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Gallo's page

593 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists.

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The Raven Black wrote:

BTW statistics based on race or ethnic group are illegal in France

I think both are a reaction against the racial paradigm used by Nazis when they occupied France

I think there is also an element of France not wanting to acknowledge its indigenous ethnic minorities as being anything other than French. For example, the Basques, Bretons, Alsatians, Corsicans, Catalans, Flemings, Occitans etc. The government's policies towards those groups and the teaching of their languages has not been conducive towards their maintaining their cultural identity.

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If you have a party of 5, irrespective of how many critters the druid summons, there should be no need for each player to take 1-2 minutes for their turns. What are they doing while other players are having their turn, let alone the time the DM takes to run the monsters? That is 4-8 minutes, plus DM time, for them to think about their next turn.

If they are getting distracted and talking then the best thing you can do is cut their time. Either use a timer of some kind or just say "Druid Dave is unsure of what to do - he is delaying" or "Druid Dave is taking too long to decide what he is doing, that is a full round action gone". The players will get the idea and everything will speed up. Druid Dave might get grumpy but I bet the other players will be pleased.

My group uses a portable whiteboard for an initiative chart so it is easy to tell when each player's turn is coming up.

As for the problems of the summoning. Simply tell the druid that he can only summon creatures that he has pre-prepared stat blocks for in front of him - either printed out or on index cards. If her can't be bothered spending the time to prepare his character outside of game time then he should not be allowed to slow down the game and waste everyone else's time.

I fully agree with other suggestions above like only allowing one summoned creature at a time or limiting the "deployment pattern" for any multiple summons.

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Diminuendo wrote:
I really hope this is the year AusPost goes bankrupt, so we can get private postal services in

I run an online toy and game store. If you think Australia Post are bad, try dealing with some of the private courier companies. AP has its issues but they are generally the best of a bad bunch.

The main problem I find is with the delivery of parcels I send out. Nowadays most of the parcel delivery drivers are contractors who get paid per delivery - an item that they card for collection at a post office does not count. If a delivery address is out of their way they often don't even bother to try to deliver it or don't spend the few seconds it takes to write a "sorry we missed you card".

My advice:

- have items addressed to your work address (admittedly not always an option) or someone you know will be home.

- if an item arrives damaged take a photo of it in the letter box, or better still video the process of getting it from your letter box all the way through opening it.

- take the item and video to an Australia Post shop (not a AP sales agent like many local post offices are nowadays) and kick up a stink (in a polite but firm way).

- use the Ombudsman as suggested above

- ringing AP over the phone is a process guaranteed to drive you mad. It seems they have internal rules that dictate you must be transferred to at least three different areas whenever you call. I push over $50k of business to them each year and I still get a runaround whenever I have an issue.

If you purchase using Paypal (unfortunately not an option with Paizo), immediately raise a dispute with Paypal and email the sender for a replacement. Include lots of photos to both parties. Paypal invariably refund your money and it is up to the seller to provide it was sent properly.

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Retired Diviner (Scryer) Wizard, now Expert (Profession:merchant)

former SIGINTer, now toy and game store owner.

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Gol Zayvian wrote:
Master of Shadows wrote:

What I don't understand is why Paizo keeps allowing this argument to crop up from time to time. apparently someone somewhere in their organization gets his jollies off by watching these threads explode with the nerd rage of an atomic bomb. Otherwise they would make the simple adjustments to the sneak attack rules that would immediately clarify the intent so that it is impossible to misunderstand. and they could do it without overly expanding their ever precious word count.
This is the nail being struck soundly on the head.

Using an alias to agree with your own post is really, really lame.

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Chromnos wrote:
Can we please have a game developer put this to bed?

They are probably too busy rolling on the ground laughing or banging their heads against a hard surface.

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Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Just checking in, has anyone won the thread?

I think we are looking into forming an International Panel of Experts to consider both sides of the "win conspiracy". But first we need to have a committee to review the currently available evidence to see whether we can pre-bunk the predicted outcome lest debate get caught up in a pointless round of de-bunking and, in some extreme cases, re-bunking.

And trust me, it is humanity who loses when things degenerate into re-bunking of the debunking, particularly where the bunkified issue should clearly have just been pre-bunked..

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JohnLocke wrote:
For starters, no-one on "your side" is asking for incontrovertible proof because they know there isn't any. And that lack is what kills your narrative cold.

So you keep saying despite plenty of evidence to the contrary. Putin and co aren't stupid. They aren't going to be overt in their support. At least not yet. Bit by bit, deniable, unprovable. When evidence does point towards clear involvement we get things like "oh, silly them, they accidentally crossed the border". It's the same playbook that plenty of countries, the US included, have used over the years. If Russia wasn't supporting the separatists their cause would have shrivelled up and faded away not long after it surfaced.

For many years I closely followed East Timor and the Indonesian annexation. Similar tactics were used by the Indonesians - "we're not involved", "it's just patriots fighting against those communists who took over power in East Timor" (not that they were communists), to "we only have volunteers there" up to "our troops were invited in by the rightful leaders of the country" and so on. Despite evidence to the contrary (and a fair amount of turning a blind eye by the west). Back in 1975 there wasn't anywhere near the same degree of coverage of the issue compared to what there is of the Ukraine - yet the truth of Indonesian involvement got out easily enough - Indonesian protestations to the contrary and Western indifference and/or connivance notwithstanding. But with the amount of coverage of the Ukraine from the MSM, amateur bloggers, citizen journalists, UN reports, aid groups, even utterances by groups of mothers of Russian servicemen and so on, the overall picture is not hard to gauge - even if the specific details are less clear.

JohnLocke wrote:

I did a search on a Canadian "news" magazine's website re: Putin and it came up with this:

Link here

Look at the titles of the articles, the pictures used. Read the articles and all you'll find are emotional appeals to stop "evil" and "murder" and spend more on military pursuits. No hard facts, no pictures of the Russian military in action, no interrupted radio chatter, zilch.

Poor Canadian MSM. Apparently they don't have a newsfeed coming out of CSE.

JohnLocke wrote:
Look, I'm asking you to THINK. How can any reasonable dialogue be held if s%&! like this is what's feeding the average person's mind? Is it feeding yours? Is this where your opinion is being formed? Not Maclean's specifically of course (God, I hope not...) but one of the dozens of other media outlets putting out the same crap over and again, hoping it will stick?

What is it with capitals? Is it supposed to MAKE ME ALL OF A SUDDEN COMPLETELY CHANGE MY MIND? Hmm, apparently not. Nice try though.

Compared to some of the crap that people like Vlad are quoting then it's as much a question of who wins a race to the bottom as anything else.

