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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting Subscriber. 1,368 posts. 9 reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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If 4th Edition never happened and Dungeon Magazine had continued printing under Paizo, were you planning on doing an Adventure Path focusing on spell weavers? There were some awesome hints about a spell weaver meta-plot in the first two APs that, alas, will go forever unrealized.

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-1: How homogenous is the modern aboleth civilization? Especially compared to how homogenous it was pre-Earthfall. Is it like a world-spanning empire? Multiple kingdoms with differing goals? Entirely isolated pockets of aboleth society working largely independently?

-2: You've mentioned in this thread that there are no rogue veiled masters. There has been, however, at least one semi-rogue normal aboleth featured in the final chapter of Second Darkness. Ndtiktia is mentioned as being "...feared and loathed even by its brethren within the Caltherium for its unpredictable moods." So the question: how common are semi-rogue aboleth outliers? The rebels who, while still lawful evil, just don't jive with their kin? (This is sort of a continuation of the last question about homogeneity).

-3: When an aboleth allies with a non-aboleth, is it always as a manipulator or would-be puppet master? In other words, would an aboleth ever willfully submit to a superior being without attempting to subvert his/her/its desires? As a lieutenant, advisor, etc.?

(As an aside, I know we'll be learning more about aboleths with the release of Occult Mysteries, so some or all of these questions may already be answered to some extend in a month.)

-4: If you were going to stat up a sorcerer descended somehow from aboleths, which bloodline would you go with - aberrant or aquatic?

-5: What would your average aboleth think about such a sorcerer? Especially if s/he was particularly powerful, maybe even mythic?

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Thanks Zherog, that was a solid breakdown.

And yes Louis, I have indeed seen the climax. I read through most of the entire thing after getting the PDF. Great stuff, and eerily in sync with a completely unrelated pet project I was working on - a conversion of the Forgotten Realms organization known as the...

Kraken Society.

I was thinking of fleshing out the city/military camp of you-know-who for additional high-level adventures.

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How large an army would you say...


Harthagoa the Krakenfiend has? If he were to muster his entire force? Right now I'm thinking a ballpark of like 2,000-3,000 bodies. Mostly sahuagin, some skum and scrags, and a smattering of "others."

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-Do sahuagin have a racial deity? I know some of them worship Kelizandri, but she is NE and I was wondering if they had a LE demigod or something.

-Are sahuagin meant to be amphibious? So far they've shown up a handful of times (off the top of my head: in Skull and Shackles, Legacy of Fire, and General Achimar fromthe NPC Guide). Each time, they are described as frequently operating outside of water. Yet according to their stat block... no amphibiousness. What gives?

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PathfinderFan64 wrote:
I love how it is for sale here before the kickstarter supporters receive it. It's even cheaper here with the 15% discount for subscribing to the adventure paths. I am skipping the current ks and will just wait and buy it here before the ks supporters.

If you're talking about the 15% discount from the Pathfinder Adventure Paths, you only get that on Paizo products. Legendary Games products are not Paizo products.

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Louis Agresta wrote:
Generic Villain, I'm going to answer that well

Actually, on second thought don't worry about it, I just went ahead and placed my order. I figure I'm technically an adult so if I want to spend $40, by god I'm going to do it.

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Louis Agresta wrote:
Generic Villain, I'm going to answer that well -- as soon as my 101 Flu Fever breaks. There are actually 2 overarching plots and a build-your-own-adventure path model for implementing them. More later. I promise. Must go do unmentionables, he said sort of mentioning them...

Awesome, thanks! In the meantime, enjoy the wonders of the human immune system...

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Hi, I recently re-subscribed to the Campaign Setting line. I really could have sworn I started my subscription with the "Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea Gods Hardcover" product, but according to My Subscriptions page, it has me as starting at last month's "Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Wrath of the Righteous Poster Map Folio" product.

Could you please remove the "Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Wrath of the Righteous Poster Map Folio" order and begin me at the "Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea Gods Hardcover"? Thank you.

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I'm a GM who hasn't followed Razor Coast at all and is only as familiar with it as what's posted on product descriptions. I'm seriously thinking about purchasing based on what I've read so far, but am not quite ready to pull the trigger. Because as much as I've read, I really have no idea what the overarching plot is.

