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As the topic says, what arcane schools do you think should have been part of the remastered wizard from the get go?

I'm not asking for advice on how to make them myself. Obviously I can homebrew my own. I'm just curious about what the community, and especially Wizard mains, would have added.

I'll go first;

School of Necromancy. Given how a necromancer is such an iconic fantasy wizard,
and how a necromancer (Tar Baphon) has had such a major and lasting effect on Golarion, it seems amazing to me that there isn't a school dedicated to it.
The School of Boundary seems the closest to an undead/death magic focused wizard.

School of Extraplanar Servants. Another iconic image is that of a wizard summoning and binding or bargaining with extraplanar creatures. Again, with so many examples of fiends, genies etc being summoned to great effect in Golarion lore, it's a bit surprising there aren't schools dedicated to it.

What do you think? What schools do you think are missing? Alternatively, what schools have you come up with for your own games?

The big setting books we've seen so far (the Mwangi one and Impossible Lands) don't have that much in the way of class content, which they could have easily justified including.

Like Impossible lands had 2 archetypes and one subclass in it. So I wouldn't expect a lot in terms of "player options" in Lost Omens books.

True. I suppose a psychic specific book would be more likely to carry the class stuff but I can't see them putting one out any time soon, if ever.

... I simply do not see them pushing out an entire book that focuses on a theme that would align with what is being requested nor am I aware of any region (the OTHER way Paizo publishes books rather than by theme) in the setting that has any sort of important or dominant government or collective society of psychics and telekenetecists so that it could slot into a setting/region book. ...

IIRC Vudra is the primary 'home' of psychic power in Golarion. A book about that region could easily include psychic 'versions'/sub classes of base classes.

I feel like you answered your own question really.

You are right, in that the PF2 Kineticist is elementally focused. It draws its power from the elemental planes and as such, its power sources are tied to those planes.

There is no elemental plane of "force" or of "mind" of anything like that.

Its a lore driven decision due to the class being fundamentally and conceptually different from its 1e namesake.

The concept of telekinesis is already captured by the Psychic anyhow!

I sort of feel that if they're going fully in on the elemental thing, they should have renamed the class. Elementalist for example.

Kineticist just says 'psychic power' to me. Even if I didn't know about the old version, just the name implies psychic-ness.

A thought occured to me while trying to sort out my X-Mas game this year.
Why does the Kineticist not include the most basic 'kinesis' of all, Telekinesis?

As far as I'm aware, the ability to move things with your mind showed up in common , modern myths well before the ability to manipulate fire. I could be wrong about that, feel free to correct me.

I realise the current Kineticist is more of an Elementalist, gaining power from the elemental planes. But still, having a class called the Kineticist and not having Telekineses be part of it, seems odd to me.
Maybe they can draw power from the Astral plane (mind)?

What do you think?

I suppose thaumaturge and alchemists are the closest to "using magic inherent in items/materials" thus far.

I would like something that is more craft focused than the thaumaturge though.
I Could just reflavour the inventor as someone mentioned, but the mechanics don't really fit. for eg, would their 'magic inventions' work in an null magic field?

And they leave out the huge variaty of magic items available.

Derry Luttrell and Tony Saunders on Pathfinder Infinite have some highly-rated class expansion supplements. Their next one is Inventors+, which is supposed to include a Magitech class archetype. Not sure how closely it will match what you're looking for, but worth a look once it comes out!

Neat i'll keep an eye out for it thanks

I was wondering why, in a world as magically infused as Golarion, there doesn't seem to be anyone dedicated to improving or innovating magic items.

There are Alchemists to work on magic potions and such but no one really dedicated to developing new weapon and armour runes, magical tools or vehicles and other such wondrous things.

Is there a third party version somewhere? If so, could someone point me in their direction please? I want to add a magical Doc Brown to my NPCs and having an actual class for it would be great if my players want to play one.

Yeah, no idea how it is panning out in practice, but they were pretty adamant in the announcement stream that they wanted to avoid the 1e Medium issue where the ability to switch roles was punished by making the class underperform at every role.

It's funny, I never thought of that as a punishment. I rather enjoyed the "jack of all, master of none" aspect.

Has there been an official/canon replacement for the Medium class in Golarion?

I was rereading the Golarion wiki when I realised that the Medium was integrated into at least some of the lore, such as in Nex.

And what happened to Erasmus the iconic? Did the poor guy get erased from existance?

As the title , so far we've got :

Custodian of Groves and Gardens ; healing and field control.

