavion wrote:
Gray wrote:


1. A comparison of some of the other 3/4 builds. I could certainly build a few myself, but I can't claim they'd be well optimized.

2. In the comparison above, I'd really like to explore that notion that other classes do what the rogue does, but only better. I suspect there is an exchange for that ability that most PCs wont want to do.

I can throw up a few inquisitor skill monkeys and Bards if you like. What level of optimization are you looking for?

Shall we say 6th? It's a level that gets a lot of play and whatever build we're looking for should start to come into it's own at this level. I'm open though.

Please be patient with me though. I can only post at sporadic times, and sometimes can't get on the Paizo boards for many hours (which seems like a long time on these boards).


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bfobar wrote:
I still want to see an INT 20 rogue build. I can't figure that one out, but some folks posted having one without showing the details.

The rogue I posted a while ago was basically an INT rogue. I only used 18 as I wanted to have a 16 Dex. I could adjust it if I have the time. What point buy? I used 20 before.


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Sub_Zero wrote:
Anyway... looking forward to this thread going back to viable rogue builds, that can be critiqued.

Agreed.

Sheesh, I go to work and there's a ton of off-topic posts. Maybe, I can post a summary of the tips I got off here, but I'd still like to look at a few things.

1. A comparison of some of the other 3/4 builds. I could certainly build a few myself, but I can't claim they'd be well optimized.

2. In the comparison above, I'd really like to explore that notion that other classes do what the rogue does, but only better. I suspect there is an exchange for that ability that most PCs wont want to do.

3. This may be straying too far from what the OP wanted, but I'm really interested in comparing the success some of the rogue builds would have had against typical AP challenges especially in regards to Stealth, Initiative, Acrobatics, AC, CMB. I suspect the rogues typical chances of success for actually rather high. By that I mean, he can be confident he will succeed in flanking by Acrobatics, or he will get at least two SA's off in the first round by consistently winning surprise and initiative.


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TarkXT wrote:

Consider seeing the boggards in a misty dungeon deep in a warm swamp. Meaning a 20% miss chance due to concelament in the whole area. Your stealth becomes easier, but your sneak attack damage dies.

For the record the party that this bard belongs to uses a dwarf ranger as a scout.

I forgot to mention too that the Sniper Archetype could easily be added to this build if someone really wanted to take the archer rogue a step further and was concerned about overcoming concealment. Getting sneak attacks on concealed enemies is nice and so is the extra range on SA's.

As it turns out, the group I'll be sticking my rogue into has a barbarian (hammer), Alchemist (bomb chucking anvil), monk (Str based and flank/ stealth buddy). My primary function is to gather information by scouting (sometimes with the monk), handle almost all other skills so the group can focus on other things, and deal secondary damage. When I first started reading this thread, I was set on a dex rogue primarily using short swords and gang up. Now, I've got some more interesting options.


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TarkXT wrote:

I think you misinterpreted what I meant by consistent.

Consider seeing the boggards in a misty dungeon deep in a warm swamp. Meaning a 20% miss chance due to concelament in the whole area. Your stealth becomes easier, but your sneak attack damage dies.

Or if you meet the boggards farther away out of sneak attack range. You could attempt to stealth closer but that potentially drops you further away from the party.

In each of those instances the bard will still do all his damage. The rogue won't. That's really the crux of the issue with the rogue and the goal of many of the builds posted here. It's about beating the limitations so the numbers you've posted can be maintained.

For the record the party that this bard belongs to uses a dwarf ranger as a scout.

Sorry, I had boggards on my mind as they're in an AP I'm prepping for. I'm sure there may have been some head scratching why I chose that encounter. At about 6th level the PCs run into a boggard village. In the scenario, they are pretty hunkered down in a village, no concealment for marsh conditions, and the boggards are fairly spread and isolated. There are some leaders, and such, but with the tactics I mentioned above, there is a probability that the rogue could go from area to area, eliminating most of the opponents with the rest of the group nearby.

Glancing through the rest of the AP's 6th level encounters, it also appeared those tactics would work very well too. Roughly 75% of the encounters didn't have 1/2 my Stealth or Initiative bonus, giving the rogue a decent advantage.

I wish I had more time to put together a little bit of an analysis in regards to APs, and the viability of setting up SAs with terrain and given encounters. I have a feeling it isn't as hard as some make it out to be.


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Fizzygoo wrote:
Sub_Zero wrote:
Sub_Zero wrote:...you characters damage will have a hard time pulling his weight.
But I don't think you showed why or how. You clearly and cleanly explained why a 5th level rogue vs a 5th level fighter is going to do, on average, less damage...by about 5 points...but is that you're interpretation of 'pulling [damage] weight', that the rogue, or any class's build, must do as much damage as a damage-focused fighter build?

