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The quote from Bryan, which pres man posted, deserves to have the last part included too, I think:

Bryan Stiltz about 10 hours ago

@Ron - We are no longer certain whether end of May is achievable - the Customs variable has thrown a monkey-wrench into our timetables. Please understand that we do not want to stretch the fulfillment process one hour longer than absolutely necessary - and personally, I want to be able to close the project successfully as soon as possible. There is a con I wanted to attend/work in June that if we're not done, I will not be allowed to (because I will be needed in the factory working fulfillment).
We communicated a while back that we were still awaiting other product, and have tried to be open about the delays. There are factors beyond our control, but this does not mean that fulfillment will not happen - only that it will take longer than everybody (ourselves included) had hoped.
We appreciate the enthusiasm, which causes the frustration. We are sorry that there have been delays, and ask everyone - whether supportive or frustrated - to please be respectful to each other. Everyone here is interested in the same goal - completing fulfillment.

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I can't speak for everyone, but I think most people are more upset that we're 45 days into the process and only just now found out that there is a big delay in the works.

Or maybe some of the information was something Reaper didn't have themselves until recently (like how long it would take to get through customs and suddenly those "deadlines" came and passed). Or it was information which would skew the expectations of people and instead of giving it, which would be useless because it they still couldn't give a concrete answer or do anything about it (like the Canadian customs thing). It seems that no matter what information they give out people are going to complain about it. It's as if people think they are entitled to a day by day update on all the separate workings of the process. And a lot of people seem utterly unable to fathom the logistics for such a huge operation. An operation that's more than a 1,000 times bigger than their initial goal.

Also, as for your specific comment on the update page. You knew that the more add-ons you have (i.e. the more complex your order was), the further back in the line you'd be. They said that when they started shipping.

People were openly speculating here, on KS, and on Reaper's forums about when their order would ship and Reaper reps just sat on their hands and let people assume their orders might be coming...

No, they didn't just it on their hands, they were busy with their normal operations AND shipping out the stock they had already received. Which they were doing faster than planned.

Also, see the link I posted earlier where Bryan talks about this.

Wait a month for the miniature deal of a lifetime?

You didn't sign up for the miniature deal of a lifetime. You pledged money towards Reaper expanding their Bones range and buying mold-injection machines, so they can move the production to Texas instead of China. As a thank you for that funding they are going to send you a whole bunch of miniatures. Again, you didn't buy those, you pledged towards the expansion of the Bones line and the equipment to produce them in Texas.

As for pettiness and vindictiveness... I haven't seen much of that, just lots of frustrated people disappointed in some really bad communications.

You must not have read the comment section on the various updates on the Kickstarter page...

All of this sounds like people are cooking up some kind of conspiracy theory and it's like they think Reaper is purposely keeping any kind of information from you all for nefarious purposes.

Even with the enormous success of the Kickstarter they still managed to get the first packages out at the time they ESTIMATED would be when they would ship. Seriously, even if they had every single package available before they started shipping it would take weeks to ship out 17,000+ packages. Try to get a little perspective here people.
And no, they can't just hire 30 temporary people to handle this as you can't just walk in off the street and know how things work in a logistics system like that.

And, again, all of this is ON TOP of their normal production and shipping. To get an idea of how much they produce on a daily basis, here are two videos which shows that. Video 1. Video 2.
You may think that it's terribly slow going, because (general) YOU haven't received your minis yet, but they've actually done better than pretty much any other Kickstarter and there are several people with shipping and logistics experience who are seriously impressed that they've been able to pull it off so far.

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It is not an extra month. It is two months and counting. March would have been on time. April, a month late. May makes two.

And that is not a bad offer. Too bad I am splitting my order with the rest of my gaming group. The fact I now look bad to them because of Reaper's incompetence adds to my ire. One member only games with us during the school year when he is here for college. He leaves in two weeks . . . Probably without his share of bones.
We will just have to agree to disagree. They dropped the ball.

Or you are one of the many people who do not understand how Kickstarter works. It's not a store front and you didn't put in an advance order.

The delivery date is an estimate (heck, it even says so right there on the page).

I think one of the commentators on the latest update summed it up nicely:

I can't fathom how someone could see a $30,000 project balloon into a $3,000,000 and not immediately understand that all previous delivery estimates are now null and void. Do you have no comprehension of how the logistics of manufacturing and fulfillment work? This is two orders of magnitude bigger than goal. That's huge.

Speaking as someone who has backed well over 200 Kickstarters, this has been one of the best run, most efficient, and most effective of them.
If you can't understand that...or are horrified that this is actually a pretty damn well run campaign...then I submit that Kickstarter isn't for you. In the future you should just wait until the minis are available at your favorite game store and buy them there.

We (my gaming group and I) are also eagerly awaiting our order (or orders, since some of us pledged separate orders too). It helps to look at the bigger picture and to have a little perspective about the fact that we are talking about what is basically a non-life essential toy (if your friend goes home from school you can still just send him his part, they are very light weight minis and you have already gotten free shipping on the original order). So we're looking forward to getting it, but also know that it'll get here when it gets here (which is going to take even longer since it's shipped international).

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Then they should have bumped back the delivery date before the KS closed.

I find it amazing how many of you are defending a company that's clearly screwed up their delivery date. In the real world, missing deadlines has consequences. Why should Reaper be immune?
It's put a damper on an otherwise excellent KS.

Tell you what, if you're so dismayed by the whole thing I'll make you an offer.

I'll pay you an additional 10% on top of what you pledged (via PayPal) and you'll change the shipping address on your pledge to my address.
That way you'll get more than your money back and you won't have to worry about any more delays.
Deal?

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Also, the best way to protect your painted minis, if you think they'll get some rough treatment once in a while, is to protect them with a gloss varnish first, then apply a matte varnish. The gloss varnishes are usually more durable than the mattes, so just a matte varnish won't protect them as good as a one-two punch of gloss-matte.

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GentleGiant wrote:

Inflammatory and insulting tirade

Sigh.... one can be self reliant without the need to go native. This style of attack against libertarian beliefs is getting old even for the OT section on the boards. This isn't a binary yes-no/all-or-nothing situation with regard to personal freedom and rights, but should be a series of degrees and compromises.

And cops are people, not miracle workers. While many police say they would like to see less guns out there on the streets (for their own safety) they also frequently admit that they are there to deal with a problem after the fact. Gov't is something that should NEVER be completely trusted - independent of party in power, your guy, his guy, etc. This is something I would not expect a outsider to really "get" when it comes to America.

And on the point of ignorance - if you understood American culture you might comprehend the very strong sense of independence and distrust we place in authority figures and institutions (rational or not) before you apply a European fix to American problems.

The irony of this whole argument is that the same people who are calling for increased gun control or wholesale bans on personal gun ownership (here and in other places) were the same ones questioning the increase in executive power, unfettered surveillance and in laws that suspend individual rights after the 9/11 attacks. Surrendering those freedoms was an overreaction to those attacks as are the calls to limit or ban gun ownership now after this attack.

