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Verez

Gray's page

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber. 718 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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I’d love to play or DM a Paladin in this scenario.

You do need to make clear what will make the Paladin fall. For example, I wouldn’t rule that any of the actions so far would warrant a fall in one of my games. As long as he is pursuing a conversion or redemption of the antipaladin, this plotline can be a lot of fun.

I also don’t agree with screwing over the paladin either. For my tastes, I’d pursue scenarios where the paladin has to thwart her plans, and may even have to fight her, but he’s fighting non-lethal, and she’s outright trying to kill him.

IF he is able to turn her to the path of righteousness, the conflicts do not end either. Her former allies may not take such an act kindly, or may want to stop her from revealing more secrets. They may send high level assassins to wipe out such an embarrassment.

The BBEG may also have loved ones or items that are important to the anti-paladin to ensure her loyalty. If she were to betray him, a loved one may be targeted for death as well. So before she can leave her current organization, the paladin would need to secure the safety of such loved ones.


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Wow. Looks like Conan of Golarion!


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Ashiel wrote:
Something that irritates the snot out of me is this idea that a dragon's horde is just it's triple standard treasure. Such does not a horde make. It's triple treasure is probably just what it has on it at most times, because a dragon's "horde" should definitely be its own adventure and significantly more than than simply equivalent to killing three common enemies or 1.5 NPC-classed enemies.

I think I'm with you, but just to be sure.. . In other words, what I like to do when planning treasure (ie hoard), i'll factor in WBL for say the entire 2 to 4 levels of an adventure I'm planning. I'll then spread around the treasure accordingly, so the hyena pack encountered outside the blue dragons lair may have been an equivalent challenge, but all the coins are sitting inside the dragons cave. I'm simplifying, but is that the gist?


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LazarX wrote:
Renegadeshepherd wrote:

A dragon has managed to survive for as long as it has because it did whatever it had to and was smart enough to know what to do. Do you think that centuries of bigger more powerful dragons tryin to kill you hasn't molded every dragon into a perfect survivalist? If it doesn't use armor it's going to be doing SOMETHING to stay alive. Armor is just one such possibility.

Excpet that generally it doesn't happen. Dragons don't go out hunting other dragons. At most they may have a territory dispute until the weaker one leaves. Actually the reverse happens, Dragons are so apex, they become complacent. And spending all those centuries sleeping under your hoard isn't exactly battle practise.

I understand this, but I've never really liked this line of reasoning. I've heard that applied to demons/devils/etc. Creatures that have been around for time untold should have some decent tactics when dealing with shorter lived races. Yes, demons probably spend most of their time fantasizing about murder etc, but even if they aren't 20th level warriors, they've had more time to figure out adequate tactics to deal with mere mortals.

I mean yes, it makes sense that the occasional villain/BBEG is so bad ass that he becomes complacent / let's his guard down / becomes soft/ leaves the good guy hanging over the pit of crocodiles without makes sure he's dead / leaves an obvious gap for a pilot to destroy the deathstar, but . . . I guess I feel lazy using that as a DM. They should at least have a well planned security system if they aren't going to keep up their skills.


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Ravingdork wrote:
Most dragons can't cast fickle winds until they are old or very old. What are they using to survive in the meantime?

In an AP or in a Homebrew?

In an AP they tend to be solo encounters, and I typically ignore the tactics as written. I'm sure the tactics I use are obvious (at least to you and most people on this board). They tend to use environment to keep foes at a distance, or fly. If the AP places them in a small room, they move and go to a place where they have more of an advantage. If an alarm has been raised, they always team up with allies if available (and if it makes sense).

Second Darkness spoiler:
The green dragon did not face the PCs alone. Once the alarm went up, the dragon moved to the biggest room available, and many of the drow rallied near it, especially when they say how easily the PCs were cutting them down. That fight was actually pretty memorable. If I recall correctly, the PCs were fighting it while an invisible drow mage made life difficult.

In my homebrew, dragons of any power tend to have slaves (smiths to create things, squires to tend them, sentinels to warn them, even slave body guards). They tend to live in "nests" with a great wyrm having several weaker dragons in its service. Younger dragons don't branch out unless they are rebelling, or feel they are strong enough to survive in a world that can easily match their power. In fact, I even keep dragons with armor as rather rare. A dragon wearing armor is most likely forced to do so my his/her queen wyrm. A ruling tyrant dragon most likely relies on other magic for protection. As well as layers of bodyguards, and systems to give her notice of any intruder or attack.