Can anyone here spoil the plot for me as much as is possible/convenient? Namely the elements of cults and underwater conspiracies I keep seeing, on a account of being a big HP Lovecraft fan. Thanks if anyone can help me out.

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LazarX wrote:

Orcus the Name is not property of WOTC, but the specific expression of Orcus and his trademark wand most definitely is. It's the same thing with Tiamat.

Yeah, that's wrong about Orcus. Seriously, read my post that's right above yours.

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Geez guys, do you want all of Golarion's mysteries to be revealed in this one book?


Yeah, me too.

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TritonOne wrote:

Didn't Demogorgon get some mention in Lords of Chaos in which it said something like Demogorgon has yet to turn much attention towards Golarion, whose people should be very grateful.

Nope, I think you're thinking of Orcus. So far the name Demogorgon has appeared now and then, but never anything more than a name and a title ("Maws of Madness"). WotC doesn't own the name Demogorgon, but again, Paizo cannot use the Demogorgon that we all know so well, because two-headed-baboon-dude is protected intellectual property. Paizo could make a completely separate Demon Lord called Demogorgon, but the name would be its only commonality.

Orcus would have been in the same category. That is, the name Orcus is owned by no one, but "Orcus the bloated, undead-ruling, rod-wielding Demon Lord" would have originally belonged to WotC. Just like Demogorgon. The difference is that WotC agreed to make their Orcus open content. They did this on behalf of Necromancer Games, who then published Orcus (along with hundreds of other now-OGL monsters) in the Tome of Horrors. It's really hard to stress just how different Pathfinder's Bestiaries would look today if it weren't for this event.

It's worth noting that this intellectual property generosity occurred in the early days of D&D 3rd-edition, back before Hasbro bought WotC. I won't speculate on whether post-Hasbro WotC would have been equally generous, but I will trail off here knowingly...

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Orcus isn't anyone's intellectual property - he's officially Open Content, thanks to Necromancer Games' Tome of Horrors. Orcus, Jubilex (though not Juiblex), and a bunch of other Demon Lords/Archdevils in that book are all free for public use. As are demodands, mites, froghemoths, and countless other beasties that, prior to the Tome of Horrors and their sequels, were very much off-limits. We have Necromancer Games to thank for making hundreds and hundreds of iconic D&D monsters part of the OGL.

Some Demon Lords, such as Demogorgon and Graz'zt, were not allowed to be printed in the Tome of Horrors, and thus remained WotC's intellectual property. And while the name Demogorgon is technically not owned by anyone, his incarnation as a two-headed baboon lizard thing with split personalities absolutely is. If Paizo ever made their own version of Demogorgon, s/he would have to be a completely new character.

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Dragon78 wrote:
I am especially interested about the gnome's exodus from the first world.

Maybe it has something to do with why some fey also speak Aklo? Another mystery of the PF setting...

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At least one of them has a weird thing going on with a harpy...

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He's fighting thanatopic titans for sure. Speculation: maybe even a mythic god-like thanatopic titan leader?

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Pain Taster? Yeesh, I never thought I'd see that PrC updated. Hopefully it gets 10 levels this time. Kind of surprised about the occult oracle mystery, considering it just came out like 6-8 months ago. Pretty fast turn-around.

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LazarX wrote:
Visions of badly redone knockoffs of Ed Greenwood novels.

Ed Greenwood made an absolutely incredible campaign with his Forgotten Realms, but my god was some his writing bad. I couldn't finish Elminster in Hell. I just could not finish that book.

As for the subject at hand, I think the closest thing in PF is the Arcane Blast feat from Advanced Player's Guide. If I recall, that was an emulation of a power that the 3rd-edition D&D archmage could choose, which was, if I recall, also very similar to how Spellfire (and the similar ability useable by some Chosen of Mystra) functioned.

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zergtitan wrote:

Actually he may be referring to an upcoming module considering that his time estimate places it in September/October which would be in the middle of Iron Gods.

Or referring to nothing at all, as in "We have products planned for the next six months, and the eyeless kraken feature in none of them, so at the very least you have six months to wait."

But I can hope.

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James Jacobs wrote:
donato wrote:
How far are we from learning more about the 13 eyeless kraken?
More than 6 months away.