JohnLocke wrote:
These people - the western governments and their tame media - are trying to direct you into war with Russia. Think about that, about how insane that is. Put aside your hatred and your news stories telling you how weak Russia is and think about that. Look how quick everyone was to accuse Russia and the rebels of shooting down MH 17. Now - silence. No black box recordings released, no radar logs, nothing. How many invasions have been alleged? How many thousands of troops does Russia have staged at the border? Incontrovertible proof is required because the stakes are very high. War with Russia would be serious business, perhaps the end of our civilization.

I don't think there is much chance of me getting into a war with Russia. I completely demobilised my military capabilities years ago when I left the army. My country's current PM, well he's another matter. But I guess he figures playing the big man from 10,000 miles away will make him look good in the eyes of the 50.5% of the population stupid enough to vote for him and his bunch of lying, class warfare warrior, neo-con halfwits. See, I can be left wing and still lean towards supporting the Ukraine over the separatists and Russia. What a crazy world we live in.

JohnLocke wrote:
They're all the same lies, told by the same people. I've already agreed that Russia must be providing support and intel - and no-one has been able to prove more. You sure haven't. As for pulling a Vlad - I'm honoured. He's provided news reports and information of far greater relevance than anything you've put forward.

I'm not here to match Vlad news report for news report. I just like pulling him up for his oft dodgy sources, inconsistency, contradictions and, most of all, his palpable longing for the war to turn into full blown conflict.

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JohnLocke wrote:
Gallo wrote:
JohnLocke wrote:

I've actually said I believe Russia is providing aid - I just can't prove it. So you've either a short memory or a desire to frame my comments for your own purposes, which you've criticized others for in the past. Add that to your prevailing argument style of attempting to create false equivalence and one begins to wonder if you aren't simply reacting against what you consider anti-American criticism.

Russian troops and tanks fighting alongside rebels in Ukraine? Russian artillery strikes from across the border? Give me a break. And some evidence.

I suspect not even the sight of Russian tanks driven by Russian soldiers waving Russian flags driving through the centre of Kiev would be enough proof of Russian involvement for some of you.

Are you claiming that "some of us" are overlooking evidence that exists right now? Or was that just a cheeky comment, alleging a lack of critical thought on the part of some of the commentators here?

I like to think I'm open minded and a realist; so any evidence you think we need to see is something I'd appreciate having brought to my attention.

Heaven forbid that some people in this thread are showing a lack of critical thought. There is plenty of evidence, you just choose to ignore it and cite your own evidence to support your position. Apparently when certain media supports your case then they are reliable, but if they don't they are Western stooges of the supposed Nazi Ukrainian regime.

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Vlad Koroboff wrote:
Gallo wrote:

Every time I read one of your posts

Vlad Koroboff wrote:

In other news,yesterday's battle near Shakhtersk was GLORIOUS.

Sometimes when i read your posts i can't understand how you finished elementary school.You can't even read.

Or maybe you think that battle of this proportion,with artillery used on both sides can possibly have the city it happens IN standing.

Umm…… who's the one who can't read? Please point out where in my post I made any reference at all to that particular battle and where it was? I guess you are just projecting aspects of your own education when you try to make claims about mine.

Vlad Koroboff wrote:
Gallo wrote:
There is nothing glorious at all about war.
That's your opinion.I was raised differently.

Obviously. Have you ever been in a conflict zone and seen it firsthand? I have - mass graves, bullet marks on church walls where people were lined up and murdered, entire communities burnt to the ground. And that was a low level conflict. Factor in the scale of fighting in the Ukraine and the types of weaponry and no sane person could ever see war as glorious.

Vlad Koroboff wrote:
Gallo wrote:
You think
Are you some kind of telepath?Because it's kinda not working.
Vlad Koroboff wrote:
Gallo wrote:
Russia = good, Ukraine = bad
Nnnnever said that.

Well, dozens of your posts would suggest otherwise. I don't need to be a telepath to understand the common tone throughout your posts in this thread.

Vlad Koroboff wrote:
Gallo wrote:
Western media = bad, your own special sources = good.
My own?I do not own news sources.I use what's available,but i'm good at searching beyond first page of yahoo or whatever.

Here is another common aspect of all your posts. You quite happily respond to a comment someone makes but conveniently twist what the person says it make them appear inconsistent or wrong.

My saying "your own special sources" is not saying you own sources. See what you have done there? You have been quite open in previous posts about your own sources "on the ground" and how you don't rely on the MSM for your information. So it is ok for you to refer to your "own sources", but as soon as someone refers to your "own sources" you try to deftly twist it into "own[ing] news sources". Not deft enough though as it stands out for what it is.

Vlad Koroboff wrote:
Are you some kind of paladin?

No. I'm an atheist. Roy is more my style. I guess that would make you Belkar without any of his endearing attributes.

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Vlad Koroboff wrote:
Aranna wrote:


They can track cell phone and credit card usage. And the terrorists are using them.

SOMEONE is using them.

Also,check your facts.Rebels are not terrorists by definition.They do not use fear as a weapon.
They use weapon as a weapon!

In other news,yesterday's battle near Shakhtersk was GLORIOUS.
Reports upwards from 200 tanks and APCs used from both sides.
City,somehow,still there.

Every time I read one of your posts I think you can't stoop any lower, but with this one you have managed to do so.

The definition of terrorism does not revolve around whether a group uses fear or not as a "weapon".

There is nothing glorious about large bodies of troops fighting in an area where thousands of innocent civilians live. There is nothing glorious about many of those troops dying. There is nothing glorious at all about war.

You sit there at your computer watching what is going on and then jumping on this forum to denigrate the dead, defend the indefensible, provide commentary of warfare like some armchair sports commentator. All you are doing is getting your rocks off on what to you is just a game at best and a real-time snuff movie at worst.

We get it. You think Russia = good, Ukraine = bad. Western media = bad, your own special sources = good. Soldiers dying = good, 290 civilians dying from a missile strike = who cares.

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Zhayne wrote:

Well, this could easily become an IC thing ... since this guy is taking more than his share, and not helping the rest of the team out, the other PCs could just say 'We're tired of your crap. Get lost' to the offending PC.

"Because our characters have gotten tired of this nonsense, and throwing you out is what our characters would do."

Historically groups that were kind of similar to adventuring parties - pirates, mercenary companies and the like - had very strict rules about how loot was divided up.

Breaches of the rules were strictly dealt with. Getting thrown out would be the mild end of the punishment spectrum.

One way of dealing with it in game is the next time the offending character is in trouble in a fight the rest of the party declare they are spending a round looting. Unless the player is completely thick it should only take one or two occurrences before the message sinks in.

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Act I, Scene I

Scene Somewhere in Golarion

Cast Charles the Cleric 1 and Wanda the Wizard 3 / Cler 1

Just before dawn

Charles and Wanda kneel, heads bowed in prayer

Charles: O Mighty Saranrae! Please bestow your blessings on me so I can serve in your name.

Saranrae: Certainly, my devoted follower. What shall it be today?

Charles: A Bless and a Command O holy one!

Saranrae: Certainly. Sure you don't want a Cure Light Wounds?

