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Nexian Galley

Globetrotter's page

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber. Pathfinder Society Member. 354 posts. No reviews. No lists. 1 wishlist.


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Marroar Gellantara wrote:

I've also seen paladins with a starting strength of 14.

When everyone from player to GM doesn't know what they are doing, then these calculations do not translate to: "actual play"

My Paladin has a STR of 14, what's wrong with that?

15 point buy, you can only do so much.

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Only once?

I get the limitation on books, but a character sheet? Seems a bit restrictive.

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Undone wrote:
It should also be noted that anything which applies to an attack (not attack roll) applies to every part of the attack (each roll) for example if the first attack get's 1.5 str from dragon style then every roll gets the bonus.

Really? Why is that? Is says for each roll you do normal damage, not for each roll you deal damage as the first strike in the full attack.

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It would be an interesting house rule to allow coup de grace healing... But a house rule is all it would be.

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Well, I know I would be asking my players how the hell is he getting Terran mastery over the astral plane if he has never been there and has no way to travel there.

Fun for theory but I couldn't see many of the people I play with as well letting that fly.

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Maybe you don't need to do the dmg/ride check.

A lot of creatures have improved bull rush as a feat, which can dismount a rider.
I think this is all you need.

I was just thinking about this last night why so many Giants have improved bull rush and disabling mounted riders seems to be a good reason for it.

It creates a dynamic battle without adding mechanics. The character still takes damage, but not much and you get you play with the idea of monsters trying to eat the mount, lol.

It's your call, of course, but I think using the combat maneuvers instead of a new mechanic is a safe way to go.

Either way, good luck!

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Right, these questions are all about the roleplaying aspect and not mechanics..

Well, maybe not, lol. The mechanics of reading a harrow deck?

My character is the one doing the readings and not the other way around.

So, if someone asks will I die tomorrow, do you think this is too direct of a question?

The other players at the table will be using this tool to help guide us, and the DM will be making small adjustments to his whim based on my readings (on target or not). Since my character only has a profession skill of +4, I have determined I will be a poor reader at first, but in time I will get better.

Would it be better to field questions like:

Is the Baron what he seems to be?
Will taking on this new adventurer lead to fortune or doom?

and questions like this should be avoided?

Will people laugh at me if I wear this hat?
Am I the fairest in the land?

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I have time :)

Take a look at the other thread I posted as well, the Harrow Exercises. This is to also help me get a handle on this.

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Thanks for your post, but this does little to answer the questions I am posing.

Could you maybe read my questions again and try to answer those?

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My interpretation:

Role Card:

This represents you in this dual, caught up in something that is beyond your control.

Spread: Past

Looking at both the Queen Mother and Winged Serpent, I say knowledge is your key to victory and not brute strength.

Spread: Past

The present is unclear, there is someone or something that forced you into this predicament. Find the source of your need to fight and in this search you will find how do defeat your foe.

Spread: Future

The Rakshasa represents your fear that binds your actions. Use the knowledge gained of your opponent to free yourself of this fear. The Paladin says you will be able to stand strong, and even though this will be a tough battle, you will stand victorious.

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In an attempt to learn how to do this, I thought throwing up a few scenarios would be fun. At each stage, I am curious how you would interpret the cards through the choosing and the spread. I will bold a line where I would like to know what you, as our harrower, would say to the individual wanting their fortune.

Bragg is competing in a dual to the death tomorrow and he is nervous.

Question: Will I survive against my encounter?

Now, I am still unsure if this is a reasonable question to ask, but this seems like something I would want to know if I was Bragg.

This sounds like a Strength related question, so I have Bragg pull a Strength card.

Role Card:The Uprising (Neutral Evil)


Spread: Past

Queen Mother (Neutral good - Wisdom - partial match)
Winged Serpent (Lawful good - Wisdom - partial match)
The Rabbit Prince (Neutral Evil - Dexterity - no match)


Spread: Present

The Teamster (True Neutral - Constitution - partial match)
The Theater (Lawful Neutral - Charisma - partial match)
The Tangled Briar (Lawful evil - Constitution - partial match)


Spread: Future

The Rakshasa (Lawful evil - Knowledge - opposite match)
The Bear (True neutral - Strength - partial match)
The Paladin (Lawful good - Strength - opposite match)

To recap, you are always supposed to interpret true matches, opposite matches and role cards.