As in, after Iron Gods? As in, the much-awaited (by me at least) aboleth AP is nigh?! As in, learning about the veiled masters in Occult Mysteries wasn't just a one-off fluke, but in fact a preface to far greater things just a bit down the road, something I scarcely dared hope, but did nonetheless?

I guess there isn't any question in there that you can answer, so I've violated the tenants of this highly useful thread, and I'm sorry for that, but...


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-Preface: I was reading through an old 2nd-ed Forgotten Realms book called "Sea of Fallen Stars." I thought it was a really well thought-out supplement and gave an awesome look at the politics of various underwater races in the titular Sea. I realize that, with the exception of the Skull and Shackles AP and its tie-in products, the ocean hasn't played a key role in any Pathfinder products to date. That said...

-Actual Question: How extensive are undersea politics in Golarion? We've seen a little about the locathah nation in Tian Xia, hints of aboleth cities in the deep ocean, a gutaki metropolis in the Obari ocean, and other snippets. But nothing in the way of a big picture. Are there whole nations of aquatic elves, cecaelia, tritons, etc., all of them conducting trade, war, etc.? Or are the oceans mostly wilderness, with pockets of civilization? Or something in between those extremes?

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LazarX wrote:

Like I said as well as the OP, you're talking about INDIVIDUAL EXAMPLES. He's looking for a species of good aligned undead, and that's not happening in the Pathfinder material.

Actually the OP only posted once - it's otherwise been you shooting down everyone else for stepping outside the boundaries of discussion that you have established, while telling them as rudely as possible how useless their advice is.

Maybe take your refereeing elsewhere?

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FuriousPhil wrote:
There is a NPC in 'The Godsmouth Ossuary' module that is undead and non-evil. So there is some canon justification to say that in Golarion, there are intelligent undead who are not evil. It's still an exception to the rule.

Oh yeah, forgot about her. So far the common thread for non-evil undead has been "didn't actually want to be undead." Now granted, I'm sure that 99.5% of the poor saps who get eaten by ghouls or sucked dry by vampires aren't thrilled about their impending transformation, but still it's a start.

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137ben wrote:

Huh? Do you have a source for that? I am not aware of anything in RAW that specifies anything evil about the process for creating intelligent undead.

Source: every undead-creating spell has the Evil descriptor.

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Technically yes, but as LazarX said, it's super rare. The only in-game examples I know of off the top of my head are ghosts. One ghost is sticking around because she needs to keep other ghosts from doing terrible things, and another was unjustly murdered and is, if I recall, actively being forced to remain on the Material Plane. I think I read somewhere (maybe from JJ?) that ghosts are the most likely to be of non-evil alignment.

Even if a vampire, ghoul, or wight were a LG paladin in life, the overwhelming urge to eat blood/flesh/life energy, combined with the whole "I'm a monster now" thing would quickly strip them of their former morality.

On a side note, there is a non-evil lich way back in the The Great Beyond (book of planes). However, I also recall reading something from the author (Todd Stewart) saying that he statted up the lich before knowing about the "all undead are evil in Golarion" rule. Or something like that. This was years ago.

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Tirisfal wrote:

Mississippi got jealous with all of this talk around Arizona and Kansas and wanted to remind everyone that THEY'RE the flagship intolerant state in THESE PARTS.

It's desperation. Blind, flailing, frothing, impotent desperation. They know they've lost - they are a fatalistic bunch. They will go down swinging, though.

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I don't know how much you'd be willing to say about this but... what drove Cyth-V'sug, Dagon, Yhidrothus, Zevgabizeb, and Jubilex to renounce their qlippoth status and join forces with the demons?

Were these beings of Demon Lord power (that is, challenge rating 26+) when they were still qlippoths? Which of course is a stealth way of trying to pry more information out of you about the nature of true Qlippoth Lords (as opposed to Yamasoth and the Nascent Qlippoth Lords noted in Beyond the Doomsday Door).

Are the qlippoth-turned-Demon-Lords viewed by their former kin as traitors?

I have a feeling most of these questions fall under the "we can't say yet" category, but I figured I'd give it a shot. Thanks as always.

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It's back, Mississippi style.

