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Machine Soldier

Gauss's page

Goblin Squad Member. Pathfinder Society Member. 7,686 posts (7,694 including aliases). No reviews. 1 list. No wishlists. 1 Pathfinder Society character. 1 alias.

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Actually, the devs have stated that extra-dimensional spaces such as pits, bags of holding, etc. are not extraplanar (which is what I think you are thinking of).

James Jacobs on the topic and here too.

On a more basic level, you would be giving such a spell far more power than is it's due if you make it extraplanar. You cannot use teleportation magic (D-door, teleport, etc) across planar boundaries.

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Create Pit does not open a doorway into another dimension. It is an extradimensional space.

Extradimensional is an extension of the existing dimension. Not an entirely different place.

Golems are not immune to all magic other than that listed.
Clay Golem example:

Bestiary p159 wrote:
Immunity to Magic (Ex) A clay golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.

Ie: golems are only immune to spells and spell-like abiltiies that allow spell resistance.

Create Pit does not allow spell resistance.
Golems are not immune to Create Pit. Create Pit works just fine against golems.

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You have failed to show how the rules are broken.

You have shown how homebrew rules break the rules. What you are doing (breaking things down to sell them by the pound) is homebrew.

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Robert Jenkins 953 wrote:
Gauss wrote:
Robert Jenkins 953 wrote:
Gauss wrote:

Pricing on many items is not intended to be 'by the pound'. It is intended to be 'how much do we think this ability should cost'.

It is a game mechanic power metric, not an economic value.

Admantine armor has a specific game effect that should cost a specific amount.
Items without specific game effects are typically are charged by the pound. (Not always because game designers are a chaotic lot.)

There is really no rules question here, this appears to be more of a discussion regarding how the games "economy" was designed. I am flagging this as wrong forum.

Say what you will but this does have to do with the pricing rules for crafting and special materials, something they have admitted is flawed for mithral and trying to fix. I am bringing up how inconsistent both adamantine and mithral are together and seperately.

This is not a rules question, it is a rules discussion. As in, changing the rules, not a question to be resolved. The proper forum for this is the Pathfinder RPG General Discussion.

Rules Forum description wrote:
This forum is for questions and answers about the rules of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game. House rules, variants and conversions should be posted in the appropriate Community Content forum.
Pathfinder RPG General Discussion description wrote:
This forum is for general comments about the Pathfinder RPG and discussing the system with other gamers.
There is no question here, this is a discussion.
Once more I disagree, hes it has become a conversation, and yes I have decided to fix this problem for myself until Paizo decides to fix the problem or give a response. The original question and topic involve rules for special materials that are inconsistant. I prefer playing by the rules written than making my own up, that way the game does not get watered down with house rules. I have identified something that I view as an issue and I want feedback,...

There is no problem. The rules regarding pricing work fine.

Your entire post has come off as a 'I don't like that the pricing rules work this way'. Not as a 'could you help clear up something?' question.

You knew how they worked, you just didn't like it. This is not a rules question, it is a rules suggestion/discussion (starting with your first post) and as such belongs in a different forum.

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Pricing on many items is not intended to be 'by the pound'. It is intended to be 'how much do we think this ability should cost'.

It is a game mechanic power metric, not an economic value.

Admantine armor has a specific game effect that should cost a specific amount.
Items without specific game effects are typically are charged by the pound. (Not always because game designers are a chaotic lot.)

There is really no rules question here, this appears to be more of a discussion regarding how the games "economy" was designed. I am flagging this as wrong forum.

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Diego, again, CONTEXT. I explained what he was probably confusing it with.

tchrman35, fine, I take 10, you roll "take 10" and it is still a 10. :P

If I am going to roll (for some bizarre reason) I will make sure I have the spell "Identify" handy to make sure that the item isn't cursed.

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You only provoke when you begin casting.

Here is the rule:

CRB p187 wrote:
You only provoke attacks of opportunity when you begin casting a spell, even though you might continue casting for at least 1 full round. While casting a spell, you don’t threaten any squares around you.

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Billbo_Baggington, yes, your confusion is because you confuse "Pathfinder Adventure Path" with "Pathfinder RPG". The two are not the same thing.

Pathfinder Adventure Paths are either D&D 3.5 or Pathfinder RPG depending on the rules used in the module. CotCT was D&D 3.5. CotCT was not Pathfinder RPG.

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Since this is not actually a rules question I am flagging it for wrong forum.

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There is no rules ambiguity here, you must pick a square.