In the past, we have two cards we can interpret, but only need to do one. This is highly subjective on the reader.

In the present, we have three partial matches, as above, this is highly subjective.

The future is interesting, we have two opposite matches and we must interpret those, the third card is option.

How would you interpret?

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I am making a character that uses the Harrow Deck and I am hoping to learn how to use this deck at the same time my character does.

It is a pretty steep learning curve that takes a lot of intuition and creativity.

I have some pretty basic questions, and for those who are just as confused as me, I feel having us all work this out in the same threat to be helpful.

1. What kind of questions can be asked?

In the sample at the end of the book, the question is something akin to is my mother getting remarried a good idea. The way the cards fall in the story make great sense from an experienced Harrower, but I need more. Do the questions have to be vague? Can you ask, "Are we going to survive if we charge the castle?" or "Am I going to die today?"

2. How much detail do you give about the role card in the choosing?

The example just says this is your relation to the question, but didn't really explain what that card was. Are they supposed to look at that card and get the meaning on their own? Or is this just a way to get a role card and then use it if it appears in the spread?

3. Who do the cards in the spread represent?

If you are asking "Will I be wealthy?" and you get the betrayal card in the true position, does this mean you will betray someone, someone will betray you or just that somewhere soon you will be witness to a betrayal?

Trying to learn all of these cards is daunting, but I am enjoying myself. I hope you guys find a way to answer my questions politely and then add your own. I think the Harrow deck is a pretty exciting addition to our game and I would like to learn how to do this justice.

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That's probably a good suggestion.

I think in the future I will continue to use mythic with my monsters, but I doubt I will use it with NPC's. It's terrible, lol.

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Tangent, I figured this to be the best option as well, but sadly my players vetoed it.

We went through a long drawn out conversation on what to do about mythic. One recommendation was to remove any power that gave action economy, I didn't like that since I would have to police everything and I didn't want my work load to increase.

Other option was to half mythic power points... Surges, shoot I can't remember off the top of my head. So instead of having 11 at this level they would have 5. Removing amazing initiative as well to speed things up would round out this house rule. I liked this one, or at least I thought it was on the right track, but my players didn't like the option.

I brought up hero points and they thought it was interesting, but skipped over it to continue the discussion.

In the end, they decided to remove all elements if mythic and play the game straight. I told them I will adjust the power levels down to compensate, which I find easier than trying to compensate for the power swings and I also do not have to rebuild everything.

Scorpion recommended me removing mythic from the creatures as well, but I'm undecided. I think he might be right in the long run, but the mythic creatures are built so poorly I don't think it will matter. Why does everyone have mythic toughness?

We meet this Saturday and I'll see how it goes.

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Mythic just got removed. They've had trouble all throughout the AP. Mythic got removed for us because it was making things too complicated. There was also the wild swings of power that made it hard to handle; either they went down fast or you did..

I do restrict items, so that helps a little. I also make sure there are consequences to actions. If they come in guns a blazing, everyone that could know will know and tactics change.

I have the enemies scry on the PC's if they have the ability to. Jarruunicka has the power of augury and divination, she used these powers to prepare for the PC's.

I spend a lot of time wondering what the villains would be doing and try to run them accordingly. Sometime I will rebuild if Paizo built them odd, but usually I play them out of the box.

If they have planar binding spells : Xanthir and powers to enhance said spells, I use them. I don't care if the AP doesn't say to. In this recent battle, I had a planar bound creature ready, but haven't pulled it out yet.

People retreat and regroup. They pass information and encounters get stronger because of knowledge. I don't meta game. If they change strategies I still have the NPC's use old knowledge, unless they have ways to know better.

I also use the environment a lot.