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MagusJanus wrote:

The Supreme Court has gone out of its way to avoid saying gay marriage is constitutional, and by all sides is actively trying to avoid the issue. Considering they are supposed to rule impartially, the fact they're actively trying to avoid having to rule at all speaks volumes. Backing SCOTUS into a corner on this by trying to get them to decide within the decade may get a decision we don't want to have.

You may be right. Fortunately, that leaves the Supremes an easy out: allow federal judges to continue this tide of rulings. Many states aren't appealing those decisions, and those that do will go to circuit courts where the lower court's ruling will likely stand. Next, when those rulings are appealed, the Supreme Court can just refuse to hear the case.



Lower court's ruling stands, and no one has to listen to Antonin "The Pope" Scalia explain why denying rights is the proper thing to do while his sidekick, Clarence "Silent But Deadly" Thomas, nods in the background.

That's essentially what they did with California's Prop 8.

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BigNorseWolf wrote:

That might itself might be the most harm the republican far right is doing for the case for equal rights. As long as the republicans are the virulently anti homosexuality party the democrats don't NEED to do anything pro homosexuality to keep the votes: even zero support is better than the republican opposition.

The (more) cynical part of me wonders if that's not the plan...

Cynical? It's brilliant. Why bother putting yourself out there and potentially alienating independent voters by being heavily pro-LGBT, when you can just let appointed judges do the work for you?

I really, very much hope the gay marriage debate is still ongoing until at least November, 2016. I want to hear the Republican presidential nominee declare his opposition for gay marriage during the primaries. I want to see the loudest, most rabid faction of that party alienate everyone else.

With DOMA castrated and federal recognition granted regardless of state laws, we've won. Now that we're just cleaning up the remainder, there's no harm in milking this for all it's worth. Fire up the base, get the young vote out, and land the proper butts in Congressional seats.

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It's important to remember that everyone has an opinion, and in the opinions of some, featuring homosexual characters in entertainment is offensive and wrong. It's more important to remember that, despite what we so often hear, it is possible for one's opinion to be wrong.

For a very long time (thousands of years, sadly...), it was popular medical opinion in the west that excess blood was the cause of many illnesses. That opinion was wrong, and resulted in countless deaths because surprise!, your body really does need blood. Like, all of it actually.

Likewise, believing that gay characters are bad is also a wrong opinion. People are free to maintain it, just as those doctors kept on bleeding their patients dry, but it's categorically incorrect.

Not all opinions are equal, and not all opinions are worthy of respect.

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thejeff wrote:

More states will follow and we'll see a Supreme Court decision within a decade.

A decade? I would have guessed that as well this time last year, but the way thing's are going, we'll being seeing a SCOTUS decision in a year or two, tops. That's assuming they even bother taking such a case after it makes it to the circuit court, as it apparently will in Texas.

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Odraude wrote:
Yeah I'll be honest, I have little faith in either party to be on the side of LGBT issues. Or on the side of their voters for that matter. But I have a cynical, negative view on politicians, so I generally think that neither party has the average citizen's interests in mind.

I think things were swinging in favor of gays in this country no matter what the politicians did. I also think that Obama - and Biden before him (god bless that wacky dude) - coming out in favor of gay marriage was a MASSIVE boost.

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MagusJanus wrote:

Unfortunately, with improving things, sometimes you're left with two choices: Throw thousands under the bus now or throw millions under the bus later. Which is why it is that engineering social change really should be left to sociopaths; they're the only ones who can make the necessary sacrifices and not suffer mental degradation because of what they've done. Unfortunately, sociopaths are not known for being agents of good change... so we have to not only potentially sacrifice thousands of people for the short term, but also sacrifice the sanity of good people in the process.

I like the cut of your gib. I'm not a sociopath myself - I've been tested : ) - but I'm about as Machiavellian as they come. Sometimes playing the long game can be painful, but it's all about the win.

Anyway, this is all just post-game rhetoric at this point. The bill has been vetoed, and similar legislation has been abandoned/shelved in a dozen other states. Yet here's the ominous part: Arizona's bill was a clear push back against the rising tide of pro-gay legislation and judicial decisions. It was also a brutal and sweeping bludgeon that didn't even attempt to hide its true intent. It failed. Yay. Woo. But what's next?

