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Doesn't mean their can't be different sizes within the category of Colossal... :D

It actually does. If you made multiple "categories" of colossal, each with their own scaling size bonuses, that's just another way of making new size categories. The tarrasque is colossal, as is a monster the size of a planet. At least that's the official stance I've read.

I know they're twisted, evil, and "icky", but I love me some Worms that Walk. Kind of always wanted to play one...

-Kcinlive

Me too, so much. The Age of Worms AP started my love affair with the buggers and I'm so glad Paizo kept them around. As for playing one, they're just too freaking strong for a typical PC, but there is a lesser worm that walks in (I think) the Elder Evils 3.5 supplement from Wizards of the Coast. The problem is they don't actually give you the template - only a creature who has it. So you'd have to reverse engineer it...

I wonder what the handsome fello with the club is ???

Fomorian giant? I thought I read they'd be in here. He certainly has the fomorian mug.

My guess for Outer Dragons:

Force Dragon (Alignment Lawful)
Prismatic Dragon (Alignment Chaotic)

Wes said in the other thread that outer dragons are "Something you've never seen before," so prismatic/force dragons are out. There are a bunch of dragon breeds from the dragon article of Fortress of the Stone Giants that have never been touched on: abomination dragons, humour, mineral, sin, thaumaturgic, and virtue.

I'm really hoping we never see mineral dragons. I just can't get excited about silicon or pyrite dragons.

Bestiary IV mythic

Definitely, but the non-mythic monsters (along with several of the mythic) seem to be drawn from cinema. This is preliminary of course, as we don't know 95% of the monsters.

Bestiary II theme was Outer Planes
Bestiary III theme was cultural monsters
Bestiary IV theme is... movies? or maybe fiction in general? We're getting kaiju, gremlins, body snatchers, Lovecraftian horrors, and nosferatu. Yeah, I think this is the cinema Bestiary.

My Demon Lord guess: Yhidrothus. I'm getting a "things that have learnt to walk that ought to crawl" vibe...

I'm eager for the book to understand how the boons/obediences work?

I imagine they work the same as those presented in Lords of Chaos.

Until a sourcebook goes so far as to state "Known on other worlds as Pelor, Ra, and Sol, Sarenrae is a goddess of the sun" I'm going to assume the dieties of Golarion (which are radically reduced in number thanks to Rovagug) are an insular...

Well, in Distant Worlds there is a section called The Gods. It states that almost every world is familiar with both Asmodeus and Pharasma, because those deities are ancient and powerful. One can presume that equally old gods such as Desna - especially Desna now that I think about it - are likewise venerated on most worlds. Newer gods such as Iomedae, Cayden Cailean, and Norgorber are comparatively unknown outside of Golarion. So you're partially right here, but only in regards to young/weak gods.

I seem to remember reading that Desna's current humanoid form is just her latest incarnation. Maybe I read that on these boards? Dunno. Anyway, my hunch is in line with lordzack's - that Desna was originally some kind of enormous moth from outer space. Because hell yeah she was.

Also remember, the universe/Dark Tapestry is super big. While Lovecraftian elements certainly have their place, not everything from the void is related to his work. Desna is a prime example. She may be alien in the technical sense, but she's on humanity's side. Oh, and don't forget flumphs! The little guys have come to warn humanity of the nightmares lurking beyond the stars. It's just a shame they're too adorable for anyone to take them seriously. Sort of like Nibbler from Futurama.

At a minimum 6.

So far we know...

When dealing with something like Rovagug, I could see the answers to;

3) Is he an outer god?

...answerable with 'yes.'

Isn't it implied somewhere that Desna might be a former Lovecraftian being herself? She's ancient, extremely so. She may have come from somewhere else in Golarion's Material Plane. And she's linked to the stars and songs. What form did she take on and possess before she became her modern incarnation as a deity?

Okay, so here's the problem. Lovecraft's mythos is a fairly tangled web comprised of works by several authors over several decades, and it's debatable which authors and which works Pathfinder considers canon. We can draw a few conclusions though.