My players do pre-buff when they can, but I will have NPC's talk to them. I run a stop watch and keep track of the time and have buffs drop in real time, stop watch is paused during rounds of combat. Players know this and like the stress it builds.

I figure, if I was a player and people,we're attacking me, I would be aware (if I have the right knowledge skills) what are the common buffs and how long they last, especially if I was a 12th level caster. Delay combat by ten or twenty minutes with a locked door or a minion that likes to talk and presto... Debuffed PC's. Since we all agreed on this and I remind them throughout the dialog about their buffs, no one feels cheated.

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This baffles me to no end. I posted a number of posted in scorpions stat block thread and I'm having the exact opposite experience. My players are getting bested down left and right.

Now, we have just depowered the party and removed mythic after that Xanthir Vang encounter at the end of book 3, but even that battle was too tough; Xanthir easily got away and they killed Jerribeth only because she started acting stupid and panic when her betrayal of Xanthir realized.

I'm agreeing this is a failed AP. Mythic is broken.

I'm so confused at what I'm doing differently than everyone else. Granted, I think my players help out a lot because they make the dumbest tactical decisions and I exploit that, but still... We are an older group, so most of my players don't spend a lot of time analyzing or trying to game the system,so that helps too.

I use a lot of tactics and positioning, light effects, and story elements to make the scenes harder. My players are baffled that everyone finds this AP easy and say I play the creatures to their max... But I think I've just convinced them of that.

Things I'm wondering, how are your characters kicking over 1,000 damage a round... Or healing that much in a round. I'm pretty sure my players (me included) are not as smart as we think we are, lol. I fear having one of you guys at my table.

I would just had you a trophy, lol. You win :)

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I created an action economy tracker that my players really liked that helped keep their abilities in check. I would love to share that, but sadly, I have no idea how.

Care to teach a n00b?

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Well, they will be much weaker than their mythic counterparts, but they have accepted that. I will redesign the AP to allow them to still experience the story and combats of the appropriate calibre that stays in the spirit of what the AP is shooting for.

They probably will not fight demon lords, but they will still have a chance to close the worldwound portal and have fun doing it. I'll keep giving them the wealth the AP has in it, which will give then more power than a typical PC.

They really don't want to scrap the whole adventure, but they are tired of the complex action economies due to mythic. It will be simple and fun.

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Well, we finished the Ivory Sanctum, most of it. It was a disaster. I used the written stat blocks posted in the AP, except for Jerribeth and Xanthir.
They approached the door at the end of the valley (Q1) and destroyed the basilisks with a fireball. The other creatures ran for the hills. Thankfully, that alerted the entire complex of their arrival. Players fought the minotaurs through the illusionary wall. They had trouble with this because I forgot to ask for a will save to disbelieve. By round 4 someone asked, and it got easier: My fault. Wizard launched another fireball killing the two minotaurs they were fighting and two they didn’t even see. Players took some decent damage, but nothing too serious.
Jerribeth was waiting just outside of her hall and whispered the players to follow her, they hesitated. She told them to quick move to her room to discuss their plans before they entire complex is mobilized. They were very cautious here, which I normally wouldn’t blame them for if they hadn’t already dropped 2 fireballs and 4 rounds of loud combat.
I had Jerribeth telepathically tell the other members of the sanctum it was her, and to not be alerted. This gave the PC’s time to speak out their plans. Jerribeth wanted the PC’s to kill Xanthir and they agreed, but with the caveat of putting on the rings. They refused, a philosophically debate (in character, it was pretty good) went back and forth with Jerribeth until she gave up and just attacked. The monk almost went down and by the end of round one, it was obvious Jerribeth was too powerful. I quickly reverted her to the book stats and we fought for 2 more rounds. They players conceded she was more powerful and talked her down. They all put the rings on. They refused the wish.
Jerribeth lead the party to the room just outside of the guard room for Xanthir’s chamber. They plotted and made final deals with Jerribeth: she would hold back the Templars and kill the blackfire adepts (she was lying) and they would kill Xanthir. Once the players have a firm upper hand, or if she thinks helping will kill Xanthir quickly, she will help.
This is the situation that is much bleaker than appears. They PC’s have only killed 4 minotaurs and are now deep in the Ivory Sanctum. To make matters worse, I placed a sitewide unhallow with a dimensional lock to block any teleportation except for CE creatures. I did this do to a side story, the PC’s went to the Ivory Sanctum once before and Xanthir now wanted to block the PC’s from entering again.
The PC’s fought the locusts (again, no mods) and one NPC – he was pretty weak and did virtually no damage to the party. When they entered Xanthir’s room, he had caste two summoning spells, 4 babau and 1 shadow demon. A cloudkill spell dropped as well making the battle tight.
A few more summons and the players were hurting. Xanthir just started teleporting around and eventually stopped summoning. After 4 hours and 23 rounds of combat, I had Xanthir put the fright into Jerribeth since he knows that she betrayed him and he left the Sanctum. In a mad dash she attacked the PC’s trying to finish them. They eventually put her down by me using subpar tactics.
The player playing the wizard felt the adjustments and accepted they should have died. Especially if I had Jerribeth order the Templars to fight and bring in the blackfire adepts.