If you don't like it, house rule it. But, if you do house rule it don't forget to also add in things like 'my arrow missed the target's touch AC, did it hit the guy behind him?' house rules. (The rules are not a simulation of reality, they have nothing to do with reality and thus are silly. If you want to simulate these types of things, that is what house rules are for.) :)

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Which is why many people houserule it. But this is the rules forum and those are the rules. Rules don't have to be fair (and frequently are not fair). :)

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vhok, as others have stated, the "sorcerer" bit in the metamagic rods is simply a reminder, not an inclusive or exclusive statement.

Metamagic Rods use the rules for Metamagic feats except where otherwise stated. I don't understand why you think they don't.

Ultimate Equipment p187 wrote:

Metamagic rods hold the essence of a metamagic feat, allowing the user to apply metamagic effects to spells (but not spell-like abilities) as they are cast. This does not change the spell slot of the altered spell. All the rods described here are use-activated (but casting spells in a threatened area still draws an attack of opportunity). A caster may only use one metamagic rod on any given spell, but it is permissible to combine a rod with metamagic feats possessed by the rod’s wielder. In this case, only the feats possessed by the wielder adjust the spell slot of the spell being cast.

Possession of a metamagic rod does not confer the associated feat on the owner, only the ability to use the given feat a specified number of times per day. A sorcerer still must take a full-round action when using a metamagic rod, just as if using a metamagic feat he possesses (except for quicken metamagic rods, which can be used as a swift action).

It states that it is the essence of a metamagic feat.

It states that it does not change the spell slot (an exception).
It states how it is used (use-activated).
It states how many rods you may use at once (clarification).
It states it can be combined with metamagic feats (a clarification).
It states that you do not actually possess the feat (some items actually grant the feat, this indicates you don't actually have it, the rod gives it to you for X number of uses a day).
It states that sorcerers still must cast spells as full-round actions (this is a reminder).

There is NOTHING that excludes other spontaneous spell-casters from being forced to cast as a full-round action like normal. The fact that they only reminded you about sorcerers is just a lack of foresight in predicting how overly rules-lawyerish people can get.

Are you using a Metamagic Rod? Yes
Does the Metamagic Rod provide a Metamagic Feat? Yes
Do spontaneous spellcasters have to use a full-round action when casting a metamagic spell? Yes

The reminder in the Metamagic Rod text is really pointless beyond being a reminder.

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Sure, I already did but here you go again:

CRB p458 wrote:
Spell Completion: This is the activation method for scrolls.

Now, Spell Completion is defined as being for Scrolls. If it isn't a scroll it doesn't use Spell Completion unless it has a rule that states it does.

Are there other items that specify Spell Completion? Yes, examples are Riffle Scrolls and Spell Tattoos

Inner Sea Magic p16 Spell Tattoo wrote:
A spell tattoo is essentially a wearable scroll inscribed on flesh instead of on parchment or vellum. These tattoos appear as colorful and intricate patterns rather than magical writing. The tattoo is a silent, spell completion item that only the bearer can activate. It vanishes when activated. A spell tattoo must be visible to the bearer and must be touched as part of its activation. These magical tattoos are not normally placed on the head, neck, or back as a result, since most creatures would require mirrors to activate them. A spell tattoo’s aura and caster level varies as per the scroll it emulates. A spell tattoo has a market price four times as much as an equivalent scroll.

Now on to spell trigger:

CRB p458 wrote:
Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it’s even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell. This is the case even for a character who can’t actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin. The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

So, nothing about which items are spell trigger. But if we look elsewhere we find it.

CRB p491 wrote:
Activation: Staves use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a staff is usually a standard action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity.
CRB p496 wrote:
Activation: Wands use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity. (If the spell being cast has a longer casting time than 1 action, however, it takes that long to cast the spell from a wand.) To activate a wand, a character must hold it in hand (or whatever passes for a hand, for nonhumanoid creatures) and point it in the general direction of the target or area. A wand may be used while grappling or while swallowed whole.

Now, lets look at Wondrous Items (the category the Page of Spell Knowledge is in).

CRB p496 Wondrous Items wrote:
Activation: Usually use-activated or command word, but details vary from item to item.

So usually NOT Spell Trigger. Lets see if we can find some examples of Wondrous Items that spell out that they are Spell Trigger.

CRB p515 Golem Manual wrote:
The spells included in a golem manual require a spell trigger activation and can be activated only to assist in the construction of a golem.
CRB p531 Prayer Beads wrote:
The beads of blessing, smiting, and wind walking function as spell trigger items; the beads of karma and summons can be activated by any character capable of casting divine spells. The owner need not hold or wear the strand of prayer beads in any specific location, as long as he carries it somewhere on his person.

So, there are specific classes of items which are all Spell Completion or all Spell Trigger items. Then there are some exceptions which are spelled out.