Impostor in Hidden Places ; debuffs and utiliy.

Stalker in Darkened Boughs; damage (physical) and shapechanging.

Steward of Stone and Fire; aoe damage (fire).

Vanguard of Roaring Waters; position control and utility.

Witness to Ancient Battles; damage (physical) and debuffs.

I think one where general utility is the primary focus might be good.
And one for transport/travel.

And if we're thinking in thematics, a city/urban based spirit might be interesting.

What do you think?

I have been wanting a Binder type class for years. It was my favourite non standard class back in the day. So unique in mechanics and flavour.

I think I would like the Animist more if it was not a full caster.

I feel it would be more interesting if it progressed like a Summoner or Magus , with it's main class functionality coming from the Apparitions granted abilities rather than just a changing list of spells.

A bit like how the Shaman spirits from 1ed worked.

Relevant text: "You can activate a potion with an Interact action as you drink it or feed it to another creature. {Core Rulebook pg. 562}

"You usually Interact to activate an elixir as you drink it or feed it to another creature." {Core Rulebook pg. 546}

This means that if eidolons can't activate items, they can't feed people items like potions, elixirs, food, ect as they require an activation action.

Looks like there's going to be a new houserule at my table. :D

I'm going to allow someone to activate a potion/elixir as they drink it even if someone else is pouring it for them.

thanks everyone for the discussion btw

It DOES though, if they can't activate them: there is no action gain between a potion/elixir a your belt and one handed to you if that person has to activate it: it's the feeding that can gain you actions and someone with something in both hands cannot benefit from them if the eidolon can't activate the potion/elixir to feed them.

Hmm I'll have to go scour the rules again. I've always allowed someone to pour a potion into someone elses mouth, regardless if they (the target) have hands free.

That could just be something leftover in my brain from previous systems I'll admit.

" Don't do anything creative" seems to go against the general purpose of imagination gaming imo...

don't do anything game breaking might be a better way to word it. :)

Alchemical items also have activations and aren't magical :)

I know technically (consumable) is an 'activation' but that is problematic in itself.

Yes those both have the [consumable] tag :P

As for the eidolon potion dispenser, afaik nothing RAW stops this anyway. Unless you rule the eidolon can't even pick up and hand a potion to someone , which iirc doesn't count as 'using' it, they can still function as a battlefield vending machine.

For magical/alchemical consumables, they can't use them by themselves. But you can deliver a potion/elixir to an Eidolon.

Now, for non magical equipment, there's an issue in the rules. But I think people tend to allow mundane equipment as otherwise it'd break verisimilitude far too much with ridiculous questions like: Can my Eidolon open a door?

But if you don't know, ask your GM.

I am the GM so I will probably rule as common sense says to me but I was hoping they'd caught and fixed this little weirdness.

Feels weird to me that a potion won't work if it drinks by itself but will work if you feed it to them. *cue anime Ahhhh feeding scene*

I think I'll rule that they can use any mundane item (assuming correct body shape) and any magic item in their hands functions in it's mundane capacity but not magical.

I'm looking for clarification on whether Eidolons can use mundane equipment and/or magical consumables.

I know they can only wear/use magic items with the Eidolon tag BUT does that mean if they try to drink a bit of water it just pours straight through them?
Will a blanket be repelled (like a magnet) if you try to cover an Eidolon with it?

How does an Eidolon use it's skills if it can't use a mundane tool?

Has there been any official clarification?

ok thank you

I'm working on some monsters for the RPGSuperstar this year.*
And I'd like some feedback before I submit them. Can I post a link to my entry here or should I post it in the Advice forum?

Am I even allowed to post the links at all?

Thanks for any clarification in advance.

* Yes I know I'm late, I only just found out about it.

A pair of 2e Tian Xia books have been announced and are drawing on a massive cast of Asian writers to avoid snarls like the old stuff ran into.

oh? I'll have to look that up. If they expand on Minata I'll be really happy

As a speaker of Malaysian Malay, the names of Minatan island 'Atas Pulu & Rendah Pulu' feels a little off.

The grammar/structure (?) doesn't quite work in Bahasa Melayu. Which I realise isn't what Minatans speak as they are from a alien, to us, planet.

Im NOT complaining about it being there btw! I love that our part of the world is being represented. It's just that the ghost of my old BM teacher haunts me whenever I read something similar to BM. :D

Also, might I suggest that the description of Hantu be expanded to include undead because irl it does include ghosts/spirits of the unquiet dead.