Pathfinder's Shub-Niggurath is identified as an Outer God - that is, a full-fledged deity, on par with Abadar, Asmodeus, and others. HP Lovecraft himself never described Shub-Niggurath in any real capacity - it was just a name drop. August Derleth later classified S-N as a Great Old One. However, in the Chaosium RPG, S-N is an Outer God. Thus, I think Pathfinder's take on the Cthulhu Mythos most closely resembles the Chaosium RPG. This is daunting, because Chaosium has written a ton of material over the decades, but at least it's a start.

With that said, Pathfinder's campaign setting is obviously not Chaosium's. Trying to shoehorn distinctly Pathfinder gods (Rovagug, Desna) into Lovecraftian roles is difficult, because those roles are already fairly ambiguous. What is an Outer God? According to the Great Old One section in the Inner Sea World Guide, "Mortals who worship these alien beings believe they shall one day come to Golarion and unmake the world." That fits the definition of Rovagug, but does not fit Desna. Old Cultists are also "...insane and very dangerous." Again - sounds like Rovagug, but not Desna. From this alone, I would conclude that Rovagug could be considered an Outer God (but not a Great Old One - he's too strong for that category), while Desna would not fit either category.

The Dark Tapestry article in Wake of the Watcher sheds further light on things. Here, Outer Gods and Great Old Ones are explicitly stated as "...gods of the Dark Tapestry" who "...exist in the Dark Tapestry or upon other worlds." Since Desna's definitely not a Great Old One or Outer God, and Rovagug is certainly not a Great Old One, I'll focus on the question of whether or not Rovagug is an Outer God.

Outer Gods "...may dwell in the deepest reaches of the Dark Tapestry, but they are free to come and go throughout the universe as they will, and the fact that they exist partially outside of reality means that constraints like time and space mean very little to them." Does that sound like Rovagug? Definitely not. You could argue that an Outer God could be imprisoned under the right circumstances, but consider that Rovagug has never been associated with the Dark Tapestry. And now that Rovagug is a confirmed Qlippoth, we know for a fact he did not originate in the Dark Tapestry.

Thus, while Rovagug, Desna, and the Qlippoth can all be said to have Lovecraftian elements, I think I can safely conclude that none of them are/were Great Old Ones or Outer Gods. Yes I know Dagon is a Qlippoth Lord, but that brings me back to a previous point: Pathfinder is not Chaosium. It has taken liberties with HPL's works, drawing inspiration aplenty, but the result is not a perfect copy. That's a good thing.

I agree with Evil Midnight Lurker - Outer Gods are certainly potent, but not overly so when stacked against beings like Desna, Abadar, and even Rovagug. I'm an HPL nut myself, and tend to put his stuff on a pedestal, so it's my knee-jerk reaction to say that Azatoth, Yog-Sothoth, S-N, and Nyarlthotep are the supreme beings. However, it's pretty clear that, in the Pathfinder campaign setting, this is not the case. They are very big fish certainly, but in an equally big ocean.

Thanks to Jason Bulmahn (Razmir's creator) kindly taking the time to answer some of my questions, I have gleaned the following:

-There are fewer than two dozen Visions of the Fifteenth Step, but quite a few more Masks.
-Razmir's military is largely composed of "press-ganged low-lifes," which suggests to me that the common foot soldier is not an official member of Razmir's church. The commanders, however, are.
-Razmiran's Faith Barges are "mini temples" that try to convert others. They aren't blatant pirates, but do have weapons onboard if they need to defend themselves.
-Razmir himself does have a palace in Thronestep, but may have sanctuaries elsewhere.

The cool part about that last point is that Jason suggests Razmir may not be known as The Living God in some of his sanctuaries, which gives rise to all kinds of possibilities. After all, since no one has seen Razmir's face (pure speculation on my part, but just go with it for a sec), he could really be almost anyone. Razmir may just be one of his alter egos. He could be member of the Decemvirate, a high-ranking scion of House Thrune, the guild master of the Silent Brotherhood (a massive Taldan thieves' guild [Razmir is noted as being of Taldan descent]), or what have you.