This is the part that is bothering me. Please note that I think Sub Zero has been pretty fair in his critiques, and I don't want to come off as picking on him. However, some posters keep comparing the rogue to full BAB PCs. The point of this thread is to find builds that bring the rogue on par with other 3/4 PCs.

Instead, we've primarily got anecdotes that other classes can do the same thing (and better), or we have some fighter builds that show what we already know (and should expect).

We've had one archaeologist build that was posted, which in the archetype description even mentions that it is basically a rogue/bard hybrid. I think (maybe falsely) that I've demonstrated a build that pulls similar damage, but also fills a different role.

I started following this thread primarily because I want to play a rogue in an upcoming campaign. It has helped me come to the conclusion that I'll have fun playing a rogue and filling a useful role in the party.


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Gray wrote:
Round 2: The remaining boggards come charging after the rogue.

I do have a slightly off topic question for the group. In this scenario during round 2, IF the boggards give chase, wouldn't the waiting PCs get some kind of bonus on surprising them. I can't find anything to support it by RAW, but I'd expect the boggards to be surprised when they run around the corner, expecting to see a running rogue, and instead they find a waiting barbarian, wizard, and alchemist.


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TarkXT wrote:
Now keep in mind the bards damage is consistent. Meaning he'll be able to do that damage virtually every combat without special circumstances set up to work for him.

I apologize if it’s bad form to pick up the conversation days later. I couldn’t get back sooner, but I did want to question this.

I may missing something, but I don’t see how this rogues damage output wouldn’t be consistent. In the example above, I excluded the surprise round because I thought I made my point well enough without it. The point is to just illustrate that a rouge can keep up with his ¾ BAB counterparts, correct? Keeping the bench mark at 6th level, I have an initiative at +9, and a Stealth at +12.

My primary tactic would be scouting ahead of the party, probably only 30ft ahead of the group. I’d be using stealth to peer into rooms, if I catch enemies unaware, I soften them up and retreat back 30ft to the waiting ambush that is my party.

So it would rather play out as such; the INT rogue is sneaking 30ft ahead of the group, using signs he moves ahead checks an area out, then signals an OK, before moving ahead.

He comes upon a room of enemies; let’s say he sees 4 boggards. With a Perception +4, the odds of them noticing me are not likely. If I roll an average (10), they only have a 15% chance of noticing me (18 or higher). Even if one notices me, Snap Shot ensures I’m going first in the surprise round.

In this situation, we’ll say the Bard has Heroism up. He’s waiting 30ft away with the group. He sure isn’t sneaking up with me with a Stealth of +3.

Surprise Round: Rogue uses deadly aim for a +9 to hit against AC 14 for 24pts of damage.

Round 1: Rouge should win Initiative here too with +9 to Init, score another 24 pts (48 total) of damage and move 30ft back. The sound of boggards croaking alerts my Archaeologist friend to activate Luck and cast Allegro. The bard is going nova.

Round 2: The remaining boggards come charging after the rogue. The bard now activates arcane strike as well giving him an impressive total of +17/+17 to hit, so he’ll use deadly aim as well (+15/+15). He does 24pts of damage. The rogue has a few options here as the combat is almost over. He could 1) Bluff and move to cover if available, or 2) shoot for another 13pts of damage. The Rogue is now at 61 vs. the Bards 24. I should note that if the Rogue went into cover, he only has 48 over the bards 24.

Round 3: The Hammer of the group is now cleaning up. The Bard hits for another 24 pts of damage and the Rogue hits for another 13 (Rogue 74 vs Bard 48). (I should note here too that if the Rogue found cover last round, he’d be attacking from Concealment this round which would make it Rogue 72 vs Bard 48).)

Round 4: Maybe boggard reinforcements arrived. Bard hits for another 24 and the rogue hits for 13. Rogue 87 vs Bard 72. (or maybe the Rogue goes back to a Bluff, Concealment, and Stealth, which gives us Rogue 72 and Bard 72).

Round 5: Bard hits for another 24 and Rogue hits for 13. We’re now at Rogue 100, vs Bard 96. (or if the Rogue “wasted” his time seeking concealment last round, he fires again from cover for 24. Rogue 96 vs Bard 96).

The point here is that this fairly un-optimized Rogue seems to hold his own. Gaining surprise and initiative should be consistent. I’m not sure that I agree that scouting ahead with Stealth and gaining an advantage for the group is “special circumstances”. I see it as creating circumstances for the success of the group.


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Umbriere Moonwhisper wrote:
i would have preferred that they kept real bardic performances like inspire courage. because right now, Archaeologists are quite selfish the way they are built.

I agree with this too. I also like bards, but I like playing them to buff the whole party. IMO they don't contribute as much when only having self buffs.


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TarkXT wrote:

1d6+3 + 2 Arcane Strike + 2 Archaeologists Luck + 4 Deadly Aim

If his evangelist teammate is working to buff the group you can add 3 more damage. IF target is within 30ft. add another +1 damage.

