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Bag of Devouring

Gorbacz's page

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber. Pathfinder Society Member. 11,077 posts (11,194 including aliases). 74 reviews. No lists. 1 wishlist. 1 Pathfinder Society character. 10 aliases.


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Silver Crusade

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Werebat wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:


The entire rules content of support material used in APs is open content, and freely available on the Internet. So it got tenable right away, next argument?

If you are correct, then there should be APs that use material from more than core and 2-3 sourcebooks that happened to come out a titch before the given AP did. Maybe 3-4 if you count monster books.

Can you name any APs where this is the case?

So, you've moved the goalposts. Your initial point was "you need to *own* all these books!" and when that got shot down we're in the "there are so many books, I'll never be able to process them all!" zone.

Which is an age-old argument in every RPG system that has more than 1 rule book printed for it. WoD, WFRP, GURPS, Rifts, Exalted, Shadowrun, Star Wars... Except in this case you don't need to shell out the money to keep up, that is.

The funny thing about the 3.5 gaming crowd, which makes up the vast majority of Pathfinder player base, is that they, for the most part, embraced the vast sea of options. Pathfinder isn't the only RPG out there, it even isn't the only iteration of D&D out there, and I can pretty much bet that all those people who prefer lite gaming hardly ever touched 3.5, let alone Pathfinder, and are out there happily playing OSR retroclones or whatanot.

Also, most folks can see PF for what it is and what it's not. I highly doubt that Paizo's business goal was, at any point, to satisfy every RPG gamer out there, or even every D&D gamer. The primary demographic was, and likely will be, folks who enjoyed 3.5 and got dumped upon by WotC when they killed 3.5 and started 4e.

Important point: 3.5 didn't die because of rules bloat, it didn't die because people stopped buying it, and it didn't die because the system fell apart. When WotC pulled the plug, it was an extremely popular, widely played and enjoyed game despite all the dozens of splatbooks and a sea of 3PP material. 3.5 was axed only because the Corporate Overlords of Hasbro decided that a new stream of fresh money generated by a new edition is what they want at the next annual bottom line. The fact that a massive market wanted *more* of 3.5 was made pretty evident when Pathfinder hit it high with the promise of bringing "more of the same" to the table.

So maybe you're not the target market group. But that fact alone doesn't mean that the system is going to fall apart.

Silver Crusade

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Werebat wrote:
Pan wrote:
So really the groaning going on here is werebat under the weight of his powergamers.

That would be true if I were the only person in my situation.

But I'm not, and as time goes on it will get worse for everyone.

Paizo, for example, can't assume when it writes its APs that everyone out there has every supplement it has also put out. That would lead to people eventually dropping their AP subscriptions because they couldn't use all of the APs due to their containing supplemental material they don't own (I know there have been exceptions to this but it is generally true).

Eventually you have a situation where player groups will have many more options (and thus generally more power) than the adversaries in the APs can have, due to said adversaries being largely restricted to core rules.

The more times rolls on, the worse the situation gets.

It is ultimately untenable.

The entire rules content of support material used in APs is open content, and freely available on the Internet. So it got tenable right away, next argument?

Silver Crusade

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Werebat wrote:
Coridan wrote:

I do agree that Pathfinder is putting out too much in regards to player oriented crunch. I despise everything the ACG is doing, though unchained doesn't bother me.

And we've seen this before, with 3.5. We know where it led.

For what it's worth WotC has formally stated that they plan to produce less "crunch" and more material that sure sounds a lot like Adventure Paths.

In short, they seem to have been watching Paizo, and taking notes.

All of this is good for us, the consumers/players.

It is simply my observation that certain patterns we have seen before are coming around again. And we'll see them yet again, in time.

You know, I still remember all those "business prophets" who declared that Paizo is going to go bankrupt by 2009 and have their assets sold to Necromancer Games for silly money in order to pay the overdue rent. Because, you know, repeating patterns and so on.

So I'd be careful with divination.

Silver Crusade

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Yes. Give me my 400 USD of PDFs back.

Silver Crusade

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magnuskn wrote:

Yep, the devs vastly underestimated the damage output PC's have at the high (meaning: after 3rd ^^) tiers. Now, the problem here already is that they have published a lot of mythic creatures and redoing all their hitpoints would be awkward. I wonder if the writers are willing to go to that length.

Then again, I've said since the alpha of the CRB that at high levels hitpoint totals for opponents (and PC's, to be perfectly honest) are way too low compared to the damage output of a normal party.

magnuskn wrote:

Have hitpoints and AC been adjusted upwards for the higher CR monsters?