Uniformly, everyone agreed they hated mythic and we have decided to completely remove it from the game. Now, I believe these loses have more to do with their choices than mythic, but it seems the added options and complexity is making my players less effective. We will continue to run the AP without mythic. I will adjust accordingly and we will get back to having fun.
This AP… as another thread stated, is a complete failure in my book and I am disappointed I will have to rewrite it to make it work. I am used to homebrew settings, so this will not be too hard, but I am not going to waste my time any longer trying to get this AP to work as written.

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We house ruled at our table that any EX ability can bypass, or any creature with the mythic subtype with constant see invisible or constant true seeing can bypass.

Yes, it limited the ability, but we found it too powerful and this balance helped is still run monsters and still feel pretty powerful.

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These are great suggestions, and I thank you guys for taking my concerns seriously instead if the usual round of insults that frequent the boards.

I will play the next session as written and see how they do. I might modify Jerribeth since she is supposed to be an iconic baddie, but I think my players are prepared to strike a deal with her to end Xanthir.

We play this Saturdaya and I'll report the session. I will also try to find a good healing option until they find a cleric.

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I will run the Ivory Sanctum as written and see what happens.

I fear they will blow through everything, but maybe not.
I have already prepared altered stat blocks for all the creatures, so I can switch if I need to.

BTW, they are already 4th tier and nearing 5th.

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Given this, do you think I should be running the NPC out of the box?

I know I know my group best, but I'm struggling on this one. Especially when the NPC's are built so poorly. Honestly, I look at them and cringe.

For example, Xanthir has mostly crafting feats or how most of the creatures have toughness and mythic toughness instead of useful feats.

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Caius... you make me feel stupid, lol. Yes, they have no healing. The warpriest can heal a little bit, and the alchemist has a little healing, but he is dead now and the player has replaced him with a barbarian: no healing except mythic recuperation.

They are mostly below wealth, but that is because I had rebuilt Zanedra and she took out the entire party with her Eidolon. I didn't level her, just rebuilt and changed her spells.

This battle went pretty poorly as well. At the time they were using a lot of invisibility, and with mythic undetectable, by RAW they would be impossible to find. We house ruled that EX methods could bypass it (blindsense, blindsight, tremor sense and perception checks, but still has total concealment if it applies).

Since they stood in the room pre-buffing before the fight with her, she started buffing her eidolon as well. They made their perception checks and continued to buff after knowing she was also casting buff spells. Now, to their benefit, they had no idea it was a summoner, but 4 (only four players at this time) against one, it shouldn't have mattered.

Round one, they opened the door under the status and the creature full attacked the flat-footed monk/ninja (no uncanny dodge) and dropped him. This took the party by surprise.

Round two, the fully buffed eidolon with lifesense (evolution surge to give undead and lifesense) pounced the wizard... down.