Some characters are more than what their starting numbers suggest.

I was playing with the INT based rogue someone mentioned earlier.

Consider a Rogue with a Int 18 and a Dex 16.

Feats and Talent Path with Starting Trait of Reactionary
1. Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2. Combat Trick: Focused Shot
3. Deadly Aim
4. Weapon Focus: Bow
5. Improved Initiative
6. Snap Shot

So at this level I have an Initiative +9, so I should be going in the surprise round and the first round if I can pull off my Stealth (+11 which isn’t fantastic, but workable). I have +9 to hit with my bow, and 1d6+6 (plus 3d6 on SA). This is within 30ft, and I’ve equipped myself only with the +1 bow that the archeologist bard possesses. I guess I could have taken Deadly Aim instead of Improved Initiative to bring that up to 1d6+10 plus 3d6, but I guess I’d play around with it a bit as the game progresses.

In comparison, I should be acting before the bard even if I didn’t act in the surprise round. So I most likely did 24pts of damage in round 1. The bard really spends his first round to swift action Luck, so he’s at 1d6+9 for 12pts. Round 2 he’s adds Arcane Strike on top of Luck and hits for 1d6+11 (14). I hit for 1d6+10 (13). The total is Rogue 37 vs Bard 26. Most combats (IME) end by round 2 or 3, but in this round the gap closes a bit at Rogue 50 vs Bard 40.


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TarkXT wrote:

1d6+3 + 2 Arcane Strike + 2 Archaeologists Luck + 4 Deadly Aim

If his evangelist teammate is working to buff the group you can add 3 more damage. IF target is within 30ft. add another +1 damage.

Some characters are more than what their starting numbers suggest.

I'm slightly confused, but where is the +3 coming from on the 1d6? I only see a +1 enhancement bonus on the bow, and +1 from STR. I thought the other +1 was already assuming Point Blank?

Also, can you perform two Swift Actions in one round? I thought the consensus was no. Archaeologist Luck and Arcane Strike are both Swift Actions.


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TarkXT wrote:

Here's an archaeologist bard archer at 6th level for some comparison on the ranged front.

I've seen him drop three arrows down range with a full attack that deal about 1d6+11 damage a pop. Had I optimized him better (he was built to be more "average" and fun to illustrate tactical points) he could easily have done more.

HE typically runs around with an evangelist cleric pushing his damage up even farther between prayer and inspire courage.

If you wouldn't mind, could you explain how you're getting that +11. Is it from buffs from other PCs? Setting up buffs before combat?


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FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:

One final check before I hit the sack for an early test tomorrow, can anyone give me a decent ranged build to compare to? Not a broken one, maybe just do a straight up fighter archer (removes the whole magic issue). Include numbers, feats, stats, and items (do not go over the average wealth per level). PFS rules too.

I'll have a couple builds for comparison when I get the chance. Thanks guys!

(Numbers are important, and be thorough. I don't want someone saying "You aren't as good as the fighter archer because he didn't take this". I want this settled. You don't have to average hit chances, but average damage (a d6 has an average damage of 3.5 btw) is important. Numbers are important to cut past the theory.)

So, someone build a Zen Archer and a Fighter Archer.

Show numbers for level 13 most importantly, but if you want to show other levels as well and I'll post my character at those levels. Let the Ranged Rogue versus everyone else games begin!

Wouldn't it make more sense to compare against some 3/4 builds like the bard, alchemist, or monk? I thought the purpose of the thread was to be comparable to these classes rather than our DPR a Fighter.


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CWheezy wrote:
So I decided to put this rogue up against a cr 5 monster, The Cyclops. The cyclops is pretty close to what paizo outlines as an average cr 5, so this battle should be around 50/50 for who wins.

I thought I’d compare this to the rogue I built on the top of pg 14. Keep in mind my goal here is to contribute to the team, not beat this foe single handedly. In this case, I know I have a barbarian in my group who is a DPR monster. I don’t want to out damage him, but contribute.

In this build I also haven’t even factored in any magic items. This build could also be optimized better, I’m guessing.

So we’re facing a Cyclops. Dirty Trick is a secondary tactic for me, so I’m most likely not going to use it against a giant. I’ll save that trick for when we encounter a wizard or other low CMD opponent.

My relevant base stats for this encounter are +8 to hit, CMB +9, and Acrobatics +14. He has a CMB of 22, and an AC of 19.

Regardless of Stealth or a Surprise round, I should be going before the Cyclops (which really doesn’t matter as he’ll probably spend a round closing the distance), but I’ll most likely be going before the barbarian.