Congratulations on utterly failing to comprehend what I wrote.

Not a single one of you alive have ever needed to distrust your government on the same level as your founding fathers distrusted the English king. So, again, fear. And, no, it is indeed not rational.

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Angstspawn wrote:

Digitalelf wrote:

A lot of people in the US do not serve a jail or prison sentence from possessing an illegal or unlicensed weapon (there are exceptions of course, like being a felon for example).

To be honest with you Digitalelf I think it's quite the same in Europe, not having any criminal record I hardly believe I'd actually serve a prison sentence even if caught with a bazooka, for sure I'd have to tell where I got it and from who and I'd gen fined. But for the first time without any criminal record, fully cooperating with police (and a good lawyer) I should be able to avoid jail.

We have a few serial killers in Europe which is the proof if needed that we can have extremely violent criminals but for reasons I can't explain, it seems to me, criminality is less violent here.
If anyone has an explanation or think I'm wrong, don't hesitate...

This thread moves very fast, still catching up.

An explanation is in the many other factors outside just the law.

The societies are very different, the attitudes are different. Europeons are much more responsible with alcohol for example*. These are also factors, in the US, society is very unstable, this instability leads to a greater number of conflicts (calm or violent) and so the greater number of conflicts will lead to a greater number of crime problems.

Could it be safer from criminals with gun laws? Sure, but I don't want to live in that kind of world, of needing someone else (the government, police) to look after me.

Part of the problem in the US, is guns are readily available, but few partake, and thus are more vulnerable when the bad guys that do partake come along. The fact that plenty decent folks who do partake don't have proper training makes things a touch worse.

* Old info from when my grandparents lived there, I suspect the difference of how alcohol is seen and treated , results in the greater responsibility. Even kids can drink a little bit with dinner or whatever, in America we treat it like some kind of taboo when dealing with kids, telling them only that they can't, but then glorify it in art available to kids. What are kids supposed to think about it? How are they suppossed to learn how to be responsible with it?

I believe this is mimiced in the gun control issues, as well as many other things probably.

American society is what makes this so bad, and is why I take other countries results with a large grain of salt. Those countries have been stable societies for centuries, the US however has never been stable, and the constant change as new peoples come and mix into the melting pot, makes for a very different reaction, even in neighboring locations within the US.

You would clearly have benefited from staying in school instead of joining the military, because you obviously have no frickin' idea of how society works.

You already DO have someone (government, police) looking after you. You probably wouldn't last long in your libertarian fantasy paradise. You certainly wouldn't enjoy all the benefits you enjoy today in current society.
But if you really want to be so "free" as you talk about all the time, I'd suggest you buy some farmland in the middle of nowhere and become entirely self sufficient. You can do that, right? You'd have no problem surviving under those circumstances, right?
If not, you've just proven your fantasy wrong.
If you had stayed in school you might also not be so factually wrong about other places in the world. Yes, relying on information from your grandparents is effing stupid when you can easily look up information which proves them utterly wrong in today's society.
Also, the age of the US as an excuse for a volatile society is bunk. Canada is much younger, yet they don't have the same gun issues.

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I have to reiterate what I've posted before.
I am truly sorry for some of you guys, you seem to live in a very dark, paranoid and abysmal alternative reality where you are scared of everyone.
Some of you even sound like you are more than just borderline paranoid and actually shouldn't be trusted with weapons.
In fact, it could be said that you are not truly as free as you think you are. You are held captive by irrational fears and invisible bogeymen. There is not much freedom in that.

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Bill Dunn wrote:

Killer_GM wrote:

Less poverty? You pay 60%+ in federal income tax. What's the point of going to work when 2/3 of your money goes to someone else. Living there, I'd opt to sit at home and watch the Swedish bikini team, instead of going to work.

That probably says more about you compared to the Swedes than you would like because it's not flattering. I guess they're just more industrious than you are.

Quite the contrary Bill. I used to work 60 hours per week. I now typically put in about 50 per week. They're not more industrious than I am. In many semi-socialist & outright socialist contries in Europe, workers work for 32-35 hours per week. That's it. France is an example of this. The French government under Sarkozy tried to move the hours French workers work up to 35 hours per week from 32, and there was a massive uproar in many cities in the country and some rioting. The French, and the Europeans in general (except for the Brits and the Germans) want to work 32 hours per week, retire at age 55-60, and be supported by their fellow countrymen with a buffet full of entitlement programs, and have pensions that pay 75%+ of their salaries. Simply put, it is financially UNSUSTAINABLE, and completely entitled. That is why europe is teetering on the brink of bankruptcy. They simply cannot pay for all the things they want to "give out for free." Not because they work too much. Rather, they want to take it easy and live 'La Dolce Vita.'

I'd suggest for you to only comment on things you actually have knowledge of. I've corrected you about the way you thought things worked here in Denmark. Again you're incorrect about how things work in the rest of Europe and you seem to have a very typical American skewed view of things over here.

That's the darn thing about just spouting off typical right wing talking points about Europe, on here there are several of us who can point out where you are factually wrong again and again.

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You previously mentioned the notion of "blame anything but the guns." I suspect that there are those who fit that label, though I don't think I qualify for that honor. I would pose the question to you, of whether or not you are a ‘blame nothing but the guns’ person yourself. Or am I misunderstanding you? The fact that many people (whether or not you are one is incidental) will not even consider that the movies, music, video games, the lack of morality/religion, or other factors in the culture at large, could be contributing factors to these mass killings/shootings should be equally troubling (and in my judgment) a more troubling phenomena. There have been 6 incidents of mass murder at schools in China since the year 2010. None of those incidents involved the use of firearms. Knives were the weapons used in all 6 incidents. A total of 21 children were killed in those six incidents in China. Forgive the smart-ass question, but how would gun control laws have stopped those?

Other contributing factors would be:

Great income inequality.
Poverty.
Less access to health care - both physical and mental.
Stigma related to mental illnesses.
A smaller or no social security net.

Incidentally, those are all factors the US and your example of China have in common.

Now, the inverse of that would be e.g. Scandinavia.
Fairly strict gun laws - mostly hunting weapons available and you have to take classes and pass a test to get your hunting and weapon license. Some very narrow professions are able to obtain handguns.
You also have to get a permit to obtain any bladed weapon larger than 7 cm (about 3 inches), at least here in Denmark - it's not that hard to get, but there are disqualifiers.
Less income inequality (although it's risen a bit during some right-of-center governments).
Less poverty.
Greater access to free health care - both physical and mental.
The stigma regarding mental illness is still too prevalent - that's unfortunately something we have in common.
A much larger social security net.
Oh, very secular populations too, as opposed to the very religious US - so there goes your blaming of "the lack of morality/religion" out the window too.
The result? Much, much, much less gun violence. Lower crime statistics in general.