The next rounds didn't really matter. Everyone dropped after that and to salvage the game, the PC's were captured and tortured. All gear was lost and they have to salvage what they have now.

The last series of sessions had them at lower wealth and this made the encounters tougher, but they still could hit with good damage.

The biggest problem they have is staying up in fights. They are very paranoid on fights, specially failing saving throws. The battle with the woundwym got nasty as the entire party failed the entropic breath weapon and fought each other... the woundwyrm was mostly a secondary player as they went after each other with gusto. They are truly great Role Players.

Two characters died in this battle (we did a side mission to hell to get them back, only to have the rogue alchemist die again the next session). Dying seems to happen a lot.

We recently had a discussion to house rule out most of the hero point options. I didn't like the idea of being able to add +8 to a saving throw and then do a surge on top of that. This could add up to a +16 to a save. Not to mention is slowed down the table watching them contemplate if they want to do it or not.. and I have to wait.. and wait. I am sure you guys know what I am talking about when a 3 round battle takes 90 minutes because of all the hem's and ha's.

So the issues they have is:

  • Not enough gear
  • Saving throw failures tend to cost the life of a player (it doesn't, but they only remember the times it happens)
  • battles are too deadly

They are not complaining. They really are enjoying themselves, but they cannot understand my concerns that the AP is going to get too easy and they are going to get too powerful. We have also done some of the typical things, made mythic power attack like mythic deadly aim, things like that.

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My players admitted after the fact this was probably the worst battle plan they have ever had, but it seems there is always something that puts them in peril.

We have done a lot to limit things. Turns have to be under three minutes, next week I'm reducing that to two. Taking when it's not your turn takes an immediate action if it's more than two sentences (players police themselves). We also made a pretty cool action economy tracker to make sure all the swift and immediate actions were not being abused.

Currently, they thing the game is too hard, but they know me to be a tough GM. I tend to play the creatures to what I think their intelligence to be. They take down casters if they are smart, just charge in if dumb. Retreats and darkness is used a lot as well as buffs and positioning. I make sure I know the enemies well to play them hard.

My players say I play the enemies very well and that people on the boards must not be: this is total horse crap. I've read what you guys do and it is amazing. I must admit my players are good theory crafters but it all falls apart in action.

With who is at my table, do you think I will have the same issues?

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Yes, that would help. Sorry, I was typing all that on my phone during my kid's swimming lesson. Doesn't look like much, but when you have big thumbs and a small iphone.. a little is a lot.

We have 5 players all 11th level 4th tier:

Admixture wizard/Archmage focusing on fireballs (he does a lot of damage since she can switch it to any element - with selective and maximize metamagic, he clears areas - rods and feats). She will drop fireballs in the 120-150 range when he can. That is tough.

Diviner 1/Poison masterRogue 4/vivisectionist Alch 6/trickster - this build seems pretty wild but he was surprisingly effective using an elven curve blade and a lot of sneak attack damage. buff spells and mutagens get him to be very strong.

Ninja 3/Moms Monk 8/ Champion - he focuses on crane wing and snake style to get 5+ attacks per round. Pretty decent damage and really hard to hit

Synthesis summoner - I told him not to try and break the game, but he has more hit point than anyone, better pluses to hit and pretty much the best AC, as you would expect

Warpriest - he is a new player that will only be going one more session.

In the redoubt, the monk and the rogue/alchemist charged through the gates and ran all away round to the main area where I had Jaruunicka mocking Arueshalae. The monk was a lot faster with mythic haste and impossible speed and alerted the entire complex. I had the Bebilith just take an AoO and the Drekari's to one AoO instead of having them make the confusion saving throw. The monk took a little damage and run square into the forbiddance effect (I didn't allow a saving through for this artifact). He is LE (long story why, but he fell from grace) and took full 72 points of damage. He dropped.

The Rogue/alchemist charged in as well and got to Jaruunicka... that ended poorly for him as she killed him in two rounds. First round she ended with a grab attack and he couldn't get out.