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Anzyr wrote:
Gray wrote:
Anzyr wrote:

So... you let the monsters act dumb?

I guess I know why the caster/martial divide is so apparent in my games. My monsters don't let themselves get full attacked (if possible) unless they're mindless. Also any campaign relevant monsters have class levels and thus appropriate WBL.

I'm curious on this one. I "believe" I'm playing monsters intelligently. And I have to add that my group tends to play martials of some sort just because that is what they want. In most AP encounters though, it seems to me that the monster is also not optimizing their damage output unless they close for the full attack. Or if it is a monster that has ranged attacks, they really have a hard time staying away for more than a round or two. Of course this is assuming the monster is not flying, but even then my PCs never forget to have an adequate ranged response.

This may be a discussion for another thread, but I'm just curious on some of the tactics you may be using.

Most standard action spells are way more valuable then getting off a full attack, especially since at the high levels, you will be getting a second spell off with your swift while also moving. For a Dragon, staying in flight with Fickle Winds up and using Maze on the most likely to be a caster + Breath Weapon is way more effective then close for full attack.

Thanks as I'm always looking for tips. Sometimes I wonder if I'm too stuck with old tactics. I also really need to fully read more of the books I have. I overlooked Fickle Winds.


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wraithstrike wrote:

Because giving them armor takes them outside of their CR range. As an example throwing even a chain shirt on a monster give it +4 AC. A +1 cloak of resistance gives it a boost to all saves. Give it an amulet of might fist or a weapon, and its average attack and damage go up.

If you look at the monster creation chart even boosting AC, attacks, an saves by as small as +1 is enough to warrant a boost to another CR category.

I am not saying it makes someone a bad GM. I am just answering the question, and if a GM runs for an optimized group I actually recommend the monster using the treasure.

Now some monsters such as giants use this treasure to meet their CR ratings, but improving on it still bumps them up a CR.

Hmm. On this point, I may have been calculating CR wrong? At least in my homebrew, I've always used the creatures treasure to add to it's equipment where appropriate, and never adjusted the CR. I thought the monster creation chart was a starting point and appropriate WBL treasure was added after the fact without adjusting CR. I do try to stay within the guidelines for treasure percentages (25% for armor as an example).


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Anzyr wrote:

So... you let the monsters act dumb?

I guess I know why the caster/martial divide is so apparent in my games. My monsters don't let themselves get full attacked (if possible) unless they're mindless. Also any campaign relevant monsters have class levels and thus appropriate WBL.

I'm curious on this one. I "believe" I'm playing monsters intelligently. And I have to add that my group tends to play martials of some sort just because that is what they want. In most AP encounters though, it seems to me that the monster is also not optimizing their damage output unless they close for the full attack. Or if it is a monster that has ranged attacks, they really have a hard time staying away for more than a round or two. Of course this is assuming the monster is not flying, but even then my PCs never forget to have an adequate ranged response.

This may be a discussion for another thread, but I'm just curious on some of the tactics you may be using.


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For me it depends on the perspective of the story. For my homebrew, I have dragons who rule city-states, and empires. They have minions who craft all sorts of things for them because they are often in conflict with giant kingdoms, immortals dwelling on the earth, and high level PCs.

If this is an AP, I wouldn't necessarily alter an encounter that much as it typically doesn't make sense (unless is were already in the AP).

However, in an AP I'm always trying to use better tactics than what is included to better challenge my group.

I also wouldn't have a problem with an ogre using potions for example, as long as there was a feasible way he learned to do so. For example, is he a minion of someone who showed him what the potion could do?

Neither would I have an issue with monster specific items as part of the treasure. Magical ogre hooks come to mind from one AP. The PCs can still sell the item and use the treasure for what they please.


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James Jacobs wrote:
Gray wrote:
And would he be wearing an aurumvorax pelt?
SHE is indeed wearing an aurumvorax pelt!

Very nice! And fashionable!


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And would he be wearing an aurumvorax pelt?


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Look through the threads in the section for Rise of the Runelords, and a campaign run by a poster "tbug". His group ran goblins through this AP, and I believe he posted extensive notes on how they altered the campaign to fit.


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Cthulhudrew wrote:

Know Direction AP podcast is now up, with some more information.

Thank you for the summary!


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magnuskn wrote:
Gray wrote:

So I just got my copy of the ACG, and I didn't see a discussion on this yet.

Slayer Talents: I see that the Slayer can get some of the Rogue Talents. However, I don't see anything that would allow a Rogue to get Slayer talents. Did I miss something?