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What Better Place Than Here? What Better Time Than Now?

“But if we take away legal gun ownership, people will just get them on the Black Market!” say the people who need their guns for the impending Civil War/Secession/Obama is Gonna Take My Guns/FEMA Camps/U.N. Takeover that is on the way. Isn’t it funny that the people who believe gun prohibition will lead to back alley sales don’t apply the same logic to abortion? If your first reaction, or even your second or third reaction to an entire classroom of kindergartners getting gunned down is, “Oh great, now Obama and the liberals are going to come for my guns” – That’s probably proof enough that you shouldn’t really have weapons around. Also: You are an a#*!+@!.

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I am truly sorry for some of you guys, you seem to live in a very dark, paranoid and abysmal alternative reality where you are scared of everyone.

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Some may view the right to religion as an outdated privilege. Certainly religion is used for oppression and violence of others, and the removal of it could arguable make life more peaceful.

You can't kill someone with religion. Religion might spur you to kill other people (as we've seen with pretty much every religion), but you don't kill them with religion itself. So it's an absurd comparison.

In my country if enough people believe that something is no longer a right, they can take measures to change it. That it is extremely difficult to do so (and should be, rights should not be removed merely because people are upset for a day or a week or month) shouldn't be an excuse not to do it. It can be done.

See below.

As for technology changes, well it is a good thing that the people that wrote that law weren't familiar with technological advancement. I mean, yeah, they could have looked back and saw that societies had moved from slings and spears to arrows to crossbows to muskets. I mean it is clear they didn't think that it would ever advance further, that is why they put in the phrase, "...right to bear a musket..."

I think you give too much credit to those people. Sure, they were probably a pretty smart bunch, but for them to foresee todays automatic weapons? Get a grip.

Besides, they put in place rules for changing the laws. You don't need to bear arms today, nor do you need a militia. So it's time to change the laws.

Right to life? Oh no, are we going to have an abortion debate now.

You know perfectly well what I mean, since I've mentioned it above too. The right not to be killed by someone else using a gun.

Funny, in my country we have laws that punish people that use their guns to harm others. Is that something other countries don't do? You do something that harms others, you lose your rights. But if you do something that harms others doesn't mean that your neighbor should lose their rights as well.

Retroactively, yes. But by then it's already too late for the victims.

How about being proactive for once?
By your line of thinking here, you should be able to possess any type of weapon. Just because your neighbour nuked someone shouldn't mean that you can't have nukes, right?
Or maybe limit it to those weapons you can "bear" (according to Justice Scalia), so you'd be limited to stuff like rocket launchers and such. On the other hand, you could actually carry around small tactical nukes.

No one "should" need one. Sadly, there are too many cases where other people try to harm someone and they do need something to protect themselves. What is the old saying, "God made man, but Samuel Colt made them equal." As someone that is smaller than average, the idea that I should be protect my family with my bare hands in the same way that a 6'3" 270 lb guy could and if I can't then I some how deserve to be victimized is offensive.

There are many other ways to defend yourself. Get a dog. Have a club like object ready. Take self defense classes. No one has mentioned anything about defending themselves bare handed.

Oh, and work to make your society a place where people don't need to attack others or burglarize them, that should cut down on your need to defend yourself too.

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A part of the problem of these incidents is because so many people don't carry the weapons around with them to put a stop to them.

If any of the adults there had a gun, they could of used it against the shooter, putting a stop to him before he killed so many.

In fact this actually happened at the recent mall shooting when a shopper took out his gun and pointed at the shooter, the shooter stopped shooting everyone else, and took his own life.

I do agree with schools having classes on guns, and needing a liscense is a good idea as well, but also the ability to actually carry weapons around will help (how much it helps depends on how many actually do so) because then people present will be more likely to be able to stop an individual from doing harm.

Yes, because every gun owner is a deadshot John McClane, instantly ready and prepared to take out any would be shooter, with no risk to anyone in the vicinity, certainly not kids in a classroom.

Reality called, you're way over the border.

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GentleGiant wrote:

I still think there's one very crucial question that hasn't been answered yet.

How can you (general Jewish you) justify doing to someone else what you decry has been done to you in the past (and has sought amendment for - to the point of getting a whole country (which apparently wasn't enough))?

On a conceptual scale there is no excuse whatsoever to opress any people, and that has nothing to do with the fact that Jews were opressed themselves. There's simply no excuse for some of the crimes Israel is commiting.

On a pragmatic scale though, given the reality right now, SOME of the opresion is a necessity of reality. Right now there's a whole group of people living in Gaza who are out for Israeli blood. So the long lines at the gates of the security fence? kind of a necessity, you have to double check every single car. The fence itself? before we built it there was a crushing wave of suicide bombers who struck several times a week. Thing in Gaza have been getting worse and worse lately and that's because with every escalation in the conflict Israel took more and more severe measures to ensure the safety of it's citizens. Ever been to an airport? remember all the redundant security measures meant to ensure NOTHING can get past them and take down an aircraft? Everywhere in Israel is like that. To enter a shopping mall or a train station you go through a metal detector and an x ray scanner checks your bag, or if you are in a car you are stopped and your baggae is examined. And those are the protocols withing Israel itself - obviously on the border things are more intense.

Since there is no agreement that could lead to a quick peaceful solution of the conflict (The most problematic issue is the right of return), Israel can be understood in taking extreme measures to prevent attacks on it's population.

Can you understand that in sympathise with that? if you can't then there's no point in us talking because that's the reality around here. If you can then you'll see that (some) of the opression is a necessity and that the Palestinian people are a victim of circumstances. It just seems that there is nothing else that can be done right now.

You're handily ignoring that the cause of all of the above is because you (the Israeli state) is the reason you are getting attacked. Constant expansion, no acknowledgement of being the guilty party in much of this, making life miserable for people who were there in the first place etc. - apparently Israelis can't fathom that this might be the cause of why they are attacked all the time.

So you're trying to justify the "security measures" you have to take by pointing to the attacks, which happen because of said "security measures" - it's
YOU (the Israeli state) have key to all of this. Going back to the '48 or '67 border would be a first step.
Just throwing your hands up and saying "Well, that's how things are" isn't going to change things one bit - except ensure the slow destruction of Palestinian territories.
If you (the Israeli people) can't convince your politicians that this has to happen, then you have to live with the consequences of your inaction and you have only yourself to blame, not the Palestinians.
So, if you're really interested in stopping all of this, now is the time to start organizing people. Hold protests, write your government, gain traction among the people. If things are so hard with constant bombardments I'm sure you should have no problem finding lots of people who are tired of it, right?

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I still think there's one very crucial question that hasn't been answered yet.
How can you (general Jewish you) justify doing to someone else what you decry has been done to you in the past (and has sought amendment for - to the point of getting a whole country (which apparently wasn't enough))?