The conservatives in this country are demanding something, anything to stop the bleeding as they see it, and the next bill may not be so blatant. It may be a scalpel instead of a hammer. It may be couched enough in lingo and jargon that it flies under the radar, or so specific that it won't cause the outcry of Arizona's abomination. Like, say, the matter in Utah wherein the AG is making adoption more difficult for gay couples. There's no bill to veto - just a government official catering to the lowest common denominator with the power of his office.

The Republican party needs social conservatives. It must cow-tow to them - at least until primary's are over.

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Judy Bauer wrote:

I get what you mean—but pragmatically, wanting it to pass for a downstream political goal is throwing thousands of people under the bus for political points. It's our lives you're gambling with! Please keep that in mind before you regret too much that queer folks (and people perceived as queer) kept their right to, e.g., buy groceries, or call the loss of that right "excellent."

I'm absolutely okay with throwing a few thousand people under the buss if it means maintaining the Senate in 2014-2016. The good that Obama could do in his last 2 years with Senate backing far outweighs the minimal harm that would befall the people of Arizona for the few months before that law was struck down as unconstitutional. A missed opportunity to raise utter hell and dominate the headlines.

So I don't seem hypocritical (just ruthless), I'm openly gay and would welcome this law in my state.

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Cori Marie wrote:
And more good breaking news! Governor Brewer made the right call and vetoed the Religious Freedom bill!

I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand, it was yet another in the long line of smack-downs handed to the buffoons. Far more importantly, the huge outcry has helped to shelve/postpone/kill similar bills that had, until recently, been squirming their way through twelve other state Houses.

However. If that awful bill had been signed into law, it would have made such an excellent wedge issue for the 2014 midterms. That injustice could have ignited the base while simultaneously winning over independents. Those are two things the Democrats will desperately need next November.

Emotionally, I'm glad what's-her-face vetoed it. Pragmatically, not so much.

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I have some questions about worms, demons, and demon worms. Some are a bit complicated, so I'll bold the actual question.

-1: Are all seugathi bound by the will of their neothelid parent? To put it another way, are any seugathi able to go "rogue" and ignore the directives they are born with?

-2: Assuming the answer to question 1 is "no," that means that Kortash Khain and his kingdom of Nemret Noktoria must have an alliance with at least 1 neothelid. 7% of Nemret Noktoria's 17,650 citizens are seugathi, and Khain has at least one (and likely many more) seugathi agents working for him directly. Are there any hints you're willing to share about the nature of this alliance?

-3: Are all neothelids worshipers of the Great Old Ones/Outer Gods? I ask specifically because of information presented in the second Shattered Star Adventure, "Curse of the Lady's Light," in which the PCs can stumble upon a fiendish seugathi. The background of that seugathi is that it originated in the Abyss - specifically Sekatar Seraktis. This tells me that at least one neothelid lives there. Assuming this is the case, would an Abyssal neothelid still worship the Old Gods? Also, was this an easter egg related to the neothelids living in Hollow Mountain's depths? (Alaznist had an alliance with Yamasoth, ruler of Sekatar Seraktis, so maybe he imported some of the neothelids).

-4: Do any neothelids worship/serve Yhidrothus, Demon Lord of worms?


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I know how much you totally hate talking about Demon Lords (wink), but I have a question: a few demon lords have overlapping areas of concern. Specifically:

Cyth-V'sug: disease, fungus, parasites
Deskari: chasms, infestation, locusts
Mazmezz: bindings, driders, vermin
Yhidothrus: age, time, worms

Parasites, infestations, vermin, and worms are all somewhat overlapping. For example, Deskari makes use of worms (including a worm that walks [Xanthir] and some giant rot grubs), both infestations and vermin could be comprised of any of the other three categories, worms and vermin can be parasites, etc. etc.

Could these areas of concern be defined a little more clearly (aside from worms, which is pretty specific)? Or do these four Demon Lords just sort of share one big pool of creepy crawlies?


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Fitzwalrus wrote:

I can't find the strip number right now, but in one of the early "crayon" backstory comics when the first Rift was found part of the Snarl came through and impaled and killed the significant other of one of the group of wizards that built the Gates.

I forgot about that one, thanks. But was that meant to be an actual flashback, as it happened, or just the recounting of a legend?