Charles: No thank you. As a Pathfinder Cleric I can convert a spell into a cure spell of equal power.

Saranrae: Slaps forehead Silly me. Got muddled up after bestowing my divine graces on a bunch of 2ed hold-overs.

Charles: Now that you mention it o mighty one. Any chance of a Cure Moderate Wounds? You know, as a special treat? We're smiting some pretty heavy duty evil critters in your name today.

Saranrae: Alas, as I have told you every morning for the last Me-knows-how-long, you are not yet spiritually powerful enough to handle such powerful spells. You are simply not sufficiently well versed to manifest or handle such powerful divine magic. CLW or nothing today.

Charles: Oh well. Never hurts to ask.


Wanda: Oh might Saranrae, please bestow upon me....... etc etc

Saranrae: You aren't going to ask me for Cure Moderate Wounds today are you. Charles does it every dawn and I am getting really close to smiting his irritating a##.

Wanda: No need, o holy one. I'll just convert my Wizardly Glitterdust into a CMW if need be. It's really weird, even though I am not in any way powerful enough to cast such powerful divine magic, I apparently can. And you, in your infallible wisdom have pointed that out to me that you could not even grant such divine magic to me as I am too lowly a cleric to handle such power. Yet, it just so happens - it's actually really funny how it works - because I am moderately proficient in arcane magic I can actually cast CMW. It doesn't make sense, but who am I to argue......

Saranrae: !?!

End Act I, Scene I

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shallowsoul wrote:
I can imagine the devs crowded around one of their member's desk and laughing their holes off at the way some of this is interpreted.

I reckon they have a whiteboard in the corner where they keep score of how many times the same issues come up (flurry, weapon damage size increases, etc) and another one for "I can't believe anyone even asked this question".

I suspect it is next to the list of "FAQ requests we refuse to even consider on the grounds of simple common sense". When the list gets too long they then let SKR loose with one of his brilliant and refreshingly direct posts ;-)

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JohnLocke wrote:
Usagi Yojimbo wrote:
JohnLocke wrote:
Usagi Yojimbo wrote:
JohnLocke wrote:

And, just for your information, Israel does have SSBN's. You must have missed the memo on that one! Just another sign of your ignorance.

You might want to read the article you quoted there, big guy. It says the exact opposite of what you claim. Gallo isn't the one speaking from ignorance.


Could you elaborate? The article clearly states that Israel does indeed have submarines, and that experts agree they are used as nuclear weapons platforms. Sure, they are diesel, not nuclear' but still....

The Dolphin is a diesel-electric boat, an SS or an SSK if you are feeling fancy. It can certainly launch cruise missiles- SLCMs.

It is not, however, a boomer like a US or Russian Federation SSBN. it is not nuclear powered and cannot launch ICBMs (well, SLBMs). They are different things.

SLBM are the ones that can hit anywhere on Earth from pretty much any launch point and can carry multiple warheads with megaton yields. SLCM vary widely, but I've never heard a quoted range greater than 1500 miles and 300 and less is more likely. Smaller warhead, too.

That being said, I don't want to be shot at with either one.

I do concede that what Israel possesses are not SSBN's - my apologies to everyone (Gallo in particular) for the factual error.

Your gracious apology is graciously accepted. I think a couple of us, myself included, have gone a bit far with some of our comments :)

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Vlad Koroboff wrote:

Gallo wrote:

You mean like Russia did in 1944

No,in 44 there was collective responsibility for numerous(thousands!)acts of treason.

Now it's squatting.
Surely even you can see the difference.

So the Russians deport the entire population due to the actions of a minority, leading to the deaths of thousands of Tartars, men, women and children. Which you think is acceptable. Then when they are finally allowed to return many years later you then consider them to be squatting. Really?

And if the Tartars deserved to be deported then by your same twisted logic, every Russian, Ukrainian, Moldovan, Cossack and pretty much every other ethnic group in the former Soviet Union should have been deported to Uzbekistan and beyond because lots of men from those groups served in the German Army. Kind of throws a spanner in your twisted narrative doesn't it.

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Vlad Koroboff wrote:
ulgulanoth wrote:
Well there go the Tatars

Oh,seven thousand members of radical islamic organization,"which was mainly active in education and politics"(c)left Crimea and said organization's cell was effectively disbanded?

That's a shame(and this is sarcasm).
Problem is,of course,that they didn't return to Turkey.From what i heard,now they are based somewhere around Lvov.
But,this is Ukrainian problem now,and possibly Polish.Not Russian.

So tell us, why should they go to Turkey (is this some bizarre reference to the fact that the Crimea was once an Ottoman vassal)? And, no they are still a Russian problem as their traditional homeland is the Crimea - which as you have been making abundantly clear is apparently Russian. So the Russian authorities can't mistreat them and steal their land to the point where some leave and then you claim it is no longer a Russian problem. Though given what happened in 1944, the Russian authorities have form.......

And while we are at it, let's have some sources for your "7000 radical Islamists".

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Vlad Koroboff wrote:
Gallo wrote:

So you are sad you don't get to see people getting killed.
Vlad Koroboff wrote:

Deployment,logistics,C3,reliability of new tech,and a few of my favorite units.

In the immortal words of the emperor...

I saw plenty of people killed in Odessa and Mariupol,thanks.

Yet you still want the Russian and Ukrainian militaries to fight..... Did you see the deaths firsthand or just watch them on tv (or via your questionably internet research talents)? Have you ever served in a conflict zone and seen the effects firsthand? I have, it's not pretty. War is not a game, yet you seem to be desperate for the situation to deteriorate to the point of all-out war. Why is that so? Do you like watching people die? Or you don't care how many die as long as you can see the equipment in action. You certainly like to keep score, like some perverse football game, with your regular updates of how many people have been killed so far. If war does break out you'll get more than you can track of.

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Vlad Koroboff wrote:
Gallo wrote:

What exactly are you sad about?

That i don't get to see russian military in action,duh.

Fight between russian and ukrainian military isn't possible.

So you are sad you don't get to see people getting killed. You really are a pathetic individual.

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Vlad Koroboff wrote:
ulgulanoth wrote:
And then look at what Russia did to every country under its control or sphere of influence just after

You mean,rebuild from COMPLETE destruction and industrialize Ukraine to the point that even now TWO western rebellious provinces account for something like 25%GDP,directly or indirectly?

Should we,maybe,talk about Kazakhstan or Belarus?
And people ask why these rebellions happen.

I'm sure the millions of Ukrainians who died in the 30s courtesy of forced collectivisation, state sanctioned mass killings, withholding of food supplies, medicine and the like would disagree with what Russia has done for the Ukraine......

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Vlad Koroboff wrote:
Gallo wrote:
Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, the EU


Only UN matters.Others have the reputation of selling out.