This is not spelled out, so without rules stating it is, we default to the rules that govern that type of item. In this case, a Wondrous Item which is usually (without text to the contrary) use-activated or command word activated.

CRB p458 wrote:

Use Activated: This type of item simply has to be used in order to activate it. A character has to drink a potion, swing a sword, interpose a shield to deflect a blow in combat, look through a lens, sprinkle dust, wear a ring, or don a hat. Use activation is generally straightforward and self-explanatory.

Many use-activated items are objects that a character wears. Continually functioning items are practically always items that one wears. A few must simply be in the character’s possession (meaning on his person). However, some items made for wearing must still be activated. Although this activation sometimes requires a command word (see above), usually it means mentally willing the activation to happen. The description of an item states whether a command word is needed in such a case.

Unless stated otherwise, activating a use-activated magic item is either a standard action or not an action at all and does not provoke attacks of opportunity, unless the use involves performing an action that provokes an attack of opportunity in itself. If the use of the item takes time before a magical effect occurs, then use activation is a standard action. If the item’s activation is subsumed in its use and takes no extra time use, activation is not an action at all.

Use activation doesn’t mean that if you use an item, you automatically know what it can do. You must know (or at least guess) what the item can do and then use the item in order to activate it, unless the benefit of the item comes automatically, such as from drinking a potion or swinging a sword.

Now, the only problem with it being Use/Command activated is that no action is specified in the magic item so the GM has to determine if an action is required.

My interpretation of the rules is that it falls under the either the continuous benefit or the 'activation is subsumed in its use' clauses. Either way it works without any extra action on the user's part.

Summary: Page of Spell Knowledge is a Wondrous Item, it does not have any text telling you the activation method is different than any other Wondrous Item. Examples of Wondrous Items with different activation methods from other Wondrous Items are provided, this is not one of them. So default to Wondrous Item (ie: Use Activated or Command Word) rules.

I really think this is a case of people not being able to believe that you can create an object with a spell in it without having that spell available. While odd, those are the rules.

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Yes, you are running it wrong, but your players are also wrong. It is worse for your players than they realize.

Draw a line from ONE of the shooter's corners to EACH corner of the target.
If any of those 4 lines crosses an obstacle or creature, then the target has cover.
If none of those 4 lines crosses an obstacle or creature, then the target does not have cover.

What this means is, an archer can fire around a corner at someone and maintain cover while the target gains no benefit of cover.

As an added bonus, it also means that an archer can be around the corner and shoot a medium creature 5' away without provoking an AoO.

Here is a picture illustrating this. The target on the left does not have cover from the shooter. The target on the right has cover from the shooter (red lines).

CRB p195 Cover rules wrote:
To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target’s square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC).

So in the case of your kobolds, they continue to have cover (+4 AC) even while shooting. The PCs would not have cover unless they have an obstacle granting them cover (which is probably not the same object granting the kobolds cover).

Basically, this is the equivalent of shooting a gun around a corner, you don't have to expose yourself much.

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I think you are assigning 'type' based on 'racial hitdice', this is incorrect. There is no link between the number of racial hitdice (zero or more) and the creature type.
There is a link between the size of the racial hitdice (if any) and the creature type.
(Note: some subtypes, such as Giant, state that the creature will have racial hitdice but does not define the minimum number of dice.)

Put another way: ALL creatures have a type (and many have a subtype).
Type determines the size of racial hitdice (if any) but does not determine the presence or absence of racial hitdice.

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Crimeo wrote:
[blatantly obvious you are an ooze type now, that's what becoming something means.]

^This is the problem right here. You call it "blatantly obvious" while nobody else here is doing so. In fact, we are calling it obvious that you do NOT gain the type because nowhere does it state that you do.

You are going beyond the rules to apply what you think is obvious when nobody else is. This is the source of your problem.

Additionally, you keep trying to use standard english to define game concepts and rules. You really should stop doing this. It is a significant part of the problem you are having. The Devs simply don't write the rules to conform to standard english definitions.

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Not once have you shown a rule that states when you are polymorphed into a creature you gain that creature's type. Not once.

What you have shown, repeatedly, is text that can be interpreted to say that you turn into a creature. But that is NOT THE SAME as text that states you gain the creature type.

Show a rule, in black and white, that says anything remotely close to 'you gain the creature's type'.

You cannot call supposition, assumptions, and interpretations to be "RAW".

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You are allowed specific slots. Check the slot the magic item specifically takes up.

If you are referencing Gauntlets as a magic weapon they take a weapon slot, not the hands slot and thus you can wear gloves and magic weapon gauntlets together.