Feats: Some of the feat prerequisites seem odd to me. Kick Up, for example, has prerequisites of Dex 12, Acrobatic, Acrobatics 1 rank, Slayer level 1st or swashbuckler level 1st. This is also a combat bonus feat. So if I'm reading this correctly, this is only really available to Slayers and Swashbucklers. Those who wish to pick this as a combat bonus feat, would need to dip a level into one of these two classes. Correct?

Funniest thing about it is that the graphic depicturing the feat shows Seltyiel, who cannot get it.

I saw that too, which also made me think I was missing something. I was hoping one of you was going to write something like "Gray - open your eyes or have another cup of coffee then look on page.."


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Yeah, I'm still reading through it, and while I'm happy with a lot of the content, I'm a little baffled by some of the prereqs on feats. There are some new feats that could be good for the Rogue, but they specifically seem to exclude that class. Silent Kill is an example.


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So I just got my copy of the ACG, and I didn't see a discussion on this yet.

Slayer Talents: I see that the Slayer can get some of the Rogue Talents. However, I don't see anything that would allow a Rogue to get Slayer talents. Did I miss something?

Feats: Some of the feat prerequisites seem odd to me. Kick Up, for example, has prerequisites of Dex 12, Acrobatic, Acrobatics 1 rank, Slayer level 1st or swashbuckler level 1st. This is also a combat bonus feat. So if I'm reading this correctly, this is only really available to Slayers and Swashbucklers. Those who wish to pick this as a combat bonus feat, would need to dip a level into one of these two classes. Correct?


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magnuskn wrote:
has to stop. Either test what you are writing or don't write it.

Is paizo creating a product where faulty design puts someone's life at stake, like a car? Are they putting out a book on a language that has been spoken for hundreds of years such as French?

Or are they trying to be innovative and get some ideas to market like we see with video games, or even beta versions of software? Consumers continue to buy these products with their bugs and the products improve over time.


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Tels wrote:
If it had not been for Mythic, we would not have won that fight.

And the fact that your DM pulled punches with a combination of under challenging minions and not playing the mythic marilith well. That's not really the fault of mythic.


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Tels wrote:
Does that clear anything up?

Yes, and my point as it relates to this thread is I don't think this is a great example of mythic being broken or OP. I'm not trying to be overly critical, but your game was off balance before mythic was applied.


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Let's see. Maybe I'm daft and just missing some big items here. Maybe your just messing with me, but it looks like your balance problems arrive way before mythic was applied. Here's what I see.

1. Your disarm CMD is off the charts for a 12th level PC. I'd never be that generous at that level. (+5 weapon and +14 from stats especially)
2. It appears that the marilith was so mad at you that she decided to not act intelligently. She's a demon at the top of her food chain and she acts like she never tangled with mortals before. First, she brings a bunch of under CR mooks, when she should have better at her beck and call. She dropped multiple Blade Barriers on a monk (we are to believe she's never encountered an enemy with evasion before) when other options were available (grapple, dancing weapons, . . . ) even then, you can't stay in a Blade Barrier and not take damage as you were allowed. With the save, you are allowed to chose what side of the barrier. Did she even use any of her own 1d10 surges (8per day)? Teleport to gain some space from the miraculous disarmer? Heal? So mad that she didn't notice how easily your companions were cutting through the chumps she brought with her?

Sorry, I'm just saying mythic doesn't appear to be the first issue here.


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NobodysHome wrote:

Look upthread a few pages and you'll find helpful lists of the mythic feats and abilities that are considered "broken".

I out-and-out banned Mythic Vital Strike and my fighter's player agreed wholeheartedly.

I think a combination of increasing hitpoints and saves, and surreptitiously reducing the fighter's damage might be enough to keep a higher-CR critter alive.

There are two threads in this AP section all about issues with mythic game balance. It takes a while, but sorting through them was worth my time.

EDIT: The point being, as you get higher and higher my hope is that you don't have to adjust quite so much upward. I'm nowhere near there yet, so I just don't know.

Thanks, again. I've read through this whole thread, and took notes on some items. I may have skipped some posts or series by some posters, but I got the gist. I'll try to avoid some of the feats and abilities, though I'm aware my DM will TPK me if I limit myself too much. We're very good friends though and if something isn't working we'll adjust and be fine.