So apparently only the UN is a reliable source of information, yet you'll happily quote unreliable media sources, discount reliable ones and basically ignore anything that doesn't support your position, up to and including statements by Russian soldiers in the Crimea that they are Russian soldiers in the Crimea. If only the UN matters, presumably in terms of what can be considered reliable, accurate and impartial, what does that say about all the arguments you have been presenting?

Vlad Koroboff wrote:

NATO in last two decades used everything in it's arsenal short of nukes against targets both civilian and military.
Might makes right,this is how world works.

The difference is any actions by NATO have been authorised by UN resolutions and the like. Russia's weren't. Nor does NATO deliberately target civilians. Russia and its proxies do.

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Thomas LeBlanc wrote:

I blame the Albanians. They were moving into Serbian lands unlawfully. A few of the Albanians went so far as to kill off Serbian families for their land, Serbians retaliated, Albanians retaliated, and so on.

I was there soon after NATO moved in. I liked dealing with the Serbians, they were mostly polite, but some were pissed off they were stopped. The Albanians reminded me of entitled children. Most we dealt with were pissed that NATO did not kill off a bunch of Serbians and felt they deserved land in exchange, never mind the deaths on either side.

You could always tell the difference when approaching the villages. Serbian ones were mostly free of refuse. On the other hand, you would see burning piles of trash on the roads at Albanian villages. Made a difference in which group the NATO forces hired as well. Albanian food workers were often the cause of food hygiene problems and they did a poor job with the laundry.

Given the Albanians have centuries of being mistreated and suppressed by the Serbs, I fail to see how they are to blame. Self-detemination is an accepted right. A lot of misinformation was spread in Serbia, Kosovo and elsewhere in the lead up to the fighting in 1998. But when the fighting started it was Serbs responsible for the first massacres of civilians, followed up by further atrocities on both sides.

So the Albanians didn't do a good job with your laundry. Way to trivialise an issue with a petty first world problem. Try being an Albanian under the control of the Serbs, then you'll know what problems are.

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Sissyl wrote:
Yes, well, as I said, meatrace set a standard. Let's see how he matches up to it himself. After all, if he can't quote sources, meaning links, where unquestionable sources clearly support his claims, it's all meaningless, and he's trying to sell something he has no idea about.

And the prize for passive aggressive nonsense goes to…….

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Andrew R wrote:
Wealth inequality is better fixed by making more opportunity for the lower end than punishing the upper end and personal accountability must be part of it.

What are these opportunities? Current economic and social thinking of the right does not really talk about creating opportunities. You get talk of the nebulous trickle down effect which somehow allows the poor to get some kind of benefit as the rich get richer. "Personal accountability" suggests the poor are poor because they have not done anything about being not poor.

Here in Australia the new conservative government is going hell for leather to get rid of "onerous" hinderances to business. Red tape and green tape are all evil as they slow down business's ability to operate and grow. Nevermind a lot of this "tape" is there because without it in the past business had happily screwed the environment *, mistreated workers and basically did whatever they want to make a buck and bugger any side effects that came out of increasing their bank balance. One goal of the anti-red tapers is to lower wages, reduce penalty rates, remove various standard conditions relating to health and safety and the like - so business wants to make the "lower end" poorer all in the name of "increased productivity" or various other euphemisms for "reduce costs, increase profits".

Much of the "upper end" doesn't want the "lower end" to become wealthier. Much of the upper end doesn't give the proverbial flying $#@# about the lower end - provided that the lower end exists to do all the crappy jobs the upper end don't want to think about. Those jobs, that is, that have not been outsourced to countries whose lower end is even worse off.

The group in the middle - the middle class - in certain western countries has been progressively getting smaller. Some are luckily now "upper" but most would now be categorised as "lower". Yet other countries, for example those horrible high taxing social democrats in Scandinavia have a large middle class and the lot of the poor is better in a large part because of government activities (financed in part through higher taxation rates), not solely because of some nebulous opportunity creation on the part of the private sector.

* Side note on environment. I'm not a fan of everything Greenpeace does - Paul Watson of Sea Shepherd fame humorously calls them the Avon ladies of the environmental movement. But without environmental groups, of which Greenpeace is very prominent, our world would be a much worse place, irrespective of whether you believe in things like anthropomorphic climate change or not. Remember the 1952 London Fog that killed over 10,000 people, ongoing problems of toxins spewed in to the sea at Minamata in Japan or countless other examples of unchecked pollution by business? In a large part they were forced to clean up their ways due to campaigns and pressure by environmental groups. You may have your reasons for disliking them but their work has improved your quality of life.

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Tirisfal wrote:

Dude. Tax isn't that hard. I work off a budget, and I just imagine a buffer between the subtotal and the total when I'm shopping. Simple. It's not a "random" amount - I'd say if you're planning on visiting a place, checking out the local sales tax is something you should plan into your budget :P

As someone else has already posted, tax can't be uniformed because not all cities/states have the same fiscal needs, so listing the "actual price" {read: post-tax price} would cost a LOT of money. Every restaurant menu, every drive-thru, every piece of retail shop signage, etc in every city would have to be DIFFERENT. Let me tell you with my decade of retail experience, what you're asking is ludicrously time consuming. By setting one pre-tax price, we can save a bit of time and money (driving prices down for you, the consumer) by uniforming said signage and menus, and letting YOU do the post-tax math for yourself.

Why would it be difficult? Accounting software and point of sale technology can easily accommodate it - just put the price with tax-added on your price tags.

Before we got the GST (Goods and Services Tax - like the VAT in the UK and other places) in Australia in the 90s there was a wide range of different tax rates for different categories of goods and services, yet all retailers managed to display the tax inclusive price on price tags. Now when you buy something the sales docket shows the total price as well as a breakdown of the pre-tax price and the total amount of GST included.

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Regardless of one's views on the issue, at least this time around all the people of Scotland will get a say, not just a small elite.

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PsychoticWarrior wrote:
Aubrey the Malformed wrote:
The real problem with the independence campaign is that the Scottish Nationalists are trying to pretend there will be no real consequences coming from independence. There a (wrong-headed) dislike of the toffs down south but in reality the appetite for independence among the Scots is pretty shallow beyond that. They want their lives to continue as before with the relatively generous welfare spending, but the reality of independence won't really allow that. So Nationalists have tried to pretend that they can get away with independence lite - basically retaining all of the stuff of Britishness while somehow also being independent - hence the desire to retain the pound in a currency union, retain the Queen as head of state, even retain the BBC. Unfortunately, they assumed that the English would just fall in line with all of this as being "plainly" in our interests too, but it actually implies a cost upon the English taxpayer that we are pretty much unwilling to bear. Why should we? The Scots don't seem to like us and want independence. Fine, they have a strong national identity and history, I have no objection to their nationist desires if that is what they vote for. I object very strongly if I'm expected to pay for it all.

Wow. As a Canadian who has had to hear, for pretty much my whole life, how much the province of Quebec wants to separate and become its own nation, I can really sympathize with this.