Some magic gauntlets are not magic weapons and take the hands slot. Example: Gauntlet of Rust.

Summary: you can wear magic weapon gauntlets with any handwear that uses the hand slots but you cannot wear magic "hands slot" gauntlets with other hand slot magic items.

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FAQ wrote:

Metamagic: At what spell level does the spell count for concentration DCs, magus spell recall, or a pearl of power?

The spell counts as the level of the spell slot necessary to cast it.

For example, an empowered burning hands uses a 3rd-level spell slot, counts as a 3rd-level spell for making concentration checks, counts as a 3rd-level spell for a magus's spell recall or a pearl of power.

In general, use the (normal, lower) spell level or the (higher) spell slot level, whichever is more of a disadvantage for the caster. The advantages of the metamagic feat are spelled out in the Benefits section of the feat, and the increased spell slot level is a disadvantage.

Heighten Spell is really the only metamagic feat that makes using a higher-level spell slot an advantage instead of a disadvantage.

The bolded section of the FAQ disagrees with you Crimeo. Zero level level spells placed in a higher level slot are expended because that is the most disadvantageous option.

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Back in 3.5 your worn outfit did not count towards weight, this was dropped in Pathfinder (could be for rule simplicity or it could be because it was not in the rules of the SRD that Pathfinder was derived from).

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Gustavo Iglesias, it may absolutely do some favor or service for you, at the level of it's abilities (int 1-2 for normal animals).

Yes, you give a mouse a big wheel of cheese, offers it more if he goes int and tells you what is inside. He tells you of the various kinds of food he likes and that there are 'big creatures'. He does not understand more than that. It is like asking a 3 year old for information.

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Crimeo, I think the key element you are missing is that you are ALWAYS forcing an animal into doing things for you when you are the one asking it to do something. There is nothing voluntary about it.

You tell it to go feed itself, that is something it would do on its own...but on its own timetable. You are telling it to do it NOW. That is why handle animal is required regardless of language abilities.

Tell a 3 year old to do something. If the 3 year old is not ready to do it you have to convince the child to do it. It doesn't matter if the child likes you or not, it doesn't matter if it understands you or not.

Handle Animal covers ALL circumstances of getting the animal to do something on your timetable. Even if you had speak with animals you need Handle Animal.

Int 2 animal: Handle Animal is required
Int 2 animal with a language: Handle Animal is required
Int 3 animal: Handle Animal is required
Int 3 animal with a language: Handle Animal is required

The Blog states that handle animal is still required, you choose to parse this and ignore elements of it because you don't like it. Fine, but that is what it says and no matter how you protest it it will continue to say it.

Can you ask an animal who is friendly to you to do something? Sure, but itll do it on it's own time in its own way IF it bothers to do it at all. Like any 3 year old, the results are doubtful, might as well shake a magic 8ball to determine if itll follow through.

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No, Dimensional Slide is not Dimension Door.

Tell your GM that there are many forms of teleportation effects, Dimensional Slide is one of them. Of those forms of teleportation effects Dimension Door is pretty unique in that it limits what you can do after you use it.

If it does not reference Dimension Door then there is no penalty associated with Dimension Door.

Here is an example of an ability that references Dimension Door:

Advanced Players Guide p147 wrote:
Shift (Su): At 1st level, you can teleport to a nearby space as a swift action as if using dimension door. This movement does not provoke an attack of opportunity. You must be able to see the space that you are moving into. You cannot take other creatures with you when you use this ability (except for familiars). You can move 5 feet for every two wizard levels you possess (minimum 5 feet). You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.

Point out the ability to him and then ask why it is missing from Dimensional Slide if it functions like Dimension Door.

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Crimeo, that is NOT the point of the blog. That was one small aspect of it. Have you even read all the discussion afterwards? The discussion where the Devs made extra clarifications?

The point of the blog was to cover multiple aspects of an animal with an intelligence that is higher than 2. Some of those aspects are:

1) Can an animal have an int of 3? Yes, the rule in the Bestiary regarding animals having a maximum of 2 is 'to start' and does not include buffs later. This was a clarification.

2) Does the animal learn a language? Yes, but this should take time.

3) Can the animal speak a language? No, it does not have the proper physical equipment to speak a language.

4) Do you still need Handle Animal to get an animal to perform tasks? Yes, it does not matter how intelligent an animal is, as long as it is still an animal Handle Animal is required. There is no language anywhere in that blog that states that just because an animal has a language it negates the need for Handle Animal.

In fact, it was discussed in the thread and the end result was, no, having a language does not change the need for Handle Animal. Some people did not like this and are house ruling it, that is their prerogative.