To me, that reads like the Wiki article may be reading more into it than is there.

Yeah, reading way too much into it. Razmir despises Kyonin because they won't take him seriously (not accepting his ambassadors, actively repelling his missionaries), but that doesn't bar elves from joining his church. There are elven and half-elven Razmiran priests.

On an unrelated note, I have an idea about the exact nature of Ramziran brainwashing, and both relate to the Forgotten Track mines. It's hinted in the description of the Forgotten Track that Razmir is intentionally trying to find something, and new tunnels are increasingly breaking into the Darklands. So my idea is that Razmir has made contact with a tribe of derros, as well as a group of brain oozes, and has made deals with each to assist in programming his followers at First Step. The derro use their weird surgeries and the memory-wiping cytillesh fungus to convert subjects, while the brain oozes utilize their various mind-control prowess to the same effect. And of course there are kytons for those particularly difficult cases.

We're talking of low value high morale troops that come cheaper by the dozen. Then, when they die, simply 'promote them' by turning them into undead, but masking their new nature with robes and masks, and send them out to fight again.

That's an awesome idea, definitely using that one. It also works well with my other plan - giving Razmir the spell temporary resurrection from Ultimate Magic (resurrects a creature for 1 day, than they die again). That way Razmir can "resurrect" one of his faithful in a very public manner, and after the poor sap re-dies, hits him with animate dead. Suddenly Bob the Acolyte gets much less talkative, but he's still an obedient priest. His family has begun to complain about his odor, but not too loudly.

Thank you all, where can i find more info on the subject? if there is any more than what James said above.

This thread may interest you. It's initially about the fate of true neutral souls, but then heads into atheist territory.

Also:

6: Does Razmir have inquisitors serving him?

He's most certainly a tragic figure, and the only non-evil BBEG to date. Also, now that he's Mecha-Xin, whatever was left of his humanity/sanity will probably vanish pretty quickly. In the same way that liches and vampires slowly but surely lose all traces of their mortal selves, I think Xin will embrace his clockworkiness and become a machine, mind body and soul.

I think you could definitely make a compelling post-campaign with him though, but as you said it would take a lot of work.

It worked for James Sutter and James Jacobs, so I figured I'd give it a shot. So right to business.

I'm currently not GMing and decided to flesh Razmiran out and hope to expand on the Arc of Immortality series at a later date. Thanks to all the tangential Razmiran data we have, I've been able to fill in a lot of the gaps, but there are some points I'm stuck on. Here are some of the big ones:

1: Approximately how many Visions of the Fifteenth Step serve Razmir? How about Masks?

2: What kind of military does Razmiran have? Are the soldiers primarily cultists, or just their leaders/commanders? Is it organized and disciplined, or more of a horde?

3: Razmir's faith barges... what's they're deal? Are they decked out like war ships, with a full retinue of sailors and warriors, onboard ballista/catapults, etc.? Or are they more along the lines of merchant vessels, without the obvious display of force? Also, are faith barges viewed by other nations as pirates?

4: Any Razmiran campaign would eventually have to involve the fortress of First Step. Do you have any thoughts about the place? Other than programing cultists, what else do you see going on at First Step?

5: Where does Razmir himself spend most of his time? Does he have a royal palace somewhere in the capital of Thronestep?

If this works, thanks! If not, I promise I'll stop making threads about Razmiran. For a week or two at least.

Grr, slight edit to my Razmir post. Should read:

"I've been rooting around on info about Razmiran, which I now know is Jason's creation. That said, I was wondering what your thoughts were on the following..."

I've been rooting around on info about Razmiran, which I now know is Eric's creation. That said, I was wondering what your thoughts were on the following...

1: Approximately how many Visions of the Fifteenth Step serve Razmir?

2: What kind of military does Razmiran have?

3: How's the slavery situation? Are slaves legal, or just unnofficial indentured servant-types?