A problem I generally encountered in my campaigns was that at higher levels, players were able to put out several hundreds of points of damage in a round, making fights even against a dragon generally last only about two to three rounds.

That's from June 2009. ^^

Yeah, you were running your games for 6 turbo optimizers since 2009 and you were curious why HP totals eyeballed at 4 non-optimized PCs are too low. Shocker!

Silver Crusade

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Mythic Distant Worlds AP could be a good idea. Turbo Cyber Liches and Dead God Robots ... mmmm ... mmmmmm.

Silver Crusade

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Epic didn't work.

Mythic works if you accept the fact that it generates turbo rocket rag superhero gameplay. I'm not sure if that's what people are expecting from 20+ games.

Face it tiger, the ruleset based on iterative attacks, reality-warping magic available on mid levels and three digit numbers just can't handle itself at higher levels.


11 people marked this as a favorite.

BRING BACK USE ROPE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


6 people marked this as a favorite.

FAILZO FAILS AT DEASIGNANGING MARTIALS AGAIN

OH WAIT NO, ARGUMENT RECALIBRATION:

FAILIZO KCICKS ROUGE DOWN AGAIN

FIRE SEAN K REYNOLDS NOW!

Silver Crusade

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Orthos wrote:
Captain Kid Rime wrote:
Josh Frost
Mike McArtor

FRANK TROLLMAN

Silver Crusade

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You remember when Liz Courts and Mike Moreland were just two hyperactive fanpersons.

Silver Crusade

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Evil Midnight Lurker wrote:
jimibones83 wrote:
It sucks to watch people come in and voice such negative opinions of something your totally amped about. Those of us who like syfy feel like anyone who dislikes it should just ease up and let us have our day for once. We can have both fantasy and syfy:)
Can we have sci-fi or SF instead of syfy? Because syfy is... I think it's an obscene Polish word. Gorbacz?

It's plural from 'syf' which itself comes from 'syfilis', and means a really ugly mess. Fustercluck is the closest English equivalent.

Silver Crusade

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Scott Betts wrote:


The OGL cat is out of the bag, but at this point it's ugly and malnourished and very few people are willing to put up with its crap.

Well, I'd say it's a quite a big cat that ate WotC's market leadership for lunch, but YMMV.

Silver Crusade

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Yeah, the constant "It's just one AP! And we won't be publishing just science-fantasy stuff during these 6 months! And the next AP will be traditional fantasy! And the one after that! Promise!" feels like a band that released a conceptual album and now tries to placate the rabid traditionalists fans so that they won't go away.

Sure, you gotta make money for living and this is a turbo conservative corner of a conservative hobby. Still, disheartening.

Silver Crusade

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James Jacobs wrote:
But six months later, we'll be back in familiar fantasy territory with Giant Slayer... and the one after that as well!

*sigh*

Silver Crusade

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Jeven wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
Having people constantly pop up and tell you that you're a Not True Fantasy Fan because you enjoy something else than knights and princesses can sometimes get tiresome.
Other customers are just giving feedback to Paizo about their preferences and/or seeking reassurance that they are not permanently changing their focus. Its not about you.

Cool. Can that feedback be more "Hey guys, I'm really not into sci-fi!" and less "You betrayed us, True Fans of Fantasy?". Thank you.

Silver Crusade

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James Jacobs wrote:

And folks... especially talking bags...

Don't be jerks, please. Some folks won't like the same things you like. That's perfectly fine.

We're doing plenty with Iron Gods and sci-fi at this point... no one needs to worry that we'll suddenly not produce any of it because someone voices an opinion against it. And those who DON'T like it, rest assured that not everything we publish during the 6 months Iron Gods is going on will be sci-fi associated, and after that's over we'll be going back to pretty much straight fantasy again.

The game is big enough for all of us. The industry isn't so big that it doesn't weep when we fight and bicker.

HUGS!!!!

Having people constantly pop up and tell you that you're a Not True Fantasy Fan because you enjoy something else than knights and princesses can sometimes get tiresome. Especially if you've been organising fan conventions since the dark times of 90s and you're really trying hard to accommodate every degree of fandom, from people who pick apart every word penned by Tolkien to furry anime fans.

And the constant defensive "it's OK, Iron Gods is just a phase, then we're back to your beloved traditionalist giants and orcs stuff" from Paizo staff doesn't help much.

Traditionalists can literally choke themselves on the urzillion FR/Greyhawk/Dragonlance material out there. Really, is it that hard to see that some things have been done to death and some fresh air is needed badly in our hopelessly conservative hobby? Paizo is doing just that - skimming genre boundaries and treating long neglected topics such as the existence of non-heteresexual people with respect, and in the end we have all those fandom neo-cons yelling that the world is falling apart.