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Newsflash: Don't want to read it? Don't click on the link. Quite a simple and ingenious solution really.
Enough said.

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If getting a firearm is apparently so difficult already (at least according to some) and no tightening of the restrictions are necessary, here's something to think about:
Eight Things More Difficult Than Owning a Gun

Yes, yes, it's a HuffPost article, but it's backed up by links to governmental and other pages

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I find it "interesting" (from both a psychological and sociological point of view) that we see these tragedies happen again and again, yet nothing really seems to change, while on the other hand 4 people (who knew they were working in a potentially volatile area of the world) are killed in an embassy across the globe and everyone is in uproar, congressional hearings are held and politicians are willing to stake their careers on the issue.
20+ killed, most of them kindergarten kids, and people are apparently still unwilling to take a look at (and do something about!) the sociological, mental and physical aspects of why this happened.
The right (it's really a privilege, not a right) to own instruments of death (and that's all a gun is - whether for hunting or killing people) apparently trumps the rights of other people to live in safety from said instruments of death.

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Just go to eBay and do a search for 100 25mm bases (or other sizes, like e.g. 40mm) and you'll find loads and often rather cheap ones.
Here's a readymade search

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And now the Israeli government has proclaimed the building of more settlements.
I can see how it's difficult to stop the religious wackos when they are backed by the government. How is that in any way a way to reach a peaceful agreement with the Palestinians? No, Israel isn't interested in peace.
It has become the very definition of hypocrisy, doing to others what they have complained about have been done to them in the past.
If you're not actively trying to change that from within, you're complicit in supporting that stance.

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Thank you very much north king- love that answer and very helpful .

It is so easy gentle giant. We all live by restrictions and laws that are supposed to make our lives better. Being a christian I need to be aware of god's laws even more as they are for our eternal benefit. I could go out and have an affair but my wife presumably would not approve and there would be consequences. I do appreciate your comment thoug.

I am now off to work for aong day nursing at the local hospital. Enjoy yourselves

Now, I'm an atheist, so obviously my point of view is a little different from yours.

But I ask again, what does that have to do with the people in your church? You don't have to live by their restrictions and rules. If you are unsure about the answer concerning your religion, why not seek out the answer on your own? Who says that the people from your church knows the laws of your god better than you? They are just people too.
Have some confidence in your own ability to deem what is right and wrong for YOU, according to your faith. Not what is right or wrong in the minds of the people from your church.

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I could write a really snarky reply about who to trust the most on this issue, but I'll save that for another day. ;-)
Instead I'll just ask you this:
Why are you concerned about what they will say? If you enjoy RPGs why would you let other people's opinions keep you from having fun? Are you not the best arbiter concerning what you enjoy or don't enjoy?
It's like so many other situations, are they really your friends if they won't let you enjoy a harmless pastime? Are they really your friends if they'll only accept you if you fit into their preconceived notion of who you should be and what you should do?
If they aren't even your "friends" as such, but "just" people from your church, why does their opinion even matter?
Take charge of your own life and do what you enjoy.

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BigNorseWolf wrote:

What you get is a story. What you can clearly see is that israel is larger than originally intended (and if you think there's legitimacy in a UN sanction, originally sanctioned) and that not only is the Palestinian section MUCH smaller than was intended, not only is it smaller than is sustainable, but its also broken up by areas of Isreali control. Those tiny areas are even less sustainable than even the small area would be in aggregate.

But what is it a story of?

Without seeing things like population centers, or demographic data, all I'm seeing is a relentless expansion of one color over another...

The reality is that the Jewish population was concentrated in certain areas, and the Palestinian population wasn't uniform across that Green that we see in 1947. We don't see how many people were where, or who they were, we don't see critical things like the fact that the Negev desert to the south is incredibly inhospitable, or the population concentrations on the coast and near Jerusalem. We don't see where water is, or the fact that half-a-million or more additional Jews are going to flood the new state of Israel within a few years of 1947, we don't see arable land, and on and on and on and on and on.

Nope. Just two colors.

So all of that justifies the expansion of said territory?

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Without doing any kind of research as to whether there's already a thread like this, I decided that I would make a separate thread about painting tutorials.

There are numerous painting tutorials out there, some on regular websites, some on forums, some on YouTube and you can even buy some on DVDs. Oh books about it too.

For this first post I'll focus on YouTube videos, or more specifically YouTube channels, where you can find painting tutorials.
Later on I might post links to other websites and forums (if other people don't link to them first).
Note: Many of these tutorials feature Games Workshop miniatures, but the techniques apply no matter where the miniatures are from.
Second note: Many of the channels will also have videos on other aspects surrounding painting miniatures, like discussions about paint brushes, paints, how to make a wet palette, other tools etc.

Beginners:
GirlPainting - Alexandra will guide you through a lot of great tips, from beginning steps to more advanced techniques.

MrWatchingpaintdry - Lots of tutorials with pictures and a step-by-step description of what he's doing on the miniature.

Doctor Faust's Painting Clinic.

Jawaballs - Primarily focused on Warhammer 40k miniatures, but also some orcs and other miniatures. Again, the techniques can be applied to a whole variety of miniatures.

Advanced:
AwesomePaintJob - Les Bursley is an amazing painter and has lots of tutorials and show pieces where he paints a miniature from start to finish (speeded up a bit, but still). I've placed Les in the advanced category, because he usually uses an airbrush on most of his models. Many people don't have one (or can afford one) so some of his techniques might be harder to replicate. However, with thinned down paints and many layers, some of them can be done with a brush too. But he also has many other techniques which can be done by most people.

Buypainted - Polish guy with a great, thick accent. ;-)
Again this is placed in the advanced category because he uses an airbrush for most of his work. Still lots of inspiration and tutorials, including bases etc.

SchnauzerFaceMinis - Again, airbrush use, but also regular painting techniques.

There are more channels out there, but this should get you started!

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I am worried that you are making a program with a mind to be able to individually charge for all the pre-existing cartography, NPC and monster artwork that you currently own.

I am not interested in buying a basic program and then having to individually micro purchase all the content I need to use the program the way I want to. I would much rather pay a lump sum to get the program and all the content that Paizo can offer inside it. Otherwise it's a turn off. You don't buy the Angry Birds app and then have to buy the next ten levels when you get up to the second world.

I know the Paizo cartographer is constantly creating new great content for PFS, Adventure Paths and much, much more. Why not have two products?
1. Gamespace VTT package (loads of core content, 40+ maps, all bestiaries, homebrew features for custom tokens and custom maps)
2. Constant Content VTT subscription (everything else and everything new)
This would allow the subscribers to get everything new without having to process constant micropayments.

Also, there needs to be an easy method to upload your own token images. I support what everyone else has said about wanting to upload their custom art of their characters or favourite NPCs, rather than using some Paizo art of a pre-existing character.