I have seen 3 referendum votes on this issue alone in my lifetime (2 since I've been able to vote) and it just gets tiring. It erodes any sense of unity the country has when 20% of it wants to go its own way and yet keep all the perks the other 80% are paying for (in Canada's case it is mostly about language - 80% of the province of Quebec is french-speaking (while hold about 15% of the population) while that number drops to less than 20% across the rest of the country. Officially we are bilingual but in reality that only applies to a small portion of the population). We in Canada hear of violence towards and persecution of anglophones for something as meaningless as having the french and english wording of a shop sign being the same size (yes - this actually happened and the shop owner was fined) or Quebec's latest 'triumph' - banning "large" religious symbols from public workers (unless its a crucifix of course) this was mainly about persecution of Muslims, Hindi and Jews.

Sorry to ramble and thread jack I just thought some of the similarities in the 2 situations as noteworthy.

A major difference is that Scotland was once an independent nation so why should it not regain that independence - as Ireland did.

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Scott Betts wrote:
Gallo wrote:
Who is saying it is aberrant?
Gallo, earlier wrote:
What other industry expects the customer to directly pay part of the staff wages rather than paying the restaurant owner the full amount and having them then pay their staff properly?

So, you.

We have different views on the meaning of aberrant in this discussion.

Scott Betts wrote:
Gallo wrote:
I would expect the hairdresser's employer to pay them a reasonable wage and if the customer wants to show their appreciation by tipping then they can.

Did you read that article? Hairdressers are independent contractors. They aren't directly employed.

Again, what you expect really isn't the point. Tipping culture exists, and it's not going anywhere because most people don't see any problem with it.

No, of course I didn't read it. Was I supposed to?

Scott Betts wrote:
Gallo wrote:
All things that you would expect a professional taxi driver who cares about his/her service to do irrespective of how he is renumerated.

What the hell?

What, do you think he's going to do just those things out of the kindness of his heart? He needs money, and if he provides good quality service he expects to be tipped accordingly.

No one cares what you expect.

Take a chill pill Scott. In all your responses to other OTD discussions you manage to be eloquent, insightful and direct without resorting to boorishness. Somehow this thread seems to elicited a different tone of response.

As for taxi drivers, you think they only provide a good service in expectation of getting a tip, not out of a sense of pride in his work? So what about professions where tipping is not necessary? Are people not going to provide good service "out of the kindness of their hearts", no professional pride in doing as good as job as possible irrespective of whether someone is going to slip them a fiver afterwards?

Scott Betts wrote:
Gallo wrote:
When I visit my accountant I expect him to keep a tidy office, do my books efficiently, engage me appropriately, provide useful accounting tips, recommend things to improve my business etc. I don't tip him though.
And that's fine. We don't really have a tipping culture surrounding accountants.
Scott Betts wrote:
Gallo wrote:
Why are not all service sectors equal? Sounds very Animal Farm to me ;)
You could write academic papers on that. The fact of the matter is that many areas in the service sector feature tipping culture, and you need to be aware of that and act accordingly.

I am fully aware of the tipping culture in the US and abide by it whenever I am there. I just think it is an inequitable and inconsistent system that applies to sectors where the employees by and large have limited power (in an industrial relations sense). I know I am not going to change your mind, nor is that my intention. I will however try to refrain from using italics and bold …...

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Scott Betts wrote:
Gallo wrote:
I don't really care whether it is uncommon or not. The fact that other service sectors have their own renumeration system does not make the restaurant sector's system (or the other sectors' for that matter) optimal or fair.
No, but it does dispel the notion that tipping culture is somehow limited to the "aberrant" restaurant sector.

Who is saying it is aberrant?

Scott Betts wrote:
Gallo wrote:
Does an employee hairdresser get $x per type of haircut/styling etc and then get tipped on top? Or do they get a low hourly rate and then tips on top. If it is the former the boss also determines who gets which client so potentially the boss can restrict/control the employee's takings above and beyond what they get from tips? If the latter, at least they get a certain level of renumeration even if business is slow.
You can read this description of hair stylist pay if you're curious as to how it typically works.

I would expect the hairdresser's employer to pay them a reasonable wage and if the customer wants to show their appreciation by tipping then they can.

Scott Betts wrote:
Gallo wrote:
Taxis - it is irrelevant whether the driver owns the licence or rents the vehicle. The fare system should be set to such a level that a driver can earn a decent wage by doing their job. At least with a waiter you can differentiate their quality of service, and determine a tip, on a range of things - speed of service, manners, providing informed comments about items on the menu etc. What does a taxi driver do to differentiate? Get you to your destination by the best route (should be a given), chat or not chat to you about how [insert posting team here] went on the weekend, or my favourite - not listening to right-wing loony radio shock jocks on the radio.
Plenty of things - keeping a comfortable car, driving efficiently and safely, engaging the passengers appropriately, providing helpful tips or other information to visitors, recommending destinations, accommodating requests, handling baggage, etc.

All things that you would expect a professional taxi driver who cares about his/her service to do irrespective of how he is renumerated. And if I have a driver who is particularly pleasant or helpful then I'll voluntarily tip them.

When I visit my accountant I expect him to keep a tidy office, do my books efficiently, engage me appropriately, provide useful accounting tips, recommend things to improve my business etc. I don't tip him though.

Why are not all service sectors equal? Sounds very Animal Farm to me ;)

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MagusJanus wrote:
Gallo wrote:
And why does it appear that only low paid sectors use the system?
I believe you just answered your own question.

I didn't know how to put in a tag for a rhetorical question ;)

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The Thing from Beyond the Edge wrote:
Except that tipping is not unseemly, exploitative, and mean. That is just making something up and pretending it is real so as to downgrade something you don't like. Pretty silly.

Not when you come from a culture where tipping is only considered an option if service is particularly good. In Australia we have wage rates and the like that pay wait staff reasonable wages so that tipping is not a necessity. What other industry expects the customer to directly pay part of the staff wages rather than paying the restaurant owner the full amount and having them then pay their staff properly?

I understand why tipping is required in the US (and do it when I go there), but I still think it is because the industrial relations system is flawed, not because it is an optimal system for remunerating restaurant staff.

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Lord Snow wrote:
J. Christopher Harris wrote:
They'll BE guilty of real harm if left unchallenged and allowed to, in essence, preach in science classes. That, I think, is the value of Nye debating this guy, or anyone doing so: setting an example of confronting that nonsense when it jumps the fence to places it doesn't belong.

True, they are capable of accidental causing harm. But they certainly don't intend it.

If a dog ruined your lawn, would you say the dog is "toxic"?

Do you really think no creationists seek to cause harm with their beliefs? That their pushing creationism is not linked to broader religious issues - sex ed, abortion and the like?

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Rynjin wrote:

Is he actually using the knowledge or just reading ahead?

If he's just reading, there's no real problem. There's a lot of cool stuff in the AP books that will never show up in the campaign proper so easily spelled out.