I know he won't take the time to tweak too many things. His schedule barely permits getting prepped for our game normally. If I can give him a formula for increasing the CRs accordingly, that may be easier for him. It wouldn't be too hard for me to assist on that either, since him telling me the CRs of the next encounters isn't really spoiling too much. At the end of the day we both want a fun game, and that takes both sides.

I've been avoiding your game thread only because it contains too many spoilers. This is the only one I've really dove into.

Thanks again, and good luck with your game.


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NobodysHome wrote:
Gray wrote:

How would it change the dynamic if the PC tiers were treated as class levels and encounters were adjusted accordingly?

Say for example, you have 4 PCs who are Level 17 / Tier 6, so their APL is 20. We now want to treat them as APL 23.

You then have an encounter that was CR 22 consisting of 1 CR 20 and 3 CR 17. We now want to increase that to a CR25. So we’ll double the encounter (CR 20 x 2, CR 17 x 3 and add in a CR 21).

This would increase the enemy’s action economy and the overall challenge to the party.

As a side, I’m playing this sometime in the future. I’ve been avoiding spoilers, but this thread caught my attention. I know the DM pretty well, and I don’t see him adjusting stats. However, increasing or adding in some opponents to match the party may be a simple solution for us. I’m just wondering if this may be going too far.

I'm hoping this is the one you wanted; there's a LOT to sort through around here.

Personally, I still haven't had a TON of trouble; it's just beginning to rear its ugly head on the horizon as I start Book 3.

I think your idea is excellent -- the major issue I'm seeing with Mythic right now is that the fighting classes run about one-shotting things. Adding more enemies helps immensely, and gives other PCs something to do and something to worry about.

It takes more bookkeeping, but I'd also either maximize the enemy hit points and then let spells and anyone lacking Mythic Power Attack do double damage (so those non-fighting-types can feel useful) or cut fighter damage in half.

My party tends to be extremely tactics-oriented, but now that they've learned that the rules of Mythic are, "Buff the fighter and drop him on the bad guy's head" that's what they're doing. Adding enough bad guys that this would be unhealthy for the fighter and the rest of the team would make them re-think their tactics in interesting ways, and I think would definitely lead to more satisfying combats.

In other words, a long-winded way of saying,...

Yes, that was it. Thank you.

In a way, I wish I had access to the books to play around with increasing the CRs on the encounters. I can imagine that the last books would be especially problematic. I may be wrong, but I believe the PCs end up at level 20 with 10 tiers for an APL of 25. If I treat tiers to equal class levels, that is then an APL of 30. It gets harder to add difficulty, if say the bad guy isn’t close to an appropriate CR.


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NobodysHome wrote:

Just upping hit points isn't a reasonable solution because it eliminates the effectiveness of the other party members (blaster caster, fighting/buffing cleric). Do I just tell them, "Sorry, but the fighter does so much damage I'm afraid I have to make you even more ineffective than you already feel."

It's far more complex than just hit points. I liked Eusteryiax because his incorporeality reduced the fighter's damage by half, but didn't affect the blaster's mythic magic missiles. It ended up being a balanced fight where party members did roughly equivalent damage.

That's the kind of solution I'm looking into; more of a, "How do I make sure everyone can contribute?", rather than, "How do I make monsters so tough the fighter can't one-shot 'em, and everyone else should be focusing on battlefield control 'cause they're not going to get in enough damage anyway..."

I agree that increasing HP doesn't sound like a solution. I'd love your thoughts on what I proposed above without giving too many spoilers.

If the challenges are a better match, I think it would work for us, but your opinions thus far have been pretty reasonable and well thought out.

Otherwise, I'm about done following this thread entirely.


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@ Raltus - your points seem good. I just can't comment as I don't have access to the AP. I'm more interested so I can give advice to my DM, who does not alter APs and doesn't read these boards.

@ Tels - I'm not trying to derail the topic by over analyzing your scenarios. However, if I can apply a formula of Tier = class level (approximately) then I may have a solution that will work for our group. It appears possible with some of your examples, but your APL 14 vs EL 22 is out there, even if it was a tough fight.

Another solution may be to do this in addition to the enhanced stat sheets mentioned earlier in the thread.


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Tels wrote:
Gray wrote:
Tels wrote:

the encounter with the Mariliths we were level 12/MT 2,

This one is harder to reconcile. If I were to consider the group APL at 14, that's still too much of a disparity.

It was an interesting fight as we could both only just hurt each other. She took personal affront to the fact I disarmed her of all her weapons, and so it became a slug fest between the two of us.