Now, we know you disagree with it, but this is what the Devs wrote. Take it or leave it, house rule it as you like. But this is the Devs FAQ/Blog and it clearly states that you have to continue using Handle Animal with your overly intelligent animals.

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The descriptions are fluff, not rules text. Follow rules text first and then use fluff for guidance if the rules text is not clear.

There are many examples of fluff contradicting rules text.

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Yes, you must still use Handle Animal

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TarkXT wrote:
knightnday wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Pathfinder Elves are aliens. Traveling from world to world through Stargates.

Elves see magic as natural a thing as the salt in the sea. To be in touch with magic, is to be attuned with Nature.

One could even play off that to explain why they are not more in touch with Golarion -- they are aliens and they are not more in touch with Nature on Golarion because she recognizes them as such, so they cannot form as close a bond with the planet.

So the fact that they manipulate nature for their homes and use doesn't make them in tune.

It makes them viruses.

Elves confirmed to be disease.

Elves cause cancer!

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A quick search has turned up that there are many threads on this topic. Most of them seem to say to calculate it in the way that is most advantageous to the defender (which would be energy resistance first, then the other two).

Meanwhile, a 3.5 FAQ states to do the energy resistance first.

Perhaps it is time for a PF FAQ on the topic.

Edit: Not a Dev but James Jacobs says Energy Resistance is last and also here.

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I think the answer is in the Resist Energy spell where it states:

CRB p334 wrote:
The subject gains resist energy 10 against the energy type chosen, meaning that each time the creature is subjected to such damage (whether from a natural or magical source), that damage is reduced by 10 points before being applied to the creature’s hit points.

Application to the creatures hit points is the last thing to happen so Energy Resistance (or at least that supplied by the spell Resist Energy) would be the last thing to happen.

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One of the things I noticed in your options is that you are rolling extra dice. You don't roll extra dice for energy damage. You multiply the total.

With that said, we get:
Total damage * 1/2 (save) * 1.5 (vulnerability). Now, it doesn't matter which order those two are applied in. They result in the same number.

A) 50 * 0.5 * 1.5 = 37.5
B) 50 * 1.5 * 0.5 = 37.5

Where it does matter is where you apply energy resistance.

A) 50 * 0.5 * 1.5 - 10 = 27.5 (27)
B) 50 * 0.5 - 10 * 1.5 = 22.5 (22)
C) 50 - 10 * 0.5 * 1.5 = 30

Clearly, the energy resistance has to be put in the proper place. I *think* I remember a Dev once saying it is last, I am trying to find that reference.

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DiceBagChick wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Next time if you don't want people to "jump to conclusions" don't say "How do I mess with this" and more "How do I come up with an alternate version of this" and give all the info at once instead of trickling it out a little at a time.

Guess that's my bad, i didnt figure a few people for being jerkish to me for something that's fairly common in gaming (GMs messing with wish to some extent), so i felt the need to constantly clarify things that were said or I didnt think needed to be said.

My thanks to those who did give reasonable alternatives though.

DiceBagChick, your question was fine as written.

People should not expect that all the information has been handed out.

You asked a reasonable question and instead of answering the question as it was asked some people posted responses that were not in line with the question and decided to place labels based on incomplete information.

Rather than accepting that different people have different gaming styles some people like to jump to the idea that if you do X then you must be a bad GM without understanding that the group dynamics may be different than what they would normally experience.

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If the Wish was reasonable, then yes, it should happen without being messed with. This kind of wish is not reasonable. The parameters of what should be replicated without problem are in the Wish spell's description. This is clearly beyond that and thus, should be messed with.

Of course, different people will have different ideas of what is reasonable and what the response should be.

The GM could give the player an arcana or spellcraft check to realize that that kind wish will not work as intended.

Alternately, the GM could discuss it with the player as to the expectations of what a reasonable Wish is before the Wish is made and if the player decided to make an unreasonable wish (knowing that there could be consequences) that is on the player.

Finally, messing with an unreasonable or complicated Wish is a classic in D&D gaming. It has been happening by GMs to Players for decades. The player should be expecting this.

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alexd1976, your question is misleading and incomplete. (Also, I was editing when you quoted me, I was rephrasing my statement.)

Yes, you can modify an initiative result when it is rolled using all applicable modifiers.
No, you cannot modify an initiative result 'someday later' because the roll is done. I know of no abilities that allow you to modify an initiative result in a later turn.
Yes, you can modify your place in the initiative order using abilities such as Delay or Ready. This still does not modify your rolled initiative result, it tosses it out completely.

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Wow, this thread is still going?

For a modifier to affect a die roll it must be going at the time the die is rolled unless the ability granting the modifier states it can be applied after the roll.