I also think it's okay if he's using it to speed his turns up somewhat by knowing the base stats of a monster (not acting on metagame knowledge of its strengths and weaknesses, more "Well I rolled a 14 vs its AC which is...15. Okay I missed, we can go ahead.").

If he's actually cheating though...yeah you need to have a talk, that's really your only option besides booting him entirely. If he flat out lies to your face about it (as you say he probably will), he's probably not worth keeping around.

How should the player know what the AC of a monster is? It's up to the DM to determine whether an attack hits or not as only the DM knows the exact AC - there could be buffing or other amendments a player won't know about. If the DM wants to reveal an AC to the party, then that is the DM's prerogative.

If the player wants to know what stuff they missed in the AP then they need to wait until the AP is over.

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Why is it that Paladin's are Divinely Graceful 24/7, yet Swashbucklers' Lives are only Charmed 3/day?

Why not make Charmed Life a 3/day get to roll twice and choose the best roll (other than giving another bonus for actually having a high CHA instead of just taking the Extra Panache feat)?

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Googleshng wrote:

It depends a bit on what you mean by "built like a swashbuckler." I mean, if you're going off dex and neglecting str, dumping a lot of stat points into int and cha, using a rapier exclusively, and refusing to wear more than light armor, the swash is going to have better AC and do more damage... but still snap like a twig in the face of any fort save.

If you aren't arbitrarily handicapping the fighter's stats equipment though, they have better AC, do more damage until the pendulum swings up in the teens, and can generally replicate all of the swashbuckler's deeds with feats that don't have the same limits on their usage.

This rather long post becomes a side by side comparison if you make your way down to the bullet point lists. Tone's a bit over the top now that I read back over it, but I think it covers most of the bases.

Thanks. I admire anyone who has been following every post in this thread!

As an aside, I had a thought about the whole parry/riposte issue and panache/AoO cost issue. (Noting that we have a Swash 4 in the RotRL campaign I am GMing).

Given the number of builds that go Crane Style to get the once per round "miss", what if the Parry/Riposte mechanism was altered to be similar to Crane Wing/ Crane Riposte. They both have the same game effect - an attacker that would have hit you once now misses you and you potentially can attack him in return.

Something along the lines of:

Level 1:

Parry - once per round while fighting defensively, if you have at least one panache point, you can parry an attack so that it automatically misses (no dice roll, no panache cost)) You need to be defensively focussed to parry

Riposte - if you parry then you can spend one panache to riposte. This also use up an AoO.

Level 3:

While fighting normally you can spend a panache to parry. While offensively focussed you can still parry but it will cost

Level 6:

At the start of your turn, give up your lower iterative attack to have a "spare" extra parry you can use any time before the start of your next turn.You can increase your defensive capacity but at a direct cost to you offensive capacity

Parry while not fighting defensively. If you want to parry more than one per round you need to spend a panache point per extra parry

Level 9:

While fighting normally you can parry once per round for free. You are a talented swordsman and getting in a free parry every few seconds is well within your amazing skills

Level ?:

Be able to parry attacks allies provided you can reach the attacker and you meet the other conditions for parrying.You are so skilled and combat aware that you can counter multiple attackers at once.


Basically you can start off defensively and parry for free but as you go up in levels you get more options to parry - either while fighting normally or using up some of your offensive potential to boost your defences if required.

At mid levels you can boost your defense at the cost of one potential attack.

At high levels you should be able to parry and riposte virtually at will (provided you have panache).

At any level you can defend quite well with some panache in your pool but if you expend it then you will have to go on the attack to get more points to enable you to defend.

Anyway, that's my 2c worth :)

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Posted in another forum, moved here to put it in the right spot....

Swashbuckler - I really like the look of it.

Some thoughts:

1. Maybe start with panache points equal to CHA mod +2, so low level Swashbucklers have a few more tricks per day - unless, as someone suggested above, there are more ways of getting points back.

2. Given Swashbucklers are famed as much for fighting as for deeds of skill and daring, I think Swashbuckler's Edge should be granted at a lower level and a more advance version at higher levels. i.e. Derring-do at 1, Swashbuckler's Edge at 8 and then at level 15 grant a deed to spend panache points to take 20 on a skill check for some heroic acrobatics and the like.

3. As Swashbucklers were also famed for their way with the opposite sex, perhaps the skill-based deeds should be expanded to include Diplomacy and Bluff when dealing with the opposite sex and maybe also Intimidate for dealing with the same sex.

4. I think they should also get Improved Dirty Trick for free. Or maybe allow the Swashbuckler to expend one panache point to get temporary access to Improved Trip/Disarm/Reposition/Dirty Trick.

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Swashbuckler - I really like the look of it.

Some thoughts:

1. Maybe start with panache points equal to CHA mod + 2, so low level Swashbucklers have a few more tricks per day - unless, as someone suggested above, there are more ways of getting points back.

2. Given Swashbucklers are famed as much for fighting as for deeds of skill and daring, I think Swashbuckler's Edge should be granted at a lower level and a more advance version at higher levels. i.e. Derring-do at 1, Swashbuckler's Edge at 8 and then at level 15 grant a deed to spend panache points to take 20 on a skill check for some heroic acrobatics and the like.

3. As Swashbucklers were also famed for their way with the opposite sex, perhaps the skill-based deeds should be expanded to include Diplomacy and Bluff when dealing with the opposite sex and maybe also Intimidate for dealing with the same sex.

4. I think they should also get the feat Dirty Trick for free.

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DrDeth wrote:

And, before PF, in all my 40 years of playing, other than as a back-up weapon (and slings still excell at this) or for a halfing, I don't remember ANYONE playing a slinger. Not in ODD, AD&D, 3.5, 4th or any edition. Nor in C&S, T&T, Runequest, Fantasy hero or any of a dozen other FRP games. So it's not just PF, it's not even just D&D, it's FRPG's in general.

Oh, and in my miniature wargames, the sling was also inferior to the bow in every single rules-set with one exception where all ranged weapons were the same. So, it's not even a FRPG trope, it's that way in wargaming in general.

That just shows that for 40 years game designers have displayed a mixture of historical inaccuracy, ignorance and deliberate bias towards the sling.

The point someone above made about heavy crossbows potentially being faster to reload in Pathfinder than certain types of slings sums it up.

I wouldn't expect to see slings out-damaging a long bow, but historically standard slings were essentially as effective as short bows. Maybe it was slower to reload and fire accurately as a bow. But when one feat can let someone reload and fire a hand or light crossbow multiple times in a round yet slingers need two and archers get it for free then something is wrong.

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Asphere wrote:

I couldn't think of any American jokes about Americans - we need some! There are plenty of jokes about specific areas of America. I searched for some jokes about Americans but most of the ones I found were probably derived in another country. They were really funny though. I liked this one:


An American was telling one of his favorite jokes to a group of friends. "Hell is a place where the cooks are British, the waiters are French, the policemen are Germans, and the trains are run by Italians."