I can successfully go through the Cyclops threat range with an 8 or better. Not an auto-success, but I should be successful. That sets up my flank (giving me and my barbarian friend +2 to attacks). I have to roll a 9 or better to hit, which should succeed for an average of 14 pts of damage. That’s just over 20% of the big guys hp, but I’m expecting the barbarian to do roughly 50 to 75%, and I just gave him another 10% chance to hit. Heck, I’m even expecting the rest of the group to do something.

For playing an AP, I’m looking forward to this. Or does this build appear to not contribute enough?


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Here’s a build that I’m thinking of playing in Reign of Winter. First, I’m building her in a way to synergize with the rest of the group. The OP has a nice thread on group tactics.

Go to [url=http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p576&page=2?On-building-a-balanced-group-working-out-just#1[/url].

She is going to be an Arm for the most part. My goals are to set up flanks reliably not just for my Sneak Attacks, but for the group’s barbarian as well.

Human Rogue; Dex 18, Int 14, Chr 13, Con12, Wis and Str 10

My feat and talent selection could be as follows, but the order could change slightly as I see how the game progresses.

1. Combat Expertise, Acrobatic (Atk +0, CMB +0, Acro +10)
2. Finesse Rogue
3. Agile Maneuvers (Atk +6, CMB +6, Acro+12)
4. Weapon Focus (daggers)
5. Improved Dirty Trick (Atk +8, CMB+9, Acro +14)
6. Bleeding Attack
7. Skill Focus Acrobatics
8. Greater Dirty Trick (Atk +12, CMB +15, Acro +21)
9. Gang Up
10. Skill Mastery

When I compare my attack bonuses, Acrobatic checks, and CMB vs appropriate CR creatures, I should be doing fine. As levels increase my CMB become worse vs opponents, but mostly against Hammer type creatures. At higher levels, I’d be looking to use Dirty Trick to disable opponents that should have low CMDs.
If I can get an Agile weapon my damage is also doing much better, which keeps me in the Arm spot as a member of the team.


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magnuskn wrote:
But I reject the idea of a single big magic item shop. It'd have to be arcane fortress to protect the incredible wealth accumulated there. I'm much more partial to magic items being family heirlooms and the like and having to be found via Gather Information in a drawn-out process.

Do you actually play this out in game? Or do you summarize the drawn out process part before game or in a quick dialogue?


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My groups can’t really get together very often, so I consider our gaming time to be valuable. I’d rather spend time actually moving the story forward. I really don’t want to spend game time shopping.
With that said, my groups tend to be part of a greater organization whether that be a government, temple, or university with resources. The PCs have the contacts and the organization will tend to broker requested magic items, help with the sale of magic items, or create needed items.

If they are not part of an organization, then they need to find someone who manages to deal in such items, which I usually provide in an NPC somewhere.

So are there magic shop in every town? No. Are there organizations and individuals who deal in the trade of highly valuable items, who can be found by someone with the right amount of gold? Yes. In fact, I’d argue that some brokers are actively seeking those who might have come upon large amounts of treasure that might seek to trade.


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Thank you!


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New art please?


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Mary Yamato wrote:
Very good stuff

I've felt this quite a bit. I typically ignore the combat advice when I DM. I may look at it to see if I've missed something, but if the tactics are really bad, I have them do something else.

I've also been that player who made reasonable characters, partially because I was with a new DM, and I feel I've got a fair grasp of tactics. I played in Council of Thieves, and then we hit book 2.

Council of Thieves spoiler:
Then the AP throws a freaking bone devil at the us, at 4th or 5th level? Really? So yes, I start figuring that I need to optimize a little better, be more cautious and strategic in everything. The game slows down cause I'm being overly cautious. I'm wiping the floor with most encounters, and I can sense the frustration of the GM, especially when we hit Liebdaga and he lasts maybe two rounds.

As for Jade Regent, we're still in Book 3.

Jade Regent spoiler:
The PCs just finished off the white dragon. I knew I should have advanced her to a CR 10, but I thought I'd give it a go. She got one action in before falling. We've got multiple archers in the group.


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What level do you have Ameiko at? I don't think it matters much. I'm just curious.

I know you're an experienced DM, and you have a few APs under your belt, but I really wonder how an AP might play out for you with a lower point buy and without hero points. You may be surprised.

You have six players (and some NPCs for a slight contribution) who know how to build a good party and use good tactics. It shouldn't be too surprising that they rock most encounters.

I'm also curious if the archer's damage output is before or after buffs?


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magnuskn wrote:


Running Jade Regent's last module right now, so finally the opponents in the palace have some inkling what they are facing, ^

By the way, I'd be interested to hear how the final book plays out for you.


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Gorbacz wrote:
"Devil's Advocate" wrote:
People like to throw around this moral "ambiguous" phrase, but I think it's pretty clear the Society is just immoral.
Depends what you consider to be "morality".

Depends on what you consider "theft".

Depends on what you would call a "thieves' guild".

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