4: Razmir's faith barges... what kind of ships are they? My guess is sailing ships (as per the Skull and Shackles Player's Guide) with maybe a few ballista/catapults, crewed by what are essentially pirates with masks.

5: Any Razmiran campaign would eventually have to involve the fortress of First Step. Do you have any thoughts about the place?

Thanks!

@Generic: Was the Arch-Duchy a River Kingdom? The only mention I've seen (besides Inner Sea World Guide) is Rule of Fear, which mentions that one of the dukes and heir to the nation, Darmid Clase, being imprisoned by the Odrantis for a period of time.

As for slaves, since I don't see Razmir abiding by the River Kingdoms' creed, slavery could be at his whim. I can see elven (and half-elven) slaves being common, as he declared elves to be heretics.

I don't know much about Melcat, but I would assume it was a fairly small River Kingdom. I say fairly small because, in the ISWG description of Razmiran, it notes that Razmir has expanded his nation five times at the expense of other River Kingdoms. Odd's are it was little more than a city-state.

Razmir considers elves heretics? Do you remember where you read that? It's odd, because old man Razmir has a fairly high ranked elf in his church (Iramine, who I figured out is a Mask of the Twelfth Step).

On an unrelated note, Razmir has "faith barges" that comb Lake Encarthan looking for handouts. Would these barges be straight up pirates? What kind of ships would they be?

Also, what do you think Razmir's iconic ivory mask is? A magic item, minor artifact, or just a pretty ornament with no special abilities? I'm thinking of making it a reskinned crown of conquest (from Ultimate Equipment) as well as an intelligent magic item.

You definitely could do that, and it would make a cool way to expand on the campaign. The problem is your PCs would already be nearly at 20th level. This, of course, would be a great opportunity to introduce mythic rules.

I will say though that, as written, my take on Neo-Xin is that he now despises fleshy life. The reason he has a clockwork army is because clockworks will never betray him, and thus are perfect. Living, breathing, thinking beings are flawed, and will all be eliminated in a perfect Xin-tastic world.

The only thing I've ever signed an online petition about was during the SOPA/PIPA protests. Most anything else I've seen since I've yet to care enough about to bother.

It's CISPA now. The horrors never cease.

And as for petitions... how much do they actually accomplish? The serious ones that is. I contact my Congressmen whenever something comes up that I'm really passionate about (such as the afforementioned CISPA [which Rob Portman claims is all about "security"]), and it's my understanding that they tend to notice when their constituents take the time to email them.

Regarding Melcat - it's pretty well established that kingdoms come and go in the River Kingdoms, and Melcat went over 50 years ago. Not many of its former rulers or expatriates would still be alive. One important question would be how long the kingdom existed prior to its Razmirification. If it was only a blip on the timeline, I doubt many people even still remember it, but if it had a more far-reaching provenance, I'm sure there are still those who would like to see it returned to its former state. Alas, time is not on their side.

I was thinking of making the former Duke of Melcat a graveknight. I might have him enslaved by Razmir, or working against him - a possible ally of the PCs.

Razmiran's an awesome country with a lot of information scattered among several Pathfinder books. Actually, between the Inner Sea World Guide, Inner Sea Magic, Paths of Prestige, Faction Guide, and the Arc of Immortality Adventure Modules, there's more info on Razmiran than a lot of other countries. Which makes it all the stranger that we have almost no info on the country itself, except for what is found in the Inner Sea World Guide.

I'm currently not GMing and decided to flesh Razmiran out and maybe expand on the Arc of Immortality series at a later date. Thanks to all the tangential Razmiran data we have, I've been able to fill in a lot of the gaps, but there are some points I'm stuck on. If anyone has thoughts on these (or any other Razmiran) topics, please let me know.

Also, Sorry if this post is a bit jumbled but I'm trying to get a lot of thoughts in writing at once.