I would also strongly urge you to make sure that the program is more simple and easier to use than Maptools. Roleplayers tend to be a technologically savvy bunch, but not all of us have maxed their ranks on custom software use (including me).

Really excited about this project, keep up the good work!

It's not an actual separate program you buy and run, like e.g. Maptools. It's a web based, in-browser program/app which you access through a browser from anywhere (similar to what roll20.net is doing).

It's also free to use, so you're not buying anything off the bat to use it. You'll only have to buy some of the content, but not, from what Vic and Gary has said so far, some basic elements to get everyone started.

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I'll just repost what I wrote on one of the Paizo blog posts about the Bones deal (including an extra link):

I can understand the confusion among some here, as terms are flying all around and to anyone who hasn't done any painting before, these terms aren't self-explanatory.

So, this is the easy guide to getting very presentable miniatures that anyone can do, even if they haven't painted a miniature before in their lives.
There are more "complicated" methods if you want to learn to "paint for real" but I'll skip those and you can find tons of tutorials out there on the net and you can buy books about it too (and even DVDs, Robert Hawkshaw has mentioned a couple of them above - the major companies like Games Workshop and some miniature sellers, like MiniWarGaming.com, also have DVDs available).

The easy method to getting quite good painted miniatures, also known as "dipping":
You have an adventurer-type miniature you'd like to paint.

These are the steps you'll go through:
1) Prime the miniature (can probably be skipped for the Bones miniatures).
2) Put down a base coat of appropriate colours.
3) Dip or wash the miniatures and allow to dry
4) Spray them to get rid of the shine and/or to protect them from wear and tear.
That's it.

A more in-depth explanation:
1) First you would take a white spray primer and spray it to get a solid foundation for the paint to sit on. This step can apparently be skipped with the Bones miniatures, since they take the paint better than e.g. metal miniatures.
If you do prime them, I'd recommend using a white primer, since we want the miniature to be as bright as possible and some colours can be difficult to paint over a black primer. Prime the miniature with light dustings instead of a thick full on blast, which might obscure details on the miniature (there are tutorials out there on how to prime correctly, again, it's quite simple)
Another option is to use a coloured primer, e.g. one from Army Painter, if you have a miniature that's mostly one colour. For instance, you could use a green primer if you have a bunch of orcs with lots of skin showing. Or a green troll. Or maybe a blue or red dragon.

2) Now you put on the base coat of colours. If you can colour within the lines of a colouring book, you can do this step. :-)
I think it's also the step that most people are "afraid" of, since this is where you put the actual coloured paint on them.
So, this is very basic. You put flesh coloured paint on the skin areas (e.g. face, hands, arms etc.), maybe a red colour on the cloak, a leather colour on the boots and any belts, pouches etc. and a silver metallic colour on weapon blades and other metal objects.
Since we're doing the dipping method here, it's important to not choose too dark colours. So e.g. the red for the cloak should be just a tad bit brighter red than you would like the end result. This is because the dipping itself darkens the colours a bit.
Make sure you have all the areas covered and tidy up any place where you might have splashed a different colour in the wrong area.
Some colours, particularly reds and yellows, can be a bit transparent, so you might have to go over those areas twice to get a consistent covering.
If the miniature has areas that you'd like to keep white, just leave them be with the undercoat (if it's even enough).

3) Now for the actual "dipping" part.
You have two options here. You can go with a "dip" or a wash. The results might vary a bit, but as far as technique, they are pretty similar.
A wash is a thinned down paint-type product. I think all the major brands of miniature paints have them in their product lines. Some examples are Devlan Mud, Gryphonne Sepia and Dheneb Stone from Games Workshop (I think they've replaces those with others now, haven't kept up), Army Painter Strong Tone ink wash etc.
A "dip" product is a tinted varnish, either one of the Army Painter Shades or a floor wax like the Minwax Polyshade Mahogany Dip.
Both types of products come in various strengths of darkness and even in various colours (this is especially true of the washes, so you can get blue washes or green washes - the green washes might be suitable for a troll miniature or a sickly green zombie etc.)
Both types of products will flow into the recesses of the miniature and produce shading and even a slight transition from the shaded area to the "highlighted" area (i.e. the most natural light exposed area).
You apply both types of products liberally with a brush so all areas are covered. For the dip products, use an old slightly larger and cheaper brush since it's a varnish product and you'll have to clean the brush afterwards in e.g. turpentine.
You CAN dip the entire miniature (provided it's small enough) into the can of dip and then shake the miniature vigorously to get rid of any excess dip, but you have more control if you apply it with a brush.
Allow the dipped miniatures to dry at least 24 hours before handling them, to let them fully dry and avoid making fingerprints on them.

4) If you do use a dip product the result will be a very shiny miniature (because they are varnishes) so you'll have to spray them with a matte sealer, like the one from Army Painter or a product like Testors Dullcote.
This will also protect the washed miniatures if you expect them to be handled a bit roughly.

Now for some examples.
Here's an example of different models which have been dipped, pay particular attention to the post mid-way down the page (the bottom picture also shows the result of putting a matte varnish on a shiny dipped miniature). Heck, that post mid-way down the page also contains instructions on how to do it.

This page and the next 3 pages, contains pictures of a small dwarven army which has been dipped (he uses the "shake vigorously" method first, which can be quite messy).
Same guy and pictures, just gathered in one post on another forum.

Loooots of pictures of different kinds of dipped miniatures.

Jawaballs is one of the guys who has a painting channel on YouTube and here he shows the whole process (be sure to watch all 3 videos of this).

Last tip!
If unsure about this method, try it out on something you're not worried about getting messed up. Heck, you can even try it out on some cheap plastic army men from the toy store.

***************

Just another video of some great dipping results.

Extra info:
Testors DullCote is indeed a very good product. It is also crazily expensive compared to the amount you get and it's not available everywhere outside the US.
Here's a video comparison of DullCote vs. Army Painter Anti-shine

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I just hope that the female side of the discussion can also appreciate that it sucks to be constantly viewed as a potential rapist or violent offender because some of our gender are douche bags and a%~$~*$s, and that it's also a bit insulting to be told by women that "well, that's just how it is, learn to live with it - we reserve the right to judge you by the actions of others who are total strangers to you."
If that is the default position, then nothing is ever going to be changed, not by anyone here nor by the Atheism Plus women.

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I can understand the confusion among some here, as terms are flying all around and to anyone who hasn't done any painting before, these terms aren't self-explanatory.

So, this is the easy guide to getting very presentable miniatures that anyone can do, even if they haven't painted a miniature before in their lives.
There are more "complicated" methods if you want to learn to "paint for real" but I'll skip those and you can find tons of tutorials out there on the net and you can buy books about it too (and even DVDs, Robert Hawkshaw has mentioned a couple of them above - the major companies like Games Workshop and some miniature sellers, like MiniWarGaming.com, also have DVDs available).