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Drejk wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

Those are soldiers from a different nation than Tarquin's. Tarquin is general for the Empire of Blood, and the other two nations are Sweat and Tears. I forget which one Laurin works for, but I'm assuming those are its soldiers.

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As far as I can recall, this is the first time anything actually came out of a rift, and it only did so when Laurin telepathically probed it. That violent response could have just been some sort of feedback, as opposed to proof that the Snarl exists. That's kind of anticlimactic though, so probably not.

Because Rich Burlew is cruel, I doubt we'll get the resolution to this anytime soon. The next panel will probably be back on the airship. But it'd be cool if, further down the line, Laurin and Co. show up all zombified/enslaved by whatever blasted them.

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137ben wrote:

Roy never destroyed the rift, he destroyed the gate, which kept the rift sealed.

Right, I forgot how the rules work. It's been a long time since the Sapphire Gate got crazy paladin'd.

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DJEternalDarkness wrote:

Huh, so ** spoiler omitted **

Very interesting...

No, that doesn't make sense because everyone saw an ocean when they looked through the portal. Laurin just happened to think she could exploit said ocean.

So I guess when Roy chopped up the shell containing the Rift, the Rift was not in fact destroyed? What was the deal with the whole ziggurat exploding then? A defense mechanism perhaps?

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AlgaeNymph wrote:
Does Beyond the Campaign give anything for maxed-out PCs to do?

Yes and no. There are things PCs can do like found a demiplane or nation, repopulate and fix lost Sarkoris, or become a god, but there's little detail - just general suggestions. For example, it notes some of the "threats" that still exist in the Worldwound region, but I think the most dangerous one has a challenge rating of 23. A pebble in the shoe of the PCs by the time they're finished with this AP.

I think that aspect of "Continuing the Campaign" was a concession for people who wished to continue with their demigod PCs. In other words, Paizo had to put something there. Really though, if you read between the lines, the conclusion is a simple one: 20th-level PCs with 10 mythic tiers have no more challenges left to face. They've reached the top of the mountain, and until (if) Paizo ever decides to release rules for even higher levels of play, there's no way to climb any higher.

Sure the GM can throw together uber-high-level challenges and adventures, but there's no way for the PCs to grow, so... what's the point? Time to retire and roll up a new batch of 1st-level dorks who faint at the mere mention of the word "demon."

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Response to EML's response to GV:
My first thought was that, because it was called out in the text as a "gift from Deskari," the S&M quasit is just a fringe benefit for being buddy-buddy with a demigod. Like how Jatembe (from Mythic Realms) has his "gift of the teachers" ability that gives him perma-barkskin, shapechange, and mindblank. But then in Jatembe's case, that perk also gave him a +1 CR.

Yeah, I think the little fellow probably counts as a mythic path ability. However I still think Areelu has longevity.

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Gancanagh wrote:
Yes but only 1 week earlier, this isn't 1 week earlier...

Haven't you noticed that's changed? I think it started back at the last Paizocon when it took two weeks to get everyone's orders filled. Some customers were complaining (rightfully) about not being able to access their PDFs yet, despite even non-subscribers being able to purchase them. I assume Paizo is now giving themselves two weeks in case this comes up again. A grace period.

Regarding the adventure...


-Areelu is missing two mythic path abilities. As written she only has 6 when she should have 8. If I had to guess, I'd say she has the "longevity" path ability. She is noted as being over a century old, and this isn't a result of being a half-fiend - native outsiders age just like everyone else. Also, maybe having her crazy powerful familiar counts as a mythic ability.
-Congrats to the author for designing a 2 hit dice monster with a challenge rating of 12 and over 100 hit points. That... was kinda funny.

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Alleran wrote:

Presumably the first is Deskari's and the second belongs to Areelu? The name 'Riftcarver' sounds like it's implying that it may have been involved with how she opened the Worldwound in the first place.

No, Riftcarver is Deskari's scythe. I'd guess Noriznigath is the Storm King's weapon.

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So you're an intellect devourer living in Illvarandin. Not one of the rulers, but a reasonably well off and respected little brain dude (maybe with a few levels of rogue or sorcerer). What are some of the coolest/most important rooms in your house? Some of your favorite amenities?

(Feel free to not answer this in the first person. I'm sick and the codeine cough syrup is... effecting me).

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He does not appear in any way in Serpent's Skull.

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