Blergh.

Silver Crusade

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I'm all for those changes.

If Wizards are buffed as well. :)

Silver Crusade

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All we need now is to buy enough Iron Gods to convince Paizo do to a Distant Worlds AP.

Silver Crusade

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captain yesterday wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
NUMERIA!!!!!
isnt that coming before Giant Slayer?

Yes! And the basic rules of symmetry and elegance call for one to come also after! :)

Silver Crusade

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NUMERIA!!!!!

Silver Crusade

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I think the book should be renaned 'Pathfinder Exxxtreme' and have a Rob Liefeld cover.

Silver Crusade

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Insain Dragoon wrote:
I think to new players it may seem complicated, at least in the eyes of the devs. Remember that how the devs see and play the game is not the same as how players see and play the game.

There's also the horrifying option of that the way you see the game is not the way devs and majority of players see the game.

Silver Crusade

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I predict PFS swamped with Captain Andoran variants...

Silver Crusade

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Rynjin wrote:


Sorry to be the gloomy Gus on this one.

It's OK, wake us up when you've got something else to say apart from "My expectations were failed. Again." ;-)

Silver Crusade

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Lou Diamond wrote:

Jason, if you fix other rules in unchained please fix the WBL table it does not mesh with the cost of magic items. Pazio designs many great magic items that players will never see as they are too expensive for any pazio produced products. Examples Shadow Lords Armor 117,500gp Field Medics Breast Plate 53,500 gp, Most staffs. It is now nice to tease the people who buy your products with Items there characters will never be able to buy because of faulty WBL designed by WOTC [note this not Pazio's fault except you did not fix it.]

Errr ... a level 16 (top of the line for most Paizo APs) char can afford either of these, doubly so if crafting.

Also, the rules need to support 17+ levels, too.

Silver Crusade

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The last two posts show why this book will likely never be made: some people want "courtship and red blushes" book and some people want "sexual rituals and stats for STDs" book and having them both meet in the middle is kinda impossible.

Silver Crusade

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Just like you have some people preoccupied with making sure their setting is 100% turbo official canon compatible, some folks want the rules side of their game to be 100% kosher Jason Buhlman approved.

Silver Crusade

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Evan Tarlton wrote:

Very nice!

What are his alignment and religion?

Alignment: Chaotic Metal, deity: Ronnie James Dio.

Silver Crusade

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Nëëds mȫrë ǚmläüts.

Silver Crusade

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Oh damn, I thought Paizo is making a Golarion/Old World mashup and we're having an AP about Gotrex & Felix.

Silver Crusade

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Insain Dragoon wrote:
How often has Paizo APs actually used non-core material?

Quite often. I think that every AP installment uses at least several monsters from beyond the first bestiary and an NPC or two with non-core classes. Standard policy is that anything that is avaialable in the official SRD is just referenced, while non-SRD material gets reprinted in full.

Silver Crusade

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bugleyman wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
To me, it's D&D NextNextPlus, in order to differentiate it from the inevitable D&D NextPlusPlus which will come out in 2019.
Yes, Gorby, we get it. You hate all things WotC. Thanks for that. :/

You're welcome.

At least I'm consistent and not changing my views 180 degrees every other season. :)

Silver Crusade

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To me, it's D&D NextNextPlus, in order to differentiate it from the inevitable D&D NextPlusPlus which will come out in 2019.

Silver Crusade

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Becaue Amazon can afford to sell things at turbo deep discounts (or in some cases, at a loss) because they earn on the sheer amount of stuff they sell.

Silver Crusade

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Robert Brookes wrote:
Stratagemini wrote:

So is this like Book of Nine Swords was for 3.5? A preview into the Next edition of PF?

Because "Alternative Action Economy" hints at that for me.

I will say that I'm very interested in this "Magic item generator" system.

This is assuredly not a preview of or prelude to any future edition of Pathfinder RPG.

Rather, it's a chance to be able to make "changes" that fans have been asking for over the years (and ones the developers have wanted to make over the years) without fundamentally changing the core rulebook and forcing everyone to play under the new rules. It's options, ideas, alternates, and something you can piecemeal insert into your ongoing games.

Well, that won't stop people, in particular the ones with a long-standing axe to grind with Paizo, to run around the Internet screaming "paid beta of PF 2.0 out next year - WotC did that to you with Bo9s and now Paizo is doing it again".

Silver Crusade

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Jessica Price wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

I'm torn.

On the one hand, very interesting story, and I like it.