The easy method to getting quite good painted miniatures, also known as "dipping":
You have an adventurer-type miniature you'd like to paint.

These are the steps you'll go through:
1) Prime the miniature (can probably be skipped for the Bones miniatures).
2) Put down a base coat of appropriate colours.
3) Dip or wash the miniatures and allow to dry
4) Spray them to get rid of the shine and/or to protect them from wear and tear.
That's it.

A more in-depth explanation:
1) First you would take a white spray primer and spray it to get a solid foundation for the paint to sit on. This step can apparently be skipped with the Bones miniatures, since they take the paint better than e.g. metal miniatures.
If you do prime them, I'd recommend using a white primer, since we want the miniature to be as bright as possible and some colours can be difficult to paint over a black primer. Prime the miniature with light dustings instead of a thick full on blast, which might obscure details on the miniature (there are tutorials out there on how to prime correctly, again, it's quite simple)
Another option is to use a coloured primer, e.g. one from Army Painter, if you have a miniature that's mostly one colour. For instance, you could use a green primer if you have a bunch of orcs with lots of skin showing. Or a green troll. Or maybe a blue or red dragon.

2) Now you put on the base coat of colours. If you can colour within the lines of a colouring book, you can do this step. :-)
I think it's also the step that most people are "afraid" of, since this is where you put the actual coloured paint on them.
So, this is very basic. You put flesh coloured paint on the skin areas (e.g. face, hands, arms etc.), maybe a red colour on the cloak, a leather colour on the boots and any belts, pouches etc. and a silver metallic colour on weapon blades and other metal objects.
Since we're doing the dipping method here, it's important to not choose too dark colours. So e.g. the red for the cloak should be just a tad bit brighter red than you would like the end result. This is because the dipping itself darkens the colours a bit.
Make sure you have all the areas covered and tidy up any place where you might have splashed a different colour in the wrong area.
Some colours, particularly reds and yellows, can be a bit transparent, so you might have to go over those areas twice to get a consistent covering.
If the miniature has areas that you'd like to keep white, just leave them be with the undercoat (if it's even enough).

3) Now for the actual "dipping" part.
You have two options here. You can go with a "dip" or a wash. The results might vary a bit, but as far as technique, they are pretty similar.
A wash is a thinned down paint-type product. I think all the major brands of miniature paints have them in their product lines. Some examples are Devlan Mud, Gryphonne Sepia and Dheneb Stone from Games Workshop (I think they've replaces those with others now, haven't kept up), Army Painter Strong Tone ink wash etc.
A "dip" product is a tinted varnish, either one of the Army Painter Shades or a floor wax like the Minwax Polyshade Mahogany Dip.
Both types of products come in various strengths of darkness and even in various colours (this is especially true of the washes, so you can get blue washes or green washes - the green washes might be suitable for a troll miniature or a sickly green zombie etc.)
Both types of products will flow into the recesses of the miniature and produce shading and even a slight transition from the shaded area to the "highlighted" area (i.e. the most natural light exposed area).
You apply both types of products liberally with a brush so all areas are covered. For the dip products, use an old slightly larger and cheaper brush since it's a varnish product and you'll have to clean the brush afterwards in e.g. turpentine.
You CAN dip the entire miniature (provided it's small enough) into the can of dip and then shake the miniature vigorously to get rid of any excess dip, but you have more control if you apply it with a brush.
Allow the dipped miniatures to dry at least 24 hours before handling them, to let them fully dry and avoid making fingerprints on them.

4) If you do use a dip product the result will be a very shiny miniature (because they are varnishes) so you'll have to spray them with a matte sealer, like the one from Army Painter or a product like Testors Dullcote.
This will also protect the washed miniatures if you expect them to be handled a bit roughly.

Now for some examples.
Here's an example of different models which have been dipped, pay particular attention to the post mid-way down the page (the bottom picture also shows the result of putting a matte varnish on a shiny dipped miniature). Heck, that post mid-way down the page also contains instructions on how to do it.

This page and the next 3 pages, contains pictures of a small dwarven army which has been dipped (he uses the "shake vigorously" method first, which can be quite messy).
Same guy and pictures, just gathered in one post on another forum.

Loooots of pictures of different kinds of dipped miniatures.

Jawaballs is one of the guys who has a painting channel on YouTube and here he shows the whole process (be sure to watch all 3 videos of this).

Last tip!
If unsure about this method, try it out on something you're not worried about getting messed up. Heck, you can even try it out on some cheap plastic army men from the toy store.

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Yeah I see what they said. Unfortunately many in the OTD see people who support traditional marriage as hateful.

I personally don't see supporters of "traditional" marriage as hateful. Outdated, out of touch with the history of marriage and grounded in a religious meaning that happens to only apply to their religion and which just happens to also agree with their own personal opinion of LGBT people, yes. Hateful, not necessarily.

Spreading falsehoods and lies about LGBT people, like the Family Research Council does, that's hateful, however.

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Fleshgrinder wrote:

Could someone clear something up for me?

The US government spends twice as much money per person on healthcare than the Canadian government does.

Now, for that cost, the government covers most of our bills.

Yet the US government covers nothing unless you qualify for medicare or medicade.

So where is the money being spent?

How can the US spend twice as much per person and not actually be providing anything when Canada provides almost full coverage?

Well, people on Medicare and Medicaid do eat up a lot of the money, because they're largely either old or very sick. In either case, that's when a huge chunk of medical expense comes.

The Feds also pick up the tab for the military, both active service and veterans. Many of them have expensive health costs too.

And the insurance for government employees. No more expensive than average, but does cover a lot of people.

So it's a larger chunk of the population than it seems at first glance and a more expensive one.

The Canadian system does the same thing, as does every other universal health care system. So I think Fleshgrinder's question still stands.

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Right now people in the U.S. are paying huge insurance premiums. Even then they might not be covered in all cases and can go bankrupt for something they have no control over. Also lots of people don't have insurance/can't afford insurance and usually end up costing a whole lot more when they eventually get hospitalized with one or more things they've put off for far too long. And you're paying to companies whose only motivation is more profit, not your health and well-being.
Contrast that with a universal system where people would pay the same, or most likely less, because you eliminate the for-profit motive - although it would be drawn as a tax instead. No fear of going bankrupt. You're covered no matter what your ailment is and what income bracket you're in. You'll have more people getting regular check-ups, thus hopefully preventing or at least catching serious ailments before they get out of control.

It should be a no-brainer to choose the second version, but so many in the U.S. is against it because of some misguided fear of the "evil government" - it's mind boggling for the rest of us in the industrialized world how a country as advanced as the U.S. is so utterly backwards in this area.

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Plus you might avoid people like this guy... ;-)

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As a behavior analyst, working in public schools in Indiana, I believe that teaching higher order critical thinking skills is sorely lacking in this state. The teachers are so hamstrung by being forced to teach children to pass standardized tests. One 5th grade science teacher complained to me that he couldn't teach his kids about scientific methodology because it wasn't covered in the standardized tests. So, his kids didn't learn how to apply what they were learning... Amazing.