-1: Approximately how many Visions of the Fifteenth Step serve Razmir? Right now there are only two canon Visions: Aion (mentioned in Faction guide) and Rastagar (mentioned in ISWG). This rank is the top of the church hierarchy, and according to the Faction Guide, equivalent to the highest rank in any other organization. Right now I tentatively have 13 Visions planned, as follows:

-2: How do you envision the fortress of First Step? It's an indoctrination center obviously, but that's sort of vague. I see it as a place where untested acolytes are put through a brutal program of mental and physical torture, brainwashing, etc., carried out by elite Razmirans. Right now I'm thinking kyton torturers (for the truly difficult future converts), enchanters, bards, and - hidden in the depths of First Step's dungeons - a circle of brain oozes who have allied themselves with the cult. The kyton's leader is Viractuth, a Termagant (statted in Inner Sea Bestiary).

Other than programing cultists, what else do you see going on at First Step? I'm going with a laboratory for alchemists to develop and refine drugs and poisons, an extensive armory and prison, and the Halls of Debauchery, where Razmir and his elite can frolick. Probably quite a bit more as well, but what?

-3: Where does Razmir himself spend most of his time? Does he have a royal palace somewhere in the capital of Thronestep?

Right now I'm thinking that he divides his time between the fortress of First Step, a royal palace in his country's capital city, and a hidden tower someplace far away from Razmiran.

-4: What kind of military does Razmiran have? Are the soldiers primarily cultists, or just their leaders/commanders? Is it organized and disciplined, or more of a horde?

-5: How's the slavery situation? With Razmiran abutting the River Kingdoms (and debatably a River Kingdom itself), how much slavery could the rulers get away with?

The "fine Chelist cigar" is smoked by Akron Erix from the Second Darkness adventure Children of the Void, page 31. The three smoking pipes are treasure found during the Carrion Crown adventure Wake of the Watcher, page 36.

Believe it or not, this has been asked before.

Also, here are some past items that have appeared in PF products:
-Fine Chelish cigar (5 gp)
-A smoking pip of meerschaum carved in the shape of a whaling vessel (60 gp)
-A smoking pipe of scrimshaw carved into an unidentifiable mass of tentacles (60 gp)
-A smoking pipe carved from soapstone in the form of a skum (60 gp)

I have a few issues with Juju. The juju sight revelation is just loads of absolutely terrible. Also, the craft juju fetish revelation suffers do to there only being 5 official juju items to choose from. Maybe if you gained bonuses when, for example, using juju fetish items as well as spell-completion/trigger items that utilize the bonus spells granted by the juju oracle, it might be up to snuff then. Maybe.

There are no juju revelations that require you to be 7th-level to choose. This sort of handicaps the mystery, because the 7th-level powers tend to be a nice boost.

There are no direct damage or defensive juju revelations. Even the lore mystery, which focuses so much on divination effects, gives us brain drain (offense) and sidestep secret (defense). I don't consider path of the snake to be defensive, because while it allows you to go incorporeal, you can't do anything else during that time. It's more of a stealth/utility power.

I was really dissappointed with juju. It felt rushed, not terribly well thought out, and underpowered. I could go over the specific reasons why I feel this way, but that's the short of it. I think an oracle worshiper of juju would be much better served by taking the bones or ancestor mystery.

Hey James. I think it was you that developed Razmiran. Am I wrong about that? If so, disregard the following questions.

1: Approximately how many Visions of the Fifteenth step do you see serving Razmir? Right now there are only two canon Visions: Aion (mentioned in Faction guide) and Rastagar (mentioned in ISWG).

2: What rank does Iramine, the BBEG from City of Golden Death, hold? It doesn't say anywhere in any of the adventures, and she isn't noted as having a specific colored mask. However, her art shows her holding a gold mask I think, which would make here a Vision. However, she's only 8th-level so I thought Mask of the Twelfth step would make more sense.

3: How do you envision the fortress of First Step? It's an indoctrination center obviously, but that's sort of vague.

4: Where does Razmir himself spend most of his time? Does he have a royal palace somewhere in the capital of Thronestep?

5: What kind of military does Razmiran have? Are the soldiers primarily cultists, or just their leaders/commanders? Is it organized and disciplined, or more of a horde?

Thanks!