How exactly, did the monk disarm the mythic marilith? Her CMD is 47 to be disarmed. At 12th level, what is his CMB to disarm? Even disarmed, she can use Greater Infuse Weapons as an immediate action to apply the Dancing ability to her weapons. The monk should have been attacked all those rounds by dancing weapons as well as the mythic marilith’s slam attacks.

I can’t help but think I’m missing something here. At 12/tier 2, your group basically took on a CR 22 encounter. (Epic Marilith = CR 21, 2 Mariliths, 10 Vrocks, and 10 Succubi). I can’t think that mythic is that unbalanced.


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Thanks, Tels

Tels wrote:
the encounter with the Tarn Linnorm we were level 13/MT 3.

If I were to consider the group as 16th level, I could live with this, kinda.

Tels wrote:

the encounter with the Mariliths we were level 12/MT 2,

This one is harder to reconcile. If I were to consider the group APL at 14, that's still too much of a disparity.


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Sorry, I was just trying to get a grasp of the party level vs the encounters. My high level games tend to be crazy without mythic. I wouldn’t be shocked by a 17th level party dropping a Tarn Linnorn (CR 20) in one round of full attacks. If you were playing PCs who were 11th/ tier 1 at that point, then yes, I'm with you.

The other encounters don’t seem good challenges either. In an encounter with an epic marilith (CR 21), 10 vrocks and 10 succubi are basically just taking up space no matter if mythic is involved or not. The only other threats were the two other mariliths. Again, depends on what level you were at that time.

Against level 11/ tier 1 PCs, bodaks aren’t a big threat either at CR 8. The banshee is in range. Regular minotaurs are speed bumps, and even a mythic minotaur is still not close to a challenge for 11th level PCs.


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Tels wrote:

Between the Barbarian 2-handing a greataxe, the Fighter 2-handing a Falchion, and the Fighter with Mythic Power Attack and Mythic Improved Crit, and the Wizard with ultimate versatility (and Dazing Fireballs), combat became a joke.

Like at one point we fought, in one encounter, a Mythic Marilith, 2 normal Mariliths, 10 Vrock (who attempted to summon then danced) and 10 succubi (who summoned then charm bombed). The Mariliths all attempted to summon another Marilith with 1 success. Anyway, my Wizard threw out a Dazing Wall of Fire which forced a number of creatures were then dazed for 4 rounds. Every round after if they took damage they had to save again or reset the daze duration.

Another time, we had got into an encounter with 10 Nelfeshnee, 10 Vrcok, 10 Succubi, and 10 of another demon I can't remember. We were running around slaughtering them when mid fight, a CR 20 Tarn Linnorm burst it's way through the wall 300 odd feet across the room.

What were the PC class and tier levels on these encounters?


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How would it change the dynamic if the PC tiers were treated as class levels and encounters were adjusted accordingly?
Say for example, you have 4 PCs who are Level 17 / Tier 6, so their APL is 20. We now want to treat them as APL 23.

You then have an encounter that was CR 22 consisting of 1 CR 20 and 3 CR 17. We now want to increase that to a CR25. So we’ll double the encounter (CR 20 x 2, CR 17 x 3 and add in a CR 21).

This would increase the enemy’s action economy and the overall challenge to the party.

As a side, I’m playing this sometime in the future. I’ve been avoiding spoilers, but this thread caught my attention. I know the DM pretty well, and I don’t see him adjusting stats. However, increasing or adding in some opponents to match the party may be a simple solution for us. I’m just wondering if this may be going too far.


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Seldriss wrote:

So I consider looking for official Pathfinder or third party.

But I don't want a homebrewed one, I prefer something from a published source, for reference.

Have you considered the Sibeccai from Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed?


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My players don’t tend to enjoy real sandbox style play. Unless there is a clear goal, I tend to get a lot of “what am I doing? Why am I even here?” Being “adventurers” and just “adventuring” has never made much sense. So my style of railroading has been to make sure the PCs are part of some larger society or organization.

In my favorite longest running homebrew, the PCs were members of a human empire’s legion. They were part of a special unit that was sent on special missions. At low levels this meant reconnaissance, special guard duties, etc. As they gained power, they became more involved in politics, were given more freedom, and eventually led factions of their own against enemies of the empire.

Other groups have been free-mercenary units (like the Black Company), exploration and study teams sent to explore strange lands (Stargate-ish), or scholars from a university (Congo). While this may not seem like a railroad, having everyone start with the idea of being part of a larger goal or organization will make your plot hooks more attractive (if they would be of interest to that group). A rebellion has erupted in a frontier town? The special military unit probably wouldn’t need to be asked to investigate. The paid for hire mercenaries might decide to sit back. The scholars would most likely leave that to others to handle.