*facepalm*

On the issue of behavior management and the teaching of morality, it is a silly argument. The problem behaviors identified by educational teams (which must include the parents) in the case of an individual child, are addressed to help the child function more appropriately and efficiently so that they better succeed. What is more moral than that? The worry about parents not controlling the overall moral tenets of their child's education is rediculous. The parents must agree to any behavioral plan that is put in place to help their child. If by behavior management, the Texas GOP means, generalized behavioral modification in the classroom, again there is no issue. Teachers ALL use behavior modification in the classroom. Always have. Example: if a classroom acts poorly, they lose recess. That is a form of behavior management that teaches students that thei behavior influences the consequences that are provided: true operant (negative punishment) behaviorism. Whether I agree or disagree with the approach does not mean I question the "morality" of the intervention or of the desired result (a more managable classroom), It only means I question the effectiveness of the intervention.

That's not what they're opposing. They're opposing the kids finding out that gays are nice people too (heck, maybe even that they exist) and that not everyone agrees with their superior Christian "morals."

It really seems to boil down to that.

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I don't profess to know anything about Danish freedoms or the Danish military. My remarks concern freedoms of US citizens laid out in the Bill of Rights and the US military's role in ensuring those freedoms. My remarks have nothing to do with you, your country, or your military. At the very least stop putting words in my mouth about what I am or am not "basically saying." You don't know me at all.

You said that the military is a guarantor of the freedoms US citizens currently enjoy... is it really a long shot to extrapolate that this should then also be the same for every other country?

What makes the US so special that it has more "freedoms" to protect with their military than any other nation?
And you fall into the typical groove of many people and just keep on about these ephemeral "freedoms" without defining them. It's typical patriotic propaganda and doesn't really mean anything.
"But they'll take away our FREEDOMS!"
What freedoms and who are they? (note, I'm not claiming you've said that, but it's just an example of the typical rhetoric).
So, again, please define these freedoms which are special to the US and how the enormous amount of money spent on the military protects these freedoms is better than providing (or at least not making things worse) for the ordinary US citizen who might need a helping hand.
Otherwise it's just empty rhetoric and we can dismiss it with the same ease you proclaim it.

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If you don't think the military is beneficial to the state as a guarantor of the freedoms you currently enjoy and a protection from the aggression of hostile powers, then I'm not sure this is a conversation we can have because we're going to disagree about fundamental assumptions.

In comparison with this, you're basically saying that all the nations who don't spend as much on their military don't enjoy the "freedoms" (whatever that means) and "protection from the aggression of hostile powers" (who are they again?) that the US does.

What foreign hostile power is on the verge of invading the US?
Do you disagree that the vast amount of money spent on the US military could be spent more beneficially in helping and restoring the country internally?
I live in a country that doesn't spend a fraction of what the US does and I feel quite free. In fact, I'd say that I enjoy more "freedoms" than most people in the US do. I also am not fearful for being invaded by any foreign nation. And no, that's not because the US is "protecting us all."

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How about that the military isn't anywhere near as corrupt and bloated as the welfare system? Or that funding to the military provides an actual benefit to the state and to those who put their lives on the line to protect the state. Welfare moochers (and I am not saying that everyone on welfare is a moocher) provide zero benefit to society and demand that the rest of us subsidize their laziness.

Protect the state from what? How does the massive spending on the military in the US protect it? The only time soldiers put their lives on the line is through the military missions the US has been doing in other people's countries. How is that beneficial to the state?

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Two more comments:
Are people really envious of these people who apparently have "breeding farms" in order to get more benefits? People who live off food stamps with 6-9 kids. Is that an envious place to be in life? If so, I can't relate to what you seem to think is a good life.

Second:

I know a lady who has 9 kids and all the kids and her get the "crazy" check. At current rates that means $6980.00 dollars per month.

In addition the government pays out about $4,504,000,000.00 per year (edit seems that amount is supposed to be monthly) to people getting SSI (crazy) checks. These are children and adults who either have never worked enough for Social Security disability benefits or never worked at all.

"Crazy" checks? Seriously?

Let me see if I can put this mildly... F&%+ YOU!
How the f+~% dare you call people with mental illness for crazy people and deride the fact that they might be so debilitated by their illness that they can't hold down an ordinary job!

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Another foreign perspective.
There are many things I love about the U.S., many things I envy a lot of you. Two things, however, I do not.
Your health care system and your welfare system.

In my situation the two go hand in hand, seeing how I'm receiving SSI (I think that's the equivalent to what we have, basically "early retirement/pension") because of a mental health diagnosis (and no, it's not a bogus one and I don't go out drugging or knocking women up).
It's bad enough to be looked down on by most of society here (a lot of people seem to have problems accepting "invisible" ailments, why can't I just get a job? Get a grip and pull myself up by my bootstraps?), but some of the sentiments I've read in this thread seems to be even worse.
I also wonder if I would have gotten the help I (finally) got if I had lived in the U.S. - considering the fact that I first started my downward spiral at university (luckily "free" over here)? So I wouldn't have had any insurance.
It also seems like I would have to live on a very bare minimum, barely able to buy anything besides food (my RPG hobby? Foggetaboutit!).
So... what? I would be confined to my cheap housing apartment, no pastime activities (I'm not allowed to spend money on that, if I even had any), barely any contact with the outside world (something as fancy as a computer with a high speed internet connection? Ha!), just sitting there with my food (I'm allowed to buy that!) and slowly rotting away.
At least according to what it seems some people here think is reasonable when you're receiving government assistance (other people's hard earned money! And don't you forget that you ungrateful lout!).

No, regarding that part I'm glad I live here in Denmark where I get enough to live a sustainable life, while still having money to own a computer, a smartphone (seriously, they're not really THAT expensive) and a few subscriptions from Paizo. And that's while still paying 39% taxes.
What scares me, though, is the rhetoric that has been growing lately, where more people (mostly on the right side of the political spectrum, funnily enough, although some in our center-left government seem to take that stance too) are jumping on the "keep your hands off MY hard earned money, I got mine, so F&~! you!"
Of course, most of this rhetoric is coming from the people, like it was also mentioned above, who don't think they'll ever end up in a situation where they need government aid (whoops, is that a drunk driver heading in your direction? Better make sure he doesn't hit you).

Another point. If all of these "moochers" were to go out and look for a job... would they find one?
It's one thing to say that people shouldn't get benefits but should just find a job instead. That, however, also requires there actually being jobs for them to get.

I apologize if the above seems muddled, I really need to go to bed now... Zzzzzzz

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Well, thejeff has already answered much like I would, so... erm, +1?