Initiative is rolled only once, during the beginning of combat. Apply all modifiers and move on.

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BigNorseWolf, I agree with you, it is a particular ability. I also agree with you, it is specific. However, it does not provide a specific exception to movement that does not provoke. ANY movement that does not provoke.

Lune has already shown an ability that clearly states that movement that does not normally provoke provokes, so clearly the Devs can write such a thing into the rules.

That statement is missing from this ability, you, and others, are trying to insert it.

This has nothing to do with intent of the rules. This is entirely, what is written. And based on what is written there is no exception provided that allows you to make an AoO for movement that does not have an AoO.

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Rory, Paizo has created abilities and feats that do nothing or do not work as intended because of either poor wording or due to a poor understanding of the rules by the author.
One such example is the pre-errata Prone Shooter feat where it allowed you to shoot a crossbow while prone. Something already allowed by the rules WITHOUT a feat.

Lune, game logic states that if a rule is going to override another rule it must state that clearly. Underfoot Assault does not state that. Example of what it could say: "...but if the foe attempts to move to a position where the mouser is no longer in its space, the movement provokes an attack of opportunity from the mouser, even if moving would normally not provoke an attack of opportunity." (Bold section is the added override.)
Such a statement would deal with any number of rules that avoid movement related AoOs.

So either
A) We have a feat that does not work correctly because the author did not understand that tiny creatures still threaten their own squares.


B) We have a feat that does not work correctly because the author did not provide an exception to the existing rules.

Either way, it needs an errata or FAQ in order to work correctly. Until that point, it is a GM call and you should expect table variance.

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Not really Rory, this would not be the first case of an ability giving you the ability to do something you can already do (example: pre-errata Prone Shooter).

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The quoted rules state that Eidolons are treated as summoned creatures and then provides a number of exceptions (none of those exceptions relate to AMF).

The rules for AMF state that summoned creatures go poof.

Ergo, Eidolons go poof in an AMF.

If you want to state that Eidolons are instantaneous you need to provide text that states they are. However, there is no text that states this and the non-instantaneous nature of the ability (poof when you go to sleep) is against you.

Instantaneous effects do not go poof when you fall unconscious. Once an instantaneous effect is created there is no magic leftover to go poof.
The fact that Eidolons go poof because you fell unconscious clearly indicates a non-instantaneous effect.

Summary: Eidolons are summoned, summoned creatures go poof in an AMF. There is no proof or even hint that Eidolons are in any way instantaneous conjurations.

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Diego Rossi wrote:
Gauss wrote:
Diego, do you have an example of a specific ability that imposes an initiative penalty that can only be used after combat begins?

One has already been cited several times in this thread:

PRD wrote:

Unprepared Combatant

School enchantment (compulsion) [emotion, mind-affecting]; Level bard 1, sorcerer/wizard 1, witch 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one creature
Duration 1 minute/level
Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance yes

The target takes a –4 penalty on initiative checks and Reflex saves.

It require a saving throw, so there is no question that it is an attack. To make an attack you must enter initiative.

If we apply your interpretation of the rules, the only way for this spell to work is to enter combat, cast it, then disengage completely to the point that subsequent encounters are a new event, Only at that point you would benefit from it.

- * -

Here is another interesting example, an initiative bonus that disappear after the surprise round:

PRD wrote:

Sixth Sense (Ex): At 3rd level, the superstitious barbarian gains a +1 bonus on initiative and a +1 insight bonus to AC during surprise rounds. This bonus increases by +1 for every three levels after 3rd. This ability replaces trap sense.

So the bonus to initiative and AC last for the surprise round only.

What happen when it end?

You have a very skewed idea of initiative and combat.

First, I asked for something that can only be cast during combat. There is nothing preventing you from casting that outside of combat or from having it penalize you in subsequent combats.

Second, it could be argued that "during surprise rounds" applies to the AC bonus, not the initiative bonus.
However, for the sake of argument lets assume that it applies to both. That would mean that if there is not a surprise round you do not get the bonus to initiative.
(Note: The way it is worded, to me, indicates that the initiative bonus applies all the time while it is the AC bonus that only applies during surprise rounds but I can see interpretations going either way.)

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Actually kyrt-ryder, a readied action going off DOES change your place in initiative to right before the character who's action triggered it.

CRB p203 wrote:
Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.

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I think I understand your problem. Are you new to 3.x? Started with Pathfinder? You seem to believe that every word is carefully chosen to have rules applicability.

Guess what? This is a very very messed up system as far as language is concerned. Some of the Devs have even stated it.