On the other the cynical side of me wants to use the fact that she is the only Iconic (so far as I know) to have what most people would call a good life currently as "proof" that the Arcanist is very very definitely Paizo's pet class. Yes, she's embroiled in a web of deception, but she comes from a loving family, holds a comfy government position, and so forth. Compared to "Parents are dead, exiled from home, and wandering aimlessly" it's a big step up.

Worth noting that even if the design team did have a "pet" class in this (which is already a bad assumption, as I'm pretty sure different designers on the team have different feelings about different classes), the bio was written (and conceptualized) by someone who's not a member of the design team, so you're seeing connections where there aren't any.

It's that one stop before the "SKR bullied me at school" one.

Silver Crusade

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Scott Betts wrote:
It's interesting to see the reaction differences between those here and those at EN World. There are multiple threads at EN World filled with overwhelmingly positive reactions to the basic rules contents (with a handful of negative reactions) whereas here we have the opposite.

Because EnWorld is where all the WotC fans went to after their own forums became borderline useless, while Paizo is the place where all the not-WotC fans went to after, you know after what.

So you're either surprised by something you shouldn't be surprised by or you are venting your frustration that there is some place in the multiverse where people aren't that big fans of whatever Mike Mearls does.

But trust me, if you want to see a place where people are *really* not positive about D&D NextNext, go to TGD. Heck, their current 5E thread is called "Zero Buzz on 5E...Is It Dead Out The Gate?". You'd love it ;-)

Silver Crusade

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Screw castard/martialfail disparity, this means you can have a party with a White Mage, a Blue Mage, a Red Mage and a Dragoon.

Silver Crusade

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It's "you have staff", not "you have a staff". Unless you're implying that Paizo has a magic item that does the editing, which would be awesome.

Silver Crusade

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So, when are we going to see female nipples for a change?

Silver Crusade

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And given that James and Erik have repeatedly stated that "what happened to Aroden?" is one of the few campaign setting secrets that aren't gonna be ever revealed... slim chances.

Also, locking some people out of your primary source of income for 12 months isn't something you want to risk.

Silver Crusade

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Diffan wrote:
:roll eyes: and of course I don't really take anyone seriously with claims like that. It's as fallow and lame as when people complained that the 3.5 Warlock was "SO BROKEN!!" because it had at-will magic. At those points, you just gotta shake your head and laugh.

Well, that kind of makes any conversation with you aimless, but I'll just make one parting shot:

Diffan wrote:
h4te killed 4E

I can give you links to dozens of posts here, at EnWorld and elsewhere which ridiculed Pathfinder ca. its launch and expressed their sincere hope that it's going to die in flames days after release. There were even people who hoped that Paizo will go bankrupt and whatever remains of it will be picked up by an actually serious company such as Necromancer Games and used to produce outstanding 4E stuff.(Which is delightfully ironic given what ultimately happened when Necro dabbled in 4E).

Sorry. I know that 4E fans like to think that it's haters and trolls that killed that outstanding gem of modern game design and marketing, but haters plague every game (just ask the WoD and WFRP people about what happens when new editions of their games come out), and they never bring it down by themselves.

Silver Crusade

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Diffan wrote:


Though, I have to ask: Why is this a big deal?

Because it makes you *feel* like if you're playing World of Warcraft.

Sure. You're not playing WoW. You're playing D&D. I get it! But it looks and feels like it were a MMO, with all those Ice Archon Frostshapers, disenchanting magic items into dust and having Shadow Bolt firing Warlocks right off the bat.

WotC wanted to rub off the MMO demographic by making a game which would instantly connect with video gamers thanks to using certain tropes, slang and presentation concepts familiar to them. Heck, it was even stated openly by then-brand management that the future of PnP RPGs is to ride the video game bandwagon, hence the way 4E was presented and all the (ultimately, abortive) digital initiatives such as Gleemax and VTT. The goal was to try and capture the video game demographic by making video gamers move over to PnP gaming.

The ironic thing was that an average D&D gamer, the core demographic as far as WotC is concerned, is a nostalgic guy who considers video games, and MMOs in particular, to be what 'killed' or 'eclipsed' his hobby, or at very least considers himself to be the one who engages in the 'superior' hobby, which is more refined and sophisticated than mashing buttons on a keyboard. And that's why 4E backfired so horribly - the core demographic rejected the presentation. You can - quite correctly - point out all the ways in which 4E was an actual RPG and had nothing to do with MMOs and video games but at the end of the day, it's the first impression that counts. Few people were willing to give 4E second looks, and the utterly abysmal handling of its' launch and marketing didn't help much.

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