I didn't have the hezrou or the Bebilith attack at all, and the drake riders only attacked once or twice throughout the battle. The Wizard reigned down ice balls (admixtured fireballs) and cleared the area. The warpriest took one of the hits from the drake riders and knocked him to the ground, he was riding on the synthesist summmon since they teleported so far away from the redoubt. He fell from the hit and took more damage. He was able to get into the tower after taking some damage from the bell.

The wizard took damage from something, I can't remember what, but she went down trying to enter the redoubt, also taking a full 72 points of damage. She spend 2 hero points to save her life.

The war priest was afraid to leave the tower with Jaruunicka standing out there with spell immunity:fireball on, so he tried to shoot arrows. He also didn't want to leave and potentially take damage going back in since he was already hurt.

At this point the summoner was left. I had the drake riders flee and the bebilith, will-o-wisps, the grubs and the hezrou with died from the fireball or just left since they didn't want to die. Jaruunicka was left. She almost killed the summoner in battle.

I didn't even rebuild her, although I did reselect her spells and gave her the appropriate buffs.

I use the terrain often and pretty much the party uses that terrain to isolate themselves. I don't even need to throw up walls since they tend to trap themselves, lol.

Is this helpful?

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Ok, I got through all if this thread... The failed AP thread and nobody's coverage... I think I got that name wrong. I am completely taken back.

I am at the end of book 3. We rushed book 1 and 2 since they were higher level from a homebrew, but got them on track by the beginning of book 3. I did my best house the XP system and the mythic trials, but I gave up on it: XP is a pain and the math does not add up right for me - the mythic trials just seem like a gimmick and I'm giving them tiers per the schedule in the front of each AP.

I've talked to my players and had them read a page or two of this thread to let them know this AP breaks down quickly and I want to make some modifications before it breaks. We are 20 point buy, max hit point up to level 8 and we use hero points. I know this gives them a stronger character, but that was how the homebrew was because originally it was only three players with me experimenting in the worldwound. Now we have 4-5 players and we keep using the grandfathered system.

My players are getting slaughtered. I'm not really buffing the monsters much and I'm nervous. They build great characters but work horribly together. In Arueshalae's Rescue, three characters died, one permanently (story reason), one stabilized and one used two hero points to save himself from death.

They have terrible potential to do damage but almost always seem to go down. Now, they are about to enter the Ivory Sanctum, they are trying to work together, and I'm trying to figure out who and how to buff the monsters without killing them.

I am wondering what I am doing differently than you guys and what I need to do to make it balanced more. My players are scared to die and I'm nervous to have this AP break and represent another waste of time and money.

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Well, I'll be damned.

So, if an object is lost, you can only find it with locate object... Sad news for my little friend.

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and yet, the spell obscure object says

This spell hides an object from location by divination (scrying) effects, such as the scrying spell or a crystal ball. Such an attempt automatically fails (if the divination is targeted on the object) or fails to perceive the object (if the divination is targeted on a nearby location, object, or person).

What does the boldfaced text mean?

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Is this the final conclusion then, that it does work?

What is the save for magical items?

I suppose I can just make up a number.

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Sorry if this has been answered before... I'm sure it has, but can't find it.

If I lose my special sword, how do I find it?

If an NPC takes it, I know I can scry on them, but what if they sold the item?

The scry spell specifically calls out creatures, but not objects.
Locate object will point me in the right direction, but what if it is guarded by who-knows-what? I would like to also be prepared.

Help me find my heirloom and not die doing it!!!

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If it says, "bonus on damage rolls", I would think that would only be weapon damage.

I could see someone arguing for precision damage, like sneak attack, or enchancement damage, like bane, but I would think this works more like vital strike than mythic vital strike... if you get my meaning.

Without the standard action problems...

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Anyone have any thoughts on this?

I know it's a corner case, but before I do something that might make a battle harder than it should be, I want to see if I am missing something.

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Da'ath, thank you for your words, I think you understand me better than others.

I didn't intent this to become a deep rules discussion or an example of how people can be rude for no reason.