It was built back in 3.0 upon the bones of 2nd edition, rebuilt in 3.5, rebuilt again in Pathfinder. There is so many language artifacts in this game that it often doesn't have any sort of internal consistency if you adhere to the letter of the rules like you are trying to.

Back to the rules, yes, concentration only applies if something bad happens to you.

But the thing you are missing is that Pathfinder specifically changed concentration from being a catchall skill that could be used for 'anything that needed concentration' to 'casting or maintaining a spell, spell-like ability, or certain magic items such as spell-completion'. They specifically changed it from a skill that affected anything that might have anything even remotely to do with concentrating to something that only applies to casting and maintaining spells or spell like things.

So we ask:
Is this a case of casting a spell? No
Is this a case of maintaining a spell? No
Is this a spell-like ability? No
Is this a magic item requiring concentration? No
Is there any reference anywhere in the spell that states it is subject to the concentration rules other than the incidental inclusion of the word concentrate? No

Since the answer is all no, this is either a case of a "rule" (your position) with no rules to govern it OR "language" (my position) that does not have any rules to govern it (because it is not rule specific).

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Call Lightning has no requirement to maintain the spell, you cannot lose it.

CRB p252 Call Lightning wrote:
Duration 1 min./level

No concentration in the duration so it does not require "concentration to maintain the spell".

CRB p216 Duration types wrote:

Concentration: The spell lasts as long as you concentrate on it. Concentrating to maintain a spell is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Anything that could break your concentration when casting a spell can also break your concentration while you’re maintaining one, causing the spell to end. See concentration on page 206.

You can’t cast a spell while concentrating on another one. Some spells last for a short time after you cease concentrating.

Since Call Lightning does not have a duration of "concentration" the Concentration rule (quoted above) does not apply.

Summary: Calling a bolt cannot be disrupted or lost.

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You can download the changes here.

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Aaron "Lawful G" Beal,

Thank you for seeing things from my point of view. I understand that such a disclaimer would have to be carefully phrased.

After some thinking, I believe that the disclaimer probably doesn't need the 'user error' statement so long as it contains the 'not a substitute for the rulebooks' and the 'not a Paizo product' statements.

With those two statements it should be much easier to show people their user errors because the regularly occurring situation seems to be that when there is a user error then it almost always leads to the 'not a substitute for the rulebook' argument which then regularly leads to the 'not a Paizo product' argument.

Without the last two arguments it should be a relatively simple matter to ask them to check for user error or even to show them the user error.

You mentioned that you have already done something similar at conventions.

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Hmm, I am NOT blaming the tool. I have gone out of the way to NOT blame the tool. Even 3 of 4 points made by Nefreet do not blame the tool.

What I am asking for is the company to make it crystal clear to the users of the tool that that the tool is subject to user error, not a substitute for the rules, and not in any way a Paizo product.

Somehow, some way, these things have become prevalent enough where I have had repeated arguments with multiple users.

One more time: all I want is a statement from Hero Lab stating, in black and white, these things. One I can point to whenever an argument about a rule pops up and people try to point to Hero Lab as a rules source.

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Nefreet and I on the same page..I think that was one of the signs of the apocalypse. :)

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Aaron "Lawful G" Beal wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

1) Rules atrophy

HeroLab is a crutch. Why bother to learn how your character works when the program does it for you? I have watched over the last few years as once great rules gurus have devolved into "because HeroLab says so". This isn't anecdotal forum experience, these are real people I game with. The example I often use is the 12th level Bull Rush specialist who kept applying a miscellaneous -4 penalty to his CMB. When I looked it over I realized HeroLab was applying his Power Attack penalty. Not something that'd be happening if he just went off his character sheet.

Forgive me, but this seems sorta elitist and dismissive, it reminds me of people in Call of Duty who are like "Git gud n00b". You say it's a crutch, I say it is a convienance which makes the game more accessible to newcomers and veterans alike. With pathfinder a system with so many rules and their interactions, it can be quite intimidating, and anything we can do to make it less so is too the good. As for veteran gamers relying on it, I see that as a testament to the quality of our program and how often it is correct. Of course there will always be areas where we have a bug, but I'm proud to say more often than not, we're right.

Also, as an untyped penalty to attacks power attack it would apply to CMB rolls in any round where you used it. It sounds like the person you were talking too was leaving his power attack on all the time, instead of only when he needed it, which is an error on the user's part, not the program's.

You missed the point of his post. He is stating that users do not bother to check their numbers and learn the rules because they think Hero Lab is an infallible rules source and won't let them do anything against the rules. Hero Lab is not being used as an extra tool, it is being used as the ONLY rules source thinking that it won't let them do something against the rules.