If it isn't a coincidence, then that sounds like a definite technological base - possibly Borg-like cyborgs or more full-out robotic? How about "roboticised" neh-thalggu, where the only organic components are the stolen brains?

I definitely get the robotic vibe as well, but robotic doesn't necessarily mean inorganic. Okay yes it does, but it doesn't have to. To bring the discussion full circle, HR Giger's brilliant Alien design specifically evokes a feel of technology (and rape, but that's neither here nor there) despite being made entirely of flesh/chitin/whatever. There's something deeply unsettling about organic structures functioning in decidedly inorganic ways, which is part of what makes the whole genre of body horror so disturbingly fascinating. Ed Gein only killed 2 people, but he went on to inspire some of horror's greatest icons - Norman Bates, Hannibal Lecter, and Leatherface, among others. Why? Two words: people furniture.

Anyone can make a door out of metal or wood, but if that same door is made out of living flesh and bone, you've just gone from zero to crazy real fast.

It says in Distant Worlds that the Dominion are sustained by the knowledge of their masters. That's a pretty vague statement, but maybe it means physcially sustained? If so, maybe they are robotic like the Necrons from Warhammer 40K. I guess they could be undead, but I'm guessing no.

Thanks to the juicy tidbits JJ has sprinkled in the thread, I'm feelng Bellona on the illithid comparison. Space aboleths too for that matter. Oh, and on another thread I recall JJ liking Mikaze's idea that neh-thalggu are related to the Dominion. So perhaps the Dominion are less a singular race and more a general grouping, like demon or devil.

I know that they're the protected IP of another company, but it would be really tempting in a homebrew to include mindflayers/illithids in the Dominion of the Black. Malignant, organised, and committed to expansion - that sounds about right.

Just call 'em squid people. No one owns squid people. No one!

The relationship between the Great Old Ones and the Dominion of the Black has been pretty vague and hazy though—it's not something we have really said a LOT about yet and have been deliberately coy on several matters.

The quote I was really going from was from The Final Wish, regarding occupants of the Dark Tapestry: "...beings with malignant, incomprehensible intelligences rule the aether, singing their songs of madness and commanding a mysterious consortium of emissaries known as the Dominion of the Black." Of course, it isn't stated what those "malignant intelligences" are - they are never outright stated as being Great Old Ones. I just assumed they were. Problem with assuming...

Those visions and philosophies very often compete and clash. Perhaps the Dominion understands the nature of the Outer Gods and Great Old Ones very well -- and they oppose them for their own reasons.

Eh, it's pretty well established that the Dominion of the Black serve the Outer Gods/Great Old Ones as heralds and emissaries. This is specifically revealed in the...

Vespergaunt entry in Inner Sea Bestiary
Dark Tapestry chapter in Distant Worlds
Gods of the Dark Tapestry sidebar in The Final Wish

*Edit
Though this may change, who knows.

Snip

That sounds pretty cool, granted. And while I have no idea what the truth is behind Zon-Kuthon, I can quote the devs. It would seem that Z-K is not a Dark Tapestry dweller.

Just to head that off at the proverbial pass...

I've been doing a LOT of thinking about the Dominion of the Black lately, and I've got pretty solid in my head what they are and what they're about.

And that doesn't fit in well at all with Zon-Kuthon.

It's not the Lovecraft mythos. It's not the Dominion of the Black. It's something else.

Generic Villain wrote:

Also, there's a separate implication in the devourer article in Undead Revisited. Not so much an implication as a stated fact actually. In short, devourers are beings that have been warped in a place beyond the known multiverse, a place that "...is not merely the darkness and strange voids between distant stars on the Material Plane, but something fundamentally different—a beyond for the Great Beyond."

Hey, somebody caught that one! :)

It's also deliberately vague enough that you can read many things into it, and what exactly it's saying. At least one of the names dropped therein has also been referenced elsewhere, also itself an intentional mystery.