I understand the rules well enough to know that I do not like this spell the way it is written. I had a discussion with my players and we all agreed it was odd how the spell worked for such a low cost. We discussed alternatives, some of the same thoughts appeared in this thread.

I decided my course since it would be fast for me at the table, no rolls necessary, and as long as the rule is known well in advance, there are no upset players. I brought my decision to my players and they agreed it was a fair house rule.

My players are currently 11th level and 4th mythic tier. This rule doesn't effect the game much, but it makes me happier for it.

This is why I posted in the house rule section over the rules or advice section.

For those who think I am a bad DM because I like using environment and lighting in my game, well, please keep that to yourself. My players are happy and I enjoy running, which is the point.

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I was wondering if you are facing a burrowing creature and he lifts his body only partway out of the ground, does he have partial cover ?

I ask this because in the environmental section of the CRB, we have this rule for water combat:

Attacks from Land: Characters swimming, floating, or treading water on the surface, or wading in water at least chest deep, have improved cover (+8 bonus to AC, +4 bonus on Reflex saves) from opponents on land. Land-bound opponents who have freedom of movement effects ignore this cover when making melee attacks against targets in the water. A completely submerged creature has total cover against opponents on land unless those opponents have freedom of movement effects. Magical effects are unaffected except for those that require attack rolls (which are treated like any other effects) and fire effects.

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Snively wrote:

It'd be interesting if you made some underdarkies with Continual Darkness items to toss around as well... fight fire with fire, so to speak.

I get what you mean, this spell really shoots the bell curve of item creation. But do they have the spell in their spellbook? Can they find a Ruby? Will their god grant it for the day? Will the all mighty dollar be able to afford the item when it's for sale? Light should be available, but Perma-Light may be reserved for higher level adventures, say as a reward in a scroll at the end of an adventure arc, when you're through with a tread through the dark dungeon?

You need a Ruby for this spell, an Onyx for that spell... how rare are gemstones in your world?

I'm not really looking to micromanage or get in an arms race with the players. I just don't understand some items. I was thinking a lot about the ecology of certain creatures and the scare factor of darkness. Then I started thinking about economies and how if continual flame was so cheap, lights would be everywhere. I'm mean everywhere.

So trying to look at all of these things, plus thinking about a darkness discussion we recently had at the table I saw the silliness in this spell. At least from my perspective.

I told my players of the house rule and they are all for it, so I'm happy. It won't change much at the table, but it makes me feel better.

Thanks again for all the suggestions!

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Maybe I didn't make this clear enough, this is not for my current game but for future games. The players now have many ways to bypass it

However, I so think it's great that I'm a terrible GM now because I don't like a spell.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

This rule makes sense game wise, and a lot easier to deal with in combat.

Can you imagine if I said apply 10 points of damage to yourself and all items your character is holding? That would grind the table to a halt.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Lol... they would rather just kill the person.

This discussion is really a lot less about my players (they like the rules as is), but more about satisfying something that bothers me.

I think I am going to make it non-magical and end my thoughts.

I really thank you guys for contributing.

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

To add (this is fun)...

an everburning torch says this and costs 110 gp

Everburning Torch This otherwise normal torch has a continual flame spell cast on it. This causes it to shed light like an ordinary torch, but it does not emit heat or deal fire damage if used as a weapon. Price 110 gp; Weight 1 lb.

Why does a mundane item cost twice what the magic version costs? Especially since you use the magic spell to create the mundane item? My guess is if you were making an everburning torch, it should cost you 55 gp... or spend 50 gp and have a magical one that kicks the crap out of the more expensive version.

Does that make any sense at all?

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Yes, I do this as well. Fog clouds in darkness, it's pretty fun.

It's the idea of a spell having this much power (yes, it's pretty minor; it's a pet peeve).

For example, what would the cost be of creating this item using the magic rules? My guess would be:

Spell level x caster level x 2,000 gp

3 X 5 X 2,000 = 30,000 gp.

I would be pretty happy if this was the case, but it's not. For the price, you could say this should be halved since one of the rules is if the power lasts 24 hours, the cost is halved. ok, 15,000 gp.