The lone European in the group pondered all this for a second and responded, "I can't say about the police and the trains, but you're probably right about going out to eat. A restaurant in Hell would be one where the cooks are British and the waiters are French - and the customers are all Americans."

The version I've heard is:

European heaven is: British police, French cooks, German mechanics, Swiss bureaucrats and Italian lovers.

European hell is: British cooks, French mechanics, German police, Swiss lovers and Italian bureaucrats.

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Male Human Fighter with Greatsword
Female Human Rogue with Longbow (and a treasure fetish)
Male Dwarf Cleric (now with vampire template)
Male (probably) Elf Wizard

Then have as what is effectively the rogue's cohort:
Male Human Bard

And as the fighter's quasi-cohort:

Male Halfling Ranger (with psychopath template)

Just make sure they are played very two-dimensionally......

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Steven T. Helt wrote:

How is atheism NOT a religion? It's not a fallacy just because you don't think of it the same way as I do. Atheism is a belief regarding God and religion, specifically that there's no such thing as God. But it requires as much blind faith as any other religion. If you reject the whole conversation about how the Bible makes accurate predictions or natural science evidences an act of creation, we are still stuck perpetually at "can't prove there is a god, can't prove there isn't". You're defending your belief there is no God. You have a theology. You reject the terminology because you want to classify your faith as superior in reasoning and evidence. But you probably take a lot on faith, unless you have advanced degrees in anthropology/geology/microbiology/astrophysics AND have conclusively defeated the questions of irreducable complexity and similar questions, AND have a time machine AND saw the creation of the universe as well as that lucky lightning strike that correctly zapped the correct combination of chemicals with the right salinity on the back of the perfect crystal.

So who/what exactly do we atheists apparently worship if atheism is a religion? Atheism is not a belief in the sense that belief in a god or gods is a belief. I am an atheist because I see no proof (or need for that matter) of the existence of god(s) and no one has ever presented an argument for god's existence that makes sense or cannot easily be disproved.

What exactly do we "take on faith"? I don't have a medical degree but when my doctor tells me something about my health I'll believe him. That's not taking the doctor's word "on faith". Likewise if a physicist says something is true and their claims have been tested, peer reviewed, questioned and challenged, then why would I not believe them.

I don't need a degree in astrophysics to accept that the age of the universe is 13 billion years plus or minus. The same scientific research/processes/methods that were used to determine the age of the universe are the ones used to demonstrate why aeroplanes can fly or why an electric light goes on when you flick the switch. You can't pick and choose which science you want to accept and ignore that which goes against your religious beliefs.

If you believe the bible "makes accurate predictions" then give some examples that can be demonstrated to be true. You are the ones who claim god exists yet can give no reliable evidence to support your position. And please don't say "because it is in the bible" - it is a document written by humans who purport to have written down the words of god.

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DrDeth wrote:
Gallo wrote:
DrDeth wrote:
Gallo wrote:
And the one card in the deck that is an auto death just becomes a serious injury but not death (we currently play perma-death style so no resurrection, raise dead or reincarnation).

I’ll bet you don’t.

I’ll bet a buck right here and now, that if a PC dies the player gets to keep on playing, just by bringing in a new PC.

It’s better to just allow Raise Dead.

You obviously have a different interpretation of perma-death. Of course a player whose character dies could bring in a new character. ..

Saying that isn't permanent-death would be like arguing a person playing DDO in perma-death mode should delete the game if their character dies.

All it means is there is no way of raising a character who dies. Nothing more, nothing less.

We've got to level 16 in our current AP without a death but if someone did the player would just roll up a new character - just as someone in a different campaign would do if they didn't want their character raised.

So, since there’s no danger from dying*, and all that happens is that the campaign possibly loses a key PC, where’s the upside to this?

* and usually a advantage, as a fresh created from scratch PC is usually better than an organic PC at that level.

You might think there is no "danger" from dying, but given we have spent over three years in the campaign none of us particularly want our character to die. If one did we would obviously bring in a new character but that character would definitely not be better than the dead one nor would it be as satisfying playing them. We're in Kingmaker and it has been a long journey to get to a few sessions before the final boss fight so it would be very unpleasant to die and bring in a new PC.

Losing a key PC at this stage would not be a minor thing. If it happened at a lower level then no big deal, level 16 = big deal. Sure it would be a chance to play certain classes without all the weaker lower levels - like a max level Mystic Theurge - but it's always more fun to develop and build a character from level 1.

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shallowsoul wrote:

Here's the problem.

If the magic item creation system is supposed to be held together by "GM fiat" AKA "Home brew", then the entire system itself should be in the homebrew forum and never be allowed in the general discussion.

I expect the General Discussion section to start decreasing immediately because it is full of threads where people are offering suggestions.

Now if it doesn't happen then I will start to get a fishy smell in my nostrils.

The magic item creation system is not held together by "homebrew". You just don't like the system. Many of your proposed changes are because you do not like some of the elements that are clearly spelled out in the rules - base price 50% of sale price, crafting while adventuring, etc - not because "GM Fiat" is needed to make them work. They work perfectly well as written.

The area where they drift into what can be called "GM Fiat" is custom items. This is not a flaw of the system - it is a feature explicitly built into it. This, however, does not mean the rest of the creation rules are GM Fiat.

If you have a better suggestion just start a post in the homebrew forum with a clear explanation of your own system, rather than throwing out posts basically saying the system is broken and then attacking people who say it isn't. None of the suggestions you have made to date could not be accomodated within the Pathfinder magic item creation rules. But that is the beauty of the system - you can use what you want, modify other bits, homebrew to your heart's content.

But to continually attack other posters, devs and moderators is just tendentious and childish. Some of your suggestions have some merit and provide options for someone to change how things work in their own game but many people will just ignore them because of the manner in which you express them.

In conveying a message, how you say it can be just as important as what you say...

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DarkLightHitomi wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:

Can we see the rules on item creation actually fixed or even an attempt at fixing?

The problems of the system have been pointed out so how about work from there.

I have seen questions about things, and things that need clarified, but I have yet to see things that actually need fixedthe only exception to this is a feat or ability that could theoretically make crafting free, but I believe that the entire idea is based on a false assumtion about stacking discounts, which falls under "a need for clarification" not a need for change, nor have I seen any problems posted.

So a quick summery of these problems would be nice.

Shallowsoul has created several threads recently bemoaning the fact that magic item creation in Pathfinder is broken. But for every person who thinks that the rules desperately need fixing, there are many more who are perfectly happy with the rules or that there are issues that just need clarifying.

The problem with changing the rules to match the demands/desires of the vocal few is that you would then have lots of people complaining about the changes and that the old rules were just fine.

If you don't like the rules discuss the issues with your group and houserule to your heart's content.

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Andrew R wrote:
Scott Betts wrote:
Andrew R wrote:
How do you decide who deserves the second amendment?