FWIW, I wouldn't read anything with respect to Zon-Kuthon there, at least that wasn't the intention on my part, but as with all intentionally vague mythology, it may be clarified by anyone else in future sources, James or otherwise :)

In my opinion, the best way to present Lovecraftian elements in the context of Pathfinder is to never allow the players to approach them head-on, but rather through endless layers of proxies which have their own interpretations, goals, and endgames, and of which the Dominion of the Black may very well be one.

I was thinking about this. Originally I was going to respond with "If you prefer this style of game, Call of Cthulhu may be a better choice for you than Pathfinder." And that could very well still be the case. However, a big part of me agrees with you that Lovecraftian elements are at their most effective when maintained as a looming but never overt threat. Vague hints and subtle references to unspeakable things that keep the PCs ever on their toes, but never the catharthis of facing the horror head-on and killing it with swords and magic.

Alas, the other part of me will insist on revealing as much of the Forbidden as possible. Peel back every layer, shine light on every enigma, leave no mystery un-demystified. (To be honest, this part of me is kind of annoying. He needs to chill).

And then there's the ultimate dissapointment. That no matter how cool the devs make it, I will always be let down, because nothing - nothing at all - can compare to the fevered imaginings of my own twisted mind. Take for example Aucturn, which finally had its coming out party in Distant Worlds. I have mad respect for James Sutter, and he did as much justice to the Golarion solar system as anyone could, but when I got to the Aucturn chapter I had a resounding meh moment. Not because Aucturn isn't a cool, flavorful, insane-in-a-good-way place, but because nothing could compare to the menacing vagueness that originally enshrouded it.

In summation: I can't wait to see what awesome stuff Paizo decides to do with the Dominion of the Black. But I also know it will be bitter sweet.

With all of this Lovecraft abounding in the dungeon, then, it's very interesting that the Master of the Saffron House is a Kyton.

Zon-Kuthon may not have anything to do with the Dominion of the Black/Dark Tapestry, but that certainly doesn't mean individual kytons can't. Pathfinder Kytons are, after all, heavily inspired by Clive Barker's Hellbound Heart, which itself has Lovecraftian overtones. Trying to tease apart and isolate elements of Lovecraft can be daunting, if not impossible. Body horror, aliens, madness, forbidden knowledge, Things That Should Not Be - there are too many broad concepts to not have a tremendous amount of overlap.

I was just noting that the fan theory that Zon-Kuthon was posessed by a Dark Tapestry entity is not the case.

Or are they trying to make us ready to welcome them?

I love the Dark Tapestry/Dominion of the Black, like, a whole bunch. That said, I hope Numeria has nothing to do with it/them. The universe is a big place after all, with plenty of room for aliens who aren't HPL abominations. We'll be getting Dominion of the Black Love soon enough from a couple PF modules, after all.

Nex (both the dude and the country) were conceptualized by Eric Mona. I've read that, if/when Nex is further detailed, it will be Mr. Mona that does it. Alas, he apparently has a lot on his plate, so it may be awhile before we get any Nex goodies.

Which is a shame, because other than Numeria, I think Nex is the most flavorful region that's just begging for light to be shed on it.

Silver Mount may not have had any living aliens aboard. It could very well have been piloted and crewed entirely by robots. However, assuming there were flesh-and-blood aliens, would they have survived the crash? If so, what goals would they have? Golarion is a primitive place compared to wherever the Silver Mountians call home, so would they simply seek to escape? To learn from their new neighbors? To keep a hands-off approach, so as to avoid interfering with the natural course of things?

Or perhaps they would send out their metallic soldiers as proxies. Have these robots and androids integrate into the landscape as much as possible, ever-so-slowly manipulating the crude locals into doing their bidding. Technic League? Sure, prop those know-nothings up: dangle just enough techno-magic in front of their noses to to ensure their loyalty (knowing or not). Wait until the people are practically asking to be enslaved. Then when the time is right, oblige them.

We'll eventually get that Numerian AP (please). I reckon it'll answer all sorts of questions. But yeah, I had the gillman/aboleth thing in mind when I posted that. The only problem with that theory is the dearth of info on Numeria, robots, androids, etc.