Also, it's still a problem if most Christians don't think morality can be legislated but they don't oppose those supposedly very minor factions who DO pressure to legislate their kind of morality on the rest of the country. But we've been over this several times just in this thread.

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Truth be told, Zimmerman took a thug off the street. Guess Mr. No Limit Ninja shouldn't have brought Skittles to a gunfight.

And you're the one calling others racist nitwits? Takes one to know one I guess.

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Ethics aren't evidential, either, but most people consider them pretty applicable nonetheless and use them on a daily basis. I'd wager that most of us also have some a priori ethical assumptions and, generally, do pick the ethical arguments that tickle our fancies.

The results of ethics are, however, evidential to a large degree, since it deals with actual situations (involving humans, animals, the environment etc).

There is no outside governing "force" to put into the equation as there is with theology.

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Me with my new shirt

I read that as "Me without a shirt" at first and wasn't sure I wanted to click on the link. :-p

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I think another important aspect isn't so much in the actual teaching of science. Frankly, I don't think (proper*) science education in the US is that much different from science education in other parts of the world.
Where I think one of the biggest obstacles lies, as has also been pointed out before in the thread, is the competition with religion and the influence religion has on the kids (and in some areas the curriculum itself). In e.g. Western Europe, religion doesn't play as big a role outside the class room, so there's less pressure on the kids to doubt science education.
So, in short, I think it's a bigger issue how to deal with the anti-science indoctrination that's occurring outside the school.

* By "proper" I mean science taught by teachers who aren't e.g. creationists and try to either "teach the controversy" or in some other way put doubt into the minds of the students by continually saying something akin to: "now kids, remember, evolution is only a theory..."

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We should start a Paizo Onanist Community Thread.

Wouldn't that qualify as a religion? ;-)

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Regarding the burden of proof.

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Depending on your specific needs there are a whole slew of available software out there. Here are some places to start:

List of mapping software on Cartographers' Guild

Creating impressive dungeon maps in minutes

If you really want to get into mapmaking yourself, I can recommend Cartographers' Guild mentioned above or take a look at Jonathan Roberts' work (he has a lot of tutorials available). Here's the link to his Facebook page (he also has a blog and a Google+ page - you can find them through this page too): Fantastic Maps on Facebook

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Freehold DM wrote:

Don Juan de Doodlebug wrote:

Meh. Straight or gay, when it comes to fun sexytime, people (mostly, but not limited to, men in their teens and tweens) act like douchebags.

As ever, I find it fascinating the blinders both genders put on when it comes to feminine douchebaggery.

That's an unfair statement, and unfounded, IMO (one might even say "douchey"). I think most people generally are 1) aware that "people are jerks," and I just don't know about men, but based on my experience, women certainly do not put on blinders when it comes to either how high or how low another woman can go.

But at the same time I am uncomfortable speaking in general terms either way (and am unqualified to speak for anyone but myself)--there's a lot of diversity in behavior amongst men, women, trans, and genderqueer, so let's try to avoid the sweeping, grand statements, especially when they're backhandedly accusatory, okay?

I think Freehold DM might be talking from a "straight" perspective (I know, it's a strange label, but bear with me). Sure, most people know that both men and women can be douchebags, if pressed on the issue. But the standard position seems to be, especially among women, that most men are dogs and creeps. It just seems to be the default answer, even though they in reality DO know that not all men are like that. I guess it's a defence mechanism. It's just so sad that it's so ingrained.

This might stem from the obvious fact that most straight women haven't had to deal with other women in a romantic (or rather, not so romantic) fashion, so they only have one "actual/real/personal" perspective on the matter (as opposed to experiencing the same thing from their own gender).
And, yes, it's also a generalization, because obviously not all straight women are like that. I do have to say, though, from personal experience, that it's very commonplace (not because I've been accused of it, quite the contrary in fact, but from listening to women friends of mine).

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I respect everyones opinion.

Except when they're atheists "attempting to slowly transform American society" apparently.

To say I believe your idea is crazy is one thing but to say a person is crazy is another, like you have. Cease the name calling.

Yes, I believe that atheists are attempting to slowly transform American society. Thats not crazy its a fact. Its what atheist organization strive to do.

Atheists come to mock and resent public displays of faith, or any acknowledgment of God or religion by the state. The mere suggestion that the country is in fact a Christian one is declared backward, dangerous, and heretical to the Constitution of the United States.

Do I think its persecution in the scale Christians face in in Iraq, Nigeria, Egypt, No!
That is the context in which your failing to see or simply ignoring.

@ Everyone:
I want to stay on track with what has been posted in the last couple pages. I don't want my response to Samnell to be a distraction to that.

Your knowledge of US history is appallingly bad.

The US is NOT a Christian nation, so yes, that notion IS indeed backward, dangerous and "heretical" to anyone with just a smidgen of historic knowledge - although I would most likely just call it ignorant than heretical.
You also said earlier that you do indeed believe in separation of church and state... how can it then be a Christian nation if the two are separate?
You state that opposition voices towards those ideas are tantamount to persecution, while you have no problem labeling homosexuals as sinners and deviants and oppose their pursuit of happiness (marriage).
Any atheist movement out there aren't trying to suppress Christianity, it's just telling you to keep it to yourself and not try to influence legislature with it - but that idea apparently triggers the massive persecution complex a whole lot of Christians have.
If you can't see why that might cause some people to call you crazy, then I don't know what to tell you.

As for ceasing the name calling... you just called Dogbladewarrior for DogbladeGirl!?! Hypocrisy much?
Seriously, it seems like you're arguing from both a position of ignorance (e.g. about US history) and a total lack of self-reflection.

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GentleGiant, part of the value of religion stems from the fact that there are differences of opinion as well as debates.

Some of the people on these boards seem to want to paint all of a religion as being uniform in belief. I think religion would lose its value if such uniformity were to ever happen.

Couldn't one argue that the very fact that there ISN'T uniformity within a single religion is evidence that the theology is very weak. Or that "the message" isn't a clear as some claim that it is?

In other words, it's a quite fallible document, obviously written by men and not the divine inspired document it's claimed to be?

The point I was making is that I'm NOT the only Christian supporting homosexuality. There is a large number of Christians who approve of it and anyone who claims otherwise (for example, with that 'Darkwing, alone, against 8000 Greek scholars' kind of comment) just doesn't know anything about Christianity.

You also have to make the distinction, that some of those Christians still consider homosexuality a sin, but they hold the proposed message of love in higher regard and thus purport to love/forgive their sinning homosexual fellow brethren.

Which, in practicality, is probably the best outcome, but it's still denigrating to the homosexual part of the population.
Sure, there are some who "approve" of it (I'd say "don't consider it worthy of derision" rather than actually "approve" of it (as I see "approve" as "encouraging")). One of the questions from "us on the other side" earlier in the thread, has then been. Why aren't they leading the "battle" against their homophobic fellow Christians? Why aren't they a more visible minority on the barricades?