Once I know the type of group I’m working with then I plan a rough outline of the campaign, but I don’t plan details much further than 2 or 3 levels above where they are at. I’ve still been thrown by some of the groups decisions. For example, I thought the group would join a movement to lead a section of the empires citizens to safety and kinda had a big arc planned on how they would do it. Instead, they decided they’d rather die than give up territory to the enemy. That may sound minor but it was like rewriting 12 encounters.


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Marthkus wrote:
Mammoth thread with builds throughout it

A lot of the builds are summarized in a doc by the OP near the end of the thread.


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I forgot to add; so Thank you, TM.


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For what it is worth, I'm playing a dwarven bard in CoT. I took some hints from TM's guide, knowing I wasn't going to have an "optimized" character. However, I wanted to play an eccentric dwarven story-teller who likes to wade into battle belting out drinking songs. So, he's primarily a buffer, but I've invested feats into trip and the whip. When a cleric, wizard, or some other enemy who I know may have a low CMD shows up, I pull out the whip. We're 9th right now, so we'll see if it still remains to be effective. However, there've been a few encounters where I've shut down the primary BBEG with trips. I think it's perfect to bring it out only in certain situations. If it was as effective all the time, I'd just be ticking off the DM.


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James Jacobs wrote:
FallenDabus wrote:
Does the cover have to change? Because its pretty ballin' as it is.
It does. And trust me, it's better.

I'm looking forward to seeing that. Should be soon, I hope.


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I like the preview art for the Strategy Guide. Well, I'm assuming that is the final cover art.


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I know the task is just delay it for a few minutes, but 4 PCs with vials of holy water should get rid of it in well under three rounds.


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BillyGoat wrote:
Gray wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
John John wrote:


If the party hasn't prepared with resist elements acid they could suffer an unfair TPK.

An ancient black dragon is CR 16.

Any CR 16 encounter should be quite badass; any party that can expect to casually encounter a CR 16 foe should be able to handle quite a bit.

Frankly, I'd be more concerned about the possibility of encountering a horned devil, which is not only CR 16, but also has the greater teleport ability so it can essentially appear right in front of you and go to town with a +1 unholy spiked chain +26/+21/+16 (2d6+11 plus stun). At least black dragons tend to give you some warning.

Sorry for the tangent here, but am I missing something on this? Greater teleport is a standard action. At best the devil teleports and gets one attack in the same round.

Surprise round - Greater Teleport.

Assuming good init on horned devil, full attack in first real round against flat-footed foes.

Got it. Thanks. I was wondering if I missed a "quickened" or something that would make the teleport faster.


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Orfamay Quest wrote:
John John wrote:


If the party hasn't prepared with resist elements acid they could suffer an unfair TPK.

An ancient black dragon is CR 16.

Any CR 16 encounter should be quite badass; any party that can expect to casually encounter a CR 16 foe should be able to handle quite a bit.

Frankly, I'd be more concerned about the possibility of encountering a horned devil, which is not only CR 16, but also has the greater teleport ability so it can essentially appear right in front of you and go to town with a +1 unholy spiked chain +26/+21/+16 (2d6+11 plus stun). At least black dragons tend to give you some warning.

Sorry for the tangent here, but am I missing something on this? Greater teleport is a standard action. At best the devil teleports and gets one attack in the same round.


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Or a separate product line? "The Slow Path": additional encounters and such that can be purchased to tack onto an existing AP. Probably something that covers all 6 APs with one products (if it really wouldn't be that many encounters).


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Khrysaor wrote:
The three words you added in bold would invalidate the following sentence of "in addition". It would become redundant wording and would get removed. Instead they left it like that so you know it's in addition to YOUR next attacks. The argument is that it doesn't say anywhere that the opponent is losing his dex to anyone other than you. This is why there's an argument.

While I disagree with you on this part, I appreciate you're points below.

Khrysaor wrote:


The Paizo staff have said repeatedly that not all feats are made equal. Not all feats are designed to be optimal. Many feats are designed for flavor. The feat still provides you with a flat footed target vs any future attacks until your next turn.

This includes things like:

AoOs from moving
AoOs from using a ranged attack in melee
AoOs from casting
Step up and strike
snake fang
crane riposte
opportunist advanced talent
A full attack from having feint as a swift action
A pathfinder chronicler...