I'm getting pretty tired of people acting like this is nothing but liberals spitting on the second amendment. It's time you grew a halfway decent understanding of what the Constitution is and what it means.

What steps are you calling for people to do to "not allow" their guns to fall into the wrong hands?
Read the thread. I'm sick of repeating myself for your benefit.
I'm not the one trying to hold its rights from others, you try reading it. of course i get the feeling you are one of the folks that think it is outdated and you know better than those long dead men what people should and should not have.

If those "long dead men" could see what some people are trying to claim the 2nd was meant to mean I think they would wish they had spent a bit more time clarifying the wording.

And plus if protecting the broader population means that the "rights" of others are restricted n some way, then so be it. That is what life in a civilised society is all about. Or are you advocating things like no speed limits anywhere, drink driving is fine, etc etc.

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Rob Duncan wrote:

I feel very conflicted by this thread.

I've spent eight years as a LEO, four as a Constitutional law scholar and attorney, three as a professor.. most importantly, six years as a father.

My professional work revolves largely around law enforcement and firearms law (it was my seminar in law school and my mentor just finished writing the first casebook on the subject), so it would seem natural for me to go straight there.. but when I heard the news, I thought about my daughter's own school.

I've dropped her off every single day and never paid a bit of attention to how the school is locked, whether somebody needs to be "buzzed" into the building, whether or not it was easy to break into.

I reviewed the VTRP report and wrote my college's comprehensive emergency plan.. why had that never crossed my mind?

I looked over the VTRP report and came across this:

"The campus is not enclosed; anyone can walk or drive onto it. There are no guarded roads or gateways. Cars can enter on any...road entrance[], many of which are not in line of sight of each other. Pedestrians can use sidewalks or simply walk across grassy areas to get onto the campus."

This sounds like my college. It sounds like my daughter's school. It sounds a lot like Newtown.

I don't know about you, but I'm not planning to dig out my Constitutional law or firearms law textbook. I'm going to my school board and asking for better locks, better fences.

This is not the best solution, and I know that. Anybody who is /really/ determined can get through /any/ barrier or use /any/ weapon.

Locking my door and putting the alarm on my house is going to stop a casual burglary, not a serious criminal who is willing to take the risks getting in.. Same goes for schools, I suppose.

My only point is this: I need to do what I can /right now/ to try to make my home, school or workplace a little safer.

For me, that doesn't mean keeping a patrol rifle by my desk or lobbying Congress to ban high capacity magazines. It means walking around and paying attention to things I took for granted: who can get in my building? what am I doing to control access? if I needed to lock down a building, could I? how am I handling mass notification? how am I making my workspace and my daughter's school harder targets?

If you want to do something right now, go to your kid's school and look at the locks, doors, walls, fences; ask your school board to take safety seriously and fight for more funding related to safety and security measures.

Don't you find it incredibly sad that you even have to look at your child's school (or any similar location) and think in terms of how you could make it safe from someone with a gun? Or even worse how to make it a "harder target"? We are talking about a school not a wartime military target.

I think that it is appalling things have got to the point in a society where they are issues that people even have to consider. If I talk to my school about funding I want to be discussing educational issues not having to "fight" for security measures.

They aren't things we have to consider where I live. I look at my kids' new school fence (not erected for security issues) and I don't think they are safe from loonies. I think that it is now a shame I can't take them down to play on the play equipment on the weekend.

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DarkLightHitomi wrote:
Security and freedom are opposites, the more you have of one, the less you have of the other. Nothing we can do can change that, though some people may be happy with less freedom, others, not so much.

How about you come and live in Australia for a bit. We have lots of freedoms and lots of security. I don't feel the need to own a gun on the off chance some loony attacks me. I don't feel the need to keep semi-automatic weapons in the house to defend myself from an armed home invasion.

If someone were to break into my house I'd get in trouble if I shot them - proportional use of force and all that. Perhaps there are people who'd relish the opportunity to shoot someone who threatened them in some way. Personally, I think that is just sad.

Out of curiosity how many people in the US each year are shot and killed by someone legitimately defending themselves compared to how many people are accidentally killed by guns kept by someone for the purpose of legitimately defending themselves?

You and others keep going on about freedom and rights as though certain ones (ie your ones) are more important than others. Does the idea of balance enter your thinking? A balance between an individual's rights and freedoms versus the wider community's? Add in a few things like obligations (you pay tax and the government provides certain services etc) and you get a complex mix of issues that contribute to a functioning and safe society. Lots of countries don't place individual gun rights very high but still manage to be stable, safe and prosperous.

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DarkLightHitomi wrote:
2nd, I am better then most at combat. One thing about guns, is they don't require training at all to use, so most don't train, even the military has substandard training (well maybe the front-line guys, and the marines might make par) so if I win against the drill sergeants, I think I can take a few untrained whackos. Might get hurt in such a confined space with no maneuvering space but hey I honestly wouldn't hestitate.

Have you ever been in combat? No one knows until they have actually been in combat.......

And you really think guns don't require any training to use? You mean basic things like clearing stoppages correctly, putting a magazine on your weapon the right way around by touch, selecting the right setting when you flick the safety catch with your thumb, aiming, firing, etc. Nah, none of that really needs training. And that is when no one is even shooting back at you.

And you know those untrained whackos? How would you know they were untrained? And if they have guns, well - as you have claimed - they don't actually need training so technically, in your world, there is no such thing as an untrained whacko.......

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DarkLightHitomi wrote:

I agree that most people don't have the training to handle that situation, me I prefer to treat people as adults and educate/train them as opposed to treating them like babies and tell them they aren't allowed because of Bobby down the street.

I could handle it, I know this because I was a soldier, and I was better then the drill sergeants. That is a really good reason to believe myself capable of doing some good in a bad situation. Can you come up with a better reason to believe otherwise?

Better than the drill sergeants? Really? At what point did that become apparent? And in what skills? I hope you let the drill sergeants know, because when I was an instructor in my army we always appreciated being told by our trainees that they were better than us. We could just hand over the lessons to them and nip down the pub for a beer or two.......

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wraithstrike wrote:

Actually it is not pointless at all. What the book "says" is often clear. What is "means" is something different. If you want to argue that there are "twist and turns" then present them.

We are just going around and around on opposite sides of a merry-go-round. Again, the very fact that this thread even exists shows that what the book "says" is not clear and therefor it is up to us to work out what it "means". I think enough people have illustrated the "twists and turns" in the form of the logical arguments they have presented to make their particular case to not warrant further pursuit.

Malachi wrote a very well-structured post (which I don't think was at all high horse) presenting one side of the argument, other people have written well-strucutred posts arguing the opposite. None of us are defintively right, just as none of us are definitively wrong (even if the general consensus is RAW right-or-wrong, RAI is pretty clear) - until Sean or someone comes down and lays down the Paizo version of a Supreme Court ruling in an appeals case :)

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