Can we please get more lore, adventures and content regarding this part of Golarion? I would absolutely go nuts with joy if I saw a description of Gawai celebrations or an encounter with a Dayang Boris in an adventure!

Note: I do have one complaint though. I object to the description of headhunting as 'vile'. It is no more vile than any other aspect of war. And sarawakians are quite proud of parts of our head hunting heritage.

If an Inventor chooses a weapon normally used as a pair for their invention, does only one of the pair count as the invention?

Or do the pair count as one thing for this purpose? Would they 'share' innovations or split them between them?

Given that was one of the primary reasons for seeking the stone IRL, yes it should definitely do something to extend life beyond the normal age limit.

I don't think there will be "masses of immortal alchemists" because reaching level 20 in the first place is beyond the vast majority of people in the world, even PCs.

Limiting it to working only on the alchemist who made it also protects the Sun Orchid thing, which works on everyone.

OR make it work slightly differently, like maybe it extends life but not youth.

Some more thoughts I had reading through this thread.

What happens if the Eidolon is petrified then dismissed? By moving them far enough apart that the link breaks.
Can the Summoner then function again?

It's a pity the Fabricate spell doesn't exist any more.

That spell was fun with a craft focused mage

I think the Shifter should be it's own class with subclasses depending on what kind of creatures it shifts to.

Just as in PF1 there were variants for Elemental shifters, Fiendish shifters, Dragon shifters and Fey shifters and not just animal based ones.

How about an example that's a little less silly?

Crafting a chair from a chunk of wood.
IRL I can do that in less than a day without powertools.

Unless I want to turn it into some fancy schmancy work of art, then maybe 4 days is right.

And it's not Earn an Income, if I'm making it for myself.

It's easy enough to use the Earn an Income table to work out how long it would take to make to sell and then just use that, but then why not just use those rules for all crafting?

Probably about the same way people got along with germans and japanese after world war 3.

The more affected by germany/japan a country was, the longer the anger/resentment lasts.

BUT this is also affected by other factors like economy, culture, 'victors high' etc.

After about 10 years, Malaysians would look sideways at japanese but otherwise not really care. Koreans on the other hand, many still feel animosity even today; though others especially the younger generation completely don't care and have embraced japanese pop culture.

Germans today are still the butt of jokes about the war and it's been nearly a century; but nobody is particularly resentful of them afaik.

I'd say goblins are the butt of jokes and stereotypes for the most part but other than a few places that were badly affected during the wars, most places don't particularly care about them one way or another

Someone build the dynamite throwing guy from Fist of the North Star

Naw, the scorpion whip is a normal whip with razor blades set along it's length as far as I can tell.

A purely metal whip wouldn't be Light in bulk. I'd guess it to be similar in weight to a Great Sword.

3rd Level seems a bit high for a almost purely RP spell to me.

I really liked the PF1 version where each age category gave a different benefit.

I might bring that back in as a houserule. Not the stat boosts but something reminiscent of the flavour.

One like this https://youtu.be/8LPLFCkUH-Y

I'm thinking one of the size as in the video would have to have a Str minimum requirement to actually use.

probably Alchemist is my favourite so far. I have a thing for crafter types.

second is Ranger. as a 'generic ' adventurer type, its a great chassis.

Investigator looks really interesting, I'm looking forward to seeing what I can do with it.

Strangely, none of the casters really grab my attention, despite them usually being the ones I gravitate to in most games.

To the guys arguing about how difficult it would be to recreate Kineticists in PF2.

Someones already done it.
https://paizo.com/products/btq024xz?Legendary-Kineticists-Second-Edition

And they do a pretty good job of it too I think.

The whole point of us including an occultism wing of magic was to build in room for the occult classes from 1st edition, such as the psychic, even though we knew we weren't going to be putting them in the Core rules. We might tinker and change how some of those classes work if/when we update to 2nd edition, but turning them into a point-based system like psionics isn't something that's really on the table.

:(

Still, as long as they aren't vancian, I would probably be ok with it. Spell slots for mental power are the biggest immersion breaker for me. Something about having discrete packets of 'ammunition' just clashes so badly with the image of mental power users. I can't think of a single example in fiction of a psychic whose abilities works that way.

I dislike spell slots in general but it's too ingrained into the system to change now.

I'm hoping that psychics at least, get to be more like how casters are depicted in fiction generally, rather than relying on badly adapted idea from Jack Vance novels.