Thanks for pointing out how the Opportunist talent combines nicely with GF. While I'm aware not all feats are created equal, I just can't see how this is worth the feat investment to get here (under this interpretation of the feat).


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Marthkus wrote:
Question wrote:

Wow, 33 pages...this is way too much to read through...

So did anyone manage to come up with a rogue only build that is decent in combat?

I think so... Depends on what you mean by decent.

** spoiler omitted ** but a strength build would be better and has been posted by others. There are even better dex builds.

I think this is a decent build. You're feints should be effective against any creature that can be feinted against, including those with an intelligence blow 3, and non-humanoids.

I'm curious though what you would be doing with Minor and Major Magic. I know that gives you Arcane Strike, but I'm not really sure if any other use is worth it. What am I missing?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Khrysaor wrote:

Benefit: Whenever you use feint to cause an opponent to lose his Dexterity bonus, he loses that bonus until the beginning of your next turn, in addition to losing his Dexterity bonus against your next attack.

Normal: A creature you feint loses its Dexterity bonus against your next attack.

The bold parts explain what is being modified. The rest of the greater feint feat lists the duration for which it is being altered. This does not say the target is denied dex to everyone as the rules of feinting are what govern this. It alters the duration that feint affects your attacks.

Just to play devil's advocate, I'd expect the rules to state the following if the opponent's dex penalty only applies to the rogue who feinted.

"Benefit: Whenever you use feint to cause an opponent to lose his Dexterity bonus, he loses that bonus to your attacks until the beginning of your next turn, in addition to losing his Dexterity bonus against your next attack."

I can see everyone's point, but it is just a really pointless feat if it doesn't help the rogue's allies.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Kaleb the Opportunist wrote:


How to use:
Before fight (you scouted first, right) Shield wand, Enlarge person wand to increase reach to 15’ if large group
Surprise round: buff or charge, your choice
Round 1: Choose: buff yourself (while keeping the fighter’s charge lane clear), delay for the fighter, move in to attack (single opponent), or use dazzling display (multiple opponents).
Round 2: Get into position where you can reach multiple opponents if you haven't already. Back to back with the fighter works exceptionally well.
At this point your opponents are shaken, sickened and unable to move even a 5’ step without drawing an AoO that deals SA damage. -2 Strength, -4 to all d20 rolls -3 damage and your AC goes up +6 for a total of +11AC. Keep moving to force them to move. Laugh maniacally as you and your besty the fighter mop them up.
On the rare occasion that your opponent goes first, they still have to get past your reach. As they charge in, use your AoO’s to make them shaken and set up for sneak attacks.

Thanks, Kaleb,

I think my eyes had glazed over while trying to keep up with this thread. For some reason, I thought you were tripping opponents and found a way to raise your CMB. I'd like a rogue that can adequately pull off Dirty Trick or Tripping, but can't seem to find the right combo.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Midnighter wrote:
This is a benefit for AoOs and if your feint as a swift action. The fact that there is a feat that specifically grants the feint debuff to an ally only supports the argument that Greater Feint is self only.

This isn't exactly true as far as I understand. Greater Feint is not a swift action. The only advantage over Improved Feint is that with Greater Feint, the opponents Dex is lost until the beginning of the Rogues next turn. It doesn't even allow the Rogue to full attack since it is still a Move action.

Thus I thought the "common" interpretation was that the Dex loss was a buff for anyone else in combat with that foe.

Is there anything that would allow Feint as a swift action?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
leo1925 wrote:
Gray wrote:

I also posted about 5 pages ago how I wanted to do a bit of an analysis on how various builds should play out in an AP. I took a snap shot from three APs that I’ve run and have the following. I’ll reference this a bit with my builds below.

** spoiler omitted **

On the traps issue, because i am playing Jade Regent and i am DMing Shattered Star, the number of traps you have listed is misleading.

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

I really didn't mean to be pro or con there, or misleading. Just pointing out how many traps were there, which really wasn't a big number.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Scavion wrote:
Gray wrote:

I'll admit that I wouldn't consider playing a goblin or rogue. I tend to play humans. However, if you wish to play one as a Ranger that's great. They appear to make good Rogues too. Otherwise that is a racial feature rather that a class feature. Weighing the merits or demerits of that would take this discussion even further off course.

Buildwise, wouldn't a dex based Ranger or Bard be able to stealth just as well and in the bard's case better with buffs?