I can see that. For my part, I'm of the opinion that if something is literally good incarnate, they wouldn't reward a creature with eternal life if that was a punishment.

Tell that to Tabris. Poor guy worked his butt off for Heaven, only to be banished when he decided to air Heaven's dirty little secrets. Now he's all alone in his personal demiplane.

I'm largely joking, but I do actually have a point: the cruelties of Heaven may be hidden, but they are no less awful for those who endure them.

As for immortality viewed from a mortal vs. immortal perspective, I have some thoughts on that too. The worst case scenario is existing forever as you were in life, stagnant and unchanging, as limited in eternity as in mortality. What I prefer to believe (in regards to Pathfinder, among other things), is that life is simply phase 1. A brief, messy affair where the soul matures just enough to qualify for it's next incarnation in the afterlife. The soul would begin with all its baggage intact. It would no doubt spend a few decades, or even centuries, indulging in every possibly form of hedonism. Eventually though, even the wildest physical delights would lose their appeal, and that is when the soul is ready for yet another metamorphosis.

This next phase would be one of contemplation, wherein delights of the mind replace those of the flesh. Connections to the life that once was fall away. The soul comes to shed every semblance of self. Then... well, who knows. Oblivion perhaps - call it Nirvana if you want a more positive spin. Perhaps sublimation, a return of the soul to the Godhead that spawned it. Or maybe there is yet another transcendence to yet higher planes of existence, the likes of which our primitive minds can't grasp.

That'd be just peachy.

Technically, unless I misread the rules, Crypt Breaker combines with Trap Breaker. The only issue I see is that both archetypes trade out something different for Trapfinding. How would that work out? Or am I misremembering the rules for archetypes and you can not actually combine those two?

I don't have this book yet. That said, a character can take two archetypes that grant the same ability (trapfinding in this case). The alchemist in question would gain trapfinding as usual, though he would be losing two other abilities in the process. What he can't do, is take two archetypes that require him to sacrifice the same ability.

Crude example: a fighter could take two archetypes that both grant him trapfinding, and he would gain trapfinding once. He cannot, however, take two archetypes that both sacrifice his bravery ability. He can only give up bravery once. Er, is that what you mean?

And we're back to Beast Wars :-)

So now you gotta ask, are the aliens Autobots or Decepticons? Considering what I know about Numerian robots, I'm thinking they don't exactly come in peace...

Well, what if whatever made the android doesn't look human itself? Why would, for example, the Elder Things make an android that looked human?

Perhaps you answered your own question. The androids' creators must be human because androids appear human. Or androids appear human because humans are the dominant species of Golarion. Maybe whatever made the androids designed them to appear as "normal" as possible so they blend in more effectively.

Where do androids come from? Numerian super technology right? The same super technology that gave us the Gearsmen. Gearsmen appear humanoid as well, though it's hinted that humanoid was not their original form; that there is something "off" about them, as if their humanoid appearance was quickly and inefficiently fored on them. Could androids not share the same origin?

Possible scenario: the craft that will one day be called Silver Mountain crashes into Numeria. Whatever alien life is aboard does a quick scan of the planet, learns that humans are the primary intelligent species, and thus morphs the robots/Gearsmen into a roughly humanoid appearance. Realizing that this mimicry is absolutely not fooling anyone, the aliens take some time to forge a more delicate approximation of humanity. Thus, androids.

snip

All perfectly valid points. I suppose I've read too many immortality-related stories (The Last Answer, the Jaunt, I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream) to think of endless existence as anything but the worst punishment possible.

On a brighter note, I actually see the eternity of neutral souls as being the most peaceful, contemplative, and pleasant of all afterlife options in the PF campaign setting. The dearly departed have "...the time and ability to pursue all they enjoyed or were never able to partake of during their mortal existence." That's not boring in the least - it's a calm paradise. There are no hordes of demons to fight, no souls to steal, no vast multiplanar conspiracies to engage in. It's not exactly thrilling, but that's perhaps the best part.