Solution: Make huge disclaimer when they open (and/or purchase) the program that it is not a substitute for the rules, is not a Paizo product, and that user errors make cause errors in the character sheet.

Aaron "Lawful G" Beal wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

2) Rules arguments

This tends to happen more at Conventions (but not in this last year, as I don't allow HeroLab at my PFS tables) but the rate of rules arguments during a session is greater when people are tabbing through HeroLab. This relates to Rules Atrophy. When people have a number in front of them, on their screen, and I'm telling them that's wrong, they're more likely to argue the point and eat up game time. They feel empowered by the "evidence" in front of them. It takes away the authority of being GM. By simply not allowing HeroLab at the table I eliminate that unneeded stress.
Again, this empowerment is a positive in my book. Perhaps you're always correct when you try to set your players straight, but every DM is not you. I get many many bug reports from players and DMs that think HL is doing something wrong, only for me to point them at a rule they had forgotten. Every DM is not always right and the program can help point that out to their players. In my opinion, GM authority is less of a concern than everyone understanding the rules by which they play. If the GM doesn't like the way the official rules go, they are free to negotiate with their players how things will work at their table (although not in PFS, obviously) but the player has to be made aware of the deviation first.

Again, this is not about empowerment, and again you are missing the point.

The point here is that the players believe Hero Lab is the rules source and that Hero Lab is 100% without fail accurate. As a result they argue with the GM pointing to HERO LAB as the source and not the RULE BOOK as the source. Even when the GM points to the RULE BOOK the Hero Lab user argues that Hero Lab is a Paizo product and therefore must be right.

Again, the problem is the perception of your user base.

The reality is that Hero Lab is not a Paizo product and is only as accurate as the user using it. User errors can make anything inaccurate.

Solution: Make huge disclaimer when they open (and/or purchase) the program that it is not a substitute for the rules, is not a Paizo product, and that user errors make cause errors in the character sheet.

Aaron "Lawful G" Beal wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

3) Time killer

The game that made me finally put my foot down involved a Mystic Theurge who spent more time tabbing through HeroLab than he actually spent doing his turns (and during a fast paced PFS Special). He had so many circumstantial modifiers that he'd have to edit or whatever during game that I just kept telling him he'd have to delay until he figured out what he was doing. In regular play I still see this happen. Players waste their turns tabbing this or that while others get frustrated at the slowdown. Being indecisive is already a prevalent problem. Adding clicking and scrolling to that is too much.

One, it sounds like he might have not been used to the character or used to using HL, if navigating around to click on things truly took him so long.

Two, it could have had something to do with the fact that Mystic Theurge is a class we can't support very well in HL. He may have been employing a variety of workarounds that could prove clunkier than usual.

Three, I think keeping his character accurate and taking advantage of whatever bonuses he should be getting is important enough to give him and others a break on the time pressure.

I have little comment on this, this is more of a program issue that I can understand as a work in progress.

Aaron "Lawful G" Beal wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

4) "I own HeroLab"

This literally happened today. A player stated she'd spent $150 on HeroLab packages and wanted to bring a new character to game next week. With the aid of my VC we diplomatically tried to tell her HeroLab wasn't Paizo, and that she'd have to own the sources she was planning on using. But it's not a discussion that usually goes well. You know that look people give you when they're clearly not believing what you're telling them? Yeah. That's the sort of look these players all share. It creates tension and usually means they're completely turned off to PFS. It creates an enemy rather than an ally.
I don't think we've ever implied that Hero Lab was owned or operated by paizo, or that it was a replacement for owning the required sources for PFS. In fact, our Character Creation Stations at the various Cons we attend all have signs saying "you still need the legal source handy". I do know that we can't control how people react to you explaining that to them. Sorry that you're in a difficult position here, but I feel laying the blame at the feet of our product is unfair.

And this is the heart of the matter, you take no responsibility for how your user base is using your product.

Instead of saying, 'Yup, how our users are claiming that Hero Lab is 100% accurate or a rules source or even a Paizo product is an issue, and that is a problem we will address.', you instead deflect the blame onto the user base.

The problem with that is, this is not an isolated incident. I've heard it from many Hero Lab users, not just one. In most cases it takes hours of argument across multiple gaming sessions with each user to prove why Hero Lab is not 100% accurate (usually due to user error) before they get it.

Solution: Again, the simplest solution is a big banner disclaimer when they open the program. Then at least those of us that try to refute that Hero Lab is not a Paizo product would have something to point to.

PLEASE, educate your user base. It should not be the GMs job to educate your user base as to the limitations of your program (user error, not a substitute for a rules source, not a Paizo product).

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Very excellent summary Nefreet!

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