Additionally, the extra umph to stealth you get from Skill Focus(Stealth), is coming from a racial feature =)

True enough. I think either could do that, but they have to focus on it a bit more. And the little experiment made me more aware that you can't just slap some ranks in Stealth and call your self good at scouting. You need to aim more at ranks that are closer to 10 plus your level.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Scavion wrote:
Gray wrote:
Gray wrote:
That means that if the enemy rolls an average of 10, and you only have a +11 on Stealth, then you're too close to the 50/50 range of success.

By the way, if anyone is wondering where I came up with this statement, it was posted several times that other classes can fill the Rogue's shoes and do it better. I still haven't seen the builds that work better as scouts, and not spend limited resources that can be spent better elsewhere. I could certainly be wrong.

As an experiment, I built one of my favorite Ranger builds (Switch Hitter). At best, I'm sitting with a Stealth score at +11 which is horrible if the group is depending on that for scouting. I could boost that up, but it draws away from other areas that I'd rather have a Ranger excel at. The Rogue however makes this easier.

What level is the ranger? Any goblin or Hobgoblin can start the game with a Stealth upwards of +9.

I'll admit that I wouldn't consider playing a goblin or rogue. I tend to play humans. However, if you wish to play one as a Ranger that's great. They appear to make good Rogues too. Otherwise that is a racial feature rather that a class feature. Weighing the merits or demerits of that would take this discussion even further off course.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Kaleb the Opportunist wrote:

Battlefield control Rogue: (similar in play style to my 3.5 rogue)

Uses a combination of reach from the whip, combat reflexes, and high dex to increase attacks per round without the -2 penalty from TWF. Usually gets off more attacks per battle than TWF. (Hard to quantify)

How to use:
Before fight (you scouted first, right) Shield wand, Enlarge person wand to increase reach to 15’ if large group
Surprise round: buff or charge, your choice
Round 1: Choose: buff yourself (while keeping the fighter’s charge lane clear), delay for the fighter, move in to attack (single opponent), or use dazzling display (multiple opponents).
Round 2: Get into position where you can reach multiple opponents if you haven't already. Back to back with the fighter works exceptionally well.
At this point your opponents are shaken, sickened and unable to move even a 5’ step without drawing an AoO that deals SA damage. -2 Strength, -4 to all d20 rolls -3 damage and your AC goes up +6 for a total of +11AC. Keep moving to force them to move. Laugh maniacally as you and your besty the fighter mop them up.
On the rare occasion that your opponent goes first, they still have to get past your reach. As they charge in, use your AoO’s to make them shaken and set up for sneak attacks.

Half-Orc (City Raised) Rogue (Scout, Thug) 12
Lawful Neutral Humanoid (Human, Orc); Deity: Torag
STRENGTH 11, DEXTERITY 20/24, CONSTITUTION 14/16, INTELLIGENCE 10, WISDOM 10, CHARISMA 14/16
Fort +7, Reflex +15, WILL +4, AC 28
+1 Agile, Ghost touch Whip S, Disarm, Nonlethal, Reach, Trip, +18/+13, 1d3+8
Acrobatics +21, Bluff +10, Diplomacy +10, Disable Device +23, Disguise +10, Escape Artist +21, Intimidate +23, Perception +15, Stealth +21, Use Magic Device +21
Feats: Combat Reflexes (8 AoO/round), Dazzling Display (Whip), Enforcer, Improved Whip Mastery, Shadow Strike, Shatter Defenses (Whip), Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Whip), Whip Mastery
Traits: Defensive Strategist (Torag), Armor Expert
Special Abilities: Brutal...

What is your CMB on this build? Without crunching some numbers, I would think that you'd only be really successful with low CMD creatures. Not that I think it is an issue. I have a dwarf bard who does a similar strategy but only when it is an opponent who is clearly not a high CMD foe.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Gray wrote:
That means that if the enemy rolls an average of 10, and you only have a +11 on Stealth, then you're too close to the 50/50 range of success.

By the way, if anyone is wondering where I came up with this statement, it was posted several times that other classes can fill the Rogue's shoes and do it better. I still haven't seen the builds that work better as scouts, and not spend limited resources that can be spent better elsewhere. I could certainly be wrong.

As an experiment, I built one of my favorite Ranger builds (Switch Hitter). At best, I'm sitting with a Stealth score at +11 which is horrible if the group is depending on that for scouting. I could boost that up, but it draws away from other areas that I'd rather have a Ranger excel at. The Rogue however makes this easier.

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