Points would be my preference. It's straight forward. To do X power use Y points. The Occultists Focus powers worked that way.

But something like the old Kineticist works as well.

Or as someone mentioned, something new using cantrips and focus points.

Also, there are a lot of things people will just KNOW without needing to roll on a Lore skill.

For example, someone in Ustalav is just going to know that the shambling half rotting figure is probably some kind of undead without needing to roll Religion.

Someone wearing fancy robes with icons all over it yelling "I call upon thee my lord!" while casting is most likely some kind of religious caster, Religious Iconography Lore would be needed if you want know which religion.

Please DON'T USE SPELL SLOTS !

The biggest disappointment I felt about PF1s version of Psychics was that they used spell slots.

I mean really, one of the biggest appeals of psionics/psychic classes was that they used a point system.

Now we've got the Focus point system maybe use that as a basis. OK so it's limited to 3 points total, but I'm sure we can come up with something creative to do with that.

thank you all for your replies. Got some good ideas in here.

I'm not worried about the players abusing the flight because it would be around the level where they'd have access to easily available flight anyway.

Also, the player who wants it really just wants a "cool headquarters" rather than a combat platform.

Thanks again, everyone!

Or more accurately, what would the minimum amount of gp value would it cost to create a flying home?

Assuming it's not done by one person alone but by hiring casters, buying materials etc.

A castle would be at the upper end of cost, I would guess, simply because it's enormous. While smaller buildings should cost less.

A discussion with a player about wanting a character who is saving/working towards getting his "dream home". Obviously I don't want to drop this into the game too early, but at the same time I don't want to leave it till the end because I'd like them to actually get to play with it.

Having them deal with annoyed rulers (how do you tax something that isn't taking up ground space?), jealous peers, etc seems like it would be fun.

I always read it as the wizard imbueing part of their own mind into the familiar.
So the animal doesn't actually get any smarter, they instead have a pseudo-mind boosting their abilities.
this is where the link between wizard and familiar comes from.
And why the familiar used to get more intelligent as the wizard leveled up.

special familiars like imps and sprites were already intelligent so the wizard didnt have to boost their minds, just establish a link.

I would like to see it focus on the weapon buffing/arcane pool abilities.

I would like to see variations based on how they buff or summon their weapon.
So standard magus uses arcane power, a mindblade that uses mental/occult power and a phantom blade type that uses spirits/divine power.

I'd like to have the Medium back, but closer to how the 3.5 Binder worked. Weird supernatural abilities and strange spirits. Something that is obviously different from other spellcasters.

The other one is the Kineticist/Psychic. I'd like them both to use the same chassis, specifically the Kineticist. With a bit of the 'feel' of the old Psionicist from old AD&D. Not the mechanics, just the feel.

Channeler like from the Wheel of Time series?
Or AetherWeaver, cos they 'weave' elemental forces?

Just popping in to say, thank you, to everyone contributing to this thread.

Thanks for the answers all

My group and I appreciate it

Never heard of Foundry before. How is it with homebrew? Easy to add?

I've been using roll20 for a while but adding custom classes and houserules is a pain in the backside in it.

So for my groups first PF2 game I thought I'd try something new and hopefully better.

So which virtual tabletops do you think work best? Especially for a group that does a lot of homebrew feats/classes/monsters etc?

I've had a look at Fantasy Grounds and Tabletop Simulator but I don't know anyone with experience with them. Are there any others I should look at?

Any advice would be appreciated!

I've actually done this for 1e. Working out a similar system for 2e right now, so tell me how you think.

I renamed all alignment damage to correspond to weapon runes, so they are now holy, unholy, axiomatic, and anarchic damage. They deal full damage to aligned creatures of the opposite alignment, no damage to aligned creatures of the same alignment, and half to everyone else.

An aligned creature is an outsider from an aligned plane, a divine caster who serves a deity from an aligned plane, or a creature descended from an aligned outsider (eg planar scions and divine sorcerers). Aligned mortals count as the same alignment as their deity or bloodline. All other creatures are considered unaligned.

Clerics and champions still have to follow edicts and anathema or lose powers as appropriate, obviously. There still won't be any serial killers getting divine magic from Shelyn, regardless of alignment system used or lack thereof.

I like it. quick and simple. Seems easy to implement.

Though I'd rename Unholy to Profane or Blasphemous instead. That way it isn't defined by being not-holy and is instead it's own thing. Like you haven't call Anarchic, Un-axiomatic.