Or if you used the light spell to base this, we are looking at this:

Spell level x caster level x 750 gp (based on 100 charges, which this formula is for 50 charges, so I will double the final total)

3 X 5 X 750 X 2 = 22,5000 gp.

This is a pretty good deal... and it bothers me. Since so many creatures have darkness as a power, or deeper darkess, a 50 gp spell that can be handed out defeats it for all of these creatures. Kind of makes the darkness spells nearly useless.

This is why I am thinking about making the flame mundane, but still allowing it to last forever. Like an eternal sunrod or something.

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

As my party gets higher and higher level, this becomes a non-issue. They have access to daylight, which I think is a great counter.

This is a houserule I will use in my later games, so I want to hammer something out that is fast and easy.

Mr Pitt, it is still continual flame, lol, since it goes on forever.

Goth, currently, we have the two spells interact and the light returns to the prevailing condition. In some cases, its dark and others it is dim light. This is how the rules would have us do it. Since additional castings of darkness or light do not stack, these spells are pretty much done in the spell area. Players with darkvision rejoice and you have the darkvision spell to offset others. I am ok with this part as well since it is a resource expended to offset another resource expended.

Da'ath, that is a possibility, and an option one my players recommended. But how would that interact with continual flame items?

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

But why? Or is the answer "magic" and we move on?

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

If you cast acid cloud, the spell says, "Each round on your turn, starting when you cast the spell, the fog deals 2d6 points of acid damage to each creature and object within it.

I highlighted the part I am concerned with. Does this mean the character takes damage as well as all their gear, or just unattended objects?

I had the last encounter start to burn all of their clothes and whatnot, but that was mostly for fluff. Then I started thinking, what if my wizard player enters and his component pouch gets destroyed. That does not seem like a lot of fun.

It does make the spell dangerous, and seems to make sense that everything would take damage, but could really alter an encounter quickly.

The entire spell is listed below:

Acid Fog
School conjuration (creation) [acid]; Level magus 6, sorcerer/wizard 6

Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (powdered peas and an animal hoof)

Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect fog spreads in 20-ft. radius, 20 ft. high
Duration 1 round/level
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no

Acid fog creates a billowing mass of misty vapors like the solid fog spell. In addition to slowing down creatures and obscuring sight, this spell's vapors are highly acidic. Each round on your turn, starting when you cast the spell, the fog deals 2d6 points of acid damage to each creature and object within it.

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Yes, I really do not like this spell.


For a measly 50 gp worth of powered ruby, or something, cast by a divine caster (3rd level) it blocks the effects of every darkness spell in the game.

Yes, there is heighten deeper darkness, but that really never gets cast. I am running a wrath of the righteous game and a lot of creatures have deeper darkness at-will. I like to use these tactics to create more difficult encounters, but sadly by RAW (unless I am wrong, I am wrong often) all they have to do is pull out there little continual flame rock and bang, no more darkness spell. FOREVER.

Yes, I could cast dispel magic... but they know that and carry multiple. I tried thinking about having the two effects counter and another casting of deeper darkness would then work normally, but they pull out another one. Arg... this shouldn't be an arms race.

What I am trying to figure out is how to make this spell functional, but not something that can take out stronger spells. My houserule that I want to use is treat continual flame as a mundane spell that lasts until dispelled. Then even darkness would cancel out the light effects like it would a torch. I feel this to be more balancing.

Can anyone either validate this probably terrible houserule or offer suggestion one what they do?


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

It's an odd ability to be sure, lol.

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

What does this do?

Blood Sanctuary (Su): At 3rd level, due to the power of his blood, a bloodrager can stand confidently amid the effects of spells cast by himself or his allies. He gains a +2 bonus on saving throws against spells that he or an ally casts.

Why do you need a saving throw vs you cast yourself? Why saving throw bonuses against allies?

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Solves that.

Thank you!

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